86:48
yeah so there’s something in there
86:49
there’s something that interacts with
86:51
the physical structure of your body and
86:52
and and I would say there isn’t so
86:57
that’s the whoo-whoo version is that the
87:02
brain itself and the body the physical
87:04
so this this this spiritual self you are
87:08
merely an antenna that’s tuning into the
87:11
the the great consciousness of the
87:14
universe but why but then you have to
87:17
answer what it we know what we are made
87:20
of yes oh we know how those particles
87:22
behave and interact so so why do the
87:25
particles not in any way interact with
87:29
that stuff because we interact we don’t
87:31
if that’s true we don’t only just
87:33
interact with it we interact extremely
87:36
strongly with it we’re interacting with
87:38
it now yeah every movement I make is the
87:41
interaction between those every matter
87:43
yeah yes what everything if I move my
87:46
fingers everything that I’m doing right
87:48
is an interaction between that stuff and
87:50
me so it’s a very strong interaction
87:52
with matter but we don’t see it in all
87:55
our precision measurement well the
87:58
answer for that dancer is because it’s
88:00
not there the answer is Jesus and you
88:02
can’t measure God that may be an answer
88:06
but the point is you as we talked about
88:08
earlier with absolute space yeah if you
88:10
can’t measure it yeah it’s not there hmm
>> Can you measure consciousness?
88:14
right it’s but for whatever reason for
88:19
people there is some incredible
88:21
motivation to find a divine something or
88:27
another that’s there’s something greater
88:30
than this physical being there’s
88:32
something what do you think that is like
88:34
what is that compulsion we we’ve already
88:36
sort of talked a bit about it I think it
88:39
goes to the the hearts of this question
88:43
of what it means to be human
88:44
mmm
88:44
so I would say that being human the
88:49
answer to the it’s not the answer to the
88:53
meaning but it an answer would be we are
88:58
small finite beings right which are just
89:02
clusters of atoms as we said before
89:05
they’re very rare but we understand
89:07
roughly how they how they came to be and
89:10
we have a limited amount of time not
89:13
actually unfortunately but because of
89:16
the laws of nature that the laws of
89:18
nature forbid us to be immortal
89:20
they-they-they immortality’s ruled out
89:24
by the laws of physics but also actually
89:28
what’s interesting about if you look at
89:30
the basic physics of the universe going
89:32
from the Big Bang to where we are today
89:34
then the physics is driven by the fact
89:37
that the universe began in an extremely
89:40
ordered state so it was a very highly
89:42
ordered system and it is tending towards
89:46
a more disordered system at the moment
89:48
and that’s called the second law of
89:49
thermodynamics and it’s that basic
89:51
common-sense thing that things go to
89:54
[ __ ] basically the second law of
89:56
thermodynamics what we strongly suspect
89:59
and and I would say know is that in that
90:05
process of going from order to disorder
90:08
complexity emerges naturally for a brief
90:12
period of time so it’s a natural part of
90:15
the evolution of the universe that you
90:17
get appeared in time when there’s
90:18
complexity in the universe so stars and
90:21
planets and galaxies and life and
90:23
civilizations but they are they exist
90:26
because the universe is decaying not in
90:29
spite of the fact the universe is
90:31
decaying so our existence in that sort
90:34
of picture is necessarily finite and
90:37
necessarily time limited and it is a
90:40
remarkable thing that that complexity
90:43
has got so far that there are things in
90:45
the universe that can think and feel and
90:47
explore it and I think that is the
90:50
answer if you want an answer to the
90:51
meaning of it all it’s that that you are
90:54
part of the universe because of the way
90:57
the laws of nature work
90:58
you are allowed to exist but you’re
91:01
allowed to exist for a temporary or a
91:03
small amount of time in a possibly
91:05
infinite universe
91:07
one of the biggest mind-blowing moments
91:11
I think of my limited comprehension of
91:14
what it means to be a living being was
91:16
when I found out that carbon and all the
91:20
stuff that makes us has to come out of a
91:23
dying star yeah like there that alone
91:25
that there’s this very strange cycle of
91:28
these enormous fireballs that Forge the
91:33
material that makes Brian Cox yeah like
91:37
what that that one alone that there is
91:40
some strange loop of biological life
91:47
that comes from stars which is like the
91:51
most elemental thing that we can observe
91:53
we see these things in this can we see
91:54
the Sun in the sky it’s this
91:56
all-powerful ball of fire
91:59
yeah and that that is where the building
92:02
blocks for a person come from and then
92:04
is it so and they will be from the
92:07
carbon atoms in our body that you’re
92:08
right they all got made in styles
92:10
because there were none of it at the Big
92:12
Bang
92:13
there’s only hydrogen and helium tiny
92:15
bit of lithium to be precise but nothing
92:17
else and so it was all made in stars and
92:20
it’s probably from different styles you
92:22
know the atoms in your body they’re not
92:23
all from one star that cooks it and then
92:25
died there’ll be a mixture of stuff from
92:27
many stars in your body now and I agree
92:31
with you the what more do you want you
92:33
know when I see people who got I want
92:35
more than that I want you know it was
92:37
there must be more to it
92:39
what do you mean the the we have we have
92:41
we were the ingredients now bodies were
92:44
assembled in their hearts of long dead
92:46
stars over billions of years and have
92:48
assembled themselves spontaneously into
92:50
temporary structures that can think and
92:53
feel and explore and then those
92:55
structures will decay away again at some
92:57
point and in a very far future there’ll
92:59
be no structures left so there we are we
93:02
exist in this little window when we can
93:03
observe this magnificent universe why do
93:06
you want any more insults I think to
93:09
people I think a lot of people aren’t
93:11
aware of
93:12
all the all the information right and
93:14
then I think on top of it for some
93:16
people it’s just it’s so overwhelming
93:20
you know this this concept of 13.8
93:24
billion years of everything to get to
93:27
this point that we’re at right now it’s
93:29
so overwhelming that they want to
93:30
simplify it you want to put it into some
93:33
sort of a fable structure something
93:36
where it’s something that’s very common
93:39
and similar and familiar yeah I I agree
93:43
and and but I think that’s the the it’s
93:48
the the the journey that we go on the
93:50
real treasure I think is in that journey
93:54
of trying to face the incomprehensible
93:56
yes it’s it’s in that realization that
94:00
it’s almost it’s it’s almost impossible
94:03
to believe that we exist that’s that’s
94:08
that’s a wonderful thing yeah and I
94:11
think that that’s what I think you miss
94:12
out I think if you decide to simplify it
94:15
because you don’t want to face that you
94:17
don’t have faced the infinity that’s out
94:19
there in front of us and you don’t want
94:22
to face those stories as you said that
94:24
you look at your finger and its
94:26
ingredients was cooked in multiple stars
94:29
over billions of years that that’s a to
94:32
me a joyous and powerful thing to think
94:35
about yes and I think you’re missing out
94:37
if you don’t want to face that well I
94:39
think the distribution of information
94:41
has changed so radically over the last
94:43
couple hundred years and particularly
94:44
over the last twenty that you’re seeing
94:47
these trends now where more people are
94:49
inclined to abandon a lot of the even if
94:54
you remain religious or remain you keep
94:59
a sought or a belief in a higher power
95:02
people are more inclined to entertain
95:06
these concepts of science and to take in
95:09
the understanding of what has been
95:11
observed and documented and written
95:13
about among scholars and academics and
95:17
there’s more there’s more people
95:19
accepting that have you look at the
95:20
number of agnostic people now as opposed
95:22
to twenty thirty years ago it’s it’s
95:24
it’s rising
95:25
it’s changing and I think there’s also
95:27
because of you and because of Neil
95:30
deGrasse Tyson and you know Sean Carroll
95:33
and all these other people that are
95:34
public intellectuals that are discussing
95:35
this kind of stuff people like myself
95:37
have a far greater understanding of this
95:40
then I think people did 30 40 years ago
95:42
yeah and that trend is continuing I
95:44
think in a very good direction yeah I
95:47
mean I don’t you know what we should say
95:50
is that science we don’t know all the
95:53
answers so we don’t know where the laws
95:55
of nature came from we don’t know why
95:59
the universe began in the way that it
96:02
did if indeed it had a beginning so I
96:04
don’t know why the Big Bang was very
96:06
very highly ordered which is ultimately
96:08
as Sean Carroll actually mentioned him
96:11
often points out means right but the
96:14
whole difference the only difference
96:16
between the past in the future the
96:18
so-called arrow of time is that in the
96:20
past the universe was really ordered and
96:23
it’s getting more disordered and that’s
96:25
that that that necessary state of order
96:30
at the start of the universe which is
96:32
really the reason that we exist that’s
96:34
the reason because the universe began in
96:36
a particular form we don’t know why that
96:39
was so we will probably find out at some
96:43
point and it will be something to do
96:45
with the laws of nature but so I’m
96:47
always careful I don’t want to science
96:50
can sometimes sound arrogant right it
96:51
can sometimes sound like it’s the it’s
96:53
the discipline of saying to people while
96:55
you’re not right yeah and it’s not the
96:57
discipline of saying you’re not right
96:59
it’s saying this is what we found out
97:01
yeah so I like to say that it provides a
97:05
framework within which if you want to
97:07
philosophize or you want to do theology
97:10
or you want to you want to ask these
97:12
deep questions about why we’re here you
97:15
have to operate within that framework
97:16
because it’s just an observational
97:18
framework yes everything we’ve said is
97:20
stuff we’ve discovered it’s not stuff
97:23
that someone made up we we we you know
97:26
we understand nuclear physics we can
97:27
build nuclear reactors for example so we
97:30
understand the physics of stars so we
97:32
understand that the Stars built the
97:34
carbon oxygen and we know how they did
97:36
it and we can see it because as I said
97:38
before we can
97:39
if you look far out into the universe
97:41
you’re looking way back in time and as
97:43
you look back in time you see less
97:45
carbon and less oxygen so we have a
97:48
direct observation that in the earliest
97:50
universe there wasn’t any because we can
97:53
see it and now we see that there is some
97:55
and we know how it was made so I think
97:58
it’s so it’s important to be humble when
98:02
you’re talking about science and you’re
98:03
not saying this is the way that it is I
98:06
mean your own a sense but you know it’s
98:09
not it’s not able to answer ultimate
98:12
questions at the moment it’s not able to
98:14
answer even whether the universe had a
98:16
beginning or not we don’t even know that
98:18
and I gave a talk to him I was asked to
98:21
give a talk to some bishops in the UK
98:23
about cosmology and I said yeah that’d
98:26
be great fun and so when I gave him this
98:29
talk and at the end I said I’ve got some
98:31
questions so if the universe is eternal
98:34
and it might be it might not have had a
98:37
beginning if it’s eternal what place is
98:40
there for a creator you know that’s
98:42
that’s a good question Brian I didn’t
98:44
they didn’t have an answer of course
98:45
right an eternal creator but yeah but I
98:48
think that these it might be eternal and
98:51
we might discover that so we don’t know
98:54
at the moment but we might so I think my
98:57
point is that these other human desires
99:02
very natural to religions and natural
99:04
thing right people you see all across
99:06
the world in all different cultures but
99:08
I think that in the 21st century it
99:11
religion needs to operate within that
99:14
framework if it’s going if it’s going to
99:16
operate there are still great mysteries
99:18
and it is appropriate to think about
99:21
what it means to be human and are giving
99:23
you my view of what it means but but I
99:26
don’t think the problem comes when you
99:28
when your your theology or your
99:30
philosophy forces you to deny some facts
99:34
some measurement now these things at
99:36
measurements we’re not saying it’s not
99:39
my opinion the universe is 13.8 billion
99:41
years old we measured it it’s like
99:43
having an opinion between the distance
99:44
from LA to New York no you can’t have an
99:46
opinion on that right know what it is
99:48
and it’s the same you know excited out
99:51
that these things
99:52
people say the Earth’s flat or whatever
99:54
there so it isn’t and we’ve measured it
99:56
so it’s just stop it either said but
99:58
that doesn’t mean you can’t be spiritual
100:00
and you can’t be really just I would
100:03
saying it doesn’t mean you can’t believe
100:04
in God or God’s
100:06
that’s not ruled out by science but some
100:11
stuff’s ruled out well I love the way
100:14
you communicate this because it takes
100:16
into consideration human nature and like
100:18
I love Dawkins he’s fantastic I think
100:21
he’s very very very valuable but he
100:24
likes to call people idiots and the
100:26
problem with that is people go [ __ ] you
100:28
you’re an idiot it like is a natural
100:31
inclination when you insult people to
100:34
argue back and to sort of dig their
100:37
heels in yeah and you don’t do that and
100:40
I think that’s very important and I
100:42
think that a guy like doc has just gets
100:44
frustrated from all these years of
100:46
debates with people who educated are
100:48
saying ridiculous things and he’s a bit
100:49
of a curmudgeon you know and he seems to
100:51
be softening as he’s getting older well
100:53
he’s the evolutionary biology yes and
100:54
that’s the the front line in some sense
100:57
isn’t it yes yeah I mean the thing about
100:58
particle physics is that you don’t get a
101:00
lot of [ __ ] because people don’t
101:02
understand what you’re talking about
101:05
right there so I understand his
101:08
frustration oh I do too
101:10
having said that you know I’ve kind of
101:13
softened a bit over the years actually
101:15
because now I think at this point both
101:18
in the u.s. actually and in Britain and
101:20
in some of the countries we are at a
101:23
point you’ve alluded to it where
101:25
everybody’s angry no a lot of anger and
101:27
a lot of it’s justified by the way whom
101:29
you could talk about that you know
101:30
income inequality and all those things
101:31
so it’s justified anger but it seems to
101:34
me that there are people of goodwill who
101:36
need to band together to diffuse the
101:39
anger in our societies otherwise we
101:41
won’t have countries like the United
101:42
States yes the United States because
101:44
it’s United and everybody
101:45
you’ve got the United flag there you
101:48
know said that there’s a sense of
101:50
belonging identity and togetherness in a
101:52
country which you’ve got to preserve and
101:54
so I’ve stopped actually um picking I
101:57
Isis for example quite enjoy picking
101:59
fights with Deepak Chopra on Twitter
102:02
it’s just for me to laugh
102:06
he says some crazy stuff in his hand but
102:08
I saw Thomas I’ve stopped doing it going
102:10
well but relative to some of the other
102:13
people right he’s he’s someone who means
102:18
well yes I don’t agree with virtually
102:21
anything he says however he’s a
102:23
well-meaning person yeah and so I’ve
102:25
started trying to seek common ground now
102:27
that’s why I for example gave a talk to
102:31
the bishops they asked me to come you I
102:32
don’t agree with them on the framework
102:35
their theological framework but they
102:37
mean well most of them yeah so I think
102:40
seeking consensus and diffusion anger as
102:42
you said is it is incumbent all of us
102:45
especially people like us you have a
102:46
public voice we need to defuse some of
102:49
this anger because otherwise it will
102:50
consume everyone yes I’ve tried very
102:53
hard to evolve in that respect and just
102:57
get better at communicating ideas and
102:59
get better at understanding how people
103:00
receive those ideas and I think that’s
103:02
it’s there’s it’s easy to get lazy and
103:06
to insult and especially me I mean I’m a
103:12
comedian what I do people yeah for humor
103:18
I want to entertain people that’s the
103:20
whole idea behind it but I think in
103:22
terms of like discussing ideas
103:23
especially that are so personal to
103:25
people like religion I’ve I’ve
103:28
reexamined the way I interpret these
103:31
ideas and the way I talk about these
103:33
things
103:33
yeah there’s a it’s interesting there’s
103:37
a I did a BBC program my age that I was
103:40
asked to do it on the thing call the
103:41
wreath lectures the babies that the BBC
103:45
have done since 1952 I think he was and
103:47
Robert Oppenheimer did them in 53 and it
103:51
was it’s fascinating you can get the
103:53
transcripts online they’re free and you
103:55
can get one recording of the five they
103:57
taped over the other four and you
103:58
believe it they raised them they wanted
104:01
to tape something but one of them
104:05
existed often Jaime giving these
104:06
lectures oh my god but you can read
104:14
better and Russell didn’t do the Reaver
104:16
they taped over them Bertrand Russell
104:20
because tape was so expensive but he
104:24
talks of raising yeah but it’s brilliant
104:26
it’s cause science in the common
104:28
understanding and they weren’t very
104:29
well-received because he thought he was
104:31
gonna talk about their Manhattan
104:32
projects so they thought he was gonna
104:33
talk about the atom bomb meaning is that
104:35
he was she ran it basically but he
104:37
didn’t he talked about how its thinking
104:40
like a scientist which means thinking in
104:43
the way that nature forces you to think
104:45
can be valuable in other areas and it’s
104:48
a that’s an insight in itself the great
104:50
thing the unique thing about science is
104:53
nature forces you to think like that you
104:56
can’t have an opinion can I have an
104:57
opinion about gravity just be gentle as
105:00
a building you can hit the ground that’s
105:02
it doesn’t matter what your opinion is
105:03
and and he said so if you think about
105:07
for example quantum mechanics so
105:09
sometimes you think of as particle like
105:11
an electron sometimes it has to it’s a
105:13
point like object may behave like a
105:16
little billiard ball thing pool ball
105:18
that bounces around but sometimes it
105:20
behaves like an extended thing like a
105:22
wavy thing and nature forces you to hold
105:25
both ideas in your head at the same time
105:27
you know there’s a get a complete
105:28
picture of the objects they’re a
105:31
description of an electron and he said
105:33
that’s the valuable thing about quantum
105:35
mechanics you know unless you’re doing
105:37
electronics or inventing lasers you
105:39
don’t need to know this stuff but if you
105:41
want to learn how to think you it’s
105:43
valuable to be forced to hold different
105:46
ideas in your head at the same time mmm
105:48
it’s really teaching you not to be an
105:49
absolutist straight teaching you the
105:51
example he uses is because he was I
105:54
think he was had problems with McCarthy
105:56
and all those things didn’t he so you
105:57
think he’s writing in the 50s so he said
105:59
you can either be you could be a
106:01
communist which in his definition would
106:03
be that you think the needs of the many
106:06
outweigh the needs of the few right so
106:07
so societies all that matters
106:09
oh it could be a libertarian all right
106:11
on the far conservative end where you
106:13
think that the individual is the only
106:15
thing that matters and that’s it but
106:17
actually of course to have a function in
106:19
society you need a mixture of the two
106:21
and we can wait it one way or the other
106:23
but you need to hold both ideas in your
106:26
head at the same time and that’s he said
106:28
that one of the most valuable things
106:30
about science because it forces you into
106:32
modes
106:32
thought they’re valuable and that’s what
106:35
we’re talking about here it’s so
106:36
absolute physicians are always a just a
106:41
blinkered sort of subset of what’s
106:44
actually happening you can’t understand
106:46
the world by being an extremist yeah
106:48
you’ve got to hold all these views in
106:50
your head well that I find that so often
106:55
on this podcast because I talk with
106:57
people I agree with end disagree with
106:59
and I always try to put myself in the
107:01
head of the person that I disagree with
107:03
I always try to figure out how they’re
107:06
coming to those conclusions or where
107:08
they’re coming from yeah and I think
107:10
it’s so it’s so important to not be
107:13
married to ideas I got a conversation
107:15
with someone about this and they said
107:18
like sometimes you change your opinions
107:19
a lot I go yeah I do flip-flopping I’m
107:25
not a politician like I’m not
107:27
flip-flopping I’m thinking yeah I’m not
107:29
sure I’m not sure like I I will have one
107:32
opinion on a thing whether it’s a
107:34
controversial thing like universal basic
107:36
income I’ll change my mind a hundred
107:38
percent in two weeks
107:39
yeah now I think it’s probably a good
107:41
idea yeah and then I’ll go back and
107:43
forth no no no no no people need but
107:45
it’s as cruel as it seems they need
107:47
motivation they need and I don’t know I
107:49
bounce around with these things yeah but
107:51
I’ve tried really hard as I’ve gotten
107:54
older to have less absolute opinions
107:56
yeah yeah Richard Fineman another great
107:59
physicist wrote a similar essay a
108:01
similar time to Oppenheimer and he also
108:03
works in the Manhattan Project it’s
108:05
called the value of science and I think
108:07
that was 1955 and they both shared
108:09
actually a surprise I think that they
108:13
were still alive because they thought
108:14
that the power they’d given to the
108:16
politicians the atom bomb would destroy
108:19
everything they didn’t think that a
108:20
political system would control it and it
108:22
did so that’s an emotion remarkable
108:24
thing yeah we’re still here but in in in
108:26
that essay he said the the most valuable
108:31
thing about science is the realization
108:33
that we don’t know and he said he said
108:36
in that statement he calls science is
108:39
satisfactory philosophy of ignorance by
108:41
the way he said in that statement is the
108:43
open door the open channel he called it
108:46
if we want to make progress we have to
108:48
understand that we don’t know everything
108:51
and we have to leave things to future
108:53
generations and we can be uncertain and
108:55
we can change our minds and he said that
108:57
that’s that it’s a great last line I
109:00
come exactly what he says but he said
109:01
it’s something like is our duty as
109:03
scientists to communicate the value of
109:05
uncertainty and the value of freedom of
109:07
thoughts to all future generations
109:08
that’s the point that’s what freedom of
109:11
thought means freedom of thought means
109:13
the freedom to change your mind in fact
109:16
said that’s what democracy is if you
109:17
think about it democracy is a trial and
109:19
error system so it’s the it’s the
109:21
admission that we don’t know how to do
109:24
it therefore we’ll change every four
109:26
years we’ll change the president or
109:28
every eight years we’ll change the
109:29
president why because the president
109:31
doesn’t know how to do it so that
109:33
someone better they will do someone
109:35
better that comes along and then someone
109:37
worse and someone better but it’s a
109:38
trial and error system and he’s right
109:41
and he’s right that that is the open
109:42
door that’s that that’s the road to
109:45
progress he’s certainly better than
109:46
humility yeah one of the things that I
109:48
love so much about Bertrand Russell and
109:50
about Fineman was how human they were
109:52
they were very human I mean finally like
109:55
to play the bongos and who’s chasing
109:57
girls and Bertrand Russell was addicted
109:59
to tobacco he would talk about how he
110:01
wouldn’t fly unless he could smoke like
110:04
he had to get us was back when they had
110:06
smoking sections on airplanes and he had
110:09
his pipe and he just refused to fly
110:11
without tobacco and he couldn’t imagine
110:12
being without tobacco well yeah that’s
110:14
so strange for such a brilliant guy to
110:17
be addicted to such a gross thing yeah
110:20
you’re right because I think these these
110:22
are faithful that found existence joyous
110:26
yeah wanted to know they just wanted to
110:28
know stuff yeah didn’t want to know
110:29
everything because you can’t know
110:31
everything right yeah I suppose that’s
110:33
what if you think about what the job of
110:36
the scientist is is to is to stand on
110:38
the edge of the known because you’re a
110:41
research scientist so if there’s nothing
110:42
to know then you’ve got no job so you
110:45
have to be naturally comfortable with
110:47
not knowing and if there’s one thing I
110:50
really do think we was how do we begin
110:53
to patch our countries back up again one
110:56
of the reasons I think in education is
110:58
to teach people the value of on
110:59
certainty but not knowing it is not weak
111:02
right to not know it’s actually natural
111:06
not to know and that’s one of the
111:09
freedom is with religion is to say that
111:11
you know when you do not hard to say
111:13
that you have absolute truth and
111:15
absolute knowledge of something yeah
111:17
when it can’t really exist yeah I mean
111:19
history tells us doesn’t it that yeah
111:20
anyone who thinks they’ve got absolute
111:22
knowledge is a cause he’s trouble yeah
111:25
did you see ex machina yeah did you
111:28
enjoy it yes yes I know him Alex Garland
111:31
because he wrote sunshine oh right 28
111:34
days later
111:35
yeah and yeah new movie the weird one
111:38
the alien movie he wrote that as well
111:39
right yes a great soundtrack yeah yeah
111:45
did you are you scared of artificial
111:48
life artificial intelligence and you
111:51
know I might scare the [ __ ] out of me
111:53
yeah when he talked about it like he
111:55
talks about it like were in the opening
111:58
scene of a science fiction movie where
112:01
he’s trying to warn people and then they
112:03
don’t listen to the genius and it goes
112:05
south so depends I chaired a debate on
112:09
this for the role sites in London a few
112:12
weeks ago and the so it’s treating now
112:16
at the moment what people seem to be
112:18
frightened of a general a is no I AG I
112:20
they call artificial general
112:21
intelligence which is like what we
112:23
talked about earlier a human-like
112:25
capability thing yes and we miles away
112:29
from that we don’t have to do it we
112:31
haven’t got them and we’re miles away so
112:33
at the moment artificial intelligence is
112:35
expert systems and very focused systems
112:38
that do particular things you can be
112:40
scared of them in a limited economic
112:43
sense because they’re going to displace
112:45
people’s jobs and actually interestingly
112:47
in this panel discussion we had it’s
112:49
going to be like why you Mike on
112:50
middle-class jobs in the UK so
112:52
white-collar jobs it’s not actually why
112:54
people are interested in universal basic
112:56
income to sort of replace money that’s
112:58
kind of lost because there will be no
113:00
jobs for all these people otherwise we
113:01
have just a mass catastrophe yeah
113:03
they’re very good someone said that
113:05
these systems are special intelligence
113:07
systems at the moment they’re very good
113:09
at doing things like lot lawyers work so
113:11
they’re very good at reading contracts
113:12
and things
113:13
that’s interesting it’s a revolution
113:15
it’s not like the Industrial Revolution
113:16
where it’s manual labor that gets hit
113:19
necessarily this is kind of interesting
113:21
because it hits that kind of
113:23
intermediate level that usually escapes
113:26
so you’re right one of the answers is to
113:28
tax there was an example was a robot
113:31
tank so in a car factory you say to the
113:34
manufacturer well okay you can have a
113:35
robot well you pay the robot the same as
113:37
you pay a person and then that money
113:39
goes into funding universal basic income
113:41
or something like that
113:42
mhm so I think there’s got to be an
113:43
economic change because these systems
113:45
will be there but all the experts I
113:49
suppose who agreed the the idea of a
113:52
Terminator style general intelligence
113:54
taken over the world is miles away and
113:58
so whilst we might start thinking about
114:01
the regulation it’s not going to happen
114:04
soon is the general point I think so I
114:08
would disagree with him on that I think
114:11
I think it’s too far in the future at
114:13
the moment I thought it might be one of
114:15
those people that’s okay it’s gonna be
114:17
all right right and then then you know
114:18
my iphone takes me out on the way so a
114:24
choice at the moment isn’t it I mean
114:25
don’t don’t give your iPhone a laser
114:28
that doesn’t matter if it goes crazy and
114:31
tries to take over the world I know I
114:32
know that’s a bit facetious because they
114:34
can he would say they could take over
114:36
power grids and all that kind of stuff
114:37
yeah well it’s these concepts that are
114:40
really hard to visualize like sir Kurt’s
114:43
Wiles idea of the exponential increase
114:46
of technology leading to us to a point
114:49
in the near future where you’re gonna be
114:51
able to download your consciousness into
114:52
a computer you talk to computer expert
114:54
still like there’s no way we’re miles
114:55
away from that yeah on you’re a
114:56
scientist yeah scientist one brain cell
115:02
probably we can but Kurzweil is
115:04
convinced that what’s gonna happen is
115:06
that as technology increases it can
115:08
increases in this wildly exponential way
115:11
where we really can’t visualize it we
115:14
can’t even imagine how much advancement
115:17
will take place over 50 years but in
115:19
those 50 years something’s going to
115:21
happen that radically changes our idea
115:23
of what’s possible and I think Elon
115:25
shares this idea as well that
115:27
gonna sneak up on us so quickly that
115:29
when it does go alive it’ll be too late
115:30
yeah I mean it’s worth putting the the
115:33
the framework in place
115:34
I think the regulatory framework even as
115:37
you said for the more realistic problem
115:39
which is people’s jobs are going to get
115:40
displaced yes
115:41
and there’s a great I was at a thing and
115:44
some someone said I come he was but they
115:46
said that the jury was a politician the
115:48
the job of the innovation system is to
115:50
create jobs faster than it destroys them
115:53
so you’ve always got to remember that as
115:54
a government and as regulators if you’re
115:57
going to allow technologies into the
115:59
marketplace that destroy people’s jobs
116:01
it is your responsibility to find a way
116:04
of replacing those jobs or compensating
116:07
those people as you said otherwise you
116:09
get breakdown so human being those that
116:12
people need some meaning like they just
116:15
giving them income I think is just gonna
116:18
mean just my speculation but it’s gonna
116:21
create mass despair even if you provide
116:24
them you provide them with food and
116:25
shelter they need people need things to
116:28
do so it’s there’s going to be some sort
116:31
of a demand to find meaning for people
116:34
give them occupations give them
116:36
something some tasks let’s say it seems
116:39
to be one of the critical parts of being
116:42
a person so we need things to do that we
116:45
find meaning in you know like you were
116:47
talking about we’re the only things that
116:49
we know of that have meaning that find
116:52
meaning and share meaning and believe in
116:54
that we’re gonna need something like
116:57
that if universal basic income comes
116:59
along I don’t think it’s going to be
117:00
enough to just feed people and house
117:02
them yeah they couldn’t want something
117:04
to do if you know a person is a you’re
117:07
doing something for an occupation and
117:09
this is your identity and then all
117:11
sudden that occupation becomes
117:12
irrelevant because computer does it
117:13
faster cheaper quicker these people are
117:17
gonna have this incredible feeling of
117:19
despair and just not being valuable yeah
117:22
I mean oh what wonder utopian so their
117:25
version of this is that everybody gets
117:27
to do what we’re doing now Rush’s make a
117:29
living so thinking and creating and now
117:32
that kind of you know so that that’s the
117:34
the utopian ideal is you don’t need to
117:36
do the stuff the job that you don’t
117:38
really want to do in the factory
117:41
you can do the thing that humans are
117:43
best at that but I agree it’s that’s a
117:46
very utopian view yeah does everybody
117:49
want to do that or does everybody have
117:51
their mindset well because we’re
117:53
education if everybody had an interest
117:55
like that if everybody went on to make
117:57
pottery and painting and doing all these
118:00
different things they’ve always really
118:01
wanted to do and their needs are met by
118:04
you know the universal basic income
118:06
money they receive every month but boy
118:09
there’s a lot of people I don’t think
118:10
have those desires or needs and to sort
118:13
of force them onto them at age 55 or
118:16
whatever it’s gonna be yeah seems to be
118:18
very very difficult yeah yeah I agree
118:22
yeah it’s a big challenge but I think
118:25
that in concept at least it’s inevitable
118:28
that we do have some sort of an
118:30
artificial intelligence that resembles
118:32
us or that resembles something like ex
118:35
machina if people choose to create that
118:39
I mean choose to create it in our own
118:41
image but that’s very godlike isn’t it
118:44
God created us in his own image yeah and
118:46
again yeah see I don’t know that when I
118:51
talk to people in the field as you
118:54
probably have most of them say don’t
118:56
have to do it yes it’s really right it’s
118:59
gonna be miles away so maybe I’m hiding
119:01
my head in the sand a bit but I don’t
119:04
think so I think it’s I think we’ll know
119:08
it when I don’t think anyone’s gonna do
119:09
it accidentally right so I I don’t think
119:12
it’s just suddenly going to be upon us I
119:14
I think we will see we’ll see ourselves
119:18
getting acquiring that capability we’ll
119:21
see ourselves getting close we’ll see
119:22
their systems beginning to emerge in
119:25
them we’ll think about it just think 200
119:28
years ago if you wanted a photograph of
119:30
something you want to picture something
119:31
you had a draw it I mean there was no
119:35
photography 200 years ago yeah I mean
119:38
just think of that it’s almost
119:40
inconceivable no automobiles no
119:43
photography what was automobile about
119:45
maybe there was some sort of machines
119:47
that drove people around right something
119:49
close there wasn’t three is earlier than
119:52
that
119:52
right you go back 500 years you have
119:55
almost nothing yeah it’s crazy how we’ve
119:57
been quick it’s so fast
119:59
it’s so fast I mean and then this what
120:02
we’re doing right now that there’s
120:03
people right now in their car that are
120:05
streaming this so they’re in their car
120:07
and they’re listening as they’re driving
120:08
on the road maybe they have a Tesla
120:10
maybe they have an electric car they’re
120:12
driving down the road streaming to
120:14
people talking where it’s ones and zeros
120:17
that are broken down and there’s some
120:19
audible form and you can listen to it in
120:21
your car that is bananas yeah I agree
120:26
we’ve been quick so quick well think of
120:28
the world you know the internet I mean
120:30
it’s a it said not long I mean I
120:33
remember it being invented yeah you know
120:35
oh well certainly the web went on so the
120:39
web well it was very early for me
120:41
because I was in doing particle physics
120:43
and of course that the web comes from
120:45
CERN the WWE bit right so it’s certainly
120:48
in the early 90s I was involved in that
120:51
you know in the university environment
120:54
with email and all that kind of stuff
120:56
so I don’t know when it kind of didn’t
120:59
really you could you could have a web
121:01
browser that just the only sites they
121:03
were there in NASA and I think NASA had
121:06
one of the early sites and CERN it was
121:08
very little oh when did you become
121:09
involved with CERN so that would be I
121:12
started doing particle physics in 95 and
121:16
when was when did the Large Hadron
121:18
Collider go alive that was an I remember
121:22
2000 and 2007 I think he pause of 2008
121:28
is so long ago about 10 years ago but he
121:31
started that we stayed up and then we
121:32
had a problem with it and then it took a
121:34
bit a while to fix it hasn’t been taking
121:37
data that long but it’s a tremendously
121:40
successful thing now and its operating
121:43
beyond its design capabilities it’s
121:45
quite incredible it’s so stunning a
121:47
physical thing that this how large is it
121:50
how long is in its 27 kilometres so I
121:53
sat about 60 miles 16 miles and it’s a
121:56
circular yeah sort of a building yeah
121:58
well I say it’s a big cube I mean you
122:00
think basically is mainly under France
122:02
and partly under Switzerland and it
122:04
accelerates protons
122:06
around in a circle both ways they won’t
122:08
one beam goes well my one goes the other
122:10
way and they go around 11,000 times a
122:12
second because that’s so very close to
122:15
speed of light 99.999999% the speed of
122:18
light and then we cross the beams and
122:20
collide the particles and in those
122:22
collisions you’re recreating the
122:24
conditions that were present less than a
122:26
billionth of a second after the Big Bang
122:28
so we know that physics so going back we
122:32
said about the carbon and the oxygen we
122:34
can trace that story back way beyond the
122:36
time when they were protons and neutrons
122:38
so when there were quarks and gluons
122:40
around and and go all the way back and
122:43
the Higgs boson doing its thing back
122:45
then and we so we can see all that
122:48
physics in the lab so that’s why we have
122:51
some a lot of confidence in that story
122:53
it’s so fascinating that they were able
122:56
to talk someone into funding that that
122:59
they got a bunch of people together and
123:01
that you you were able to explain to you
123:05
know politicians and and you know
123:08
regular people what what you’re trying
123:11
to do it’s a great example of how you
123:14
get something done so it was the night
123:15
the fifties when certain was established
123:18
I think was 53 or 54 can’t quite
123:21
remember it something like that and then
123:23
it was built out from the Second World
123:25
War so you have Europe at the end of the
123:27
war and it was realized that the only
123:30
way forward for you it was collaboration
123:31
to rebuild the scientific base and in it
123:36
for peace for peaceful purposes and so
123:38
CERN was set up as an international
123:40
collaboration in Europe initially with
123:42
that political ideal that it was it was
123:45
explore nature just for the freely and
123:51
for peace for peaceful means and
123:54
peaceful reasons and and so that was a
123:56
the pilet the politics was right so it
123:58
was said it by international treaty so
124:01
that the member states are bound
124:03
together by treaty and they pay a small
124:06
amount relatively small amount each into
124:08
CERN every year which is a percentage of
124:10
their GDP and that’s the money they used
124:13
to build do the experiments and build
124:14
the accelerators so it’s very hard to
124:17
get out of it and you wouldn’t really
124:19
want
124:20
because it’s a small amount of money per
124:21
country and CERN doesn’t extra money to
124:24
build things
124:25
it just takes its money and basically
124:27
saves up and plans itself but because
124:29
it’s got a regular stream of money it
124:31
can do it so you can say we’re gonna
124:32
build this machine and it will take 8
124:34
years because that’s how much money
124:35
we’ve got and we’ll build it in 8 years
124:38
and we know how much money we’ve got so
124:39
we can do it you know it’s a lesson I
124:41
mean that the reason that the u.s.
124:42
Collider the SSC failed is because it’s
124:47
the problem you have in the US with the
124:48
funding system as you’ve seen in the
124:50
last few weeks yeah is that it’s very
124:52
arbitrary and it’s open to political
124:54
maneuvering and things can be shut down
124:57
and take and uncertain is not like that
124:59
CERN has got a guaranteed stream of
125:02
funding small from each country and so
125:05
you can do these projects and the one in
125:06
the u.s. that was during the Clinton
125:08
administration so what it was yeah it
125:11
was close
125:12
was it Clinton it was closed down by
125:14
Congress and a very slim vote and it was
125:18
in Texas so it was it was one of those
125:20
things where you got States vying for
125:22
money and he was half built mm-hmm and
125:25
everyone was there you know I mean the
125:27
thing it was bigger than the LHC it was
125:30
so you waste a lot of money is that a
125:32
huge disappointment for a scientific
125:34
community like where people very hopeful
125:36
that this was going to go along yeah it
125:37
was being built dug half the tunnel what
125:40
would it be able to do that the LHC
125:42
couldn’t it was a higher energy
125:44
accelerator than the LHC so it would
125:46
have discovered the Higgs particle first
125:48
had it been running but the the half
125:51
bill part is it useless now or can they
125:54
I think you know so that’s the thing it
126:02
you can do these wonderful things for
126:05
not a lot of money if you just do it
126:09
over many years and have stable funding
126:11
yeah it’s commit to doing it the filling
126:13
in in part asleep and you look at CERN
126:15
as well and people you have people ask
126:16
me now I think the UK pays about it’s
126:19
about one hundred million dollars a year
126:21
that’s what the UK pays in and it’s
126:23
about same for Germany same for friends
126:25
and so on and so people say what do we
126:27
get for that I mean first of all it’s
126:28
not the whole budget of CERN is about
126:30
the same as a budget of a medium-sized
126:33
university
126:33
so it’s not a lot it’s about a billion
126:36
dollars a year or something which is
126:37
what a university has so it’s not a lot
126:41
in the scheme of things what’s it done
126:44
though
126:45
well we invented the world wide web as
126:46
we’ve just said a lot of the medical
126:48
imaging technology they were use comes
126:50
from CERN it’s pioneered the use of
126:52
these very high field magnets which is
126:54
what it needed
126:55
so it’s engineering at the edge and
126:57
engineering at the edge generates
127:00
spin-offs and expertise to get used in
127:02
other fields so there’s cancer treatment
127:04
so-called hadron beam therapy so if
127:06
you’ve got a brain tumor now it’s quite
127:08
likely that you’ll have one of these
127:10
targeted particle beam therapies which
127:12
is like very highly targeted sort of
127:15
chemotherapy it’s not chemotherapy it’s
127:16
radiation that you can target in the
127:18
beam into your head and attack the tumor
127:21
and those those are particle
127:23
accelerators so most particle
127:25
accelerators today are in hospitals and
127:28
in medicine but they came from doing
127:31
particle physics that so the the
127:34
spin-offs of these big experiments at
127:37
the edge of our capability are always
127:39
immense which is why they worth funding
127:42
at these very low levels but it’s not
127:45
just the knowledge it’s the engineering
127:47
expertise that there is a practical
127:49
application for every everyday
127:51
there always is it’s just finding out
127:52
how to do hard things is usually useful
127:55
the model and it wasn’t just the Higgs
127:58
boson particle that you guys are
127:59
discovered what is quark gluon plasma
128:03
yes that that’s a shortly after the
128:06
billionth of a second after the Big Bang
128:07
yeah you end up with a soup of quarks
128:11
and gluons so quarks are the building
128:13
blocks of protons and neutrons and
128:15
gluons are the things that stick them
128:16
together and so a proton has two up
128:19
quarks and a down quark and in each one
128:21
has two down quarks and up quark and so
128:23
on so their constituents the protons and
128:24
neutrons which are the constituents of
128:26
our atomic nuclei so we go if you go to
128:29
very high temperatures our high energies
128:31
then the protons and neutrons fall to
128:33
bits then you end up with a soup of
128:36
quarks and gluons
128:38
then that’s a quark gluon plasma and
128:40
it’s insanely dense right
128:42
yeah well very high-energy so so you get
128:46
that so
128:47
we’ve been exploring that by could we
128:48
don’t only collide protons together we
128:50
can collide lead nuclei together or
128:53
silver nuclei together at the LHC and
128:56
that’s when you make these kind of soups
128:58
of nuclear matter if you like very hot
129:02
nuclear matter to explore that physics
129:04
to that and that nuclear physics Wow and
129:07
I was reading something about the the
129:09
weight of of that stuff that like a
129:13
sugar cube like what is that what is the
129:16
actual weight well it depends our
129:18
density is that so don’t they’re I mean
129:21
they were the thing I remember is it the
129:23
sugar cube of a neutron star material
129:25
which is I don’t know how many hundred
129:29
million tons I can you know that it
129:31
depends but so I don’t know with the
129:33
quark-gluon plasma I don’t know what
129:34
number you there was something it was
129:36
one of the things after the discovery
129:38
they were talking about the massive
129:40
weight of quark gluon plasma and like
129:44
yeah almost incomprehensible yeah yeah I
129:46
don’t know the number of it but
129:48
something crazy yeah yeah now one once
129:51
these you got something here does 40
129:55
billion oh my god a cubic centimeter
129:58
would weigh 40 billion tons oh yeah the
130:09
densest matter created in the Big Bang
130:10
machine what are they doing right now
130:13
it’s a closed for engineering and
130:16
upgrades upgrades yeah I mean one thing
130:19
we’re trying to do is one of the things
130:20
in particle physics is that you want as
130:22
many collisions per second as you can
130:25
generate and then they we have a
130:28
collision whether what’s got a bunch
130:30
crossing LHC we can bury it but it’s
130:33
something like 25 nanoseconds different
130:35
they don’t want so it’s really we get a
130:37
lot of collisions per second and and the
130:39
more collisions per second you can get
130:41
the more chance you have in making
130:44
interest in things like Higgs particles
130:45
or whatever else may be out there
130:47
waiting to be discovered that means it’s
130:49
possible there are other particles out
130:51
there that we haven’t yet discovered
130:53
that could be within the reach of the
130:54
LHC and if this one that was in Texas
130:58
had gotten built and it was more
130:59
powerful
131:00
then the LHC you’d have even more
131:02
opportunity to do something like that
131:03
yeah now when these things are created
131:06
by these collisions how long do they
131:09
last
131:10
oh fractions of a second so that the
131:14
general rule in physics in particle
131:16
physics is that they’re the more massive
131:18
it is and the more things it can decay
131:20
into the faster it will do that so
131:23
basically the heavy things decay into
131:25
light things and so the only the stable
131:28
particles are things like electrons and
131:31
some of the quarks and the up quarks and
131:34
down quarks are stable things but so
131:38
everything tends to decay very fast so
131:40
we’re talking fraction billionths of a
131:41
second fractions and how are they less
131:44
than that are they registering its
131:47
existence like what is uh what is being
131:50
used to measure it so what you see if
131:52
you collide what are they I see we
131:54
collide protons together then-president
131:57
got loads of stuff in them loads of
131:58
gluons and the quarks so you get a big
132:01
mess first of all so most of it’s a load
132:03
of particles Asprey and I wish you’re
132:06
not interested in but sometimes when you
132:08
when let’s say a couple of the gluons
132:10
bangs together and they can make
132:12
something interesting like a top quark
132:14
or a Higgs particle what’s a top quark
132:17
it’s up quite a very heavy there’s six
132:19
quarks it says up and down charm and
132:21
strange bottom and top from end strange
132:25
yeah so it so strange was literally in
132:27
there was it the fifties I we discovered
132:30
them someone said that’s really strange
132:32
strange a new kind of particle and so
132:35
that yes we have six quarks and they’re
132:37
in three families so the up and down or
132:39
warm family and then the Chairman
132:42
stranger another family in the top and
132:43
bottom of the third family and so we for
132:45
some reason so the only thing the only
132:47
particles we need to make up you and me
132:49
they’re up quarks down quarks and
132:51
electrons but for some reason there are
132:53
two further copies of those which you’re
132:56
identically every way except they’re
132:58
heavier so there’s the charm and the
133:00
strange quark and if they’re in a heavy
133:01
electron called a muon and then there’s
133:04
a the top and the bottom quark and
133:05
another heavy electron called the tail
133:07
and that’s it
133:09
so that there’s this weird pattern that
133:11
we don’t understand so we don’t seems
133:13
like
133:14
you only needed the first family to
133:17
build a universe right right but for
133:19
some reason there are two copies now
133:22
heavy ones decay into the lighter ones
133:24
is the point so when you make them
133:25
they’re not around very long and just
133:28
answer your question what happens is
133:29
that when they decay they throw their
133:31
decay products out into our detector so
133:34
we take a photograph of the cascade of
133:37
particles that comes from these heavier
133:39
particles decaying and the trick is to
133:42
patch it all up to see to try and so
133:45
work out what everything came from Wow
133:47
now when they five find these unexpected
133:50
particles then what happens then there’s
133:53
the study of them then there’s then
133:56
everybody gets together and go okay what
133:57
the hell is that
133:58
yeah what is that what do we do so we
134:01
want to know with a Higgs particle we
134:03
know what it does which is it gives mass
134:04
to everything so it’s fundamentally the
134:08
thing that gives mass to all the other
134:10
things in the universe at the most
134:11
fundamental level so so electrons for
134:14
example and the up and down quarks there
134:17
get their mass from their interaction
134:20
with the Higgs that’s why they’re
134:21
massive that’s another reason we exist
134:23
you know we go right back we wouldn’t
134:25
exist if there wasn’t mass in the
134:27
universe and the Higgs is ultimately
134:29
responsible for that mass I keep saying
134:33
I keep caveat in it because then you get
134:35
other sorts of mass that generated but
134:38
but that the fundamental basic seed is
134:41
it were it’s from its from the Higgs and
134:43
so what we want to know is we want to
134:45
know how that thing behaves and their
134:48
weight so we’re study is so you want to
134:49
make a lot of them so you can take a lot
134:52
of pictures of it and study a lot and
134:53
see exactly how it does that and so
134:55
that’s what we’re doing that’s what
134:57
we’re engaged in at the moment we’re
134:58
making high-precision measurements of
135:00
the way that particle behaves so we can
135:03
understand the laws of nature and that
135:06
daddy’s the laws of nature
135:07
how are those particles behaving and
135:09
what are they doing but it is possible
135:12
that some new form of some new form of
135:17
particles something else could be
135:18
discovered yeah the way we know about
135:20
yet because we know almost no that there
135:24
are other particles out there in the
135:25
universe we almost know a thing called
135:27
matter yes so we look how into the
135:29
universe and we see that there’s a lot
135:31
of stuff there that it’s interacting
135:33
gravitationally but it’s not interacting
135:36
strongly with the matter out of which we
135:38
are made and the stars are made so it’s
135:41
almost certain that that’s some form of
135:44
particle that fits beautifully and we
135:47
see lots of different observations the
135:49
way galaxies rotate and interact and
135:51
even that oldest lie in the universe the
135:53
so-called cosmic microwave background
135:54
radiation we see the signature of that
135:57
stuff in that light as well so we think
135:59
that there’s some of the particle out
136:01
there and and to be honest we thought we
136:04
would have detected it I think at LHC we
136:07
have lots of theories called
136:08
supersymmetric theories that make
136:10
predictions for all sorts of different
136:12
particles that would interact weakly
136:13
with normal matter and I yeah I think
136:17
it’s broadly seen as a surprise that we
136:20
haven’t seen them at LHC so that just
136:22
may well mean that either their vote
136:26
they’re a bit too massive so we need
136:28
more energy to make them and we just
136:30
haven’t quite got enough well we’re not
136:32
making enough of them often enough to
136:33
see them which is one of the reasons we
136:35
upgrade in the LHC so we also look for
136:38
them by the way directly so we have
136:42
experiments under mountains we bury them
136:45
under mountains so the cosmic rays from
136:46
space don’t interfere with them and
136:48
we’re looking for the rare occasions
136:51
when these dark matter particles bump
136:52
into the particles of matter in the
136:55
detector so it’s so because ya D would
136:57
be these rooms full of them I mean the
136:59
galaxies swimming with matter as far as
137:02
we can tell but it interacts very weakly
137:04
with this matter so it doesn’t bump into
137:07
us very often so we’re looking for the
137:09
direct detection of it and we’re looking
137:11
to make those particles LHC so it’s
137:14
everywhere but it doesn’t interact with
137:16
us very weakly
137:17
and so interacts through gravity and the
137:20
the the archetypal particle that’s
137:22
everywhere that doesn’t interact
137:23
strongly is a neutrino so we do know
137:26
about neutrinos we’ve detected those and
137:28
there there are something like sixty
137:32
billion per centimeter squared per
137:34
second passing through your head now
137:36
from the Sun so they get made in nuclear
137:39
reactions in the Sun but they go
137:41
straight through
137:41
and actually straight through the earth
137:43
pretty much
137:44
occasionally one of them bumps into
137:46
something and we can detect those
137:48
because with so many of them going
137:51
through but we only detect you know know
137:53
one or two a day and the idea is that
137:56
dark matter encompasses an enormous
137:59
percentage of the universe yes it’s five
138:02
times as much matter is dark matter than
138:06
is normal matter and the number is
138:09
twenty five percent of the universe so
138:11
it’s roughly speaking about five percent
138:13
of the universe is normal matter stars
138:17
in gas 20 say percent as dark matter yes
138:20
oh yeah five Norma about 25 dark matter
138:23
in about 70s dark energy that’s the
138:25
other thing yeah yeah so what the hell’s
138:28
that don’t know know what it does so
138:32
again what see we got we talked about
138:34
Einstein’s theory earlier so Einstein’s
138:37
theory which works spectacularly well
138:39
says that if you put stuff into the
138:42
University we said before then it warps
138:44
and deforms and stretches and it very
138:47
precisely tells you given the stuff that
138:50
you put in it how much does it stretch
138:51
and how does it stretch and the the
138:55
measurement we have is how its
138:56
stretching so so we observe the thing we
138:59
observe is how the universe is expanding
139:01
and how that expansion rate is changing
139:04
and how it’s a ship how it’s changed
139:06
over time so we have very precise
139:08
measurements of that so then we can use
139:10
the theory to tell us what’s in it given
139:12
that we know what how it’s responding to
139:14
that stuff and that’s how we discover
139:17
dark energy so we noticed that the
139:19
universe’s expansion rate is increasing
139:22
so the universe is accelerating in its
139:24
expansion which is exactly the opposite
139:27
of what we thought noticed in the 1990s
139:29
that we discovered that so we can work
139:32
out what sort of stuff and how much of
139:35
that stuff you need to put in the
139:36
universe to make that happen and that’s
139:38
where we get these numbers from was your
139:42
resistance to that when that was first
139:43
proposed yeah I remember my one of my
139:45
friends at Brian Schmidt got the Nobel
139:47
Prize for that and then I remember I
139:49
talked to him and he said he was a
139:52
postdoc I think at the time so young
139:55
and he made he’s making measurements of
139:56
supernovae the light from supernova
139:58
explosions which is so bright that you
140:00
can see them you know hundreds and
140:02
millions billions of light years away
140:03
and he noticed that if you look at the
140:06
date so the light is stretched in the
140:08
wrong way so we look at the stretch of
140:11
light as it travels across the universe
140:13
and the universe is expanding it
140:14
stretches the lights so it changes the
140:16
color and he noticed that it was a
140:18
discrepancy which which said that the
140:21
universe that the expansion rate is
140:23
speeding up it’s been speeding up for
140:26
him think something like seven billion
140:28
years or so it’s been speeding up so he
140:31
thought these done something wrong
140:33
because it you know so so he checks it
140:36
and checked in checked it and he
140:37
couldn’t find anything wrong so he did
140:39
what a good scientist does which is he
140:40
published it so that somebody else could
140:42
find out what he’d done wrong and he
140:44
said that he thought it would be the end
140:45
of his career he thought I’d be a
140:46
laughingstock you know then he got the
140:48
Nobel Prize because he was right it is
140:50
stretched Wow
140:52
it’s a great lesson means that if you if
140:54
you’re sure that you can’t see what
140:57
you’ve done wrong then you publish it
140:59
because back to that thing about
141:00
humility we saw it earlier you know what
141:02
we ultimately we’re not trying to be
141:03
right we’re trying to find out stuff and
141:06
so the good scientists will be really
141:09
happy if they set out to be wrong
141:11
because they’ve learned something yeah
141:12
that’s that it’s good that yeah that’s
141:14
that because he got the Nobel Prize now
141:16
when he received the Nobel Prize in this
141:18
concept started being discussed what was
141:21
the initial reaction to it well it’s
141:23
it’s interesting because it’s allowed in
141:27
Einstein’s theory and it was in
141:28
Einstein’s original theory so it’s
141:31
called it’s got a name it’s called the
141:32
cosmological constant and that’s a it’s
141:35
it just allowed in the equations and
141:37
Einstein actually introduced it
141:40
initially so because I signs the
141:43
equations strongly suggest that the
141:46
universe is expanding or contracting and
141:48
not just sat there so even before we’d
141:51
observed anything
141:52
Einstein had a theory that suggested
141:55
that the universe is just not static and
141:57
actually really strongly suggest that
141:59
there’s a beginning right so that the
142:02
theory itself on its own suggests that
142:05
you can see that if the universe is
142:06
stretching today then
142:08
have been smaller in the past right
142:09
everything must’ve been closer together
142:10
let’s say that so the as a man that
142:15
chuckles George Lemaitre who was a who
142:17
worked independently of Einstein but the
142:19
same time in the early 1920s before we
142:22
even knew there were other galaxies
142:23
beyond the Milky Way and they noticed
142:25
that the the equation suggests the
142:27
universe might be stretching and so he
142:30
wrote to Einstein and said your theory
142:32
suggests there was a day without a
142:34
yesterday because he thought if
142:36
everything’s expanding now then he must
142:38
have been closer together in the past
142:39
and so there might be a time when it was
142:41
all together and he was a priest well so
142:44
it’s a Belgian priest so I think I mean
142:48
I wrote about this now it’s kind of mind
142:49
socialization of it but I think that he
142:51
was more predisposed to accept what the
142:55
equations were telling him because a
142:57
beginning an origin for a priest is
143:00
really a nice thing because it tells you
143:02
the creation event and Einstein tried to
143:04
dodge it and and put this allowed term
143:08
into his equation which is the almost
143:10
the stretchy term so say well if it’s
143:13
all if it’s all kind of contracting or
143:16
something can I put something in to make
143:17
it stretch a bit to balance it all out
143:19
so it can be eternal so an you can’t you
143:22
can’t make it eternal that way but he so
143:25
tried it then he took it out and called
143:28
it his biggest blunder taking it out was
143:31
ya know you can’t put any in his biggest
143:33
blunder or at least some people think
143:36
what what he’d done was miss the
143:38
prediction of the Big Bang really so by
143:41
trying to fiddle around to have a static
143:44
universe that’s stable
143:46
he missed what the equations were
143:48
screaming his own theory was screaming
143:50
to him which is that no the universe
143:52
expands or contracts and he missed it
143:55
right so I think that’s probably what he
143:57
meant by biggest blunder but in any case
143:59
he took it out and then later in the
144:01
1990s it turns out there no it’s there
144:04
but it’s really small it’s a tiny tiny
144:07
effect but it’s still dominating the
144:11
universe now and it will and it will
144:13
dominate even more in the future so we
144:15
think that we’re in the universe that
144:18
will continue to expand essentially
144:20
doubling in size
144:21
a fixed time scale which is about twenty
144:24
billion years so within every twenty
144:26
billion years into the future forever
144:28
unless something happens the universe
144:30
will continue to expand and double in
144:34
size two years and that’s the dark
144:36
energy that’s driving it but nobody
144:38
knows what it is it’s the it’s one of
144:41
the cutting edge massive problems in
144:44
theoretical physics and what is being
144:47
done to try to get a better grasp of
144:49
what it is
144:50
I mean it’s theoretical at them I mean
144:52
we’re making very precise observations
144:53
of it right but it looks like this
144:56
constant so it looks like it’s basically
144:58
one number if you like in Einstein’s
145:01
equations and just really simple so it
145:04
looks like it’s something that’s maybe a
145:05
property of space itself don’t know but
145:09
it looks like a very simple thing that
145:11
doesn’t change over time and just stays
145:14
there so so it requires theoretical
145:18
advance as well and so people are trying
145:21
very hard to do that it’s so crazy when
145:24
you go from Galileo to modern
145:27
theoretical physics that they’re still
145:28
in the myths of this understanding yeah
145:33
of what all this stuff is yeah I mean
145:35
that these are you know these are
145:38
fundamental and difficult problems and
145:40
we’re talking about the origin and
145:41
evolution of the universe right that’s
145:43
what cosmology is and it’s also particle
145:46
physics I mean the way that these things
145:48
this stuff we keep talking like this
145:50
stuff in the universe that’s what the
145:52
LHC studies it studies how the stuff
145:54
behaves um right now these are it’s very
145:58
theoretical right they’re trying to wrap
146:01
their their minds around what this is
146:03
and what the properties of it are do you
146:05
envision a time where you can actually
146:07
physically measure this and then have a
146:09
a real clear understanding of what it is
146:12
and what its properties dark energy and
146:14
I I don’t know I mean for example there
146:18
are theories for example which you’re
146:20
probably not right but they’re not
146:22
necessarily wrong either there are
146:24
theories that try to link it to the
146:25
Higgs particle so the Higgs particle
146:28
which we’ve discovered and can measure
146:30
has some properties that we think the
146:33
dark energy would need
146:35
and also this inflation that I mentioned
146:38
way back at the start of the universe as
146:40
some of the prophecies that can do that
146:42
as well so for example there are
146:44
fearfully tries to link them so we do
146:46
have an observation of the Higgs we can
146:48
study that so are they linked don’t know
146:51
and so it could be that we can study it
146:55
even though it’s a very small weak
146:58
effect and it could be web direct access
147:01
food so it’s great I mean it’s just
147:03
these are big mysteries that there’s
147:06
something really profound we don’t
147:07
understand about the way that stuff in
147:11
particular the Higgs actually interacts
147:13
with space and time so very naively the
147:17
Higgs should blow the universe apart
147:19
just very naively it’s loads of energy
147:22
in a very small amount of space huge
147:26
amounts of energy in the Higgs field but
147:28
it doesn’t do anything apart from give
147:30
mass to things it doesn’t seem to it
147:33
doesn’t directly affect space but
147:36
everything else that you put in space
147:38
directly affects it so you know there
147:42
are there are kind of issues there that
147:45
we don’t and it just says we don’t get
147:47
it we don’t know we don’t get it yet
147:49
it’s just I can eat another one of those
147:51
they’d probably late that I if I stood
147:53
guess I’d say there’s some link there
147:54
you know there’s something going on and
147:56
solving one of them might solve the
147:59
other to inflation Higgs dark energy
148:02
something how many people worldwide
148:05
would you estimate are trying to grasp
148:08
this and working on this the good
148:11
question I don’t know I mean it’s a it’s
148:13
probably tens of thousands tens of
148:15
thousands if you can all the people who
148:17
work at CERN and the particle physicists
148:19
and the theoretical physicists there’d
148:21
be tens of thousands because it’s it’s
148:24
so important to for us to get an
148:27
understanding of what’s going on but yet
148:30
so outside of the grasp of most people
148:34
including me
148:35
like I’m listening to you talk about
148:37
this and I’m like thank God it’s people
148:39
like you think whatever thank the think
148:41
quarks there’s people like you out there
148:43
that are doing this but it it’s almost
148:47
like you’re speaking another language
148:49
it’s so strange to me was very new stuff
148:52
yes you know I mean even when I was at
148:54
school and so when I when I was at
148:57
university we hadn’t discovered the top
148:59
quark and we we sorta knew it was there
149:01
we thought the Higgs might be there but
149:04
we had no idea whether it was you know
149:06
so so we’re moving in my career we’re
149:09
moving quite fast and yet you’re right
149:12
these are the most fundamental questions
149:14
about what Weiser eat ultimately why is
149:17
the universe the way it is and even
149:19
possibly why is there a universe right
149:21
movie we’re away from that yet but if
149:24
we’re ever going to answer that it will
149:26
be by doing stuff like this and this is
149:29
all addressed in this live show that
149:31
you’re doing this world yeah live show
149:33
and certainly be they also the
149:36
consequences of the not that comes words
149:39
of knowledge but the the cosmology is
149:41
terrifying that as we’ve started with so
149:46
I think it as we’ve said it raises
149:49
questions it makes quite vivid questions
149:52
that we all have about you know what are
149:55
what are we doing here right this sigh
149:58
try I think it’s got all the way back to
150:01
me really been into Cal Sega and he
150:04
always used to try this you you try to
150:06
link it to things that people think
150:09
about naturally then that’s why people
150:11
are fascinated by this stuff because
150:14
they do actually think about it you
150:15
might not be with the right names or the
150:17
right words or the right facts even but
150:20
they’re thinking about how did I get
150:21
here how did I come to exist what is the
150:24
future do we have a future
150:26
what was our past yeah these these are
150:29
universal questions I think there
150:31
certainly are and the way you’re doing
150:33
this with your live show you were saying
150:35
that you have an enormous visual aspect
150:37
to it well we have a we we have the
150:41
biggest screen we can get in every venue
150:43
and it’s led it’s when the the
150:44
state-of-the-art modern LED screen so
150:46
they’re like Lego then you can build
150:48
them so you fill the venue with it so
150:50
you know Wembley Arena
150:52
then it’s 30 meters wide whatever by 8
150:55
meters high it’s enormous
150:56
you must have a huge crew carrying on
150:58
yeah 16 or 18 people and
151:01
to rock’n’roll show some of the venues
151:03
were doing in North America they’re in
151:05
Canada they’re a bit smaller venues but
151:07
we just fill it with screen as much as
151:09
we can get and then the graphics a lot
151:11
of the graphics I I have we’re done by a
151:13
Dean egg who did ex machina actually
151:16
Aunt Estella and the reason I I mean I I
151:20
say chose them I drank them up and goes
151:22
please please will you do this and they
151:24
said how much money have you got and you
151:26
know cuz it’s way lower than Chris Nolan
151:28
yeah they did it they were mean that
151:30
they just liked the idea of these
151:32
messages and these ideas so they use the
151:34
software that they use for interstellar
151:36
to create images of black holes Wow and
151:39
they they use general relativity they
151:41
coded it into their their graphics
151:44
software so they can rate race lights
151:47
around black holes and you can move the
151:49
camera around the black hole and it
151:51
traces the way all the light moves
151:52
around it so if you remember those
151:54
amazing get the gargantuan the black
151:56
hole in interstellar that’s that’s a
151:58
simulation it’s not an artist’s
152:00
impression it’s a simulation of what
152:02
Einstein’s theory tells as a black hole
152:04
will look like and so I can use that to
152:06
talk about what happens when you fall
152:08
into a black hole what would you see
152:10
watching someone fall in and you can
152:13
explain all that using Einstein’s theory
152:15
you know the idea that it’s kind of a
152:17
well-known idea it’s a bizarre idea that
152:19
if I was to fall into a black hole and
152:22
you were watching you’d never see me
152:23
falling you’d see time slowed down my
152:26
time slowed down as you watch me so in
152:30
the end I’d just slow down and slow down
152:31
and slow down and then I get frozen on
152:33
the event horizon and just fade away as
152:36
an image a reddening image on the event
152:38
horizon so time passes at different
152:41
rates as you move close to the black
152:44
hole and far away because space and time
152:46
have distorted by the mass of the black
152:49
hole and so I could I talk about all
152:51
that but I talk about all that with this
152:52
incredible image which we had it’s so
152:56
high resolution by the way that they it
152:58
was higher resolution than they’re used
153:00
for interstellar because my screen so
153:02
big so so we need a special machine to
153:05
play it you can buy the most expensive
153:07
Mac Pro in the world and it will not
153:10
play this stuff so I loved that from a
153:13
geek perspective
153:14
you have a special video player to play
153:17
the dampers just like a series of CPUs
153:20
are attached together and some sort of a
153:21
super yeah it’s yeah it’s one of those
153:23
this one’s a big sort of visualization
153:25
graphics things but but these files are
153:27
like you know there are 20 gig video
153:29
files Wow because there’s so many pixels
153:31
might the Pixar resoluteness is really
153:33
geeky in it fakes the resolution 6400 by
153:36
1536 so impress my screen
153:39
it’s a lot like that yeah are you coming
153:45
to Los Angeles with this yeah wait a
153:47
month Taliban Theatre in May the end of
153:50
me I’m there yeah I’m here
153:52
oh yeah no you’ve gotta come 24th of May
153:55
oh you’re in San Diego as well
153:56
hey I gotta see one of these yeah it’s
154:00
gonna be great fun and however much
154:02
stuff we can fit into those handsome
154:05
devil look at that nice jacket on
154:07
looking good someone gave me that to
154:11
scrounge that but it’s cool cuz you’re
154:13
looking a cool guy cool guy with space
154:16
behind you that’s awesome man well
154:18
listen thank you so much for doing this
154:20
I really appreciate you appreciate
154:22
everything you’re doing it’s awesome
154:24
no thank you I always enjoy crying I
154:26
loved it last time and people still talk
154:28
about it when I was on less time more
154:29
people ask me about making you than but
154:32
should anybody else say get ready like
154:34
because it’s like a hundred times more
154:36
popular than it was back then is it it’s
154:38
gonna be very strange now but thank you
154:39
again really appreciate it I can’t wait
154:41
to see your show thank you so much thank
154:42
you
154:45