Some people spend years learning theology and studying the Bible, but experience little or no transformation in their lives. What have we gotten wrong? Dr. Jim Wilder is a neurotheologian—that means he studies theology and brain science—who says we’ve mistakingly made the gospel about knowledge when it’s actually about attachment. You don’t want to miss what he has to say about the importance of food, joy, and gratitude in spiritual formation. Also this week, how does having power—or not having it—influence our beliefs? David French says America is experiencing a religious fundamentalist revival, but it’s not Christian. And is the Holy Post guilty of being an echo chamber?
Religious Power vs. Religious Liberty with David French
There are few public thinkers the Holy Post cites more often than David French, and he’s finally here in person! (Well, in person via Zoom.) French is the Senior Editor of The Dispatch, a columnist for Time, and a pro-life conservative attorney. Although many Christians are worried about the erosion of religious liberty, French says, “We have never enjoyed more religious liberty than we do right now.”
The problem is that Christians are losing cultural power, and our attempts to retain it are often doing more harm than good. He helps us understand recent Supreme Court rulings about religious liberty and LGBT rights, why conservatives who are against face masks aren’t really pro-life, and how both the Left and Right get racism wrong. French explains why he will not vote for Trump, and why evangelicals have gone from holding their noses to enthusiastic support of a president who lacks both character and competency. Plus, what is “David Frenchism” and should we be worried about it?
Episode 418: The Pandemic, Power, & the Apocalypse
Back in 2016, Donald Trump gave a campaign speech promising that if elected “Christianity will have power.” The Holy Post crew discusses why this message has so much appeal to some Christians today, the way fear has come to mark our faith, and what we can do to counteract the trend. After the podcast is interrupted by a tornado, Christian asks if we’re seeing signs of the apocalypse. Skye says, “No” and shares his idea for a sermon titled “How Stupid Do We Think God Is?” Plus, listener mail.
15:25
winds
15:26
and uh so there were tornado warnings it
15:29
doesn’t appear that any actual tornadoes
15:31
did any damage anywhere at least not
15:34
that i’ve heard chicago they touched
15:35
down
15:36
in like the river north area rogers park
15:40
park really oh my goodness
15:43
wow that’s densely populated um
15:46
we lost like um half a tree here
15:50
and that was all but uh over in our
15:53
power just barely went out but came back
15:55
on my mom a few
15:56
uh two suburbs over in wheaton lost
15:59
power for
16:00
like 20 hours and uh whole streets
16:03
in wheaton were impassable because of
16:05
downed trees
16:07
so it was some power lines i saw
16:10
and yeah i was driving by on naperville
16:13
road and like
16:14
fences that lined the street were kind
16:16
of blown over
16:18
wow we lost one big tree branch but
16:21
other than that we were safe so i was
16:23
very thankful
16:24
i’m sure there’s not a lot of people
16:25
that can say that any trees down in your
16:27
yard sky
16:29
no actually this area wasn’t too bad
16:31
just little branches here and there but
16:32
you know the fact that it’s 20 20 i’m
16:35
just happy we didn’t have like blood
16:37
blooded in the streets or yeah you know
16:39
comets
16:40
fall in on us or something a bug of
16:42
frogs
16:43
right uh jason how’s uh aurora
16:46
it actually didn’t hit here very hard at
16:49
all i was really
16:50
i thought we’d get a hit a lot harder
16:51
but it was you know a couple tree
16:52
branches down
16:53
things like that didn’t ever lose power
16:55
at all the whole steeple on college
16:58
church
16:58
is gone yeah the old one or the new one
17:01
not the new one
17:02
not the the little one on the back part
17:04
of the church or the
17:06
okay yeah yeah they lost a steeple
17:09
that seems like it could be god’s
17:12
judgment i mean that’s clearly
17:13
a storm blows the steeple off your
17:15
church
17:16
but at what point let me just stop you
17:19
and just ask
17:20
because i know our listeners are
17:21
thinking that at what point
17:24
do you look at 2020 and then begin to
17:27
wonder
17:29
is this something apocalyptic like
17:32
i mean it just keeps coming the hits
17:35
just keep coming and
17:37
there is good biblical precedent for god
17:40
using the you know nature and animals to
17:44
like you know pour out his wrath and
17:46
judgment
17:48
uh-huh skye no just no
17:52
so never at any point truthfully i want
17:55
to know for sure
17:56
never at any point do you never ever
17:59
think i do
18:00
wonder what god is doing here no i never
18:03
do
18:03
really i don’t phil i really don’t like
18:07
when it comes to storms and stuff like
18:08
that no i
18:09
don’t yeah but i know not just one storm
18:12
but cumulatively
18:14
would you okay but christian christian
18:16
it’s a global it’s a global pandemic
18:19
it was a local storm in iowa and
18:21
illinois
18:22
it’s like how do you can’t it doesn’t
18:24
make sense i am
18:26
not talking about that i am not just
18:28
talking about a global pandemic and one
18:30
storm if you took
18:31
all of the events of 2020
18:34
and you lump them together you have to
18:36
admit
18:37
it it’s the tragic the tragic death of
18:41
kobe bryant
18:42
the what else i mean the pandemic
18:45
the olympics got canceled that was
18:47
george george floyd yeah i mean
18:49
and if you just take out the pandemic
18:51
this would be a pretty normal year
18:53
yeah we have stuff like this fairly
18:55
often it’s the pandemic
18:57
we also had the flying locusts
19:01
that we’re taking all over the sandstorm
19:04
like i mean it’s just that happens all
19:06
the time we just don’t report it
19:08
because it’s something things are worse
19:10
this year
19:11
than normal because of the pandemic yes
19:14
yes yes because of the pandemic there
19:17
was a pandemic just like this
19:19
a hundred years ago and that wasn’t
19:22
the end of the world clearly but okay
19:25
just
19:25
i want to go back to this question phil
19:27
you have to answer it okay
19:29
ever in your mind do you never think
19:31
this
19:32
gee i wonder what god is doing maybe
19:34
there is something we should learn
19:36
maybe something is going to happen do
19:38
you never those thoughts
19:39
there is always something we should
19:41
learn i don’t think god is pushing
19:44
around weather patterns
19:45
or viruses to send secret messages to us
19:50
because he’s already given us his word
19:53
which tells us what we need to know
19:57
that’s true and i don’t think he knocked
20:00
kobe bryant’s helicopter out of the air
20:02
and i don’t think he inspired kanye west
20:04
to run for president
20:06
and i don’t think i mean if you look at
20:09
the 20th century there was
20:10
the 20th century was so much worse than
20:14
what we have so far in the 21st century
20:17
in terms of chaos and death and violence
20:20
and pestilence so it’s
20:23
it’s just hard to say but you know we
20:25
didn’t experience most of it firsthand
20:27
we missed most of it we weren’t born
20:29
so you know everyone thinks that the
20:31
experiences of their lifetime
20:33
are the most impactful experiences that
20:36
have ever happened
20:37
because they’re the most impactful
20:39
experiences that have ever happened to
20:40
me
20:41
which is you know a little bit of
20:43
potentially
20:44
um disney princess
20:47
because it’s happening to me it has
20:51
great biblical meaning um but yeah
20:55
people have always pointed to current
20:56
events
20:56
and said this is it god’s judging or
20:59
doing or whatever
21:00
you know and it’s like it’s like
21:03
predicting the second coming the only
21:05
thing
21:05
we know for absolutely sure is that
21:08
everyone
21:09
who has ever predicted a date for the
21:12
second coming
21:13
has been wrong that’s true
21:16
except there is stuff that we do know we
21:19
do know that he will come in the clouds
21:21
and every eye will see him
21:23
what does that have to do that has
21:24
nothing to do with that has nothing to
21:26
do with predicting your knowledge
21:28
right okay that’s true but it does mean
21:31
that we will be able to see him when he
21:33
comes
21:34
and they’re right in other words it’s he
21:36
did when and he even says this he said
21:38
when someone says here there’s the you
21:39
know don’t believe it because it’s not
21:40
going to be a subtle thing
21:42
he’s not going to come back as the
21:43
invisible man right
21:45
and you have to look for the the uh the
21:47
hand print on the shower glass door
21:50
like in the movie it’s not going to be
21:51
like that but do you not think that
21:53
there’s going to be
21:54
anything that leads up to his coming at
21:57
all there’s like
21:58
no warning signs it’s just going to be
21:59
like bam he’s there
22:01
i think all of the traffic signals start
22:04
to
22:04
flash purple come on seriously i’m
22:08
asking a serious question
22:10
i don’t know firing minds i don’t know i
22:13
um when i was 19 years old working for
22:18
my first video production job and i got
22:20
sent out to
22:21
salt lake city utah to train on my first
22:24
computer graphics
22:26
system i had a a classmate who was
a few years older he was like 25.
he had already been married and divorced
and we were talking
and i wanted to find out why and he said
that he read the book the late great
planet earth by hal
lindsey which made everybody go nutty
for end times prophecy
and he was so convinced that the world
was about to end
that he thought i don’t want it to end
before i get married
so he rushed into a marriage so that he
could have the experience of being
married
before the world ended and it was a huge
mistake
23:05
and he ended up at 25 divorced and that
23:08
that had
23:08
that that imprinted on me i thought
23:11
people
23:12
go crazy and make terrible decisions
23:16
when they focus too much on trying to
23:18
predict the end times
23:20
so i’m not going to do that so ever
23:23
since then
23:24
i’ve just thought okay it is going to
23:25
happen and we do not know when
23:29
and that is all we’ve been told we
23:31
absolutely need to know
23:33
the funny thing is part of the reason
23:35
jesus and the apostles later talk about
23:38
the end and the coming judgment and all
23:40
that sort of stuff
23:41
is so that we would prepare and we would
23:44
take urgent action but the urgent
23:46
action they call us to take is action
23:49
toward
23:50
character and holiness and virtue it’s
23:53
be loving and kind and patient and
23:55
forgiving and
23:56
you know all the fruit of the spirits so
23:58
the irony is that this guy you’re
mentioning goes out and
essentially runs into a sexual
relationship because he doesn’t want to
miss out on the opportunity
which is the total opposite of what he’s
supposed to do he’s supposed to be more
self-controlled more patient
more kind and it’s just funny to me that
we
we apply this eschatological stuff to
24:18
our lives and then can
24:19
take away the polar opposite biblical
24:22
message of the
24:23
one that jesus and his apostles gave us
24:25
yeah probably
24:26
trying to gain the system it seems like
24:28
to to our own advantage
24:30
yes yeah and i i tend to strongly
24:35
react against going to extremes
24:38
i like to moderate i like to stay in the
24:41
middle i
24:42
yeah to to a fault to a fault that i you
24:44
know there are times where i should be
24:46
more
24:47
up in arms or and i’m not because i
24:50
my my tendency is to try to moderate
24:53
my response at all times so when i
24:56
see theology that uh tends to
produce extremes of behavior in people
i kind of have a natural innate pushback
you know to that sort of wow if that if
believing if interpreting that verse
that way
makes you behave like that ah i’m i’m
gonna
i’m gonna back away from that
25:21
interesting
25:22
maybe good may be bad i don’t know i
25:23
just don’t like freaking out
25:26
well i appreciate y’all’s perspective on
25:28
that okay i’m sure our listeners do too
25:30
so thank you for going so
25:31
i have a big branch down in my yard i am
25:34
not going to go out
25:35
and stand next to it and look for jesus
25:38
in the sky
25:39
i don’t think they’re connected and i’m
25:41
not saying you think that christian i’m
25:42
just saying
25:43
that no i’m just saying sometimes i do
25:47
wonder like i just i mean i desperately
25:50
want
25:50
christ to come back and his kingdom to
25:52
be established on earth and things to be
25:54
all right the world and so i think
25:58
part of me hopes like okay maybe it is
26:01
so bad right now and that’s because
26:02
something exciting is gonna happen
26:05
or you don’t think this is exciting
26:07
enough
26:08
this is an extremely exciting good i
26:10
mean exciting good
26:11
good exciting i think most of the
26:13
warnings in in scripture
26:16
are about not being ready in the sense
26:19
that
26:19
jesus comes back and you’re not walking
26:22
in the way of jesus
26:23
right so the solution
26:26
is not to try to run you know figure out
26:28
which which russian
26:30
nation your european union is going to
26:33
what and the where and the how
26:35
it’s just walk in the way of jesus and
26:37
regardless of when it happens
26:39
he’s gonna you’re gonna be fine you’re
26:41
gonna be right
26:42
you’re gonna be fine and if someone says
26:44
hey would you like the mark of the beast
26:47
say no probably not i’ll pass
26:53
no i don’t think so i don’t think i want
26:55
that uh that doesn’t mean it’s upc
26:57
codes it doesn’t mean it’s a vaccine it
27:00
doesn’t mean it’s a microchip
27:02
that like the ones we put in our dogs so
27:04
that we don’t lose them one day that’s
27:05
not the mark of the beast
27:08
you’re not gonna i think was it was it
27:10
um juan hernandez who said this last
27:12
week
27:13
or two weeks ago at okoboji said because
27:15
people were asking about the mark of the
27:16
beast he was teaching on revelation and
27:18
he said
27:19
you you will not accidentally get the
27:22
mark of the beast
27:23
if there is a literal mark of the beast
27:26
it won’t be something that you realize
27:28
oh crap i got i thought i was just
27:31
getting
27:31
i thought i just was downloaded the
27:34
target app
27:35
and now i’ve got the mark of the beast
27:37
that’s like if there is a literal mark
27:39
of the beast
27:40
it’s not going to sneak up on you you
27:43
will have to opt into it
27:44
you know related to that phil i have
27:46
been debating putting together a sermon
27:49
and it’s it’s working title is how
27:52
stupid do we
27:52
think god is
27:56
isn’t that jesus that’s your next book
27:58
right there
27:59
it could be how stupid do we think god
28:01
is because for to your point
28:03
if the mark of the beast is something
28:04
that a faithful christian might
28:06
accidentally stumble into
28:08
and acquire in some way you think god is
28:11
so stupid
28:12
as to say oh sorry you’re out now
28:14
because you accidentally downloaded that
28:16
app and you accidentally got that
28:17
vaccination when you were six months old
28:20
you forced not that it’s ridiculous you
28:22
thought you were signing up for your gas
28:24
station’s
28:24
frequent buyer program but you got
28:28
the mark of the beast so and i think
28:31
this relates to a whole bunch of
28:32
different areas of our of our
28:33
public christian lives and different
28:35
things that go on but we i really think
28:37
a lot of christians genuinely believe
28:38
god is truly stupid
28:40
and that’s why they’re so fearful that
28:42
they don’t make any missteps
28:44
but or don’t think that that’s yes i
28:46
totally do
28:48
i absolutely do no he just he just wants
28:51
us
28:52
the alternative view sky jatani dear
28:56
friend of mine
28:57
is is that he expects us to be smart
29:00
enough not to make dumb mistakes
29:04
i don’t know about that okay i think
29:06
you’re both wrong
29:07
i think i think that people don’t think
29:10
god is stupid
29:12
i think people forget how powerful he is
29:16
and that he’s not out there to trick us
29:18
or to lay a trap for us
29:21
well powerful people can trick you i i
29:23
think christian
29:25
i’d spend it a little differently it
29:26
isn’t that that people think god isn’t
29:29
powerful i think that people view god
29:31
as an impersonal force more than
29:34
a person and so they they think of i
29:37
mean dallas willard used this analogy he
29:39
talked about
29:40
a vision of god as just being like the
29:42
scanner at the grocery store
29:44
and as long as you have the right code
29:46
as long as you have the right thing the
29:47
scanner picks up
29:48
right thing if you have the wrong scan
29:49
the wrong code you get the wrong thing
29:51
so for example
29:52
um i mean this opens up a can of worms
29:55
but
29:56
there are certain christians who want
29:58
america to have a certain political
29:59
foreign policy toward the nation state
30:01
of israel
30:02
and they think as long as america
30:03
supports the state of israel god will
30:05
bless america
30:06
and and they then discredit all the
30:09
nuances of
30:10
god’s character and does he actually
30:12
care about the marginalized and what
30:13
about justice and what about refugees
30:15
doesn’t matter as long as america
30:16
supports israel we’re good it’s like no
30:19
it’s a much much more complicated
30:21
issue than that hey we’ve got the right
30:24
code
30:24
america’s got the right law toward
30:26
israel before god’s on our side that’s
30:27
what i mean by they think god is stupid
30:29
like he doesn’t have
30:30
a personal engagement and nuanced
30:32
understanding of a very complicated
30:34
things
30:34
and we can get by by tricking him more
30:36
or less with just
30:38
going through the right motion saying
30:39
the right prayers giving the right
30:41
amount of money
30:42
scanning the right law into our books
30:44
whatever that’s what i mean by that we
30:45
pretend that god is just this impersonal
30:48
force that we can manipulate
30:50
because he’s stupid but i think that is
30:52
a subconscious
30:53
thing i don’t think people consciously
30:56
think god is stupid
30:57
of course not of course not but we
30:58
behave like he is
31:00
yes right what are those tests
31:04
where you where you use a number two
31:05
pencil and you fill in the little
31:06
circles and the
31:07
antron yes yes we we think following
31:11
jesus is the equivalent
31:12
of of acing a scantron test
31:16
where i had all the right dots and all
31:18
the right circles and that’s the only
31:20
thing that god will look at is what
31:21
comes out of the scantron
31:23
machine right that’s a good analogy
31:25
thank you you can use that in your
31:27
sermon but you have to you have to
31:28
credit me at the end of the sermon
31:30
that would be a good dude i would be
31:32
happy to thank you thank you very much
31:34
hey we were going to talk about
31:35
something else
31:36
in fact we were talking about something
31:38
else we don’t have a ton of time now so
31:41
i think we can still briefly mention it
31:43
because there wasn’t a whole lot to say
31:45
but but it is a really good article in
31:47
the new york times
31:48
uh under the headline christianity will
31:51
have power you can look it up it was
31:52
written by elizabeth
31:54
diaz who covers religion for the new
31:56
york times um and she went to sioux
31:58
center iowa
31:59
to interview people who had supported
32:01
donald trump in 2016
32:02
and she pointed out something
32:03
interesting which i didn’t even know was
32:05
that one of the most famous things he
32:07
ever said during the primary he said
32:09
in sioux center iowa at dort university
32:13
and it’s the thing that everyone focused
32:15
on which is that is where he said and
32:17
this is a very conservative dutch
32:18
reformed community with a
32:20
dutch reformed school and this is where
32:24
he said he could stand in the middle of
32:25
fifth avenue and shoot somebody and he
32:27
wouldn’t lose
32:28
any voters and every journalist in the
32:30
world
32:31
focused on that like what did he just
32:34
say
32:35
it’s even hard to figure out exactly
32:36
what that means was he saying his
32:38
followers just aren’t very moral i mean
32:42
his followers are so passionate the
32:44
loyal
32:45
and loyal he could kill somebody and
32:48
they would still follow him
32:49
wait then i i would argue he was a
32:52
hundred percent correct
32:54
well that’s a whole different story but
32:56
what um
32:57
miss diaz focuses in on is is that
32:59
something
33:00
else he said in that speech may have
33:02
been more important than that
33:04
and uh so she quoted at length and and
33:06
he said to these
33:08
conservative christians and in the
33:10
northwest corner of iowa very near the
33:12
bible conference that we go to every
33:13
year
33:14
i will tell you christianity is under
33:16
tremendous siege whether we want to talk
33:18
about it
33:18
or we don’t want to talk about it he
33:21
said christians make up the overwhelming
33:22
majority of the country and then he
slowly then he slowed slightly to stress
this part
and yet we don’t exert the power that we
should have
33:32
it’s interesting that he said we because
33:34
he is
33:35
i don’t know that he ever stood up
33:36
before this point and said i am totally
33:38
a follower of jesus
33:40
uh but now he’s part of the we if he
were elected president he promised that
would change
and then he said christianity will have
power
if i’m there you’re going to have plenty
of power
you don’t need anybody else you’re going
to have somebody representing you
very very well remember that and
that that’s what she focuses in on this
article is
is his statement if you elect me
christianity
will have power and that’s what you know
34:09
we’ve been talking with with david
34:10
french about what’s the difference
34:11
between religious power and religious
34:13
liberty
34:13
that’s kind of what we’ve been hinting
34:15
at a long time it’s it’s interesting
34:16
because then
34:17
um what what mrs diaz misty is i don’t
34:20
know what her first name is don’t
34:22
remember
34:23
she travels around sioux center iowa and
34:26
orange city which is
34:27
right next door and interviews people
34:30
about so how do you think he’s done and
34:32
are you still going to vote for him this
34:33
year and you know what’s your response
34:35
to all the the hoop law
34:37
and the overwhelming response is he’s
34:40
done what he said he would do
34:41
he’s done what he said he would do you
34:42
know we have more we have more power now
34:45
we’re not losing as much
34:47
so it’s a really interesting article
34:50
um just to hear people it’s not
34:53
one-sided it doesn’t have an obvious you
34:55
know
34:55
liberal bias they’re not trying to make
34:56
these people look stupid they’re just
34:58
asking him the questions
34:59
you know how do you feel he’s done and
35:02
you know what what’s your sense of the
35:03
world
35:04
and it’s fascinating so i just i just
35:06
wanted to take a couple minutes
35:08
you know for skye and christian to say
35:09
okay how did you what’s your reaction
35:11
when you read that what did it make you
35:14
think i know christian mentioned that it
35:16
made you generally sad
35:17
uh but let’s just get a little bit of
35:19
response to what we saw from
35:21
such a detailed look at how
35:24
you know middle american christians are
35:26
feeling
35:27
well like i said when we started this i
35:29
felt like it rang super true
35:33
am i signed out no here you’re there
35:36
yeah you’re
35:38
saying i got a message saying you’ve
35:39
been signed out
35:41
oh not of this maybe something else
35:43
maybe maybe your mark of the beast app
35:46
so you know so that’s good yeah that’s
35:48
very good anyway
35:50
so i um you know it rang very true
35:52
because it sounds like a lot of people
35:54
that i know
35:55
in my area of the country things i’ve
35:57
heard them say forever
35:59
it did make me very sad uh and i’m not
36:02
sure
36:03
what we do about that i think that was
36:05
what was so hard and
36:06
what the article that we talked about
36:07
earlier you know we can look at this
36:10
and we can acknowledge that is probably
36:12
true but how do we
36:14
change it
36:17
yeah skye what did you make of the how
36:20
did you respond
36:21
i i’m kind of um i felt
36:24
bad because i don’t necessarily i don’t
36:27
blame these people
36:28
i think when you’ve when you see the
36:32
world
36:32
the way they have been formed to see it
36:35
i can understand why you don’t believe
36:37
you have any alternative
36:39
if you believe the world is in that
36:41
desperate a place if the country’s in
36:43
that desperate place
36:44
and the only option available to you
36:48
is this very flawed
36:51
broken immoral leader who nonetheless
36:54
says he will give you
36:55
and your religious beliefs influence and
36:58
power
36:59
i can see why people are in a corner and
37:02
want to do that i don’t necessarily
37:04
blame them when i i have less sympathy
37:07
however
37:08
for the church leaders and those with
37:11
greater influence who are here in this
37:12
culture to represent jesus who have
37:15
formed in them this view of their faith
37:18
and that’s where i think the blame lies
37:20
not with the person on the street
37:22
who doesn’t believe they have any
37:25
alternative
37:26
so uh i i i it’s sad it’s very sad
37:30
because i think it says something about
37:31
the state of the american church more
37:32
than it says about the state of american
37:34
politics
37:35
and there’s a ton of talk uh quotes from
37:38
different people
37:40
like this um in their area
37:43
area because they have their own
37:44
christian school they send their kids to
37:47
we feel like we are in a little area
37:49
where we are still protected
37:51
you know where we’re we’re safe we we’re
37:53
afraid of losing that
37:55
um and then you know if if trump is
37:58
re-elected then
37:59
i feel like we are safe for four more
38:01
years
38:02
so there’s this theme of safety you know
38:05
being
38:06
being at risk and it’s not not
38:08
necessarily you know that people are
38:10
going to come and shoot you
38:11
but that our way of life is going to
38:13
disappear
38:14
that we have values and they’re going to
38:16
disappear that’s what they’ve
38:17
capitalized on i mean that’s what the
38:20
trump campaign the republicans have
38:22
capitalized on and they have going back
38:23
to the 80s and i’m sure before
38:26
whereas we’re going to show you all the
38:27
things you should be really afraid of
38:29
and you should be really really afraid
38:31
of these things
38:32
we’re going to be the ones that protect
38:33
you from happening whether they’re
38:34
abortion
38:35
or you know crime or you know
38:39
be that what it may we the republicans
38:42
are going to keep your life the way it
38:44
is
38:44
protected safe and happy and what really
38:47
breaks my heart is that what that
38:48
reveals in us in our heart
38:50
is that we believe that our salvation
38:52
our happiness our peace
38:54
is in installing a correct political
38:57
leader and system
39:04
right which is essentially a false
39:06
gospel
39:07
and it’s a false god actually right yeah
39:10
so and that and that i wish that some of
39:12
these folks
39:13
i wish there was more interaction across
39:16
the country among christians in
39:18
different environments
39:19
like if you were to take a bunch of
39:20
christians in northwest iowa like the
39:22
ones that were interviewed in this
39:23
article
39:23
and put them in a room with a bunch of
39:25
christians from manhattan
39:28
right who live in like this liberal
39:30
bastion of democratic power
39:33
yeah and they could interact with each
39:34
other and realize we share the same
39:36
faith
39:36
we have the same hope in christ we’re in
39:39
very different environments and yet look
39:40
here are christians
39:41
thriving in a post-christian liberal
39:45
paradise absolutely you know the liberal
39:48
uh kind of nirvana and yet their faith
39:51
is strong and they’re doing great like
39:53
i wish there was a vision for we can no
39:55
matter what happens
39:56
politically we as the people of christ
39:59
can thrive
40:00
yeah and we don’t have to be driven by
40:03
fear
40:03
in our public engagement yeah the last
40:07
person they interview in the article is
40:09
is the um
40:10
latino pastor of a latino congregation
40:13
in
40:13
i think or in orange city or sioux
40:16
center
40:16
who you know has a lot of white
40:19
evangelical friends
40:20
and is an evangelical and so shares
40:24
many of their social concerns but when
40:26
they come to politics he says
40:28
yeah they they don’t bring that up
40:30
around me and i don’t bring it up around
40:32
them
40:32
you know i think they know that
40:36
um the things trump says and does aren’t
40:39
necessarily
40:40
great for the people in my congregation
40:43
and they don’t want me to feel awkward
40:46
and i don’t want to make them feel
40:48
awkward
40:48
you know so and that’s kind of part of
40:51
of
40:52
i mean it’s kind of exactly what you’re
40:53
saying is that doesn’t
40:55
here’s a group right in the community
40:57
that could say our perspective is a
40:59
little different
41:00
let’s talk about it but instead the
41:02
choice is
41:03
our perspective is a little different
41:05
let’s not bring it up because we want to
41:07
maintain
41:08
civility you know and we don’t know
41:11
what’ll happen if we actually disagree
41:14
with each other
41:15
we haven’t been taught how to
41:17
respectfully
41:19
have a difference of opinion and have a
41:21
civil conversation about it
41:23
and not let it fracture us into our
41:25
silos right
41:27
that’s what’s project yeah and our and
41:29
our leaders aren’t helping
41:30
because they’re not they’re not doing it
41:32
either you know because they’re
41:34
too afraid that i’m gonna i’m gonna lose
41:37
support of the people that are following
41:38
me it’s gonna threaten my ministry
41:40
so i’m just gonna i’m just not gonna
41:43
speak up
41:44
and and that’s why i put the blame there
41:46
rather than with
41:47
the people in the pew or in the voting
41:49
booth it’s our
41:50
christian leaders have failed to
41:52
disciple the american church
41:53
in this critical area of faith okay skye
41:56
so what do we do
41:57
how do we turn that around what what
42:01
vision
42:01
can you paint for us of something that
42:04
might begin
42:05
to to turn that tide i mean just from
42:08
that article
42:10
oh sorry i was gonna say what if you
42:12
wrote
42:13
a little ebook called the voting booth
42:16
i’ll suggest that name you could call it
42:18
the voting booth
42:20
and it could talk about christian
42:22
political engagement what if you did
42:24
that
42:24
what if i did that four years ago and
42:27
it’s already available on amazon for
42:29
anybody who wants it for like i don’t
42:30
know
42:31
we may need to point that out again we
42:33
might yeah
42:34
yeah but alternative to that would be
42:38
take this uh latino pastor from the
42:40
article
42:41
like why not get a gathering of church
42:44
leaders from that community from
42:46
different
42:47
traditions all christian whatever and
42:49
have them come together and
42:50
and have those open conversations or
42:52
invite your congregations to meet
42:54
together and do a panel discussion about
42:56
how do we view our christian faith in
42:58
the public square and why does it lead
43:00
some of us to vote differently and how
43:01
do we
43:02
have a bigger vision of this and just
43:04
come to a place of diverse
43:06
engagement and understanding to broaden
43:08
their vision a little bit but the more
43:10
you have and this is not just true of
43:11
conservatives it can be just as true
43:13
of liberals if if your entire
43:16
environment is an echo chamber where
43:18
you’re only engaging in one
43:20
cable news network or a handful of
43:22
websites or just the algorithm from your
43:24
social media feed that keeps shoveling
43:26
the same
43:26
messages into your in your um inbox then
43:30
yeah you’re gonna get you’re gonna come
43:32
to this myopic vision that this is the
43:33
only way to be a faithful christian
43:35
in the public square so we have to begin
43:38
opening up
43:39
the dialogue and it’s it’s up to church
43:42
leaders to take the risk to do that
43:43
and i know this is the problem with our
43:45
ecclesiology is so many of our churches
43:47
will punish pastors
43:49
who try to do that um but at the end of
43:51
the day
43:52
pastors are not accountable to their
43:54
people they’re accountable to the lord
43:56
and at some point we have to decide who
43:58
we fear more
44:00
all right we need to wrap this up
44:02
because we’ve gone long now since we had
44:03
a two-day
44:05
a two-day news segment interrupted by
44:09
an apocalypse which generated its own
44:11
storyline
44:12
uh we have a guest guy i think we have a
44:14
guest i hope so we’ll see
44:16
i hope we have i guess this this episode
44:19
might be shorter rather than longer
44:21
if not it’s probably long enough as it
44:23
is all right guys you guys uh have a
44:25
great week
44:26
and we will see you next time wait can i
44:27
say one quick what what what
44:29
what okay what what super exciting news
44:31
today everybody
44:32
you can’t tell anybody you can keep it
44:34
secret
44:35
but we are going to be screening at a
44:37
drive-in movie theater on october 10th
44:40
in chagrin falls ohio with the girl who
44:42
wore freedom
44:43
it’s our first in-person film festival
44:46
screening so
44:47
you’re the first to hear it here okay
44:50
social media for it we’ll keep you
44:51
posted you can buy tickets and join us
44:53
if you are driving distance from chagrin
44:55
falls ohio i have no idea where that is
44:58
north ohio near cleveland check it out
45:01
check it out
45:01
okay we’ll see you next week all right
45:03
bye everybody everyone
45:06
how do you like your sermons i’m
45:08
guessing you prefer something that’s
45:09
easy to listen to
45:10
easy to understand maybe a sermon with
45:12
three alliterated points and a specific
45:14
application at the end after all no one
45:17
goes to church on sunday hoping to be
45:18
confused when they leave
45:20
no we want answers and we expect our
45:22
bible teachers to give them
45:24
but that’s not how jesus preached
45:27
although he taught the truth
45:28
he rarely told it directly instead
45:31
jesus told it slant indirectly subtly
45:34
and often wrapped in a story that was
45:35
actually designed to obscure the truth
45:38
for many of his listeners
45:39
that meant his audience had to work to
45:42
understand him
45:43
it took effort and concentration that’s
45:45
totally different from the comfortable
45:47
setting we try to create today in our
45:49
churches with our
45:50
cushioned theater seats and built-in cup
45:52
holders
45:53
that’s why we’re doing a series right
45:55
now in with god daily about jesus
45:57
parables
45:58
each day i’m writing to help you
46:00
understand the critical truths that he
46:01
taught
46:02
and were hidden in these stories and how
46:04
they apply to things going on in our
46:06
world today
46:07
like how the story of the good samaritan
46:09
relates to religious pluralism
46:11
or connecting the unmerciful servant
46:13
story to black lives matters
46:15
this is a series you don’t want to miss
46:17
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46:19
way
46:20
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46:22
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46:23
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46:25
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46:27
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From Exodus, to Exile, to Embrace—The Future of Christian Cultural Engagement (Skye Jethani)
Transcript
[00:00:00] Hey everyone, its Skye. I am not here with Phil or Christian. In fact, I’m not even here at all because this week I am away traveling and speaking. I’ll be in Hawaii at the YWAM base in Kona to teach a class? And then I’m going to Palm [00:00:15] Springs, California to teach a church Retreat and thankfully I have my lovely wife with me for the whole week. So we’re taking this sort of as a vacation as well. So on this week’s episode. We have something a little different for you. We’ve got a sermon that I preached earlier this year at Mission [00:00:30] Hills Church in San Marcos, California, and I thought this message might be a good fit for the holy post audience because it deals with a number of themes that come up repeatedly on the podcast this sermon is all about how should Christians be thinking about the way we relate to the culture and even [00:00:45] though Phil and I don’t talk about this explicitly on many episodes. We do actually have an agenda behind the holy post apart from the ridiculous banter and some of the more interesting interviews are real agenda is to help you get a ravishing vision of your life with God and
Figure [00:01:00] out how to live in a culture that is moving beyond Christian faith into a pluralistic society without resorting to fear or anger this sermon tackles a lot of those same themes. So I hope you enjoy it. I hope you find it helpful and we’ll be back next week with a regular episode [00:01:15] of the Holy post. What’s the news that you like the most? Who’s your favorite podcast host if it’s breakfast get your toast it sky and fill in the Holy post sky [00:01:30] and Phil and the holy post and sometimes Christian. My name is Skye. I’m delighted to be with you and grateful for the opportunity to share with you. I’ve been looking forward to this. We have a lot of ground to cover this morning. We [00:01:45] are going to look at the Old Testament and the New Testament. We are going to look at a lot of history. We’re going to talk about Mexican prison riots and Hollywood socialites. We’re going to talk about marriage and bad tattoos. We’re going to look at Medieval.
And [00:02:00] monkey trials all kinds of interesting stuff. So buckle up.
I want to begin with fashion.
And a fashion battle that I witnessed when I was a college student. So about 25 years ago. I was a college student at [00:02:15] a large State University in the Midwest and my freshman year a couple weeks into the end of the semester fall was coming. It was getting cooler outside. There was a group on campus called the glba. So for the gay lesbian bisexual Alliance and [00:02:30] in the fall every year they had a gay Awareness Week where they’d bring different speakers on the campus and have different events to kind of raise awareness for their cause and they started putting posters up around campus announcing jean day.
Jean de the poster said was [00:02:45] Thursday and it meant any students who supported gay rights were to wear jeans to show their support.
Now immediately everyone knew this is obviously a ploy because jeans are like a second skin for most college students and it was a way for the glba to inflate the perception [00:03:00] of their support and no one paid attention. There were dozens of groups on campus at all had their cause that always did these kinds of things no one paid attention until there was a conservative student group on campus that put up their own signs, which said if you do not support gay rights wear a shirt on Thursday. [00:03:15] So you have the silliness of the glb ace tactic was met and surpassed by the stupidity of the conservative groups play. So Thursday comes most students didn’t carry and they just go on with their lives. However, they were going [00:03:30] to dress that they didn’t pay attention to it. But some students took this very seriously. I was walking to class that morning and in the middle of Campus was the glba students all wearing blue jeans and no shirts including the women.
[00:03:45] And then there were the conservative students who were all wearing khaki pants and in some cases multiple shirts right to uphold, you know, conservative Traditional Values and find no one paid attention to get everyone on their lives and there’s day but in the middle of the [00:04:00] day around noon in front of the Student Center, these two groups got a new a clash and it was nasty. I mean the shouting the screaming people were trying to hold them apart from each other. It was the shirts versus the Skins. It was the khakis [00:04:15] versus the denims and as I’m watching remember, I’ve certainly been on campus for a few weeks. I’m a freshman. I’m like what on Earth is going on and I had the voice of my high school history teacher kind of echoing in my head because on graduation day. He told me Sky you’re going to do just [00:04:30] fine in college if you remember one thing college is not the real world.
And sadly in the 25 years since the real world has come to look an awful lot more like my college experience than I would have liked.
And we’re not screaming at each other [00:04:45] in the middle of a quad in front of the Student Center anymore and said were screaming at each other on cable news.
Or on radio programs or on Twitter social media or screaming at each other at school board meetings or in front of City Hall arguing about whether or not you can put a nativity scene [00:05:00] in there. Whatever.
Is this really how it’s supposed to be?
Is this supposed to be my tribe against your tribe or my group against your group? And if you’re not with me, you’re against me and all these different groups displaying their loyalties fighting [00:05:15] with one another about who’s going to dominate the Public Square who’s going to dominate Washington who’s going to dominate our policies and regulations and who’s going to get their way and who’s going to lose? Is that really what were called to
And not just as Americans, [00:05:30] but is that what we’re called to as Christians?
That’s what I want to talk about this morning. How are we as followers of Jesus supposed to engage our culture particularly as our culture becomes increasingly secular pluralistic and post-christian.
[00:05:45] Are the options before us either run away and Retreat from the culture or to fight and try to dominate and control the culture or is there another option?
To get into history a little bit throughout the 20th [00:06:00] century. There were primarily two ways that Christians viewed cultural engagement and a dramatic shift that happened in the middle and to describe that shift in these different postures are models of cultural engagement. I want to draw from to very [00:06:15] pivotal stories in the Old Testament. And the first is the story of The Exodus you remember Sunday school or you’ve seen Charlton Heston in the Ten Commandments every year and you know, the basic story of The Exodus the background is God’s people are slaves in [00:06:30] Egypt and they’re being oppressed and persecuted by pharaoh and his regime and God hears their cries and he sends Moses and he rescues them out of Egypt Remember The Parting of the Red Sea and all that stuff.
That’s The Exodus the exit of God’s people out of slavery in Egypt [00:06:45] and as they’re on their way to the promised land God gives them his laws and his instructions but a lot of these laws and instructions were designed to preserve the the special quality of God’s people as they are surrounded by all these Pagan cultures including Egypt, [00:07:00] he gives them instructions like you’re not to worship the same God that they worship you’re not to make idols and worship them you aren’t to eat foods that are different than what the Nations around you eat. You know, they all have these Pagan Kings you’re not going to be like that you’re going to have [00:07:15] an ethical system that values people who are poor or who are immigrants or who are slaves among you because you know what it’s like to be mistreated. So he had all these rules and regulations that were meant to keep the Israelites separate and distinct from the cultures [00:07:30] around them. That’s that’s the Exodus idea and it’s an idea that dominated much of 20th century Christian cultural engagement are really more properly labeled disengagement.
Let me give you a little background in the early 20th century. There [00:07:45] were all kinds of new ideas that were infiltrating our culture many of them coming from Europe.
Marxism Freud
Darwin scientific ideas new ideas about the Bible and about scripture and are [00:08:00] Miracles really possible and can you really trust the authority and historicity of the scriptures all these ideas are kind of flooding into North America and it caused what historians refer to as the modernist fundamentalist controversy if you want to research it on your own look it up on Google or whatever but [00:08:15] here’s the basics one side of the church said hey, all these new ideas that are coming in and Science and Technology and on and on we need to adapt to those things and realize that our faith needs to adapt and we need to abandon old ideas and really absorb these new things. They were called the modernists [00:08:30] the fundamentalist on the other side said no way we’re sticking to the fundamentals of the faith and we’re not giving an inch and this caused all kinds of riffs and turmoil in the culture and in the church and historians look at one particular event in 1925 is kind of a turning point. You [00:08:45] may remember this from high school history class the Scopes Monkey Trial remember that
This was a trial where a high school teacher intent in Tennessee was put on trial for teaching evolution and it became kind of this proxy battle for everything else [00:09:00] that was going on in the culture. Well coming out of that trial in 1925. A lot of Christians came to the conclusion that there’s no saving the culture is basically going to hell in a handbasket. It’s all downhill from here. So what we ought to do is completely disengage [00:09:15] withdraw from the culture.
And around the 1920s and proceeding a lot of Christians withdrew from politics from government from the academy from arts and entertainment from all kinds of sectors of [00:09:30] the of the Public Square. They withdrew into these safe enclaves, where were they their families their churches their institutions could be isolated and protected from the influence the Big Bad Evil influence of the culture around them. This is The Exodus approach be separate [00:09:45] be distinct protect yourself from the influence of the world around you it was also in this time period that a lot of American Christianity started to develop its own parallel subculture where we started our own colleges and universities. We started our own publishing [00:10:00] house as we created our own Radio Networks, and then eventually television networks, and now movies and there became this whole parallel Christian subculture that looked a lot like the regular culture, but it slapped a Jesus sticker on it.
That’s what happened in this time frame.
[00:10:15] But I want you to recognize is that this Exodus approach of separation is largely predicated on a fearful view of the world.
That it’s a dangerous and threatening place. And the best thing we can do is guard ourselves [00:10:30] circle the wagons and isolate.
In the Middle Ages, there was a theologian named Thomas Aquinas amazing. Brilliant theologian.
And he talked about how fear in the Christian is a Contracting posture [00:10:45] of the Soul. It kind of draws Us in word and it makes it so that were primarily concerned about ourselves rather than others and he compared a fearful person or fearful Community to a medieval city under siege. If again, you know your history when [00:11:00] an invading Army would come against the city all the peasants in the surrounding Countryside would gather all the resources they could as quickly as they could and then they’d run into the city walls and they barricade themselves behind the Gates hoping that the resources they had amassed inside [00:11:15] the city would Outlast the resources of the invading Army that would Siege the city of all around the wall the longest Siege of medieval history lasted 26 years.
But that’s an image of kind of The Exodus approach like we are going to hunker down [00:11:30] and protect ourselves our schools our families our churches our way of life. We’re going to guard our resources at it kind of makes us into a rather self-centered narcissistic view of things. It’s all about surviving.
And in much [00:11:45] of the 20th century the attitude of a lot of Christians was don’t worry about politics. Don’t worry about culture. Don’t worry about law to worry about the Arts because the end is coming and Jesus is going to rescue us out of here. So this just hunker down and play it safe.
But then about 50 [00:12:00] years into this Exodus approach a big shift happened.
In the 1970s a whole bunch of Christians realize this ain’t working and maybe we need to take a different approach and they came rushing back in from the cultural [00:12:15] Hinterlands to re-engage the Public Square and politics and government and everything else in 1976 Newsweek magazine actually had a cover declaring it the year of the evangelicals because so many of them had seemed to come out of the [00:12:30] woodwork and we’re re-engaging now question is why?
What happened that led so many Christians to decide this Exodus approach wasn’t the right way to go.
Well dancer that let’s go back into the Bible and the Old Testament. There’s [00:12:45] another incredibly important story in the Old Testament that explains the new way that Christians came to engage culture many centuries after The Exodus God’s people had been settled in the Promised Land.
And can’t get into all the details but [00:13:00] in 538 BC the Babylonian Army invaded the holy land they destroyed Jerusalem destroyed the temple and as the Babylonians were prone to do in their march across the known World when they conquered a people they would enslave those people and bring them [00:13:15] back as captives to Babylon. It was a form of assimilation. This is where you get the story about Daniel in the Lion’s Den and all that kind of stuff was happening during this Exile time. So there is a season for which the Israelites were captives in Babylon. They couldn’t go [00:13:30] home and a lot of the Israelites believed that this captivity would not last very long and so they weren’t settling in they weren’t kind of planting Vineyards or doing anything. They were just like, okay. When do we get to go back to our home when we get back to Joe to Jerusalem and the Lord spoke [00:13:45] to his people this is the passage that we heard read earlier. He spoke to them through the Prophet Jeremiah.
and essentially what the Lord said to them is you guys are going to be here for a while so settle in
Marry off your kids have grandkids [00:14:00] plant some Vineyards build some houses. You are going to be in Babylon a lot longer than you think now eventually you’re going to get out of there, but for now settle in and really important is what he says in Jeremiah 29:7.
[00:14:15] He says seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile for in its welfare. You will find your welfare. Sorry, that’s Jeremiah 29:7. Is that what I said? Yeah, 27 in other words.
[00:14:31] Make lemonade on a lemon out of lemons you’re in this horrible circumstance. You didn’t want to be here. But here’s where you are make the best of it.
And as you seek the well-being of the city that you find yourself in it’s going to go well for you. This [00:14:46] Exile approach is the posture that a lot of Christians have taken since about the 1970s. The attitude has been like oh my goodness, you know, we withdrew from the culture back in the 1920s 50 years has gone by Jesus hasn’t come back yet [00:15:01] things are getting worse, maybe instead of withdrawing. We need to engage. We need to participate we need to we need to have a role in this Babylon in which we are captives to make sure things go well for us.
This [00:15:16] has become a really popular model. In fact this verse Jeremiah 29:7. I encounter it so many places. I half expect to watch a football game and have some guy holding up Jeremiah 29:7 at some point. It’s just become this mantra for a lot of Christians. When we need to engage in the culture. We need to engage in politics. [00:15:31] We need to engage in government all these other things. So what was it about the 1970s that led to this shift?
Well, there’s kind of a popular narrative and then there’s the unpopular narrative the popular narrative is that the sexual revolution of the 1960s [00:15:46] which became codified into our laws in the early 1970s? Particularly row v Wade in 1973 kind of drove a lot of Christians to re-engage in the Public Square.
There’s some truth to that but it’s not the whole truth when you really study this issue [00:16:01] and get into the weeds of it you realize it wasn’t primarily the sexual Revolution movement of the 60s that led to Christians re-engaging. It was actually the civil rights movement of the 1960s and I don’t want to get in all the details here, but suffice it to say there [00:16:16] were a lot of Christian communities in the south in particular who were not happy about desegregation.
And they were motivated to re-engage government in the Public Square because they didn’t like what the government was doing with integration. So [00:16:31] they came roaring back into the Public Square for various reasons and decided we can no longer isolate ourselves. We can no longer be safe in our own communities. We can’t just be white in our communities anymore. So we need to fight back and we need to mobilize and [00:16:46] so they came back into the Public Square and they used this Exile vision of the world is turned into Babylon America is off of its judeo Christian Moorings and if we don’t fight to get it back it’s not going to go well for us and everything is going to [00:17:01] fall apart for our families and our kids and our schools and our institutions and and out of this came this language and you’ve probably encountered it in various forms this language about how Christians need to change the world.
I remember seeing that as a Seminary Student all [00:17:16] the time many years ago. We’re here to change the World to Change the World to Change the World. It’s become a mantra. There’s a fascinating book called to change the world that was written by James Davis and Hunter some years ago where he’s describing. Where did this idea this rhetoric of world-changing come [00:17:31] from for contemporary Christians? And here’s what he concludes the rhetoric of world-changing originates from a profound angst that the world is changing for the worse and that we must act urgently there’s a sense [00:17:46] of panic that things are falling apart and if we don’t respond now, we’re going to lose the things we cherish the most what animates this talk is a desperation to hold on to something.
When the world no longer makes sense.
[00:18:02] So for about the last 40 50 years the posture has been Christian engaged the Public Square engage the world because if you don’t things are going to go really really bad for you your community your family your [00:18:17] school would ever change the world to protect yourself.
All right. Now here’s the important part.
Despite this dramatic shift from disengagement in The Exodus mile model to re-engagement through the Exile model. [00:18:32] There’s a massive shift in strategy. What I want you to recognize is that underlying that strategy there was actually no significant shift in the way Christian see the world.
Both Exodus and Exile were [00:18:47] predicated on viewing the world as a fundamentally dangerous and threatening place.
Now assuming you took high school biology, you’re taught that when an organism feels threatened it will respond in one of two ways, right? [00:19:02] What are they?
Fight or flight that’s what we see here Christians feeling threatened by the world. And in the 1920s. The attitude was flight Let’s Escape. Let’s run away from it and isolate ourselves. And then [00:19:17] in the 1970s and onward the attitude became fight, let’s re-engage and dominate so that we can make sure it goes well for us but under both of those Visions is fear.
It’s an idea that we are under attack and we are afraid this goes [00:19:32] back to what Aquinas said when we are afraid. It contracts our souls. It makes us turn inward. We’re not concerned with loving others and serving others and blessing others were concerned about. How do I protect myself?
[00:19:47] How do I protect my tribe my family my community?
It’s all predicated on fear.
So let me take you back to Jeremiah 29:7 because there’s a detail in that verse [00:20:02] that you may not have noticed before that. I want you to see.
Jeremiah the Lord through Jeremiah says for the Israelites seek the welfare of the city where I’ve sent you into exile.
For in its welfare, you will find your welfare [00:20:17] now notice.
What motivates the Israelites the seek the welfare of Babylon?
Are they really interested in loving their Babylonian Neighbors?
Are they really wanting to see this Pagan Empire with all kinds of pagan [00:20:32] deities really flourish and Thrive because they just love Babylon so much.
Know the motivation in this text is very clear. It’s self-interest.
Seek the welfare of Babylon [00:20:47] so that it goes well for you.
This is an attitude that I think a lot of Christians have today. They’re not genuinely concerned about their neighbors who aren’t Believers or caring about a land that they don’t plan on sticking [00:21:02] around in very long because God’s going to rescue them out of it or take them home. It’s it’s out of self-interest rooted in fear and a desire for control. Now, this was an appropriate command back in the time of the Exile with Jeremiah because [00:21:17] the Lord needed to preserve His People Israel long enough in order to fulfill their purpose was the coming of the Messiah so they had a reason why they needed to preserve the way they were but if this is as far as we get in our understanding of cultural engagement, I would argue. This is a sub Christian view.
[00:21:33] Rooted in self interest in fear, and we’re called the far more than that.
So, why does this persist why do we keep coming back to this attitude?
Well, we have to remember that fear is one of the most Basic [00:21:48] Instincts of our species. It’s the easiest most efficient way to motivate people. It’s what most advertisers do it’s what most politicians do they make us afraid.
But we have not been given a spirit of fear. The Apostle John tells [00:22:03] us but a spirit of power and freedom.
And fear is not a quality that leads us into the kingdom of God.
There are all kinds of voices in the culture today who claim to be Christian some of them cultural [00:22:19] leaders some of them Christian institutional leaders some of them political leaders and they use fear to try to motivate us fear of that group or this issue or that policy and heaven forbid that this law passes or this person gets [00:22:34] on the court or this one gets elected and they use fear all the time to try to motivate us because it’s so easy and efficient, but let me tell you something if someone is leading you with fear, they are not leading you by the spirit of Christ.
In fact, I don’t think it’s [00:22:49] an overstatement to say they are leading you by the spirit of antichrist.
Where the fires of fear and anger are stoked the warm inviting glow of Christian love will not long endure.
[00:23:04] As Henry now and said fear only engenders fear it never gives birth to love.
And it’s so much in our church these days.
Is driven by fear and you wonder why [00:23:19] the culture react so negatively to so many Christians.
Because they see us a self-interested.
People who go on the attack against the perceived enemy shirts versus skins denim [00:23:35] versus khakis.
Were called to something more.
So if it’s not Exodus and it’s not Exile, what is the third alternative?
We got to get to the New Testament because there we [00:23:50] find a completely different vision of cultural engagement.
In the New Testament, we see a motivation far greater than just making lemonade out of lemons better than just tolerating a terrible circumstance better than [00:24:05] self-interest or just get by as best. You can we see a far deeper more profound understanding of the world, you know, when you read the gospels what you find there is interesting despite our bias toward total pragmatism is 21st century [00:24:20] consumeristic Americans. Jesus doesn’t actually offer a lot of practical advice in the gospels. You don’t see a lot about you know, here’s three steps to a better marriage kind of stuff in the gospels. It’s not there. Why
Because a lot of what Jesus did both [00:24:35] his miracles and his Parables were not primarily designed to be instructive. They were designed to be inspiration. They were designed to Open the Eyes of his disciples to see the world differently because Jesus understood if you [00:24:50] see the world the way he sees it you are going to act within the world the way he would act.
So he wanted them to see a world in which it made perfect sense that the first would be last. The last would be first a world in which the marginalized and [00:25:05] the forgotten neglected were actually entering the kingdom of God ahead of the religious leaders in the Pharisees. He wanted them to see a world in which it wasn’t the rich who were considered blessed by God and righteous but it was this poor Widow who puts just a penny into the offering he [00:25:20] wanted them to see a world in which even a child the most powerless and neglected in the society was considered great in the kingdom of God.
He wanted them to see a world where even a messiah who surrenders himself to the most cruel [00:25:35] and unjust system. The world has ever seen and is killed by that system rejected by everyone. We’re even that Messiah is raised up and given the name above all names.
He was turning everything upside down.
[00:25:50] Because he knew if his followers saw that world they would act differently within it.
Let me tell you a story about a place not actually too far from here.
Just South of the Border near Tijuana is [00:26:05] La Mesa prison, one of the most notorious prisons in Mexico home to 6,000 inmates. Mostly hardened criminals murderers drug lords the worst of the worst.
But in that prison for over 30 years there was one unexpected [00:26:20] occupant they called her, Mother Antonia.
She passed away just a few years ago in her 90s, but she spent over 30 years in this prison among these prisoners. She loved and cared [00:26:35] for them. She met with them and counseled them and prayed for them. She tried to get as many prisoners as she could to reconcile with their victims and seek forgiveness. She advocated for the prisoners making sure that they had food and water and medicines. She was a go-between between the prisoners [00:26:50] and the guards.
She even cared for the guards and their families she would go visit the families of the prisoners out in the community to make sure that they were cared for but the remarkable thing about this little nun wasn’t all those incredible things. She did. It’s that each [00:27:05] night.
When the prison was being shut down she didn’t leave.
She had a cell for herself. She wasn’t a prisoner. She voluntarily stayed there every night and slept with these hardened criminals. They [00:27:20] came to call her mama. She called them her sons.
Here’s the crazy part.
Mother Antonia didn’t enter La Mesa prison until 1977 before that. Her name was Mary Brenner [00:27:35] Clark and she was a blonde socialite in Hollywood.
She had been married twice divorced twice the mother of seven children when her children were grown. She felt a calling from God to enter a religious [00:27:50] order and to care for the poor and the marginalized but being Roman Catholic and divorced twice there weren’t a whole lot of religious orders for her to enter. So she packed up her station wagon drove South of the Border and entered Lamesa prison where she spent over 30 years serving those inmates.
[00:28:06] Ten years ago in September of 2008 despite the remarkable transformation of that prison. It was still a dangerous place and a riot broke out. The prisoners were upset that they weren’t getting their basic necessities met and somehow they got hand the cache of weapons and went [00:28:21] on a rampage and took hostages. This all happened when Mother Antonia was not in the prison and when she came back that night she found that all the electricity has been cut to the prison and the entire place was surrounded by soldiers.
She went to one of the soldiers and [00:28:36] beg to be let into the prison and they were like, there’s no way we’re letting an 85 year old woman into this prison with armed criminals and hostages.
Explain the risks you would be taking and she said I don’t care. I am not afraid.
[00:28:53] And she was a persistent little woman and they finally agreed to let her enter this prison.
The middle of the night she entered is completely dark. All the electricity has been cut.
And she finally found a prisoner. She knew named Blackie.
[00:29:08] She fell at his feet and began to beg him to end the riot and drop the weapons. This is what she said to him.
She said it’s not right that you’re locked up here hungry and thirsty we can take care of those things. But this isn’t [00:29:23] the way to do it. I will help you make it better. But first you have to give me the guns I beg you to put down your weapons.
Blackie responded to her mother as soon as we heard your voice we drop [00:29:38] the guns out the window.
Mother Antonia Mary Brenner Clark
Represents a different vision of engaging the world not Exodus [00:29:53] get me as far away from danger and discomfort as I can be not Exile. I find myself a prisoner here. I might as well just make the best of it. No, she represents the way of Jesus.
Which is the way of embrace?
[00:30:09] in Philippians chapter 2 the Apostle Paul tells us
that Jesus
had an attitude that we are all to have and he describes it this way though. He was in the form of God. He did not count equality [00:30:24] with God a thing to be grasped but emptied himself.
By taking on the form of a servant being born in the likeness of a man and being found in human form. He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death even [00:30:39] death on a cross.
Jesus came and embraced this world willingly.
This posture of embrace is different than Exodus and exile for three [00:30:54] reasons briefly cover. These the first is that Embrace is a choice.
This is important think back to Exodus in Exile Exodus and Exile were ways of responding to circumstances that you don’t [00:31:09] choose or like the Israelites did not choose to be slaves in Egypt.
They didn’t want to be there and they got out of there. And God said stay away. Don’t don’t go back to that kind of thing. Right? They didn’t want to be Exiles in Babylon, but [00:31:25] they decided based on God’s word. We’re going to make the best of a lousy situation until we get to go home that tends to be the attitude. A lot of Christians have about the world today man. This place stinks. This culture is terrible. Look at all the problems were having look at all the post-christian stuff [00:31:40] that’s going on. Look at the way. We’re all slipping away from Christian Morality In the Public Square and it always used to be so much better. We always talk about the culture so negatively like if we had a choice we would we wouldn’t be here.
[00:31:55] But Jesus chose to come and enter this world isn’t like he showed up in Bethlehem as a kid. I was like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe I’m here. What a mess. Right? Look father. Why did you drop me in this mud hole. Why am I you know, he [00:32:10] didn’t have that attitude.
Is that it stood was I want to be here I choose to identify with you. I embrace the realities The Temptations of the struggles and the Pains of this world.
[00:32:25] Because I love you so much.
Think about the messages that we send to our culture.
We meaning the church in general what the culture tends to hear from us as Christians of one is one of two things either man things used to be so much better.
[00:32:41] Or they hear someday things are going to be better again when Christ returns and everything is made right, but they don’t hear us talk to well about the present do they could you imagine if you’re a parent? Could you imagine if the messages that your children here are only like you used [00:32:56] to be so cute.
You used to be so much more adorable and loving or someday. I hope you really make something of yourself. Like if those are the only messages children ever hear. How do you think that’s going to affect them?
[00:33:12] Nothing about the message that the culture here is from the church and used to be so much better someday if we get control you’ll be okay again.
But they’re not hearing in affirming thing about today that [00:33:27] we want to be here that we choose to be or now. You might be thinking. Hey, wait a minute Jesus chose to empty himself. It says and take on the form of a servant he chose to enter the world and do what he did. I didn’t choose to be born. Now. I didn’t choose [00:33:42] this place unless you’re an immigrant. Maybe you chose this place. But how does this idea that to embrace the culture as a choice? How do we reconcile that with the reality that we don’t actually choose? Well one of the most important lessons I’ve [00:33:57] had to learn over the last I don’t know how many years
Is that real freedom and real Joy comes when we learn to choose what we did not choose
Let me explain that.
A couple years ago. I [00:34:12] was mentoring a college student who’s actually a graduate student wonderful intelligent guy named David and he called me up one day frantically and he’s like I have to get together with you. I need to talk to you immediately. Can you drop whatever you’re doing and meet me at the coffee shop. So make sure you sounded panicked. So [00:34:27] I show up at the coffee shop. We get our drinks you sit down at the table and he’s just beside himself and he’s like, I didn’t know who else to talk to. Thank you for coming here. He’s like I have something I have to ask you and I promise no matter what you say. I won’t tell anyone.
[00:34:42] It’s like, okay. What is this about?
Turns out that he had been dating a young woman for a while. It was getting serious. They were talking about getting married and he was about to pop the question and get engaged and he was getting cold feet.
So he leans [00:34:57] in like this cone of silence right over our table and he says Sky. I need to know honestly, do you ever regret the decision to marry your wife?
And I [00:35:12] was like, this is too much fun. I couldn’t just let this go easily. So I leaned into David I said
I didn’t make the decision to marry Amanda and he looked at me like what are you talking about? This is crazy. And he knew that I’m half Indian. My father’s [00:35:27] from India. My mother’s mostly Swedish and Norwegian. I’m a huge mess. But he he he’s like was this an arranged marriage what you didn’t tell me that I didn’t realize I said no. No. No, it was an arranged marriage. I said, I didn’t choose to marry Amanda.
I said [00:35:42] the sky from 19 years ago chose to marry Amanda. I now live with the consequences of his decision every day.
And to be completely honest most days. I’m [00:35:57] thrilled to be living with those consequences, but there are days when I’m not it’s hard.
But now by God’s grace. I find the strength to choose that which [00:36:12] I did not choose.
He had this big ugly tattoo on his arm.
He was looking at me dumbfounded the point. I said David you didn’t choose that tattoo. Your younger probably inebriated self chose that tattoo and [00:36:27] you now live with the consequences of it every day.
You didn’t choose this culture. You didn’t choose this time that place to be born.
But nonetheless God is inviting you to choose what you didn’t choose. Do [00:36:42] you want to be here?
Do you want to have the neighbors that you have? Do you want to be facing the challenges that our world today is facing. Do you want to be a man or woman of God following Jesus in this time [00:36:57] in this place, or do you do it kicking and screaming?
I think if we do it Kicking and Screaming not only does that communicate to our neighbors that we don’t really love them and care for them, but it’s actually an affront to God’s sovereignty who chose to put you in [00:37:12] this time and this place.
Do you choose this as the place where God has called you?
Because if you do choose it, you will find Freedom and you will find joy and you will find the grace [00:37:27] to act as he’s calling you to act. So that’s number one. Number two, the way that Embrace is different than just Exile or Exodus.
Exile in Exodus were or postures of cultural engagement that were [00:37:42] primarily self-centered. It was about protecting ourselves protecting ourselves from the influence of these Pagan Nations around us or protecting ourselves so that we can get back to Jerusalem. Once the Captivity is over protecting ourselves from the deterioration of the society [00:37:57] by withdrawing into our institutions and churches and schools or whatever protecting ourselves by seeking to dominate Washington DC and politics and policy right? It’s all about protecting ourselves, but Jesus is different.
He makes it clear that the reason [00:38:12] he showed up the reason why he came and entered into our Human Experience to dwell Among Us.
Was so that he might seek and save the Lost?
He came and declared that he didn’t come to be [00:38:27] served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many Embraces different because it’s motivation is for others.
Not for ourselves and one of the things that has tainted the witness [00:38:42] of the church in our age today is the perception is that we are all about ourselves. We’re about defending our rights our institutions our values our liberties.
But we’re not about to fight [00:38:57] for the other team. We’re not about to give ourselves away for them and their goodness. We’re not about to actually love our enemies. I mean who would have thought of something so stupid is that
but that’s exactly what we’re called to do.
If our Christian [00:39:12] cultural engagement is only about preserving Christian ideas and values and institutions than something is wrong.
Martin Luther King jr. Of course famous Civil Rights leader, but he first and [00:39:27] foremost considered himself a minister of the gospel and the gospel influence the way he went about his calling.
Obviously he fought hard.
For equal rights for African-Americans for desegregation and for the end of various [00:39:42] forms of institutional racism, but when you read his sermons and you read his writings you discover, there’s another element of his motivation. That doesn’t get as much play doesn’t get broadcast nearly enough. He frequently talked about what he called a double victory.
[00:39:59] And in his mind the double victory was this.
Not only would African-Americans be set free from the the dehumanizing effects of racism and segregation but he believed that segregation and racism dehumanized the white people [00:40:14] who practiced it
And he said my goal is not just to free African-Americans. I want to free my white brothers and sisters from the evil of racism in the way. It shrinks their souls and he says that is the double [00:40:29] Victory. It’s not just about rights for my group are my people. It’s I want to see those who consider themselves my enemies liberated and set free as well.
That is a mark of true Christian engagement. It’s [00:40:44] what Jesus did as he hung on the cross and looks at the very people who are executing him and says father forgive them.
because they need forgiveness to
Are we out there? Just defending [00:40:59] our rights?
Or are we willing to sacrifice ourselves even for those who hate us?
Are we only interested in defending religious liberty for Christians?
Or will we defend religious liberty for Muslims?
[00:41:15] for Jews for atheists for Hindus
Are we only interested in our right to speak freely?
Or will we defend the right of our neighbor whom we disagree with to speak freely.
[00:41:31] The vision of a church that’s only interested in itself is a contradiction to the witness of Jesus Christ.
And it’s rooted in fear rather than love finally last one Embraces [00:41:46] different than Exodus or Exile because Exodus in Exile were primarily concerned with survival.
Let’s just get through this so that we can get to the other side. Let’s just get through this Exile in Babylon because eventually we’ll get to go home to Jerusalem, right? It’s just perseverance [00:42:02] to get through a lousy circumstance.
Unfortunately lot of Christians also have this attitude man. I’m just passing through I’m white-knuckling it until I can get out of here either in a casket or in the Rapture right one way or another I’m out of this place. That is not a [00:42:17] new testament vision.
don’t have time to get into why I wrote a whole book on it, but
When Jesus showed up was his attitude. Okay. I just maybe 30 33 years. I can get out of this mess, right?
No, no.
[00:42:33] Everywhere Jesus went he didn’t just help people survive.
He brought flourishing.
He brought things to their ultimate amazing abundant goodness. He didn’t just say hey, I’m here to make sure you guys survive long enough to [00:42:48] get to the kingdom. He said no, I’ve come that you may have life and have it abundantly.
When people didn’t have a meal when they didn’t have enough food because they were sitting around all day listening to Jesus. What did he do that? He get him like some Lunchables and get them by for the day bread [00:43:04] and fish multiplied so their stomachs were distended like this and they had twelve basketfuls of leftovers, right and they weren’t even Americans they were gorging themselves on all this food when he shows up at a wedding and runs out of wind as he go. All right. Well, [00:43:19] let’s bring out the cheap stuff in a box. No, no. No the best wine they’d ever tasted is what he provided Jesus brings flourishing. Remember that story of John and Peter when they’re going to the temple and encountered that lame beggar.
And the Beggars asking for some money and beaters [00:43:34] like money, you know, we follow Jesus we got no money.
But what I do have I’m going to give to you. He says stand up and walk did that beggar stand up and walk? No, it says he leaped he started dancing jumping.
[00:43:51] Where the power of Jesus comes in people don’t just survive they flourish.
And our calling is not just a get by in this world are help a couple people make it as best. They can we are to see the fullness of the potential of lives expanding [00:44:07] and the reason for this is Jesus and his church and his followers are called to take pieces of the coming Kingdom and make them a reality in the present.
It’s not just about surviving until we can get off this rock. It’s [00:44:22] about bringing heaven to this rock.
To get a foretaste of the Kingdom that is yet to come.
So here’s the question.
What makes you afraid?
What makes you turn inward [00:44:37] to shrink to circle the wagons to barricade the walls to think only about your cells or your Institution?
And what kind of Grace do you need to move from Exodus or exile to a posture of embrace?
[00:44:52] I actually love this world. The way God has called us to to embrace this world to choose this world to seek its flourishing not for your sake but for your neighbors knowing that in Christ, you are perfectly safe. Not a Roman [00:45:07] Cross or an Assassin’s bullet can ever separate you from the love of God in Christ. And so you have been set free we have been set free.
To love the world as he has loved us.
Let me pray.
[00:45:24] our heavenly father
I pray for this church for my sister’s and brother’s here in this place that you have put them that they would be equipped.
[00:45:39] to love sacrificially
to bring flourishing and goodness
every home and school and office and hospital and every place they go in this community.
[00:45:55] I pray Lord that you would set them free from Fear.
They may walk in Freedom and joy and truly be that City on a Hill that light in the Darkness.
I pray that there would be a new [00:46:10] birth of Grace in this place.
So that many come to see you as you are.
Recognize the love you have for them through us.
[00:46:25] We ask all of this in the name of Jesus Christ Our Lord who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit as one God now and forever. Amen. The holy post podcast is a production of Phil vischer Enterprises. That’s Phil’s [00:46:40] company and Sky pilot media that Sky’s company production assistants by Sean McDuffie edited by Jason rug help us create more thoughtful Christian Media by supporting us at patreon.com forward slash. Holy post. Also be sure to leave a [00:46:55] review on iTunes. So more people can discover thoughtful Christian commentary plus ukulele and occasional but news