86:48yeah so there’s something in there86:49there’s something that interacts with86:51the physical structure of your body and86:52and and I would say there isn’t so86:57that’s the whoo-whoo version is that the87:02brain itself and the body the physical87:04so this this this spiritual self you are87:08merely an antenna that’s tuning into the87:11the the great consciousness of the87:14universe but why but then you have to87:17answer what it we know what we are made87:20of yes oh we know how those particles87:22behave and interact so so why do the87:25particles not in any way interact with87:29that stuff because we interact we don’t87:31if that’s true we don’t only just87:33interact with it we interact extremely87:36strongly with it we’re interacting with87:38it now yeah every movement I make is the87:41interaction between those every matter87:43yeah yes what everything if I move my87:46fingers everything that I’m doing right87:48is an interaction between that stuff and87:50me so it’s a very strong interaction87:52with matter but we don’t see it in all87:55our precision measurement well the87:58answer for that dancer is because it’s88:00not there the answer is Jesus and you88:02can’t measure God that may be an answer88:06but the point is you as we talked about88:08earlier with absolute space yeah if you88:10can’t measure it yeah it’s not there hmm>> Can you measure consciousness?88:14right it’s but for whatever reason for88:19people there is some incredible88:21motivation to find a divine something or88:27another that’s there’s something greater88:30than this physical being there’s88:32something what do you think that is like88:34what is that compulsion we we’ve already88:36sort of talked a bit about it I think it88:39goes to the the hearts of this question88:43of what it means to be human88:44mmm88:44so I would say that being human the88:49answer to the it’s not the answer to the88:53meaning but it an answer would be we are88:58small finite beings right which are just89:02clusters of atoms as we said before89:05they’re very rare but we understand89:07roughly how they how they came to be and89:10we have a limited amount of time not89:13actually unfortunately but because of89:16the laws of nature that the laws of89:18nature forbid us to be immortal89:20they-they-they immortality’s ruled out89:24by the laws of physics but also actually89:28what’s interesting about if you look at89:30the basic physics of the universe going89:32from the Big Bang to where we are today89:34then the physics is driven by the fact89:37that the universe began in an extremely89:40ordered state so it was a very highly89:42ordered system and it is tending towards89:46a more disordered system at the moment89:48and that’s called the second law of89:49thermodynamics and it’s that basic89:51common-sense thing that things go to89:54[ __ ] basically the second law of89:56thermodynamics what we strongly suspect89:59and and I would say know is that in that90:05process of going from order to disorder90:08complexity emerges naturally for a brief90:12period of time so it’s a natural part of90:15the evolution of the universe that you90:17get appeared in time when there’s90:18complexity in the universe so stars and90:21planets and galaxies and life and90:23civilizations but they are they exist90:26because the universe is decaying not in90:29spite of the fact the universe is90:31decaying so our existence in that sort90:34of picture is necessarily finite and90:37necessarily time limited and it is a90:40remarkable thing that that complexity90:43has got so far that there are things in90:45the universe that can think and feel and90:47explore it and I think that is the90:50answer if you want an answer to the90:51meaning of it all it’s that that you are90:54part of the universe because of the way90:57the laws of nature work90:58you are allowed to exist but you’re91:01allowed to exist for a temporary or a91:03small amount of time in a possibly91:05infinite universe91:07one of the biggest mind-blowing moments91:11I think of my limited comprehension of91:14what it means to be a living being was91:16when I found out that carbon and all the91:20stuff that makes us has to come out of a91:23dying star yeah like there that alone91:25that there’s this very strange cycle of91:28these enormous fireballs that Forge the91:33material that makes Brian Cox yeah like91:37what that that one alone that there is91:40some strange loop of biological life91:47that comes from stars which is like the91:51most elemental thing that we can observe91:53we see these things in this can we see91:54the Sun in the sky it’s this91:56all-powerful ball of fire91:59yeah and that that is where the building92:02blocks for a person come from and then92:04is it so and they will be from the92:07carbon atoms in our body that you’re92:08right they all got made in styles92:10because there were none of it at the Big92:12Bang92:13there’s only hydrogen and helium tiny92:15bit of lithium to be precise but nothing92:17else and so it was all made in stars and92:20it’s probably from different styles you92:22know the atoms in your body they’re not92:23all from one star that cooks it and then92:25died there’ll be a mixture of stuff from92:27many stars in your body now and I agree92:31with you the what more do you want you92:33know when I see people who got I want92:35more than that I want you know it was92:37there must be more to it92:39what do you mean the the we have we have92:41we were the ingredients now bodies were92:44assembled in their hearts of long dead92:46stars over billions of years and have92:48assembled themselves spontaneously into92:50temporary structures that can think and92:53feel and explore and then those92:55structures will decay away again at some92:57point and in a very far future there’ll92:59be no structures left so there we are we93:02exist in this little window when we can93:03observe this magnificent universe why do93:06you want any more insults I think to93:09people I think a lot of people aren’t93:11aware of93:12all the all the information right and93:14then I think on top of it for some93:16people it’s just it’s so overwhelming93:20you know this this concept of 13.893:24billion years of everything to get to93:27this point that we’re at right now it’s93:29so overwhelming that they want to93:30simplify it you want to put it into some93:33sort of a fable structure something93:36where it’s something that’s very common93:39and similar and familiar yeah I I agree93:43and and but I think that’s the the it’s93:48the the the journey that we go on the93:50real treasure I think is in that journey93:54of trying to face the incomprehensible93:56yes it’s it’s in that realization that94:00it’s almost it’s it’s almost impossible94:03to believe that we exist that’s that’s94:08that’s a wonderful thing yeah and I94:11think that that’s what I think you miss94:12out I think if you decide to simplify it94:15because you don’t want to face that you94:17don’t have faced the infinity that’s out94:19there in front of us and you don’t want94:22to face those stories as you said that94:24you look at your finger and its94:26ingredients was cooked in multiple stars94:29over billions of years that that’s a to94:32me a joyous and powerful thing to think94:35about yes and I think you’re missing out94:37if you don’t want to face that well I94:39think the distribution of information94:41has changed so radically over the last94:43couple hundred years and particularly94:44over the last twenty that you’re seeing94:47these trends now where more people are94:49inclined to abandon a lot of the even if94:54you remain religious or remain you keep94:59a sought or a belief in a higher power95:02people are more inclined to entertain95:06these concepts of science and to take in95:09the understanding of what has been95:11observed and documented and written95:13about among scholars and academics and95:17there’s more there’s more people95:19accepting that have you look at the95:20number of agnostic people now as opposed95:22to twenty thirty years ago it’s it’s95:24it’s rising95:25it’s changing and I think there’s also95:27because of you and because of Neil95:30deGrasse Tyson and you know Sean Carroll95:33and all these other people that are95:34public intellectuals that are discussing95:35this kind of stuff people like myself95:37have a far greater understanding of this95:40then I think people did 30 40 years ago95:42yeah and that trend is continuing I95:44think in a very good direction yeah I95:47mean I don’t you know what we should say95:50is that science we don’t know all the95:53answers so we don’t know where the laws95:55of nature came from we don’t know why95:59the universe began in the way that it96:02did if indeed it had a beginning so I96:04don’t know why the Big Bang was very96:06very highly ordered which is ultimately96:08as Sean Carroll actually mentioned him96:11often points out means right but the96:14whole difference the only difference96:16between the past in the future the96:18so-called arrow of time is that in the96:20past the universe was really ordered and96:23it’s getting more disordered and that’s96:25that that that necessary state of order96:30at the start of the universe which is96:32really the reason that we exist that’s96:34the reason because the universe began in96:36a particular form we don’t know why that96:39was so we will probably find out at some96:43point and it will be something to do96:45with the laws of nature but so I’m96:47always careful I don’t want to science96:50can sometimes sound arrogant right it96:51can sometimes sound like it’s the it’s96:53the discipline of saying to people while96:55you’re not right yeah and it’s not the96:57discipline of saying you’re not right96:59it’s saying this is what we found out97:01yeah so I like to say that it provides a97:05framework within which if you want to97:07philosophize or you want to do theology97:10or you want to you want to ask these97:12deep questions about why we’re here you97:15have to operate within that framework97:16because it’s just an observational97:18framework yes everything we’ve said is97:20stuff we’ve discovered it’s not stuff97:23that someone made up we we we you know97:26we understand nuclear physics we can97:27build nuclear reactors for example so we97:30understand the physics of stars so we97:32understand that the Stars built the97:34carbon oxygen and we know how they did97:36it and we can see it because as I said97:38before we can97:39if you look far out into the universe97:41you’re looking way back in time and as97:43you look back in time you see less97:45carbon and less oxygen so we have a97:48direct observation that in the earliest97:50universe there wasn’t any because we can97:53see it and now we see that there is some97:55and we know how it was made so I think97:58it’s so it’s important to be humble when98:02you’re talking about science and you’re98:03not saying this is the way that it is I98:06mean your own a sense but you know it’s98:09not it’s not able to answer ultimate98:12questions at the moment it’s not able to98:14answer even whether the universe had a98:16beginning or not we don’t even know that98:18and I gave a talk to him I was asked to98:21give a talk to some bishops in the UK98:23about cosmology and I said yeah that’d98:26be great fun and so when I gave him this98:29talk and at the end I said I’ve got some98:31questions so if the universe is eternal98:34and it might be it might not have had a98:37beginning if it’s eternal what place is98:40there for a creator you know that’s98:42that’s a good question Brian I didn’t98:44they didn’t have an answer of course98:45right an eternal creator but yeah but I98:48think that these it might be eternal and98:51we might discover that so we don’t know98:54at the moment but we might so I think my98:57point is that these other human desires99:02very natural to religions and natural99:04thing right people you see all across99:06the world in all different cultures but99:08I think that in the 21st century it99:11religion needs to operate within that99:14framework if it’s going if it’s going to99:16operate there are still great mysteries99:18and it is appropriate to think about99:21what it means to be human and are giving99:23you my view of what it means but but I99:26don’t think the problem comes when you99:28when your your theology or your99:30philosophy forces you to deny some facts99:34some measurement now these things at99:36measurements we’re not saying it’s not99:39my opinion the universe is 13.8 billion99:41years old we measured it it’s like99:43having an opinion between the distance99:44from LA to New York no you can’t have an99:46opinion on that right know what it is99:48and it’s the same you know excited out99:51that these things99:52people say the Earth’s flat or whatever99:54there so it isn’t and we’ve measured it99:56so it’s just stop it either said but99:58that doesn’t mean you can’t be spiritual100:00and you can’t be really just I would100:03saying it doesn’t mean you can’t believe100:04in God or God’s100:06that’s not ruled out by science but some100:11stuff’s ruled out well I love the way100:14you communicate this because it takes100:16into consideration human nature and like100:18I love Dawkins he’s fantastic I think100:21he’s very very very valuable but he100:24likes to call people idiots and the100:26problem with that is people go [ __ ] you100:28you’re an idiot it like is a natural100:31inclination when you insult people to100:34argue back and to sort of dig their100:37heels in yeah and you don’t do that and100:40I think that’s very important and I100:42think that a guy like doc has just gets100:44frustrated from all these years of100:46debates with people who educated are100:48saying ridiculous things and he’s a bit100:49of a curmudgeon you know and he seems to100:51be softening as he’s getting older well100:53he’s the evolutionary biology yes and100:54that’s the the front line in some sense100:57isn’t it yes yeah I mean the thing about100:58particle physics is that you don’t get a101:00lot of [ __ ] because people don’t101:02understand what you’re talking about101:05right there so I understand his101:08frustration oh I do too101:10having said that you know I’ve kind of101:13softened a bit over the years actually101:15because now I think at this point both101:18in the u.s. actually and in Britain and101:20in some of the countries we are at a101:23point you’ve alluded to it where101:25everybody’s angry no a lot of anger and101:27a lot of it’s justified by the way whom101:29you could talk about that you know101:30income inequality and all those things101:31so it’s justified anger but it seems to101:34me that there are people of goodwill who101:36need to band together to diffuse the101:39anger in our societies otherwise we101:41won’t have countries like the United101:42States yes the United States because101:44it’s United and everybody101:45you’ve got the United flag there you101:48know said that there’s a sense of101:50belonging identity and togetherness in a101:52country which you’ve got to preserve and101:54so I’ve stopped actually um picking I101:57Isis for example quite enjoy picking101:59fights with Deepak Chopra on Twitter102:02it’s just for me to laugh102:06he says some crazy stuff in his hand but102:08I saw Thomas I’ve stopped doing it going102:10well but relative to some of the other102:13people right he’s he’s someone who means102:18well yes I don’t agree with virtually102:21anything he says however he’s a102:23well-meaning person yeah and so I’ve102:25started trying to seek common ground now102:27that’s why I for example gave a talk to102:31the bishops they asked me to come you I102:32don’t agree with them on the framework102:35their theological framework but they102:37mean well most of them yeah so I think102:40seeking consensus and diffusion anger as102:42you said is it is incumbent all of us102:45especially people like us you have a102:46public voice we need to defuse some of102:49this anger because otherwise it will102:50consume everyone yes I’ve tried very102:53hard to evolve in that respect and just102:57get better at communicating ideas and102:59get better at understanding how people103:00receive those ideas and I think that’s103:02it’s there’s it’s easy to get lazy and103:06to insult and especially me I mean I’m a103:12comedian what I do people yeah for humor103:18I want to entertain people that’s the103:20whole idea behind it but I think in103:22terms of like discussing ideas103:23especially that are so personal to103:25people like religion I’ve I’ve103:28reexamined the way I interpret these103:31ideas and the way I talk about these103:33things103:33yeah there’s a it’s interesting there’s103:37a I did a BBC program my age that I was103:40asked to do it on the thing call the103:41wreath lectures the babies that the BBC103:45have done since 1952 I think he was and103:47Robert Oppenheimer did them in 53 and it103:51was it’s fascinating you can get the103:53transcripts online they’re free and you103:55can get one recording of the five they103:57taped over the other four and you103:58believe it they raised them they wanted104:01to tape something but one of them104:05existed often Jaime giving these104:06lectures oh my god but you can read104:14better and Russell didn’t do the Reaver104:16they taped over them Bertrand Russell104:20because tape was so expensive but he104:24talks of raising yeah but it’s brilliant104:26it’s cause science in the common104:28understanding and they weren’t very104:29well-received because he thought he was104:31gonna talk about their Manhattan104:32projects so they thought he was gonna104:33talk about the atom bomb meaning is that104:35he was she ran it basically but he104:37didn’t he talked about how its thinking104:40like a scientist which means thinking in104:43the way that nature forces you to think104:45can be valuable in other areas and it’s104:48a that’s an insight in itself the great104:50thing the unique thing about science is104:53nature forces you to think like that you104:56can’t have an opinion can I have an104:57opinion about gravity just be gentle as105:00a building you can hit the ground that’s105:02it doesn’t matter what your opinion is105:03and and he said so if you think about105:07for example quantum mechanics so105:09sometimes you think of as particle like105:11an electron sometimes it has to it’s a105:13point like object may behave like a105:16little billiard ball thing pool ball105:18that bounces around but sometimes it105:20behaves like an extended thing like a105:22wavy thing and nature forces you to hold105:25both ideas in your head at the same time105:27you know there’s a get a complete105:28picture of the objects they’re a105:31description of an electron and he said105:33that’s the valuable thing about quantum105:35mechanics you know unless you’re doing105:37electronics or inventing lasers you105:39don’t need to know this stuff but if you105:41want to learn how to think you it’s105:43valuable to be forced to hold different105:46ideas in your head at the same time mmm105:48it’s really teaching you not to be an105:49absolutist straight teaching you the105:51example he uses is because he was I105:54think he was had problems with McCarthy105:56and all those things didn’t he so you105:57think he’s writing in the 50s so he said105:59you can either be you could be a106:01communist which in his definition would106:03be that you think the needs of the many106:06outweigh the needs of the few right so106:07so societies all that matters106:09oh it could be a libertarian all right106:11on the far conservative end where you106:13think that the individual is the only106:15thing that matters and that’s it but106:17actually of course to have a function in106:19society you need a mixture of the two106:21and we can wait it one way or the other106:23but you need to hold both ideas in your106:26head at the same time and that’s he said106:28that one of the most valuable things106:30about science because it forces you into106:32modes106:32thought they’re valuable and that’s what106:35we’re talking about here it’s so106:36absolute physicians are always a just a106:41blinkered sort of subset of what’s106:44actually happening you can’t understand106:46the world by being an extremist yeah106:48you’ve got to hold all these views in106:50your head well that I find that so often106:55on this podcast because I talk with106:57people I agree with end disagree with106:59and I always try to put myself in the107:01head of the person that I disagree with107:03I always try to figure out how they’re107:06coming to those conclusions or where107:08they’re coming from yeah and I think107:10it’s so it’s so important to not be107:13married to ideas I got a conversation107:15with someone about this and they said107:18like sometimes you change your opinions107:19a lot I go yeah I do flip-flopping I’m107:25not a politician like I’m not107:27flip-flopping I’m thinking yeah I’m not107:29sure I’m not sure like I I will have one107:32opinion on a thing whether it’s a107:34controversial thing like universal basic107:36income I’ll change my mind a hundred107:38percent in two weeks107:39yeah now I think it’s probably a good107:41idea yeah and then I’ll go back and107:43forth no no no no no people need but107:45it’s as cruel as it seems they need107:47motivation they need and I don’t know I107:49bounce around with these things yeah but107:51I’ve tried really hard as I’ve gotten107:54older to have less absolute opinions107:56yeah yeah Richard Fineman another great107:59physicist wrote a similar essay a108:01similar time to Oppenheimer and he also108:03works in the Manhattan Project it’s108:05called the value of science and I think108:07that was 1955 and they both shared108:09actually a surprise I think that they108:13were still alive because they thought108:14that the power they’d given to the108:16politicians the atom bomb would destroy108:19everything they didn’t think that a108:20political system would control it and it108:22did so that’s an emotion remarkable108:24thing yeah we’re still here but in in in108:26that essay he said the the most valuable108:31thing about science is the realization108:33that we don’t know and he said he said108:36in that statement he calls science is108:39satisfactory philosophy of ignorance by108:41the way he said in that statement is the108:43open door the open channel he called it108:46if we want to make progress we have to108:48understand that we don’t know everything108:51and we have to leave things to future108:53generations and we can be uncertain and108:55we can change our minds and he said that108:57that’s that it’s a great last line I109:00come exactly what he says but he said109:01it’s something like is our duty as109:03scientists to communicate the value of109:05uncertainty and the value of freedom of109:07thoughts to all future generations109:08that’s the point that’s what freedom of109:11thought means freedom of thought means109:13the freedom to change your mind in fact109:16said that’s what democracy is if you109:17think about it democracy is a trial and109:19error system so it’s the it’s the109:21admission that we don’t know how to do109:24it therefore we’ll change every four109:26years we’ll change the president or109:28every eight years we’ll change the109:29president why because the president109:31doesn’t know how to do it so that109:33someone better they will do someone109:35better that comes along and then someone109:37worse and someone better but it’s a109:38trial and error system and he’s right109:41and he’s right that that is the open109:42door that’s that that’s the road to109:45progress he’s certainly better than109:46humility yeah one of the things that I109:48love so much about Bertrand Russell and109:50about Fineman was how human they were109:52they were very human I mean finally like109:55to play the bongos and who’s chasing109:57girls and Bertrand Russell was addicted109:59to tobacco he would talk about how he110:01wouldn’t fly unless he could smoke like110:04he had to get us was back when they had110:06smoking sections on airplanes and he had110:09his pipe and he just refused to fly110:11without tobacco and he couldn’t imagine110:12being without tobacco well yeah that’s110:14so strange for such a brilliant guy to110:17be addicted to such a gross thing yeah110:20you’re right because I think these these110:22are faithful that found existence joyous110:26yeah wanted to know they just wanted to110:28know stuff yeah didn’t want to know110:29everything because you can’t know110:31everything right yeah I suppose that’s110:33what if you think about what the job of110:36the scientist is is to is to stand on110:38the edge of the known because you’re a110:41research scientist so if there’s nothing110:42to know then you’ve got no job so you110:45have to be naturally comfortable with110:47not knowing and if there’s one thing I110:50really do think we was how do we begin110:53to patch our countries back up again one110:56of the reasons I think in education is110:58to teach people the value of on110:59certainty but not knowing it is not weak111:02right to not know it’s actually natural111:06not to know and that’s one of the111:09freedom is with religion is to say that111:11you know when you do not hard to say111:13that you have absolute truth and111:15absolute knowledge of something yeah111:17when it can’t really exist yeah I mean111:19history tells us doesn’t it that yeah111:20anyone who thinks they’ve got absolute111:22knowledge is a cause he’s trouble yeah111:25did you see ex machina yeah did you111:28enjoy it yes yes I know him Alex Garland111:31because he wrote sunshine oh right 28111:34days later111:35yeah and yeah new movie the weird one111:38the alien movie he wrote that as well111:39right yes a great soundtrack yeah yeah111:45did you are you scared of artificial111:48life artificial intelligence and you111:51know I might scare the [ __ ] out of me111:53yeah when he talked about it like he111:55talks about it like were in the opening111:58scene of a science fiction movie where112:01he’s trying to warn people and then they112:03don’t listen to the genius and it goes112:05south so depends I chaired a debate on112:09this for the role sites in London a few112:12weeks ago and the so it’s treating now112:16at the moment what people seem to be112:18frightened of a general a is no I AG I112:20they call artificial general112:21intelligence which is like what we112:23talked about earlier a human-like112:25capability thing yes and we miles away112:29from that we don’t have to do it we112:31haven’t got them and we’re miles away so112:33at the moment artificial intelligence is112:35expert systems and very focused systems112:38that do particular things you can be112:40scared of them in a limited economic112:43sense because they’re going to displace112:45people’s jobs and actually interestingly112:47in this panel discussion we had it’s112:49going to be like why you Mike on112:50middle-class jobs in the UK so112:52white-collar jobs it’s not actually why112:54people are interested in universal basic112:56income to sort of replace money that’s112:58kind of lost because there will be no113:00jobs for all these people otherwise we113:01have just a mass catastrophe yeah113:03they’re very good someone said that113:05these systems are special intelligence113:07systems at the moment they’re very good113:09at doing things like lot lawyers work so113:11they’re very good at reading contracts113:12and things113:13that’s interesting it’s a revolution113:15it’s not like the Industrial Revolution113:16where it’s manual labor that gets hit113:19necessarily this is kind of interesting113:21because it hits that kind of113:23intermediate level that usually escapes113:26so you’re right one of the answers is to113:28tax there was an example was a robot113:31tank so in a car factory you say to the113:34manufacturer well okay you can have a113:35robot well you pay the robot the same as113:37you pay a person and then that money113:39goes into funding universal basic income113:41or something like that113:42mhm so I think there’s got to be an113:43economic change because these systems113:45will be there but all the experts I113:49suppose who agreed the the idea of a113:52Terminator style general intelligence113:54taken over the world is miles away and113:58so whilst we might start thinking about114:01the regulation it’s not going to happen114:04soon is the general point I think so I114:08would disagree with him on that I think114:11I think it’s too far in the future at114:13the moment I thought it might be one of114:15those people that’s okay it’s gonna be114:17all right right and then then you know114:18my iphone takes me out on the way so a114:24choice at the moment isn’t it I mean114:25don’t don’t give your iPhone a laser114:28that doesn’t matter if it goes crazy and114:31tries to take over the world I know I114:32know that’s a bit facetious because they114:34can he would say they could take over114:36power grids and all that kind of stuff114:37yeah well it’s these concepts that are114:40really hard to visualize like sir Kurt’s114:43Wiles idea of the exponential increase114:46of technology leading to us to a point114:49in the near future where you’re gonna be114:51able to download your consciousness into114:52a computer you talk to computer expert114:54still like there’s no way we’re miles114:55away from that yeah on you’re a114:56scientist yeah scientist one brain cell115:02probably we can but Kurzweil is115:04convinced that what’s gonna happen is115:06that as technology increases it can115:08increases in this wildly exponential way115:11where we really can’t visualize it we115:14can’t even imagine how much advancement115:17will take place over 50 years but in115:19those 50 years something’s going to115:21happen that radically changes our idea115:23of what’s possible and I think Elon115:25shares this idea as well that115:27gonna sneak up on us so quickly that115:29when it does go alive it’ll be too late115:30yeah I mean it’s worth putting the the115:33the framework in place115:34I think the regulatory framework even as115:37you said for the more realistic problem115:39which is people’s jobs are going to get115:40displaced yes115:41and there’s a great I was at a thing and115:44some someone said I come he was but they115:46said that the jury was a politician the115:48the job of the innovation system is to115:50create jobs faster than it destroys them115:53so you’ve always got to remember that as115:54a government and as regulators if you’re115:57going to allow technologies into the115:59marketplace that destroy people’s jobs116:01it is your responsibility to find a way116:04of replacing those jobs or compensating116:07those people as you said otherwise you116:09get breakdown so human being those that116:12people need some meaning like they just116:15giving them income I think is just gonna116:18mean just my speculation but it’s gonna116:21create mass despair even if you provide116:24them you provide them with food and116:25shelter they need people need things to116:28do so it’s there’s going to be some sort116:31of a demand to find meaning for people116:34give them occupations give them116:36something some tasks let’s say it seems116:39to be one of the critical parts of being116:42a person so we need things to do that we116:45find meaning in you know like you were116:47talking about we’re the only things that116:49we know of that have meaning that find116:52meaning and share meaning and believe in116:54that we’re gonna need something like116:57that if universal basic income comes116:59along I don’t think it’s going to be117:00enough to just feed people and house117:02them yeah they couldn’t want something117:04to do if you know a person is a you’re117:07doing something for an occupation and117:09this is your identity and then all117:11sudden that occupation becomes117:12irrelevant because computer does it117:13faster cheaper quicker these people are117:17gonna have this incredible feeling of117:19despair and just not being valuable yeah117:22I mean oh what wonder utopian so their117:25version of this is that everybody gets117:27to do what we’re doing now Rush’s make a117:29living so thinking and creating and now117:32that kind of you know so that that’s the117:34the utopian ideal is you don’t need to117:36do the stuff the job that you don’t117:38really want to do in the factory117:41you can do the thing that humans are117:43best at that but I agree it’s that’s a117:46very utopian view yeah does everybody117:49want to do that or does everybody have117:51their mindset well because we’re117:53education if everybody had an interest117:55like that if everybody went on to make117:57pottery and painting and doing all these118:00different things they’ve always really118:01wanted to do and their needs are met by118:04you know the universal basic income118:06money they receive every month but boy118:09there’s a lot of people I don’t think118:10have those desires or needs and to sort118:13of force them onto them at age 55 or118:16whatever it’s gonna be yeah seems to be118:18very very difficult yeah yeah I agree118:22yeah it’s a big challenge but I think118:25that in concept at least it’s inevitable118:28that we do have some sort of an118:30artificial intelligence that resembles118:32us or that resembles something like ex118:35machina if people choose to create that118:39I mean choose to create it in our own118:41image but that’s very godlike isn’t it118:44God created us in his own image yeah and118:46again yeah see I don’t know that when I118:51talk to people in the field as you118:54probably have most of them say don’t118:56have to do it yes it’s really right it’s118:59gonna be miles away so maybe I’m hiding119:01my head in the sand a bit but I don’t119:04think so I think it’s I think we’ll know119:08it when I don’t think anyone’s gonna do119:09it accidentally right so I I don’t think119:12it’s just suddenly going to be upon us I119:14I think we will see we’ll see ourselves119:18getting acquiring that capability we’ll119:21see ourselves getting close we’ll see119:22their systems beginning to emerge in119:25them we’ll think about it just think 200119:28years ago if you wanted a photograph of119:30something you want to picture something119:31you had a draw it I mean there was no119:35photography 200 years ago yeah I mean119:38just think of that it’s almost119:40inconceivable no automobiles no119:43photography what was automobile about119:45maybe there was some sort of machines119:47that drove people around right something119:49close there wasn’t three is earlier than119:52that119:52right you go back 500 years you have119:55almost nothing yeah it’s crazy how we’ve119:57been quick it’s so fast119:59it’s so fast I mean and then this what120:02we’re doing right now that there’s120:03people right now in their car that are120:05streaming this so they’re in their car120:07and they’re listening as they’re driving120:08on the road maybe they have a Tesla120:10maybe they have an electric car they’re120:12driving down the road streaming to120:14people talking where it’s ones and zeros120:17that are broken down and there’s some120:19audible form and you can listen to it in120:21your car that is bananas yeah I agree120:26we’ve been quick so quick well think of120:28the world you know the internet I mean120:30it’s a it said not long I mean I120:33remember it being invented yeah you know120:35oh well certainly the web went on so the120:39web well it was very early for me120:41because I was in doing particle physics120:43and of course that the web comes from120:45CERN the WWE bit right so it’s certainly120:48in the early 90s I was involved in that120:51you know in the university environment120:54with email and all that kind of stuff120:56so I don’t know when it kind of didn’t120:59really you could you could have a web121:01browser that just the only sites they121:03were there in NASA and I think NASA had121:06one of the early sites and CERN it was121:08very little oh when did you become121:09involved with CERN so that would be I121:12started doing particle physics in 95 and121:16when was when did the Large Hadron121:18Collider go alive that was an I remember121:222000 and 2007 I think he pause of 2008121:28is so long ago about 10 years ago but he121:31started that we stayed up and then we121:32had a problem with it and then it took a121:34bit a while to fix it hasn’t been taking121:37data that long but it’s a tremendously121:40successful thing now and its operating121:43beyond its design capabilities it’s121:45quite incredible it’s so stunning a121:47physical thing that this how large is it121:50how long is in its 27 kilometres so I121:53sat about 60 miles 16 miles and it’s a121:56circular yeah sort of a building yeah121:58well I say it’s a big cube I mean you122:00think basically is mainly under France122:02and partly under Switzerland and it122:04accelerates protons122:06around in a circle both ways they won’t122:08one beam goes well my one goes the other122:10way and they go around 11,000 times a122:12second because that’s so very close to122:15speed of light 99.999999% the speed of122:18light and then we cross the beams and122:20collide the particles and in those122:22collisions you’re recreating the122:24conditions that were present less than a122:26billionth of a second after the Big Bang122:28so we know that physics so going back we122:32said about the carbon and the oxygen we122:34can trace that story back way beyond the122:36time when they were protons and neutrons122:38so when there were quarks and gluons122:40around and and go all the way back and122:43the Higgs boson doing its thing back122:45then and we so we can see all that122:48physics in the lab so that’s why we have122:51some a lot of confidence in that story122:53it’s so fascinating that they were able122:56to talk someone into funding that that122:59they got a bunch of people together and123:01that you you were able to explain to you123:05know politicians and and you know123:08regular people what what you’re trying123:11to do it’s a great example of how you123:14get something done so it was the night123:15the fifties when certain was established123:18I think was 53 or 54 can’t quite123:21remember it something like that and then123:23it was built out from the Second World123:25War so you have Europe at the end of the123:27war and it was realized that the only123:30way forward for you it was collaboration123:31to rebuild the scientific base and in it123:36for peace for peaceful purposes and so123:38CERN was set up as an international123:40collaboration in Europe initially with123:42that political ideal that it was it was123:45explore nature just for the freely and123:51for peace for peaceful means and123:54peaceful reasons and and so that was a123:56the pilet the politics was right so it123:58was said it by international treaty so124:01that the member states are bound124:03together by treaty and they pay a small124:06amount relatively small amount each into124:08CERN every year which is a percentage of124:10their GDP and that’s the money they used124:13to build do the experiments and build124:14the accelerators so it’s very hard to124:17get out of it and you wouldn’t really124:19want124:20because it’s a small amount of money per124:21country and CERN doesn’t extra money to124:24build things124:25it just takes its money and basically124:27saves up and plans itself but because124:29it’s got a regular stream of money it124:31can do it so you can say we’re gonna124:32build this machine and it will take 8124:34years because that’s how much money124:35we’ve got and we’ll build it in 8 years124:38and we know how much money we’ve got so124:39we can do it you know it’s a lesson I124:41mean that the reason that the u.s.124:42Collider the SSC failed is because it’s124:47the problem you have in the US with the124:48funding system as you’ve seen in the124:50last few weeks yeah is that it’s very124:52arbitrary and it’s open to political124:54maneuvering and things can be shut down124:57and take and uncertain is not like that124:59CERN has got a guaranteed stream of125:02funding small from each country and so125:05you can do these projects and the one in125:06the u.s. that was during the Clinton125:08administration so what it was yeah it125:11was close125:12was it Clinton it was closed down by125:14Congress and a very slim vote and it was125:18in Texas so it was it was one of those125:20things where you got States vying for125:22money and he was half built mm-hmm and125:25everyone was there you know I mean the125:27thing it was bigger than the LHC it was125:30so you waste a lot of money is that a125:32huge disappointment for a scientific125:34community like where people very hopeful125:36that this was going to go along yeah it125:37was being built dug half the tunnel what125:40would it be able to do that the LHC125:42couldn’t it was a higher energy125:44accelerator than the LHC so it would125:46have discovered the Higgs particle first125:48had it been running but the the half125:51bill part is it useless now or can they125:54I think you know so that’s the thing it126:02you can do these wonderful things for126:05not a lot of money if you just do it126:09over many years and have stable funding126:11yeah it’s commit to doing it the filling126:13in in part asleep and you look at CERN126:15as well and people you have people ask126:16me now I think the UK pays about it’s126:19about one hundred million dollars a year126:21that’s what the UK pays in and it’s126:23about same for Germany same for friends126:25and so on and so people say what do we126:27get for that I mean first of all it’s126:28not the whole budget of CERN is about126:30the same as a budget of a medium-sized126:33university126:33so it’s not a lot it’s about a billion126:36dollars a year or something which is126:37what a university has so it’s not a lot126:41in the scheme of things what’s it done126:44though126:45well we invented the world wide web as126:46we’ve just said a lot of the medical126:48imaging technology they were use comes126:50from CERN it’s pioneered the use of126:52these very high field magnets which is126:54what it needed126:55so it’s engineering at the edge and126:57engineering at the edge generates127:00spin-offs and expertise to get used in127:02other fields so there’s cancer treatment127:04so-called hadron beam therapy so if127:06you’ve got a brain tumor now it’s quite127:08likely that you’ll have one of these127:10targeted particle beam therapies which127:12is like very highly targeted sort of127:15chemotherapy it’s not chemotherapy it’s127:16radiation that you can target in the127:18beam into your head and attack the tumor127:21and those those are particle127:23accelerators so most particle127:25accelerators today are in hospitals and127:28in medicine but they came from doing127:31particle physics that so the the127:34spin-offs of these big experiments at127:37the edge of our capability are always127:39immense which is why they worth funding127:42at these very low levels but it’s not127:45just the knowledge it’s the engineering127:47expertise that there is a practical127:49application for every everyday127:51there always is it’s just finding out127:52how to do hard things is usually useful127:55the model and it wasn’t just the Higgs127:58boson particle that you guys are127:59discovered what is quark gluon plasma128:03yes that that’s a shortly after the128:06billionth of a second after the Big Bang128:07yeah you end up with a soup of quarks128:11and gluons so quarks are the building128:13blocks of protons and neutrons and128:15gluons are the things that stick them128:16together and so a proton has two up128:19quarks and a down quark and in each one128:21has two down quarks and up quark and so128:23on so their constituents the protons and128:24neutrons which are the constituents of128:26our atomic nuclei so we go if you go to128:29very high temperatures our high energies128:31then the protons and neutrons fall to128:33bits then you end up with a soup of128:36quarks and gluons128:38then that’s a quark gluon plasma and128:40it’s insanely dense right128:42yeah well very high-energy so so you get128:46that so128:47we’ve been exploring that by could we128:48don’t only collide protons together we128:50can collide lead nuclei together or128:53silver nuclei together at the LHC and128:56that’s when you make these kind of soups128:58of nuclear matter if you like very hot129:02nuclear matter to explore that physics129:04to that and that nuclear physics Wow and129:07I was reading something about the the129:09weight of of that stuff that like a129:13sugar cube like what is that what is the129:16actual weight well it depends our129:18density is that so don’t they’re I mean129:21they were the thing I remember is it the129:23sugar cube of a neutron star material129:25which is I don’t know how many hundred129:29million tons I can you know that it129:31depends but so I don’t know with the129:33quark-gluon plasma I don’t know what129:34number you there was something it was129:36one of the things after the discovery129:38they were talking about the massive129:40weight of quark gluon plasma and like129:44yeah almost incomprehensible yeah yeah I129:46don’t know the number of it but129:48something crazy yeah yeah now one once129:51these you got something here does 40129:55billion oh my god a cubic centimeter129:58would weigh 40 billion tons oh yeah the130:09densest matter created in the Big Bang130:10machine what are they doing right now130:13it’s a closed for engineering and130:16upgrades upgrades yeah I mean one thing130:19we’re trying to do is one of the things130:20in particle physics is that you want as130:22many collisions per second as you can130:25generate and then they we have a130:28collision whether what’s got a bunch130:30crossing LHC we can bury it but it’s130:33something like 25 nanoseconds different130:35they don’t want so it’s really we get a130:37lot of collisions per second and and the130:39more collisions per second you can get130:41the more chance you have in making130:44interest in things like Higgs particles130:45or whatever else may be out there130:47waiting to be discovered that means it’s130:49possible there are other particles out130:51there that we haven’t yet discovered130:53that could be within the reach of the130:54LHC and if this one that was in Texas130:58had gotten built and it was more130:59powerful131:00then the LHC you’d have even more131:02opportunity to do something like that131:03yeah now when these things are created131:06by these collisions how long do they131:09last131:10oh fractions of a second so that the131:14general rule in physics in particle131:16physics is that they’re the more massive131:18it is and the more things it can decay131:20into the faster it will do that so131:23basically the heavy things decay into131:25light things and so the only the stable131:28particles are things like electrons and131:31some of the quarks and the up quarks and131:34down quarks are stable things but so131:38everything tends to decay very fast so131:40we’re talking fraction billionths of a131:41second fractions and how are they less131:44than that are they registering its131:47existence like what is uh what is being131:50used to measure it so what you see if131:52you collide what are they I see we131:54collide protons together then-president131:57got loads of stuff in them loads of131:58gluons and the quarks so you get a big132:01mess first of all so most of it’s a load132:03of particles Asprey and I wish you’re132:06not interested in but sometimes when you132:08when let’s say a couple of the gluons132:10bangs together and they can make132:12something interesting like a top quark132:14or a Higgs particle what’s a top quark132:17it’s up quite a very heavy there’s six132:19quarks it says up and down charm and132:21strange bottom and top from end strange132:25yeah so it so strange was literally in132:27there was it the fifties I we discovered132:30them someone said that’s really strange132:32strange a new kind of particle and so132:35that yes we have six quarks and they’re132:37in three families so the up and down or132:39warm family and then the Chairman132:42stranger another family in the top and132:43bottom of the third family and so we for132:45some reason so the only thing the only132:47particles we need to make up you and me132:49they’re up quarks down quarks and132:51electrons but for some reason there are132:53two further copies of those which you’re132:56identically every way except they’re132:58heavier so there’s the charm and the133:00strange quark and if they’re in a heavy133:01electron called a muon and then there’s133:04a the top and the bottom quark and133:05another heavy electron called the tail133:07and that’s it133:09so that there’s this weird pattern that133:11we don’t understand so we don’t seems133:13like133:14you only needed the first family to133:17build a universe right right but for133:19some reason there are two copies now133:22heavy ones decay into the lighter ones133:24is the point so when you make them133:25they’re not around very long and just133:28answer your question what happens is133:29that when they decay they throw their133:31decay products out into our detector so133:34we take a photograph of the cascade of133:37particles that comes from these heavier133:39particles decaying and the trick is to133:42patch it all up to see to try and so133:45work out what everything came from Wow133:47now when they five find these unexpected133:50particles then what happens then there’s133:53the study of them then there’s then133:56everybody gets together and go okay what133:57the hell is that133:58yeah what is that what do we do so we134:01want to know with a Higgs particle we134:03know what it does which is it gives mass134:04to everything so it’s fundamentally the134:08thing that gives mass to all the other134:10things in the universe at the most134:11fundamental level so so electrons for134:14example and the up and down quarks there134:17get their mass from their interaction134:20with the Higgs that’s why they’re134:21massive that’s another reason we exist134:23you know we go right back we wouldn’t134:25exist if there wasn’t mass in the134:27universe and the Higgs is ultimately134:29responsible for that mass I keep saying134:33I keep caveat in it because then you get134:35other sorts of mass that generated but134:38but that the fundamental basic seed is134:41it were it’s from its from the Higgs and134:43so what we want to know is we want to134:45know how that thing behaves and their134:48weight so we’re study is so you want to134:49make a lot of them so you can take a lot134:52of pictures of it and study a lot and134:53see exactly how it does that and so134:55that’s what we’re doing that’s what134:57we’re engaged in at the moment we’re134:58making high-precision measurements of135:00the way that particle behaves so we can135:03understand the laws of nature and that135:06daddy’s the laws of nature135:07how are those particles behaving and135:09what are they doing but it is possible135:12that some new form of some new form of135:17particles something else could be135:18discovered yeah the way we know about135:20yet because we know almost no that there135:24are other particles out there in the135:25universe we almost know a thing called135:27matter yes so we look how into the135:29universe and we see that there’s a lot135:31of stuff there that it’s interacting135:33gravitationally but it’s not interacting135:36strongly with the matter out of which we135:38are made and the stars are made so it’s135:41almost certain that that’s some form of135:44particle that fits beautifully and we135:47see lots of different observations the135:49way galaxies rotate and interact and135:51even that oldest lie in the universe the135:53so-called cosmic microwave background135:54radiation we see the signature of that135:57stuff in that light as well so we think135:59that there’s some of the particle out136:01there and and to be honest we thought we136:04would have detected it I think at LHC we136:07have lots of theories called136:08supersymmetric theories that make136:10predictions for all sorts of different136:12particles that would interact weakly136:13with normal matter and I yeah I think136:17it’s broadly seen as a surprise that we136:20haven’t seen them at LHC so that just136:22may well mean that either their vote136:26they’re a bit too massive so we need136:28more energy to make them and we just136:30haven’t quite got enough well we’re not136:32making enough of them often enough to136:33see them which is one of the reasons we136:35upgrade in the LHC so we also look for136:38them by the way directly so we have136:42experiments under mountains we bury them136:45under mountains so the cosmic rays from136:46space don’t interfere with them and136:48we’re looking for the rare occasions136:51when these dark matter particles bump136:52into the particles of matter in the136:55detector so it’s so because ya D would136:57be these rooms full of them I mean the136:59galaxies swimming with matter as far as137:02we can tell but it interacts very weakly137:04with this matter so it doesn’t bump into137:07us very often so we’re looking for the137:09direct detection of it and we’re looking137:11to make those particles LHC so it’s137:14everywhere but it doesn’t interact with137:16us very weakly137:17and so interacts through gravity and the137:20the the archetypal particle that’s137:22everywhere that doesn’t interact137:23strongly is a neutrino so we do know137:26about neutrinos we’ve detected those and137:28there there are something like sixty137:32billion per centimeter squared per137:34second passing through your head now137:36from the Sun so they get made in nuclear137:39reactions in the Sun but they go137:41straight through137:41and actually straight through the earth137:43pretty much137:44occasionally one of them bumps into137:46something and we can detect those137:48because with so many of them going137:51through but we only detect you know know137:53one or two a day and the idea is that137:56dark matter encompasses an enormous137:59percentage of the universe yes it’s five138:02times as much matter is dark matter than138:06is normal matter and the number is138:09twenty five percent of the universe so138:11it’s roughly speaking about five percent138:13of the universe is normal matter stars138:17in gas 20 say percent as dark matter yes138:20oh yeah five Norma about 25 dark matter138:23in about 70s dark energy that’s the138:25other thing yeah yeah so what the hell’s138:28that don’t know know what it does so138:32again what see we got we talked about138:34Einstein’s theory earlier so Einstein’s138:37theory which works spectacularly well138:39says that if you put stuff into the138:42University we said before then it warps138:44and deforms and stretches and it very138:47precisely tells you given the stuff that138:50you put in it how much does it stretch138:51and how does it stretch and the the138:55measurement we have is how its138:56stretching so so we observe the thing we138:59observe is how the universe is expanding139:01and how that expansion rate is changing139:04and how it’s a ship how it’s changed139:06over time so we have very precise139:08measurements of that so then we can use139:10the theory to tell us what’s in it given139:12that we know what how it’s responding to139:14that stuff and that’s how we discover139:17dark energy so we noticed that the139:19universe’s expansion rate is increasing139:22so the universe is accelerating in its139:24expansion which is exactly the opposite139:27of what we thought noticed in the 1990s139:29that we discovered that so we can work139:32out what sort of stuff and how much of139:35that stuff you need to put in the139:36universe to make that happen and that’s139:38where we get these numbers from was your139:42resistance to that when that was first139:43proposed yeah I remember my one of my139:45friends at Brian Schmidt got the Nobel139:47Prize for that and then I remember I139:49talked to him and he said he was a139:52postdoc I think at the time so young139:55and he made he’s making measurements of139:56supernovae the light from supernova139:58explosions which is so bright that you140:00can see them you know hundreds and140:02millions billions of light years away140:03and he noticed that if you look at the140:06date so the light is stretched in the140:08wrong way so we look at the stretch of140:11light as it travels across the universe140:13and the universe is expanding it140:14stretches the lights so it changes the140:16color and he noticed that it was a140:18discrepancy which which said that the140:21universe that the expansion rate is140:23speeding up it’s been speeding up for140:26him think something like seven billion140:28years or so it’s been speeding up so he140:31thought these done something wrong140:33because it you know so so he checks it140:36and checked in checked it and he140:37couldn’t find anything wrong so he did140:39what a good scientist does which is he140:40published it so that somebody else could140:42find out what he’d done wrong and he140:44said that he thought it would be the end140:45of his career he thought I’d be a140:46laughingstock you know then he got the140:48Nobel Prize because he was right it is140:50stretched Wow140:52it’s a great lesson means that if you if140:54you’re sure that you can’t see what140:57you’ve done wrong then you publish it140:59because back to that thing about141:00humility we saw it earlier you know what141:02we ultimately we’re not trying to be141:03right we’re trying to find out stuff and141:06so the good scientists will be really141:09happy if they set out to be wrong141:11because they’ve learned something yeah141:12that’s that it’s good that yeah that’s141:14that because he got the Nobel Prize now141:16when he received the Nobel Prize in this141:18concept started being discussed what was141:21the initial reaction to it well it’s141:23it’s interesting because it’s allowed in141:27Einstein’s theory and it was in141:28Einstein’s original theory so it’s141:31called it’s got a name it’s called the141:32cosmological constant and that’s a it’s141:35it just allowed in the equations and141:37Einstein actually introduced it141:40initially so because I signs the141:43equations strongly suggest that the141:46universe is expanding or contracting and141:48not just sat there so even before we’d141:51observed anything141:52Einstein had a theory that suggested141:55that the universe is just not static and141:57actually really strongly suggest that141:59there’s a beginning right so that the142:02theory itself on its own suggests that142:05you can see that if the universe is142:06stretching today then142:08have been smaller in the past right142:09everything must’ve been closer together142:10let’s say that so the as a man that142:15chuckles George Lemaitre who was a who142:17worked independently of Einstein but the142:19same time in the early 1920s before we142:22even knew there were other galaxies142:23beyond the Milky Way and they noticed142:25that the the equation suggests the142:27universe might be stretching and so he142:30wrote to Einstein and said your theory142:32suggests there was a day without a142:34yesterday because he thought if142:36everything’s expanding now then he must142:38have been closer together in the past142:39and so there might be a time when it was142:41all together and he was a priest well so142:44it’s a Belgian priest so I think I mean142:48I wrote about this now it’s kind of mind142:49socialization of it but I think that he142:51was more predisposed to accept what the142:55equations were telling him because a142:57beginning an origin for a priest is143:00really a nice thing because it tells you143:02the creation event and Einstein tried to143:04dodge it and and put this allowed term143:08into his equation which is the almost143:10the stretchy term so say well if it’s143:13all if it’s all kind of contracting or143:16something can I put something in to make143:17it stretch a bit to balance it all out143:19so it can be eternal so an you can’t you143:22can’t make it eternal that way but he so143:25tried it then he took it out and called143:28it his biggest blunder taking it out was143:31ya know you can’t put any in his biggest143:33blunder or at least some people think143:36what what he’d done was miss the143:38prediction of the Big Bang really so by143:41trying to fiddle around to have a static143:44universe that’s stable143:46he missed what the equations were143:48screaming his own theory was screaming143:50to him which is that no the universe143:52expands or contracts and he missed it143:55right so I think that’s probably what he143:57meant by biggest blunder but in any case143:59he took it out and then later in the144:011990s it turns out there no it’s there144:04but it’s really small it’s a tiny tiny144:07effect but it’s still dominating the144:11universe now and it will and it will144:13dominate even more in the future so we144:15think that we’re in the universe that144:18will continue to expand essentially144:20doubling in size144:21a fixed time scale which is about twenty144:24billion years so within every twenty144:26billion years into the future forever144:28unless something happens the universe144:30will continue to expand and double in144:34size two years and that’s the dark144:36energy that’s driving it but nobody144:38knows what it is it’s the it’s one of144:41the cutting edge massive problems in144:44theoretical physics and what is being144:47done to try to get a better grasp of144:49what it is144:50I mean it’s theoretical at them I mean144:52we’re making very precise observations144:53of it right but it looks like this144:56constant so it looks like it’s basically144:58one number if you like in Einstein’s145:01equations and just really simple so it145:04looks like it’s something that’s maybe a145:05property of space itself don’t know but145:09it looks like a very simple thing that145:11doesn’t change over time and just stays145:14there so so it requires theoretical145:18advance as well and so people are trying145:21very hard to do that it’s so crazy when145:24you go from Galileo to modern145:27theoretical physics that they’re still145:28in the myths of this understanding yeah145:33of what all this stuff is yeah I mean145:35that these are you know these are145:38fundamental and difficult problems and145:40we’re talking about the origin and145:41evolution of the universe right that’s145:43what cosmology is and it’s also particle145:46physics I mean the way that these things145:48this stuff we keep talking like this145:50stuff in the universe that’s what the145:52LHC studies it studies how the stuff145:54behaves um right now these are it’s very145:58theoretical right they’re trying to wrap146:01their their minds around what this is146:03and what the properties of it are do you146:05envision a time where you can actually146:07physically measure this and then have a146:09a real clear understanding of what it is146:12and what its properties dark energy and146:14I I don’t know I mean for example there146:18are theories for example which you’re146:20probably not right but they’re not146:22necessarily wrong either there are146:24theories that try to link it to the146:25Higgs particle so the Higgs particle146:28which we’ve discovered and can measure146:30has some properties that we think the146:33dark energy would need146:35and also this inflation that I mentioned146:38way back at the start of the universe as146:40some of the prophecies that can do that146:42as well so for example there are146:44fearfully tries to link them so we do146:46have an observation of the Higgs we can146:48study that so are they linked don’t know146:51and so it could be that we can study it146:55even though it’s a very small weak146:58effect and it could be web direct access147:01food so it’s great I mean it’s just147:03these are big mysteries that there’s147:06something really profound we don’t147:07understand about the way that stuff in147:11particular the Higgs actually interacts147:13with space and time so very naively the147:17Higgs should blow the universe apart147:19just very naively it’s loads of energy147:22in a very small amount of space huge147:26amounts of energy in the Higgs field but147:28it doesn’t do anything apart from give147:30mass to things it doesn’t seem to it147:33doesn’t directly affect space but147:36everything else that you put in space147:38directly affects it so you know there147:42are there are kind of issues there that147:45we don’t and it just says we don’t get147:47it we don’t know we don’t get it yet147:49it’s just I can eat another one of those147:51they’d probably late that I if I stood147:53guess I’d say there’s some link there147:54you know there’s something going on and147:56solving one of them might solve the147:59other to inflation Higgs dark energy148:02something how many people worldwide148:05would you estimate are trying to grasp148:08this and working on this the good148:11question I don’t know I mean it’s a it’s148:13probably tens of thousands tens of148:15thousands if you can all the people who148:17work at CERN and the particle physicists148:19and the theoretical physicists there’d148:21be tens of thousands because it’s it’s148:24so important to for us to get an148:27understanding of what’s going on but yet148:30so outside of the grasp of most people148:34including me148:35like I’m listening to you talk about148:37this and I’m like thank God it’s people148:39like you think whatever thank the think148:41quarks there’s people like you out there148:43that are doing this but it it’s almost148:47like you’re speaking another language148:49it’s so strange to me was very new stuff148:52yes you know I mean even when I was at148:54school and so when I when I was at148:57university we hadn’t discovered the top148:59quark and we we sorta knew it was there149:01we thought the Higgs might be there but149:04we had no idea whether it was you know149:06so so we’re moving in my career we’re149:09moving quite fast and yet you’re right149:12these are the most fundamental questions149:14about what Weiser eat ultimately why is149:17the universe the way it is and even149:19possibly why is there a universe right149:21movie we’re away from that yet but if149:24we’re ever going to answer that it will149:26be by doing stuff like this and this is149:29all addressed in this live show that149:31you’re doing this world yeah live show149:33and certainly be they also the149:36consequences of the not that comes words149:39of knowledge but the the cosmology is149:41terrifying that as we’ve started with so149:46I think it as we’ve said it raises149:49questions it makes quite vivid questions149:52that we all have about you know what are149:55what are we doing here right this sigh149:58try I think it’s got all the way back to150:01me really been into Cal Sega and he150:04always used to try this you you try to150:06link it to things that people think150:09about naturally then that’s why people150:11are fascinated by this stuff because150:14they do actually think about it you150:15might not be with the right names or the150:17right words or the right facts even but150:20they’re thinking about how did I get150:21here how did I come to exist what is the150:24future do we have a future150:26what was our past yeah these these are150:29universal questions I think there150:31certainly are and the way you’re doing150:33this with your live show you were saying150:35that you have an enormous visual aspect150:37to it well we have a we we have the150:41biggest screen we can get in every venue150:43and it’s led it’s when the the150:44state-of-the-art modern LED screen so150:46they’re like Lego then you can build150:48them so you fill the venue with it so150:50you know Wembley Arena150:52then it’s 30 meters wide whatever by 8150:55meters high it’s enormous150:56you must have a huge crew carrying on150:58yeah 16 or 18 people and151:01to rock’n’roll show some of the venues151:03were doing in North America they’re in151:05Canada they’re a bit smaller venues but151:07we just fill it with screen as much as151:09we can get and then the graphics a lot151:11of the graphics I I have we’re done by a151:13Dean egg who did ex machina actually151:16Aunt Estella and the reason I I mean I I151:20say chose them I drank them up and goes151:22please please will you do this and they151:24said how much money have you got and you151:26know cuz it’s way lower than Chris Nolan151:28yeah they did it they were mean that151:30they just liked the idea of these151:32messages and these ideas so they use the151:34software that they use for interstellar151:36to create images of black holes Wow and151:39they they use general relativity they151:41coded it into their their graphics151:44software so they can rate race lights151:47around black holes and you can move the151:49camera around the black hole and it151:51traces the way all the light moves151:52around it so if you remember those151:54amazing get the gargantuan the black151:56hole in interstellar that’s that’s a151:58simulation it’s not an artist’s152:00impression it’s a simulation of what152:02Einstein’s theory tells as a black hole152:04will look like and so I can use that to152:06talk about what happens when you fall152:08into a black hole what would you see152:10watching someone fall in and you can152:13explain all that using Einstein’s theory152:15you know the idea that it’s kind of a152:17well-known idea it’s a bizarre idea that152:19if I was to fall into a black hole and152:22you were watching you’d never see me152:23falling you’d see time slowed down my152:26time slowed down as you watch me so in152:30the end I’d just slow down and slow down152:31and slow down and then I get frozen on152:33the event horizon and just fade away as152:36an image a reddening image on the event152:38horizon so time passes at different152:41rates as you move close to the black152:44hole and far away because space and time152:46have distorted by the mass of the black152:49hole and so I could I talk about all152:51that but I talk about all that with this152:52incredible image which we had it’s so152:56high resolution by the way that they it152:58was higher resolution than they’re used153:00for interstellar because my screen so153:02big so so we need a special machine to153:05play it you can buy the most expensive153:07Mac Pro in the world and it will not153:10play this stuff so I loved that from a153:13geek perspective153:14you have a special video player to play153:17the dampers just like a series of CPUs153:20are attached together and some sort of a153:21super yeah it’s yeah it’s one of those153:23this one’s a big sort of visualization153:25graphics things but but these files are153:27like you know there are 20 gig video153:29files Wow because there’s so many pixels153:31might the Pixar resoluteness is really153:33geeky in it fakes the resolution 6400 by153:361536 so impress my screen153:39it’s a lot like that yeah are you coming153:45to Los Angeles with this yeah wait a153:47month Taliban Theatre in May the end of153:50me I’m there yeah I’m here153:52oh yeah no you’ve gotta come 24th of May153:55oh you’re in San Diego as well153:56hey I gotta see one of these yeah it’s154:00gonna be great fun and however much154:02stuff we can fit into those handsome154:05devil look at that nice jacket on154:07looking good someone gave me that to154:11scrounge that but it’s cool cuz you’re154:13looking a cool guy cool guy with space154:16behind you that’s awesome man well154:18listen thank you so much for doing this154:20I really appreciate you appreciate154:22everything you’re doing it’s awesome154:24no thank you I always enjoy crying I154:26loved it last time and people still talk154:28about it when I was on less time more154:29people ask me about making you than but154:32should anybody else say get ready like154:34because it’s like a hundred times more154:36popular than it was back then is it it’s154:38gonna be very strange now but thank you154:39again really appreciate it I can’t wait154:41to see your show thank you so much thank154:42you154:45