Jason Stanley, “How Fascism Works”

Jason Stanley discusses his book, “How Fascism Works”, at Politics and Prose on 9/25/18.

In this clear and direct primer, Stanley, the award-winning author of How Propaganda Works, draws on a wide range of history, philosophy, sociology, and critical race theory to define fascism, explain its mechanisms, and help people identify its red flags. At its most basic level, fascism is simply a movement that achieves power by dividing a population. A country can have fascist strains without actually being fascistic, Stanley says, and he identifies myriad seeds of authoritarianism in U.S. history, from the Confederacy and the Jim Crow South—which inspired Hitler—to the more recent birther movement and the rise of Trump. More generally he cites ten hallmarks of fascism, such as the mythic past, propaganda, anti-intellectualism, and unreality; on the rise today, these must be resisted if we are to stop fascism from gaining hold here.

https://www.politics-prose.com/book/9…

Jason Stanley is the Jacob Urowsky Professor of Philosophy at Yale University. Before coming to Yale in 2013, he was Distinguished Professor in the Department of Philosophy at Rutgers University. Stanley is the author of Know How; Languages in Context; Knowledge and Practical Interests, which won the American Philosophical Association book prize; and How Propaganda Works, which won the PROSE Award for Philosophy from the Association of American Publishers. He is a frequent contributor to The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Boston Review, and The Chronicle of Higher Education, among other publications. Stanley lives in New Haven, Connecticut, with his family.

21:00
so I you always hear to set it up you
always you I always hear people saying
well when when presidents a president
Trump take an example when his
supporters don’t realize they’re not
getting the material benefits they
expected they will throw you know he’ll
lose their support unfortunately that is
not how this kind of politics works it’s
not a politics of material benefit
it’s a politics of loyalty fascism is
about loyalty and power it replaces
material interests it replaces truth and
reality by loyalty and power ah as
Arendt says the fascists resemble Mafia
bosses they stock their administrations
with with family members and and and
people from their businesses because of
loyalty and that’s
Sisseton so I don’t look at people who
21:52
do that and say they’re being
21:52
inconsistent I say no good you’re being
21:54
consistent because loyalty is your thing
21:56
so uh so so what you what what in that
22:04
chapter I believe in him klemper is
22:06
talking about how much the psychological
22:09
wages of German as’ tied your tied
22:12
Germans to Hitler even well beyond the
22:16
point at which they should of April 1945
22:19
the Red Army is in the gates of Berlin
22:21
and clampers trudging through the woods
22:24
with a soldier missing an arm and he
22:27
says to the soldier I guess it’s time to
22:29
give up and the soldier says what do you
22:32
mean Hitler’s got them trapped and
22:35
klemper says what what the soldiers a
22:37
young man he’s lost his arm you know
22:39
what is he and Klemperer says uh and the
22:44
soldier says yeah it’s Hitler’s
22:45
birthday’s coming up and Hitler just
22:47
meant to suck the Red Army in and trap
22:50
them he’s never lied to us yet and
22:53
klemper says he’d been lying
22:55
consistently year after year after year
22:58
after year I mean literally people would
23:01
till the last moment I mean I’ve spent
23:03
years of my life in Germany and I’ve met
23:04
people who still believed in him so so
23:08
you know the bond of loyalty
23:11
what fascist politics tries to do is it
23:14
tries to break down your any of your
23:16
connection to your material interest and
23:18
say well what you have is you have you
23:20
national identity your ethnic identity
23:22
and your bond with the leader and that’s
23:25
why and and that bond is so powerful and
23:28
so meaningful to people that they will
23:30
you know they will just to see that they
23:33
will like it will last through great
23:36
trial and tribulation it will last you
23:39
certainly the loss of their material
23:41
interests and if you look at countries
23:42
that suffer from fascist politics I
23:45
would say Russia right now is one uh you
23:48
can see that the leader becomes very
23:50
popular even as people’s economic
23:53
situation becomes worse so you can’t
23:56
like wait around for oh you know when
23:59
their health insurance gets taken away
24:00
though no it doesn’t work like that I
24:03
mean
24:03
these are you know air Dewan in Turkey I
24:06
mean these are leaders who win elections
24:08
and they win elections by a politics of
24:10
loyalty they win elections by lying so
24:14
so so I’ll talk for five more minutes
24:19
and then and then take questions so I’m
24:23
going through so what I do in my book is
24:25
I give you a template I give you a
24:27
template of of sides I used to be I am
24:32
an analytic philosopher but I’m not just
24:34
one of the many things I am but I sort
24:38
of like militantly did not pay attention
24:40
to the world as my stepmother and my
24:44
father would always remind me and so
until birtherism so my first New York
Times piece in 2011 was about birtherism
because I had read enough Arendt to
realize that was weird that shouldn’t
happen in a democracy and I recognized
the trap the trap is something that’s
familiar from the protocols of the
Elders design and my family both my
parents are Holocaust survivors my
mother and father two of my three
parents are Holocaust survivors and and
so obviously protocols the other design
is something you talk about in when
you’re very young and some advantages so
so so this trap of you know Hitler said
the the lying press the press is owned
by the Jews and you can tell because
they never talk about the prosperous so
very familiar I recognized it
immediately I mean it was like maybe I
should write something not on the left
parenthesis so so so in 2011 I wrote my
25:53
first New York Times piece about that
the trap always works like this mr.
Trump President Trump when he came to
political consciousness he went on an
interview in Fox News and he said CNN is
controlled by the leftists and Obama you
can tell because they’re not talking
about birtherism that’s the same move
was made in the 30s the delusion plasa
the mainstream press you
they’re controlled by the Jews because
they don’t say they’re controlled by the
Jews law and justice party in uh in
Poland the hilariously miss named law
and justice party comes to power in 2015
in a country that had been whose
economic whose GDP had been going up
26:36
Civic Platform has done very well so it
26:39
wasn’t economic anxiety it’s not
26:41
economic anxiety in Bavaria either but
26:46
they came they did this move to I’m
26:48
emphasizing this because comic pizza is
26:50
right here uh so I can’t not talk about
26:53
the conspiracy theories as a sign so so
26:56
so what Piz did what law and justice did
27:00
is there was a Smolensk disaster when
27:03
which was admittedly horrific when a
27:06
plane carrying all of Poland’s political
27:10
leaders and business leaders and
27:12
military leaders crashed and and and
27:15
everyone was killed and there were about
27:18
between 20 and 25 conspiracy theories
27:22
about that crash it was pilot error
27:24
it was pilot error but admittedly it was
27:27
hard to believe it was pilot error so so
27:30
law and justice Road that to power you
27:34
know it was all about the conspiracy and
27:37
it was the Communists and it was
27:39
d’Arnaud communists in Poland but it was
27:41
the car just like there were no comic
27:42
very no communists very few communists
27:44
in the American South but the KKK still
27:46
acted like there were it was the
27:50
Communists it was the Russians
27:52
it was the Liberals who were who were
27:54
hiding out hiding the real facts of who
27:57
brought that plane down and you could
27:58
tell that the newspapers were owned by
28:00
the people who did it because they
28:02
didn’t report on it and when I saw
28:05
birtherism I was like oh yeah that’s
28:06
familiar and conspiracy theories work in
28:10
a weird way and I’ll end with us only in
deference to comet pizza conspiracy
theories function they functioned to
break down the epistemological spaces
they functioned to break down to their
their simple narratives that make sense
of of panic fear in Poland’s case
– and loss paranoia they’re not meant to
be taken at face value so Edgar Madison

Welch when he walked in so this is a
point that my colleague at UConn Michael
Lynch had made which I think is very
powerful he pointed out that when Edgar
Madison Welch walked in and and fired
three shots in that restaurant um three
or four shots I’m not exactly sure how
many uh I he was acting rationally right
if you thought that the Democratic Party
was running a child sex ring in the
basement of commet pizza by all means go
and free the child the children but he
was immediately denounced by Alex Jones
and everybody else as a spy for the
Democratic Party
so Michael Lynch makes this point to
point out conspiracy theories you’re
doing the wrong thing if you believe
them
they’re just supposed to make you you
know hate the target more they’re just
supposed to make you hate the target
more they’re not supposed to be believed
like that so what I do in my book is I
give you ten properties of fascist
politics the book is not about fascist
government I’m not saying you know you
could it’s about fascist and key and and
the difference being fascist government
fascist politics is tricky anyway
29:50
because fascism is our power so fascism
29:52
is a method to come to power people are
29:54
always like well do you really believe
29:56
that that does do do such and such
29:59
people like President Trump do do they
30:02
really believe you really believe he
30:04
believes the things that other fascist
30:06
movements uh believe uh and my response
30:10
is it doesn’t matter because fascism
30:12
isn’t about belief it’s about power so
30:15
it doesn’t matter like its first hit me
30:20
when I was reading Richard Grune burgers
30:21
1975 work on fat banks thanks to my
30:25
father’s library I have a rich
30:26
collection of history sociology
30:28
philosophy and psychology of the Nazis
30:30
so much else but uh but he says many
people think of the Nazis as morally
pure anti-semites they were devoted you
know devoted to killing Jews and
definitely
believed in it and got up and were very
neat and but actually a lot of them were
just thugs
they were just mafia gangsters and they
didn’t care about killing Jews they
cared about money they cared about
Jewish art and property but they were
doing the devoted anti-semitism thing
they didn’t care about it what they
cared about was the profits they got
from it and that’s I think what we need
to focus on when we think about fascism
it’s a tactic it’s a way to delude us to
seize power and retain power and and and
it has it like the history in our own
31:23
country thank you right he did he
31:33
started his campaign in the in that in
31:38
that county for the missus what was it
31:41
Philadelphia Mississippi right then I
31:44
forgot the name of the County Fair um
31:45
but but we’re good we’re good men and
31:49
Chaney were near we’re on a journey and
31:52
certainly we have the welfare clean
31:54
trope that you know the racial coding
31:58
now I think that one thing you get so
32:02
you have these really tripling down on
32:07
on America’s racial history on America
32:12
ground American racism in that camp in
32:14
those campaigns you have militarism and
32:17
you have and you have the and you have
32:20
the aspect and you have something that
32:24
is last chapter of my book social
32:27
Darwinism which is connected in certain
32:30
ways to economic libertarianism although
32:33
it’s inconsistent in various ways but
32:34
the idea is I talk about Hitler’s speech
the industrialists you know fascists
talk about winners and losers makers and
takers it’s all about you know who wins
has value who loses has no value so that
whole way of going on the other hand
Reagan does not explicitly you know
fascists are harshly on to
anti-democratic you don’t
32:58
the enemy of the state you you have you
33:01
okay to go on the Reagan I mean look
33:03
there’s gonna be a lot of overlaps
33:05
between social conservatives between
33:07
various forms of conservativism and
33:09
fascist politics but we can’t condemn
33:12
everybody we can’t say it’s a spectrum
33:15
fascist politics is a spectrum and and
33:18
our familiar conservatives are gonna be
33:21
on that spectrum just like just like
33:23
Bernie Sanders is gonna be on the
33:25
spectrum to something much more extreme
33:27
I mean he’s on the spectrum to Denmark
33:29
but yeah there are certain things he
33:31
says that are too bad leftist
33:33
authoritarianism so there is this
33:35
spectrum and and I don’t mean to and we
33:39
have in a liberal democracy we have to
33:42
have social conservatives we have to
33:44
have libertarians we have to have we
33:47
have to have progressives and socialists
33:49
we have to have this spectrum we’re
33:51
gonna have this spectrum but what
33:52
happens when you get something really
33:54
worrisome which I don’t think you quite
33:56
had you didn’t have with Reagan is when
34:00
you have these different things I mean
34:01
look at Reagan on immigration for
34:03
instance I mean he isn’t demagoguing on
34:05
immigration
34:06
he isn’t when you have these overlaps
34:09
when you have you know social
34:11
conservatives business and corporate
34:13
elites libertarians all coming together
34:17
and nationalists coming together and
34:19
saying let’s have a group you know a
34:22
constellation and we might disagree on
34:25
certain things but let’s unify and then
34:28
you can get fascist constellations there
34:30
but I I think you know I think Reagan
34:34
had elements that are there like but
34:38
also we have to remember that lots of
34:40
Canuck just like you know you wouldn’t
34:42
want to say that oh very socially
34:46
progressive policies just because they
34:47
do that in communist countries that’s
34:49
communist
34:50
so I wouldn’t want to paint Reagan as
34:53
engaging in fascist politics he’s not
34:55
harshly anti-democratic in the way that
34:58
you you find with just respond really
35:02
quickly I guess my my thing was the
35:04
militarism and really the dangerous
35:06
militarism during his empire is yeah
35:09
but really the building of the empire
35:11
and like the really the strong anti on
35:14
this strong racist tone of things is
35:16
really right and the and though and and
35:18
those are overlaps and and i think a dis
35:21
analogy now is you don’t find President
35:23
Trump actually being as Empire oriented
35:28
I mean it’s tricky there people will say
35:30
I think now people use fascist politics
35:32
they used to use it in in the 30s it was
35:35
used to mobilize people for war
35:38
now it’s used to demobilize people so
35:41
it’s a tech it’s a set of techniques and
35:43
you know and it overlaps with techniques
35:45
and and and you know and people use some
35:48
of them you know there’s a spectrum
35:53
there’s a spectrum and and yeah I want
35:58
to thank you I think this is a very
35:59
important discussion and I’m from the
36:01
Caribbean grew up in the Netherlands and
36:04
it’s been a quite a significant amount
36:06
of time they’re in a different type of
36:08
Netherlands then it has become sadly
36:10
enough right when I was the Netherlands
36:11
if you had told him that characters I
36:15
mean these guys would be twenty to
36:17
thirty percent of the population
36:18
literally people would lock you up and
36:19
put you in a psychiatric institution say
36:21
thinking too much you literally are you
36:22
kind of lost it you know this is not
36:24
what the Netherlands about we are you
36:25
know civilized decent people although
36:27
you know they have a very we have a very
36:30
horrific history of colonialism which is
36:34
not talked about at home but the issue
36:36
is a few questions and these questions I
36:39
think are provoked by some of the things
36:43
you said I think you wanted something
36:45
quite profound when you said that what
36:47
we are dealing with now is a demobilized
36:50
depoliticize and the ideologized pop
36:54
population populations not only in
36:56
America see if this was only happening
36:58
in the United States okay okay but I’m
37:02
so called fringe Dutch I mean between
37:03
brackets right I’m from the Caribbean
37:05
but so-called French Dutch um this
37:09
France right the last elections right
37:11
people were panicked that marine lepen
37:13
walks into the White House right and we
37:15
know if she walks there what is going to
37:17
happen she’s not made she made it very
37:19
clear from well you know one of the big
37:21
problems I see is that in you
potentially the Muslims become the new
Jews absolutely you know the Muslims we
come to new Jews right
but the issue it at that I want to deal
37:30
with here is a more profound issue that
37:33
this type of fascism is indeed to
37:34
mobilize the demobilize in essence what
37:37
you have a mass talks about legitimize
37:39
the crisis of the West right and the big
37:40
problem is when you have a legitimate
37:41
Christ is not taking place on one level
37:43
alone right economic social political
37:45
legal right moral ethical domestic
37:48
international on all different levels
37:50
the white West and not is facing crisis
37:53
on crisis and crisis that are feeding
37:55
back in and creating problems another
37:57
problem that you have in a Western I
37:59
think this is a major problem me and I
38:01
didn’t think you touch on it is that if
38:03
you look at the populations here right
38:04
populations that are so-called
38:05
Democratic you know I mean I’m glad you
38:09
began claiming that the democracy always
38:11
never much of anything at all it was
38:13
much more a job to fool people and then
38:15
in democracy the issue is that in these
38:18
populations a long time twenty to thirty
38:20
percent of the population remain quite
38:22
fanatically right even look what
38:25
happened to Communist Party in France
38:26
right the communists moved move over to
38:28
the fascists they didn’t tell you how
38:35
how strong the Communist identity of
38:39
brotherhood and sisterhood of rattle and
38:41
stuff like that so I mean how do you see
38:44
and the big problem of your face is that
38:46
often these fascistic parties tend to be
38:49
the most mobilized part of the
38:50
population right right
38:51
why well well well the majority of the
38:54
party although somewhat against I mean
38:55
Hitler never got a majority he always
38:57
got forty percent but but they are
38:59
highly mobilized and you only need forty
39:01
in a small
39:03
organized minority to create have
39:05
everyone is scared I mean everybody’s
39:07
killed so how do you see and do you see
39:10
anywhere in the West at this point in
39:12
time really
39:13
they since the average trade unions are
39:16
gone the socialist and communist party
39:17
out are we and very few intellectuals in
39:20
academics are really really speaking out
39:22
as a really standing up here and say
39:24
wait a minute here guys right you people
39:26
in the Western or not you white people
39:27
in a western or not right now I’m saying
39:29
that’s kind of provocative because my
39:31
part you know your apps a most European
39:33
a most of the European descent but the
39:36
issue is you
39:37
white people in to not be very careful
what you’re doing right because you are
facing a massive influx of black and
brown people here because of global
warming what do you do when you across
that when you look at the Mediterranean
50 60 million Africans are about to come
genocide you fall back the default
position of genocide let me hear what
you guys said yeah let me just say one
39:57
quick thing I’m gonna get another
39:58
question there was a great series of
points that you raise the climate change
point Timothy Snyder talks about that at
the end of black earth he warns that
that’s our big and I talked about that
in my book as well picking up on Tim’s
on Snyder’s points that you know climate
change is gonna lead to immigration
crises that you know crises immigrant to
massive immigration that we’re gonna
have to deal with but let me say
something about the point of oh you know
40:27
the majority minority point that oh soon
40:29
the countries give me a
40:30
majority-minority president Trump and
40:32
his campaign always emphasized that you
40:36
know uh my colleague Jen Richardson the
40:39
great social psychologist she she has
40:42
done this experiment she’s on a number
40:44
of experiments on the on this she showed
40:46
she when you get she presents white
40:48
Americans with three three questions
40:52
three different groups of white
40:53
Americans the first she says in 2042 the
40:56
Netherlands will become majority
40:58
minority the second group she says in
41:00
2042 the United States will become
41:03
majority senior citizen and the third
41:06
group she says in 2042 the United States
41:09
will become majority minority and then
41:13
she asked him a series of political
41:15
questions the first two groups don’t
41:17
change their MA they did they their
41:19
politics doesn’t change that she gets a
41:21
test of them before what their political
41:23
leanings are the third group of white
41:25
Americans that’s presented with the
41:27
information in the United States is
41:28
gonna become majority minority becomes
41:30
more becomes again more against the firm
41:33
ative action more against the air for
41:35
immigration and interestingly because
41:38
Jen Richardson is a genius she added
41:40
this they become much more in favor of
41:43
increased defense spending so so that oh
41:47
we’re going to become majority minority
41:50
it it enables right-wing politics or a
41:55
certain kind of politics maybe not right
41:57
wing but that could you talk a little
41:59
bit more about what appears to be
42:02
increased white anxiety and white
42:05
feelings of white victimization and how
42:08
does how to talk a little bit about
42:10
Trump’s role is he a symptom of
42:15
something that’s going to continue after
42:17
him or what happens to fascist movements
42:20
when leaders disappear ah
42:22
you know that’s that’s that’s re they
42:25
always have succession crises but I but
42:27
I’d you know we have more Trump’s so
42:30
there so but he is an expert a real
skilled expert at milking white anxiety
there was that quote that he that he and
and the psychological wages of whiteness
point like remember that thing he said I
remember I don’t remember when he said
42:46
it but you know he said something about
42:48
poor white trash and someone someone
42:49
said what is that he said like me except
poor so that connect he’s I have great
respect for his rhetorical political
abilities
we’re always it we always have this
43:01
nascent the dominant group
I mean think of the men’s rights
movement I mean is there any more
aggrieved group on earth than men when
their representation in the Senate goes
from 98 to like 83 or whatever 75 you
know you know just look at how men act
and you know and you know and that’s
what’s going on and that’s what happens
it’s all look at France the example of
France there’s a good example you know
43:30
the the aggrieved the you know we’re
43:34
losing our culture we’re losing our so
that’s a big one chapter in my book is
called victimhood and it’s all about
this it’s a whole chapter just about
this could you wouldn’t would you agree
that an important benchmark for
43:49
authoritarian is in this country might
43:52
have its roots in Eisenhower’s farewell
43:55
address in 1960 I guess in which the
44:00
leading General in the world
44:01
representing the strongest country in
44:03
the world
44:03
I spoke about this fear and then
44:06
subsequent to that you had three of our
44:09
foremost civil rights leaders slain
44:11
under dubious circumstances the official
44:13
narrative which only thirty and thirty
44:15
percent of Americans believe and then
44:17
you had this Vietnam War and there were
44:20
protests all over the country or there
44:22
were cities burning there were people
44:24
killed at Kent State and now we have
44:29
multiple Wars and nobody says a word so
44:33
what’s your take on this so I have a lot
44:35
in my book on Nixon
44:36
so I’m when I talk give talks on that
44:39
people because Nixon is a model for
44:41
Trump President Trump of course I mean
44:44
law and order politics you know Nixon
misses miss rep you know there’s a whole
protest misrepresented as riots think of
Baltimore 2015 so I talk in my book
about how Fox News described uses the
word riot use the word riot seven out of
every 1000 words
in describing Baltimore what happened in
Baltimore and protests only two words
out of 1000 CNN used them roughly
equally around three and a half words
per 1000 riot and protest and MSNBC used
riot two words out of 1,000 and protests
almost four words out of 1000 to
describe Baltimore to this radical
partisan difference in descriptions of
political protests the sixties you
really saw that you know so much so that
someone of my age I’ve been 36 for 12
years ah is I can’t even say Detroit
protests cuz it doesn’t come out of my
mouth because I was raised in schools
that just taught me Detroit riots you
know but then you you have Kathryn
Bigelow’s movie then you realize an
actual history they were protests and
you know you just focused on like one
you know a few people doing bad things
and you paint them a certain way so the
sixties Nixon’s campaign you know again
my books not about fascist government is
about fascist politics I think you see
with Nixon a lot of use of fascist
politics and I’m sure you couldn’t go
back because as I’ve been saying this is
us it’s not them do
you think the history of the the take on
Lyndon Johnson Lyndon Johnson might get
a more critical view because he kind of
laid the groundwork for Nixon and and
his involvement in the war his refusal
46:29
to get out of it the pressures that kept
46:32
in a minute so so in in in in a week in
46:35
October 12th at Harvard bookstore I’ll
46:37
be in discussion with Elizabeth Hinton
46:38
who’s who has written the greatest book
46:41
about the domestic policies of job
46:44
Johnson and and Nixon from the war on
46:48
poverty the war on crime the making a
46:50
mass incarceration in America and that’s
46:52
about the domestic policies so it’s a
46:54
different point you’re asking about the
46:55
foreign policy but I think on domestic
46:57
policy you know there are some issues
47:00
with Johnson that lead to Nixon as well
47:04
I mean John a lot of Johnson’s projects
47:07
in the in in cities were with minority
47:13
populations we’re sort of like here’s
47:15
how to learn to pull off here’s how to
47:17
act like someone with a job or something
47:19
like that rather than providing people
47:21
jobs you know which is like you know
47:24
trumpet was smart and you know could you
47:26
imagine Trump going to like rural
47:27
Michigan and being like I’m going to
47:29
teach you how to act like bankers no he
47:32
wasn’t doing that
47:34
so so right so so I Nixon I talk and so
47:38
those are interesting questions in the
47:39
Hinton book I think talks about the
47:42
hints of Nixon and Johnson while giving
47:45
him credit for certain things so first I
47:49
just want to say thank you for coming to
47:50
talk tonight who’s really interesting
47:52
and so my question is or first I’ll just
47:56
say on you mentioned that a key tactic
47:59
of fascists is to caricature the
48:01
center-left has been communists but I
48:05
feel like it seemed to me that you made
48:08
that same mistake when you talked about
48:10
how when you talked about opposition to
48:14
unions because that seems like a pretty
48:17
mainstream right dumb view to be opposed
48:20
to unions right I didn’t mean to I I
48:22
don’t mean to say that each so there’s
48:25
ten different aspects to fascism each
48:27
one of those aspects is going to be
48:29
familiar
48:30
from ordinary conservative father’s okay
48:31
it’s the combination but it just didn’t
48:35
occur to me that opposition to labor
48:37
unions is a uniform feature of all
48:40
fascism I learned that in doing the
48:42
research for my book so no you can have
48:45
good sound economic reasons you know
48:47
there are good for each of these things
48:49
you know for each of these properties
48:51
for you can be I mean some of the
48:55
hierarchy some of the chapters about
48:57
racial hierarchies okay that’s pretty
48:59
fascist but but you know as I say in my
49:02
book economic libertarianism overlaps
with fascism on social Darwinism like
winners have value losers don’t but
they’re different in other ways like
consistent libertarian will never
generalize to groups and say you know
white people have more value than
non-whites because they work harder and
win more you know so so there are these
overlaps and you know I just think it so
screams out from you from the literature
it’s just universal that’s you know you
go to Portugal and you go to their
49:33
Museum and Lisbon and they talk about
49:35
the attack and labor unions and you know
49:38
it’s so universal and you has to be
49:40
mentioned but of course you can
49:42
criticize labor unions and not be a
49:43
factor yeah thank you and for each of
49:45
these thank you we are your parents uh
49:50
well my stepmother is here and she
49:55
helped a lot with the book she gave me
49:59
she gave me and my brother-in-law’s is
50:01
there where you are profound and you are
50:04
brilliant and I think your parents your
50:07
family should and friend should be very
50:08
very proud of you
50:10
now I’m well read on reconstruction but
50:14
the issue that you spoke about with
50:16
respect to anti unions and wealthy
50:21
whites in the north coming down that I
50:25
have not read about and do not know
50:27
about I knew you know certainly with
50:29
Rutherford putting the nail in the
50:30
casket and you know wanting to a peace
50:34
to south and pulling the troops all
50:35
right so that he could win the election
50:37
I want you to talk a little bit more
50:39
about the north in
50:42
you know coming against the the labor
50:45
unions and I wanted to get your take on
50:49
what happened in Charleston with the
50:52
massacre at you know mother Emanuel
50:57
Church as well as what happened in
50:59
Charlottesville
51:00
because after listening to you you do
51:03
see a theme and when you know Trump come
51:06
you could say the most horrible thing
51:08
about McCain
51:09
I prefer winners in people who don’t get
51:12
duh you know yeah so so I’ve been
51:19
spending more time lately for my sins
51:22
with former members of Nazi parties and
51:26
I mean I was a so a friend of mine is
51:29
Tony Mack Lear the director of like
51:31
executive director of life after hate he
51:33
spent 20 or so years as a Nazi and
remarkable man and he’s very clear that
the law I mean I think we all know this
from David Duke the long-term goal of
the American Nazi Party was to to be
respectable and for that they had to
have people who were not respectable
so Tony Mack Lear said at one talk I won
symposium we’re out together he said the
first time I was on Montel Williams I
was a skinhead with combat boots and
tattoos the second time I wore a suit
and he explains that you need the
killers the radicals out there to say
that’s not us you’re seeing this all
over you’re up now you know the Austrian
Kurt Sebastian Kurtz all what happens is
that the right wing parties are like
we’re not not white supremacists the
white supremacists are the ones actually
killing people the ones marching on the
streets were respectable we’re in
government were in and but they need
each other so the in order for the for
the people in power who are pushing
white supremacy to plausibly deny that
they’re white supremacists they need
Charlotte’s VLEs because they need to
say no no those are
supremacists and Tony McLaren explain
that this is long been the strategy I
know of of the American Nazi Party and
it’s and and David black the former the
the son of the storm front founder is
also very clear about this he’s like he
says what we hear from our leadership is
the kind of things that we always he
said our target audience was always the
person who said I’m not a racist but dot
dot dot so you need you need the
charlottesville and the horror of
Charleston which is unspeakable horror
of Charleston because those provide
plausible deniability to white supremacy
and power and and we know those of us
who study history and and who are a
woman of color as I am and a descendent
of people who were enslaved both or
53:50
maternal returns so we always knew in
53:52
the communities and certainly in the
53:53
South when people when the KKK took off
53:56
those hoods they were your local doctor
53:58
you’ll put your Sheriff your policemen
54:01
your store owners you know not all of
54:04
them but these were the respectable
54:07
people and it was the hood that allowed
54:10
them to to you know to really crucify
54:14
and you know and hang people and uh so
54:17
we I mean the wisdom of the black
54:19
American tradition guides me in my book
54:21
I mean I to be wells oh absolutely
54:25
that’s Du Bois obviously I probably owe
54:30
boys today but it’s he earned yes so so
54:38
because that those it’s that literature
54:43
that you get the insight into the form
54:46
fascism takes here and so someone from
54:49
like me who’s from Europe the certain
54:52
sort of particular masks fascism wears
54:57
here that’s something you really need
54:59
the black American literature to
55:01
understand but thank you for your work
55:03
and thank your parents
55:07
and my brother finds out it earlier this
55:16
year I read another book by a
55:17
psychologist named Steven Pinker called
55:20
enlightenment now staring me in the face
55:22
right over there and in the book he
55:26
argues that the world is getting better
55:30
and better and this is the best time to
55:33
be alive the best time to be born and he
55:36
extolled the virtues of of the future
55:38
and so I want to you know ask you what
55:43
what you feel about that how what’s your
55:45
response to that and are you optimistic
55:48
about the future I mean you’re talking
55:49
about possible fascism in this country
55:52
so let me quote my my father’s book the
55:54
technological conscience where he says
55:58
pessimism is very much the humanistic
56:01
view he says I am a pessimist pessimism
56:04
is very much the humanistic view so so
56:09
that’s just to say that I think that I
56:12
think Pinker I mean we could go on about
56:14
Pinker I’m not going to I think that
56:16
when you count you know says err already
56:19
does a takedown of Pinker a long time in
56:23
in famiiy this is that what’s this is
56:29
our book I’m just blanking
56:31
well discourse on Colonials do you thank
56:34
you so uh so and discourse and
56:36
colonialism where he’s like you know you
56:37
count you tell us about the diseases
56:41
you’ve cured you tell us about the you
56:44
know the new food that we access from
56:46
Europe and yet what about the religion
56:49
you destroyed what about you know the
56:51
traditions you eliminated what about the
56:54
ways of life you laid waste to can you
56:57
count those you know so Pinker it’s just
57:01
like no it only matters if you can count
57:02
it dignity doesn’t count you can’t count
57:04
dignity so you’ll also find me
57:07
criticizing Pinker in recent years
57:09
Pinker is very as a Pinker has not all
57:12
to write himself but Pinker does have a
57:15
lot of all right fans if you look at
57:17
Pinker’s views about the IQ debate their
57:19
problem i mean
57:20
as you’ll find some stuff on Pinker
57:22
there um you know this idea of we have
57:26
to face you know we have to face the
57:28
facts of difference nature I mean I
57:31
think he’s right that you know I’m not
57:33
for banning discussions but the
57:35
fascination that he has with the IQ
57:37
debate is something that I think is kind
57:39
of worrisome so and I’m worried about
57:42
the sort of technocratic way of
57:44
measuring human value that said in any
57:47
country that had the civil rights
57:49
movement and I mean if I did had to do
57:52
the civil rights movement I definitely
57:53
would have done it in Vermont but they
57:55
chose like Alabama and Mississippi so
57:57
given that I feel quite safe in the
58:00
United States ultimately I feel
58:02
optimistic because this is a country
58:04
that did that so the labor movement you
58:09
know Jane Addams I just wanted to make
58:14
two brief comments one about giving
58:18
value to things and if we really just
58:21
take a quick scan of history going back
58:25
to as far as we can go back it seems
58:28
like human life does not have a lot of
58:30
value it in just that’s just a general
58:36
comment and if we look at capitalism and
58:42
the globalization of everything and all
58:46
these wars and like you said there’s two
58:49
wars going on Noma and I’ve said this to
58:51
myself why is no one talking about our
58:54
troops that we still have in Afghanistan
58:56
and Iraq and in these places then
58:59
they’re still getting blown to pieces
59:00
and I know because my first job out of
59:04
college I worked at the VA hospital in
59:06
the 70s when the guys were first coming
59:08
back from Vietnam so that’s just what I
59:13
want to say about the value of human
59:15
life now on a lighter side I would like
59:19
to say which you which you said about
59:23
Dubois and then you said about the new
59:27
push for Black Studies in colleges and
59:31
that it was going to replace Shakespeare
59:34
yeah yeah I know it’s just it’s just a
59:37
joke but I just wanted to play on that
59:40
because it from my experience and having
59:45
done like studies and everything else
59:50
there’s a lot of credit and study given
59:55
to Shakespeare people who write Ln Locke
59:59
Dubois a little bit too much yeah and
60:03
also I wanted to say that most of our
60:07
most appreciated african-american actors
60:12
studied Shakespeare to the hilt
60:16
you know the most excellent Shakespeare
60:21
no I mean I mean that God is ultimately
60:23
you know I mean the great Jeffrey
60:25
Stewart Alain Locke biography talks
60:28
about I mean Locke won the sort of
60:30
literary prize at Harvard for for
60:32
something on its hat on Irish Irish
60:35
poetry and he gave a talk in a black
60:37
church in Cambridge saying look the
60:40
Irish created the greatest were were
60:42
colonized and oppressed and their
60:44
revenge was to create the greatest
60:46
English language literature and poetry
60:48
and he’s obviously encouraging taking
60:51
that as a speaking Paul Dunlop I think
60:54
it was also electrode and Dunlop right
60:56
absolutely so right and of course Dubois
60:59
sort of takes that to extreme the
61:00
extreme with the talented tenth so I I
61:03
don’t mean to by the way Pinker is a
61:05
liberal Pinker and I have family
61:07
disputes ultimately he’s a technocratic
61:09
liberal of a certain kind I have family
61:11
disputes with him but he’s obviously
61:14
gent in some general sense on my side
61:18
what he’s all right he’s all tracked
61:23
know the alt are certain aspects of
61:25
Pinker that the alt-right pick up on
61:29
that you know the the stuff which is a
61:32
danger of the messaging so I’m not he’s
61:35
definitely not all right he’s it’s that
61:37
you got to be careful I mean one should
61:41
be sensitive to the messages that like
61:45
Pinker said recently
61:47
I think it was in Davos and a panel
61:50
where he said you know the alt-right are
61:52
really bright tech-savvy people who come
61:55
to college and realize there are certain
61:57
topics that you’re not allowed to talk
61:59
about and then they feel shocked and
62:02
then they become all trite that’s the
62:05
kind of I think that was an
62:06
irresponsible comment of course he’s on
62:08
my side but I just think that’s an
62:10
irresponsible comment of course that’s a
62:11
comment that makes some people you know
62:14
that he does not agree with it puts them
62:17
in so that’s that’s that’s that’s all
62:20
I’m saying ultimately we can’t have
62:22
these family disputes between different
62:24
stripes of liberals and so I don’t want
62:27
to do that though I do want to say I
62:29
don’t think that’s why people become
62:30
alright we are unfortunately out of time
62:36
for questions although if you want to
62:38
make a brief question make it really
62:40
quick them we can fit it in the question
62:46
is for you to elaborate maybe we don’t
62:48
have time for any more elaboration on
62:51
anti-intellectualism which was one of
62:53
the 10 I guess that you have and you
62:55
didn’t really say much about it and it’s
62:57
a case that I see certain parallels with
63:00
the sort of the were the Left
63:05
philosophies of I don’t know class
63:08
warfare and I mean I think it seems like
63:11
now was an anti-intellectual yeah many
63:14
respects yeah I mean I think I think
63:17
that I what you get in fascist ideology
63:23
is is like the straightforward fascist
63:28
ideology is about appealing to emotion
63:34
not that there’s some emotions can be
63:37
perfectly rational as Martha respond
63:38
others as many philosophers would tell
63:40
you but the idea is to cut off reasoning
63:44
by you know fear panic and and and just
63:47
and then just replace and show you and
63:50
then present yourself as like the
63:51
solution you got this very explicitly
63:54
discussing you know in in meine Kampf
63:56
Hitler talks about you know propaganda
63:58
should appeal to you know the least
64:00
educated
64:01
so you know the idea that it’s the least
64:03
educated your who’s your who your
64:06
audience or no talk you know essentially
64:08
that’s what you want to appeal to Bannen
64:10
said you know we want unlock her up
64:13
build a wall you know we won on that but
64:16
there’s a kind what why I talk about me
64:19
anti-intellectual chapter is this all
64:22
across the world right now we’re seeing
64:24
in these condo countries I discuss
64:26
attacks on universities for being
64:28
bastions of liberalism feminism European
64:33
University of st. Petersburg was closed
64:35
down because of gender studies Central
64:38
European University was was attacked
64:42
because they’re spreading liberalism so
64:45
this kind of thing when you find
64:46
universities harshly targeted as
64:48
bastions of leftism and you know now of
64:52
course sometimes they are not Yale but
64:55
the the yell is a great place it’s not
64:59
that but you know when you find this
65:03
hysteria about this area about communism
65:05
being being directed at universities and
65:10
the media you know and fanned now it
65:13
takes the form of Gender Studies panic
65:15
about Gender Studies because that’s just
65:18
like Masha Gessen is clear about that in
65:20
her 2017 book that Gender Studies just
65:24
seems to be and and you know Pat McCrory
65:26
in North Carolina did that he said we’re
65:29
not gonna have this tax governor in
65:30
North Carolina said they were not gonna
65:31
be taxpayers paying for gender studies
65:34
or Swahili so so the idea is is you know
65:41
so you target universities in your
65:43
politics now all authoritarians target
as you say target universities in our
politics because universities are places
where young people protest against older
people and so that’s gonna be something
65:56
that that as I get older I recognize the
65:59
wisdom of seeing that as a problem but
66:03
yeah thank you
66:05
[Applause]
66:20
you

Why Conservatives and Liberals Think Differently

It may be obvious that people who identify politically as liberals and conservatives think differently because they disagree on issues ranging from immigration to climate change policy. But what are the deeper psychological roots that drive their political beliefs? In the aftermath of the federal election, the Agenda explores the conservative mind vs. the liberal mind.

14:59
the first place Rob well you’ve got the
15:02
floor let’s just dive a little deeper
15:03
here on some of the work that you’ve
15:05
done comparing the moral beliefs of
15:06
conservatives and liberals and let’s
15:08
start with this to what extent do you
15:09
think people on the right and the left
15:11
live in different moral worlds yeah I
15:15
think that I think there’s a lot of
15:16
truth in that there’s pretty robust
15:18
finding in the political psychology
literature that liberals tend to endorse
and and deploy moral values like
protecting people from harm
empathy fairness and equality more than
can
servus do while conservatives deploy
moral values like

  1. group loyalty
  2. patriotism
  3. respect for authority and
  4. moral purity and sanctity

more than then
liberals do and we find that you know
when they go to make the case for those
specific political positions liberals
and conservatives tend to rely on these
their their respective moral values but
this can often lead them to make to make
cases for their politics that don’t
resonate with the other side might not
even be legible to someone on the other
side well that’s lorilynn you’re hearing
yeah let me follow up on that no I do I
want to do two quick follow-ups with you
right here because give us a for
instance if a liberal we’re trying to
change a conservatives mind about for
example climate change what would be the
better arguments to Marshall given what
you’ve just told us
yeah our research suggests that a
conservative might be more responsive to
an argument about the environment or
climate change if it was articulated in
terms of purity sanctity and pollutants
being disgusting D sanctifying human
bodies and and nature
that that’s sort
of a message because it fits with the
conservative value of moral purity we
find tends to be more effective than a
more conventional argument that a
liberal would be more likely to make in
terms of the need to protect vulnerable
ecosystems from from harm which doesn’t
tend to move the needle at least among
conservative and let’s do the other side
of the coin what about a conservative
trying to impress upon a liberal the
importance of let’s say military
spending something like that yeah so we
also find that this principle that if
you want to make an effective political
appeal you ought to think very carefully
about the person you’re communicating
with moral values and deeply all beliefs
we find it applies in both directions so
if you were trying to convince a liberal
to support high levels of military
17:32
spending it might not make a lot of
17:34
sense to make an argument in terms of
17:36
patriotism and the authoritative power
17:38
of the American military and instead you
17:41
might think well how could I tie this in
17:43
with liberal concerns about equal
17:45
opportunity and so we found that
17:48
an appeal that emphasized that the
17:50
military is a place where the poor and
17:52
minorities can achieve on a more level
17:55
playing field than in the you know the
17:57
open society that that’s sort of an
18:00
appeal LED liberals to say oh maybe
18:02
maybe I do support high levels of
18:04
military spending because they can it
18:06
helps the poor and minorities advance in
18:08
society hmm this potentially potentially
18:12
Paul opens the door to well who knows
18:16
everybody’s in their respective corners
18:18
right now in the boxing ring that is you
18:20
know the world today and I wonder if the
18:22
arguments could be reframed so that
18:24
people could speak a little could speak
18:27
to conservatives in a language that they
18:28
would appreciate better and vice versa
18:30
could you reduce polarization in the
18:33
world I think you can I think rob has
18:34
some excellent ideas now to do it I also
18:37
think we could we don’t have to give up
18:39
on idea of focusing on our common ground
18:41
so it’s true that conservatives in some
18:43
ways focus much more on groups and
18:45
issues of patriotism and nationalism but
18:48
liberals are no stranger to calls for
18:50
identity and group identity in fact
18:52
identity politics focusing on your
18:54
ethnicity or your gender your sexual
18:56
orientation is very much of an explicit
18:58
focus of a lot of liberal thoughts so in
19:00
some way they’re speaking the same
19:02
language they’re just talking about
19:03
different things and there’s something
19:05
else as well regarding reconciliation
19:08
and agreement which is I think by nature
19:11
by inclination by how we think there’s
19:13
an enormous amount of overlap between
19:14
liberals and conservatives but in the
19:16
hurly-burly political world and social
19:19
media there was a huge split of us
19:21
versus them where all of a sudden being
a liberal I’m not responding to a
certain claim or idea based on how I
naturally react to it but I is it is it
from my team or is it from your team
and
there’s a lot of research finding that
if you give people an idea cap-and-trade
a response to climate change
funding for private schools and you tell
them this is a liberal idea or this is a
conservative idea they react very
differently to it your study after study
finding people don’t even care about the
idea they just care about is it my team
or is it your team
and if we could rid
political discourse of that or at least
diminish it we do
much much better well Becky let’s do an
example of something you’ve studied
fracking tell us the story so I think
that this speaks to Rob suggestion of
how to play to people’s morality and
having this kind of discussion so we
examined people’s favorability towards
hydraulic fracturing and the degree to
which they thought this was risky and we
found that people who are higher in
political conservatism were more
favorable towards hydraulic fracturing
and they saw it as less risky

we also measured knowledge about
fracking and people that knew more about
it had less favorable attitudes
about it
and they thought it’s more risky
however conservatives that knew more
about hydraulic fracturing for them they
had even more favorable attitudes and so
it is even less favorable than
conservatives that didn’t know a lot
about it and you find this same pattern
when you look at climate change so this
kind of goes against this notion that if
we just educate other people and they
know more and they’re more aware of
these issues they’ll get what I think
and they’ll be on board with my attitude
or the way that I see the world
and
that’s not what happens you have another
question yeah do you think I don’t know
if you’ve done this but do you think
21:05
have you told a group of conservatives a
21:07
group of liberals and saying you know
21:09
what do you think of fracking and let me
21:11
tell you this Bernie Sanders Elizabeth
21:13
Warren one thing they agree on is we
21:15
need more fracking of this type it’s
21:17
very important it’s important for their
21:18
environment or to help American business
21:19
to increase minority access to jobs do
21:22
you think being told that would sway
21:24
their views I think it depends on who it
21:26
is so people that don’t know as much
21:28
about politics and don’t have that kind
21:30
of firm identity or just knowledgeable
21:32
for them it could sway them but for
21:33
people that are very knowledgeable at
21:35
these things they understand what
21:36
defines a conservative position and a
21:38
liberal position it’s not going to sway
21:40
them so I think that political identity
21:43
in belonging to these groups is really
21:44
important in dictating our beliefs or
21:46
attitudes how we vote but it’s not the
21:48
only thing and I worry sometimes that we
21:50
overstate it so I think it depends on
21:52
the person and I think it depends on the
21:53
context so in an American context right
21:56
now where the stakes are really high you
21:58
can see how people might be more apt to
22:00
kind of be like okay I can give that up
22:01
right now even it’s important to me
22:03
because I want my team to win but kind
22:05
of under normal circumstances or less
22:07
high threat or high stakes situations it
22:10
shouldn’t have the same kind of impact I
22:12
mean living in a state in the age of
22:13
Trump
22:14
very much in a high polarization time
22:16
there is a study that was recently done
22:18
which ask people about cap and trade
22:19
what do you think of cap and trade and
22:21
people had very strong views about it
22:23
then they asked them another question
22:24
what is cap and trade and I gotta say I
22:31
like I’m not I have found myself
22:32
exposing strong views and realizing I
22:35
don’t know that much I just know what
22:36
views I’m supposed to have yeah I’m
22:38
still waiting for the moment where there
22:39
where the conservative person says wait
22:41
a second Bernie Sanders and Liz Warren
22:43
are in favor of fracking date you don’t
22:45
think anybody would say that they would
22:47
be surprised they would be surprised
22:48
indeed if they were to say that okay
22:50
let’s um yeah
22:52
apropos of my team is better than yours
22:54
let’s go on to this in today’s polarized
world is it simply okay Rob you start
with this is it simply more important
okay for for for people to say I’m with
my team I don’t care I’m not
influenceable by facts I don’t care what
the facts say loyalty to my team is all
what it’s about
nowadays right yeah I
think there’s a lot of evidence for that
and I think that what we see when we
look at trends and polarization in the
US over the last 40 years or so and this
is in the general public mind you that
you don’t see as much of ideological
polarization wherein people are clumping
around coherent ideological worldviews
because people are kind of they’re a
little bit disorganized in in their
thoughts they don’t spend all their time
thinking and talking about politics and
those who do they are very ideological
on average but what we see very clearly
is this rising antipathy across party
lines where Democrats and Republicans
you know increasingly dislike the
political out group and favor their own
in-group over the last 40 years or so
and if you look for like well what what
sparked all this I think that the
biggest thing that sparked it was that
at the elite level elected politicians
Congress people the president and so on
they polarized first they separated
along party lines and became
ideologically distinct you know by the
80s
or so in a way that was not so much
24:26
the case in the 50s and
24:27
once that happened it became easier to
24:30
say okay no I really am a Democrat
24:32
because I’m a liberal and I really am
24:34
not like those other people and in fact
24:37
I really dislike them but when things
24:39
were a little more mixed up in terms of
24:41
what Democrats Republicans believed as
24:43
was the case in the 50s it was harder to
24:46
hate the other side cuz they were not so
24:47
clearly different from from your own
24:50
Becky let me let me pursue with you the
24:53
notion about whether or not we are less
24:54
polarized in Canada than they are in the
24:56
United States basically everybody who
24:59
gets elected down there is a Democrat or
25:00
a Republican basically I mean you got a
25:02
few independents along the way but
25:03
basically that’s it we just had an
25:05
election which is going to send liberals
25:06
and conservatives and New Democrats and
25:10
block East’s and greens to our federal
25:14
parliament and the People’s Party even
25:16
they didn’t win any seats but they got a
25:17
bunch of votes what does that say I
25:19
think there’s several things that are
25:21
going on I think we’re not immune to the
25:24
kind of quote/unquote tribalism that’s
25:26
happening south of the border but I
25:28
think that we have some buffers in the
25:30
sense that we have a multi-party system
25:31
now if any one of those parties should
25:34
gain more popularity to kind of lose
25:37
some of those I think we would be in
25:39
greater danger of having this kind of us
25:41
versus them mentality and I think that
25:42
still exists here but it’s difficult to
25:44
have that to the same extreme because we
25:46
have more than one party so there’s
25:48
multiple people kind of vying for power
25:50
how accurate do you think the view that
25:53
conservatives have of liberals and vice
25:55
versa
25:56
all is yeah there’s been a lot of work
25:59
on this and and there are two things one
26:01
thing is that psychologists are always
26:03
interesting everybody’s interested in
26:05
bias against against women against black
26:08
people against gays and their subtle
26:09
measures of this but the bias is we have
26:12
at least in the states towards the other
26:13
political team are anything but subtle
26:16
they’re powerful people to say if you’re
26:19
a Republican I don’t want to see a
26:20
Democrat I don’t want my kid to marry a
26:21
Democrat and then you get to kick the
26:23
question of accuracy so when you ask
26:25
people about other groups let me ask you
26:27
some questions about about gay people
26:28
about women it turns out a lot of
26:31
studies have been done showing that to
26:32
bet people have a pretty good perception
26:34
of the other group what jobs they tend
26:37
to have all sorts of other factors about
26:39
them but this goes to garbage
26:41
when you ask people politics so Liberals
26:44
have very confused ideas about
26:46
conservatives and conservatives very
26:48
confused ideas about liberals and what
26:50
happens is that this sort of tribalism
26:52
we’re talking about distorts our
26:54
thinking if you’re my worst enemy in the
26:56
world I’m not gonna think about you in
26:58
an objective fashion I’m gonna pile upon
27:00
you every stupid and ugly attitude and
27:03
and and you know if if if not it’s not
27:06
hard to see that this is not a good
27:08
thing politically and maybe this is why
27:09
Canadian politics which doesn’t have too
27:12
strict you know either-or dichotomy that
27:14
American politics has is less vicious
27:17
than American politics so a lot less
27:20
interesting too the last time you were
27:21
on this program and in fact I can see
27:23
your book on the Shelf right over there
27:24
we talked about your book about empathy
27:27
and so I’m going to facetiously say to
27:29
you right now because I know what your
27:30
answer is gonna be more empathy would
27:32
help this right well I’m not gonna say
27:34
yes come on I’m sighs you to say yes I’m
27:37
sure will surprise me which is it
27:39
depends what you mean by empathy so so
27:41
one sort of empathy which means feeling
27:43
the pain of others feeling the suffering
27:45
of others a study came out last week
27:47
which is causing a lot of play which
27:49
finds that the more empathy you have of
27:51
that sort the the more you hate the
27:53
other group why because you devote all
27:56
that feeling and empathy towards your
27:58
own group it makes you more tribal on
28:00
the other hand there’s another sort of
28:03
empathy which the most understanding
28:04
people perspective taking and I think
28:07
that is mostly for the good I think that
28:09
that you know if I if I was I was a
28:12
Hillary voter I don’t need to put myself
28:15
in the shoes of a trump voter but I
28:17
should try to understand why they voted
28:18
for Trump among other things if I want
28:21
my side to win the next time it sure
28:23
helps to know why why I didn’t win last
28:26
time just a few minutes to go here and
28:28
let me get Jonathan Hyde into this
28:30
conversation and the social psychologist
28:32
recently had this to say left and right
28:34
are like yin and yang both see different
28:37
threats push in different directions and
28:39
protect different things that matter and
28:42
that are at risk of getting trampled by
28:44
the other side okay bigger picture here
28:47
do liberals and conservatives need each
28:49
other in some way less their own
28:51
impulses turn inward and destructive
28:54
back
28:55
so I’d say on a macro level that is
28:57
probably beneficial to have a diverse
28:59
pool of ideological outlooks
29:01
I think anything in the extreme could
29:03
kind of lead us down a dangerous path
29:05
and I think there’s many examples of
29:07
very extreme right-wing or left-wing
29:09
governments around the world the kind of
29:10
plate of that to illustrate kind of the
29:12
dangers I think having a sort of push
29:14
each other back and forth and keep us in
29:15
check again on a macro level is probably
29:18
beneficial on the whole Rob I disagree
29:20
with everything you say but damn it all
29:21
I need you is that what we’re saying i I
29:24
you know I think there’s a lot of truth
29:26
in that I think ideological diversity
29:28
can help groups make better I’d you know
29:31
better decisions and come up with more
29:33
different possibly better ideas I also
29:36
think that an ideologically pluralistic
29:38
society is a difficult one to steer
29:42
effectively because it’s disposed to
29:45
creating these sort of tribal
29:47
differences
29:48
so if I have deeply different views on
29:50
things that matter a lot from you in an
29:53
ideal world we get together we you know
29:55
we come up with a way to get all the
29:57
advantages out of that and none of the
29:58
weaknesses but I think there is also a
30:01
very strong tendency for us to decide
30:02
that we are fundamentally different and
30:04
our differences are irreconcilable
30:06
because they go all the way down to our
30:08
bones to our values and so I have a
30:11
little bit less of a rosy picture of
30:13
moral pluralism Paul last thirty Seconds
30:16
to you we know that when political
30:17
parties want to raise money all they do
30:19
is put every alleged sin of their
30:22
opponents in those letters and they just
30:24
watch the shekels come in we’re kind of
30:26
doomed in this regard aren’t we we have
30:29
our worst instincts and people there’s a
30:31
lot of money and votes and power in
30:33
exaggerating the differences that exist
30:36
between these groups but I I agree with
30:38
with these other guys on pluralism is
30:40
what we should we just aspire for as
30:42
voters and as individuals authoritarians
30:45
on both sides will try to shut that down
30:46
they’ll try to shut down free speech
30:47
they’ll try to shut down communication
30:49
and I think we have a sort of moral duty
30:51
liberals and conservatives both to to
30:54
try to listen and try to try to get
30:56
together and try to be pluralistic in
30:57
the best of all possible ways amen
30:59
that’s a great place to leave it I want
31:01
to thank all three of you for coming out
31:02
of TVO tonight Rob will are at Stanford
31:04
University in California
31:06
Becky Toma from Ryerson University
31:08
in toronto Paul bloom from Yale
31:10
University in New Haven Connecticut it’s
31:13
great to have all of you on TV Oh
31:14
tonight thanks so much thank you
31:19
the agenda with Steve Paikin is brought
31:21
to you by the chartered professional
31:22
accountants of Ontario CPA Ontario is a
31:25
regulator an educator a thought leader
31:28
and an advocate we protect the public we
31:31
advance our profession we guide our CPAs
31:34
we are CPA Ontario and by viewers like
31:38
you
31:38
thank you

Joe Rogan Experience #1084 – Douglas Murray

Douglas Murray, author of “The Strange Death of Europe” which is out now, is an author, journalist, and political commentator. He is the founder of the Centre for Social Cohesion and is the associate director of the Henry Jackson Society and associate editor of The Spectator, a British magazine discussing culture and politics.

49:13
I was in discussion with a modern cleric
who’s a sort of reformist figure and
Meyer in some ways who in a discussion
about something said well you know also
Mohammed Prophet Muhammad peace be upon
him was was he took criticism in his
early he took criticism very very well
he never minded people criticizing him I
like that’s absolute crap that is real
crap I mean whatever else you say he
Muhammad not really good on this on the
criticism of himself
bit and I gave an example of a female
poet s who he had killed because she
criticized him
and this guy went
absolutely apeshit and refused to
continue and so on and because you gave
an actual because I gave historical
example from his own religious texts and
and in the end it was a pre-recording
day and the end the BBC were like it was
can you find another way of trying to
make the same point and you know and
that was what we had to do I mean I mean
another way of making the same point yet
rather than pointing out the historical
exact same that showed that Muhammad did
have a female poet killed yes you just
what other way would there be to make
that point that is hard but that’s the
ultimate way to make that
exactly which is by pointing to the
texts and the facts but you know I can
think of no other situation in which
somebody has veto rights like that yeah
in a normal discussion and it’s because
they were terrified of the retaliation
yes I mean I knew everyone in the
production box was like oh no what’s
Douglass done so how can we stop it
affecting us
what was his clerics response to that he
yeah he just he went yeah they’re a bit
nuts and wouldn’t continue unless I you
know wouldn’t say that
and so what did he deny that it was in
the tent oh yeah yeah I said I was
making it up and has a liar

I’m used to that but that that’s a crazy
thing for him to say when someone can
just read the text yeah but they have
they’re banking on nobody doing that
well no this day and age don’t bank on
that yeah this is this is one the
releasing things isn’t it because
although it’s true you can like suppress
a lot of this
you know we do live in an
age when basically anyone can google and
find texts
and they can destroy a time
did a billion people of read I’m not
sure they’ve read it but yeah well
possess it they don’t know how many
people you think read it how many really
think read the Bible like if you had a
like gasps there are number of
Christians in this country there are
those tests on that they’d sometimes to
the human society invaded a few years
ago asking very basic questions and self
professed Christians about their
knowledge of the texts and very few my
52:03
favorite is self professed Christians
52:05
with religious tattoos like hey man you
52:08
got to read the whole book like you are
52:12
literally showing on your skin right
52:15
that you didn’t read the whole book
52:16
didn’t pay attention don’t do that yeah
52:20
this is Leviticus is in Leviticus that’s
52:23
got the implications against writing
52:25
like you know if you read a little bitty
52:28
there’s a heck of a lot you can’t do if
52:29
you if you go down where are two pieces
52:32
of different cloth yes exactly
52:35
yeah Leviticus is a wonderful book it’s
52:37
going it’s very good for the mohair what
52:39
Leviticus wasn’t the one which was the
52:42
book where the guy called upon the
52:45
she-bear to kill
52:46
children who were mocking his baldness
52:49
do you know about that one my favorite
52:52
special on bald guy this guy was getting
52:56
mocked by children fucking kids and God
53:00
called upon a she-bear to come down and
53:04
tear apart these children who were
53:06
making fun of his bald head here uh-ohhh
53:09
lash and the two bear two kings yeah
53:13
look at that Wow
53:14
went up to pass if you were going to
53:17
intervene in human affairs for anything
53:18
this would be the time that’s got a step
53:20
in Jung kid young kids came out from the
53:27
city and mocked him and said to him go
53:29
up you bald head go up you bald head
53:32
which is very mild and when he looked
53:35
behind him and saw them he cursed them
53:38
in the name of the Lord all caps then
53:41
two female bears came out of the woods
53:43
and tore up 42 lads of their number and
53:47
he went from there to Mount Carmel it’s
53:49
like you know deal it’s over got it done
53:52
and that’s that’s yeah that’s my
53:55
favorite reading from Scripture was the
53:57
one at the end of one of the books that
53:59
come which one it was I was a chorus
54:01
when I was young I always made me laugh
54:03
there was a this did the destruction of
54:05
the city of Nineveh it really in it
54:07
finish is I think not any faces chapter
54:09
of the whole book it says you know and
54:10
and lo in that in that city were forty
54:14
thousand human souls that were destroyed
54:16
and had also some cattle cattle just by
54:22
disassociation some cattle bad cows
54:25
there are bad cows some of those cows
54:28
too but no the rather bald-headed one
54:31
that’s very that’s that’s a yeah that’s
54:34
a heck of a time to you know to tread
54:35
into human descent even an insult you
54:37
know all dead no your bald head is just
54:39
an accurate description the I mean that
54:41
is not an insult
54:42
if you like you ugly sloppy bald-headed
54:47
loser okay yeah then maybe God need to
54:49
step in and see some wolves to attack
54:51
you and vitamin D specify that they’re
54:55
female yeah yeah why is it female 32
54:58
number yeah 42 kids two bears for those
55:02
of subhead those are some bitch-ass kids
55:04
need to learn how to run that doesn’t
55:06
even make sense how the fuck those bears
55:07
even catch all 42 of those kids what
55:09
kind of kids are they raising over there
55:10
in Bethel they’re well they’re all
55:17
sitting around waiting their turn yeah I
55:18
mean trying out cuss words til one
55:21
causes the Bears to calm down you shaggy
55:26
bear that didn’t work you Shaggy’s mangy
55:29
dirty stinky bear head yeah there’s so
55:35
many of those stories that are so
55:36
strange but I’ve been I bet I bet that
55:38
that most if we were to go to the the
55:41
people who say that their questions in
55:43
the polls and ask him about we don’t
55:45
even need to go the baldhead bear right
55:47
I’ll catch them it is they don’t except
55:49
though most people don’t even bother
55:50
reading that cuz it’s just it’s almost
55:52
too crazy yeah but but but yeah the very
55:56
very little knowledge even about very
55:57
basic things you know even Commandments
56:02
and so on all right so that’s the case
56:04
with the religion that America and
56:06
Britain is known best with Christianity
56:08
so there’s no reason to assume that
56:09
that’s not the case with Islam as well
56:11
isn’t that just the case with people I
56:12
mean it seems to be the same thing that
56:13
we’re talking about with headlines
56:15
someone reads the headlines they don’t
56:16
bother reading into it and then they
56:17
accuse someone or something it’s almost
56:19
like with religion I’m a Christian and
56:21
I’m a Christian man oh really
56:22
please tell me about the Bible right
56:26
it’s um there’s something better I’ve
56:29
often thought this is one of the reasons
56:31
why there’s it’s possible to get a
56:33
certain fanaticism going within Muslim
56:35
communities on some issues to do with
mass for me is I think is to do with a
realization of this you said that this
was the case about our prophet I didn’t
know
there I he did what I had this all
my life with with arguing with Muslims
about things the they very rarely know
for the problems in their own tradition

and when you bring them up what he did
what like the Christians with the bald
ben and and this causes a really serious
problem for them because they are told
from the cradle that that they are
following a religion founded by the most
perfect man imaginable and if you
discover
that if you it’s like you know
no there’s no description of Helen of
Troy
in the ancient texts why does nobody
escribe Helen of Troy why didn’t nobody
say did you know she was a sort of this
beautiful blonde ringlets order it’s
because it actually catches on as a
theme because everyone makes Helen of
Troy their most beautiful woman if you
57:44
start to describe you me like I’m not
57:45
into redheads everyone would Helen of
57:51
Troy becomes a person upon you whom you
57:53
put all of those things and in the same
57:56
way Mohammed becomes if you say is the
57:58
perfect human being the people will just
58:00
throughout their lives put the kind of
58:01
things they think are perfect on to
58:03
Mohammed you must be very kind very
58:04
generous very caregiving and so on
58:06
so that if you then say well what about
58:09
when he then did this I think it just
58:12
causes an extra hurt this is something
58:15
they’ll have to get over of course
58:17
because I mean we can’t go away and not
58:20
rather identify these for these issues
58:22
but it causes in the short term an
58:25
enormous enormous pain I have a an
58:27
example I gave recently in a book of
58:29
them somebody I spent some time with
58:31
couple years ago an extraordinary man
58:33
called Morten storm he was a Danish
58:37
bikers a big in a biker gang and
58:40
in Denmark went to prison and in prison
58:43
about 2000 or so he converted not just
58:46
to Islam he converted to al-qaeda
58:48
basically he’s not a not a common person
58:50
in any way and he ended up being the
58:55
main go-to person for so our Lackey was
58:58
a head of al-qaeda in Yemen and in fact
59:01
was asked to give him up get a wife our
59:03
Lackey to supplement his wife collection
59:05
and a Morten storm a lot of things ended
59:09
up falling out with al Qaeda and ended
59:11
up working for the CIA and Danish
59:12
intelligence and ended up helping lead
59:14
them to our Lackey who was then droned
59:16
by Obama in 2011 or so anyhow I once
59:20
said to MotorStorm what was the moment
59:23
that made you get out of al-qaeda and he
59:27
has such a fascinating answer he because
59:28
he came out of al-qaeda and Islam at the
59:31
same moment he says what was happening
was he was sitting in his he was waiting
for a package when I’ll kind of drop off
to get then from him to our Lackey and
the the person carrying the package was
late and then really late and he was
sitting in his apartment somewhere in
Germany I think at that point and he was
so pissed off about this and he had a
laptop that was there on the table and
he thought basically how can i express
my pissed-off Ness with my al-qaeda
colleagues for wasting my time like this
so much and he went to Google and he
typed in contradictions in Islam and
began to read that was how he got out

Wow that’s what did him in some just
late he just started reading again they
told me this they never told me that I
never knew that
and that was so as I say
he’s a very very uncommon but but I
think that might be happening quite a
lot more than we know people just
googling things finding stuff out for
ourselves it’s the most dangerous
religion to leave because they kill
apostates they do yeah so what’s how is
he dealing with that well he lives in
hiding I mean wow
60:50
yeah yeah fancy may he read a book agent
60:54
storm two years ago one of the weirdest
60:59
conversation that I ever saw anybody
61:01
have with someone who was a believer was
61:04
Dawkins I think it was yeah was having a
61:08
conversation with someone in the asked
61:09
him point-blank whether or not he
61:10
believed that Mohammed split the moon oh
61:13
yes I think I know this was with a very
61:17
close enemy of mine called Mehdi Hassan
61:18
who worked for Al Jazeera and who
61:21
Richard Dawkins did a interview with and
61:23
I think he that’s why he fluffed
61:26
something earlier on Dork is he didn’t
61:29
take him on then he took him on on this
61:31
that’s wrong and I think that Sam said
61:34
yes yes yes and then it led to this
61:37
terrible problem which is a really
61:38
interesting interesting problem of our
61:40
era which is then dorking said I can’t
61:43
believe that somebody or said afterwards
61:44
I can’t believe that somebody could be a
61:45
working journalist and believe that you
61:47
know Mohammed Sloot a meal and a half
61:49
human horse right and of course I mean I
61:54
there’s a interesting point there yeah
61:57
but of course we do quite rightly allow
61:59
people to believe bizarre and insane
62:02
thing well sure exactly and if we
62:06
started saying you can’t have public
62:07
office of working journalism if you
62:08
profess to be of this particular faith
62:11
then we wouldn’t get any way we wouldn’t
62:12
have anyone left and how does the story
62:14
go Mohammed flew to the moon on a half
62:16
human horse yeah and split the moon with
62:18
a sword as I would yeah I counted they
62:20
could have then been attacked by female
62:23
bears but I can’t no I can’t
62:25
yes he it’s the night journey which is
62:28
central and how the moon get glued back
62:30
together again
62:31
is it back together it looks like it is
62:34
I haven’t looked close maybe I need to
62:37
pay more attention it’s just the the
62:41
fact that a per mile I believe this was
62:43
a few years ago let’s just say it was
62:45
2010 that this interview or that this
62:47
debate took place yes he was around then
62:50
eight years ago that someone would be
62:52
comfortable saying oh that they believe
62:55
that oh you see I got into a little
62:56
trouble Richard Dawkins got a bit
62:58
annoyed about me because I took the
63:01
mickey out of him for dodging the one
63:02
earlier in that what was the earlier one
63:04
he a great admirer of it as everyone is
63:09
sure but he he knows exactly where the
63:14
cliff edge is hmm and in that interview
63:17
he he was asked on al-jazeera by this
63:21
interviewer he read out the bit from The
63:25
God Delusion about you know as a great
63:27
bit of rhetoric about the most the God
63:30
who smokes God is something like the
63:31
most appalling narcissistic murderous
63:34
blob of our character in all of fiction
63:36
is a terrific piece of writing and the
63:39
interviewer says the Dawkins do you do
63:42
you stand by that as a description of
63:44
the Christian God Dawkins says yes this
63:46
is you stand by it does the description
63:48
of the Jewish God says yes and then he
63:49
says and would you say the same thing
63:50
about the Muslim God and I just knew
63:54
exactly what’s happening at Richard
63:55
Dawkins says um about the Muslim God I
63:58
didn’t know so much which he as I say he
64:02
thinks I shouldn’t rip him on this and
64:05
the thing was what I noticed was just I
64:07
just I know I completely felt he’s been
64:09
a very brave and brilliant writer and
64:12
thinker on these matters and nobody’s
64:13
done more in some ways but he I knew
64:17
exactly what was happening he was
64:19
staring right over the cliff edge and
64:20
somebody was behind him nudging yeah and
64:24
that if he had have said as it were live
64:27
on al Jazeera oh yes
64:29
Allah you know the total bastard then I
64:34
don’t know maybe yes maybe you’re then
64:38
in real trouble you know and so he
64:41
stepped back from the brink there and I
64:42
rather crudely perhaps took the mickey
64:44
out of him afters for it I said that it
64:46
was just that Richard Dawkins was
64:48
demonstrating a survival instinct of his
64:50
species but I I feel bad about it but it
64:54
is true it is true but we’ve all been
64:56
there to some extent and what was his
64:58
response to that though to my general
65:02
criticism he well he basically I think
65:07
he did take it on board in a way
65:10
so complex reasons but I know I know he
65:15
was also annoyed that I was where I
65:16
think he felt that I was doing that to
65:18
him then you do it right right and that
65:23
is very common in that I’ve had that a
65:25
lot in my life of in this particular
65:28
area of people trying to egg me over why
65:31
don’t you say that
65:32
mmm of course and and you know that
65:36
they’re the people who’ll be a million
65:38
miles behind me oh yeah they would their
65:40
ears plugged yeah I behind a wall I was
65:43
a very I was a very very visual aid of
65:45
it somebody who etches is a terrific
65:47
reformer in Islam that now and another
65:51
cleric who once described me he went to
65:53
fight for the Mujahideen in Afghanistan
65:54
and you know 30 years ago now and
65:57
described to me he’s not very fighting
65:59
li-like person but described how he did
66:01
actually sort of really rile them up to
66:02
sort of run over and get at the Soviets
66:04
and he’s like you know we’re all agreed
66:06
yes we’ll go yes and I go and he guys
66:13
guys and everyone else stayed in the
66:15
trench and I’ve always thought this is
66:17
exactly the experience of anyone in this
66:21
area what grabbed eyes is that there’s
66:23
inherent danger and this criticism even
66:25
that’s the discussion right now I’m sure
66:27
that people right now firing up their
66:29
webcams and writing blogs and tweeting
66:32
and getting upset about it yeah it’s any
66:35
rational discussion of that particular
66:37
subject you could kind of get away I
66:40
mean I get criticism from Christians but
66:44
it’s not scary right yes that is um
66:48
that’s that is a big difference of the
66:50
timing isn’t it right this is this is
66:52
something it’s just so important about
66:54
the new ones that almost never gets
66:56
added in but of course we all just
66:57
assumed it so we don’t think it’s worth
66:59
saying but we are aware that any
67:00
religion or thought like this could be
67:03
this dangerous at different phases yes
67:06
you know we might under wanted to be in
67:09
Spain in certain points in the last
67:12
millennium sure we might not have wanted
67:16
to be a Catholic descent to at certain
67:17
points or Protestant dissenters others
67:19
and so on and so forth we all know that
67:20
yes it’s just that at the moment that’s
67:23
pretty question
67:24
and and quiet and of course it’s less
67:27
quiet here than it is in my country one
67:30
can’t imagine the Anglican Church
67:31
becoming militant about anything at any
67:33
point soon you do have some angrier
67:37
types of Christian here than we have in
67:38
my country so it’s easy for me to think
67:40
they’re slightly less risky at some
67:44
point in the future than than you might
67:46
but but it’s just that we do recognize
67:48
this could happen elsewhere as well it’s
67:50
just at the moment it’s it’s it’s not
67:51
the Quakers they they really don’t send
67:57
me a death threat from one year to the
67:58
next right rather nice people there’s an
68:02
inherent danger of a retaliation from
68:06
people who are more radical Christian
68:10
that if this continues and if you see it
68:13
more and more of more and more attacks
68:16
from people of Muslim faith yes you
68:18
could possibly see a retaliation from
68:21
people especially in this country like
68:23
after 9/11 there was an extreme amount
68:26
of hate for Muslims and irrational hate
68:30
mostly which nothing directed at Sikhs
68:33
yes well there was a lot of that out of
68:35
ignorance they just didn’t they didn’t I
68:37
mean that was the most disturbing
68:39
because Sikhs are pretty interesting
68:41
people and the fact that they just
68:45
instantaneously with no information at
68:48
all no understanding out of complete
68:50
ignorance yeah attack them I I have a I
68:54
second no one in my gloominess about
68:56
some of the things that we’re going to
68:57
go through in Britain and Europe and
68:58
their coming years but I recently had a
69:02
reason to even more gloomy about one
69:04
aspect of it relating to this which is
69:05
this we had three big bad terrorist
69:10
attacks last year in the UK including
69:13
the Manchester Arena bomb 22 young
69:15
people were blown up on a Monday night
69:17
for going to hear ariana grande and
69:22
after the third of those attacks which
69:25
was on London Bridge went three people
69:28
who actually known the authorities as
69:30
they generally are slashed people’s
69:33
throats on the street and ran to borough
69:35
market as people were drinking and
69:36
stabbed people while shouting this is
69:39
for Allah after the third of those
69:41
attacks it was a fella is this really
69:45
just gonna keep happening what are we
69:48
gonna do about it and what can we do and
69:50
after the Manchester one in particular
69:51
there was this kind of thing of everyone
69:54
saying apart John Lennon’s Imagine there
69:56
was this hit don’t Lee don’t look back
69:58
in anger and these themes that say we
70:01
weren’t meant to think anything other
70:02
than that we weren’t meant to be angry
70:03
enemy and then then just terrible thing
70:09
happened from another direction
70:12
outside Finsbury Park mosque which the
70:15
muscular very troubled and bad history
70:18
in London a guy from Wales in a van
70:22
drives into the crowds as they’re
70:25
milling around outside the mosque kills
70:28
one man and injures a number of others
70:32
that guy by the way just show how
70:34
complex all this can get is he was tried
70:38
and guilty last month in the courts in
70:41
the UK he he had been his office he very
70:45
mentally deranged and had a history of
70:47
mental illness and all that sort of
70:48
thing as very often people do in these
70:50
situations but he he had watched the BBC
70:54
drama called three girls which is the
70:56
first time the BBC had really addressed
70:59
the issue of the Rotherham
71:01
Rochdale rape gangs that happened in the
71:04
last decade in the UK which is still a
71:05
saw that’s going on where about 1,500
71:07
girls in one town alone were basically
71:10
abused by gangs of Muslim mainly
71:15
Pakistani men and it’s a very very ugly
71:18
business partly because it was so awful
71:21
that nobody there that nobody at the
71:22
State at the police level and the arts
71:24
wanted to look into it and they are now
71:26
in the governing choir so they they
71:28
didn’t be looking to excel worried about
71:30
being called racist and there’s a Lama
71:31
phobic and so on the press did a lot of
71:33
not being interested in this as well
71:35
eventually after all these years the BBC
71:38
makes a documentary called three girls
71:40
about three of the girls who suffered
71:42
from these rape gangs and then a man in
71:45
Wales sees it and gets so enraged people
71:48
say at the local pub he was railing
71:49
against the bloody
71:50
limbs and all this sort of thing and
71:51
then he hires a van and drives in to
71:53
have a crowd of people outside a mask
71:55
and you have this awful feeling that the
72:00
BBC didn’t want to deal with the issue
72:02
that the program was about for years
72:04
because it was so awful and ugly and
72:08
sounded like something made up by some
72:10
kind of nativist racist you know it’s
72:12
had everything and then they do and then
72:17
it turns out remember the public sees it
72:19
and drives a van into a crowd yeah I
72:20
mean you know this this sort of couldn’t
72:23
get more complex and wait so and I
72:25
thought after that okay maybe maybe the
72:27
maybe the BBC were right maybe they
72:30
shouldn’t maybe they should cover up the
72:32
gang rape for 1500 girls maybe the
72:35
public can’t cope with it maybe they
72:37
will get into vans now as it happens I
72:39
know the British public I think fairly
72:41
well and I think that that guy in well
72:44
is a very very unusual figure I don’t
72:46
think it’s very common I don’t think
72:47
everyone’s going to do that I don’t
72:48
think we’re all like that wicked
72:50
Madeleine but I don’t know I mean I
72:54
don’t know for sure everywhere I don’t
72:56
know what the I don’t know what happened
72:58
in this country with various other
72:59
countries if there were three attacks
73:00
like that in quick succession I don’t
73:02
know but this is this is really it is
73:07
going to get complex it’s already
73:09
complex and the response to it’s complex
73:12
to how do you how do you if you if you
73:16
are a journalist if you are television
73:20
channel how do you report on this do you
73:22
think about the responsibility of
73:24
alerting someone to these actual real
73:27
atrocities that’s going to force them to
73:28
react on innocent people that did
73:30
nothing in front of this mosque that the
73:32
fact that these people in this mosque or
73:34
somehow or another connected to these
73:36
people that did these horrible crimes
73:37
just by virtue of the fact they’re in
73:38
the same religion that’s insane – yeah
73:41
it’s all insane I mean it seems to me
73:43
the only the only way through it is to
73:45
say first of all I mean I don’t I I
73:48
really American press all the time I
73:49
think that it’s it’s worse than the
73:50
British press in in in that
73:53
self-appointed role of believing its
73:54
task is to stand between the public and
73:57
the facts you know and sort of negotiate
73:59
between the to see what they think the
74:01
public can cope with or shouldn’t know
74:03
and
74:03
and feed them that the American press
74:07
seems to me to be rife with that that
74:09
temptation as ours is but it seems to be
74:12
the only way around this is to not not
74:14
give in to that and to try just to
74:16
publish the facts when they happen
74:18
because it’s just obviously seems to be
74:20
much work we always know in political
74:22
scandal what’s worst to cover up it’s
74:25
always the cover-up right and that that
74:27
may be the case with all this maybe
74:28
maybe the the argument for just the
74:31
papers explaining stuff that’s happened
74:33
is maybe that’s maybe that’s all they
74:38
can do and that it I could just say to
74:41
them it’d be a lot worse if you bottle
74:44
this up because otherwise people will
74:47
get the idea that there is some
74:48
conspiracy to cover over certain stories
74:51
and and they’ll be on to something in
74:53
fact if you think about the millions of
74:55
people that must have seen that the
74:57
story on the rape of fifteen hundred the
75:01
fact that only one person responded that
75:03
way right it’s a pretty extraordinary in
75:05
and of itself yes yes III would have and
75:07
I would have thought on some of this I
75:09
mean you know I don’t know again I mean
75:11
there are there are lots of examples one
75:14
could use but when something bad happens
75:17
like the Manchester Arena attack I’m
75:21
amazed in a way that people are so
75:23
decent I mean I’m so pleased they are
75:26
but they we really we don’t go out
75:29
looking for people to attack you know
75:31
that the public certainly Britain I can
75:33
that happy saying I think it’s a
75:34
monomeric the public we’re not really
75:36
lynch mobs waiting to be got going again
75:39
but the expectation that we are is the
75:42
only possibility of creating us in such
75:45
a way it’s only by treating us as if we
75:49
can’t deal with ugly things that go on
75:52
that you could see the situations where
75:55
you’ve again to see the situation in
75:56
which that all goes wrong in that
75:57
different way yeah I mean I don’t envy
76:03
their position especially trying to pick
76:05
up the ball from here yes with all the
76:08
history and all the terrible things
76:10
especially in England with so many
76:12
attacks over such a relatively short
76:14
period of time where there was a very
76:16
small hist
76:17
before yeah it seemed like this
76:19
immediate eruption of all these issues
76:21
yes and I mean the country in some ways
76:24
I wrote about my latest but most is
76:26
France where yes you the book comes out
76:29
in translation there in a couple of
76:30
months time very interested to see what
76:32
happens because France had of even I
76:36
mean we mention Charlie I’ve David that
76:38
eighteen months or so it had was just I
76:40
mean again we’d all sort of disappears
76:43
now every day’s got bad news of some
76:44
kind but you know to have a major
76:48
Western capital city with 130 people
76:50
killed in an evening with multiple
76:52
suicide bombings and people being gunned
76:54
down from mopeds as they’re sitting
76:56
outside a bar and you know another group
77:00
of people going into a rock concert and
77:02
and you know going through the disabled
77:04
section shooting everyone one by one in
77:06
the disabled section and gunning
77:07
everyone else down and catch him in the
77:09
lavatories and shooting him in there I
77:11
mean that that happened in one night
77:14
alone in Paris the Parisians didn’t
77:17
become you know they didn’t become
77:20
wicked terrible people anything but they
77:22
have I think these I think that the a
77:25
lot of these terrible events have
77:27
happened
77:27
they actually what happens is they sink
77:30
down to a lower level of our
77:32
consciousness so that we what actually
77:35
happens is we we we get over the
77:37
immediate thing quite fast but that
77:40
something that the foundational level
77:42
changes I had a case nobody really
77:44
wanted to linger on but there was one in
77:46
in November in the UK on Oxford Street
where because of course everyone does
after these attacks they always say you
know we will not be changed everyone
tries to sort of channel the spirit of
Churchill and all that sort of thing I
in Churchill hear me roar and and so on
and and actually the the facts are
otherwise in November on Oxford Street
there was a wall we know is that there
were two men who may have had some
disagreement on the platform of a tube
Trevor tube platform whatever happened
it was misunderstood by crowds and it
developed into a stampede out of the
tube station then all the way down
Oxford Street people were locked and
barricaded into the big department
78:26
stores a pop singer got Olly Murs
78:30
tweeted out his
78:31
million followers you know there are
78:33
shots of being fired I’m in the back
78:35
room of the store H&M; and there’s
78:37
something and other people claim that a
78:39
truck had gone down Oxford and mowing
78:42
people down they’ve seen bodies the
78:44
police said it was a major terrorist
78:45
event they were on top of an and the the
78:48
press were all you know running stories
78:50
turned out nothing happened nothing
78:53
happened the next day two men handed
78:55
themselves into a local police station
78:56
saying they thought they might have been
78:58
responsible for it but they were let off
78:59
without any charge what I’m saying is
79:02
they thought they might have been
79:03
responsible for it because they had been
79:04
in an argument that they’d had an
79:06
argument maybe they were they they won’t
79:07
say we’re responsible healthy but like
79:08
they were asking for information and
79:11
they will let go but my point is is that
79:14
is that we can simultaneously say we
79:18
will not be cowed and also actually be
79:21
at the stage where if you just hear a
79:23
bang yeah everyone goes running you you
79:26
don’t want to be the last person to
79:28
figure out what’s going on so as soon as
79:31
something you think is happening people
79:34
in this day and age when there’s just
79:35
this recent history of horrible things
79:38
happening over and over again in Orlando
79:40
here I mean there’s just so many of them
79:42
just instantaneously want to react and
79:46
then like in the Vegas shooting one of
79:48
the things that was very confusing about
79:50
the big Vegas shooting is people would
79:52
go into casinos they would flee from the
79:55
concert into casinos and then talk about
79:56
a shooter and then people would say
79:59
there’s an active shooter at Tropicana
80:01
there’s an advocate always happens
80:02
there’s always that’s why I never
80:04
believe immediate aftermath there’s
80:05
always a claim of other shooters there’s
80:07
always a claim of something that turns
80:08
out not everywhere they were there were
80:10
claiming their shooters all over the
80:12
city but there was no actual shooting in
80:14
these other casinos who was just reports
80:16
of active shooters that’s and by the way
80:20
if you’re interested I there’s a
80:23
fascinating thing about why this happens
80:25
and I wrote a book some years ago about
80:28
Bloody Sunday a terrible event in
80:30
Northern Ireland in 1972 and one of the
80:33
things I went through all the tests many
80:35
of everyone who one of the most
80:36
interesting things was the number of
80:38
people whose memories were just totally
80:40
different from what we know
happened and you know one of the
conclusions I came to was that there’s a
book by a Harvard professor but they
called the seven sins of memory about
this but one of the things that clearly
happens is after any very traumatic
event or very terrible event where
people are effectively in the situation
of a war zone when they were just
shopping or a concert a moment before is
that our memories immediately become
even more suggestible than they are
already and the most obvious thing of
suggestibility in these situations is
that the situation was was worse around
you and you came off better than you did
and that’s almost always the case the
shots that were quite quite a bit away
were very close you you you have to your
memory without knowing it we all do it
our memory tells us we behave better
than we did and that the threat was
worse because this is our over one of
our ways of coping I think mm-hmm
but but it’s a terrible thing obviously
with the I mean with these school
81:46
shootings and things that are going on
81:48
here at the moment I mean this is
81:49
obviously one of the things I watched
81:52
your podcasts the other day where you
81:53
were discussing this for the latest one
81:54
with the Florida and and I think you
81:58
know in a way bafflement
82:00
going on in this society about this is
82:02
understandable yeah the I mean it’s the
82:06
unimaginable horror of being involved in
82:09
that situation your mind is just not
82:10
prepared to cope with that I mean maybe
82:12
if you are a soldier and if you
82:13
experienced combat exactly and you know
82:15
how to stay calm and a firefight because
82:18
you’ve been at a bunch of them but for
82:19
the average person I mean it’s one of
82:21
the reasons why I witnessed testimony
82:24
it’s one of the worst pieces of evidence
82:25
you could ever get including I mean
82:27
about it about basically everything
82:29
about fistfights you know anything oh
82:32
yeah now we all have examples in our
82:33
lives of seeing you know friends who’ve
82:35
been through the same thing we know that
82:37
they’ve burned through the same thing
82:38
and yet they have two totally different
82:39
right so of course you know what
82:41
happened I mean that’s that’s a real
82:44
problem but now you have this thing here
82:46
where I mean some ways even worse than
82:48
we do of the search to notch it up for
82:52
your own political science yeah or
82:53
against the enemy yeah same thing with a
82:55
Twitter
82:56
the Twitter pointment that I mean this
82:58
this obscene glee that goes on after any
83:02
terrorist attack in Europe but I think
83:03
also here as well the attempt is to
83:05
immediately call it for the other side
83:08
or for your side or whatever and to try
83:12
to use terrible events as a way to
83:14
justify whatever your own team is yes I
83:19
have I find it amazing with a gun debate
83:21
here and I would find it amazing coming
83:24
from a different society on it but the
83:26
wages will not shit up for one side or
83:28
the other in it and it’s you’ve got a
83:32
real problem on it I’ve been watching a
83:34
lot of it from the perspective of the
83:36
gun owners NRA members and the people
83:40
that want to defend the idea of having
83:43
guns even of arming teachers and you’re
83:47
looking at their perspective on it and
83:48
their perspective on it is all about
83:50
their rights all about the Constitution
83:52
all about the bill of rights all about
83:54
protecting the second Amendment all
83:56
about its gun ownership being taken away
83:59
gun ownership under attack the NRA under
84:01
attack they’re coming after our guns and
84:03
this is this constant battle of ideas
84:05
it’s on Twitter not addressing the
84:08
actual issue I mean I’m sorry no it’s
84:12
watching this thing harming teachers
84:16
yeah that’s insane I mean this Samuel
84:18
Jackson had a great quote about it but
84:20
you mean it’s you know he put it on
84:23
Twitter like someone tell a motherfucker
84:25
who’s never been in a gun fight the
84:26
problems of arming a bunch of teachers
84:29
right yes somebody said someone’s been
84:31
in a gun fight please tell ya
84:33
motherfuckers somebody said somebody
84:35
said anyone who thinks is a good idea
84:36
giving teachers guns is clearly never
84:39
seen one try to use an overhead
84:40
projector ah yeah there’s there’s Samuel
84:42
Jackson look at that three hundred and
84:44
six thousand likes so you know was an
84:47
effective tweet check the number it was
84:52
only yeah you got three tweets it can’t
84:54
be true nobody likes yeah I I thought
84:57
there was a very pertinent one a few
84:58
years ago in New York on fifth when
85:00
somebody shot their colleague and
85:04
outside the office they came back his
85:07
disgruntled worker shot the colleague
85:08
and
85:09
locally there was some policemen around
85:11
the corner and they came out and started
85:13
firing at the guy who’d done it ended up
85:17
wounding about 11 pedestrian well you
85:19
would I mean I’m not saying by the way
85:22
we have we have our own problems but I
85:24
mean this is a big problem for American
85:25
what I kind of more guns and we have
85:27
people I mean I completely understand
85:31
why the Amendment exists and I think
85:35
it’s a very good idea for the time and I
85:38
think it’s a very understandable idea to
85:39
hold on to it now but but why can’t
85:43
people say for instance I mean we all
85:45
have abstract ideas we have to hold on
85:46
to but we and we all in our countries
85:48
have like weird things that other people
85:50
don’t understand that I think it’s odd
85:52
to have a hereditary constitutional
85:54
monarch for instance and right it is
85:57
weird
85:57
it’s a great way to put it it’s strange
85:59
and if you were starting from now you
86:01
might not do that but but clearly with
86:05
the gun ownership thing it is we are
86:08
willing to take bad things happening
86:12
quite often because we want to hold on
86:14
to the Second Amendment well the second
86:17
amendments been around forever the bad
86:18
things happening quite often is really
86:20
from Columbine on I mean there was a few
86:22
of them before there was the Austin
86:24
Texas but Tower shootings but it seems
86:28
to me I mean again I mean just it’s such
86:31
an obvious point and I don’t it sound
86:32
like it’s not he Britt his saying
86:34
something about America that’s not at
86:37
all welcome but it seems obvious that
86:38
you just you could do a lot more damage
86:41
with a semi-automatic rifle than you can
86:45
with a knife and most people we see this
86:48
in the terrorism as well there are
86:50
really committed terrorists who don’t
86:52
commit acts of violence unless they can
86:54
get hold of a the means to do it
86:57
because we often think well why don’t
86:58
you just like go out with a knife some
87:01
people do but most people actually want
87:04
to go out in that way and what they see
87:05
as being a blaze of glory right so they
87:09
like stopping them having the means of
87:12
getting that very easily seems to me
87:14
very obvious but that isn’t to say that
87:17
I mean of course I think you made a
87:18
point near the dam it’s like saying if
87:20
you say everyone who has a gun is part
87:22
of promises and
87:23
see not because it’s like saying
87:24
everyone who’s got a truck is about the
87:25
problem right but there is there are
87:27
obviously two things one is the
87:29
psychological and whatever the social
87:30
issues are that caused this to keep
87:32
happening and that that is obviously
87:34
very very important to try to get to the
87:36
root of but you can get to the root of
87:39
that or try to get through to that and
87:41
also recognize that people having access
87:43
to some of the weapons they have access
87:46
to in this country must be a part of the
87:49
problem it has to be and there also the
87:55
idea that you should just be able to go
87:59
out and buy a gun without really
88:01
understanding how a gun works at all
88:03
yeah and which is exactly how you do it
88:05
I got my first handgun license in 1994
88:08
that’s when I bought my first handgun I
88:10
just went and bought a handgun I did a
88:12
background check on me that’s it
88:14
I mean I went to the range they showed
88:15
me what the safety is pointed this put
88:17
the earphones on make sure you don’t
88:19
blow your is out bang bang bang and then
88:21
you leave with a gun I mean once your
88:23
background checks clear they find out
88:24
you’re not a criminal there’s not much
88:25
to it there’s a there’s a giant problem
88:29
with that if you want to drive an
88:32
automobile you have to show that you
88:34
understand the laws you have to
88:35
understand you have to sit with an
88:38
expert was to sit there a driving
88:39
instructor they have to go through it
88:41
with you they have to watch your
88:42
movements they have to watch you make
88:44
turns they have to wouldn’t wouldn’t you
88:47
imagine that it would be a good idea to
88:49
have some sort of a clinical evaluation
88:51
of a person that’s gonna gonna buy a gun
88:53
and here’s another thing there was an
88:56
article recently that was saying
88:58
contrary to popular belief most school
89:00
shootings are not committed by people
89:02
who are mentally ill well that’s a
89:04
fucking stupid thing to say you know why
89:06
because if you’re you’re committing a
89:08
school shooting but you’re mentally ill
89:09
okay period then on top of that what
89:13
they’re ignoring conveniently and this
89:15
is another headline thing psychiatric
89:17
medications right these people are
89:20
almost entirely on some form of
89:23
psychiatric medication whether it is
89:26
anti-anxiety pills
89:28
whether it’s antidepressants whether
89:29
they’re they’re all I’m not saying that
89:32
correlation equals causation I’m not
89:34
saying that but to say that
89:36
or not this is just a bullshit this is
89:38
clickbait headlines they’re mentally ill
89:40
100 percent 100 percent of them are
89:42
mentally ill there’s there’s a
89:44
conservative commentator in the UK
89:46
called Peter Hitchens who always makes a
89:48
point after Islamist terrorist attacks
89:50
in Europe that there’s a large number of
89:52
them as well as other types of attack
89:54
who seem to be on some kind of
89:55
medication yes and my point is always
89:58
I’m very very happy to have that
89:59
conversation I think we need to have
90:01
that conversation and we also have to
90:03
have the other parts of it as well
90:05
yes you’re right to say yeah I can’t see
90:08
why we can’t have all of this it’s the
90:10
same thing that we were talking about
90:11
earlier it’s these idea sports right
90:14
these Wars people don’t want to give up
90:17
their idea they don’t want to give up
90:18
any ground whatsoever on their second
90:21
Amendment rights whether it’s owning a
90:23
50 caliber fucking tank gun or whether
90:26
it’s having a gun for home safety or for
90:29
hunting they don’t want to give up
90:31
anything and they feel like it’s a
90:33
slippery slope the people that I follow
90:34
online that are tweeting about this on a
90:36
regular basis if you can go to a lot of
90:38
them like they’re making videos about it
90:41
Dana lash and Colin it is actually its
90:46
name is it’s not Collins Co Lyon Co Lyon
90:49
noir noi are he’s very very vocal about
90:53
and i’m reading all the stuff it’s like
90:54
all anyone’s taking into account is that
90:57
this idea that they’re coming after your
90:59
rights right and and emphasizing the
91:02
idea of a good person with a gun that
91:05
can protect people in these terrible
91:07
situations which can happen as well but
91:09
with what we have to address that’s not
91:11
we’re talking about we have to address
91:13
how the fuck do these crazy people get
91:15
guns why why are so many people on
91:18
mental health medications yeah well
91:20
that’s a huge huge I can’t understand we
91:23
always have this sort of wanting to have
91:25
the conversation about it but there’s
91:26
very little done on it that’s one thing
91:28
I’m very struck with we we have in all
91:31
our countries I miss slipped into a very
91:33
weird attitude towards this type of
91:35
medication yes very weird very just very
91:39
accepting of something that radically
91:41
alters the way your mind works I and
91:45
macaws there’s not an incentive drug
91:48
companies obviously don’t have an
91:49
incentive quite the
91:50
to look into it but it’s another example
91:53
of the the set of a set of things we
91:57
should be thinking about at the moment
91:58
and looking at which we just don’t
92:01
why don’t we because it’s sort of shut
92:03
down because we shut it down ourselves I
92:06
I think it’s just such a range of issues
92:09
this is the case with and it’s always
92:12
the same thing it’s always that if you
92:14
address the question difficult as it
92:16
might be you are attacking an individual
92:19
who might suffer from it yeah who might
92:21
be upset by us addressing the question I
92:24
mean I have a lot of suspicions about
92:27
all sorts of things I’m a very you know
92:29
skeptical person as it were about things
92:31
that I’m told so I’d like to look into
92:32
intending I’m amazed at the number of
92:35
things in our societies that we just
92:37
don’t discuss and they’re all the things
92:39
that we ought to be discussing issues
92:42
like mental health issues issues that
92:45
have to do with the social presumptions
92:47
that are going on left right in the
92:48
center at the moment where you’re not
92:50
meant to discuss things that have Puffs
92:53
anything else very very interesting and
92:54
very important and I just see it
92:59
everywhere this might by the way so this
93:02
is a slightly strange segue to make but
93:04
there was a fascinating one in in
93:07
Britain a couple of days ago a slightly
93:10
lighter subject but there was not that
93:12
much like that but there’s a diver in
93:16
the UK called Tom Daley who married a
93:17
screenwriter from Hollywood called
93:19
Dustin Lance Black and it was announced
93:21
a couple of weeks ago on Valentine’s Day
93:23
that they were having a baby and there
93:25
was a photograph of them holding a scan
93:27
they sent out on their Twitter of two
93:30
men who married who have ultrasounds
93:32
gear and all of the papers and the BBC
93:35
and Evan also report is saying Dustin
93:37
and Tom are having a baby and I mean I’m
93:42
gay and I’m I don’t think I’m homophobic
93:44
but I look this as a thing how someone
93:50
else involved I mean you know there’s a
93:52
joke yeah
93:53
gays a kind of Tim doesn’t mean we can’t
93:55
keep trying but I just glued his eyes
93:59
although nothing
94:01
in the articles about this tells me
94:03
anything I would like to know like I
94:06
know that they didn’t just have a roll
94:07
around and woke up in the morning and
94:08
one of them was preggers I know that and
94:10
I know that there has to be a woman
94:13
involved at some point we know this but
94:16
we are meant just like adapt okay great
94:20
cool
94:21
and it’s almost as if it’s set up so
94:23
that somebody says wait isn’t isn’t
94:27
isn’t a woman isn’t there a uterus so
94:31
that then everyone goes biggert right
94:39
and and of course somebody did somebody
94:43
from the Daily Mail wrote a column
94:45
saying come on to Dad’s isn’t a new
94:47
normal sort of thing and of course then
94:49
everyone piled in on that and all these
94:51
advertisers withdrew their advertising
94:55
literally literally until the day before
94:57
yesterday it was possible to say I don’t
95:00
think you guys can just like have sex
95:02
and make a child literally that was okay
95:05
until the day before yesterday and it’s
95:06
not okay today so what will not be okay
95:09
tomorrow and I just think I think and I
95:13
wrote about it and and maybe a couple
95:16
other people ended up doing it too but I
95:18
think that’s really interesting like a
95:20
lot of this answer I think it’s really
95:22
interesting about this that you are the
95:24
things that seem very obvious to us are
95:27
all the things you’re not meant to write
95:29
about almost as if they’re like booby
95:31
traps where you need to go off yeah and
95:33
and I just think why don’t more people
95:36
pile on in right um because we could
95:39
have a heck of a time and we might well
95:45
people don’t want to pile in on anything
95:47
revolve involving gender or sexuality
95:49
it’s too scary it’s a landmine field joe
95:54
they just name it is then walk in
95:56
especially as you said earlier people
95:58
with regular jobs yeah if you get called
96:00
out for being a racist or a homophobe or
96:02
anything along those lines you’re doomed
96:04
sure it’s some manat case anyone who
96:09
does have a voice
96:11
as a writer or speaker whatever
96:14
broadcaster I think has a
96:16
disproportionate duty to do so right to
96:19
do so I mean there’s no point in just
96:22
repeating those same new lies there’s a
96:26
disproportionate duty to try to break
96:28
them down yeah I come I’m one of my
96:30
favorite quotes that one from HL Mencken
96:31
who says you know that history was
96:32
always progressed by jolly fellows
96:34
heaving dead cats into sanctuaries and
96:37
going roistering down the highways of
96:39
the world and I just I I I wish that
96:44
there were more dead cat heavers it’s
96:51
not a bad job you can make a living
96:52
sometimes and and it’s it’s it’s one of
96:56
the only things worth doing if if we’re
96:58
all going to be told lies and expect it
97:00
to go along with them whether it’s about
97:02
terrorism or gay parenting or mental
97:07
health or anything else
97:07
whole set of them it’s a really
97:09
target-rich environment it is and I
97:12
think there’s more people doing that now
97:14
than ever before but it’s more people
97:17
like you and I who can kind of get away
97:19
with it yeah I don’t know what why do
97:21
you think you get away with it
97:22
me yeah cuz you can’t take me seriously
97:24
right I’m a cage fighting commentator
97:27
and a dirty comedian writing nobody’s
97:30
listening to me and taking me seriously
97:31
in that regard yeah book sort of it’s I
97:37
just first of all I’m a kind person I
97:43
think that helps like I’m not a mean
97:45
person right when I’m saying these
97:47
things I’m saying these things from I’m
97:48
going what what the fuck is this like
97:51
here was one that I thought was really
97:53
fascinating and this is one of the great
97:55
example of how strange we get on
97:59
subjects Caitlyn Jenner when when
98:02
Caitlyn Jenner transitioned that was the
98:05
primary thing that people talk about oh
98:07
my god she’s a woman now and it was
98:09
right after she had been spacing out
98:12
behind the wheel slammed into a woman
98:15
and pushed her into traffic and a
98:16
head-on collision and the woman died and
98:18
that was almost just completely
98:20
forgotten
98:20
yes completely forgotten yes not only
98:23
that she doesn’t believe in gay man
98:25
right like what your you have the wrong
98:30
spokesperson I mean you could not have a
98:33
more wrong spokesperson yeah but yet
98:36
ESPN and glamour Woman of the Year and
98:39
these all these different things and
98:41
athlete of the year yes wearing dresses
98:43
and fabulous and glam and let’s get your
98:45
chin shaved down right because that’s
98:47
who you really are who you really are is
98:49
not this person there now you got to you
98:52
got to shave your chin down it’s it’s
98:54
it’s big it goes right that thing about
98:56
the almost as if you’re being dead yes
98:58
you better discuss it I said this to Sam
99:01
Harris I got him into trouble just on
99:03
his podcast by saying this and he didn’t
99:05
attack me apparently he got a whole load
99:07
of transfer of accusations because of me
99:09
but I said to him I thought what was
99:12
happening was that we were being asked
99:14
not only to agree that Caitlyn Bruce
99:16
Jenner to become Caitlyn general the
99:17
Caitlyn Jenner was a woman but that but
99:20
that you had to find her yes Jenny you
99:26
were just and and I find those those
99:29
ones are just there was one the other is
99:30
a bit like that they gave her it’s like
99:33
I dare you you just you just try
99:35
pretending pretending that Tom and
99:37
dusting can’t happen and and it was the
99:41
same with those a little while ago
99:42
there’s a boy in Britain who was I kind
99:45
of whether he he wanted to turn up to
99:47
school in a dress he’s like nine years
99:48
old and I think there was a row I kind
99:50
of where the school said yes or no it
99:53
was a big thing and then it became her
99:54
way in on the behalf of the
99:55
nine-year-old trans kid lots of
99:59
questions to ask there yeah and and then
100:02
it became the the nine-year-old kid was
100:04
a was was a became a model for a fashion
100:08
shoot and then it’s like find the
100:12
nine-year-old boy who said he’s a girl
100:14
attractive and say it’s beautiful how
100:19
much more do you want to push people
100:21
like no they’re rewarding they’re like
100:24
like isn’t she lovely right what are you
100:30
doing to us I what are you trying to
100:34
make us agree to what what’s the cause
100:38
of
100:39
all of us you must have been talking
100:42
about this like what this is this
100:44
bizarre illogical conversation that
100:46
falls into these very convenient yeah
100:49
well cut grooves that you’re really not
100:52
allowed to slide the ideas arrived
100:54
what’s causing this I think it’s so many
100:59
things I one is one is that it’s
101:00
possible this is what happens when the
101:03
economics goes wrong I’ve got a feeling
101:06
the economics I mean is that if people’s
101:09
if people aren’t saying like wait it
101:11
increases in their living senses I mean
101:13
my generation I know I’m 38 by just
101:17
above this generation but the
101:18
generations ever so slightly below me is
101:21
becoming aware that France it won’t get
101:23
on the property ladder at all maybe
101:26
property ladder meaning owning a home
101:28
owning a home the things that their
101:30
parents generation got not easily by any
101:33
means but it wasn’t the wasn’t easy for
101:35
boomers but that that somehow they’re
101:40
going to have it harder than their
101:41
parents generation or might not enjoy
101:43
the living standards that their parents
101:45
generation enjoyed might be certainly in
101:48
Western Europe coming home it might be
101:50
occurring to them what do you do in
101:52
those search situations you’ve got to
101:56
have other things to to get worth from
101:58
if for instance you’re not going to own
102:01
a home until you’re 40 and at that point
102:04
if you’re a woman at your career you
102:05
need to have children but you can’t
102:06
afford to take the time off work and you
102:09
might not be able to start a family and
102:10
then you’re trying to start a family in
102:12
your 40s and it’s harder very hard and a
102:15
whole set of other things like that that
102:17
are definitely delayed for new
102:19
generation I think that it’s possible I
102:21
not saying certainly it’s it’s possible
102:24
it seems to me that that generation
102:25
might discover new gods and might want
102:30
to enforce the new rules just as avidly
102:33
as the old gods and and there is an
102:38
element of that going like I can’t
102:41
understand why otherwise every time I
102:43
talk about the things we talked about
102:46
there they would just continuously be
102:48
this very angry reaction not oh that’s
102:51
interesting you know I never thought I
102:52
know
102:53
I think probably like you now I mean
102:54
it’s quite hard to shock me it ought to
102:56
upset me you know that’s interesting you
103:00
know why do you think that but so why do
I always get this like we’ve got to stop
him other than that these are new
Commandments that we’re breaking hmm and
and white so and I mean they’re all sort
of connected aren’t they these things
yeah they’re all attempts to but they’re
all attempts to something like purity
which disturbs me we’re sort of if we
could just get everything in a row you
know you even hear that thing get in
your lane yeah that’s Oh get in your
lane
Oh do you think you are what’s my lane I
think I’ve said it a few times you know
but I mean but only people that needed
to stay in their Lane New York I’m
different New York Times yes as we disap
103:50
Lane over okay no I’m reading your times
103:52
the plane oh and and there’s a there’s a
103:54
question as you know agony aren’t we
103:57
call it what do you call self help
103:58
whatever advice column hmm this woman
104:00
says she was on the on the train a
104:04
couple days ago and there was a man who
104:06
came on with his girlfriend he was being
104:07
really abusive to her and it just kept
104:09
happening and he was really it was kind
104:10
of nasty brawler violence situation she
104:15
doesn’t know what to do other people the
104:16
care they’ll move away isn’t and she’s
104:18
and of course you can see what’s coming
104:19
the culmination of it is she says she
104:21
gets off the train and she wonders
104:23
whether she should have said something
104:24
but she says conscious of her white
104:26
privilege and these people were people
104:29
of color hmm and I am reading this I’m
104:33
thinking what you now now if you saw a
104:38
man of different skin pigmentation from
104:42
you abusing a woman of different skin
104:45
pigmentation from you the right thing is
104:48
not to defend the woman that seems like
104:50
a just a real justification for being a
104:53
coward yes
104:54
but but but I tend the advice was you
104:56
know you did sort of the right thing
104:57
maybe you should have spoken to an
104:58
official certainly but there was no kind
104:59
of so all this stuff all this weird get
105:02
in your lane no you know notes your
105:06
privilege you know way up your privilege
105:07
I mean that’s a good way to make society
105:09
have a nervous breakdown wake up you’re
105:11
privileged you know it’s privileged
105:12
scorecards I mean my god I am but but
105:16
all of these things seem to it’s almost
105:18
as if people think if we get the the the
105:21
lanes correct everything will be sorted
105:25
and here’s a problem is that that first
105:29
of all the means of doing this are just
105:31
hideous
105:32
I mean hideous they accentuate racial
105:35
difference they accentuate sexual and
105:37
gender difference they accentuate
105:39
everything else and the destination is
105:43
horrible it is not the Nirvana they
105:47
think that they’re creating mmm so this
105:50
is a really good moment to try to look
105:53
at some of this and to talk about it and
105:56
to think about as widely and as freely
105:58
as we can and yet and yet the effort is
106:02
to do the opposite I think your honor
106:04
something with the idea that this
106:05
radical progressive very restrictive
106:08
line of communication ideology that
106:11
we’re experiencing we’re talking about
106:13
it’s coming from a lot of people that
106:15
don’t have a religion yes they’re
106:17
atheists or they’re at the very least
106:19
agnostics modern progressives very
106:21
rarely religious yes and this mouse
106:25
before somebody who’s non-belief like
106:27
myself this is a painful thing to look
106:29
at but again we have to think about it
106:31
but that’s isn’t that an interesting
106:32
thing as well because you think of
106:34
yourself as being on a team with these
106:35
other atheists or agnostics see I don’t
106:38
but you don’t but I’m saying as an
106:40
atheist yourself you have to look at it
106:42
that way you’ve already lumped yourself
106:43
in with them yes III had speaking of
106:46
camps in the US a while ago and I spoke
106:48
to a guy who’s really really clever
106:50
skewed and he was a free thinker he said
106:54
he said the afters we were talking he
106:56
said you know he’d had some hideous
106:58
experience at a local free thinker
106:59
Society you know where everyone’s like
107:01
get in your lane and he was like I
107:03
thought that being among free thinkers
107:06
like the rest would all be good they no
107:08
no no they they’re free thinkers turn
107:11
out to be just as able to be blindfolded
107:13
if you know on certain things down when
107:18
you imagine is of course self proclaimed
107:20
freethinkers would be even more inclined
107:22
to adopt a rigid ideology they’re
107:25
proclaiming themselves to be a free
107:27
thinker and and it’s possible this comes
107:29
from that you know the the old Jaguar
107:33
sensors you know that the sensor knows
107:36
everything that the people are really
107:38
into and I spoke once to a band who was
107:42
on the British Board of Film
107:43
classification
107:44
he said all day watching really hardcore
107:46
pornography deciding what could be
107:47
legalized so that’s you must have a very
107:50
dark view of humanity it wasn’t justice
107:53
scalia’s interpretation of pornography I
107:56
don’t know how to describe it but I’ll
107:58
know it when I see it right exactly
108:00
like why aren’t you our fucking judge
108:02
and it may be it but it may be that
108:04
these people but a lot of conservatives
108:07
have this thing that one becomes rigid
108:09
about something because you’ve seen into
108:12
the abyss because you don’t know you
108:15
might and behave in a certain very
108:18
terrible way and so you you you want to
108:22
pull back from that chaos you want to
108:25
pull other people back as well it seems
108:27
to me that a lot of so-called free
108:28
thinkers self designated free fingers
108:30
may well have these glimpses and may
108:33
well think I don’t know what’s holding
108:35
this together and therefore might
108:39
precisely for that reason be
108:41
disproportionately rigid on almost any
108:44
new ideology that came along get in lane
108:47
yeah yeah I like this idea that this is
108:53
almost like a substitution for religion
108:55
it’s almost like there’s an inherent
108:57
need that we have because human beings
109:00
have operated under these patterns for
109:02
so long we can’t have this yeah yeah
109:10
it’s it’s interesting because the more
109:12
you like we found ways to mock it right
109:16
and one of the ways to mock it and I
109:17
think that that’s important and that
109:19
mockery although it seems trivial what
109:22
it does do is let people know how
109:24
ridiculous other people feel those ideas
109:26
are and then it makes them really they
109:29
don’t like being mocked the term social
109:31
justice warrior is wonderful for that
109:33
because it just makes you look like such
109:34
a fucking fool you know social justice
109:37
warrior yes like that I was a colleague
109:41
of mine a spectator in London called
109:43
a-rod little wrote a few years any any
109:45
man who says he’s a feminist clearly
109:47
just as seeking a shag for sure well I
109:51
mean it’s one thing to want equality but
109:54
to proudly state that you’re a feminist
109:57
is it’s almost yeah I have joked around
109:59
about it like I see what you’re doing
110:00
yeah you don’t run fast you can’t pick
110:03
things up there was must he liked to
110:04
fuck I get it somebody said is very
110:07
faulty in Britain they said they
110:10
described himself as an anti-racist
110:12
party and some comedian who said it
110:14
actually makes makes you think they
110:16
might be racist
110:17
we like saying you’re an anti pedophilia
110:21
children’s agency that’s hilarious
110:30
that’s so true it’s so true it’s a it’s
110:33
virtue signaling to the highest degree
110:34
it’s like you you’re putting up your
110:36
flag of moral superiority standing on
110:39
your high ground but it is it is it
110:40
obviously means a great deal to these
110:42
people but yeah but then the question is
110:44
just how to how to invite them not to
110:46
think like that
110:47
I think mockery mockery is one of the
110:49
best ways because it just lets them know
110:52
that other people think it’s
110:53
preposterous so it’s not achieving the
110:55
desired result the desired result is oh
110:57
look at this amazing person there’s
110:59
incredible progressive ways of thinking
111:01
not like oh look at this transparent
111:03
fuck who’s just trying to get laid
111:06
that’s that’s how a lot of us see it
111:09
yeah they don’t see that we see it that
111:11
way and some of them I mean it’s in a
111:14
lot of ways a lot of our behavior is its
111:18
experimental you know I mean people are
111:20
experimenting with various different
111:22
ways of gaining social preference points
111:26
well this is this is why I was saying if
111:29
people aren’t believers there are things
111:32
they can learn from religion and from
111:33
tradition mm-hmm
111:35
and I’ve always thought that the I’ve
111:38
always thought there’s one central
111:39
insight to the judeo-christian tradition
111:42
which I wish that the social justice
111:44
warriors bore in mind and that is that’s
111:46
the guy
111:47
Navid n’ and and and the the or can’t
111:51
recall the Crooked Timber of humanity
111:53
mm-hmm just just to recognize the
111:55
central truth which is in that tradition
111:57
and in others that that we’re not born
112:01
in this situation of Rousseau e’en
112:04
perfection or goodness quite quite
112:08
otherwise we are we are this very very
112:14
contorted being which is part which is
112:17
capable of incredible greatness and
112:20
beauty and kindness and forgiveness and
112:23
also capable of their opposites and
112:26
that’s and that it’s not it’s not that
112:28
you are one and other people are the
112:30
other but all of us all of us both all
112:35
the time and so there never is a victory
112:38
and there never is a win rather than
112:41
trying to deal with and restrain your
112:47
own worst impulses in the life that you
112:49
have and honestly express all the issues
112:53
that arrive while you’re trying to do
112:55
that absolutely and and trying to tell
112:59
the truth where you see it and and
113:01
giving voice to it and trying to I mean
113:04
you know this is just it’s just you so
113:06
clear to me that that if people if
113:08
people could realize this is a central
113:10
problem of the thing that you and I and
113:12
others all faces the the desire to claim
113:16
that the that somebody who disagrees on
113:18
an issue isn’t just of a disagreeing
113:22
mind but evil hmm and that in any you
113:27
know we have in Britain we are wracked
113:29
at the moment still by 18 months after a
113:32
single vote on a single matter of
113:34
governance we are still wracked by
113:35
really unpleasant politic from brexit
113:39
yeah
113:39
and I suspect it’s it’s not I hate the
113:41
overlap of the two but it’s probably
113:43
something like the Trump events here but
113:46
again and again you come back to the
113:48
same thing which is just instead of
113:49
thinking one side is entirely right and
113:52
the other entirely I didn’t say you give
113:53
up on objective fact or anything I’ve
113:55
been just consider that your opponent
113:57
might be approaching this with an honest
113:59
mode
114:00
I might have honest reasons for
114:03
disagreeing with you and in the absence
114:05
of that and with media just endlessly
114:07
feeding us whatever wood is we know our
114:09
own side happens to think in the absence
114:13
of that I just see our trenches in both
114:15
our countries just being dug deeper and
114:17
deeper until until there’s just no hope
114:19
of being able to even shout over the top
114:21
and be heard and one can only get to
114:25
that stage if if as I say you recognize
114:28
that it’s it’s it’s not a constant fight
114:32
against Nazis and you know I mean it’s
114:38
by the way and also never to forget that
114:41
the Nazis didn’t seem like the Nazis to
114:43
a lot of people when the Nazis were
114:44
being with Nazis but it’s just it’s just
114:48
not as easy as that no it’s not you know
114:52
but it’s it’s an easy way to demonize
114:54
the other side yeah it’s an easy way to
114:57
prop up your side it’s a it’s a cheap
114:59
trick it is but came back to where we
115:02
started
115:03
what if the cheap trick ends up having
115:05
some terrible consequence hmm of making
115:10
all of our defenses go down you know
115:18
well the both of you that I mean we
115:20
started the conversation off with that
115:22
Community Guidelines strike good lord
115:26
yeah this is this really is a very very
115:30
strange time very strange always was
115:33
Douglas thank you very much I really
115:35
really enjoyed this conversation I
115:37
really appreciate it and your book that
115:39
is out now is death of Europe it’s
115:42
called immigration identity Islam and
115:45
it’s variable if you can find any book
115:47
shops left minutes um you gotta get it
115:50
online you can get it online as well
115:52
there’s a few Barnes and Nobles out
115:53
there all right thank you Douglas Murray
115:55
ladies and gentlemen great pleasure
115:56
thank you
115:58
[Music]
116:02
[Applause]
116:07
[Music]
116:12