Krystal and Saagar: Media FAILS To Correct ANOTHER ‘Bombshell’ Russiagate CIA Lie On Giuliani

Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti discuss how three separate news organizations published the same erroneous claim about Rudy Giuliani last week, prompting corrections.

Trump Had One Last Story to Sell. The Wall Street Journal Wouldn’t Buy It.

Inside the White House’s secret, last-ditch effort to change the narrative, and the election — and the return of the media gatekeepers.

By early October, even people inside the White House believed President Trump’s re-election campaign needed a desperate rescue mission. So three men allied with the president gathered at a house in McLean, Va., to launch one.

The host was Arthur Schwartz, a New York public relations man close to President Trump’s eldest son, Donald Jr. The guests were a White House lawyer, Eric Herschmann, and a former deputy White House counsel, Stefan Passantino, according to two people familiar with the meeting.

Mr. Herschmann knew the subject matter they were there to discuss. He had represented Mr. Trump during the impeachment trial early this year, and he tried to deflect allegations against the president in part by pointing to Hunter Biden’s work in Ukraine. More recently, he has been working on the White House payroll with a hazy portfolio, listed as “a senior adviser to the president,” and remains close to Jared Kushner.

The three had pinned their hopes for re-electing the president on a fourth guest, a straight-shooting Wall Street Journal White House reporter named Michael Bender. They delivered the goods to him there: a cache of emails detailing Hunter Biden’s business activities, and, on speaker phone, a former business partner of Hunter Biden’s named Tony Bobulinski. Mr. Bobulinski was willing to go on the record in The Journal with an explosive claim: that Joe Biden, the former vice president, had been aware of, and profited from, his son’s activities. The Trump team left believing that The Journal would blow the thing open and their excitement was conveyed to the president.

The Journal had seemed to be the perfect outlet for a story the Trump advisers believed could sink Mr. Biden’s candidacy. Its small-c conservatism in reporting means the work of its news pages carries credibility across the industry. And its readership leans further right than other big news outlets. Its Washington bureau chief, Paul Beckett, recently remarked at a virtual gathering of Journal reporters and editors that while he knows that the paper often delivers unwelcome news to the many Trump supporters who read it, The Journal should protect its unique position of being trusted across the political spectrum, two people familiar with the remarks said.

As the Trump team waited with excited anticipation for a Journal exposé, the newspaper did its due diligence: Mr. Bender and Mr. Beckett handed the story off to a well-regarded China correspondent, James Areddy, and a Capitol Hill reporter who had followed the Hunter Biden story, Andrew Duehren. Mr. Areddy interviewed Mr. Bobulinski. They began drafting an article.

Then things got messy. Without warning his notional allies, Rudy Giuliani, the former New York mayor and now a lawyer for President Trump, burst onto the scene with the tabloid version of the McLean crew’s carefully laid plot. Mr. Giuliani delivered a cache of documents of questionable provenance — but containing some of the same emails — to The New York Post, a sister publication to The Journal in Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp. Mr. Giuliani had been working with the former Trump aide Steve Bannon, who also began leaking some of the emails to favored right-wing outlets. Mr. Giuliani’s complicated claim that the emails came from a laptop Hunter Biden had abandoned, and his refusal to let some reporters examine the laptop, cast a pall over the story — as did The Post’s reporting, which alleged but could not prove that Joe Biden had been involved in his son’s activities.

While the Trump team was clearly jumpy, editors in The Journal’s Washington bureau were wrestling with a central question: Could the documents, or Mr. Bobulinski, prove that Joe Biden was involved in his son’s lobbying? Or was this yet another story of the younger Mr. Biden trading on his family’s name — a perfectly good theme, but not a new one or one that needed urgently to be revealed before the election.

Mr. Trump and his allies expected the Journal story to appear Monday, Oct. 19, according to Mr. Bannon. That would be late in the campaign, but not too late — and could shape that week’s news cycle heading into the crucial final debate last Thursday. An “important piece” in The Journal would be coming soon, Mr. Trump told aides on a conference call that day.

His comment was not appreciated inside The Journal.

The editors didn’t like Trump’s insinuation that we were being teed up to do this hit job,” a Journal reporter who wasn’t directly involved in the story told me. But the reporters continued to work on the draft as the Thursday debate approached, indifferent to the White House’s frantic timeline.

Finally, Mr. Bobulinski got tired of waiting.

“He got spooked about whether they were going to do it or not,” Mr. Bannon said.

At 7:35 Wednesday evening, Mr. Bobulinski emailed an on-the-record, 684-word statement making his case to a range of news outlets. Breitbart News published it in full. He appeared the next day in Nashville to attend the debate as Mr. Trump’s surprise guest, and less than two hours before the debate was to begin, he read a six-minute statement to the press, detailing his allegations that the former vice president had involvement in his son’s business dealings.

When Mr. Trump stepped on stage, the president acted as though the details of the emails and the allegations were common knowledge. “You’re the big man, I think. I don’t know, maybe you’re not,” he told Mr. Biden at some point, a reference to an ambiguous sentence from the documents.

As the debate ended, The Wall Street Journal published a brief item, just the stub of Mr. Areddy and Mr. Duehren’s reporting. The core of it was that Mr. Bobulinski had failed to prove the central claim. “Corporate records reviewed by The Wall Street Journal show no role for Joe Biden,” The Journal reported.

Asked about The Journal’s handling of the story, the editor in chief, Matt Murray, said the paper did not discuss its newsgathering. “Our rigorous and trusted journalism speaks for itself,” Mr. Murray said in an emailed statement.

And if you’d been watching the debate, but hadn’t been obsessively watching Fox News or reading Breitbart, you would have had no idea what Mr. Trump was talking about. The story the Trump team hoped would upend the campaign was fading fast.

The McLean group’s failed attempt to sway the election is partly just another story revealing the chaotic, threadbare quality of the Trump operation — a far cry from the coordinated “disinformation” machinery feared by liberals.

But it’s also about a larger shift in the American media, one in which the gatekeepers appear to have returned after a long absence.

It has been a disorienting couple of decades, after all. It all began when The Drudge Report, Gawker and the blogs started telling you what stodgy old newspapers and television networks wouldn’t. Then social media brought floods of content pouring over the old barricades.

By 2015, the old gatekeepers had entered a kind of crisis of confidence, believing they couldn’t control the online news cycle any better than King Canute could control the tides. Television networks all but let Donald Trump take over as executive producer that summer and fall. In October 2016, Julian Assange and James Comey seemed to drive the news cycle more than the major news organizations. Many figures in old media and new bought into the idea that in the new world, readers would find the information they wanted to read — and therefore, decisions by editors and producers, about whether to cover something and how much attention to give it, didn’t mean much.

But the last two weeks have proved the opposite: that the old gatekeepers, like The Journal, can still control the agenda. It turns out there is a big difference between WikiLeaks and establishment media coverage of WikiLeaks, a difference between a Trump tweet and an article about it, even between an opinion piece in The Wall Street Journal suggesting Joe Biden had done bad things, and a news article that didn’t reach that conclusion.

Perhaps the most influential media document of the last four years is a chart by a co-director of the Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society at Harvard, Yochai Benkler. The study showed that a dense new right-wing media sphere had emerged — and that the mainstream news “revolved around the agenda that the right-wing media sphere set.”

Mr. Bannon had known this, too. He described his strategy as “anchor left, pivot right,” and even as he ran Breitbart News, he worked to place attacks on Hillary Clinton in mainstream outlets. The validating power of those outlets was clear when The New York Times and Washington Post were given early access in the spring of 2015 to the book “Clinton Cash,” an investigation of the Clinton family’s blurring of business, philanthropic and political interests by the writer Peter Schweizer.

Mr. Schweizer is still around this cycle. But you won’t find his work in mainstream outlets. He’s over on Breitbart, with a couple of Hunter Biden stories this month.

And the fact that Mr. Bobulinski emerged not in the pages of the widely respected Journal but in a statement to Breitbart was essentially Mr. Bannon’s nightmare, and Mr. Benkler’s fondest wish. And a broad array of mainstream outlets, unpersuaded that Hunter Biden’s doings tie directly to the former vice president, have largely kept the story off their front pages, and confined to skeptical explanations of what Mr. Trump and his allies are claiming about his opponent.

“SO USA TODAY DIDN’T WANT TO RUN MY HUNTER BIDEN COLUMN THIS WEEK,” the conservative writer Glenn Reynolds complained Oct. 20, posting the article instead to his blog. President Trump himself hit a wall when he tried to push the Hunter Biden narrative onto CBS News.

“This is ‘60 Minutes,’ and we can’t put on things we can’t verify,” Lesley Stahl told him. Mr. Trump then did more or less the same thing as Mr. Reynolds, posting a video of his side of the interview to his own blog, Facebook.

The media’s control over information, of course, is not as total as it used to be. The people who own printing presses and broadcast towers can’t actually stop you from reading leaked emails or unproven theories about Joe Biden’s knowledge of his son’s business. But what Mr. Benkler’s research showed was that the elite outlets’ ability to set the agenda endured in spite of social media.

We should have known it, of course. Many of our readers, screaming about headlines on Twitter, did. And Mr. Trump knew it all along — one way to read his endless attacks on the establishment media is as an expression of obsession, a form of love. This week, you can hear howls of betrayal from people who have for years said the legacy media was both utterly biased and totally irrelevant.

“For years, we’ve respected and even revered the sanctified position of the free press,” wrote Dana Loesch, a right-wing commentator not particularly known for her reverence of legacy media, expressing frustration that the Biden story was not getting attention. “Now that free press points its digital pen at your throat when you question their preferences.”

There’s something amusing — even a bit flattering — in such earnest protestations from a right-wing movement rooted in efforts to discredit the independent media. And this reassertion of control over information is what you’ve seen many journalists call for in recent years. At its best, it can also close the political landscape to a trendy new form of dirty tricks, as in France in 2017, where the media largely ignored a last-minute dump of hacked emails from President Emmanuel Macron’s campaign just before a legally mandated blackout period.

But I admit that I feel deep ambivalence about this revenge of the gatekeepers. I spent my career, before arriving at The Times in March, on the other side of the gate, lobbing information past it to a very online audience who I presumed had already seen the leak or the rumor, and seeing my job as helping to guide that audience through the thicket, not to close their eyes to it. “The media’s new and unfamiliar job is to provide a framework for understanding the wild, unvetted, and incredibly intoxicating information that its audience will inevitably see — not to ignore it,” my colleague John Herrman (also now at The Times) and I wrote in 2013. In 2017, I made the decision to publish the unverified “Steele dossier,” in part on the grounds that gatekeepers were looking at it and influenced by it, but keeping it from their audience.

This fall, top media and tech executives were bracing to refight the last war — a foreign-backed hack-and-leak operation like WikiLeaks seeking to influence the election’s outcome. It was that hyper-vigilance that led Twitter to block links to The New York Post’s article about Hunter Biden — a frighteningly disproportionate response to a story that other news organizations were handling with care. The schemes of Mr. Herschmann, Mr. Passantino and Mr. Schwartz weren’t exactly WikiLeaks. But the special nervousness that many outlets, including this one, feel about the provenance of the Hunter Biden emails is, in many ways, the legacy of the WikiLeaks experience.

I’d prefer to put my faith in Mr. Murray and careful, professional journalists like him than in the social platforms’ product managers and executives. And I hope Americans relieved that the gatekeepers are reasserting themselves will also pay attention to who gets that power, and how centralized it is, and root for new voices to correct and challenge them.

Joe Rogan: We are Living in a Time of Adolescent Communication

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41:31
whole mask thing apparently I was like
41:33
really arguing you shouldn’t wear a mask
41:35
or you’re a [ __ ] god it’s but that’s
41:38
also the problem with sound bites on
41:40
Twitter yeah it’s
41:41
you know it exists it’s the content
41:44
factory and you know anybody that
41:46
creates content you know then that goes
41:50
out into the world and look they’re
41:51
looking for for eyeballs to and that’s
41:54
why I always feel like like I take [ __ ]
41:58
but I can’t complain about it because
41:59
that’s part of the guy right that’s part
42:03
of the game that’s what I do for living
42:04
so like when people say let it go
42:06
correctness it’s overwhelming I just say
42:08
like amen it’s just other people pushing
42:12
back and getting to say their [ __ ] and
42:13
that’s exactly what they should be doing
42:16
the internet and it’s democratized you
42:19
know outraged and there’s more speech
42:23
now than there’s ever been before in the
42:25
history of the world like we all know
42:26
you know it’s like that what’s the movie
42:28
with the Mel Gibson where he knows what
42:32
women what would you think Yeah right
42:34
so yeah ESP Twitter and the Internet is
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just we all have developed the ESP and
42:39
now we know what everybody is thinking
42:41
it’s all every day we’re just bombarded
42:44
by what everybody’s saying well you’re
42:46
also bombarded by the people that spend
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the most time doing it because there’s a
42:50
lot of mentally unwell people that spend
42:52
their entire day camp down on Twitter
42:54
having arguments and if you want to
42:57
venture into that world and risk your
42:59
consciousness and your health your met
43:01
your literal mental health by
43:03
communicating in this really crude
43:05
manner with text messages and you know
43:08
arguing over semantics with people that
43:10
you don’t even know it’s it’s a terrible
43:12
way to exist are you on Twitter do you
43:15
have a Twitter account but I don’t read
43:16
it it goes you know I post things on
43:20
inner on Instagram they go to Twitter
43:22
occasionally I’ll post things on Twitter
43:23
but I don’t read it it’s just too toxic
43:26
man I get it you know and I know when I
43:29
[ __ ] up and I know when people are mad
43:31
at me when it’s legit and valid and I
43:33
know when they’re mad at me for nonsense
43:35
and I I’m my worst self critic so I
43:38
don’t need other people yelling at me I
43:40
know what I did wrong and stay clear
43:42
healthy I think that’s the only approach
43:44
you can have in this environment I think
43:46
it’s a healthy way to look at it and you
43:48
know I always try and keep myself like
43:50
you figure when when people are coming
43:52
at it there’s probably to be something
43:54
constructive in there
43:55
sometimes energy to like find it and
43:57
sometimes I’m just like I really can
43:59
used yeah sometimes you can’t do it but
44:01
yeah there’s value in criticism it’s
44:03
very important but not too much it’s
44:05
like anything else like you there’s
44:07
value in a little bit of snake venom you
44:09
develop a tolerance but if you get a big
44:11
fat dose you’re dead and it’s in in many
44:14
ways it’s the same with interacting with
44:16
people that are upset with you there’s
44:17
gonna people people that are upset with
44:19
everybody for no reason no matter what
44:21
the story is in the news even if it’s
44:22
clear-cut to you and I there’s going to
44:24
be someone who has a violent opposition
44:25
to that idea it doesn’t mean they’re
44:27
right it doesn’t mean you’re right it
44:29
just means people have a lot of
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different [ __ ] ways of looking at the
44:32
world and if you want to exist in
44:34
conflict in perpetuity stay on Twitter
44:37
and stay on Twitter all day long and
44:38
just argue with people I don’t want to
44:41
do that you know and again it’s not that
44:43
I don’t have any room for improvement
44:45
it’s not that I don’t appreciate or
44:47
accept or recognize the value of
44:48
criticism because I definitely do it’s
44:50
that it’s not healthy it’s not healthy
44:53
for me it’s not it could directly affect
44:55
the kind of content I put out it’s not
44:57
good that’s what I was upset do you feel
45:00
like one of the hardest thing to do is
45:02
to maintain your kind of creative
45:06
barometer so that you don’t let those
45:10
kinds of things when you feel like
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they’re not constructive pulling it too
45:15
far to the outrage world where some
45:18
other things like to maintain that and
45:21
that’s why I think it’s good like what
45:22
you do in terms of Congress is like you
45:22
you do in terms of Congress is like you
45:24
basically say you know I’m gonna do long
45:27
form because that you know feels like at
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least from my perspective the healthiest
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form
45:34
yeah it’s conversation but is even in
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that case people will take long-form
45:40
edit things out of context and then it
45:42
becomes the same problem that we have on
45:45
Twitter and with everything else you get
45:46
these little sound bites so there’s
45:48
little video clips and you don’t
45:50
understand the full context of the
45:52
conversation or what was actually said
45:54
and then people get outraged at that
45:56
it’s you know it’s we are living in a
45:59
very strange time and I believe it’s an
46:01
adolescent stage of communication and I
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think it’s going to give our
46:04
frustrations for this are going to give
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birth to a better full
46:08
and I think one of the things that
46:09
podcasts what it’s in response to the
46:13
popularity of the long-form is in
46:15
response to people being upset with like
46:18
these traditional late-night talk show
46:20
things where there’s a window here with
46:22
one guy on the right and a window here
46:23
with a guy on the left and there’s a
46:24
person in the center and they’re yelling
46:25
at each other and then you cut to
46:26
commercial and you don’t really feel
46:27
like things got resolved so the response
46:30
to that where people gravitate it’s
46:32
three is theater yeah I think he’s was
46:37
it hard for you you know when we came up
46:39
his comments it was also at that point
46:42
like it was sort of a gladiatorial
46:43
environment you know and I remember you
46:45
know the Boston scene you know was
46:48
always like that’s a tough scene yeah
46:50
he’d come up and it was kind of
46:53
gladiatorial and but you had that
46:55
audience and you develop kind of that
46:57
thick skin is it hard to then make that
46:59
switch in your mind to this different
47:03
form that’s so much more considered so
47:06
much less about conquering the stage
47:11
yeah it is about being open and is that
47:15
something that for you what was the
47:19
switch for you from those two forms
47:22
because that’s and that’s an interesting
47:23
switch well in the beginning there
47:26
wasn’t very good switch you know it’s
47:28
like one of the reasons why the early
47:29
episode sucked it’s like I didn’t know
47:31
what I was doing and I didn’t think
47:32
anybody was listening it was just for
47:34
fun and there was a lot of just hanging
47:36
out with comics and just doing what
47:37
comics do if we were at a diner
47:39
somewhere just talking [ __ ] and making
47:41
each other laugh but we were doing it
47:43
and videotaping it and then along the
47:45
way I started interviewing actual
47:47
interesting people and talking to them
47:49
and having conversations and not you
47:51
know I don’t you know I there’s a place
47:53
for comedy and then I don’t I make a
47:56
really big point in never trying to
47:59
force comedy into places where it
48:01
doesn’t belong that’s I do that also
48:04
with the UFC when I do commentary I’m
48:05
never funny there’s no reason to be it’s
48:07
not what my job is you know and then
48:09
when I’m doing a conversation with
48:11
someone I just try to talk I don’t try
48:14
to be a comic I don’t try I just I’m a
48:16
human I want I want to know what they’re
48:18
talking about and I want to I want to
48:20
get them to expand upon their
48:22
ideas as best they can and I want to be
48:24
engaged that’s what I’m trying to do so
48:27
it wasn’t that it wasn’t that was a big
48:30
transition it was that I had to learn
48:31
how to do this thing
48:33
that I didn’t I think was a skill I
48:34
thought that like being on the radio or
48:37
podcasting you know was just talking
48:39
that’s what I thought it so you’re just
48:40
talking and then I realize no no you’re
48:42
talking in a way that people want to
48:45
listen you’re making it entertaining
48:47
you’re keeping your ego in check you’re
48:49
you’re moving the conversation along way
48:51
not being overbearing you’re not letting
48:54
people ramble too much where it’s boring
48:56
you you got to figure out how to juice
48:57
things up and push them and massage them
48:59
and move him around it’s a skill and I
49:02
didn’t think it was a skill and you know
49:04
and like I said that’s one of the
49:06
reasons when my early episodes suck so
49:07
bad there wasn’t given any consideration
49:10
to the fact that people were listening
49:11
it was just fun we’re just doing it for
49:14
ourselves and then along the way and in
49:17
this house he also speaks to the value
49:19
of criticism I read a bunch of criticism
49:21
about what was wrong with the podcast
49:23
you know that I talk we talk over each
49:26
other I talk too much whatever it was
49:28
and I took it to heart and I would think
49:30
about it I’ll go okay I gotta consider
49:32
that people are listening to this this
49:34
isn’t just what I want to say it’s what
49:36
I want people to hear I know how I want
49:38
it just like stand up you wanted the
49:40
joke to easily enter into a person’s
49:42
mind so it’s so well written and so
49:45
perfectly timed that the audience goes
49:47
John Stewart’s got this I’m just gonna
49:49
sit back and let him take my thoughts on
49:51
a ride and that’s that’s what really
49:53
good stand-up is I mean it’s one of the
49:55
reason why dave was able to do that 8:46
49:58
special that way where he has this long
50:02
drawn-out story with so many important
50:06
points and a few laughs thrown in there
50:08
but so engaged and it’s he’s so you just
50:12
go with him you just let him take you
50:14
just let him take you and that’s that’s
50:16
everything whether it’s someone giving a
50:19
speech or you know I mean even like just
50:24
almost every conversation that we have
50:26
it’s there’s a skill to it that we’re
50:28
not taught I mean you know what it’s
50:30
like to talk to someone where they’re
50:31
not even really talking to you they’re
50:33
just kind of waiting for
50:35
them to talk they’re waiting for you to
50:36
finish so they can talk about themselves
50:37
that’s that’s a real problem with people
50:40
and communicating and I had to learn how
50:42
to I learn how to be a better
50:44
communicator really it also had to be
50:46
authentically you because there is now
50:49
like I think the best measure sometimes
50:52
of art or a standard for those things is
50:55
when you you hear things or see things
50:57
that are uniquely that person like
50:59
nobody could have delivered 8:46 good
51:03
day right line perfect yeah it just
51:06
authentically uniquely in your voice
51:10
that you develop authentically uniquely
51:12
and that’s a hard thing to develop it’s
51:13
funny because I feel like that’s what
51:16
stand-up helped to do for me hmm us when
51:19
you do that in front of our eyes even
51:21
I’ll give like boss as an example you
51:22
know when we’d be working next you do
51:24
that that run of mixes like in the
51:26
framingham and the other ones you know
51:27
we go to the the one in Central Boston
51:31
first and I can remember I hadn’t played
51:36
the room before and I was I was a young
51:37
comic and I just don’t let her and I
51:39
think I’ve gotten like a big break and
51:41
so the guys at Nick’s booked me on that
51:44
run to be a headliner my first run on
51:48
those next properties so I came into
51:50
Nicks and they were just gonna throw me
51:53
up on stage and what they did was so
51:57
such a learning experience because you
51:58
kind of think like I’m on Letterman I’m
52:00
just gonna walk into this place I’m
52:01
coming up from your top bed a comedy I’m
52:04
gonna [ __ ] strut my stuff and Nicks
52:06
and they threw up before me I think it
52:10
was Lenny Clarke Kenny Robertson and
52:14
swinging and I walked in the room and it
52:19
was like Dresden like they had so blown
52:23
that room out with brilliance and then
52:25
it was like and from New York a
52:27
Letterman guy John Stehr and it was it
52:32
was like they were clubbing a baby seal
52:35
I was just but man they did that to
52:39
everybody it but so like wonderfully
52:42
humbling yeah he is it makes you realize
52:44
in the moment like all right
52:46
I’ve got a [ __ ] ton of work to do yes
52:48
like okay just murder it brilliant [ __ ]
52:52
and you’re just like that boy yeah if
52:56
you want to be humbled that the Boston
52:59
comedy scene in the late 80s in the
53:01
early 90s that was the place to be it
53:04
was a great place to develop too though
53:05
because it lets you know I mean you
53:08
never want to be overconfidence one of
53:09
the worst things you could be in
53:10
anything and you never want to be lazy
53:12
if you’re especially when you’re
53:14
delivering something to people that are
53:16
actually paying to see you talk right
53:19
like man there’s such a such a important
53:23
connection that you have to those people
53:25
it has got it you’ve got to do the work
53:28
it’s got to be your best version and if
53:31
you’re not doing that and they know
53:33
you’re not doing that they get angry at
53:34
you it’s like it’s the anger that an
53:37
audience has towards a comic that’s
53:38
bombing is very difficult to describe
53:41
you know like they’re mad they can do
53:43
that too they can talk to like why the
53:45
[ __ ] are you talking like if you’re not
53:48
on in you know there’s real valuable
53:50
lessons to that as a crack coming up
53:52
that you do apply to whether it’s
53:54
podcast and you’re hosting any kind of a
53:56
show ya know there’s a fertility to it
53:58
and if you don’t stay on top of it you
54:00
know the energy that room is is a bear
54:03
that will get up and walk out of the
54:04
room if you’re not careful but it’s
54:07
interesting also though now so you’re
54:08
known now stand up when you’re down
54:11
versus stand up when you’re not there’s
54:13
also a difference because you walk into
54:16
a room when they know you and there is
54:18
you know you don’t have to be as sharp
54:22
if you don’t want to because they’re and
54:23
that’s a discipline as well yeah I mean
54:26
that you’re not coasting on maybe some
54:29
goodwill that they had for you based on
54:32
something else that’s very dangerous
54:33
that’s one of the reasons why the Comedy
54:35
Store is so important because when I go
54:37
there it’s not my crowd it’s my crowd
54:39
and you know Anthony Jeselnik crowd and
54:43
Ali Wong’s crowd and like there’s a lot
54:45
of people there coming to see everybody
54:47
and so and you’re going on after all
54:49
these murderers so it’s when you’re when
54:52
you’re in that kind of an environment
54:53
you sort of have to dot your i’s and
54:55
cross your T’s you got to do the work
54:57
right are you still really involved like
54:59
because for me you know once I did
55:02
started the show and once I had kids
55:04
like I’ll really get to the clubs
55:06
anymore so it almost feels like old
55:09
timers day when I show up showed up he’s
55:13
good you know but I wish I I wish I
55:17
could get out there more and every night
55:18
it would be you know you’re like 8
55:19
o’clock I’m like I should I should just
55:21
drive up to the city and go work the
55:23
cellar and then my wife will be like
55:25
bachelor in paradise is on all right
55:27
yeah yeah well the way I had been
55:31
setting it up at the store was all my
55:33
sets would be after 10 o’clock for the
55:35
most part except rarely rarely I would
55:38
do an 8 o’clock show so everybody would
55:40
be in bed so I’d leave my house and my
55:42
set wouldn’t be probably until 11:00 so
55:45
I’d leave my house and everybody’d be
55:46
asleep and it was perfect and I just and
55:49
I that’s also my favorite time to write
55:51
to I would come home from the store and
55:53
everybody’d be asleep fire up a joint
55:55
and sit in front of laptop and come up
55:57
with some ideas and it’s I had it down
55:59
to a science before the the lockdown
56:01
right has the lockdown mess your
56:06
creature I don’t know I mean I mean my
56:10
comedy routine it certainly has I don’t
56:12
know I mean I’m doing my first shows
56:14
this weekend in Houston I don’t know
56:15
what the [ __ ] gonna happen I don’t
56:17
know if I know how to do it anymore
56:18
that’s gonna be very strange like you
56:23
couldn’t go more into the belly of the
56:24
beast like right juicy yeah like it’s
56:26
like being on the surface of being like
56:28
it’s off your charts with this thing
56:29
yeah I’m gonna go on stage with two
56:30
bottles of Lysol and just you know girls
56:33
do that thing when they spray perfume
56:34
and they walk through it I do that with
56:37
Lysol on stage I mean I think it’s
56:42
really critical to strengthen your
56:44
immune system and I do a lot of things
56:45
to do that and I think that’s something
56:47
that people need to really concentrate
56:48
on and I really wish that our elected
56:50
officials were talking more about that
56:52
and having speeches with doctors and
56:55
doing the office you never shall Obama
56:58
tried to do like try to put kale in
57:01
something and everybody was like what
57:02
I’m sorry go back to tater tots
57:08
yeah I mean just the science on vitamin
57:12
supplementation and how critical it is
57:14
for your immune system particularly
57:15
vitamin D that is that could literally
57:17
save lives and that knowledge is not
57:20
secret that knowledge is out there you
57:22
did those those episodes on the game
57:24
changers the James was and that was it
57:28
was fascinating it was because I watched
57:30
that movie and you know nutrition is
57:33
also like diet is such an important part
57:35
of what we do to ourselves that we that
57:38
we don’t think and especially in a time
57:39
of kovat where so many people like to
57:43
say like when you see what this does the
57:45
people with type 1 diabetes are four
57:47
with other kinds of you know conditions
57:51
that might be caused from either poor
57:53
diet or lack of access to know healthier
57:56
options and things like that you realize
57:58
like [ __ ] we put ourselves in a very
58:01
vulnerable position
58:02
yeah very vulnerable yeah we Andrew
58:05
Schultz had a really good point he said
58:07
this this pandemic highlighted the
58:10
vulnerabilities both in our economic
58:11
system and in our health system like the
58:15
way we are as human beings the what
58:17
who’s vulnerable the obese people people
58:20
with diabetes older folks I mean it
58:22
highlights all these issues where you
58:25
know we we really need to concentrate on
58:28
for the future if you want more people
58:29
to survive this there is there are
58:32
strategies that can be implemented and
58:34
we really we really need to talk to
58:36
people about just being normal stuff
58:38
being D hiding well hydrated making sure
58:41
you’re not dehydrated well rested teach
58:44
people meditation techniques is not hard
58:46
to learn some breathing exercises that
58:48
have been actually proven to increase
58:51
your immune function it’s not hard to
58:53
teach people about vitamin D and
58:55
supplementing it if you can’t go outside
58:56
so how do you get people then to take
58:59
action because here’s the other thing
59:01
you remember like those lives are hard
59:02
yeah you’re dealing when you’re talking
59:04
about like we talked about earlier like
59:06
economic inequality you know it’s hard
59:10
to go into an area where they feel like
59:12
[ __ ] I don’t know where my next meal is
59:13
coming from and be like so here’s what
59:16
we’re gonna do we’re just gonna sit and
59:17
breathe quiet these five minutes and I
59:19
know
59:20
it’s a really difficult it’s like
59:23
hierarchy of needs you know yeah how do
59:26
you how do you work into the idea that
59:30
those types of theories are actually
59:33
important to the betterment of like and
59:36
the stability of the larger part of
59:38
their life when they’re fighting so hard
59:40
just to stay afloat yeah it’s a that’s
59:43
an interesting point and I think what
59:46
you have to do is it has to be first of
59:48
all told by people who are doing it
59:51
successfully so people that are doing it
59:54
that like maybe were struggling with
59:55
their immune system and turned it around
59:58
and got healthier like those people are
60:00
the ones that the people that are in a
60:01
bad position right now they really
60:03
respond to when it comes to you live
60:05
there’s an emotional connection with if
60:07
you see some guide is in the cover of
60:08
Men’s Health magazine he’s ripped and he
60:10
starts talking about fitness you like
60:11
get the [ __ ] out of here I can’t relate
60:13
to you I’m never gonna look like that
60:14
but if you see someone who is in the
60:16
situation that you’re in currently and
60:19
they turned it around
60:21
well that me but listen I’ve been
60:24
working out my whole life I’ve never
60:25
stopped okay but if someone is fat I’m
60:29
talking from their perspective and they
60:30
see some guy who’s really thin and
60:33
chiseled then it’s not going to make
60:34
sense to them that they could ever be
60:36
like that but if they see someone
60:38
there’s a lot of really fantastic photos
60:40
and and and Instagram and Facebook pages
60:43
online where you can get inspiration
60:45
from someone who actually stuck to a
60:47
diet actually stuck to an exercise
60:49
routine and then speaks really well
60:51
about how much it improved the way they
60:54
feel their emotions their depression all
60:56
the aspects of their life and that’s I
60:58
think one of the more like David Goggins
61:00
is a great example that I use him all
61:02
the time because he’s this incredibly
61:04
inspirational guy who was a Navy SEAL
61:07
and at one point in time he’s 300 pounds
61:09
he was drinking milkshakes and he puts
61:10
those pictures of himself on Instagram
61:12
all the time just to let people know hey
61:15
I’m not some alien I’m a person who was
61:18
weak just like you I was lazy I got fat
61:21
and then I figured out how to train my
61:23
mind to be disciplined and I’d figured
61:25
out how to be happier and I think that
61:27
that’s really important for people to
61:29
see that it’s we’re not in a static
61:31
State we’re all in a constant state of
61:34
him
61:34
provement and growth hopefully or
61:35
deterioration if you’re not careful but
61:38
does that you know the thing that I
61:40
worry about those sometimes is similarly
61:43
to economic distress does it make a
61:47
person’s health
61:49
be a function of their virtue does it
61:52
does it take something that is beyond a
61:54
lot of people’s control that isn’t that
61:57
a little bit of like a matter if you
61:59
just pull your pants up you could do it
62:02
like no it’s not it’s known it is the
62:04
way I know what you’re saying but it’s
62:06
not it’s I did this and I can show you
62:09
how I did it and maybe you can do it too
62:11
that’s what it is we don’t have to look
62:12
at every success is somehow or another
62:14
thumbing in the face of people who can’t
62:16
achieve a similar goal but there are
62:20
enough people out there that can that we
62:23
should concentrate on that because I
62:24
think it’ll have a significant
62:25
improvement on the overall health of us
62:27
again as a community and I think this is
62:30
really how we have to look at the United
62:33
States and human beings on earth in
62:35
general we have to look at each other as
62:37
a bunch of people that could very well
62:39
be neighbors we’re community and if
62:41
you’re my friend and you were fat and
62:43
you were willing to listen and I used to
62:46
be fat too and I can tell you hey man
62:48
this is what I did I stopped drinking
62:50
soda was there are people that are I
62:53
mean I understand the point there and
62:56
I’m okay I’m an advocate for plant-based
62:58
stuff I think that’s it’s a healthy way
63:00
to do it
63:01
but obviously eating is such a personal
63:03
experience that I hesitate to ever
63:05
impart that in any other way but I just
63:10
feel like sometimes for people it’s
63:15
almost more debilitating for that
63:18
mentality of this is how you doing just
63:21
gotta get your [ __ ] together and go
63:23
through this way I do think you have to
63:25
present more options but know that it’s
63:28
maybe more complicated and people can be
63:31
overweight or whatever and be healthy
63:33
it’s not necessarily you know something
63:38
that’s corrosive to them but well it is
63:40
though being overweight is necessarily
63:43
corrosive it’s not healthy for anybody
63:44
it’s less healthy
63:47
and being at an optimal weight that’s
63:50
what’s important it gives you some sort
63:52
of a burden
63:53
whether that burden is sustainable is
63:55
debatable maybe for some people it is
63:57
for some people it isn’t look some
63:58
people can smoke until they’re 90 and
64:00
they’re fine
64:01
other people pancreatic cancer like
64:03
Hicks and died in their 30s it it
64:06
depends
64:07
wildly on the person but the idea that
64:10
you can be fat and you can be healthy I
64:12
think is a dangerous narrative because
64:14
you’re telling people listen don’t
64:16
improve you don’t have to you can be
64:19
healthy and be obese at the same time
64:21
but the medical science does not really
64:24
support that the more weight you lose up
64:28
to a certain point you know but when you
64:30
if you get to a healthy body mass your
64:32
body works better it’s really simple it
64:34
doesn’t tax your immune system as much
64:36
doesn’t tax your heart as much it’s
64:38
better for you it’s better for your
64:40
joints it doesn’t mean that we should
64:44
ignore people that are overweight and
64:46
you know and pretend that you know that
64:49
they’re they’re not worthy or they’re
64:51
not they’re not good folks I have a very
64:55
emotional because I feel protective
64:58
you’re nice over people and I I just
65:01
yeah I think you sweetheart it’s great
65:04
that’s a good thing no it is it’s the
65:07
the reason why you’re thinking like this
65:09
because we’re talking right we’re
65:12
talking about people doing well and you
65:13
like [ __ ] what about the people can’t do
65:15
well let’s reach out to them and offer
65:17
them an olive branch and yeah I get it
65:18
man I guess you’re right you’re right
65:20
look I have very good friends that are
65:22
morbidly obese and they don’t want to
65:24
listen and there’s nothing I can do I
65:26
just hug them when I see them and you
65:27
know I hope that one day they come to
65:29
grips with it and they change but they
65:31
don’t have to you know you you live this
65:33
life for a certain amount of time and if
65:35
you want to live it eating cake and
65:36
drinking beer that’s you you do whatever
65:39
you want we’re all on the end in the end
65:41
we’re all gonna be in the ground it’s
65:42
all pointless conversation sort out
65:50
optimistically take in this country and
65:52
turning it around and a very fatalistic
65:55
officer
65:56
well that’s true the end in the end
65:57
we’re all dying
65:58
that’s how that story ends we’re all
66:00
dead so the the story with what I don’t
66:04
want people to do is suffer and I want
66:05
people to feel better while they’re
66:06
alive and I think that’s something
66:08
that’s missed in the message of health
66:10
improvement like you will actually have
66:12
a better experience on earth and it’ll
66:15
help you mitigate stress it’ll help you
66:17
it’ll help you have better relationships
66:19
because you won’t be burdened down with
66:21
a lot of like anxiety and stress that
66:23
literally comes from a physical release
66:25
of energy I look at the body like a
66:27
battery and I think that some people’s
66:29
batteries just overflowing with
66:31
corrosive material because they never
66:33
exert it
66:34
they never blow it out a battery a
66:35
battery is a bad analogy but there’s
66:37
there’s a certain amount of physical
66:39
requirement I think your body has to has
66:42
and if you don’t give that that body
66:44
that physical exertion it doesn’t feel
66:46
good we’re we’ve evolved to hunt and
66:49
gather and build homes and survive from
66:52
predators and we carry around all the
66:54
burdens in our body of this past and
66:57
there’s no getting around that and you
66:59
could either deny it and just deal with
67:01
all the tension or you can exert your
67:03
energy find some way to calm your mind
67:06
and live a life that’s better let me ask
67:10
you a question egg because now this is
67:11
I’m wondering because you’re talking
67:14
about sort of evolving to a place where
67:17
your body and like when you had James on
67:19
and he was talking about babies do you
67:23
have moral qualms about meat or do you
67:26
not like you said well you know we’re
67:28
hunters and and that like is that ever
67:30
an issue for you or is it purely a
67:32
health issue or there’s both things
67:35
there’s a health issue there is a moral
67:37
qualms with factory farming there’s not
67:39
a moral qualms qualms with health with
67:41
hunting because I I know the reality of
67:43
the life of a deer if you don’t kill
67:46
that deer it’s gonna die a horrible
67:48
death from a wolf or a coyote or a
67:50
mountain lion or whatever the [ __ ] gets
67:52
ahold of it
67:53
it’s got Ruiz to death it’s going you
67:55
can either die quickly by the hand of a
67:57
person you respect that life and it’ll
67:59
nurture your body and the bodies of your
68:01
family our problem is a disconnection
68:03
more than anything and let me tell you
68:05
something when the kovat lockdown
68:06
happened I got more requests from
68:08
friends and more requests for
68:09
information about hunting and gun
68:11
ownership how do I
68:12
protect myself and how do I feed myself
68:13
and how do I grow food those were three
68:15
really big questions that I kept getting
68:17
from people it’s fine I have such a
68:19
different perspective on it in terms of
68:22
just the the relationship between myself
68:28
and I didn’t house a big meat-eater was
68:30
a big like deli guy pastrami and corned
68:32
beef and all that my wife got into
68:35
rescue and these types of things and we
68:37
ended over the farm with pigs and goats
68:40
and sheep and things like that and it
68:44
became untenable for me to make that
68:47
decision you know that that sort of that
68:50
decision of I think you’ll be better off
68:53
if I kill you and then it became it was
68:58
something I could no longer manage once
69:01
I knew the process of it and that it was
69:05
a hard it’s been a very hard process for
69:09
me it’s only been about four or five
69:10
years how was your health I mean I’m an
69:14
old Jew so baseline pretty much we don’t
69:20
age well to begin with how old do you
69:23
know John we age a bit like avocados
69:25
when you leave them out
69:26
yeah I’m 57 I’m 52 so or in similar
69:32
boats similar boat you know but I mean
69:36
it’s hard to know I feel good you know
69:39
if you look at markers like cholesterol
69:41
or blood pressure those things it’s
69:44
better but like you say I don’t I don’t
69:48
know enough about how the body processes
69:52
to know if I’m I feel better the numbers
69:56
say I’m better but you know genetics I’m
70:00
sure plays a part in it as well but the
70:03
funny thing is like I don’t even think
70:06
about it anymore
70:06
like it just don’t even think about it
70:08
anymore well let’s get into a custom and
70:12
once your gut biome changes you know you
70:14
really get accustomed to whatever you’re
70:16
eating good or bad unfortunately and
70:18
that’s one of the reasons why people
70:19
have such a hard time quitting sugar and
70:20
bread and pasta and things along those
70:22
lines so your body just craves it that’s
70:24
what it wants we start eating healthier
70:26
food your body does great that can go
70:28
off of meat and still be incredibly
70:30
unhealthy like you know you can be vegan
70:32
and just exist on Lay’s potato chips
70:35
yeah and so it is you know and it’s a
70:38
tougher Road and the world is certainly
70:41
not it’s not built for that and it
70:44
certainly feels a little bit of a
70:49
narrower lane that you have to do and I
70:52
also think it’s an incredibly emotional
70:54
topic yeah like very little that’s as
70:56
emotional and personal as what people
71:00
put in their bodies and how they eat and
71:01
what they do and I’m always very
71:03
respectful because I also I got no leg
71:05
to stand on man I like this is what I’m
71:07
doing it feels better for me but I I
71:11
always say like but it’s such a personal
71:16
and individual choice than you
71:18
everybody’s got to do for themselves
71:20
the only thing I would say is like I do
71:22
think it’s important for people to get
71:24
educated on it to read up on like you
71:27
say factory farming well what might be
71:30
the you know nutritional boss of it or
71:33
what are some of the things that are in
71:35
it or what maybe is it going to do to
71:37
our community when you know we use so
71:40
many antibiotics mm-hmm and the meat
71:42
production ah you know that’s the only
71:45
thing I say is like try and educate
71:47
yourself to how your meal gets to your
71:50
table that’s why I’m a huge advocate for
71:53
like local farming and agriculture
71:55
because those are the people they’re
71:57
just growing their food and they’re
71:58
bringing it to your table I find that
72:00
incredible but but I also don’t I try
72:04
not to take a position of judgment on
72:07
people because I feel like that’s unfair
72:09
but I think that’s very wise of you and
72:11
I think that there’s a lot of people
72:13
that share your position on animal death
72:15
and I think that’s one of the more
72:16
promising aspects of laboratory created
72:18
meat as long as it can be done in a way
72:19
that’s actually going to be healthy for
72:21
us it seems like there’s some real
72:23
science behind that and they’re very
72:25
very close to releasing that a large
72:27
scale so it would be actual meat that
72:29
doesn’t come with death which is really
72:31
fascinating oh really yeah yeah you’re
72:34
talking about like the the the one that
72:36
they had I saw like it’s a tank
72:37
and he pulls out it’s like $20,000 for a
72:40
chicken breast they did that yeah it was
72:42
really expensive at one point in time
72:44
but they’ve gotten it down to a burger
72:46
now like they can actually make a burger
72:48
out of this stuff and they feel like as
72:51
this if this technology improves they
72:53
essentially flesh when it’s not a would
72:57
you if you could if you could still have
73:00
the the part of me that you like but it
73:03
came without death do you think you
73:05
would make that switch or is that
73:06
something that well I certainly would
73:08
with domestic animals the the difference
73:10
between that and hunting there’s there’s
73:12
a conservation aspect of it one thing
73:15
that leads to protection of wildlife
73:18
habitat is actually the money that comes
73:20
from hunting tags and hunting equipment
73:23
there’s that there’s also the the type
73:28
of relationship you have with your food
73:31
when you actually work very hard and
73:34
hunt it and kill it is very different
73:36
than buying food from a store and I
73:40
would say similar in a similar way
73:42
growing food when you go to Whole Foods
73:45
sometimes you really got to stop that
73:47
you know there’s there’s a lot that goes
73:48
into the trip the whole yeah it’s a good
73:52
parking spot that’s right yeah I get it
73:55
growing your own food in your backyard
73:57
is very satisfying to and I would say to
74:00
people like that’s a microcosm I guess
74:03
it’s a very micro form of what it feels
74:05
like to hunt an animal and then eat it
74:07
and feed your family for you know if I
74:08
shoot an elk I eat it literally for a
74:11
year so one animal death equals like a
74:14
year of my meals and you know there’s
74:19
also the moral high-ground position you
74:21
know I think a lot of people love to
74:24
look at the moral high ground of eating
74:27
vegetables and only eating vegetables as
74:29
being a superior way to live their life
74:31
and that’s that’s a good decision I
74:33
understand where you’re coming from I
74:35
understand that there’s people that look
74:37
at life very differently than me they
74:40
maybe don’t have the sort of fatalistic
74:42
perspective even though it’s respectful
74:44
I have a very fatalistic perspective
74:46
when it comes to just all organic
74:48
organisms competing
74:50
for resources and for life these animals
74:54
I mean I’ve run into them when they’ve
74:55
killed each other I’ve seen animals that
74:57
have been taken out by other animals
74:59
I’ve come across their bodies torn apart
75:00
by wolves in in the woods it’s a wild
75:03
wild thing out there man and I think
75:05
we’re so insulated by it in the in our
75:08
culture of today that it’s one of the
75:10
reasons why veganism and all these
75:11
things are becoming so attractive I
75:13
would hope that along with that we’re
75:15
gonna be nicer to each other that we’re
75:17
gonna be we’re gonna grow to be a kinder
75:19
human race I really I really hope you
75:21
that yeah because I think it’s about
75:24
consideration you know for me I think
75:26
was there was a certain part of
75:28
consciousness that I never ascribed to
75:31
animals to some extent I mean it’s funny
75:33
because I always thought of myself as oh
75:34
I you know I love animals I you know
75:36
always had dogs and cats you know you’d
75:38
find a bird with a broken wing just
75:39
thinking the boss and two weeks later he
75:41
flies away and you’re a girl but I never
75:44
really ascribed like individuality to
75:46
them and I think backwards the change
75:48
for me was interacting in in an
75:53
individual way when I get firm on the
75:56
font yeah you know I always tell my
75:59
brother once once we named them that’s
76:01
five yeah you watch them like their
76:04
plate though they’ll play or they and it
76:06
just changed my relationship to what I
76:12
wanted it to be with animals and it just
76:16
made it untenable in that moment for me
76:19
but I truly understand like that that is
76:23
in a really individualized personalized
76:28
experience that that that I made and
76:32
like I said I would love it for people
76:34
to make that connection because I think
76:36
it’s profound there is there is
76:38
something about that connection for
76:39
people that when they do see it you know
76:41
it’s funny I’ll talk about the pigs and
76:44
they’ll be like what you know they’re
76:48
they just eat everything you’re like no
76:49
they’re really playful they’re smart
76:51
don’t go nuts you do belly rubs yeah
76:54
it’s it’s but that was shocking I didn’t
76:56
know that they’d stop oh it’s like a
76:59
blob but beings
77:02
we’re talking about nature John and
77:04
there’s nothing natural about a farm
77:06
that’s part of the problem I mean it’s
77:07
all it’s an animal prison and they’re
77:09
domesticated because we give them food
77:11
and we kind of remove the the natural
77:13
fear that they would have of any you
77:15
know eyeball facing forward predator
77:18
which is what we are you know what their
77:21
health like what having our farm with
77:25
sheep and goats and pigs and they’re all
77:27
rescues is like having a nursing home
77:30
like you can’t believe the fragility of
77:34
factory farmed animals like they are to
77:38
be sick like pneumonia like genetically
77:43
the design to gain too much weight for
77:46
their legs it really is you know the
77:50
island of misfit took like they’ve
77:51
genetically modified or done whatever
77:53
they’ve done and and the health of these
77:57
animals that are in our food supply yeah
78:00
that our mainstay of our food supply is
78:02
really suspect
78:04
yeah that’s why nursing them yeah that’s
78:07
why I prefer hunting the when if you’re
78:09
eating an animal that’s a wild animal
78:12
you’re eating an athlete I mean they’re
78:14
they’re sinewy and thick and they’re
78:16
strong and they survived and there’s so
78:19
much more nutrient-dense
78:21
when you’re when you’re talking about
78:23
factory farmed animals you’re talking
78:24
about I mean well factory fired animals
78:26
is the worst version of what human
78:29
beings are capable of they were capable
78:30
of ignoring suffering to the point we
78:32
lock them all in warehouses they’re
78:34
pissed goes down in a tunnel and fills a
78:36
small lake up and they’ve flown over
78:38
these places with drones it’s horrific
78:39
right the pig farms in particularly
78:41
they’re horrific but when you’re talking
78:44
about what you’re doing on your farm
78:47
like of course you can’t eat those
78:48
things they’re your pets that would be I
78:50
mean you’re naming them and flying them
78:52
and touching them but I extrapolate that
78:55
now so my I think what happened was I
78:57
went all right that’s in the same way
79:00
that like I love my dog but if you have
79:03
a dog I wouldn’t kill your dog running
79:06
eat because I look at dogs now in a
79:09
different way so I think I extrapolate
79:10
to the
79:13
animal kingdom in a way that different I
79:15
had it I feel like because of my wife
79:17
and she’s been she’s a much kinder
79:20
smarter version of me so because of her
79:26
kind of showing me that relationship and
79:28
experiencing myself like it’s just
79:30
changed the way that I view it and
79:33
that’s been and it kind of takes us back
79:35
around to the earlier part of the
79:37
conversation because when you think
79:38
about animal agriculture and you talk
79:39
about those hog farms where are they
79:41
located they’re located in the poorest
79:43
neighborhoods right they locate any
79:46
environmental damage that they do is
79:48
also damage that’s done to poor rural
79:52
communities that live around them now
79:55
I’m not suggesting that there’s not
79:56
economic there’s an economic incentive
79:59
and an industry around it and certainly
80:02
not you know you don’t just end
80:04
industries but reform again like it it
80:10
certainly Georgia P Bush said this he
80:14
was talking about Donald Trump because
80:15
I’m gonna support Donald Trump because
80:18
Donald Trump is the only thing standing
80:20
between America and socialism and I was
80:24
like the only thing standing between
80:26
American socialism is an inability to
80:29
meaningfully reform capitalism and it’s
80:32
more damaging effects and if we can’t do
80:35
that then the people take to the streets
80:38
I think reform like Bernie was talking
80:43
about those other guys that will save
80:45
capitalism that will save democracy by
80:48
showing that we recognize that there is
80:51
collateral damage to the systems that we
80:54
use to gain wealth and to gain power and
80:57
if we can reform those systems
81:00
meaningfully for the people who suffer
81:03
most terribly under them we save it but
81:08
if we can the best deal gets stormed
81:11
like that’s just what Kennedy say if you
81:13
make peaceful evolution impossible you
81:15
make violent revolution inevitable yeah
81:17
so we I think at some point we have to
81:20
demonstrate the
81:21
we’ll and the stamina to be able to
81:24
attack these problems and that’s why I’m
81:26
holding Joe Rogan ah yeah no I think
81:31
everyone agrees but everyone feels like
81:33
their hands are tied and again I think
81:35
that’s one of the reasons why these
81:37
protests and just this this whole
81:39
explosion after George Floyd has been so
81:43
transformative I think because people
81:45
recognize like this is a real moment of
81:47
change and of course opportunists and
81:49
looters and all kinds of other crazy
81:50
[ __ ] happened along the way but it’s it
81:53
speaks to the fact that there’s so many
81:55
people in street it’s beats it speaks to
81:57
this this like we can actually do
81:59
something now we’ve got momentum let’s
82:01
keep it moving
82:02
are you hopeful yes I’m always hopeful
82:04
I’m very optimistic even though I have a
82:06
fatalistic perspective exact same
82:10
in these terrible times how do you
82:12
remain Oakland I’m like because better
82:15
people outnumber shitty people yes a
82:17
long shot they dish that’s just the
82:20
truth there was some time powerless
82:23
sometimes we may act out of fear or
82:26
resource part whatever that is good
82:28
better people outnumber shady people by
82:31
launch and we’re in an adolescent stage
82:34
of our evolution of as a civilization
82:37
it’s growing and changing there’s never
82:39
been a civilization like us today and
82:41
we’re growing and changing to try to
82:44
suit our real sensibilities and to try
82:47
to to try to get better at this [ __ ]
82:49
thing and not just accept this old crazy
82:52
corrupt structure that’s existed forever
82:55
thank you yeah you put a little fire in
82:58
my belly like this like I really enjoyed
83:03
I’ve really enjoyed the conversation
83:05
this is man I always enjoy talking to
83:07
you I appreciate you very much and I
83:09
don’t get to see you enough all right my
83:11
friend and hopefully when this all ends
83:14
everybody can gather again at the you
83:16
know at the store and had do a good set
83:19
and talk some shared with each other and
83:20
have some fun let’s do it brother
83:22
take care my friend and good luck with
83:23
your film irresistible it’s out when now
83:28
tomorrow tomorrow please jump
83:33
thank you my brother thank you sir bye
83:34
[Applause]
83:38
[Music]
83:39
[Applause]
83:44
[Music]

Joe Rogan: Our Media is in an Adolescent Stage

45:21
that’s why I think it’s good like what
you do in terms of coversation is like you
basically say you know I’m gonna do long
form because that you know feels like at
least from my perspective the healthiest
form
yeah it’s conversation but is even in
that case people will take long-form
edit things out of context and then it
becomes the same problem that we have on
Twitter and with everything else you get
these little sound bites so there’s
little video clips and you don’t
understand the full context of the
conversation or what was actually said
and then people get outraged at that
it’s you know it’s we are living in a
very strange time and I believe it’s an
adolescent stage of communication and I
think it’s going to give our
frustrations for this are going to give
birth to a better full

and I think one of the things that
podcasts what it’s in response to the
popularity of the long-form is in
response to people being upset with like
these traditional late-night talk show
things where there’s a window here with
one guy on the right and a window here
with a guy on the left and there’s a
person in the center and they’re yelling
at each other and then you cut to
commercial and you don’t really feel
like things got resolved so the response
to that where people gravitate it’s
three is theater yeah I think he’s was
it hard for you you know when we came up
his comments it was also at that point
like it was sort of a gladiatorial
environment you know and I remember you
know the Boston scene you know was
always like that’s a tough scene yeah
he’d come up and it was kind of
gladiatorial and but you had that
audience and you develop kind of that
thick skin is it hard to then make that
switch in your mind to this different
form that’s so much more considered so
much less about conquering the stage
yeah it is about being open and is that
47:15
something that for you what was the
47:19
switch for you from those two forms
47:22
because that’s and that’s an interesting
47:23
switch well in the beginning there
47:26
wasn’t very good switch you know it’s
47:28
like one of the reasons why the early
47:29
episode sucked it’s like I didn’t know
47:31
what I was doing and I didn’t think
47:32
anybody was listening it was just for
47:34
fun and there was a lot of just hanging
47:36
out with comics and just doing what
47:37
comics do if we were at a diner
47:39
somewhere just talking shit and making
47:41
each other laugh but we were doing it
47:43
and videotaping it and then along the
47:45
way I started interviewing actual
47:47
interesting people and talking to them
47:49
and having conversations and not you
47:51
know I don’t you know I there’s a place
47:53
for comedy and then I don’t I make a
47:56
really big point in never trying to
47:59
force comedy into places where it
48:01
doesn’t belong that’s I do that also
48:04
with the UFC when I do commentary I’m
48:05
never funny there’s no reason to be it’s
48:07
not what my job is you know and then
48:09
when I’m doing a conversation with
48:11
someone I just try to talk I don’t try
48:14
to be a comic I don’t try I just I’m a
48:16
human I want I want to know what they’re
48:18
talking about and I want to I want to
48:20
get them to expand upon their
48:22
ideas as best they can and I want to be
48:24
engaged that’s what I’m trying to do so
48:27
it wasn’t that it wasn’t that was a big
48:30