Matt Taibi: The Press Does Not Doing Bipartisan Scandals

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hmm so Jamie pointed out this this
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congressman is that who it is the Jamie
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pointed this out that there’s a
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congressman and he released a series of
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tweets and the first letter of all these
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tweets if you put them all together it
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says Epstein didn’t kill himself or did
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not kill so notice it didn’t he did how
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do you do the posture
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should have gone with did not darting
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here with that evidence of a link
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wrapped Paul gaw sir what are the odds
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this guy did this accidentally really
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small right that’s kind of like one of
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those monkeys typing Shakespeare say
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yeah yeah I don’t think I could it could
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work and the thing is he did it
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backwards right so you didn’t see what
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the puzzle was until the last tweet
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because the last time he does in E I got
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a tweet from someone about 35 minutes
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ago that I don’t know if there’s a bunch
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of people online paying attention to it
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or what but someone alerted me and a few
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other people what it is yeah does he
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have an image of that fucking that crazy
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mask is that in his shit too
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okay he’s a agent he’s got the I was
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November first V mask yes yeah what is
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that mask for Vendetta was a
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representative of something
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it’s the Guy Fawkes mask yes that’s
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right right yeah so this guy’s uh he’s
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he’s thinking along alternative lines of
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thought but that is really an
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interesting way of saying it alphabet
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tree that’s yeah just making a bunch of
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tweets don’t ever address it just leave
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it there walk away you know Lewis
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Carroll was famous for that was he yeah
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that was one of uh he did a lot of sort
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of tricks with words you read the book
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gödel Escher Bach No
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yeah there’s a whole bunch of stuff in
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there about people who used who put
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puzzles in text mmm you know that’s kind
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of a thing that people did I guess back
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more in the 18th century in before well
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this Epstein case is probably the most
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blatant example of a public murder of a
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crucial witness I’ve ever seen in my
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entire life or anybody’s ever seen and
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the the the minimal amount of outrage
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about this the no minimal amount of
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cover it’s fuckin fascinating I mean I
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what’s amazing to me just as a you know
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somebody works in the media
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is that this was shaping up to be the
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biggest like news story in history yes
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and the instant he you know he died or
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was died or however you want to call it
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it this story just fell off the face of
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the earth it’s like nobody’s doing
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anything about it and I I don’t
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100% understand that I mean I get it why
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that’s happening but it’s it’s just
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amazing
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well when the woman from ABC what was
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her name Amy that lady the the one who
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wrote Roebuck you who had the frustrated
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moment that she called it a frustrating
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private moment right what she was
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talking about having the scoop and
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having that story and them squashing it
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right like this this is all stuff that
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everybody used to think was conspiracy
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everybody’s think this was stoner talk
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this was you know you don’t I mean like
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this is stuff where people just a
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delusional they believe all kinds of
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wacky conspiracies sure but the reality
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is much less complicated well this is
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not possible this is one of those things
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it’s so obvious it’s so in everyone’s
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face well there’s a couple of things
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going on because there there are many
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different ways than this can play out I
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mean you could have a news director who
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just sort of instinctively decides well
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we can’t do that story because I might
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want to have well and quedan later or I
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might want to have this politician on
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later and it’s it’s not like anybody
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tells them necessarily that we can’t do
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this but sighs too hot you if you grow
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up in this system and you’ve been in the
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the business for a long time you just
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you have all these things that are
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drilled into you and almost like the
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cellular level about what you can and
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cannot get into and I think there but
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there were some explicit things that
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happen with Epstein to I mean they keep
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there there were a lot of news agencies
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that killed stories about him that you
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know and we’re hearing what some of them
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in Vanity Fair this thing you know so
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yeah it’s it’s bit stay it’s bad it’s
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terrible yeah yeah when when I found out
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that Clinton flew no less than 26 times
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on a plane with Epstein I was like dude
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I haven’t flown that many times with my
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mom
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long did he know Epstein yeah I don’t
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know but I mean they have that many
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flights to have the Secret Service
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people involved I mean that’s incredibly
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bold what was he dealing with just girls
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was Clinton that much of a hound that he
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would go that deep into the well that
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many times 26 times well that’s the
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thing about the Epson story that makes
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no sense to me like I I thought that the
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percentage of people who were out and
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out like perverts who had a serious
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problem like with petty ophelia or
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whatever it was was pretty small you
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know yeah but your but they had a lot of
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people coming in and out of this
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compound and and it just seems like it’s
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a it’s a very strange story what were
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they really up to I have I have no idea
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and was was it all a blackmail scheme
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it’s just it’s just so strange well
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seems like the pedophilia aspect of it
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might be directly connected to Epstein
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himself like he might be the one that
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has a problem with girls that are like
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16 and he likes them very or he did like
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them but with the other guys it could
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just be girls
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it could be yeah yeah I mean that’s why
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it’s so crazy like how could it be that
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these but maybe it’s not but they must
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but they knew who he was
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yeah but they probably didn’t know the
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extent of it probably not yeah up until
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a point up until he was arrested right
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and then they’re like oh well then
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that’s when everybody backed off of him
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right yes yeah I mean I’m not a hundred
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percent yeah I haven’t covered this
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story in depth I’ve only I only really
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got into it a little bit we made you cuz
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it mixes a lot of things that are are
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very tough to cover yes you know the
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intelligence world is very tough to
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cover mm-hm
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you know it’s it’s hard to get stories
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out of there that they don’t want you to
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have yeah and this is this is like the
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mother of all stories and you know in
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terms of that and they’re just little
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little bread crumbs here and there that
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whole thing about Acosta
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you know the vanity vanity fair– quote
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from him is that when he said that when
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he looked at the case he didn’t do it
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because I was told he belonged to
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intelligence yes what does that mean
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right now whose intelligence you know
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what I mean like what agency but what
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for you
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and then you pair that with things like
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you know I have friends on Wall Street
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who told me I’ve never heard a single
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instance of this guy actually having a
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trade right you know so what was his
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hedge fund doing you know I mean if you
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think about it hedge funds a perfect way
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to do blackmail well because you can
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just have people putting money in and
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out all the time and it would look like
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investment yeah so very strange story
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well Eric Weinstein had a conversation
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with him you know Eric Weinstein with
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Peter Thiel capital right yeah he’s like
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this guy does know what the fuck he’s
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talking about oh yeah he’s an actor
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right this is nonsense right right that
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was initial almost instantaneous
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response yeah yeah and and and what real
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clients did he ever have what any
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jewelry trade and what has he got a
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billion dollars or whatever he had yeah
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no it’s half a billion under management
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yeah it’s ridiculous why the guy who
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owns Victoria Secrets give him a seventy
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million dollar home right in New York
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City like why I mean these are all
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things that would have been really
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interesting to get into you know try to
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kill himself the suicide didn’t happen
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to him like in the wire all right oh
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yeah yeah so unfortunate so
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unfortunately the cameras died so
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unfortunately sustained an injury that’s
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uh that you usually only get through
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strangulation right yeah murders you he
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fell on the ground and accidentally
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broke his hyoid bone yeah big deal I
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mean it’s so bizarre I can’t stand
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consider conspiracy theories I’m one of
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these people who who doesn’t like
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reading but I can’t I can’t make this
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story work in a way that isn’t you know
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yes pure toriel’s well that’s the thing
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it’s like it gets to a point where you
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like okay even Michael Shermer who runs
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skeptic magazine wait a minute the
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cameras we’re not working seems like a
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conspiracy fucking when Michael Shermer
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says he that guy doesn’t believe in
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anything
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right right he is fucking he’s down the
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line on virtually every single thing
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that’s ever happened he doesn’t believe
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in any conspiracies well well how do you
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what’s the innocent explanation for any
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has none that doesn’t make any sense you
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can’t you can’t spin it in any way to
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make it not a crazy conspiracies
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especially when the the brother
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as a doctor to do an autopsy oh yeah it
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says date I was fucking murdered right
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yeah Michael Baden the famous guy from
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the HBO autopsy show right yep
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absolutely
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Oh craziness complete craziness and you
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know it’s an example of you know the FG
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star it’s interesting because it’s
because it’s about villains on both
sides of the aisle right this is a
classic is something I’ve written about
before is that the press does not like
to do stories where the problem is
bipartisan yeah right so when you have
an institutional problem when Democrats
and Republicans both share
responsibility for it when you know or
or if it’s an institution that kind of
exists in perpetuity no matter what the
administration is we don’t really like
to do those stories we like if Fox likes
to do stories about Democrats MSNBC
likes to do stories about Republicans
but the thing that’s kind of you know
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all over the place they don’t like to do
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that story Epstein is you know he’s
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friends with Trump and and with Clinton
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I mean yeah obviously has more friends
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on the Clinton side but still and I
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think that’s this is one of the reasons
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why this story doesn’t have a lot of
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traction in the media because neither
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side really likes the idea of going too
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deeply on it feels like to me well it’s
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but the the blatant aspect of it they
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don’t mean the closest that we have to
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that is the absolute murder the Jamal
Khashoggi murder that’s the closest
thing we have to or is absolute murder
ight this one but but it’s also so
insanely blatant but now you have
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foreign actors that are involved in it
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and they all disperse and then there’s
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left with this confusion of to who’s
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responsible for it well Saudi Arabia
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that’s another example where you can’t
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really say it’s you know one side of the
both parties have been incredibly
complicit in their cooperation with the
Saudi regime and in you know the
massacres that are going on Yemen it’s a
classic example of what Noam Chomsky
used to talk about with worthy and
unworthy victims right like if the
Soviet communists did it they were that
was bad but if death squads in El
Salvador killed a priest or a Catholic
priest you know then that that was
something we didn’t write about because
they were our client state Yemen is a
story we don’t write about Syria
is a story we do write about but they’re
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really equivalent stories and yeah the
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but you’re absolutely right the
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khashoggi thing I don’t think either
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party and or either sides media really
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wants to get into that all that deeply
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how much is media shifting now like
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you’ve obviously been a journalist for a
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long time but come how much are things
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changing in the light of the Internet
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well a lot and this is what I mean I
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have a new book out now that’s really
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about this right what why the business
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has changed what’s it called hey dink
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yeah it’s out its out now and it’s it’s
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really about how the press the business
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model the press has changed I mean it’s
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something that you talk about a lot you
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hear you on your show all the time
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talking about how news agencies are
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always trying to push narratives on
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people trying to get people wound up and
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upset and that is a conscious business
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strategy that we didn’t have maybe 30
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years ago you know you think about
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Walter Cronkite or what the news was
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like back in the day you had the whole
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family sitting around the table and
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everybody watched it was sort of a
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unifying experience to watch the news
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hmm now you have news for the crazy
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right-wing uncle and then you have news
12:12
for the kid in the che shirt and their
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different channels and they’re trying to
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wind these these people up you know to
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get them upset constantly and stay there
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and a lot of that has to do with the
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Internet because before the internet
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news companies had like a basically free
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way of making money they dominated
12:31
distribution the newspaper was the only
12:33
thing in town that had a you know if you
12:35
wanted to get a wan ad it had to be
12:37
through the local newspaper
12:38
now with the internet the internet is
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the distribution system anybody has
12:43
access to it not just the local
12:44
newspaper and so there the easy money is
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gone and we have to chase clicks more
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than we ever had had to before we have
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to chase eyeballs more than we have to
12:53
so we’ve had to build new money-making
strategies and and a lot of it has to do
with just sort of monetizing anger and
division and all these things and we
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just didn’t do that before and it’s a
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had a profound difference on the
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on the media as a writer if you
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personally experienced this sort of the
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influence where people have tried to
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lean you in the direction of clickbait
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or perhaps maybe alter titles that make
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them a little bit disingenuous in order
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to get people excited about the I mean
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you know I my editors at Rolling Stone
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are pretty good in it and they give me a
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lot of weight leeway to kind of explore
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whatever I want to explore but I
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definitely feel a lot of pressure that I
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didn’t feel before in the business
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because especially in the Trump era and
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and you know I’ve written a lot about
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the Russia story right but you know
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that’s an example of one size media does
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has one take on it and another size
13:45
media has another take on it and if you
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are just the journalist and you and you
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want to just sort of report the facts
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you feel a lot of pressure to fit the
13:53
facts into a narrative that your
13:55
audience is gonna like and I had a lot
13:57
of problem with the Russia story because
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I thought you know I don’t like Donald
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Trump but I’m like I don’t I don’t think
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this guy’s James Bond consorting with
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Russian spies I think he’s corrupt in
14:07
other ways and there was a lot of
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blowback on my side of the business
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because you know people in sort of
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liberal quote-unquote liberal media you
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just have all there’s a lot of pressure
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to have everybody fit into a certain
14:20
narrative and I think that’s really
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unhealthy for the business yeah
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very unhealthy right it’s you know
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because as soon as people can be
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manipulated to conform it to that
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narrative then all sorts of stories can
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be shifted oh yeah yeah absolutely and
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and you the the job used to be about
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challenging your audience every now and
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then right like if you think a certain
14:38
thing is true well it’s our job to give
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you the bad news and say that you’re
14:41
wrong about that that used to be what
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the job was to be journalists now it’s
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the opposite now we have an audience
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we’re gonna tell you exactly what you
14:49
want to hear and what you and we’re
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gonna reinforce what you think and
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that’s very unhealthy a great example of
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this was in the summer of 2016 I was
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covering the campaign I started to hear
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reporters talking about how they didn’t
15:06
want to report poll numbers that showed
15:08
the race was closed they thought that
15:10
that was gonna hurt Hillary all right
15:12
like we said in other words we had
15:13
information that the race was closed and
15:15
we’re not telling this to audiences
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because
15:18
they wanted to hear that it was gonna be
15:20
a blowout for Hillary right on and that
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didn’t help Hillary it didn’t help the
15:25
Democrats do not warn people about this
15:27
right but it was just because if you
15:30
turned on MSNBC or CNN and you heard
15:33
that Trump was within five points or
15:35
whatever it was that was gonna be a
15:37
bummer for that audience so we stayed
15:39
away from it and you know this is the
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kind of thing it’s it’s not politically
15:44
beneficial to anybody it’s just we’re
15:46
just trying to keep people glued to the
15:48
set by telling them what they want to
15:50
hear and that’s not the news that’s not
15:51
that’s not our job you know and it
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drives me crazy
15:55
yeah it should drive you crazy that what
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you said about journalism being it used
16:00
to be something that you’re challenging
16:02
your reader you’re you’re giving them
16:04
this reality that may be uncomfortable
16:06
but it’s it’s educational and expands
16:09
their view of the world this where do
16:11
they get that now they don’t that’s the
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whole problem
16:14
like you get you can predict exactly
16:17
what the each news organization what
16:21
their take is going to be on any issue
16:23
by going oh
16:24
just did you take an example when when
16:28
the business about the Isis leader al
16:30
Baghdadi
16:31
being killed hit the news
16:34
instantaneously you knew that the New
16:36
York Times CNN and the Washington Post
16:39
that they were going to write a whole
16:40
bunch of stories about how Trump was
16:42
overplaying the significance of it that
16:44
he you know that he was telling lies
16:48
about it they were they mate they you
16:50
knew they were gonna make the entire
16:51
thing about Trump and then meanwhile Fox
16:54
had a completely different spin on about
16:55
how heroic it was but but news audiences
16:58
didn’t have anywhere to go to just
16:59
simply hear who was this person
17:01
why was he important what were the
17:03
growth of the people in the region think
17:05
you know what kind of what is this gonna
17:07
mean going forward is they actually
17:09
gonna have any impact you know is are we
17:13
gonna have to continually you know is
17:16
there gonna be a new person like this
17:17
every every time are we actually
17:19
accomplishing it you don’t get that
17:21
anywhere all you get is Trump is a
17:23
shithead on one side and Trump is a hero
17:25
on the other side that’s that’s not the
17:27
news you know yeah and but the thing is
17:29
it’s like
17:31
the business aspect of it is so weird
17:33
like you have your guys like Hannity or
17:35
you can absolutely predict what that
17:37
guy’s gonna say every single time you
17:38
know what side he’s on and he’s blatant
17:41
about it mhm and when you see someone
17:45
like that you go okay well this is okay
17:47
where this is this is peak bullshit
17:48
right so where where do we go where I
17:51
see both sides where’s the where’s the
17:53
where’s the middle ground where someone
17:55
goes well this is true but you gotta say
17:57
this is honest too and this is this is
17:59
what’s going on over on this side and
18:00
the Republicans have a point here and
18:02
you don’t you don’t
18:04
there’s no mainstream media place where
18:07
you can go for that right now
18:08
no there isn’t and that’s I mean I mean
18:10
one of this is one of things already but
18:11
this is one of the reasons why shows
18:12
like yours are so popular I mean I think
18:14
there’s a complete loss of trust that
18:17
they feel like people are not being
18:18
honest with them all right and they’re
18:20
not being straight and you know they
18:22
they come to people like you and and a
18:25
lot of other people of independent folks
18:27
who aren’t like the quote-unquote
18:29
mainstream media because they it’s not
18:34
really thought it’s not reporting it’s
18:36
not anything if you can predict a
18:37
hundred percent what a person’s going to
18:39
say that’s not thinking that’s not
18:41
reporting that’s not it’s just marketing
18:42
someone like me that’s so disturbing I’m
18:44
a fuckin comedian and a Cagefighting
18:46
commentator when people are coming to me
18:48
like this is this is the source where
18:51
you go for unbiased representations of
18:53
what’s going on the world that’s crazy
18:55
well I mean I started interview with
18:58
Barry Weiss right and you just you did a
19:01
simple base you didn’t go to journalism
19:02
school right no no so she said something
19:06
about how you know oh she’s an Assad
19:09
toady and you said what does that mean
19:12
you just ask the simple basic questions
19:14
right what does that mean where is that
19:16
coming from how do you know that you
19:18
know yeah like journalism isn’t brain
19:21
surgery that’s all it is is to asking
19:22
the simple questions that sort of pop to
19:24
mind when you when you’re in a situation
19:26
like where did this happen how do we
19:28
know that that’s true and but there’s a
19:32
whole generation of people in the press
19:33
now who just simply do not do that go
19:36
through the process of just asking
19:37
simple questions like how do I know
19:39
that’s true like after each story your
19:41
report you’re supposed to kind of like
19:43
wipe your memory clean and start over
19:45
so just because somebody was banned the
19:47
last time you covered them doesn’t mean
19:48
that they’re necessarily going to be the
19:50
bad guy this time you cover them all
19:52
right you have to continually test your
19:54
assumptions and ask yourself is this
19:57
true is that true is this true how do we
19:59
know this and we’ve just stopped doing
20:02
that like the it’s just the maratha of
20:04
like pre-written
20:06
takes on things and it’s it’s really
20:09
really bad and you can see why audiences
20:12
are fleeing from this stuff they just
20:14
don’t have the impact they used to well
20:16
it’s really interesting this a lot of
20:17
this is this unpredicted consequence of
20:20
having these open platforms like
20:22
Facebook and like where people are
20:24
getting their news and then the
20:25
algorithm sort of directs them towards
20:28
things that are going to piss them off
20:30
which I don’t even think necessarily was
20:33
initially the plan I think the plan is
20:35
to accelerate engagement right so they
20:37
find out what what what you’re engaging
20:40
with what stories you’re engaging with
20:41
and then they give you more of that like
20:44
re my friend Ari Shaffir actually tried
20:47
this out and what he did was he went on
20:50
YouTube and only looked puppy videos and
20:54
that’s all he looked at for like weeks
20:56
and then YouTube only started
20:58
recommending puppy videos to him so it’s
21:01
not necessarily that Facebook wants you
21:04
to be outraged but that when you are
21:06
outraged whether it’s over abortion or
21:08
war whatever the subject is you’re going
21:10
to engage more and their algorithm
21:12
favors you engaging more so if you’re
21:14
engaging more about something very
21:16
positive you know if you’re all about
21:17
yoga and meditation your algorithm would
21:20
probably favor yoga and meditation
21:22
because those are the things that you
21:23
engage with but it’s natural for people
21:26
to be pissed off sure to look for things
21:29
that are annoying especially if you’re
21:30
done working and you’re like kind this
21:31
world sucks what’s going on that sucks
21:33
worse and then you go to your Facebook
21:35
and oh Jesus look at this goddamn border
21:37
crisis right oh Jesus look at this while
21:39
fucking here’s the problem with these
21:41
goddamn liberal they don’t know sure and
21:42
you engage and then that’s your life and
21:46
then it’s it’s saying oh I know how to
21:47
get mad all fired up I’m gonna fucking
21:49
send them some abortion stories whoa
21:51
right and then that’s your feed right
21:53
yeah exactly but the but there’s so many
21:55
economic incentives that go in there
21:57
right they know the
21:58
more that you engage the longer that
22:01
you’re on right the more ads yes you can
22:03
you’re gonna see yeah right so that same
22:05
dynamic that Facebook and and the social
22:08
media companies figure it out
22:10
which is that if you keep feeding
22:12
something somebody something that you
22:14
know has been proven to spin that person
22:16
up and get them wound up that they’re
22:18
gonna they’re gonna come back for more
22:20
of it and they’re gonna keep coming back
22:22
and actually you can expand their desire
22:24
just to see that stuff by by making them
22:27
sort of more angry overall and they will
22:31
they will come back and they will spend
22:33
more and more and more time well the
22:34
news companies figured out the same
22:35
thing and they’re just they’re just
22:36
funneling stuff at you that they know
22:39
you’re gonna you’re gonna just be in an
22:42
endless cycle of sort of an impotent
22:43
mute rage all the time but it’s kind of
22:46
addicting you know and they know that
22:48
and in there and it’s it’s sort of like
22:50
the tobacco companies they know it’s a
22:51
bet it’s a product that’s bad for you
22:53
and they just keep giving it to you
22:55
because you know it makes money for them
22:56
yeah and it’s just the thing about it is
23:00
all of it is about ads told how many
23:04
clicks they get in ads if they just said
23:06
you can have a social media company but
23:08
you can’t have ads there’s a new federal
23:11
law no more ads on Facebook no more ads
23:13
on YouTube no our ads on Twitter no more
23:16
ads on Instagram good luck right yeah
23:19
we’re all collapse yo yeah but that
23:22
seems to be what it is it’s like they
23:24
figured out that your data is worth a
23:26
tremendous amount of money and the way
23:29
they can utilize that money is to sell
23:31
advertising mm-hmm ya know they they
23:33
coulda coming and going because they’re
23:35
they’re not only selling you ads or but
23:38
they’re also collecting the information
23:39
about your habits which they can then
23:41
sell again yeah so it’s a it’s a dual
23:43
revenue stream you know is it the media
23:46
companies they’re basically they’re just
23:49
consumer businesses where they’re
23:51
they’re trading attention for ad space
23:53
right so if they can get you to watch
23:55
four hours of television a day they have
23:57
that many ad slots that they can show
23:59
you and they know how much money they’re
24:00
gonna make you know but the the social
24:02
media companies get it two ways they’re
24:04
they they get it by you know attracting
24:06
your eyeballs and then also selling
24:08
selling your habits to the other the
24:10
next set of advertise
24:11
which you know is very insidious but
24:13
what’s interesting about this is that
24:14
most people don’t think about this as a
24:17
consumer business right like Americans
24:19
these days are very conscious of like
24:20
what they put in their bodies
24:21
you know they won’t eat too many candy
24:23
bowl depending on who they are right but
24:25
people at least look at what the
24:26
calories are but they don’t think about
24:28
the news that way or social media like
24:31
that with it put on their brains and
24:32
it’s also a consumer product yeah it
24:34
really is I’ve gone over that many times
24:37
with people that that’s a diet this is
24:39
your diet you have a mental diet as well
24:41
as you have a physical like food diet
24:43
absolutely of an information diet and a
24:46
lot of people are just eating shit with
24:48
their brain it’s the worst kind of junk
24:50
food it’s like it’s like a cigarette
24:52
sandwich the stuff yeah it’s so fucking
24:54
bad and it’s getting worse it is it is
24:56
getting worse and it’s what’s weird is
24:58
that this is a ten-year-old problem and
25:00
no one saw it coming and it’s kind of
25:02
overtaking politics it’s overtaking the
25:04
social discourse everybody’s wrapped up
25:07
in social media conversations they carry
25:09
them on over to the dinner table and it
25:11
gets people in arguments at work and all
25:14
this stuff no one saw coming these that
25:17
no one saw the this outrage economy from
25:21
you know social media sites from things
25:23
like Facebook no one saw that no one no
25:25
one ever predicted that your data was
25:27
gonna be so valuable no the fuck saw
25:29
that I don’t think anybody I mean I
25:32
think some people in the tech business
25:33
probably saw early on yeah it’s a
25:35
potential for this but you know in terms
25:38
of other other businesses like the news
25:41
media and also politics I mean you have
25:43
to think about the impact of this on
25:45
politics has been enormous
25:47
you know I covered Donald Trump Trump
25:50
really was just all about whatever
25:52
you’re pissed off about I’m right there
25:54
with you you know and people are just
25:56
sort of pissed off about lots of things
25:58
these days because they’re doing this
25:59
all day long you know and if you if you
26:02
can if you can take advantage of that
26:05
then you’re gonna have a lot of success
26:06
and I think I think a lot of people
26:07
haven’t figured that out and some of
26:09
these things are real causes like people
26:11
are upset about real things but it’s
26:14
just yeah you’re absolutely right people
26:16
did not see this coming and they didn’t
26:18
prepare for it’s just weird that it’s
26:19
one of the biggest sources of income on
26:22
and people didn’t see it coming I mean
26:24
Facebook is generating billions of
26:27
dollars and now yeah potentially
26:29
shifting global politics yeah and you
26:33
know the the whole issue of a couple of
26:36
companies like Facebook having control
26:39
over what you do and do not see is yeah
26:41
it’s an enormous problem that nobody
26:43
nobody really cares about I’ve tried to
26:45
write about it a few times I’ve written
26:47
a couple of features about it what about
26:49
how what a serious problem this is look
26:51
if you look at other countries like
26:53
Israel China there there are a number of
26:58
companies where you’ve seen this this
26:59
pattern of internet platforms
27:02
liaison with the government to decide
27:04
what people can and cannot see and
27:06
they’ll say well we don’t want to see
27:09
you know Palestinian protest movement so
27:11
we don’t want to see you know the
27:13
Venezuelan Channel tell us or like we
27:16
want to take that off you think about
27:18
how that could end up happening in the
27:20
United States and it is already a little
27:21
bit happening it’s a little bit but it
27:23
seems to be happening only in the terms
27:25
of like leaning towards the progressive
27:27
side which people are okay with because
27:28
they think especially in the light of
27:30
Donald Trump being in office this is
27:32
acceptable censorship yeah but they’re I
27:34
think they’re wrong about I think you’re
27:36
wrong about that – yeah and terribly
27:38
dangerous
27:38
it’s very short-sighted yes in and they
27:41
and I think there’s there’s also this
27:43
thing that happens with people where
27:46
they think well this is never gonna
27:48
happen to me you know like you can do
27:50
that bad thing to this person that I
27:52
don’t like but you know as long as it’s
27:53
never gonna happen to me exactly but
27:55
they’re wrong and my history shows it
27:57
always does happen to you you know and
27:58
that’s so we’re giving these companies
28:00
an enormous amount of power to decide
28:02
all kinds of things what we look at what
28:06
what kind of political ideas we can be
28:08
exposed to you know I think it’s very
28:11
very dangerous
28:11
that biased interpretation of what
28:13
something is that was what people talked
28:16
about when the initial Patriot Act was
28:18
enacted when people were like hey this
28:21
might be fine with Obama in office right
28:23
maybe Obama is not going to enact some
28:28
of the worst clauses of this and use it
28:30
on people or the was the NDAA so I would
28:34
rise yeah
28:35
where some of the things were just
28:36
completely unconstitutional but don’t
28:38
worry we’re not gonna use those but
28:40
you’re setting these tools aside for
28:43
whatever fucking president we have like
28:45
what if we have a guy you out trumps
28:46
Trump right I mean we never thought we’d
28:48
have a Trump right what if we have a
28:50
next-level guy post Trump what if
28:52
there’s some sort of catastrophe tragedy
28:56
attack something that really gets people
28:59
fired up and they vote in someone who
29:01
takes it up to another level and then he
29:03
has these tools and then he uses these
29:04
tools on his political enemies which is
29:06
entirely possible well I mean we’ve
29:08
already seen that a little bit I mean
29:10
people don’t want to bring this up I
29:11
mean i but you know a lot of the stories
29:14
that have come out about Trump they’re
29:15
coming from leaks of classified
29:17
information that are coming from those
29:19
war on terror programs that were
29:21
instituted after 9/11 yes this is five
29:23
the certifies Amendments Act the NSA
29:26
programs to collect data like they’re
29:27
they’re unmasking people like we have a
29:30
lot of evidence now that there was a
29:32
lawsuit a couple that came out about a
29:33
month ago that showed that the FBI was
29:37
doing something like 60,000 searches a
29:39
month at one point where they’re on you
29:42
know they were asking the NSA for the
29:44
ability to unmask names and that that
29:45
sort of thing so we’re I mean these
29:49
tools are incredibly powerful they’re
29:51
incredibly dangerous but people thought
29:52
after 9/11 they were scared so you know
29:55
we want to protect ourselves so that’s
29:57
okay for now
29:58
you know well we’ll pull it back later
30:00
but they mean it but you never do pull
30:02
it back right no and I mean it always
30:04
ends up being used by somebody in the
30:06
wrong way and I think we’re starting to
30:08
see that that’s going to be a problem
30:09
yeah I’m real concerned about places
30:13
like Google and Facebook altering the
30:16
path of free speech and and leaning
30:20
people in certain directions and
30:21
silencing people that have opposing
30:23
viewpoints and the fact that they think
30:26
that they’re doing this for good because
30:28
this is how they see the world and they
30:30
don’t understand that you have to let
30:32
these ideas play out in the marketplace
30:34
of free speech and free ideas if you
30:36
don’t do that if you don’t do that if
30:38
you don’t let people debate the merits
30:40
the pros the cons what’s wrong what’s
30:42
right if you don’t do that then you
30:44
don’t get real discourse if you don’t
30:45
get real discourse you’re essentially
30:47
you’ve got some sort
30:48
of an intellectual dictatorship going on
30:49
and because it’s a progressive
30:51
dictatorship you think it’s okay because
30:53
it’s people who want everybody be
30:55
inclusive and you know I mean this is
30:58
this is a weird time for that it’s a
31:00
really weird time for that because as
31:01
you said people are so short-sighted
31:03
they don’t understand that these like
31:05
the First Amendment’s in place for a
31:07
very good reason and set up a long
31:09
fucking time ago because they did the
31:10
math they saw where it was going and
31:12
they were like look we have to have the
31:14
ability to express ourselves we have to
31:15
have the ability to freely express
31:18
thoughts and ideas and challenge people
31:20
that are in a position of power because
31:21
if we don’t we wind up exactly where we
31:24
came from mm-hmm yeah no and and courts
31:27
continually reaffirmed that idea that
31:30
the the the way to deal with bad speech
31:33
was with more speech yes and they did it
31:35
over and over and over again you know we
31:37
we the the legal standard for speech you
31:41
know still I think remains that unless
31:45
it’s directly inciting violence you
31:46
couldn’t you could like you can have
31:47
speech that incites violence generally
31:49
and even the the Supreme Court even
31:51
upheld that you can have speech that’s
31:53
that comes from you know material that
31:55
was stolen illegally that’s okay but we
31:58
had a very very high bar for prohibiting
32:00
speech always and you know the the
32:03
liable cases this the cases for
32:05
defamation you know that also
32:08
established a very very high standard
32:09
for punishing speech but now all of a
32:12
sudden people have a completely
32:13
different idea but it’s like you know
32:15
forget about the fact that this was a
32:17
fundamental concept in American society
32:19
for you know two hundred and thirty
32:21
years or what they just want to change
32:22
it you know without thinking about the
32:25
consequences well that’s where a guy
32:26
like Trump could be almost like it’s
32:30
almost like a Trojan horse in a way like
32:33
if you wanted to play 3d chess which you
32:35
would do you’d get a guy who’s just so
32:37
egregious and so outrageous and then so
32:40
many people opposed them get that guy
32:42
let him get into a position of power and
32:44
then sit back watch the outrage bubble
32:46
and then take advantage of that and
32:48
funnel people into certain directions I
32:50
mean I don’t think that’s what’s
32:51
happening but if I was super fucking
32:54
tinfoil Hattie that’s how I would go
32:57
about it I would say this is what you
32:58
want if you really want to change things
33:00
for your direction
33:01
put someone that opposes it that’s
33:04
disgusting and that way people just a
33:07
rational intelligent person is never
33:10
gonna side with him
33:11
so they’re gonna side with the people
33:12
that oppose him and then you could sneak
33:14
a lot of shit in that maybe they
33:15
wouldn’t agree with and any other
33:16
circumstance yeah Trump’s election sort
33:19
of like another 9/11 right like you know
33:21
9/11 happened all of a sudden people who
33:23
weren’t in favor of the government being
33:25
able to go through your library records
33:27
or listen to your phone calls and all of
33:29
a sudden they were like oh Jesus I’m so
33:30
freaked out like yeah fine when Trump
33:33
got elected all of a sudden people
33:34
suddenly had very different ideas about
33:36
speech and like they you know hey that
33:39
guy’s so bad you know that maybe we
33:42
should consider banning x y&z yeah and I
33:46
yeah it’s me if he was conceived as a
33:52
way to discredit the First Amendment and
33:55
some other ideas that would that would
33:57
that would be a brilliant 3d chess move
33:59
yeah super sneaky yeah that’s like China
34:02
level many steps ahead exactly I mean
34:07
what do you think all this goes it seems
34:11
like this is I mean obviously just wrote
34:13
a book about it but it seems like this
34:15
is accelerating and it doesn’t seem like
34:18
anyone’s taking a step back and hitting
34:20
the brakes or opting out it seems like
34:23
people are just ramping up the rhetoric
34:25
yeah I mean I think that the the
34:27
divisive miss problem is is going to get
34:29
worse before it gets better
34:32
the the business model of of of the
34:35
media now is so entrenched that until
34:39
some of these these companies start
34:42
going out of business because they’re
34:43
doing you know they’re losing audience
34:46
because people don’t trust them anymore
34:48
the you know the news is going to keep
34:50
doing what it’s doing it’s gonna Canada
34:52
model is gonna become normal for for
34:55
news companies I think it or it already
34:57
basically is you know on both the left
34:59
and the right and in terms of you know
35:02
the Internet companies they’re
35:05
consolidating they’re getting more and
35:06
more power all the time and there’s I I
35:09
think we’ve already seen that people
35:11
have I think too much tolerance for
35:13
letting letting them make decisions
35:14
about
35:15
what we can and cannot see and I think
35:18
it’s gonna get worse before it gets
35:19
better I don’t know what do you think I
35:20
yeah that’s what I think I mean Facebook
35:22
Twitter all these play Twitter has some
35:24
of the most ridiculous reasons for
35:25
banning people one of them is dead
35:27
naming oh yeah
35:28
so if you call Caitlyn Jenner Bruce
35:30
right okay I like you better when you
35:32
were Bruce banned for life right you
35:34
can’t even say I liked you better when
35:35
you were Bruce banned for life right
35:38
yeah and and and actually that that
35:40
what’s really interesting about that is
35:42
that’s a that’s a core concept that
35:46
we’ve changed completely like all the
35:48
different ways in the past that we
35:49
punished speech we punished the speech
35:52
not the person yes right so if you know
35:55
liable defamation all those things first
35:58
of all they were all done through the
35:59
courts so you had a way to fight back if
36:02
you thought you were unjustly accused of
36:04
having defamed somebody or live with
36:05
somebody but if they found against you
36:08
the person who got something out of it
36:11
was the person who was directly harmed
36:12
right and again the courts judged that
36:14
and they you know it wasn’t like you
36:17
were banned from for life from ever
36:19
speaking again right they just gave a
36:21
bunch of money to a person who might
36:23
have suffered some kind of career injury
36:24
or whatever it was because of that and
36:28
usually there was a retraction or it was
36:30
removed from the press or whatever it
36:31
was but it wasn’t like we were we were
36:33
saying we’re never gonna allow you to be
36:35
hurt or seen from again we kind of won’t
36:38
we were sort of encouraging
36:39
optimistically people to get better
36:41
right and yeah and to be different right
36:44
now and now we’re not doing that at all
36:45
now we’re just saying you won one strike
36:47
or two strikes whatever you’re gone and
36:49
it’s not like it’s a public thing so you
36:52
can’t sue over it right yeah well that’s
36:54
what’s crazy about it because it is a
36:56
public utility in a way yes it is even
36:59
Jack Dorsey from Twitter and admitted as
37:02
much on the podcast and he wishes that
37:04
we would view it that way he’s actually
37:05
proposed two versions of Twitter a
37:08
Twitter with their standard censorship
37:11
in place and then a Wild West Twitter
37:13
mm-hmm but I’m like sign me up right
37:15
yeah on that Wild West Twitter right is
37:17
the problem with like things like gab
37:19
and I’ve gone there a few times and
37:22
watched it and I mean even Milo Union
37:24
appleís is criticized for being this is
37:26
that it’s just like so hate-filled
37:27
because it’s the place where you can go
37:29
and
37:29
fuckin say anything right so the only
37:31
people that it’s attracting are people
37:33
that just want to go there and just
37:34
fucking shoot off canons of n-bombs and
37:36
RAL everybody a kike it’s crazy
37:39
I mean it’s and there’s real
37:41
communication there as well there’s
37:43
there’s plenty of that too but the sheer
37:47
number of people that go there just to
37:49
blow off steam because they can’t say
37:51
those things on Twitter or Facebook or
37:53
any other social media platform without
37:55
being banned because of that it becomes
37:57
a channel for it mm-hmm you know and
37:59
it’s like it doesn’t get a chance it
38:01
doesn’t get a chance to the concept is
38:03
great the concept is if you’re not doing
38:05
anything illegal we’re not gonna stop
38:07
you’re not daxing anybody you’re not
38:08
threatening anybody’s life we’re not
38:09
gonna stop you go ahead but if you you
38:11
do that and you’re the only one that
38:13
does that unfortunately everyone who
38:15
wants to just say fucked up shit goes
38:18
right and you get a disproportionate
38:19
amount of fucked up shit
38:21
yeah and it’s directly because the fact
38:23
that these places like Twitter or
38:24
Facebook have censored and they make it
38:27
so you are scared to say whatever you
38:29
want to say mm-hmm and so you can so
38:31
even if you have controversial ideas
38:33
that maybe some people would agree with
38:34
in someone you get banned for life for
38:37
just controversial ideas even
38:39
controversial ideas that are
38:40
scientifically and biologically factual
38:43
right the transgender issue like if you
38:46
say there’s a woman I brought her up a
38:48
million times when Megan Murphy yes a
38:51
man is never a woman she says they tell
38:53
her to take it down she takes a
38:55
screenshot of it puts that up takes it
38:57
down but takes a screenshot of the
38:59
initial tweet haha look at that banned
39:02
for life right a man is never a woman is
39:04
a fact that is a fact it’s a biological
39:06
fact now if you decide to become a woman
39:09
and we recognize you as a woman in
39:11
society well that’s just common courtesy
39:12
in my eyes like you have a person who
39:14
has this issue they feel like they were
39:16
born in the wrong body okay I get that
39:18
I’m cool with that
39:19
but to make it so that you’re banned
39:21
forever you can call someone a dumb fuck
39:24
an idiot a piece of shit your mother
39:27
should have swallowed you everybody’s
39:28
like yeah do Petain Terms of Service
39:29
seem fine here everything’s good say a
39:32
man is never a woman gone for life right
39:35
yeah Caitlyn Jenner I liked you better
39:37
when you’re bruce dunn that’s it yeah no
39:40
and and it’s crazy and obviously
39:42
people see that and they and they just
39:44
get matter and and it seems to
39:46
legitimate
39:47
it makes people very very resentful in
39:50
ways that they wouldn’t be otherwise it
39:52
makes there’s no pathway there’s no
39:54
there’s no other thing right there’s no
39:56
free speech platform that’s universally
39:59
accepted like these ones like I said
40:02
like gab or there’s a couple other ones
40:03
out there there’s not no one’s using
40:06
them yeah it’s a very small percentage
40:07
of the people in comparison to something
40:09
like Twitter which is enormous right and
40:11
so because people don’t want to be
40:13
kicked off the platform they’re
40:14
radically changing there is no sense
40:18
right and we’re seeing this a lot also
40:19
with political ideas to like you know
40:22
you know I have a podcast used useful
40:24
idiots it’s called right we’re like we
40:26
try to talk to people who are kind of
40:28
excluded from mainstream media because
40:30
that’s happening a lot now right like if
40:32
you have the wrong idea about anything
40:35
whether it’s Russia gate or the
40:38
israel-palestine conflict or Syria or
40:40
whatever it is you’ll you will suddenly
40:44
be sort of labeled I mean with tulsi
40:46
gabbard friends they call her an
40:47
assadist right like once you get stuck
40:50
with the term assadist on twitter nobody
40:52
wants to associate you with you no one
40:54
wants to defend you right they all kind
40:56
of and be it’s your you’re like suddenly
40:59
like the kid with lice and people don’t
41:02
want that to happen to them so they stop
41:04
saying X Y & Z yeah right and and they
41:06
just sort of go with with the flow will
41:08
go with the crowd and it causes this
41:10
sort of you know uniform conformist
41:16
discourse that does isn’t really about
41:18
anything right people are afraid to talk
41:20
which is crazy yeah right well you’re
41:23
not supposed to talk to someone I
41:25
experience this all the time the this
41:27
idea of giving someone a platform like
41:29
look if I have someone on like a ben
41:31
shapiro or something like that you
41:32
shouldn’t give that guy a platform well
41:34
he’s already got a platform should
41:36
wouldn’t be better if I just talk to him
41:37
and find out what his ideas are and ask
41:40
him about those ideas like we had a very
41:41
bizarre conversation about gay people
41:43
where it means basically full on
41:46
biblical religious interpretation of gay
41:49
people which to me is always strange
41:52
like okay how do you stand on shellfish
41:54
you know do you
41:56
just as strong on shrimp whereas your on
41:59
gay guys right like why is it gay guys
42:02
it’s that like the Bible’s pretty clear
42:05
on a bunch of different things that
42:07
don’t seem to fire people up the way
42:10
homosexuality does like why why do you
42:13
care if you had a friend that was eating
42:14
shrimp would you go to his house we had
42:16
shrimp cocktail no but you wouldn’t go
42:18
to a friend’s house if he was having a
42:20
gay marriage mm-hmm so you won’t
42:23
celebrate gay marriage but you don’t
42:25
mind a guy who’s got a fucking a
42:27
shellfish platter right out at a party
42:30
like that’s in the Bible man right
42:33
you’re not supposed to wear two
42:33
different kinds of cloth you you know
42:36
that is the bunt there’s a bunch of shit
42:38
in the Bible that you like Wow God was
42:40
wrong about that like how confident are
42:42
you right how comforting you that you
42:44
can interpret God’s Word so perfectly
42:46
that you’re like you let the lobster
42:48
slide but all that but fucking we got to
42:50
stop that you know like it’s really
42:52
weird but that’s the whole point of you
42:54
to challenge the idea yes yes but but
42:57
the prevailing view now is that even
43:00
having the discussion yes because you
43:03
have a platform I mean I read that thing
43:05
in Al and the Atlantic you know where
43:06
they’re like you you you give people to
43:09
I forget what the phrase was they were
43:11
saying something like you had I give to
43:14
people too many chances too many chances
43:15
the people who had already forfeited the
43:17
right to have them or something
43:18
something along those lines but that was
43:20
silly yeah guy gave up his hand when he
43:21
said about me that I’m inexhaustible but
43:24
that he like snaps right oh it’s about
43:27
you and now that’s what it is you not
43:30
you like naps okay so you don’t like
43:32
people that have energy I’m super sorry
43:34
but the the you know I thought that
43:36
piece was really interesting because
43:38
that the whole idea that there are
43:40
people who have forfeited the right to
43:42
take a forever to communicate forever
43:44
well who decides that I mean it again
43:46
there’s this there’s this intellectual
43:48
snob ISM yet goes on and you know
43:52
frankly on my side of the media aisle
43:54
where well we’ll decide what what an
43:56
appropriate thought is what’s what’s
43:58
right thinking what’s wrong thinking you
44:01
know what who gets to have a platform
44:03
who doesn’t get to have a platform who
44:04
we who were gonna call a monster who are
44:06
not currently I mean Minh Tunder stand
44:09
that the arrogance where
44:10
from to decide that some people you know
44:13
and I totally disagree with people like
44:14
you know Alex Jones or Shapiro or you
44:17
know most things and but I don’t think
44:20
that they should be wiped off the face
44:21
of the earth I mean I don’t know
44:23
well it’s interesting to challenge
44:24
people on these weird ideas and find out
44:26
how they come to them and and you will
44:28
get a lot of fence sitters that will
44:30
recognize the flaws in their thinking if
44:32
you let them talk because there’s a lot
44:34
of people that aren’t sure either way
44:35
maybe they haven’t invested a lot of
44:37
time investigating it maybe they really
44:39
don’t know what this guy stands for
44:41
maybe they just read a cartoonish
44:42
version of who he is and then you get to
44:44
hear them talking to go oh well I see
44:46
the flaw in his thinking or oh well he’s
44:49
right about some things and a lot of
44:50
people are right about some things
44:52
they’re wrong about things and they’re
44:54
right about things and the only way you
44:55
can discern that is you communicate with
44:58
them but as soon as you deep platform
44:59
people like forever you’re just gonna
45:01
make a bunch of angry people you’re just
45:03
gonna make a bunch of people that are
45:05
completely distrusting and you’re gonna
45:07
absolutely empower the opponents of your
45:10
ideas but like people that do get to
45:13
when when do they get a chance to have
45:14
their voice well when they vote so the
45:17
more you do this shit the more you
45:18
censor conservatives the more they’re
45:20
gonna vote against liberals this is just
45:22
a fact
45:23
mm-hmm there’s no getting around that
45:24
this is human nature yeah I mean I I
45:26
lived in the former Soviet Union you
45:30
know for 11 years and 100% if you lived
45:36
in Soviet Russia and something was
45:38
published by an official publisher
45:40
people thought it was basically bullshit
45:42
right but if it was in the samizdat if
45:45
it was in the privately circled stuff
45:47
that had been repressed and censored
45:48
people thought that was the coolest
45:50
thing in the world like that that was
45:51
the hot ticket right and you’re
45:53
automatically giving something cachet
45:56
and an added weight by censoring it I
46:01
mean this is just proof it’s just the
46:02
way it works it’s human nature if people
46:04
think that you don’t want them to see
46:05
something they’re gonna run through it
46:07
twice as hard you know so I just don’t
46:09
understand a lot of that instinct I
46:11
think people people have this idea that
46:13
it works that you know the deep
46:16
platforming works but you can’t deep
46:18
platformer an idea you know you may be
46:20
able to do it to a person or to yes but
46:23
you eventually
46:23
you have to confront the idea you could
46:25
do it to a few people and it has been
46:27
successful which is one of the reason
46:28
why people are so emboldened like they
46:30
have a successful IDI platform Milo
46:32
mm-hmm I mean they really have it’s very
46:34
hard to hear him talk anymore you don’t
46:36
he’s not in the public conversation the
46:39
way he used to be right because they
46:41
kicked him off of all these different
46:42
platforms and if you go into why they
46:45
kicked him off these different platforms
46:46
but even if you don’t agree with him and
46:48
I don’t own a lot of things like boy I
46:51
don’t agree with kicking him off those
46:52
platforms if you you listen to what he
46:54
got kicked off for it’s like man I don’t
46:56
know this this doesn’t seem like this
46:58
makes a lot of sense yeah no I mean the
47:01
same thing with Alex Jones
47:02
yeah Alex Alex Jones has said you know
47:05
he’s got after me a couple of times in
47:07
ways that were pretty funny actually but
47:09
when he was you know kicked off the all
47:12
these platforms you know I wrote a piece
47:14
saying I think people are kind of doing
47:16
an end zone dance a little early on this
47:18
one you know because you Jones is a
47:22
classic example of how the system
47:25
the way the system used to work they
47:26
would have punished him for for being in
47:29
the libelous about the Sandy Hook thing
47:31
right because that that would sort of
47:33
fit the classic definition of what was
47:34
what prohibited speech was before but we
47:37
wouldn’t any he would have lost probably
47:39
a lot and he still might on in those
47:41
court cases but to remove him forever I
47:44
think you know it just sets it it
47:48
creates a new way of dealing with speech
47:51
that I think is very dangerous you know
47:53
right because the goalposts keep getting
47:54
moved right if you can ban him for that
47:57
then why don’t you ban me for repeating
47:59
the things that I said about Megan
48:01
Murphy right or ban because what I said
48:03
about Bruce Jenner banned this for that
48:06
I mean you it gets you get further and
48:08
further down the line you keep moving
48:09
these goalposts and next thing you know
48:11
you’re in a very rigid tightly
48:13
controlled area where you can
48:15
communicate and you’re suppressed and
48:17
that just it accelerates your desire to
48:21
step out of that boundary and it makes
48:23
you want to say things that maybe you
48:24
wouldn’t even have thought of before and
48:26
also logistically it’s an incredibly
48:28
it’s a it’s an insane thing to even
48:31
think about asking platforms to
48:34
rationally go through all this content I
48:36
talked to somebody who
48:37
a pretty high-ranking Facebook executive
48:38
after the Alex Jones thing and he said
48:41
think about what we used to used to do
48:42
just to keep porn off Facebook and we’re
48:46
dealing with what a couple of billion
48:48
items of content every single day we had
48:50
these really high-tech algorithms that
48:52
we design to look for flesh tones at
48:54
that site and that’s how the Vietnamese
48:57
running girl photo got taken off
48:59
Facebook because they like automatically
49:01
spotted a naked girl I know and they
49:04
took that down you know the he’s like
49:07
the Facebook I’ll go doesn’t know that’s
49:08
an icon of fucking journalism right like
49:10
it just knows it’s a naked girl so you
49:13
say you take that and now you’re gonna
49:15
ask Facebook to make decisions about
49:17
about ideas right like if it’s that hard
49:21
and that expensive for us to go through
49:23
and just just to keep child porn off of
49:27
Facebook think about how crazy it’s
49:29
gonna be when we when we start having
49:31
entry-level people deciding what is and
49:33
is not appropriate political content
49:35
yeah it’s it’s not only gonna be
49:37
impossible to enforce it’s it’s gonna
49:41
they’re gonna make a mess of it and they
49:43
will and they already are you know and I
49:44
think that’s what we’re seeing well
49:46
that’s why Twitter so weird because you
49:48
can get away with shit on Facebook you
49:50
can say things on Facebook like Facebook
49:52
doesn’t have a policy about dead naming
49:54
or Facebook doesn’t have a policy about
49:56
misgendering people but they do have a
49:59
porn policy
50:00
well now Twitter you can have porn right
50:04
me then I will have to be very careful
50:06
when I give my phone to my kids
50:08
that make sure they don’t open up the
50:09
fucking Twitter app yeah because I
50:11
follow a lot of dirty girls and some of
50:12
them I mean they’re it’s just right
50:15
there there’s no warning bang right in
50:17
your face I mean it’s kind of crazy
50:18
right they have such an open policy when
50:22
it comes to sex which I’m happy they do
50:24
I’m happy not even that I want to see
50:26
porn but I’m happy that their attitude
50:28
is just fine it’s legal do yeah you
50:32
don’t have to follow those people if you
50:33
don’t like it seems like it’s in the
50:35
American spirit to be I know but but it
50:38
all comes down to for me but but ya know
50:41
the the policies are completely
50:43
inconsistent to with with Twitter like
50:45
I’ve seen I mean I’ve talked to people
50:46
who have been removed from Twitter for
50:49
saying pretty
50:50
you know pretty borderline things right
50:53
like they’re you know basically pretty
50:55
mild insults or something that would be
50:57
threatening only if you really splinted
50:59
hard you know
51:00
there was a guy from the Ron Paul
51:01
Institute who got this who got taken
51:03
down for instance because he was having
51:04
a fight with some you know guy who was I
51:07
think a Clinton fan I forget what it was
51:09
exactly but you’ll see behavior that’s
51:13
much worse from people who have another
51:16
political ilk and they will not be
51:18
removed or they might be a smaller
51:20
profile person they won’t be removed so
51:22
and then what is that all about right
51:24
like if if it’s only a person who has
51:25
20,000 followers or higher we’re gonna
51:27
mean it’s just so you just can’t do it
51:30
there’s just too many layers and anyway
51:33
I’m against it just generally but just
51:35
in terms of logistics it doesn’t make
51:36
any sense I’m against it generally too
51:38
and when I talked to Jack and he was
51:39
explaining to me the problems with
51:41
trying to manage things at scale you
51:44
really kind of get a sense of it like oh
51:46
you guys are dealing with billions and
51:48
billions of humans using these things
51:50
right yeah yeah and and but they’re
51:53
already you know in many countries
51:56
around the world they have armies of
51:59
thousands of people who go through
52:01
content to try to flag this or that kind
52:03
of political content yeah in a niche
52:05
people yeah they have you know in
52:07
Germany has like it got I forget what
52:10
the term was they had this um some
52:11
really scary sort of authoritarian word
52:13
for like filtration centers or something
52:15
like that
52:16
you know the Chinese have have armies of
52:20
people I mean I did a story about
52:21
Facebook and how it was you know teaming
52:25
up with groups like the the Atlantic
52:27
Council here in the United States
52:28
remember a couple of years ago the
52:31
Senate called in Twitter Facebook and
52:33
Google to Washington and asked them to
52:37
devise strategies for preventing the
52:39
sowing of discord you know so they
52:41
basically what’s asking them to come up
52:44
with strategies for filtering out fake
52:47
news and then also certain kinds of
52:49
offensive content but you know that is a
52:53
stepping stone to what we’ve we’ve seen
52:55
in other countries I think you know and
52:57
I think it’s really worrisome but but
52:59
nobody seems to care on our side of the
53:01
aisle which is which is very strange
53:02
myself it’s
53:04
miles well it’s a it’s a censorship
53:06
issue you know and it’s it’s a
53:09
short-sighted thing as you said before
53:10
it’s people and it’s not even there’s
53:14
people that do pretty egregious things
53:16
from the left like the Covington school
53:18
thing when people were saying we got to
53:21
Doc’s these kids and give me their names
53:23
release their names these people are
53:25
still on Twitter to this day right
53:27
talking about kids that just happen to
53:28
have these make America great again hats
53:30
and I have a friend who used to live in
53:32
that area said like no you don’t get it
53:33
like there’s these stands these kids are
53:36
on the high school like field trip
53:38
there’s these stands we could buy these
53:39
hats everywhere these kids bought the
53:41
hats they’re they think they’re being
53:43
funny these guys play the music and then
53:45
get in their face you take a photo of it
53:47
it looks like this guy’s standing in
53:49
this Native American guy’s face but then
53:51
you see the whole video it’s no no the
53:53
Native American guy was playing his drum
53:54
walking towards him and then everybody
53:58
sorts probably it’s outrage cycle it’s
54:03
just so exhausting in a signaling
54:05
everyone’s signaling how virtuous they
54:07
are everyone’s signaling they’re on the
54:09
right side everyone’s signaling you know
54:11
I want names take these guys down like
54:14
you’re talking about sixteen year old
54:15
kids right it’s so fucking crazy and all
54:18
what is he Vic he’s guilty of smiling
54:20
was that what he guilt he’s guilty of
54:22
yeah no he’s got a mag a hat on I mean
54:24
yeah it’s crazy and the signaling thing
54:27
is crazy and you know for me the in the
54:30
in the news business a lot of people
54:32
that I know went into the when at the
54:35
journalism precisely because we didn’t
54:37
want to talk about our political views
54:39
like the whole point of the job is like
54:41
you know we’re just gonna tell you what
54:43
the facts are like not gonna tell you
54:44
about what I’m all about you can’t do
54:46
that anymore everything’s editorialize
54:48
everything is about editorializing and
54:51
signaling this is like what you’re
54:52
saying you’re telling people what your
54:55
stance is on things and that’s that’s
54:58
the opposite of what the job used to be
54:59
and this is again one of the things I’ve
55:01
been trying to focus on is that you know
55:04
what’s exactly what you’re talking about
55:05
people used to go to the news because
55:07
they wanted to find out what happened in
55:08
the world and they can’t do it anymore
55:10
because everything that you turn on
55:11
every kind of content is just
55:14
editorialized content where people are
55:16
sort of telling you
55:17
where they stand on things and you know
55:19
I don’t want to know that I wouldn’t
55:20
know what the information yes it’s so
55:22
hard how does this get resolved because
55:24
we’re dealing with essentially a two
55:26
decade old problem right I mean give or
55:28
take before that before the this the
55:32
social media and before the internet and
55:34
websites this justice wasn’t this wasn’t
55:37
what it was you could count on the New
55:38
York Times to give you an unbiased
55:41
version of what’s going on in the world
55:43
I don’t necessarily know that’s true
55:45
anymore no no other times has kind of
55:47
gone over to this model as well and
55:49
they’re super woke they’ve they’ve
55:50
struggled with it they they were that
55:52
there was an editorial and I wrote about
55:54
this in the in the book that the in the
55:56
summer of 2016 this guy Jim Ruttenberg
55:59
wrote the sort of this piece said Trump
56:00
is testing the norms of objectivity that
56:02
was the name of the piece and basically
56:05
what he said is Trump is so bad that we
56:06
have to look like rethink what
56:08
objectivity means we have to not only be
56:11
true but true to history’s judgment he
56:14
said and we have to have copious
56:16
coverage and a gret quote and aggressive
56:18
coverage so we’re gonna cover Trump a
56:19
lot we’re gonna cover him aggressively
56:21
and we’re gonna show you we’re gonna
56:23
take a stand on this issue rather than
56:26
just tell you what happened right so
56:28
rather than doing the traditional New
56:29
York Times thing of just the facts will
56:32
tell you sorted out right you figure out
56:34
we’re gonna tell you you know kind of
56:36
had it what your stance should be and
56:39
you know I think where does where do we
56:41
go from here how does it get resolved I
56:43
don’t know because you know unless the
56:46
the financial incentives change there
56:49
they’re not going to change you know the
56:51
business used to be back when you’re
56:54
talking about with New York Times and
56:55
then there were three networks and they
56:57
were all trying to get the whole
56:58
audience right so they were they were
57:00
they were doing that kind of neutral
57:02
fact-finding mission and it was working
57:04
for them financially now they can’t do
57:06
that because of the internet it’s it’s
57:07
you’re hunting for audience and little
57:09
groups yeah and they’re just giving you
57:11
hyper politicized stuff because that’s
57:12
the only way they can make money I don’t
57:14
know how we change it I don’t know how
57:15
we go you know we reverse it it’s it’s
57:18
it’s a problem it’s so interesting
57:20
though because I mean if you looked at
57:24
human interactions and if you looked at
57:27
you know dispensing news and information
57:30
and you follow trends from like the 30s
57:33
to the 40s to the 50s to the 60s to 70s
57:37
he’d be like oh well people are getting
57:38
better at this
57:39
people getting better whoa whoa what the
57:42
fuck is going on now everything is off
57:45
the rails yes two camps barking at each
57:47
other’s blatant misinformation on both
57:50
sides blatant distortions of the truth
57:52
blatant editorializing of facts and
57:55
you’re like hey what happened guys yeah
57:57
no it’s it’s it’s crazy and and not not
58:00
that the news didn’t have distortions
58:03
before like you think about you know we
58:07
covered up all sorts of thing you know
58:09
massacres in Cambodia a secret bombing
58:11
you know the use of Agent Orange like
58:14
it’s definitely I just didn’t appear in
58:15
the news in the degree it should now
58:18
though you turn on either MSNBC or Fox
58:22
and you’re right you’ll you’ll find
58:25
something that’s just totally full of
58:26
shit within five minutes usually and
58:28
that did not used to be the case you
58:32
know I think individual reporters used
58:35
to take a lot of pride in their work
58:36
you know and it’s different now now now
58:39
when you make mistakes in the business
58:41
you don’t you don’t get bounced out of
58:43
the business in the way you used to and
58:45
that’s that’s really strange like only
58:47
plagiarism plagiarism still bounces you
58:50
what plagiarism case is pretty yeah
58:52
that’s usually fatal right you’re not
58:54
gonna usually recover from that I mean
58:55
some people have kind of near in
58:57
problems with that and they they you
59:00
know I’m not gonna yes but but um but no
59:04
but you think about people who got
59:05
stories like w the WMD thing wrong right
59:08
not only do they not get bounced out of
59:10
the business they all got promoted you
59:12
know they’re like the editors of major
59:13
magazines now or you know and and so
59:16
what does that tell people in the
59:18
business well it tells you you know if
59:20
you screw up as long as you screw up
59:21
with a whole bunch of other people it’s
59:22
okay you know which is not good and and
59:25
we used to have a lot of pride about
59:26
that stuff in this business and that we
59:28
now we don’t anymore
59:29
you know and it it’s there isn’t the
59:33
shame connected with with screwing
59:34
something up that there used to be I
59:36
think there’s a real danger with in
59:38
terms of social media especially in not
59:42
complying to the Constitution
59:44
not complying to the First Amendment I
59:46
think there’s a real danger in that and
59:47
I don’t think we recognize that danger
59:49
because I don’t think we saw what social
59:51
media was until it was too late and then
59:53
by the time it was too late we had
59:55
already had these sort of standards in
59:58
place and the people that run it we’re
60:01
already getting away with enforcing
60:03
their own personal bias their
60:04
ideological bias and this is this is
60:08
that when you’re at this position where
60:10
you go well how does that ever get
60:11
resolved they’re not going to resolve it
60:13
on their own they’re still making ass
60:14
loads of money what he did is the
60:16
government resolved it well if Trump
60:18
steps in and resolves it looks like he’s
60:19
trying to resolve it to save his own
60:21
political career or right to into you
60:23
know to help his supporters it’s like
60:26
yeah no and and and no matter what if
60:29
Trump does anything about it
60:30
automatically everyone’s gonna be
60:32
against it right right you know even
60:33
even if it’s um even if there’s some
60:36
sense in there somewhere people won’t
60:37
won’t won’t get behind it but you know I
60:40
do anything about it it’s gonna be a
60:41
correction time there’s gonna be a gap
60:44
time where it’s gonna be like that where
60:46
it’s just gonna flood with people that
60:48
are just like with this newfound freedom
60:51
they’re just gonna go and shit up the
60:53
town you know but I mean but how would
60:55
you how would you fix it now like that’s
60:58
something because it’s not only about
60:59
rules it’s also about culture like
61:01
people have already they’re in this
61:02
pattern of you know not saying the wrong
61:06
thing right and they don’t
61:08
I think there’s we’re in a culture that
61:10
doesn’t even really know how to deal
61:13
with free speech if we actually had it
61:15
in the same way we used to you know no
61:16
one seems to have a forecast like no
61:19
one’s like well the storm is gonna last
61:20
about four years and then say there’s no
61:22
there’s no forecast no no one’s like wow
61:25
some fucking uncharted waters right
61:28
right but if you historically the
61:31
tendency is once you have a tool that
61:34
kind of can be used to keep people on
61:38
line and for enforce compliance of ideas
61:41
and then it always ends up worsening and
61:44
becoming more and more dictatorial and
61:46
authoritarian yes again you go back to
61:48
the Soviet example like once I started
61:50
you know really exercising a lot of
61:52
control over the press and literature
61:54
and things like that it didn’t get
61:56
better you
61:57
it just continued becoming more of a you
62:00
know an entrenched thing until so I
62:02
that’s what I worry about I think they
62:04
were headed more in that direction yeah
62:06
I think so too
62:07
I’m not really concerned with on both
62:10
sides when people dig their heels in
62:12
ideologically the other side just gets
62:14
even more convinced they’re correct oh
62:15
yeah yeah and there’s no cross dialogue
62:20
of any kind not anymore
62:23
there and even now I mean it’s it’s
62:26
interesting you had you had Bernie
62:29
Sanders on your show and Sanders all
62:31
it’s Sanders is one of the few
62:33
politicians left who has this idea that
62:36
we should talk to everybody like there’s
62:38
there are no illegitimate audiences out
62:39
there there know and like you know
62:41
that’s my job as a politician is to try
62:43
to convince you of things but that’s not
62:45
normal in the Democratic Party anymore I
62:47
mean Elizabeth Warren you know has made
62:51
a big thing about not going on Fox and
62:53
about having certain people taken taken
62:55
off Twitter and yeah and and I think
62:58
that’s increasingly the the sort of line
63:02
of thought in mainstream Democratic
63:04
Party thought now is is that we’re just
63:06
gonna rule out whatever whatever that is
63:09
47% of the electorate we’re just not
63:10
gonna talk to them anymore
63:11
right right yeah I I don’t know how
63:14
that’s that can possibly be a successful
63:16
political strategy then what and what
63:18
the point is you know I yeah no no it
63:21
doesn’t make any sense I was reading
63:24
something where people are going after
63:25
tells he gathered for being on Tucker
63:27
Carlson she’s like I’ll talk to
63:29
everybody and I’m glad she does and by
63:32
the way it’s like it’s hard for her
63:33
because she’s kind of an outside
63:34
candidate it’s hard for her to get time
63:36
on these other networks and so they want
63:39
to punish her for being on Tucker
63:40
Carlson’s and then they have this you
63:42
know reductionist view of who he is he’s
63:46
a white supremacist like to all she
63:48
supports white supremacists she goes on
63:49
a white supremacist show it okay is that
63:51
what he is really what he is and using
63:54
its knee a lot more than that there’s a
63:56
lot going on there right you guys are
63:58
fucking with life you know you’re
64:00
fucking with the reality of life and
64:03
you’re saying it in these sentences
64:05
you’re printing it out in these
64:06
paragraphs as
64:08
and you sending it out there
64:09
irresponsibly and it’s just really
64:11
strange that people don’t understand the
64:13
repercussions of that yeah that’s
64:15
something we talked about on our podcast
64:16
easily it’s all the time is that the
64:18
this it’s a catch-22 right like you you
64:22
don’t invite somebody like tulsi gabbard
64:24
on to CNN MSNBC where you they’re kind
64:28
of excluded from the same platform the
64:29
other politicians get so they go to
64:31
other platforms
64:32
all right and then you say oh you went
64:34
on that platform so you’re illegitimate
64:35
yes you know what do you want them to do
64:37
like you know what they do the same
64:39
thing with people who go on RT for
64:40
instance right oh well you’re helping
64:42
the Russians because you went on RT well
64:44
they’re that’s because you didn’t invite
64:46
them on any I mean yeah you their people
64:48
are gonna try to talk to anybody they
64:49
can to spread their ideas and that that
64:52
that kind of propaganda thing is is
64:54
pretty constant now in the use of the
64:57
term terms like what white supremacists
64:59
with Tucker Carlson I mean there there
65:01
are a million terms now that you use to
65:03
just kind of throw at people and what
65:05
they’re trying to do is create this ik
65:06
factor around people yeah right like
65:09
once you get someone gets a label
65:11
associated with them then nobody wants
65:14
to be associated with that person all
65:16
right Ryan they quickly kind of die out
65:18
of the public scene and that’s I think
65:20
that’s really bad too you know it’s it’s
65:22
like a it’s it’s just an
65:25
anti-intellectual way of dealing with
65:26
things and I and I think it’s it’s not
65:29
good it’s weird that it’s so prevalent
65:31
it’s weird that there’s so few
65:32
proponents of a more you know
65:36
open-minded way of thinking right yeah
65:38
and just to take the gap we had we had
65:42
Tulsa together on our show too and
65:44
immediately we got accused what do you
65:46
love Assad right do you want a bomb
65:49
Syrian sure you want to keep murder
65:50
Syrian children no I you know she’s a
65:52
presidential candidate and we want to
65:54
talk to want to hear what she has to say
65:55
but they immediately go to the
65:58
maximalist interpretation of everything
66:00
and then they’re what they’re basically
66:02
saying when they ask you those questions
66:04
are do you want to wear that label too
66:06
because she’s got it already
66:08
so if you have a run again you’re gonna
66:10
you’re you’re gonna have that label and
66:11
people they see that you know and and so
66:14
you know people who have who don’t have
66:16
a big following and who are worried
66:19
about their careers
66:21
in about you know the money and
66:23
advertisers and stuff like that they
66:24
they think twice about you know
66:26
interviewing that person the next time
66:27
yeah and here’s another way to get that
66:29
speech exactly and again I don’t know
66:32
how you get out of it you know and I
66:36
mean I’ve experienced some blowback I
66:39
guess but it doesn’t hasn’t worked yet
66:42
right you know I mean it’s not real it’s
66:45
just like it’s just words like okay well
66:48
but yeah and and but you’re handling it
66:50
the right way back I think people your
66:53
audience is rewarding you for for not
66:56
not bowing to it
66:58
you know and I think that more people if
67:01
they took that example and said I’m not
67:02
gonna listen to what the the pack says
67:05
about this I’m not gonna be afraid of
67:06
being called a name you know fuck that
67:09
I’m gonna talk to you I want to talk to
67:11
and I’m gonna gonna head you know
67:13
explore whatever ideas I want to explore
67:15
then the this kind of stuff wouldn’t be
67:18
as effective so yeah so easy to do to
67:22
people it’s so easy for them to deep
67:23
platform people yes always and shadow
67:26
banning and all this other weird shit
67:27
that’s going on yeah they’re channeling
67:30
people and and pushing people into these
67:34
areas of their platforms that makes them
67:38
less accessible and I know where it
67:40
comes from you know I was I was young
67:42
and politically active once you know you
67:44
you want to change the world you want to
67:46
make it a better place so you’re in
67:48
college and you don’t have any power you
67:50
don’t have any way to input make
67:54
something into legislation you know what
67:56
I mean yeah so what do you do you you
67:59
know social media gives you the illusion
68:01
that you’re having an impact in the
68:03
world by you know maybe getting somebody
68:05
deep platformed or taking off Twitter or
68:07
something like that it feels like it’s
68:08
political action that yeah but it’s not
68:11
you know what I mean it’s it’s it’s
68:12
something that they that is open to
68:14
people to do but it’s not the same as
68:18
you know getting 60 Congress 60 members
68:21
of the Senate to to raise taxes on a
68:24
corporation that’s been evading them for
68:26
20 years you know what I mean like
68:27
that’s that’s real action this you know
68:31
getting some random person taken off the
68:33
internet is just not change
68:34
you know but but people feel like it is
68:36
and they wanna they want to do the right
68:38
thing so I get it but no it’s it’s not
68:41
you know put real political action I
68:43
don’t think no it’s fucking gross yeah
68:49
and it just lead it’s there’s so much of
68:52
it on there’s so little logic also and
68:56
you this must be a personal thing for
68:59
you but it’s this is the unfunniest time
69:01
in American history
69:03
like yes no because you rewarded for for
69:07
stepping outside the box that’s true in
69:09
a big way mm-hmm like yeah you mean Dave
69:12
Chappelle gets attacked but guess what
69:14
he also gets rewarded in a huge way run
69:17
he goes on stage now people go ape shit
69:20
that’s true and part of the reason why
69:22
they go fucking bonkers is because they
69:24
know that this guy doesn’t give a fuck
69:26
and he’s one of the rare ones who
69:28
doesn’t give a fuck so when he goes up
69:29
there you know if he thinks something
69:32
crazy about whatever it is whatever
69:34
protected group or whatever idea that
69:37
he’s not supposed to explore that’s not
69:39
gonna stop him at all he’s gonna tell
69:40
you exactly what he thinks about those
69:42
things regardless of all this woke
69:44
blowback he’s not he doesn’t care right
69:46
so because of that he’s rewarded even
69:48
more and same thing with Bill burr
69:50
same thing with a lot of comics I
69:51
experienced it with my own jokes sure
69:53
did more controversial bits getting
69:55
people more fired up now they love it
69:57
because everyone’s smothered their
70:00
smothered by human resources and
70:02
smothered by office politics and you’re
70:04
smothered by social discourse
70:07
restrictions and he’s don’t feel like
70:10
you can express yourself any more this
70:12
is true and and and all people also
70:13
don’t have a they feel like they’re
70:15
being watched all the time yeah things
70:17
like that kind of can’t let it all hang
70:19
out anywhere right and and so that’s
70:21
yeah they they do feel incredibly like
70:24
repressed and under the gun yeah I think
70:26
that that’s that’s true yeah I just I
70:29
feel like it I mean I’m not a comic but
70:31
if but I just imagine it must be a more
70:34
challenging environment it’s more
70:35
challenging but more rewarding to my
70:37
friend ari said it best he said this is
70:39
a great time for comedy because comedies
70:41
dangerous again right that’s true yeah
70:43
that’s true yeah it’s kind of goes back
70:44
to like a Lenny Bruce era right
70:46
when you know you could kind of
70:48
completely freak people out with a
70:50
couple of saying a couple of sure yeah
70:53
for good or bad or prior yeah well you
70:56
like you saw it with like louis c.k
70:58
right louis ck’s under the microscope
71:00
now that joke that he made about
71:02
parkland is absolutely a louis c.k joke
71:06
if you followed him throughout his
71:08
career what was the joke again i’m sorry
71:10
the joke was why am i listening to these
71:12
parklands survivors why are you
71:13
interesting cuz you pushed some fat kid
71:16
in the way like see you’re laughing
71:18
right like that is a louis c.k joke he’s
71:23
saying something fucked up you’re not
71:24
supposed to say that is throughout his
71:26
goddamn career he’s done that that’s
71:28
always done but after the you know
71:32
jerking off in front of women all that
71:33
stuff and him coming out in admitting it
71:35
and then taking a bunch of time off now
71:37
he’s a target right now he does
71:38
something like that and they’re like oh
71:40
he’s all right now like no this is what
71:42
he’s always done right he’s always
71:44
taking this sort of contrarian outside
71:47
the box fucked up but hilarious take on
71:51
things and that bit
71:52
unfortunately because it was released by
71:54
someone who made a youtube video of it
71:56
he didn’t get a chance to he was gone
71:58
for ten months and he had only done a
71:59
couple sets when he was fleshing these
72:01
ideas out i guarantee you he would have
72:03
turned that idea into a brilliant bit
72:04
but he never got the chance because it
72:06
was just it was set out there in the
72:08
wild when it was a baby he was mauled
72:10
down by wolves it needed to be heard
72:13
right yeah i mean that’s what a bit of
72:15
these bits they they grow and they
72:17
develop and that was a controversial
72:19
idea that we’re supposed to think that
72:21
someone’s interesting just because they
72:22
survived a tragedy and his take is like
72:24
no no no no you’re not interesting right
72:27
you’re fucking boring you’re annoying
72:28
get off my get off my TV and a lot of us
72:31
have felt that way sure he just the way
72:34
he said it was easy to take and put in
72:37
you know out of context put it in quotes
72:39
and turn him into an asshole well yeah
72:42
but that’s what comedy is right it’s
72:44
it’s taking what people the the thoughts
72:46
that everybody has and vocalizing that
72:49
the end that forbidden thing in a way
72:51
that people can kind of you know come
72:54
together over right i mean i think that
72:56
was a lot a lot of what richard pryor
72:57
schemer was about like he took a lot of
72:59
the sort
73:00
comfortable race problems right and he
73:05
just kind of put them out there and both
73:07
white people and black people laughed at
73:09
it yeah right like together you know and
73:11
that that was what was good about it yes
73:12
but if you can’t if if people are afraid
73:17
to vocalize those things that they think
73:18
it’s gonna you know ruin their career is
73:20
you know that that makes it more
73:22
interesting right it’s more hype more
73:24
high stakes but if you can navigate
73:25
those waters and get to the promised
73:28
land of the punchline it’s even more
73:29
rewarding right but you just have to
73:31
explain yourself better you have to have
73:33
better points you have to have you have
73:35
to have a better structure to your
73:38
material where you while the the people
73:41
who may find your idea objectionable
73:44
they you you coax them like hold my hand
73:48
I’m gonna take you through the woods
73:50
we’re gonna be okay right follow me and
73:53
boom isn’t that funny
73:55
right right right you have to navigate
73:56
it skillfully and you have to navigate
73:58
it thoughtfully and you have to really
74:01
have a point you can’t have a half-assed
74:03
point but you can’t have a situation
74:06
where it’s fatal to be off by a little
74:08
bit I know like there was a writer that
74:11
I loved growing up a Soviet writer named
74:13
Isaac Babel Stalin ended up shooting him
74:17
but he gave a speech about I think it
74:20
was in 1936 you know to to a Soviet
74:23
writers collective and he said you know
74:25
people say that we don’t have as much
74:27
freedom as we used to but actually all
74:29
of all that the you know the the
74:31
Communist Party is done is Britta’s
74:33
prevented us from writing badly the only
74:35
thing that’s outlawed now is writing
74:36
badly right and everybody laughed but he
74:39
was actually saying something pretty
74:41
serious which is that you can’t write
74:42
well unless you can you know screw up
74:44
too you know like on the way to to being
74:48
creative in a good way you have to miss
74:50
yes you know and if missing is not
74:52
allowed and there’s high punishment for
74:55
missing you’re not going to get art yeah
74:57
you’re not gonna get revolution you’re
74:59
not gonna get all these things well and
75:01
in comedy it’s particularly important
75:03
because you have to work it out in front
75:04
of people absolutely yeah no I used to
75:06
sit at a comedy club in
75:08
hatton when I was like in college that
75:11
you know they would try out their
75:13
material like on a Wednesday right you
75:16
know early and that was always the most
75:18
interesting time for me well like
75:19
they’re trying south stuff out and a lot
75:21
of it wasn’t so good but you know it was
75:23
interesting right and you just can’t
75:26
have a situation where people feel like
75:28
you know one wrong word is gonna ruin
75:30
their career yeah you know yeah I don’t
75:32
know but there’s also people that are
75:34
wolves and they’re trying to take out
75:36
that little baby joke wandering through
75:38
the woods they they want that feeling of
75:41
being able to take someone down right
75:44
and that that’s you know that’s you’re
75:45
getting that now too which is just and
75:47
so now because that there’s like yonder
75:49
bags at the improv where I’m performing
75:51
tonight they usually on their bags you
75:53
have to put yourself on the bag when you
75:54
go in there so you can’t record things
75:56
yonder bag yes it’s a company called
75:58
yonder it’s just so strange it’s like
76:01
all the shows I did with Chappelle he
76:03
uses yonder bags and an idea is to
76:06
prevent people from from filming and
76:08
recording and you know and then
76:10
eventually putting your stuff out there
76:11
uh-huh
76:12
well you know look I’m kind of all for
76:15
that I mean I’ve seen this with
76:17
politicians on the campaign trail like
76:19
they are so tight now in ways that they
76:21
used to not be well you saw the Donald
76:23
Trump thing Donald Trump jr. where Trump
76:26
jr. what they didn’t want him to do they
76:28
wanted him to do a Q&A and he didn’t
76:30
want to do it so they booed him the
76:32
right wing people uh-huh bullying him
76:34
they’re yelling out Q&A Q&A because they
76:37
want to be able to talk oh I see it’ll
76:39
say something to him and these are
76:40
people that were like far-right
76:42
far-right people they just didn’t think
76:45
he was being right enough or he was
76:46
playing the game wrong or he wasn’t
76:47
wasn’t letting them complain to him
76:49
right right yeah yeah now that’s bad and
76:52
and and politicians are aware of that
76:56
now and they’re they’re constantly aware
76:57
that they’re on film everywhere and so
77:00
they’re you know a thousand percent less
77:02
interesting because yeah they’re there I
77:04
mean I remember covering campaign in
77:07
2004 and I was I saw Dennis Kucinich
77:10
give a speech somewhere and he was going
77:13
from I think Maine to New Hampshire and
77:16
I said can I get a ride back to New
77:17
Hampshire he’s like yeah sure so you
77:18
know it takes me on the
77:20
and he like takes his shoes off he’s
77:22
like cracking jokes and everything and
77:24
like eating udon noodles or something
77:26
political candidates would not do that
77:28
now like they’d be afraid to be off the
77:30
record with you right you know right
77:32
right and and they’re afraid to be
77:33
around people and just behave like
77:35
people you know which is not good I
77:38
don’t think it’s the weirdest time ever
77:41
to be a politician because it’s it’s
77:42
basically you’ve got this one guy who
77:45
made it through being hugely flawed
77:49
mm-hmm and just going ah
77:51
the fucking locker room talk and it was
77:53
like well yeah it is locker room talk
77:54
yes and then it works and he gets
77:56
through and he wins and so you’ve got
77:58
him who seems like he’s so greasy like
78:01
nothing sticks to him and then you have
78:04
everyone else who’s terrified of any
78:06
slight misstep yeah totally and and you
78:10
can’t replicate the way Trump does this
78:12
you know Trump Trump is he was born this
78:14
way there’s like a thing going on in his
78:16
head like he is you know pathologically
78:19
driven to behave in a certain way and
78:20
he’s not gonna be cowed by the way you
78:24
know people are but socially because he
78:26
just doesn’t think that way
78:27
no no he’s and but that’s no one else is
78:29
gonna behave like that what do you think
78:31
about him and speed what do you think I
78:34
do all that
78:34
does he take speed you mean yeah so did
78:37
you ever see his speech after Super
78:40
Tuesday yeah that’s the one we was
78:43
slurry it was that wasn’t always ramped
78:46
up he was very I just say watch that
78:50
speech you know we’re not supposed to
78:51
draw conclusions about but you know what
78:54
what my big lament pharmaceutically with
78:55
somebody but I would say just watched on
78:57
Donald Trump’s performance after the
78:59
results of the Super Tuesday roll in in
79:02
2016 let’s hear some of that firstly
79:06
chris Christie is hilarious she’s
79:09
talking about wages I’ve been poor and
79:11
everything’s poor and everything’s doing
79:13
badly but we’re gonna make it she’s been
79:14
there for so long I mean if she hasn’t
79:17
straighten it out by now she’s not gonna
79:19
straighten it out in the next four years
79:21
it’s just gonna become worse and worse
79:22
she wants to make America whole again
79:24
and I’m trying to find what is
79:26
yeah I mean it’s just I already go back
79:30
and look but yeah but he got he went on
79:32
and on also that the Christie factor was
79:34
really funny with that because he was
79:35
him he’s just sitting back there going
79:37
what am i doing what am i doing with my
79:39
life
79:40
look at his face literally you can see
79:42
his brain wander well how the fuck did
79:44
this happened I was gonna be the man
79:46
like I was the goddamn president it was
79:50
gonna happen for me I could see it
79:52
happening I saw him in uh in Ames Iowa
79:56
basically standing alone in the park
79:58
waiting for people to try to shake his
80:00
hand you know yeah it was pretty bad
80:01
like you see that and but you do you
80:03
have a theory about Trump and speed yeah
80:05
yeah yeah I think he’s on some stuff
80:07
mm-hmm I think first of all I know so
80:09
many journalists that are on speed I
80:12
know so many people that are on adderall
80:13
and it’s very effective it gives you
80:16
confidence it gives you a delusional
80:18
perspective
80:19
well you get a delusional state of
80:21
confidence mm-hmm it makes people think
80:22
they can do anything it’s basically a
80:24
low-level meth it’s very similar to
80:27
methamphetamine chemically sure and
80:29
people are in it yeah it is tell me what
80:31
it’s like because I haven’t done it yeah
80:33
I mean I’ve done speed to I mean you
80:35
know all those all those drugs are yeah
80:37
they’re like baby baby speed basically
80:39
yeah and you’re absolutely right I think
80:42
people who it’s not good for a writer
80:44
because writing is one of these things
80:47
where one of the most important things
80:49
is being able to step back and and ask
80:52
am I really my full of shit here is you
80:54
know are my jokes as funny as I think
80:55
they are like right if once that
80:57
mechanism starts to go wrong you know
81:01
you’re really lost yes
81:02
writer right because you’re just you’re
81:03
not in front of an audience you’re with
81:05
yourself in front of a computer so I
81:08
don’t think I don’t think speed is a
81:10
great drug I mean you get a lot of stuff
81:12
done so that’s that’s good but but ya
81:16
know I I think there’s a lot of people
81:18
who are on it now and also a lot of us
81:20
because kids come up through school and
81:23
they’re on it just you know and they
81:25
they get used to it so I you know I have
81:27
kids I wouldn’t dream of giving giving
81:29
them any of those drugs you know I think
81:31
it’s crazy yeah I do – did you see you
81:33
saw the I’m sure you saw the sudafed
81:34
picture – right no what was that Trump
81:37
was sitting in his office eating a
81:39
was that famous photo where he’s like I
81:41
love Hispanics where he’s eating a taco
81:43
bowl at Trump Tower and behind him
81:46
there’s an open drawer and in that open
81:47
drawer as boxes of sudafed and sudafed
81:51
sort of yeah I mean you it gives you a
81:54
low-level buzz and the I mean this is
81:59
why I used to have to go to CVS to buy
82:02
this stuff used to have to give you
82:03
drivers I guess you still do they have
82:05
to give your driver’s license because
82:06
they want to make sure you’re not
82:07
cooking meth right lying like 10 boxes
82:09
of it at a time and cooking up a batch
82:11
yeah if you’re like in a you know holler
82:13
in Kentucky and you go in and get 20 20
82:16
boxes of sudafed and pretty much people
82:18
know what you’re doing there
82:19
yeah that’s really funny did he so he
82:21
had a bunch of sudafed oh yes yeah in
82:23
his box and you know there was that one
82:26
reporter that was that guy’s name again
82:29
who had a hole he wrote a series of
82:33
tweets which he eventually wound up
82:34
taking down by the way Jamie I can’t
82:35
find those fucking tweets he wrote a
82:39
series of tweets that there was a very
82:40
specific Duane Reade pharmacy where
82:42
Trump got amphetamines for something
82:46
that was in quotes called metabolic
82:48
disorder Kurt I can Walled fun Kurt yeah
82:51
1982 Trump started taking amphetamine
82:53
derivatives abused them only supposed to
82:55
take two for 25 days stayed on it for
82:57
eight years really now is he full of
82:59
shit
83:00
so yeah Kurt I can Walt isn’t
83:03
interesting because he’s written some
83:05
really good books about finance he wrote
83:09
a book about Enron he wrote a book about
83:12
Prudential it was really really good
83:15
then when I was starting out writing
83:17
with Wall Street I was like wow these
83:18
books are really incredibly well
83:19
researched but he had some stuff in the
83:23
in 2016 where like that’s an example of
83:28
something as a reporter I see that
83:30
Michael where’s that coming from
83:31
you know and because you in journalism
83:35
you can’t really accuse somebody of
83:37
certain things unless it’s backed up to
83:39
the enth degree so right he had a couple
83:41
of things that I thought I you know
83:42
would be concerned about
83:43
he took a leap I don’t know I mean look
83:46
that’s what I’m Sam stepped outside of
83:47
the journalistic boundaries of what you
83:50
can absolutely prove and not prove
83:53
and took a leap and that’s why I think
83:54
he took down the duane reade pharmacy he
83:56
didn’t take it down oh it’s still there
83:58
as well there wasn’t okay there it is
84:00
there was another thing about a well
84:03
he’s got the milligrams per day Wow
84:05
where’s this from I don’t know it
84:08
doesn’t show it or anything but I
84:10
believe he eats drug use a copy of it
84:11
from someone or talk to the doctor drug
84:14
was diethyl propane 75 milligrams a day
84:16
prescription filled Duane Reade on 57th
84:19
Street Manhattan not that I know things
84:20
so you know get the doctor’s name to dr.
84:24
Joseph greenberg I countered with
84:27
medical records a white house admitted
84:30
to me only a short time for diet that he
84:32
took it when he was not located and
84:34
that’s fun he says I countered with
84:36
medical records they cut me off Wow yeah
84:40
I mean you know one thing I will say is
84:42
that when you’re when you’re covering
84:43
stories sometimes you hear things and
84:46
and you know they’re pretty solid but
84:48
you put you it’s not quite reportable
84:50
because the person won’t put their name
84:51
on it
84:52
or you know you’re not a hundred percent
84:55
sure that the document is a real
84:56
document maybe it’s a photocopy and that
84:59
that can be very very tough for
85:00
reporters cuz they know something’s true
85:02
but they can’t write they can’t and and
85:05
social media has eliminated a barrier
85:07
that we used to have we used to have to
85:09
go through editors and fact checkers and
85:11
now you know you’re on Twitter or you
85:13
can just kind of you know right right or
85:15
you can hint at something you know and I
85:18
think that’s that’s something you don’t
85:19
want to get into as a reporter too much
85:21
you know yeah that’s a weird use of
85:23
social media right it’s like sort of a
85:25
slippery escape from journalistic rules
85:29
yeah exactly yeah you know or you can
85:32
you can insinuate that somebody did X Y
85:35
& Z or you can you can use terms that
85:38
are a little bit sloppy like you know
85:41
again but it seems like they did admit
85:42
that he took that stuff forth ah yes so
85:44
if you have the the white house
85:46
you know spokesperson saying that they
85:47
he took it for a short time for a diet
85:49
then you find that’s a reportable story
85:50
right yeah yeah well I think when people
85:53
get into that shit it’s very hard for
85:55
them to get out of that shit mm-hmm
85:57
that’s a the the speed train and I’ve
85:59
seen many people hop on it it’s got a
86:01
lot of stops nobody seems to get off
86:04
yeah not with
86:06
keep intact right yeah no it’s uh that’s
86:08
that’s not a good old he’s so old he
86:12
doesn’t exercise he eats fast food and
86:14
he gets so much fucking energy I and I
86:16
mean people want to think he’s this
86:17
super person you know but maybe he’s on
86:20
speed maybe yeah I mean he’s just gonna
86:23
collapse turn over and collapse one not
86:25
can go a lot longer on speed than people
86:28
think maybe if you just do it the right
86:30
way but isn’t that kind of the way
86:31
history always works it’s like again not
86:34
to go back to the Russian thing but all
86:36
the various terrible leaders of Russia
86:38
like they all died of natural causes
86:40
when they were 85 right whereas you know
86:42
in a country where people get murdered
86:43
and die of industrial accidents and bad
86:45
health when they’re you know 30 all the
86:47
time right but the worst people in the
86:49
country make it to very old age and you
86:52
know and die and in their alcoholics and
86:55
maybe that’s the thing right maybe maybe
86:56
you know he has the worst diet in the
87:00
world and maybe he’s on speed and maybe
87:02
it’s also your perception of how you
87:05
interface with the world maybe because
87:07
he’s not this introspective guy that’s
87:09
really worried about how people see him
87:10
and feel about him maybe he doesn’t feel
87:12
you know whatever whether it’s
87:14
sociopathy or whatever it is he doesn’t
87:16
feel the bad feelings they don’t get in
87:19
there yeah and this he doesn’t have the
87:21
the stress impact right right and that’s
87:23
the thing about speed apparently it
87:25
because of the fact that it makes you
87:27
feel delusional and it makes you feel
87:29
like you’re the fucking man like don’t
87:31
worry about what other people think in
87:32
losers who cares right right yeah you
87:37
know that was why not by greenly why not
87:39
by greenland yeah that came out of
87:41
what’s wrong with that we bought Alaska
87:43
well we based it Alaska yeah yeah we
87:45
were supposed to give it back but we we
87:47
didn’t it seems like Greenland would be
87:48
a good place to scoop up especially as
87:50
things get warmer right yeah exactly and
87:52
the fuckin tweet that he made when he
87:54
put the Trump Tower I promise not to do
87:56
this and have a giant Trump Tower in the
87:58
middle of Greenland I was laughing my
88:00
ass off like love or hate that is
88:03
hilarious his trolling skills are
88:05
top-notch very good they’re they’re
88:07
fantastic oh he knows how to fuck with
88:09
people when he starts calling people
88:10
crazy or gives him a nickname like it’s
88:12
so good because like it sticks yes I
88:17
mean part of me wants
88:19
see a trump button race next year just
88:22
for that reason this is because the the
88:25
abuse will be on below I mean nothing
88:27
I’m encouraging that necessarily but
88:29
this is a spectacle it’s gonna be
88:31
unbelievable you can tell that he he is
88:33
salivating at the idea of by muscleman
88:35
Biden to me is like having a flashlight
88:39
with a dying battery and going for a
88:41
long hike in the woods is not going to
88:45
work out it’s not gonna make it
88:48
yeah no he’s he’s so faded he you know
88:52
he has his moments on the campaign trail
88:55
where he’ll be speaking and you know
88:57
these guys do the same speech over and
88:59
over again so they can kind of do it on
89:01
cruise control but every now and then
89:03
he’ll he’ll stop in the middle of it and
89:05
you this look of terror comes over like
89:07
where am i yeah you know what town am I
89:10
in you know like he he confused he
89:13
thought he was in Vermont when he was in
89:15
New Hampshire I’m sorry
89:16
yeah he was he got those states confused
89:19
like what’s not to love about Vermont he
89:21
was in New Hampshire you know that that
89:24
can happen obviously but it happens to
89:26
him a lot but he’s clearly old yeah you
89:30
know I mean he’s not much older than
89:31
Trump right but he needs to get on the
89:34
same pills yeah yeah actually that would
89:36
be a thing we should get a GoFundMe to
89:38
buy it imagine yeah they just filled him
89:40
up with steroids and and just jacked him
89:43
up with them feta means had it going
89:45
after Trump I really think he needs
89:49
something like that he whatever he’s
89:50
doing on the natch it’s not working
89:52
right yeah yeah he’s too tired needs a
89:54
little bit of enhancement it’s not gonna
89:56
work if he if he gets the nomination the
89:58
Democrats are fucked I just I don’t see
90:00
I don’t see him I don’t see him
90:03
withstanding the barrage that Trump was
90:05
gonna throw at him Trump’s gonna take
90:07
him out like Tyson took out Marvis
90:09
Fraser just got was a yeah it was a bomb
90:12
that was a bad fight it’s gonna be that
90:13
kind of fight right bomb on him yeah
90:16
doesn’t have a chance
90:17
he can’t stand with that guy he doesn’t
90:19
have a cheese to he’s also too impressed
90:22
with himself
90:23
yes he’s too used to people deferring
90:26
yes like he thinks like the things he
90:28
says makes sense and are cool and are
90:31
profound when they’re just
90:33
land right he’s just serving bad
90:35
meatloaf and he’s like tada and you’re
90:38
like no this is bad meatloaf yeah that’s
90:40
how he got to be vice president by being
90:42
just bland enough yes right to get
90:46
whatever constituency Obama was trying
90:48
to get but you saw that exchange when he
90:50
called Trump an existential threat
90:51
earlier this year and Trump basically he
90:55
just went off on him you know Joe Joe’s
90:57
a dummy he’s not the guy he used to be
90:59
like you know yeah that’s gonna be
91:01
everyday yep you know every minute of
91:04
every day and then other people gonna
91:05
chime in because they love it people
91:07
love piling on
91:08
oh yeah and his fans oh my god he’s the
91:11
asshole king where people never had a
91:13
representative before there’s a lot of
91:15
assholes out there like that where’s my
91:16
guy Brian finally BAM look at this area
91:19
the asshole made it to the White House
91:22
holy shit I can be an asshole now the
91:24
president’s an asshole he wants me to be
91:26
an asshole
91:29
oh yeah totally
91:32
oh that’s mean that that’s gonna wear on
91:34
a guy I mean if you’ve been doing one of
91:36
trumps rallies no chance yeah now I
91:38
can’t wear a rubber nose and fucking
91:40
I’ve covered it and what they’re like
91:42
they’re unbelievable first of all the
91:44
the the t-shirts are amazing you know it
91:48
like Trump 2020 fuck your feelings you
91:51
know what I mean like Trump is the
91:53
Punisher you know it’s like the Punisher
91:55
skull with the thing like it’s it’s it’s
91:58
it’s amazing and in the crowds it’s like
92:01
totally out of idiocracy yeah is there a
92:03
fucking Punisher skull with a Trump wig
92:06
on it yeah yeah oh my goodness I’m gonna
92:08
have to get one of those I mean he’s
92:09
like there’s oh it’s a red white and
92:25
blue American flag skull Punishers style
92:28
with a Trump Trump wig on it so I saw
92:30
that I need that sure son it wasn’t the
92:33
one red white and blue one it was the
92:34
blood it was a moment to black and I saw
92:37
that on my god I’m like an
92:39
eight-year-old kid
92:41
all right it was like a mother with her
92:43
little kids and the Trenton Trump
92:45
Punisher skull but do they
92:46
that shirt on Amazon can finally show
92:48
I’m sure being sold everywhere I mean
92:58
the the the merch is he is he’s the most
93:01
t-shirt able president history I mean
93:03
Trump 2020 grabbed him by the pussy
93:06
again boy I mean that they they like
93:10
embrace that shit it the the trolling
93:13
aspect of all of it is like the fun part
93:17
for his crowd so you are what they get
93:19
off on is how how freaked out you know
93:23
quote-unquote liberal audiences yeah by
93:25
their appearance their attitude and
93:26
everything and they lean into it you
93:28
know that I mean which is interesting
93:31
because you know that kind of like group
93:34
camaraderie thing that you don’t really
93:36
find that on and then a campaign trail
93:38
on the Democratic side it’s different I
93:39
mean it’s a different vibe entirely but
93:41
yeah it’s crazy
93:42
well it’s dumb and that’s the thing that
93:44
he’s sort of like captured is this place
93:47
where you can be dumb like it’s fun to
93:50
be dumb and say grab her by the pussy
93:52
like everybody knows that’s kind of a
93:53
dumb thing to say public of course but
93:55
you can say it there because he said it
93:57
yay you know build that wall build that
94:00
wall yeah right like it’s like it’s this
94:02
chance to like shut off any possibility
94:06
of getting over like 70 rpm like you
94:09
we’re gonna cut this bitch off at 70
94:11
there’s no high function here cut it off
94:13
at 70 and just let it rip right yeah no
94:16
totally totally and and it’s funny the
94:21
way you say that they’ll never buddy
94:23
knows it’s a dumb thing to say right
94:24
like I would talk to people at the
94:26
crowds and you know I’ll talk like a 65
94:29
year old grandmother and you say do you
94:32
agree with everything in Trump says and
94:34
like almost the last they all say well I
94:36
wish he hadn’t said this particular
94:37
thing right but they’re all they’re
94:39
chanting you know what I mean like
94:41
they’re all into it and all in the
94:43
crowds are they’re so huge like I was in
94:45
Cincinnati and I was late to one of his
94:48
events and I made the mistake that I
94:49
couldn’t Drive in because they blocked
94:51
off all the bridges if you’ve never been
94:53
there right you know I was in the
94:54
Kentucky side so I had to walk like
94:56
three miles away and like walk over a
94:58
bridge and I thought I was going
95:00
the only person there and it was like
95:02
something out of a sci-fi movie was just
95:03
like a line of Magha hats like extending
95:06
over a bridge all the way into Kentucky
95:08
like a mile down a road I mean they had
95:10
eternally thousands of people to get
95:12
into this event it was it’s incredible
95:14
and that people did see it was like 17
95:16
or 18 thousand it was the you know they
95:20
freaked out what they what arena that is
95:22
it’s the it’s the indoor one he’s the
95:25
only one that can pull those kind of
95:27
crowds here oh yeah
95:28
there’s no one no one can do that you
95:31
know Bernie and Warren have had big
95:34
crowds Bernie had a he had a 25,000 that
95:37
person crowd in Queens a couple of weeks
95:39
ago you’ll see crowds that big but
95:42
Trump’s crowds are just dating back to
95:44
2016 they’re just consistently huge
95:47
every everywhere and and again this gets
95:51
back to what I was saying before all the
95:53
reporters saw this and they all saw that
95:55
Hillary was having real trouble getting
95:57
four and five thousand people into her
95:59
events and so we all you know we were
96:01
all talking to each other like that’s
96:02
gotta be in it a thing that’s gonna you
96:04
know play a role in the election
96:06
eventually but nobody kind of brought it
96:08
up or they they explained it away well I
96:10
think they felt like if you discussed it
96:12
and brought it up that somehow or
96:14
another you got you were contributing to
96:15
Trump being Trump winning right but
96:20
that’s a that’s a fallacious way to look
96:22
at it yeah because
96:24
covering up the reality of the situation
96:26
I think created a false sense of
96:27
security for Democrats and they thought
96:30
they were gonna win by a landslide yeah
96:31
that’s what everybody was saying but it
96:33
wasn’t true I mean the overseer there
96:34
were serious red flags throughout the
96:37
campaign for Hillary and people I think
96:39
were too afraid to to bring up a lot of
96:41
this stuff because they didn’t want to
96:43
be seen it’s helping Trump but that’s
96:44
not what the business is about we’re not
96:46
supposed to be you know helping back
96:48
both factors don’t have you know
96:50
political indications we’re just
96:52
supposed to tell you what we see how do
96:53
you get journalism back on track is it
96:55
possible at this point I mean it is a
96:57
lost art is it gonna be like calligraphy
96:59
I mean I think yeah yeah exactly
97:04
Japanese calligraphy you have to pass it
97:06
down through masters yeah maybe that’s
97:09
that’s gonna be able to adjourn
97:10
Elizabeth like I mean
97:11
there’s two things that could happen one
97:13
is that like if you created something
97:16
like neither side news right now right
97:18
and just like a that’s a great name
97:20
yeah like a network where it was a bunch
97:22
of people who just kind of did the job
97:24
without the editorializing I think it
97:27
would have it would probably have a lot
97:29
of followers right away it would make
97:31
money and nobody has clued into that yet
97:33
like if if some canny entrepreneur were
97:35
to do that and that were to bring back
97:37
the business that or you know journalism
97:39
has always been kind of quasi subsidized
97:41
in this country you know going back to
97:43
the Pony Express newspapers were carried
97:45
free across to the west right the US
97:47
Postal Service said that the original
97:49
19th the Communications Act in 1934 the
97:53
idea was you know we you could lease the
97:55
public airwaves but you had to do
97:56
something in the public interest so you
97:59
you could make money doing sports and
98:01
entertainment but you could take a loss
98:03
on news and so it was kind of quasi
98:06
subsidized in that way but that doesn’t
98:08
exist anymore there’s no subsidy really
98:09
for news anymore I’m not a story sure I
98:11
agree with that
98:12
that being the way to go but there has
98:15
to be something because right now the
98:16
financial pressure to be bad is just too
98:19
it’s too great you know like there’s no
98:21
if there’s no way to I started going on
98:24
this but I came when I came from the
98:25
business when the money started getting
98:28
tighter the first thing they got rid of
98:30
were the long-form investigative
98:31
reporters like you couldn’t just hire
98:34
somebody to work on a story for three
98:35
months anymore because he needed them to
98:37
do content all the time then they got
98:39
rid of the fact checkers you know which
98:41
had another serious problem you know and
98:43
and so now the money’s so tight that he
98:46
just had these people doing clickbait
98:48
all the time and they’re not doing real
98:50
reporting and so they they have to fix
98:52
the money problem I don’t know how they
98:53
would do that how much has it changed
98:54
recently because like when that piece of
98:57
the stuff that you wrote about the
98:59
banking crisis was my favorite coverage
99:01
of it and the the most relatable and
99:03
understandable and the way you spelled
99:05
everything out could you do that today
99:08
yeah but I think it would be harder
99:11
because that’s not that long it’s it
99:13
really isn’t it’s only you know that was
99:15
I really stopped doing that and like
99:17
2014 or so five years out but the the
99:22
big differences social media has had a
99:24
huge impact on a ten
99:25
and span so you know I was writing like
99:28
7,000 word articles about credit default
99:32
swaps and stuff like that I was trying
99:33
really hard to make it interesting for
99:35
people you know you use jokes and yeah
99:37
humor and stuff like that but now people
99:39
would not have the energy to really
99:42
fight through that you’d have to make it
99:43
shorter
99:45
even TV you know they people you don’t
99:48
see that kind of reporting that in-depth
99:50
you know kind of process reporting where
99:53
you’re teaching people something because
99:56
people just tune out right away that
99:57
they need just a quick hit a headline
100:00
and a couple of facts so yeah there’s a
100:03
big problem with audience right which
100:05
we’ve trained audiences to consume the
100:07
news differently and all they really
100:09
want to get is a take now you know it’s
100:11
like the everything’s like an ESPN hot
100:13
take writings you know so that’s easy
100:16
the counter to that though is this what
100:19
we’re doing right now like these are
100:21
always these long-ass conversations
100:23
they’re hours and hours long and there’s
100:25
a bunch of them out there now it’s not
100:27
like mine is an isolated one and there’s
100:29
so many podcast that cover and some of
100:31
them cover them like in a cereal form
100:33
like the drop out was that there was a
100:36
they called it yes it was the drop out
100:39
was the one about that woman who created
100:41
that fake blood company yes right you
100:44
know Susan was her name Elizabeth that’s
100:55
right Sarah knows yeah the the
100:57
completely fraudulent company that was
100:59
an amazing podcast absolutely that if I
101:03
read it I probably you’re right I
101:04
probably would have liked boring right I
101:07
probably Bandhan it earlier but
101:08
listening to it in podcast form
101:10
listening to actual conversations from
101:13
these people listening to people’s
101:15
interpretations of these confrontations
101:16
listening to people that were there at
101:18
the time telling you know telling
101:21
stories about when they knew things were
101:22
weird and when they started noticing the
101:25
there’s like tests that were incorrect
101:29
that they were covering up that kind of
101:30
shit like you can do that now with
101:33
something like this and I think that one
101:34
of the good things about podcasts too is
101:37
you don’t need anybody
101:39
to tell you that you could you could
101:41
publish this yeah no absolutely I think
101:44
you’re you’re right and I think formats
101:48
like this reveal that the news companies
101:51
are wrong about about some things about
101:54
audiences like they they think that
101:56
people can’t handle an in-depth
101:57
discussion about things they think that
101:59
audiences only want to watch 30 seconds
102:01
of something they don’t they’re
102:02
interested that they do have curiosity
102:05
about things it’s just it’s very
102:08
difficult to convince people in the news
102:10
business especially to take chances on
102:13
that kind of content you know they’ll do
102:15
it for a podcast I’ll do it for a
102:17
documentary but but for for the news
102:21
they just they’re making things shorter
102:23
and shorter and shorter you know I was
102:24
really lucky to have an editor who you
102:26
know understood the idea that we have to
102:29
get into this and in depth or also it’s
102:31
going to be meaningless the program
102:32
right that’s pretty rare you know for
102:35
the most part they you don’t see them
102:38
taking that kind of bet anymore but
102:40
maybe podcasts will help people Punk
102:41
puncture that but the flip side of that
102:43
is that they’re not they’re not
102:45
investing and stuff like like
102:48
International News in the way they used
102:49
to when I came up in the business every
102:52
Bureau every big Network had bureaus in
102:56
every major city around the world you
102:58
know Rome Berlin Moscow whatever it is
103:00
right and they had newsrooms full of
103:01
people who are you know out there
103:03
gathering news now there’s none of that
103:05
right because they figured out they can
103:07
make the money just as easily by having
103:09
somebody sit in an office and in
103:11
Washington or New York and just you know
103:14
link to something and have a take on
103:16
something you know so the I think the
103:19
news is getting worse podcasts are
103:21
getting more interesting maybe maybe
103:23
there’s a happy medium they can find in
103:24
between well documentaries as well
103:26
documentaries are commercially viable if
103:28
it’s a great subject like like your good
103:31
examples that wild wild country one or
103:33
you know I didn’t even know that that
103:35
cult existed I had no idea what what
103:38
happened up there and then so this
103:40
documentary sheds light on it does it
103:42
over like I think it was like six
103:44
episodes or something that’d be fucking
103:46
amazing and it made a shit ton of money
103:48
yet though we’re making a murderer was
103:49
another one
103:50
is really good like they you take
103:52
because that’s something that happens
103:53
all over the place you have these
103:54
Criminal Justice cases and they’re you
103:56
know terrible and justice has happened
103:58
and you know if you really tell the
104:02
whole story and make characters out of
104:04
people and invest the time and yeah tell
104:07
it tell it well people still like really
104:08
good storytelling but but I think within
104:13
the news business they just they have
104:15
this belief they’re hard-headed believe
104:16
that people can’t handle difficult
104:19
material and I don’t know why that is
104:21
you know yeah I don’t know why it is
104:23
either it’s I mean I think there’s a
104:26
large number of people that aren’t
104:28
satisfied intellectually by a lot of the
104:30
stuff they’re being spoon-fed and they
104:33
think that because the the vast majority
104:36
of things that are commercially viable
104:38
are short attention span things I think
104:41
it’s like this real sloppy way of
104:42
thinking non risk-taking way of thinking
104:45
they’re like well this is how people
104:46
consume things you got to give them like
104:49
music video style editing or they just
104:51
tune out but there has always been a
104:53
thirst for actual long-form
104:56
conversations yeah you don’t an actual
104:59
real in-depth exploration of something
105:01
in a very digestible way like one of the
105:03
good things about doing your podcast for
105:05
this podcast any podcast really is that
105:07
you could listen to it while you’re
105:08
commuting you listen to it and it’ll
105:10
actually give you something that
105:12
occupies your mind and interest you
105:14
during what would normally be dead time
105:16
right yeah and and you’re absolutely
105:19
right about the the thirst for something
105:22
else now and again I think when people
105:25
turn on most news products they’re
105:29
getting this predictable set of things
105:32
and that doesn’t quench that thirst for
105:34
them they’re not they’re not being
105:35
challenged in any way they’re not seeing
105:36
different sides of a topic you know
105:39
you’re not approaching covering a
105:42
subject honestly by genuinely you know