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Transcript
00:00
[Music]
00:04
we’ve covered how to spot a psychopath
00:07
or sociopath before but we’ve never gone
00:09
this in-depth on the clinical diagnosis
00:12
behind them antisocial personality
00:15
disorder
00:15
welcome to the med circle series
00:17
antisocial personality disorder
00:19
psychopaths sociopaths and how to spot
00:22
them it’s just so great to sit down with
00:25
you I love talking with you sometimes we
00:27
talk about some topics that I think are
00:30
really really dreadful and hurtful yeah
00:34
and I think this series is going to be
00:36
more in that Lane yes it is it is yeah
00:38
you brought up the cluster B yeah
00:40
personality disorders I think it’s so
00:42
I’m so glad we’re doing this having this
00:44
conversation because a lot of folks out
00:47
there are trying to make sense of these
00:48
difficult patterns and they put in all
00:50
kinds of words into search engines
00:52
online
00:53
cluster B is a something that comes out
00:55
and a lot of people don’t know how to
00:56
make sense of it so let me give you some
00:58
historical background this word cluster
00:59
B it comes from how the personality
01:02
disorders were traditionally organized
01:04
in the diagnostic manual of psychiatry
01:07
and psychology called the DSM the DSM
01:10
are organized personality disorders
01:12
there were ten of them into three groups
01:14
cluster a cluster B and cluster C and
01:17
they organized the disorders based on
01:19
their manifestations now back in
01:21
graduate school we we would remember
01:24
these three clusters by calling them mad
01:27
bad and sad that’s how we that we sort
01:30
of memorized them and by mad it was sort
01:32
of that traditional like a madman like
01:34
you know person who’s just really off
01:35
and almost like you know very disturbed
01:38
bad meant almost badly behaved and
01:40
that’s our cluster B’s and sad were
01:42
people who are more anxious and avoid
01:43
him that the cluster B disorders are
01:47
also termed dramatic and erratic now
01:50
these these disorders again are grouped
01:52
by sort of how they affect a person
01:54
today we’re going to focus on cluster B
01:55
the cluster B disorders are the
01:57
difficult disorders they’re antagonistic
01:59
they’re interpersonally challenging
02:02
these are folks who as a rule almost
02:04
always lack empathy they tend to be
02:07
entitled so it’s almost like narcissism
02:10
becomes a nice sort of like the midpoint
02:12
of a lot of these to sort
02:13
like most of them have qualities of
02:15
narcissism in different ways and as you
02:17
said the four disorders that hang out in
02:20
cluster B are antisocial personality
02:23
disorder borderline personality disorder
02:26
narcissistic personality disorder and
02:28
something called histrionic Personality
02:30
Disorder these are probably the most
02:33
clinically vexing patterns we see in
02:36
psychology and psychiatry because they
02:38
can make for very difficult clients
02:40
these patterns can interfere with us
02:42
treating other issues the person may
02:44
have like substance abuse bipolar
02:46
disorder major depression anxiety
02:48
disorders eating disorders the list goes
02:50
on if you have a cluster B disorder and
02:52
these other things it really you’re
02:54
constantly sort of like it’s like you’re
02:56
trying to like fight two different
02:58
battles at the same time and it’s really
03:00
one big kind of war if you will so it is
03:03
a challenge and it’s a challenge for
03:05
people not only living with the cluster
03:06
B patterns but also a challenge for the
03:09
people living with those people who have
03:11
cluster B patterns so that’s what
03:13
cluster B is dramatic erratic emotional
03:16
antagonistic combative lacking empathy
03:22
oftentimes internally very chaotic they
03:25
can’t regulate their emotions very
03:26
easily and some of these are really
03:28
clinically demanding borderline
03:29
personality for example is very
03:30
clinically challenging condition
03:33
narcissistic histrionic clients they
03:35
don’t even tend to end up in therapy
03:36
that often an antisocial personality
03:38
disorder those folks often end up in
03:41
prison we’ve talked about specific
03:43
personality disorders but what is a
03:45
personality disorder in general a
03:47
personality disorder is a maladaptive
03:50
pattern of behavior and relating that
03:54
cuts across all situations in the
03:57
person’s life relationships work social
04:01
functioning and even their sense of self
04:03
it’s the long-standing stability that
04:07
makes these be called personality
04:08
disorders because personality is
04:10
considered to be a stable trait but
04:12
their personality styles cause the
04:15
person problems in all areas of their
04:18
life but it’s the maladaptive consistent
04:21
and stable nature of these problematic
04:23
personality patterns that lead to them
04:25
being called personality disorder
04:28
can someone be diagnosed as having
04:31
cluster B disorder no yeah so you just
04:35
have one of them and that’s yeah you
04:37
what would end up happening is like for
04:39
example I as you know I do research on
04:41
psychopathology and mental illness and
04:43
mental health so when we analyze our
04:45
data because these disorders are common
04:47
sometimes we’ll combine these patterns
04:49
to see if we see any patterns there so
04:51
partly it serves a sort of a research
04:52
kind of an approach it becomes a
04:55
shorthand for clinicians but we as
04:57
clinicians have to be really really
04:59
careful about using that term because
05:01
cluster B is code for difficult patient
05:04
and there’s a that’s really big yeah
05:07
muster B is code for difficult patient
05:10
now yeah I can already hear people
05:11
though saying well I’m watching that my
05:15
therapist said I have cluster B now I’m
05:18
that’s rude why would you say it can’t
05:19
feel good that’s what I’m saying we have
05:21
to be very careful with these labels
05:22
it’s really meant it’s almost like again
05:24
it’s an organizational scheme if we see
05:26
because what may happen Kyle as a person
05:28
may not meet the full diagnostic
05:31
criteria for any one pattern of those
05:33
disorders we chose four disorders they
05:35
men have a little bit this a little bit
05:37
of that and we might call it this sort
05:39
of has a cluster B pattern to it it
05:41
means that we might use very specific
05:43
kinds of therapeutic techniques or
05:45
realize that these patterns may
05:47
interfere with the treatment of other
05:50
disorders if you will but it does imply
05:53
typically somebody whose interpersonally
05:55
difficult I’ll be honest with you I mean
05:57
those of us in mental health will
05:58
sometimes he even use that as shorthand
05:59
in our own lives like I’m going to
06:01
Thanksgiving it’s going to be difficult
06:03
to have cluster B relatives there you
06:05
know anyone in the in the business will
06:07
know like AHA she’s got some really
06:08
difficult family members but it’s it’s
06:10
beyond difficult it’s antagonistic and
06:12
and almost like they often don’t get it
06:15
is it almost often that they don’t want
06:18
the help not necessarily I think you
06:22
know because cluster B disorders taken
06:24
so much territory I work with many
06:27
clients of borderline personality
06:28
disorder they desperately want help they
06:31
desperately want help in fact sometimes
06:33
need more help than even they can get in
06:35
sort of like one or two weekly therapy
06:37
sessions and many clients with
06:39
borderline personalities sort are very
06:41
vested in getting that help but it’s
06:43
difficult for them they feel so
06:44
internally chaotic and frightened that
06:46
therapy can be challenging not only for
06:48
them but for the therapists who’s trying
06:50
to sort of sue this patient obviously
06:52
when you’re dealing with somebody with
06:53
narcissistic personality you don’t think
06:55
anything’s wrong so they’re often gonna
06:57
think I don’t even need help and then
06:59
you know histrionic Personality Disorder
07:00
actually they’re thinking of removing
07:02
that from the diagnostic manual these
07:04
are people who are dramatic and
07:06
attention seeking and seductive and look
07:08
at me how come I’m not getting all the
07:09
attention
07:10
kind of thing they almost also never end
07:13
up seeking out treatment for that
07:15
particular pattern the folks with
07:17
antisocial personality disorder also
07:18
almost never seek out treatment they get
07:20
in trouble for something and then
07:22
they’re sometimes forced into treatment
07:24
briefly describe what antisocial
07:26
personality disorder is because that
07:27
name is so misleading antisocial
07:29
personality disorder is one of the most
07:32
important one of the most unfortunately
07:34
named diagnoses out there it throws my
07:37
students off it throws off trainees it
07:40
throws off lay people antisocial
07:42
personality disorder is actually quite
07:45
dangerous it can be quite dangerous it
07:47
doesn’t mean what we think a lot of
07:48
people take the antisocial to mean oh
07:50
these are people who don’t want to be
07:52
with other people almost as though
07:53
they’re socially anxious not at all the
07:56
unfortunate term historically came from
07:59
this idea that these were people who
08:01
were anti society they were anti the
08:05
norms of society they would break the
08:08
rules of society that was really
08:10
anti-social came from like I said such
08:13
an unfortunate name because we use and
08:14
say antisocial to mean someone who
08:16
doesn’t want to socialize what would you
08:17
call it I would call it psychopathic
08:19
personality disorder yes that’s what I
08:22
would term it an antisocial personality
08:23
disorder is the diagnostic term for
08:28
things that are called psychopathy and
08:31
sociopathy in the popular literature in
08:35
the media at large in all kinds of other
08:39
writing in criminology writing but not
08:42
it’s not a diagnose those are not
08:44
diagnostic terms but those two terms
08:46
definitely ascribe more to antisocial
08:49
personality disorder now what is it
08:51
antisocial personality disorder is
08:54
pattern whereby a person not only lacks
08:58
empathy but they think the rules do not
09:00
apply to them they do not adhere to them
09:02
they break moral codes social codes
09:06
legal codes they have a failure to take
09:09
any kind of responsibility
09:11
they’re very deceitful they exploit
09:14
other people to achieve their ends
09:16
they will take risks that will put other
09:17
people in danger so they’re dangerous
09:20
they’re dangerous and here’s the wringer
09:22
here’s the wringer I personally think
09:25
that to really hit to really call it
09:29
antisocial personality disorder you’re
09:31
talking about someone who lacks remorse
09:34
for the bad things they do and that’s
09:37
where it gets scary can they faster it
09:39
gets scary
09:40
I’m sorry can they fake it can can a
09:42
person fake can they fake remorse oh
09:44
absolutely you can fake anything a fake
09:46
empathy you can fake remorse you can
09:48
fake anything and they do they will when
09:50
they’re finally hauled in front of the
09:52
press conference they’ll cry crocodile
09:54
tears and a year later they’ll do it
09:56
again
09:56
that’s antisocial personality disorder
09:59
which clusters of disorders do you think
10:01
are most common in terms of the
10:03
personality disorders overall I actually
10:06
think that the cluster B disorders may
10:12
be more common and the only reason I
10:14
think I’m gonna say that is because when
10:16
we do research on these disorders
10:17
they’re the ones that are more
10:19
clinically compelling so we may see more
10:22
clients with these patterns because
10:24
especially in the case of borderline
10:25
personality they’re more likely to get
10:27
help that’s right in the case of
10:28
antisocial personality disorder they’re
10:30
more likely to end up in prison so
10:31
they’re these two groups of folks we
10:33
study a lot because of the this sort of
10:35
the distress we see in borderline
10:37
personality and the danger that can be
10:38
created by antisocial personality so
10:41
fewer the end there’s four disorders in
10:42
that group too so it’s gonna up your
10:44
your yes your a number up a little bit I
10:46
think that the cluster B disorders
10:48
probably are the ones that are have the
10:50
highest prevalence rates across the
10:52
three groups overall yeah well you have
10:54
more disorders and people are having to
10:57
go get help so they’re more disruptive
10:58
who that’s who you’re gonna see I’d say
11:00
if you were if you were working in the
11:02
mental health business you’ll see that a
11:03
lot in cluster C there’s things like
11:05
avoidant personality disorder which is
11:07
it almost looks like a social link
11:08
disorder so you will see that sometimes
11:11
but sometimes we don’t even know which
11:12
variant we’re seeing social anxiety or
11:14
avoidant personality and with the
11:16
cluster a disorders the schizoid this
11:19
gets a typo the paranoid personalities
11:21
these are people who actually look quite
11:23
severely mentally oh they’re incredibly
11:25
either socially withdrawn or they appear
11:27
as so odd they almost look psychotic
11:28
there sometimes over-represented in
11:30
residentially unstable like homeless
11:32
populations or people who are in and out
11:34
of long-term psychiatric facilities is
11:37
there hope for people who are in the
11:40
cluster be damned in terms of hope for
11:43
cluster B clients it varies it varies
11:46
well hold it we don’t hear that answer a
11:49
lot
11:49
oh it varies yeah and that’s the problem
11:51
that speaks to how heterogeneous the
11:53
disorders that make up this cluster if I
11:55
talk about bipolar disorder and I talk
11:57
about anxiety depression ADHD the doctor
12:01
cross for me will say there’s so much of
12:03
no very variable I would say that the
12:06
most good research on treatment outcomes
12:09
and best practices can be found for
12:11
borderline personality disorder I
12:13
believe firmly that if you have a client
12:15
with borderline personality disorder and
12:17
you can give them trauma focused care
12:20
dialectical behavioral therapy whatever
12:23
psychiatric medications they may need to
12:25
manage other sorts of conditions they
12:27
have and other kinds of adjunctive
12:30
therapies that will help them with their
12:31
symptoms the treatment literature can
12:34
really show some good long-term outcomes
12:36
but the treatment has to be consistent
12:38
in long term and that’s often passed
12:40
beyond the financial ability of a lot of
12:43
people that’s what’s so unfortunate
12:44
because I think there is tremendous hope
12:46
for people with borderline personality
12:47
if they get the kinds of treatment and
12:50
if the client won’t cooperate with the
12:51
treatment then all bets are off with
12:54
narcissistic personality disorder you
12:55
know what I say about that you’re not
12:56
going to see much change and when you do
12:59
it’s glacial and the amount of change
13:01
you see is often not enough for the
13:03
people around them to feel like things
13:05
are better but with antisocial
13:08
personality disorder that disorder might
13:10
be the most hopeless of all these are
13:13
folks who will try to outwit and outfox
13:15
a therapist who will fake it and often
13:18
court-ordered to go to therapy as a
13:21
condition of
13:22
or probation or something like that and
13:24
so they’ll sit there for ten sessions
13:25
and say I don’t need to say anything I
13:27
just need to sign that documents that I
13:29
came here for ten sessions so you can
13:31
get a lot of resistance and they often
13:33
try to intimidate a therapist you have
13:35
to be a very specially trained therapist
13:37
to work with that population
13:39
particularly those who have very very
13:41
difficult criminal histories and if
13:43
you’re dealing with sort of the more
13:44
neat and tied up antisocial personality
13:47
sort of like the CEO variant they’re
13:49
they’re very manipulative they can be
13:52
very exploitative again they will often
13:54
try to outwit the therapist they’re
13:56
really not motivated to change because
13:58
they really truly don’t think there’s
13:59
anything to change so if anything
14:02
they’re just really out to gain the
14:04
system that’s not progress so I would
14:05
say definitely for them of all groups
14:07
they’ll have the worst outcomes what
14:09
percentage of your clients do you think
14:11
fall in the cluster B category Oh with
14:14
some cluster B symptomatology well up
14:16
mean well over 50% maybe yeah maybe even
14:19
a little less oh heck no no no no
14:24
actually that’s what I choose to focus
14:26
in but maybe forty percent forty percent
14:28
you know yeah that’s that is good though
14:30
because now at least people are getting
14:33
help or at in the space to get home and
14:34
there are people out there who
14:35
specialize in this like people who
14:37
specialize in dialectical behavioral
14:38
therapies we call DBT I’d say they see
14:40
90 percent because they’re working with
14:43
clients who have a lot of borderline
14:44
personality sorts of symptoms people who
14:46
work in prisons are probably seeing
14:48
antisocial personality and the level of
14:50
60 70 percent but I’d say almost half of
14:52
the clients I work with I choose to do
14:54
that though because like I said although
14:56
I would say maybe even all right I’ll be
14:58
35% because the majority of clients I
15:00
work with are trying to negotiate a
15:02
family or other relationship with a
15:05
person with a cluster B disorder a solid
15:07
third of them are struggling with these
15:09
with these issues well that leads
15:10
perfectly into my next question knowing
15:12
that if somebody has watched this video
15:14
this far they have been likely given a
15:17
diagnosis of a disorder in the cluster B
15:20
family or they knows anybody who has
15:23
what what could I ask them on their
15:27
behalf that you would think would be
15:28
most beneficial for them to hear I would
15:31
you know I think that the big question
15:33
people have is
15:35
from the person there’s two sides of it
15:37
from the side of the person who’s
15:39
experiencing it is what do I do
15:42
I’m not only always miserable I feel
15:45
like I’m making people miserable you
15:48
know and then from the other side I
15:50
think the question would be what do I do
15:53
I feel like nothing I say to this person
15:55
ever makes things better in fact all I
15:57
do is feel like things get worse and I
15:59
feel like I’m always walking on
16:00
eggshells what do I do
16:01
what do I do yeah answer to that I meet
16:05
them for the people who are experiencing
16:07
the symptomatology you got to get
16:09
therapy you’re not you’re not gonna
16:10
think your way out of this one
16:11
you’re not gonna meditate your way out
16:13
of this one you got to get therapy and
16:15
with somebody who is trained in things
16:17
like DBT and working with these kinds of
16:20
patterns okay that’s that they have to
16:23
yes you know dr. Yip is one of the
16:26
nation’s leading experts on OCD and I
16:28
interviewed her for our OCD series she
16:31
really drove home the point of don’t
16:34
just go get therapy because then the
16:36
therapist said yeah I treat OCD go find
16:39
the person who that’s what they do
16:41
that’s what they do they are OCD right
16:43
so with these people
16:45
you know I feel bad for someone who
16:46
might have gone to a therapist who said
16:48
they could treat it but they did it once
16:49
10 years ago and they had a bad
16:51
experience yeah yeah I think that you
16:53
especially with now again but something
16:55
like narcissistic personality disorder
16:57
if you actually do get them to therapy
16:59
you can use a combination of some DBT
17:02
techniques but also some cognitive
17:03
behavioral work some humanistic work
17:06
rapport building it’s a lot of its
17:08
relationship building you need a strong
17:09
therapist to work with those clients
17:11
because they will try to outfox you and
17:14
so you’ve got if you almost have to be
17:15
one step ahead of them like you can’t
17:16
fall for the charm you have to be almost
17:18
charming you and our charm proof to work
17:20
with the narcissistic clients and with
17:23
the auntie’s you know so it’s all about
17:25
expertise but the borderline clients are
17:27
the ones who are most likely to actually
17:28
seek out therapy and for them to say
17:31
like I said you do it right what do you
17:33
do you need to get help from somebody
17:35
who knows what they’re doing and it
17:36
might even be a team of people who know
17:38
what they’re doing in fact DBT is best
17:40
delivered in a team approach with a
17:42
combination of group therapy and
17:43
individual therapy and some medication
17:46
management
17:46
on the other side of it if somebody in
17:49
your life is experiencing these cluster
17:52
B patterns it’s going to be difficult
17:54
I’m telling you that right now and
17:56
you’re not a bad person for thinking
17:58
it’s difficult because a lot of you I
18:00
feel guilty there’s actually something
18:01
happening to them how dare I think that
18:03
this is difficult because it is because
18:05
the nature of these patterns is somewhat
18:07
antagonistic that that’s again it may be
18:10
that they’re feeling insecure or chaotic
18:13
inside and that’s why they’re lashing
18:14
out at the end of the day it doesn’t
18:15
matter when somebody lashes out it
18:17
doesn’t feel good regardless of the
18:19
reason and so I will tell people if you
18:22
are and you are with somebody who’s
18:24
experiencing cluster B patterns
18:26
definitely seek out individual therapy
18:28
you may need to manage your expectations
18:30
of that person and then ask yourself
18:33
what would the landscape of a
18:34
relationship look like with this person
18:36
if things don’t change in the cases yeah
18:38
it may not change those are really good
18:40
three takeaways real quick for people
18:44
watching explain briefly what DBT yes
18:47
DBT is dialectical behavioral therapy
18:49
dialectical behavior therapy was
18:52
developed by someone named dr. Marsha
18:54
Linehan and she developed DBT actually
18:59
specifically to address the crisis of
19:02
suicidality in people who had borderline
19:05
personality disorder because that’s the
19:07
dangerous issue people with borderline
19:10
personality are experiencing so much
19:12
inner pain and turmoil that they want to
19:14
silence that pain they truly do believe
19:17
often there are burden to others that
19:18
they don’t or they’re not worthy to live
19:20
it’s really it’s really agonizing for
19:22
them and for the people around them who
19:23
care for them and so DBT was initially
19:26
really developed as a way for the person
19:30
living with borderline personality
19:30
disorder to see how they life always
19:34
feels like a crisis to them how
19:36
everything is black or white and so the
19:38
dialectic is really to bring those two
19:40
sides those two perspectives together
19:42
and find that gray in the middle the
19:45
other thing that dr. Linehan brought
19:46
into this work was a real focus on
19:48
mindfulness people with borderline
19:50
personality disorder tend to react
19:52
instead of responding sponding is a more
19:55
thoughtful approach reacting is like you
19:56
jump right in through DBT using
19:59
mindfulness and sort
20:00
catching yourself you help people
20:02
construct more responsive rather than
20:05
reactive kinds of approaches when
20:09
they’re faced with a stressor you know
20:11
because the reacting often means
20:12
people’s feelings get hurt people get
20:14
angry but to help them deal with that
20:16
crisis and the fears that overtake a
20:19
person with borderline personality sort
20:21
of such as things like that they’re
20:22
going to be left that they’re going to
20:24
be alone that they can’t take care of
20:25
themselves
20:26
many people with borderline personality
20:28
disorder engage in a lot of negative
20:29
self-talk dialectical behavioral therapy
20:31
also draws from cognitive behavioral
20:33
therapy where you push back and say you
20:36
know it’s interesting you say all these
20:37
terrible things about yourself because
20:38
my experience and you really do point
20:40
out to them the good things and the
20:41
strengths and you do some resilience
20:43
building with them so and you have them
20:45
do homework assignments between sessions
20:47
so they do a lot more monitoring so they
20:49
can help they can start seeing their own
20:50
patterns
20:50
DBT has been shown to reduce the the
20:54
rate of suicidal thoughts suicidal
20:57
actions in people with borderline
20:59
personality disorder and it’s really the
21:01
only evidence-based treatment we know of
21:03
right now that has any consistently good
21:05
outcomes in person with persons with
21:07
borderline personality I just want to
21:09
touch on two things you said that really
21:10
struck a chord with me the first one is
21:12
mindfulness it is becoming a reoccurring
21:15
theme and all of my conversations about
21:17
mental health yes which makes me think
21:19
if there’s one thing we all could do to
21:21
make our lives better it would be to be
21:23
conscious of what we’re doing mindful of
21:26
what we’re doing and then the second
21:28
thing is that difference between
21:29
reacting and responding yeah that’s huge
21:33
everywhere we live in a very reactive
21:34
world and especially when you think
21:36
about tweeting and texting and and
21:39
responding to those times but that’s
21:41
reacting to right seats in text yeah
21:43
responding means you stop you think
21:46
what’s meaningful what would hurt what
21:49
would make sure well how do I write this
21:51
oh I don’t hurt people you know that
21:53
it’s actually beneficial to either the
21:55
receiver or other people who will be
21:57
seeing this message you go through a
21:59
series of cognitive steps but
22:01
unfortunately technology doesn’t I mean
22:03
I wish all technology made you like I
22:06
sure are sure are sure like you know
22:08
yeah yeah and honestly they made you
22:10
like in 60 seconds and then another
22:13
and then another 60 seconds and then are
22:16
you sure because by then
22:17
a lot of reacting would have come down
22:19
and you’re like I forget about it it’s
22:20
not that important you think about those
22:22
emails that you write in a rage and
22:24
hopefully you don’t send them and you
22:26
save it in the next morn you read and go
22:27
thank goodness I can say no never ever
22:29
put a name in a subject line of an email
22:31
until you’re ready to send it that’s
22:32
sort of a bit of advice but it’s that
22:34
react respond and mindfulness are linked
22:36
and because everything these days is so
22:38
quick quick quick and we’re judged on
22:41
speed and everything’s designed not only
22:42
for speed but not to catch ourselves
22:45
before we go off the edge yes that we
22:48
can send things without you know back in
22:49
the day you’d have to like write the
22:51
letter fold the letter put the letter in
22:53
the envelope find the stamp write the
22:55
addressed go to the mailbox that was
22:56
nine times you could have said maybe I
22:58
shouldn’t send this you know and so we
23:00
that’s where that mindful sits
23:03
mindfulness is a stop it’s a feel it’s a
23:06
think but that does mean awareness of
23:09
other people and if you don’t have
23:10
empathy all the mindfulness in the world
23:12
may not necessarily pay out let’s get
23:14
into it
23:14
what is antisocial personality disorder
23:16
so antisocial personality disorder is a
23:19
long-standing pattern of inability to
23:24
comply with moral legal ethical or
23:27
social codes or really an unwillingness
23:29
to do so these are people that are
23:31
characterized by lying deceit malice
23:34
lack of empathy they exploit other
23:37
people they break the law they are lack
23:41
responsibilities they don’t follow
23:43
through on things they have very
23:45
checkered work histories that kind of
23:47
thing they’ll use aliases
23:49
they’ll put other people at risk and
23:51
they lack remorse or guilt or shame for
23:55
the bad things that they do so that’s
23:56
what antisocial personality disorder is
23:58
now there’s a little interesting wrinkle
24:00
in this diagnosis in order for a person
24:03
to be diagnosed with antisocial
24:04
personality disorder we also have to
24:07
establish they had a diagnosis of
24:09
something called conduct disorder prior
24:12
to the age of 15 conduct disorder
24:15
probably best sort of ascribes to what
24:17
we might call juvenile delinquency these
24:19
are kids who were who’ve either engaged
24:22
in illegal activities like theft or
24:25
assault but also things like torturing
24:27
setting fires bullying peers abusing
24:33
taking advantage of taking advantage of
24:35
peers and that could even include like
24:36
sexually exploiting younger peers they
24:40
are there’s sort of almost a willful
24:43
cruelty even though they’re children
24:45
and they often won’t to show remorse or
24:47
even recognition of what the
24:49
ramifications of these actions are so
24:51
these are kids who may end up in
24:52
juvenile detention who will have trouble
24:55
with educational systems may drop out of
24:57
school so you have to establish this
25:00
track record that they were a kid who
25:02
would have these kinds of problematic
25:04
behaviors prior to the age of 15 and
25:06
then after the age of 18 we diagnosed
25:09
antisocial personality disorder so they
25:11
don’t have to get the diagnosis that
25:14
before the age of 15 because someone
25:17
could skip it someone could skip it
25:18
in fact they often do right but you’ll
25:19
go back and tell me about when your
25:21
teenage years it yeah then go you
25:22
probably had yeah and they’ll say yeah I
25:24
skipped school all the time and I got
25:26
expelled or I salted a kid or assaulted
25:28
a teacher I stole my dad’s money that
25:31
kind of thing you know doesn’t have to
25:32
all be big-ticket stuff it could be the
25:35
the if you will the the kind of bad
25:38
childhood behavior like bullying or
25:41
stealing candy a lot or stealing other
25:44
kids lunch money that sort of thing
25:45
those kinds of patterns yeah the play
25:49
devil’s advocate though couldn’t that
25:51
just be a symptom of bad parents sure it
25:53
could absolutely but you’d absolutely
25:55
get a disorder diagnosed you could yeah
25:57
because even still that bad bad
26:00
parenting has is the predictor of lots
26:02
of psychiatric disorders you know what
26:04
I’m saying so at the end of the day
26:05
parenting has a lot to do with what what
26:08
gets shape is it is it a guarantee so if
26:11
a person has a traumatic neglectful or
26:14
invalidating childhood is that a
26:16
guarantee that things will go wrong for
26:17
them and dealt with it absolutely not
26:19
but is it a vulnerability absolutely
26:22
what does it mean to be a psychopath ah
26:25
so here’s where things start getting
26:26
until we get into sort of interesting
26:28
sort of semantics territory here to be a
26:31
psychopath it’s a term that probably
26:34
ascribes best to this thing we’re
26:36
calling antisocial personality disorder
26:38
so psychopathy is not a diagnostic
26:41
it’s a descriptive term it’s a
26:43
sociological term but it’s definitely
26:45
not a diagnostic term okay but
26:48
researchers will use it and that sort of
26:49
thing so what’s psychopathy is somebody
26:52
who tends to be very calculating
26:55
manipulative cunning smart malevolent
27:00
dangerous exploitative they have very
27:04
little empathy they don’t really think
27:07
through the consequences of their
27:08
actions they really don’t care about the
27:10
consequences of their actions
27:12
they break rules ethics laws they
27:15
violate moral codes they’re deceitful a
27:18
real picnic yeah love to meet one of
27:20
those but there it’s not actually you
27:24
can’t be diagnosed as a psychic yeah you
27:25
so if a person met those criteria and
27:28
they had this is a long-standing pattern
27:29
for them since childhood we call it
27:31
antisocial personality disorder yeah I
27:32
understood what about a sociopath so
27:35
sociopath this is where people get very
27:37
confused
27:37
okay so psychopathy and sociopathy are
27:40
very like you know they’re leagues of
27:41
Venn diagrams there’s a lot of overlap
27:43
but there’s definitely they’re distinct
27:44
entities the sociopath in many ways is
27:48
not as glib socially skilled successful
27:52
and manifest is well put together in the
27:55
way the psychopath does the psychopath
27:57
in some ways is more chilling because
27:59
they have an absolute lack of empathy
28:02
and if they have a relationship with
28:04
someone it is solely exploitative it’s
28:07
to get something from them sex money
28:09
power connections you name it the
28:12
sociopath in they’re very unskilled way
28:15
might get into a human relationship but
28:18
they still don’t have any empathy and in
28:20
that relationship they still remain very
28:22
cold and and stand still somewhat
28:25
calculating but really more cold and
28:27
rejecting the psychopath makes a better
28:29
criminal the sociopath tends to be a
28:31
messy sloppy and reactive your sociopath
28:34
is your bar fighter the psychopath is a
28:37
person who will kill that person three
28:39
days later methodically you see what I’m
28:41
saying so it’s like the sociopath tends
28:42
to be more reactive they tend to be more
28:44
sloppy
28:45
they tend don’t tend to be as planful
28:47
they’re not as sophisticated as the
28:49
psychopath who tends to be coolly
28:51
efficient and in that way almost more
28:53
dangerous
28:54
because there was a book that was that
28:58
was written called the mask of sanity
29:00
and that’s where they were described he
29:02
was describing Psychopaths in that book
29:04
and it was this idea that the psychopath
29:07
can look sane because they actually
29:09
there was some research that estimates
29:11
that corporate heads like heads of major
29:13
corporations of all kinds the rates of
29:16
psychopathy and those folks is five to
29:18
twenty one percent to twenty one so
29:21
depending on how you measure psychopathy
29:22
that would be one out of five major CEOs
29:25
as hell yeah yeah yeah because those are
29:28
there’s all the stuff that the the power
29:30
drive the the willingness has that sort
29:33
of taking a prisoner’s attitude to power
29:36
in this absolutely almost scarily
29:38
surgically precise focused way that’s
29:41
very profitable in preparing for this
29:43
interview I was researching the term
29:45
psychopathy and it was almost I would
29:48
say 80% of the time correlated with
29:50
serial killers almost like it was an
29:53
interchangeable term like almost all
29:55
serial killers are psychopaths probably
29:57
almost all of them are because there’s
29:59
there’s a precision to being a serial
30:02
killer right because in order to be a
30:03
serial killer you have to have killed
30:05
two or more people so you got away with
30:07
one right so you got away with one and
30:10
there’s some there tends to be some very
30:12
stereotypical killing the keeping of
30:17
trophies the taunting of law enforcement
30:19
almost getting some pride out of getting
30:23
everyone in the world rattled and paying
30:24
attention to what you’re doing if you
30:26
even think of folks like the Son of Sam
30:27
as OD a killer they were actually
30:29
writing letters to the newspapers and to
30:32
journalists and even to the police – you
30:34
know even Jack the Ripper did that yeah
30:36
and so it’s this sense that there’s
30:38
something again very methodical and
30:40
there’s almost a sadistic pleasure that
30:42
they’re deriving from committing these
30:45
crimes that’s very much the Psychopaths
30:47
game because it’s very planful they
30:49
think about it I just I just can’t
30:51
believe that those people who are likely
30:54
a psychopath and perhaps one out of
30:57
every five see also a psychopath are the
31:00
same cat well look about where the
31:01
overlaps are the utter lack of empathy
31:03
the precision the singular focus yeah
31:07
very
31:08
those oh and could you have no because
31:12
you have to have let her lack of empathy
31:13
I was thinking could you have a
31:14
psychopath who uses his makeup for good
31:17
but it’s not that way
31:19
no because ultimately it’s self-serving
31:21
so I guess maybe the only way you might
31:22
see that is let’s say you have a
31:23
psychopath out there who is running this
31:26
incredibly successful corporation but in
31:28
order to sort of launder money or to
31:30
distract people raises tens and tens of
31:33
millions of dollars for charitable
31:34
causes and that money really does go to
31:38
protecting people feeding people giving
31:41
them health care or something like that
31:43
so it’s dirty money yeah but people get
31:45
helped and let’s face it that does
31:46
happen it’s a philanthropic psychopathy
31:49
so you know it’s money laundering to
31:51
them people benefit I mean I guess
31:54
viewers out there could think about is
31:56
it worth it if somebody gets help that
31:58
they wouldn’t gotten helped otherwise
31:59
but the money came from a really
32:01
manipulative place out of curiosity if
32:04
you’re watching this do you feel like
32:07
your boss is one of those who are 5% or
32:10
21% likely to be a psychopath I’ve never
32:13
worked for a psychopath I can say that
32:15
you know I don’t think I have worked for
32:17
a second but they work for people are
32:18
deeply deeply deeply narcissistic yes a
32:21
full-on psychopath you tend to see them
32:23
in more competitive industries media
32:26
business law maybe even sometimes
32:29
medicine like high-stake athletics that
32:32
kind of military yeah high stakes high
32:36
visibility kinds of spaces where the
32:39
profit lines are high and the stakes are
32:41
high I mean let’s face it when you hire
32:43
people to do a job you’re not doing a
32:45
personality test you’re looking at what
32:47
they can do and if they’re making money
32:48
and you’re hiring for a company then
32:51
you’re gonna look at the person who
32:52
hires money and you may not ask
32:53
questions about what how they’re making
32:56
how they’re getting that done until
32:57
after the fact
32:58
window someone going back to entice or
33:00
antisocial personality disorder when
33:03
does someone cross the line between or
33:05
from suave confidence to antisocial
33:09
personalities well I mean obviously
33:10
someone being suave and confident is not
33:12
a is not a diagnosis or an indictment it
33:15
is to me actually when I made soft
33:16
people I actually get I get really put
33:19
off like to me now charming people are
33:20
terrifying
33:21
that is wrong money yeah it’s a Romany
33:23
tats like personal life charming people
33:25
I tend to excuse myself to the restroom
33:27
and I will often join another table or
33:29
something it terrifies okay so if we
33:31
didn’t know each other and we’re at a
33:32
party and I go oh doctor rowdy I’ve seen
33:34
her videos on red circle let me get you
33:36
a drink you look fantastic tonight I
33:38
love your shoes wow you’re so smart
33:40
intelligent you would go oh my gosh
33:41
thank you you have lost me I love your
33:43
shoes I noticed probably start watching
33:48
how after these mental health
33:50
professionals I tend to be very
33:52
complimentary yeah but complimentary
33:54
that but then there’s a point to which
33:55
like I don’t watch your angle yeah no
33:57
that’s the so that that’s that it that
33:59
that’s the the struggle there so this
34:01
idea then where’s the line right suave
34:04
and charming and sophisticated in all of
34:06
that what you’re looking though to is to
34:08
see is our empathy is there a meaningful
34:11
give-and-take in the conversation are
34:13
they looking through you or are they
34:15
looking at you is are they actually
34:18
interested in what you’re saying and if
34:19
you continue to spend time with them are
34:21
they present are they are they
34:24
reciprocal are they warm how do they
34:27
treat other people so obviously if
34:29
they’re not mistreating other people if
34:31
they don’t have a track record of having
34:33
done bad things that kind of thing then
34:35
then they’re not that then they’re suave
34:36
and charming yeah and they’re not a
34:38
psychopath no obviously not almost
34:40
charming people are not psychopaths yeah
34:43
but it’s again when you do what I do
34:46
charm gets scary well let’s dive deeper
34:48
into that what does the average person
34:51
who has antisocial personality disorder
34:53
look like where do they what do that
34:56
physically look like how do they dress
34:58
how do they carry themselves that’s a
34:59
tricky question because there is no
35:01
average person with antisocial
35:02
personality disorder you can find people
35:04
with antisocial personality disorder
35:06
everywhere from death row to the best
35:09
table at the best restaurant in Los
35:10
Angeles so it’s one bit is how they got
35:13
there you know in both instances yeah
35:16
absolutely that their and their
35:17
personality sort of is likely what got
35:19
them there so they look very different
35:20
they can be in a $5,000 suit or a ten
35:24
dollar prison jumpsuit they can be in a
35:26
they can be in any number of professions
35:29
they could be any race definitely
35:32
proportionately more men
35:34
more men how many more do you think I
35:36
would say it’s a gosh if I were to spit
35:38
box I don’t know the numbers off from
35:39
top of my head I would hazard a guess
35:41
that’s probably five to one eight to one
35:43
men versus what I’m doing eight to one
35:44
yeah something like that yeah it’s a
35:45
quite a few many more men are there’s
35:49
are there women with antisocial
35:50
personalities we’re out there of course
35:51
there are from the course but for sure
35:54
you’d see it the only thing I could say
35:56
in common is this would be a man that’s
35:59
the best I got for you you know but
36:01
beyond that like I said they could be
36:02
successful they may not be successful
36:04
they could be living in the streets they
36:06
could be living in a mansion that’s
36:08
where it’s interesting whereas with
36:10
other mental illnesses we might actually
36:12
see sort of a truncation but even there
36:14
we look at substance abusers they can be
36:16
fabulously wealthy or they can be living
36:17
in the streets you know there can be any
36:18
race or ethnicity they could be you know
36:20
I you know any gender it doesn’t it
36:23
doesn’t matter you are the country’s
36:25
leading expert on narcissism perhaps the
36:27
world’s leading expert on our system I
36:29
think that would be very narcissistic
36:31
that’s why you’re the expert you already
36:33
cut it out how is this different though
36:35
than narcissism it’s a very good
36:37
question what I view them I’ve used them
36:39
as on a continuum and here’s a good rule
36:40
of thumb all people with psychopathy are
36:44
narcissistic not all narcissistic people
36:47
are psychopathic okay and in that way I
36:50
would say nearly all people with
36:52
antisocial personality disorder are
36:54
narcissistic but not the other way not
36:57
all people in our statistic personality
36:58
sort of have antisocial personality sir
37:00
I would never diagnose both if you have
37:02
antisocial personality disorder it’s a
37:04
built-in that you have many many traits
37:06
of narcissistic personality so it’s it’s
37:09
a continuum of sorts it really is and so
37:12
narcissism sort of there’s a form of
37:14
narcissism we sort of term malignant or
37:17
toxic narcissism these are people who
37:19
have all the stuff associate with
37:21
narcissism like the lack of empathy
37:22
entitlement etc etc but there’s also a
37:25
really hard manipulative exploitative
37:28
edge to them and they tend to be the
37:31
more deceitful interpersonally brutal
37:34
narcissists and then when you look at
37:37
what a psychopath or a person with
37:38
antisocial personality disorder now you
37:40
jump the rails into a space where a
37:43
person does not feel remorse for the bad
37:45
things they do people with narcissism
37:48
actually do feel guilty or shameful when
37:51
they do a bad thing they don’t they are
37:54
they well more shame than Gayle Koosh
37:56
aims a very public emotion but they will
37:58
definitely they’ll definitely feel bad
38:01
about it whereas a person with
38:03
antisocial personality sort of a
38:04
psychopathy in general won’t as a
38:06
technical matter and this is a it’s a
38:09
fine point but I want to make it the way
38:11
DSM allows us to diagnose antisocial
38:15
personality disorder symptom number
38:19
seven is the one that’s called lack of
38:21
remorse okay that there’s a specific
38:23
symptom called lack of remorse you can
38:25
get the diagnosis though even if you do
38:29
feel remorse and I struggle with that
38:30
because I have interviewed and in my
38:34
research we’ve interviewed many people
38:36
who will say I did a bunch of really bad
38:38
stuff and I did this bad stuff because I
38:41
was living in a very dangerous
38:42
neighborhood in Los Angeles I came up
38:44
with the wrong kids I get that I had an
38:46
abusive family I was gang involved we
38:49
stole we assaulted I did time and I feel
38:53
awful about the lives I’ve ruined and
38:54
they’re very in they’re genuine they’ve
38:56
done their time and they’re actually now
38:57
devoting their lives to better work
38:59
they’re participating in research like
39:01
they feel bad yeah and there’s the
39:02
remorse rang true so they didn’t get in
39:04
our research they didn’t get that but
39:06
they still got the diagnosis I guess do
39:08
you see what I’m saying where
39:09
psychopathy requires that lack of
39:11
remorse that’s right
39:12
well dr. Romani and I sat down for an
39:15
entire series on narcissism and if you’d
39:17
like to watch that here is a little
39:19
preview
39:20
[Music]
39:20
[Applause]
39:23
so when we talk about narcissistic
39:25
personality disorder there’s a long list
39:28
of patterns and they have to have five
39:30
of the nine on that list it has to be
39:32
something we call pervasive meaning it
39:35
cuts across situations with a variety of
39:36
people in at work at home it’s not just
39:40
like their narcissistic to only you and
39:42
they’re nice and nice to everyone in the
39:43
world tends to be pervasive but here’s
39:45
the rub it has to involve what we call
39:48
social and occupational impairment and
39:52
subjective distress that’s a fancy way
39:54
of saying it is messing up that person’s
39:57
life they’re aware it’s messing up their
39:59
life and they’re uncomfortable with it
40:01
and that’s where you don’t see as many
40:04
people with narcissistic personality
40:05
disorder
40:06
dr. Romany kin sociopathic or can
40:11
someone have sociopathic and
40:13
psychopathic traits without having
40:15
antisocial personality disorder yes they
40:17
can actually you can see that now here’s
40:19
a rub it’s like began antisocial
40:21
personality disorder has such a sort of
40:23
specific diagnostic set of criteria you
40:25
know terms of this the early life
40:28
experience and all of that that you know
40:30
you may have that person who is coolly
40:33
efficient and manipulative and
40:36
singularly focused on success and lacks
40:39
empathy and exploits other people maybe
40:42
they’ll come in right under the
40:43
threshold at this point we’re sort of
40:45
really where we’re splitting hairs mmm
40:49
does that make sense who cares what the
40:51
word is thank you you know I mean it is
40:54
it’s dangerous it’s problematic you know
40:56
my work in this area is very much
40:58
focused on how people how these how
41:01
people with these patterns affect people
41:03
in relationships I can tell you this now
41:05
people with psychopathy and sociopathy
41:08
100% are not built for close intimate
41:10
relationships they just don’t they
41:12
cannot put the roots down deep and I
41:14
think what ends up happening is cuz
41:16
they’re so smooth and charm and glib and
41:19
successful they absolutely draw partners
41:22
in many times for the psychopathy it’s
41:24
like a it’s like big-game hunting they
41:27
just want the trophy they want the prize
41:28
of it all or they value that partner
41:31
they’re very attractive
41:32
they’re very wealthy
41:34
successful they may be a bridge to
41:35
something they want or they just want
41:36
sex yeah I mean it can literally be that
41:38
that’s simple and in fact you do see
41:40
that in when we look at the hare
41:43
psychopathy checklist which is a very
41:45
famous frequently used checklist
41:48
research the hair like hair hair like
41:51
but hair like a bunny the hare
41:53
psychopathy checklist in that checklist
41:56
one of the things actually one of the
41:57
items gets at their inability to be in
42:00
long-term relationships like they have
42:01
very short term marriages kind of thing
42:04
because often times they’re exploitative
42:05
they want something and they get out or
42:07
they just have very brief sexual unions
42:09
are very sexually exploitative they’ll
42:11
you know they’ll use people for sex and
42:13
you know and then just sort of spit them
42:15
up and chew them out and leave them you
42:16
know leave them out and so people are
42:18
very hurt by that
42:19
and they’ll say gosh she was so charming
42:21
you seem so into me and but that’s
42:23
because they’re so charming and when
42:24
that’s why you avoid that’s why that’s
42:26
why I avoid charming people because
42:27
really their damage comes from the fact
42:29
that if you don’t know what you’re
42:30
dealing with it’s so easy to get drawn
42:32
in because it feels like a fairy tale
42:34
it really no little do we know that like
42:37
many fairy tale princes probably are
42:39
psychopaths okay it’s a it’s a nudist
42:43
fairytale princes are most likely a
42:46
psychopath they’re just a little too
42:47
charming I mean I think you know we
42:49
don’t do their name Prince Charming yeah
42:50
Prince Charming yeah Prince Charming
42:52
it’s more Prince psychopathy today yeah
42:55
by the way when people meet you now
42:58
they’re not gonna be very nice to you I
43:00
feel like beyond that circle not a lot
43:03
just an appropriate amount like there’s
43:06
the narcissism woman I’m like no no not
43:08
really if I actually successful dick but
43:12
instead actually stop and make sure
43:14
everyone’s okay very funny uh this does
43:18
come with a lot of co-occurring
43:19
disorders yes
43:20
what are the most common an antisocial
43:22
personality disorder the co-occurring
43:24
disorders we most often see are
43:26
substance use disorders interestingly
43:29
you might actually see depression but
43:32
it’s probably wonder diagnosed because
43:34
they won’t we would probably present
43:35
more as irritability yeah what we call
43:39
impulse control disorders but that the
43:41
impulse control might be like they lash
43:43
out of people road rage intermittent
43:45
explosive disorder but we may not
43:46
diagnose
43:47
both because it’s likely that their rage
43:49
and stuff is subsumed under the
43:50
antisocial personality disorder but
43:52
really the most common comorbid
43:54
diagnosis is going to be substance use
43:56
are there different forms of antisocial
43:58
personality disorder you know in the in
44:00
the diagnostic manual there’s not
44:01
there’s antisocial personality disorder
44:03
and it doesn’t have different kinds of
44:05
it doesn’t have different kinds of
44:07
descriptors if you will in my research
44:10
we’ve actually sometimes split them out
44:11
by people who report having remorse
44:13
versus those who don’t so it’s not
44:16
really differentiated in that way in
44:18
fact the research on psychopathy
44:19
actually makes it takes the time to
44:21
distinguish between psychopathy and
44:23
sociopathy or between primary and
44:26
secondary side copy there’s different
44:27
ways you can slice and dice that pie and
44:29
a lot of it has to do with the the
44:31
forward-facing characteristics how
44:33
intelligent well-put-together articulate
44:35
smart charming glib all that stuff we
44:38
associated with success and that
44:41
precision that’s sort of different than
44:43
what I call kind of like the sloppy bar
44:45
fight psychopathy or sociopathy yes why
44:48
or rather what would not be considered
44:53
antisocial person a personality disorder
44:55
but often is what type of behavior um I
44:58
would say that I mean again many people
45:02
that mistakenly have called narcissists
45:04
mmm as having antisocial personality
45:06
disorder but if indeed that narcissists
45:08
is like I can’t believe I did this I’m
45:10
so sorry and they’re they’re apologizing
45:11
and they go do it again that’s probably
45:13
more of the narcissism piece um bipolar
45:16
disorder bipolar disorder could be
45:19
mistakenly diagnosis antisocial
45:21
personality disorder because it’s very
45:23
possible that during a manic phase a
45:25
person’s behavior may drift into the
45:28
illegal they may use a lot of drugs they
45:32
may solicit the services of prostitutes
45:33
and you know behave very badly with them
45:36
they may gamble a lot of money and
45:38
engage in illegal activity to get more
45:40
money to gamble so they may actually
45:42
behave in a way that is risky and in
45:46
violation of the law so we’d have to be
45:48
very very careful to ensure that when
45:52
there were these sorts of upticks of
45:54
illegal behavior that it occurred only
45:56
during a manic up
45:57
so you got to remember an antisocial
45:59
personality the behavior is consistent
46:01
it’s not like six days a week they’re a
46:03
nice guy and only on day seven do they
46:05
go out and put their serial-killer mask
46:06
on they tend to not work well in society
46:10
even when they’re charming and glib they
46:12
don’t tend to have high quality deep
46:13
personal relationships or people
46:15
diagnosed with border or antisocial
46:19
personality disorder when in fact
46:20
they’re bipolar they could be but it’s
46:24
good it’s gonna be somebody should catch
46:26
that pretty quick okay you know what I’m
46:27
saying because then they should
46:28
recognize that that person is in an
46:30
episode of mania and this has not been
46:31
their typical pattern of behavior but
46:34
since one of the biggest errors we can
46:35
make is make a diagnosis on the basis of
46:37
a snapshot if all you did was focus on
46:40
one day of one person’s manic episode
46:42
yeah you could easily then completely
46:44
call it something it’s not so that’s why
46:46
we have to look at psychiatric patterns
46:48
over time and so also in some substance
46:51
abuse disorders I could see how somebody
46:53
who has a diagnosis of certain forms of
46:55
substance abuse particularly activating
46:58
drugs like cocaine or methamphetamine
47:00
people use those drugs are more likely
47:02
to engage in risky behavior they may
47:04
engage in illegal activities procure the
47:06
drug they may sell the drug they may
47:08
engage in high-risk sexual activities
47:10
while they use the drug and if they’re
47:12
an addict and they’re using regularly
47:13
that may contribute to the likelihood
47:16
that they’re engaging in these high-risk
47:17
illegal behaviors which over time could
47:20
look like antisocial personality
47:22
disorder what would have to happen is
47:24
get that person off the drugs get them
47:25
clean see if the behavior changes or not
47:27
I make a point to say this in almost
47:30
every series because for me it is it is
47:33
the difference between mental health
47:35
therapy working or not and that is
47:37
people must must must get the right
47:40
diagnosis absolutely and do not take
47:43
that as a new label or a new terrible
47:46
thing that’s wrong with you only take it
47:48
as that that’s the next step to get the
47:50
right treatment well any in fact we
47:52
don’t have to call it a diagnosis we can
47:53
call it a pattern this is the pattern I
47:55
think I’m very I’ve been really we’re
47:58
talking about depression per se I’m sad
47:59
I’m more irritable than usual da da da
48:01
da da da you know so it’s we’re looking
48:03
at patterns and these are patterns that
48:05
make a person uncomfortable and make it
48:08
so that they’re not achieving at their
48:10
fullest potential
48:11
because really my goal as a therapist is
48:14
to get a person to achieve at their
48:17
fullest potential
48:18
to be the best version of themselves dr.
48:21
sue Varma in New York we did a series
48:22
with her on depression she goes my job
48:25
is to give people what you just said an
48:27
optimal life that’s what I do people go
48:31
yeah but I can deal with it
48:32
I don’t you could you could why why
48:35
don’t we work hard to make it even
48:36
better right I love that yes that’s good
48:38
I want people to understand what we’re
48:40
doing here is providing the education
48:42
right so that they can get into the
48:45
right people get the right diagnosis and
48:47
get the right thing and you Kylie I want
48:48
to say something to that because I know
48:49
many people who watch Med Circle have
48:52
lived with an experience or may even
48:53
currently be experiencing mental health
48:56
or mental illness issues I always say to
48:58
people this is part of your story
49:01
and if you’ve come through this and you
49:04
will come through this that that’s part
49:06
of your strength and resilience and it’s
49:08
not a piece of you to be forgotten
49:10
because I work with clients for example
49:11
who are health care practitioners who
49:13
are teachers and we can use this as a
49:16
way say you have an empathy that someone
49:19
else may not and you may be gentler with
49:21
a patient or you may be kinder to a
49:24
student and to me I think that many
49:26
times that people who’ve walked through
49:28
the fires that can be harnessed in a way
49:31
that actually can not only bring you to
49:33
a fuller potential but benefit the
49:35
people around you it’s really like
49:36
spinning straw into gold
49:38
so I think that that’s what’s absolutely
49:39
critical as people don’t view this as
49:41
there’s something wrong with you there’s
49:43
absolutely nothing wrong with you
49:43
everything’s right we just want to get
49:45
you to a better place but that you can
49:48
use part of this this part of your story
49:50
to enhance the lives of others mmm
49:53
that’s so beautiful I would love to
49:55
leave it right there but I have more
49:56
questions I can’t leave it on that
49:59
perfect note that you just gave me when
50:02
it comes to antisocial personality
50:04
disorder what am I not asking you that I
50:07
need to be asking you you know
50:09
antisocial personality disorder the big
50:12
question is what if I you know the big
50:16
question around antisocial personality
50:18
sort of really is kind of be treated you
50:20
know to which I’m typically going to say
50:21
the answer’s no in most cases no
50:25
we do know that over time people with
50:27
antisocial personalities sort of kind of
50:28
get tired out they kind of it’s it gets
50:31
exhausting to be a person who keeps
50:34
breaking the rules at ninety or
50:36
seventy-five like you’ll get tired it’s
50:37
exhausting right but these are patterns
50:42
that are very very very very resistant
50:44
to change these are folks that many
50:47
therapists don’t have the training to
50:49
work with nor do all therapists even
50:51
want to work with this population they
50:52
feel threatened or intimidated and
50:54
nobody should work with a patient
50:55
population they don’t feel comfortable
50:57
with but there’s typically no motivation
51:01
for change because these folks don’t
51:03
think anything’s wrong you know they
51:04
really and and and it’s also the
51:06
question is how does the person becoming
51:08
this way let’s dive into that explain
51:10
first of the born part yes so there is
51:13
you know particularly in the area of
51:14
psychopathy an antisocial personality
51:16
disorder there’s actually been a lot of
51:18
research done on sort of brain function
51:21
in people with with antisocial
51:23
personality disorder and there are
51:25
various brain areas that have been
51:27
implicated the ventromedial prefrontal
51:29
cortex the anterior cingulate cortex the
51:33
amygdala all these fancy names are
51:36
really simply boiled down to somethings
51:38
wrong upstairs you know their brains
51:40
aren’t the same as everybody else’s
51:43
however what these researchers have
51:46
found is that that those brain
51:48
differences in structure and chemistry
51:51
colliding with childhoods that may be
51:55
characterized by abuse neglect violence
52:00
being the victim or witnessing violence
52:03
frankly invalidation emotional abuse
52:07
those things might potentiate any of
52:10
those sorts of structural issues in the
52:13
brain we also know that there are areas
52:14
in the brain that subserve empathy and
52:17
that one reason yeah empathy so the
52:19
research has been done actually with
52:21
people who qualify sort of psychopaths
52:23
or as antisocial personality disorder I
52:25
think they had they had been in prison
52:27
what they found was when they were able
52:31
to tell these the subjects in this
52:33
research to think about something and
52:36
forced them into empathy like they’re
52:38
told them a story
52:39
and say can you really stop and think
52:40
how that person in that story felt and
52:43
the person concentrated and how that
52:45
person felt that area of the brain lit
52:46
up but it wouldn’t have happened
52:47
naturally for them so they don’t
52:49
naturally find themselves to empathy so
52:51
they’re capable of what we might call
52:52
cognitive empathy they’re like yeah I
52:54
can get that and that area of the brain
52:55
will light up but it doesn’t happen
52:56
spontaneously so a relationship isn’t
52:59
really possible with them but it’s not
53:00
entirely broken you can turn the system
53:02
on Wow
53:04
now if I just take my glasses off when I
53:08
get excited if a child is born with
53:11
something not functioning correctly
53:13
upstairs and it is a psychopathic or
53:16
sociopathic tendency and they don’t have
53:19
an environment that is violent they
53:21
actually live in a very supportive
53:23
environment can it can you raise
53:26
somebody not to be that way I have read
53:27
case literature of exactly what you’re
53:29
describing a kid who is actually from
53:31
the loving home parents who love them
53:34
you know a nurturing environment plenty
53:36
of resources they weren’t it wasn’t an
53:38
impoverished or dangerous community or
53:40
anything and that child started
53:42
displaying antisocial tendencies and it
53:45
kept unraveling and they became you know
53:47
violent or predatory or
53:48
poorly behaved adults if you will and it
53:52
you know those are case reports that’s
53:54
not normative that’s definitely a very
53:56
low probability event if you will but
54:00
it’s interesting when you read some of
54:02
the work being done by some of the
54:03
really great researchers in this area
54:06
Adrian rein for example as a guy at the
54:07
University of Pennsylvania and he’s done
54:09
some really great research on
54:11
psychopathy and you know I was reading
54:13
something or an interview done with him
54:15
and he had said like listen we’re gonna
54:16
get to the point where we may be able to
54:18
identify some of these patterns and
54:19
children and if that’s the case we
54:22
really should work with parents to help
54:24
them identify some of these patterns
54:26
early on do you see if we can do some
54:29
intervention with them we’re not quite
54:31
there yet but I must say that when we
54:32
see kids who are engaging in patterns of
54:34
behavior like bullying or acting out we
54:37
have to spend the time to do the
54:39
necessary assessments to determine why
54:41
what might be going on for that child
54:43
both at home and in school and what
54:46
behaviors are manifesting because it is
54:49
possible in some of these cases if we
54:50
could get ahead of some of this
54:52
then sure we might be able to engage in
54:54
some prevention work but it’s that’s
54:57
difficult to do you know you can only
54:59
mandate so much that I understand when
55:01
you we have the behavior we try to fix
55:04
it you’re saying just on the basis of
55:05
the brain yeah because that’s the the
55:07
mental health landscape mm-hmm is so
55:11
great yeah and what’s so frustrating to
55:14
a lot of people is that it’s just a
55:17
experts opinion whether or not their kid
55:20
has ADHD or their kid has bipolar
55:22
disorder or that their cousin is
55:24
depressed it’s just somebody’s opinion
55:26
right so when we can have something more
55:29
definitive that can be test that’s so
55:31
exciting to that’s what the hope has
55:32
been in and of all the personality
55:34
disorders really antisocial personality
55:37
disorder is the area where a lot of this
55:38
work on the central nervous system and
55:40
the activity of the central nervous
55:42
system is being conducted and you know
55:45
the challenge is what do you do you give
55:47
everyone in America a brain scan no you
55:50
see what I’m saying so it’s sort of like
55:52
where do we go with this and the
55:54
findings right now are very subtle a lot
55:56
of them happen after the fact so a
55:58
person goes and does bad things and then
56:01
we do the scan
56:02
what other things happen in their life
56:03
that’s right you know and some of the
56:05
research hasn’t been as good at sort of
56:06
describing how much abuse or deprivation
56:11
or all those other kinds of conditions
56:12
are present how much of that shaped
56:15
their brains and that’s the thing the
56:16
brain is shaped by its environment so
56:19
you have a bit we’re kind of doing
56:20
playing a chicken egg chase game here
56:22
and but definitely both things are at
56:25
play there are vulnerable brains out
56:27
there and when that vulnerable brain
56:29
meets an invalidating environment that’s
56:32
where that’s sadly where the issues
56:34
arise do you think we would ever get to
56:38
a point where we would do a scan on kids
56:43
for scan their brain and we could say
56:47
yes they are likely to be a sociopath or
56:51
psychopath not in our lifetimes I don’t
56:53
think so I think that I wouldn’t be
56:55
surprised if slowly we get to remember
56:56
the brain is a very complicated it’s a
56:59
very complicated system it’s not so
57:01
simple it’s like there’s like a little
57:02
it’s other organs are much more
57:05
right other organ systems are a lot more
57:07
straightforward but the brain the brain
57:09
hides four secrets and you know you
57:12
could have four scans that look similar
57:13
and yet the behavioral manifestations
57:15
could be quite different because it’s an
57:17
intersection of so many things the
57:20
person’s everything from the person’s
57:22
gender to their ethnicity to where they
57:24
live to what their parents did to what
57:26
kinds of early environment they have you
57:28
know there’s it’s not that simple it
57:30
would that it were would that it were
57:32
but we’re not there that this this
57:34
extraordinary thing called the brain is
57:36
you know that allows us to do everything
57:38
from you know write poetry to fall in
57:40
love to drive a car it’s it’s not that
57:43
simple and I don’t think we’re gonna get
57:45
it we want it to be that simple we want
57:47
to be able to predict these patterns I
57:50
think it’s a pretty high order as is it
57:52
so it feels like a science fiction film
57:54
to me but who knows maybe maybe
57:56
neuroscience will prove me wrong do you
57:59
think or is there any proof that any of
58:03
this is hereditary there is some
58:06
evidence showing that it runs in
58:08
families now it’s particularly
58:10
father-to-son and as we talked about
58:12
these rates are higher in men when we
58:14
talk about antisocial personality
58:16
disorder from a more biological model
58:19
one of the things we talk about is
58:21
something called the autonomic nervous
58:23
system the autonomic nervous system has
58:26
an arm of it called the sympathetic
58:27
nervous system that we’ve popularly
58:29
referred to as the fight-or-flight
58:30
system but the autonomic nervous system
58:33
is associated with arousal so when we
58:36
get worked up about anything when we’re
58:37
frightened when we’re anxious you know
58:39
anything that is threatening up to us we
58:42
get aroused our heart rate increases we
58:45
sweat our eyes become wide we become
58:49
short of breath those are sort of we get
58:52
our skin you know we put a hair stand up
58:54
on edge kind of thing all those our
58:56
autonomic signs the belief is that
58:58
people with antisocial personality
58:59
disorder have a lower autonomic arousal
59:02
meaning that under conditions of fear or
59:05
threat they don’t get as aroused which
59:07
is why they’re willing to take risks and
59:08
they don’t have the same anxiety we
59:11
avoid things that make us anxious right
59:12
they don’t get anxious so they don’t
59:13
avoid those same things that are really
59:15
high
59:15
risk and in fact there’s research that
59:17
shows that people with psychopathy have
59:19
a lower resting heart rates they just
59:21
are more under aroused so sometimes that
59:24
manifests in them getting into really
59:25
dangerous thrill-seeking types of sports
59:27
because they almost want to feel the
59:30
arousal the rest of us feel on a regular
59:32
basis day after day and that low it’s
59:34
believed that that that autonomic
59:36
nervous system under arousal could be
59:38
inherited in our first video you and I
59:42
ever made I think it was our first one
59:43
you told a story saying that they could
59:47
be in a car with a dead body in the
59:50
trunk and get pulled over by the police
59:52
and be they won’t probably call totally
59:55
cool
59:56
absolutely the place are those the thats
59:59
a sociopath that’s a psychopath or a
60:01
psychopath and they are born Psychopaths
60:05
tend to be more born sociopaths are
60:07
probably a little bit more made you know
60:09
and I mean that’s a rule of thumb that’s
60:11
not perfect science but definitely use
60:13
that you see that that that sociopathy
60:15
tends to be a bit more a byproduct of
60:17
the chaotic or negligent early
60:21
environment whereas psychopathy you
60:25
could have that you can definitely have
60:27
the negligent early environment it’s
60:28
probably likely but either’s likely also
60:30
that biological sort of piece again the
60:32
sociopaths tend to be a bit more sloppy
60:34
messy reactive what age in your personal
60:41
experience do you find Psychopaths or
60:43
sociopaths being diagnosed you can’t
60:44
diagnose them until they’re over 18 I
60:46
don’t think it’s a reliable diagnosis
60:48
none of the personality disorders are
60:50
diagnosed in adolescence except for the
60:54
conduct disorder conduct disorder is not
60:57
a personality disorder it’s a childhood
60:59
disorder oh so you could diagnose a kid
61:01
with conduct disorder okay because they
61:03
keep breaking the rules right it’s
61:05
possible that kid will not go on to
61:06
develop antisocial personality sort of
61:08
if you’re really really really really
61:09
lucky they’d be put into some perhaps a
61:11
juvenile center where they really get
61:13
good rehabilitative care and they don’t
61:15
commit crime again
61:16
I mean the odds are not in your favor
61:18
but it can happen that way so conduct
61:20
disorder is a disorder of childhood
61:22
personality disorders are only diagnosed
61:24
in adulthood we’re making we’re making
61:27
room for the fact that the personality
61:28
can
61:29
used to evolve shape and grow during the
61:32
adolescent years into emerging adulthood
61:34
I actually really wouldn’t feel
61:36
comfortable giving a definitive
61:37
diagnosis of a personality disorder and
61:39
anyone who’s much younger than 20 or 21
61:41
that’s so fascinating that was my next
61:44
question to where you would feel
61:45
comfortable yeah I mean I would talk
61:47
about patterns I say you definitely have
61:49
the traits here but you also have a
61:50
teenager and I can tell you as the
61:52
parent of teenagers I think I’ve
61:54
probably seen what it feels like every
61:55
personality disorders symptoms and them
61:58
you know like wow they’re being really
61:59
she still love them but I was like oh my
62:03
gosh you know and that’s where I really
62:05
learned that teenagers are up down and
62:07
all around and they are again that’s
62:08
just that’s a developmental issue and
62:10
that’s why we want to be very careful
62:11
the last thing you want to do is toss a
62:14
label on it adolescent who’s coming into
62:17
their own and make them pathologize this
62:20
process of them trying to find
62:21
themselves and if we look at any of
62:23
ourselves when we are teenagers like we
62:25
were anything but graceful oh goodness
62:27
that is the truth mm-hmm in regards to
62:30
antisocial personality disorders what
62:33
demographic besides men do you find more
62:37
effective this is where it gets a little
62:38
tricky socio-politically unfortunately
62:41
what we see in this is something that as
62:42
I’ve reviewed the literature from my
62:44
research that these patterns tend to be
62:46
over diagnosed and people from
62:49
lower-income groups and ethnic minority
62:52
groups and the belief is it’s that’s
62:54
because those groups are also
62:56
disproportionately incarcerated and the
62:58
target of law enforcement so the belief
63:02
is that it’s almost like the sense of
63:03
pathologizing people who are different
63:05
than the norm and that’s why those
63:08
statistics I think we have to be very
63:09
very very careful with so again these
63:13
disorders don’t know to discriminate per
63:15
se but since they’re based on moral
63:18
social ethical and legal codes and those
63:21
codes are enforced by other entities
63:24
there’s now you’re bringing politics in
63:27
you see that’s where it gets tricky and
63:28
that which those things don’t belong in
63:30
mental health but we have to be mindful
63:31
of them so we and in fact what we do
63:34
sometimes see is that sometimes women
63:36
who probably have antisocial personality
63:39
disorder will get misdiagnosed with
63:41
another syndromes
63:42
borderline personality disorder because
63:44
we don’t think of women as having
63:46
antisocial personality disorder and so
63:48
and there are men out there who might
63:50
very well have borderline personality
63:51
sort of who get diagnosed with
63:52
antisocial personality disorder
63:54
so things like gender race social class
63:57
is those other things for matter when a
63:59
therapist or psychiatrist brings their
64:02
own personal you know prejudices and
64:05
yeah their practice bias bias by just
64:08
the normal ice bias and that’s why that
64:10
you know ideally you have multiple pairs
64:12
of eyes on case data which you don’t
64:14
always have you know because I’ve been
64:16
surprised when I do every so often get
64:19
to see you know past you know diagnostic
64:22
you know systems late on a client I’m
64:24
like really you know I got to say I’m
64:26
not seeing it this way so it’s not it’s
64:28
not a precise science that’s why these
64:30
these labels don’t tell us much I think
64:31
we’re better off focusing on patterns
64:33
yeah I’ve had patterns in our lifetime
64:37
what do you hope or think that we could
64:41
develop when it comes to the causes of
64:43
antisocial personality disorder you know
64:45
this is actually I mean a lot of what is
64:47
being done in you know in personality
64:49
just sort of research very much focuses
64:51
on antisocial personality because we do
64:53
know but it’s it’s dangerous to society
64:55
so what do I think we’ll learn I do
64:57
think that newer new newer and newer
65:00
tools neuroimaging tools that look at
65:03
namely functional neuroimaging tools
65:06
that really look in real-time at brain
65:09
function those are going to shed some
65:11
really important light on how these
65:13
brains work differently and then once
65:17
therapies or treatments are applied to
65:19
folks to see if you actually see any
65:21
franc shift in functioning and whether
65:24
that’s also associated with a behavioral
65:27
change you know again these are not
65:29
patterns that are that amenable to
65:31
change I think that we might be able to
65:33
isolate what the snapshot of what this
65:35
looks like in the brain whether we can
65:37
then acts on it you know there the jury
65:40
is out like and it would it then become
65:42
something that’s more medical is there
65:44
medication that could be even is it
65:45
surgical right you know and then you but
65:47
you face bigger bigger ticket issues
65:49
like consent to treatment we are very we
65:52
in the United States of America
65:54
an adult has to consent to treatment
65:56
can’t just crack open a person’s skull
65:58
and start fiddling around in it you just
66:00
know how it works and so I think that as
66:02
much as we think well there could be all
66:03
these magical solutions people have to
66:06
agree to uptake therapy and you know
66:08
there’s reasons for that obviously but
66:11
if a person doesn’t think something’s
66:12
wrong whether it’s psychotherapy whether
66:15
it’s medication whether it’s newer
66:17
therapies you know newer sorts of brain
66:20
stimulation techniques whether it’s
66:22
psychosurgery you a person has to
66:25
consent to that and it has to be really
66:26
medically indicated so we have to be
66:29
careful and how we think about those
66:30
things
66:31
dr. Emily someone comes to you a patient
66:33
and they say my husband is a sociopath I
66:36
am convinced what’s your first reaction
66:38
I first of all hear this regularly and I
66:41
get heartbroken for them mmm because
66:44
what it means that they’ve been enduring
66:46
is somebody who is likely verbally
66:48
abusive or ignoring them neglectful
66:51
lacks empathy is cruel as cold is
66:57
distant is manipulative like they use
66:59
that one word and it gives me some real
67:02
insight into what they’ve been enduring
67:03
and by the time they pick up the phone
67:05
and call me
67:06
it often means they’ve been enduring it
67:07
for a while how severe do the symptoms
67:13
of a sociopath become I mean I mean I
67:17
like all disorders it’s on a range right
67:19
you know I mean it’s not like there’s
67:21
one version obviously in the milder
67:23
levels you’re often talking about
67:24
someone who’s cold angry brooding
67:27
resentful mean-spirited you know at the
67:29
more extreme levels it you’ll you seem
67:31
violence manifested so obviously at the
67:34
more extreme levels you you’re often
67:35
talking about victims of more physical
67:37
domestic violence but I think even at
67:38
the mild levels it can look like
67:40
emotional abuse what if somebody comes
67:42
to you and they say I heard this word
67:45
sociopath and I don’t I’m not really
67:49
sure what it is but I think my husband
67:50
might be one what how can I tell I break
67:54
it down for them because I think a lot
67:55
of people use the word sociopath
67:57
interchangeably with narcissistic yeah
67:59
and like I said these are labels I’m
68:01
interested in the pad or matter I’ll say
68:04
don’t use the word tell me what it’s
68:06
like don’t don’t show me a bucket dump
68:08
tell me show me what’s in it yes okay
68:09
metaphor and so I I say tell me what the
68:12
patterns are and then once they start
68:14
laying it out I say okay here’s what the
68:16
pattern is if it makes you feel better
68:17
to have a word you explain no sometimes
68:20
they want to keep doing digging and
68:21
doing research but then we break down
68:23
that pattern so when somebody is
68:24
experiencing that like I said they’re
68:26
experiencing all those things coldness
68:27
distance manipulation lying all those
68:30
things and it almost doesn’t matter
68:32
whether it’s a sociopath or narcissist
68:34
neither pattern is that amenable to
68:36
change and neither pattern feels good so
68:39
they dump out the bucket and they’re
68:41
pulling out verbal abuse coldness all of
68:46
those things that you mentioned yeah who
68:48
cares what we call it right this type of
68:50
person is unlikely to change no they’re
68:53
not gonna change they’re not going No
68:55
so that leaves that person with two
68:57
options yeah stay with it
69:00
yeah and deal with it or get out and
69:01
when I say they’re not gonna change I
69:03
say that very as you can see reflexively
69:06
let’s say let’s say you get that person
69:09
is like okay I never thought it would
69:12
get to this point you’re leaving let me
69:14
give this a shot and they want to make a
69:17
good-faith attempt in therapy and
69:19
they’re really owning it and they get in
69:21
there and they maybe make some minor
69:23
changes in some small small small small
69:26
small small small percentage of cases
69:29
you might see that since most people out
69:31
there and most people watching are not
69:33
going to be the exception to the rule
69:34
I’m going with the idea that if their
69:36
partner is not endorsing any issues on
69:39
their end that they’re responsible for
69:42
any of this then they likelihood of
69:43
change is zero you know you have to add
69:45
that acknowledgement of change so
69:47
assuming that that’s what this person is
69:49
like they won’t change and when I bring
69:50
it to their attention they look at me
69:53
like you know I that’s great I’m not you
69:56
know there’s nothing wrong with me this
69:57
is you and Laughton blame the person so
69:59
they’ll say you’re an idiot you’re a
70:02
fool maybe you’re the one with a problem
70:04
they’ll then they’ll undergo a whole new
70:06
litany of emotional abuse so you’re
70:08
right the two options are to either get
70:10
out or stay and if they stay to
70:12
understand they’re staying under
70:13
conditions that really aren’t going to
70:14
shift that much but how able are we to
70:18
unbias Lee
70:20
tell a therapist how our significant
70:23
other no I get it every day 10 times a
70:25
day so then people are by the time
70:27
listen you go into a therapist office
70:29
and you’re paying good money why would
70:30
you lie I know I’m not saying that
70:32
they’re lying I’m saying if I say all
70:34
right like I my name is Jennifer and I
70:37
have a husband named Paul and I’m saying
70:39
Paul is manipulative and cold how
70:42
accurate is that because maybe I’m just
70:44
angry okay then in which case you’re
70:46
gonna get your guidance from that
70:47
perspective and that’s why it’s great to
70:49
work with couples right because if you
70:51
get to work with a couple then you get
70:52
to see both sides unfortunately if Paul
70:54
in fact is a sociopath he’s gonna be
70:56
manipulative you know so you have to be
70:58
a really skilled therapist to sort of
70:59
suss that out and smell that out you’d
71:02
be amazed how many clients pull out
71:04
their phone and show me the text
71:05
messages and that’s when I get a real
71:07
sense of it I see the emails this is so
71:10
good yeah I bet you people don’t realize
71:13
that they can even do that with the
71:14
therapist they can’t always some
71:16
therapist listen I’m I when my clients
71:20
come in they might bring in old photo
71:21
albums I welcome all that they show me
71:23
the text messages it helps your
71:25
therapist though any of your viewers
71:27
your therapist may say no and I don’t
71:29
ever want to impugn how another
71:31
therapist works so I’m not saying all of
71:34
us will do that
71:34
I certainly will because I am there
71:37
because of the sheer number of clients I
71:39
work with who have been in narcissistic
71:42
or sociopathic or psychopathic
71:44
relationships it’s really important to
71:46
me to never Gaslight my patients yeah
71:48
you know maybe you’re not telling me the
71:50
truth that’s what the world has been
71:51
telling this person for a while like
71:53
well maybe it’s not that bad
71:54
and they went gasps elated by the world
71:56
and I refuse to be someone who does
71:58
there’s a reason this person picked up
72:01
the phone came to my office once spent
72:04
the money to see me and if it’s to come
72:06
in and say I’m gonna give you this sort
72:08
of mythological version and do I think
72:10
sometimes clients do that absolutely
72:11
absolutely and so then what’s happening
72:14
is probably nothing is changing at home
72:16
because I’m working in good faith so at
72:19
some point they’re either gonna stop
72:19
coming cuz saying nothing you’re doing
72:20
is helping me but but I have to say that
72:24
it is important for me to honor their
72:26
truth is I’m a humanistic therapist and
72:28
I really miss my orientation be
72:30
humanistic existential and a big part of
72:32
that is that your
72:33
is what matters to me and for some
72:35
reason you’re coming in here and saying
72:36
this is your experience of this person
72:38
and it’s not my place to doubt that I
72:40
just want to understand it that is so
72:44
good I love a the permission to bring
72:49
evidence as well call it to a therapist
72:51
who’s open for that you know why they do
72:54
that though Kyle sometimes people bring
72:55
that in because they’ve been doubted by
72:57
everyone and there they feel like
72:59
they’re losing their grip on reality
73:00
that’s what gaslighting does to people
73:02
it’s a doubt it’s a test your reality
73:04
and it could be going on for 20 years
73:05
and sometimes to them they’ve stopped
73:08
trusting their own reality so much that
73:11
they hand over the text messages because
73:13
they don’t think anyone will believe
73:14
them it’s actually a rather
73:15
heartbreaking gesture I am not kidding
73:17
you I’ve had clients come into boxes of
73:20
stuff and you know and I mean it’s
73:21
heartbreaking because I think god no one
73:23
has been listening to this person and
73:25
they literally feel like they’re losing
73:27
their grip on reality and not to me is
73:29
devastating
73:30
so I Jennifer comes in and she’s
73:33
irritated with her husband Paul because
73:35
he’s a sociopath and you tell her look
73:38
the evidence would suggest that he’s a
73:39
sociopath but I would assume Jennifer
73:42
didn’t marry him when he was doing all
73:44
those things yeah here’s the thing with
73:47
these patterns narcissism sociopathy
73:49
psychopathy these are long-standing
73:52
patterns now because of the charm
73:56
particularly we see in psychopathy and
73:58
narcissism they can often keep a lid on
74:00
it long enough to get a ring on it okay
74:04
sociopathy tends to be a bit more sloppy
74:06
I’m not quite sure why people fall for
74:08
that but they do some people just
74:10
desperately want to get married and
74:11
they’re just sort of taking whatever
74:14
person is in front of them they’re like
74:16
okay I guess I can work with this and
74:17
sometimes is that sociopaths don’t tend
74:20
to be as successful as Psychopaths but
74:22
if that person maybe brings enough
74:25
practical characteristics they can live
74:27
with they may be willing initially to
74:29
overlook the rest so know this person
74:30
these red flags were here from the jump
74:33
going back to a conversation we had
74:35
previously in this series about being
74:38
mindful and being aware and conscious
74:41
because when you’re mindful aware and
74:43
conscious you can hopefully see that
74:46
Paul is
74:47
characteristics that are maybe won’t be
74:49
good in a marriage yeah and but people
74:51
are so easily go into denial and then
74:55
get married thinking I’ll get better
74:56
well that’s the biggest mistake a person
74:58
can make any nothing’s gonna get better
74:59
once you’re married if anything I put my
75:01
good bet on things are probably gonna
75:02
get a little worse yeah you know I’ll
75:04
quote my father who’s not a therapist he
75:06
said look it better be so good by the
75:09
time you get married because it’s only
75:10
gonna I mean it’s possible some things
75:14
could get better with time you know but
75:16
we I have to say that it is you’re
75:18
absolutely right and every single client
75:21
I have ever worked with man or woman gay
75:26
or straight you name it Amy culture they
75:30
have said they owned it these signs were
75:32
there all along and if anything they
75:34
feel angry at themselves they feel
75:35
ashamed and embarrassed humiliated why
75:38
didn’t I see this sooner and they’ll own
75:41
it family tradition they wanted to get
75:43
married they wanted to be a parent
75:47
they thought this person could take care
75:49
of them they felt bad for them because
75:50
that they had a bad childhood those are
75:53
those the reasons they get all the way
75:55
in and like we’ll fix this it’s almost
75:57
like we’ll get the house and it’s like a
75:58
fixer-upper
75:59
what could the house and then we’ll fix
76:00
it yeah not a good idea I’ll share a
76:02
personal story I had a six-year
76:05
relationship broke up in therapy about
76:09
it we didn’t break up in therapy but I’m
76:10
in my therapists office reviewing the
76:13
relationship and I brought something up
76:15
that happened in our first few weeks of
76:18
dating and that event occurred
76:21
throughout our relationship and I told
76:24
my therapist yeah but I didn’t know it
76:26
was happening you were in denial I
76:28
wasn’t in denial
76:30
I saw it happen in the beginning he said
76:32
that wasn’t that’s not gonna happen
76:34
anymore and I just didn’t know what was
76:36
happening he wasn’t I’ll you know you
76:37
just chose not to see him and I left his
76:39
office angry because I go who are you to
76:42
tell me that I’m gonna now you know but
76:43
then after a few weeks I came back
76:44
though you were right I was in denial I
76:47
saw it all along I just chose to pretend
76:51
like it wasn’t or make rationalizations
76:53
I mean the other pattern I see folks
76:54
make is like he’s having a bad day at
76:56
work the kids are really noisy his
76:59
father’s been really sick
77:00
I’m wait until we move by the new house
77:03
I mean it never ends right any anyone
77:05
can write those rationalizations and
77:07
while those things may be true their
77:09
causes of stress that kind of bad
77:11
behavior is unacceptable emotional abuse
77:13
is unacceptable any day of the week mmm
77:17
perfect I want to stop it right there
77:20
that was there was so many great
77:21
takeaways and my big one was going to
77:24
the therapist with evidence yeah I’ve
77:28
never done that and I probably should
77:30
have yeah I mean if I said but I warn
77:32
folks that you know like before they
77:34
show up to the therapists office
77:36
bringing a bottle cap with five boxes of
77:39
Records and they end up and they open
77:44
their phone their therapist may say we
77:46
you know I only want to hear about your
77:47
reality they don’t want the therapy to
77:49
be punctured by outside realities like I
77:52
said I respect how other therapists work
77:54
given the nature of the populations I
77:57
work with that I must say it sometimes
77:59
elucidate something and it allows them
78:02
to almost feel heard and it normalizes
78:05
things for them because they’ll
78:06
sometimes say I have to show you this
78:07
because otherwise I am I feel like no
78:11
one could believe something this
78:12
outlandish I say I believe you
78:14
if this helps you by all means you know
78:17
I’m just trying to give them a sense
78:18
that I’m trying to help them feel sane
78:20
and whole again yes by whatever path
78:22
possible yes water what’s the first sign
78:25
someone needs to look at as if they
78:27
think somebody they know is a psychopath
78:28
I mean if you come to find out that
78:31
they’re breaking major rules moral codes
78:35
ethical codes or laws now obviously on a
78:39
first date a person doesn’t I mean
78:41
unless that they’ve got their like their
78:43
I just broke the law bracelet around
78:45
their ankle you know they’re not going
78:50
to I don’t think that most people are
78:53
gonna like put their rap sheet in front
78:55
of you on a first date so you know but
78:58
pay attention even to look at how they
78:59
might handle rule-breaking
79:02
in a relationship I don’t know they
79:06
might take something that doesn’t belong
79:07
to them if you’re you know from a like I
79:10
don’t a place of business or a hotel or
79:11
something it may feel like a small
79:13
transgression
79:14
but it’ll be enough to make you uneasy
79:15
they may share something that they did
79:17
at work that feels like it’s on the
79:19
wrong side of shady you know there’s
79:21
enough of those little things start to
79:23
accumulate and you know the danger is it
79:25
like wow they’re they’re really slick
79:27
like they’re a hustle their player you
79:29
know like you think you’re in some sort
79:30
of cool movie with them but it’s not
79:33
cool it’s actually they’re breaking
79:36
rules and they’re doing it over and over
79:38
again and that might be a sign or a
79:40
signal you know they just are it’s and
79:43
then may end up culminating in more and
79:45
more stuff and you may find it out I
79:46
think one of the most devastating things
79:48
that people have said to me when they’ve
79:50
been in relationships with Psychopaths
79:51
is what they learned down the road they
79:54
come to find out that this person had a
79:56
history of incarceration that they may
79:58
actually be married to someone else at
80:00
the same time that they lied about their
80:02
occupational history that they lied
80:05
about a bills that went unpaid and which
80:08
are now are ruining their credit you
80:09
might go try to buy a house and find out
80:11
oh they had two bankruptcies in their
80:13
past or something so it’s a it may be
80:15
something you don’t learn early on
80:17
nowadays with Google you might be able
80:20
to look into people Psychopaths have a
80:22
tendency to use aliases they may not be
80:24
who you think they are Wow
80:26
does it look do a psychopath look
80:28
different depending on the role they
80:30
take in your life for example a
80:32
significant other versa coworker verse
80:35
absolutely you gotta remember a
80:38
Psychopaths front game is the best game
80:41
in town
80:41
smooth glib charming intelligent
80:46
articulate perfectly put together I mean
80:50
you’re you really need to know what
80:53
you’re looking at to be able to catch
80:54
them in what they’re doing so they’re
80:58
gonna be if they’re trying to attract
80:59
you as a new partner they’re gonna bring
81:01
their a-game if they’re trying to
81:03
impress somebody in the workplace
81:04
they’re gonna bring their a-game however
81:06
if you’re someone who’s disposable or
81:09
dispensable to them or someone they
81:11
views you’re in their service god help
81:14
you is all I have to say if you find
81:16
yourself in a relationship with a
81:18
psychopath or you believe that your
81:20
husband or boyfriend let’s say is a
81:22
psychopath are there any questions you
81:25
could ask them to
81:26
maybe find out if you’re right I would
81:28
say that what you wanted use look for
81:30
inconsistencies in their story and find
81:33
out talk to people who know them now I’m
81:34
not saying you need to go CSI on this
81:36
and start this interrogation of everyone
81:38
who’s ever known them but try to see if
81:41
there’s continuity if the dates line up
81:42
if their life story lines up if you know
81:45
he might have said he went to college in
81:47
one place and another person’s like yeah
81:49
when they graduated they were working at
81:51
this job and you’re like something’s not
81:53
adding up
81:54
psychopaths often go out of their way to
81:57
isolate their partner from other people
81:59
who know their histories look for that
82:02
pattern – why aren’t you being
82:04
introduced to anyone in the past they’ll
82:05
often say I was done wrong and I’ll make
82:07
up some dramatic story about how
82:09
everyone did this to them so they have
82:11
nothing to do with anyone from their
82:13
past that’s pretty rare that somebody
82:15
would cut off everyone all friends all
82:17
family all extended family it may be
82:19
that they’re on a fresh start path and
82:22
they’re sort of reinventing themselves
82:23
and that you’re in the in the you’re in
82:25
the eyeline of a grifter kind of person
82:27
at this point so look for
82:29
inconsistencies psych psychopathy is not
82:32
a diagnosis of all time no but can
82:35
someone have psychopathic tendencies but
82:39
not be a psychopath you know I mean
82:41
they’re you then again you’re splitting
82:42
hairs you’re splitting hairs because
82:44
like because there’s no diagonally if
82:46
you have five psychopathic tendencies
82:47
then you’re a psychopath right you know
82:49
the people who have like really are
82:53
breaking rules in this consistent way
82:54
and they’re cold and they’re and they
82:58
fail to take responsibility and they’re
83:00
deceitful and they’re manipulative and
83:03
they’re exploitative I mean these things
83:04
tend to hang together it’s very rare
83:07
that a person exploits other people but
83:09
then they’re really sweet and they do
83:10
bake sales and they run a Girl Scout
83:12
troop like you’re not going to tend to
83:14
see those things kind of hanging out
83:15
together these things cluster together
83:17
so the more of them you have the more
83:19
likely you are to dealing with somebody
83:21
who is truly a psychopath I like the
83:24
takeaway of looking for inconsistencies
83:26
and this person and if you’re in a
83:31
relationship with them you do have the
83:32
option to leave but if you have a
83:34
co-worker for example you can’t
83:37
necessarily leave them so how do you
83:39
adapt for working with a psychopath
83:41
if you suspect you’re working with a
83:43
psychopath that you what you want to do
83:45
is you really really really want to
83:47
cover your bases
83:49
remember HR is not going to help you
83:51
unless you have documentation you can’t
83:53
walk into a try and say hey the person
83:55
in the next cubicle is a psychopath
83:56
they’ll be like okay that’s I watch the
83:58
red circle of it you know so if you I
84:02
mean I always tell people anytime you
84:04
start on a new job you almost have to be
84:06
kind of paranoid you start you save
84:08
every email you make folders you get
84:10
that stuff off the server you print it
84:12
off like you knows all these steps that
84:14
you really should engage in if you think
84:15
you’re working with a psychopath but you
84:18
want to make sure you document things
84:20
you want to avoid having meetings with
84:22
them one-on-one you want to ensure that
84:23
there’s a third party present you want
84:25
to ensure minutes are being taken of
84:27
meetings you want to you know most times
84:28
people scan minutes and don’t really pay
84:30
attention pay attention to those minutes
84:33
because that might be the only
84:33
documentation you have and then you want
84:38
to make sure you have alliances at work
84:40
people that you can trust but what you
84:41
don’t want to do is gossip about the
84:43
psychopath because they’re better than
84:44
at that than you are they’re already
84:46
stabbing you in the back and numerous
84:48
other places you can’t see you know a
84:50
way ahead of you they’re gonna play this
84:52
game better than you so you’re best off
84:55
playing a clean game yeah yeah then
84:57
trying to beat them at their own game
84:58
yeah really good advice what about for
85:02
family members how do you tell how do
85:05
you know if your mom yeah I mean that’s
85:09
incredibly painful cuz I got to tell you
85:10
one thing I’ve seen in more than a few
85:12
family systems is some people who won’t
85:14
refuse to believe it like I refuse to
85:16
believe that we’re just being dramatic
85:17
and they’ll say they’re not a psychopath
85:19
and so you’ll have these families that
85:20
also be schism didn’t split like people
85:23
will say I think you’re exaggerating I
85:24
think that you know they’ll actually
85:25
Gaslight the person who’s making the
85:27
accusation so it can be very painful if
85:30
you come into the realization that one
85:33
or god forbid both of your parents is a
85:35
psychopath that’s a very painful
85:38
revelation but I gotta tell you you
85:39
probably figured that out as a child
85:41
psychopathic parents tend to be abusive
85:43
neglectful manipulative one of the more
85:48
famous Psychopaths out there
85:50
is Bernie Madoff mm-hmm okay he’s used
85:52
as a classical example of a psychopath
85:55
when you look and he was very wealthy
85:58
and he raised his children up with
86:00
tremendous comfort he certainly wasn’t
86:02
beating them with a stick or you know
86:04
locking them in the basement or
86:05
depriving them but there was a cruel
86:08
edge to him and his kids would
86:10
acknowledge that if you watch any
86:11
retelling of that story there’s well
86:13
it’s definitely not a comfortable
86:14
relationship
86:15
some people have high-functioning
86:16
psychopathic parents a dad who’s a CEO
86:19
or a mom who’s really really you know
86:21
successful at whatever it is she’s done
86:24
and they’ll report like having two
86:27
parents the public person and this
86:29
really cruel invalidating malevolent
86:32
horrible person that would come home and
86:34
they’d note the dichotomy how seamlessly
86:37
their parent would go between those two
86:39
worlds and so on and put through and put
86:42
their child through unrealistic kinds of
86:44
expectations so um people it’s not like
86:47
a person wakes up at 30 and says oh dad
86:49
was a psychopath you know you know is
86:52
there such thing as a self-aware
86:55
psychopath you know the funny thing
86:58
about Psychopaths is I don’t even think
86:59
they’d get mad if you call them
87:00
Psychopaths because they don’t care what
87:02
anybody thinks of them so if you go up
87:04
they’ll laugh it off you wouldn’t be
87:06
like even a narcissist to get super
87:08
defensive the Psychopaths like you want
87:10
to call me a psychopath call me a psycho
87:12
so that’s how they respond but do they
87:13
think hmm yeah I am a psychopath yeah I
87:16
know they’re not affected about by the
87:18
evaluations or labels placed on them by
87:20
other people what they don’t like
87:22
I know they’re not affected by it but do
87:24
they recognize that they are a
87:26
psychopath
87:28
maybe yeah maybe yeah they might in some
87:31
cases they might and if anything it’s
87:33
like there’s a there’s a sadistic glee
87:36
mmm-hmm you see what I’m saying like
87:38
it’s they may recognize it like how cool
87:41
that I got like how cool like I’m a
87:42
psychopath and I’m getting away with it
87:44
or I’m a psychopath and look how much
87:46
money I’m making or you know it’s almost
87:47
like if you I don’t know it’s like
87:49
finding a bag of money on the street
87:50
dropped by a armored truck and you’re
87:53
like no one’s around and I’m picking
87:54
this up and I’m walking down the street
87:55
and I’m getting away with this like
87:57
their whole life is about getting away
87:58
with stuff so if anything that bath
88:01
might even be like a badge of honor
88:03
but I don’t again I think they’re
88:05
impervious to the criticisms of other
88:09
people that’s where they’re different
88:11
than the narcissus the narcissus hates
88:13
being criticized right the Psychopaths
88:15
don’t mind yes
88:17
what are we talk what are we not talking
88:20
about when it comes to identifying a
88:22
psychopath that people need to know I
88:24
think that with a psychopath it is it is
88:25
really about looking for inconsistencies
88:28
inconsistency in mood inconsistency in
88:31
life history
88:32
inconsistency in their stories the
88:34
problem is we so want to believe when we
88:36
meet someone new that their stories are
88:38
real I’ve just met a supercool person
88:41
that we we make the puzzle pieces fit
88:44
even when they don’t I tell people be a
88:47
cynic when the dates don’t line up
88:49
recreate it listen Google’s making some
88:51
of this stuff possible – no I’m not I
88:53
mean it’s not like I want everyone to I
88:54
said go out there and play like junior
88:57
detective but if you’re being isolated
88:59
from anybody who knows anything about
89:01
this person pay attention to that you
89:04
know before you entirely by their their
89:07
recreation of the events look for things
89:09
that don’t add up they have this huge
89:11
job like they’re so successful but they
89:13
don’t have enough money to get through
89:14
the month but can you help me out this
89:16
month like next month the big payouts
89:18
gonna come come out I mean so I’ve got
89:20
everything covered from then on in you
89:22
know anything that feels like a hustle
89:24
is probably a hustle we are seeing that
89:27
there are certain there programs like
89:28
for example prison transition programs
89:31
and you know other programs working with
89:34
more like incarcerated antisocial
89:38
personality disordered groups that have
89:41
found some utility in some forms of
89:43
social skills training group therapies
89:46
some some luck with cognitive behavioral
89:49
therapies there has been some good work
89:50
there you know listen at the end of the
89:52
day it’s like you know the old joke of
89:54
how many psychologists does it take to
89:56
change a lightbulb one but needs to want
89:58
to change it’s the same thing with
89:59
antisocial personality disorder you know
90:02
the person has to need to want to change
90:04
and you know you may or may not have it
90:06
I have to be honest with you it’s more
90:08
of those slick glib charming almost if
90:12
you want to call them white-collar
90:13
Psychopaths that are you’re gonna get
90:16
absolutely
90:17
we’re there I mean I think there’s
90:18
absolutely no chance of change there I
90:20
think actually in the in the criminal
90:22
populations you may be able to do some
90:25
level of job training social skills
90:28
training meaning and purpose focus work
90:30
and I actually would put my bet on the
90:32
incarcerated population more than I
90:33
would on the sort of the slick you know
90:36
the slick sophisticated successful group
90:39
of psychopaths quite frankly because
90:40
there’s almost no motivation for change
90:41
they’re getting rewarded for their
90:43
behavior that’s right
90:44
they’re there in their world they’re
90:46
killing they’re killing it they’re
90:47
killing it and the world is telling them
90:48
they’re killing it
90:49
too right yeah so maybe cured is the
90:52
wrong word yeah could a and a person who
90:57
is psychopathic could they at least get
90:59
to a point where they’re not breaking
91:02
the rules I mean that’s obviously the
91:04
goal and that’s that’s the goal of you
91:06
know rehabilitation after prison and you
91:08
know that kind of thing is that there is
91:10
no recidivism and we try to avoid
91:12
recidivism is where we’re trying to
91:14
prevent a person from committing crimes
91:16
again but you know criminal behavior or
91:19
illegal behaviors just only one part of
91:22
what we see an antisocial personality
91:23
disorder we’re also seeing violation of
91:25
ethics or morality or social norms so
91:29
for example somebody who is antisocial
91:31
personality or psychopathy is very
91:33
likely to cheat on a romantic partner if
91:35
they have one they’re going to probably
91:36
keep doing that because it really are
91:39
they’re really almost immune to it any
91:41
sense of morality and so that’s not
91:45
going to change which can make it very
91:46
difficult to maintain any kind of
91:48
trusting relationship with somebody like
91:51
that so I think that some of the
91:52
treatment targets may be in terms of
91:54
illegal behavior they may be willing to
91:56
bring some of that hustle if you will to
91:58
a more legal behavior but even then
92:00
you’ll sort of see that their tendency
92:02
is going to want to take moral and
92:04
ethical shortcuts what does the
92:06
treatment actually look like for these
92:08
people you know a lot of it is again
92:09
it’s cognitive behavioral it’s it’s it’s
92:11
challenging their beliefs and changing
92:14
them their beliefs and thoughts and a
92:16
hope of changing their behavior that’s
92:18
really what you’re trying to do right
92:19
and so it’s that’s where you’re sort of
92:23
pushing back on their cognitions pushing
92:24
back on their schemas on their sense of
92:27
how the world works trying to enhance
92:29
their sense of empathy
92:31
you know to really help them focus on
92:32
this is how people are being hurt
92:34
especially if it’s a kind of it’s not
92:36
like person on person crime like violent
92:38
crime something that feels more remote
92:40
that to help them sort of see that this
92:43
is hurting somebody else and the people
92:46
around them now in a person who’s really
92:49
a cold stone-cold psychopath they don’t
92:53
care so I don’t care if I’m hurting
92:55
someone it doesn’t matter to me and so
92:57
if that’s the case what how are you
93:00
gonna make change there if I don’t think
93:02
something I’m doing is wrong like if
93:03
some if I’m somebody tells me tomorrow
93:06
like it’s wrong to turn off my bedroom
93:08
light when I sleep oh my gut yeah why is
93:10
that a problem
93:11
that is that’s a really good way to put
93:13
that that’s how far it is yeah what do
93:17
you mean I gotta make a hundred million
93:18
dollars yeah do it you know I’m gonna do
93:20
it and no one’s gonna stop me or it’s a
93:23
game again I’m gonna bring up the Bernie
93:24
Madoff case because he’s sort of like a
93:26
real textbook kind of a psychopathic
93:29
antisocial personality sort of person in
93:31
some ways it’s almost like it was
93:33
gamesmanship to him at some point how
93:34
much money does one person well it isn’t
93:36
that the price it’s got to the truth
93:38
yeah yeah that’s all it was and it felt
93:40
like that’s what it was despite
93:42
literally so many people’s lives being
93:46
destroyed by his decisions absolutely
93:49
didn’t even seem to it was the game was
93:52
more important than the other people and
93:53
that’s what it is like they are players
93:55
who really only care about the game so
93:58
someone’s watching this I doubt they’re
94:00
psychopathic no probably are in a
94:02
relationship with somebody is nobody who
94:04
are family members a family member or
94:08
work with them or work with them yeah
94:10
they are likely going to be advised to
94:14
go seek therapy for themselves in that
94:16
therapy session what do they ask the
94:19
therapist because what I want what I
94:22
want to have happen for them is that
94:23
they don’t have to go to five therapy
94:26
sessions to figure out what is a
94:28
psychopath and what all these things
94:30
that you’re educating them on and giving
94:33
them the tools to ask the therapist so
94:35
that maybe in the first session they can
94:37
make a ton
94:38
of a game it depends on the relationship
94:41
of the psychopath is this your child is
94:43
this your coworker
94:45
is this your husband you know because
94:47
obviously the nature of the relationship
94:49
it’s gonna have a lot of bearing on what
94:52
you need to know for example if it’s
94:54
your child the question a lot of parents
94:56
are gonna have is am I responsible for
94:58
this will we’ll go into the whole child
95:01
thing in our next video right so let’s
95:03
assume that this is for a loved one so
95:06
you mean like a part of romantic
95:08
romantic partner is it possible he can
95:12
change because he keeps telling me he
95:14
will we have kids together can I expect
95:18
that he’s going to be a decent co-parent
95:21
if we have kids should I be scared
95:26
you know I keep giving him second
95:29
chances but it never works out why not
95:33
you know is it possible he’ll change
95:36
those are the kinds of questions you’re
95:37
gonna you know that somebody should
95:39
probably ask and you know by and large
95:41
if that person has any expertise
95:43
whatsoever in psychopathy or antisocial
95:44
personality they’re going to be able to
95:46
give you some straight answers on that
95:48
like I said these people are not made
95:50
for long-term intimate relationships
95:51
they’re not and what if somebody’s a
95:53
what what if somebody’s in the position
95:55
where their partner makes all the money
95:57
they have nothing in common scenario and
96:00
they have five kids what and they come
96:02
to a therapist and they say you’re
96:04
telling me he’s not gonna change and
96:06
you’re telling me to leave be for all
96:07
these reasons there just won’t tell her
96:09
to leave I wouldn’t tell her okay then
96:10
but they’re saying this is gonna be
96:12
really tough and that person says I want
96:16
to stay in the relationship now what’s
96:19
your response to that then I’ll say look
96:22
at the history of what it’s been like so
96:24
far that’s how it’s going to keep being
96:26
okay he has not been listening to you
96:29
he’s not going to start he has been
96:31
cheating on you he’s going to continue
96:33
he’s been disrespecting you that’s gonna
96:36
keep going like everything you’re seeing
96:37
I said at least you already have the
96:38
roadmap expect nothing you expect
96:42
nothing do you help them with coping
96:44
strategies things like continuing if
96:47
they can continue
96:48
stay in therapy group therapy
96:52
I do ensure that people women in
96:54
particular who are relationships with
96:55
men who have antisocial personality
96:57
disorder or psychopathy have access to
97:00
domestic violence resources because
97:02
that’s not an uncommon pattern in these
97:03
relationships encourage them to
97:06
cultivate some of their own interests
97:09
encourage them to cultivate friendships
97:11
and their partner will probably try to
97:14
isolate them from those friendships but
97:15
create you know even if it’s online
97:17
communities you know and I do want to
97:20
tell med circle listeners the guidance
97:23
we’re giving right now is not meant to
97:26
be to serve a person who is in a violent
97:31
relationship if you are in a
97:33
relationship where you or other children
97:37
or other dependent adults in your
97:39
environment are in danger you must seek
97:42
help immediately you must seek domestic
97:46
violence services law enforcement and
97:49
keep in mind if you’re researching those
97:51
resources online on a computer make sure
97:53
you clear out your cache every time
97:55
because it’s not unusual in those
97:57
relationships for a partner to go
97:59
through and search everything you’ve
98:01
searched it’s that level of control so I
98:03
mean I do want listeners to understand
98:06
that what we’re talking about it’s
98:08
situations where it has not escalated to
98:10
violence financial abuse things that are
98:13
putting you at abject risk that this
98:15
this is not a substitute for the
98:17
guidance somebody needs in that kind of
98:19
a situation and it can go there and in
98:21
with Psychopaths not uncommon is
98:23
creating an exit strategy for the
98:25
relationship every part of it is a part
98:27
of it now unfortunately this is where
98:29
you start exactly getting sometimes into
98:31
the world of restraining orders and
98:32
really painful custody hearings if the
98:35
antisocial personality pattern has more
98:37
financial resources in you they may try
98:40
to crush you in court they will be able
98:42
to charm the judge they will be able to
98:43
charm the attorneys they’ll be able to
98:45
charm the custody evaluators I have seen
98:47
these things go really really badly for
98:49
people people losing custody of their
98:51
children people getting limited custody
98:54
sometimes the psychopathic parent wants
98:56
custody of that child not because
98:58
they’re interested in the child but to
98:59
stick it to the other parent which is
99:01
not good for anyone in this
99:02
situation so I do tell people you need a
99:05
plan you need a strategy you need
99:08
supports and after all that it still may
99:12
not go your way and I wish I could give
99:13
people like a really sugar-coated
99:15
version of this but people say well the
99:16
judge is gonna see right through him not
99:19
necessarily well I’m glad you’re not
99:21
giving a sugar-coated notion because
99:23
what we’re doing here is giving the
99:25
reality the reality of mental health and
99:28
the reality on this topic is what you it
99:30
is just described and let’s not move
99:33
away from reality because it makes us
99:36
feel good in the moment right let’s lean
99:37
into it so we can work within the realms
99:40
of what’s real and make as of the best
99:42
decisions as we possibly can yeah and I
99:44
think you’ve given a lot of our viewers
99:46
actionable steps to take absolutely but
99:49
you have to I mean these these
99:50
relationships can become dangerous yeah
99:52
you know and it’s also listen I’ll tell
99:54
you this if a person’s psychopathic or
99:57
antisocial personality partner is really
99:59
high functioning they are like the head
100:01
of a company or some sort of like really
100:04
high up in a political structure or
100:06
something like that the world may not
100:08
believe them yeah and that’s me that’s
100:10
even more horrifying and in fact women
100:12
who have who are more wealthy are often
100:14
less likely to seek out domestic
100:15
violence resources which is not an
100:17
uncommon situation in these
100:18
relationships I mean this is a dark
100:20
space and again I think some some people
100:22
may be watching now and scratching their
100:23
head and say how did the person not see
100:26
this how did they get in in the first
100:27
place
100:28
listen and you know a lot of flash a lot
100:31
of sizzle everyone around you saying oh
100:32
my god she’s so generous he’s so nice oh
100:35
my god he’s he’s taken oh he’s flying
100:37
all of us on this great vacation or you
100:40
know he’s taking care of you or he’s
100:42
actually you know let’s say you have a
100:43
child he’s offering to take care of the
100:45
child – that all looks really good to
100:47
the world and a lot of people don’t stop
100:49
under those circumstances to ask the
100:51
right questions well that’s a really
100:53
good takeaway for people who knows
100:55
somebody who’s in a relationship with a
100:58
psychopath – make sure you ask him check
101:00
yeah yeah and when I sat down with Kevin
101:04
Hines who survived a what normally would
101:07
be fatal jump off the Golden Gate Bridge
101:09
he really drove home the point of
101:12
checking in with people asking how are
101:15
you but
101:16
meaning it not the oh hi there how are
101:18
you good that’s what surface that was
101:20
never listening to that we’re really
101:21
going hey you’re in a relationship with
101:23
this person but how is it how you
101:26
feeling yeah relationship with people
101:28
don’t often like to pull back that
101:29
curtain I don’t know whether it’s
101:31
because they don’t want to know the
101:32
answer or whether they feel like they’re
101:34
prying that it feels impertinent or
101:37
something like that especially if you I
101:39
mean I think even if you don’t know
101:40
someone well it’s okay that you’ve met
101:42
them how are you like it’s a good it’s a
101:44
good relationship I think people are
101:46
often like what why would you even ask
101:48
me that I think it’s it’s an interesting
101:50
question because if it’s a great
101:52
relationship and it’s healthy you’d say
101:54
I’m so fortunate like it’s a really
101:55
really happy relationship at a minimum
101:58
it would make anyone stop and think dr.
102:01
Ramani explained why first a child
102:04
cannot be diagnosed as a cycle because
102:06
it’s it is a it is a pattern a
102:09
diagnostic kind of a label that’s saved
102:11
for people over the age of 18 antisocial
102:14
personality disorder is not diagnosed
102:16
until somebody is over 18 but in
102:19
children we can look for patterns that
102:21
really conform to delinquency mm-hmm
102:23
these can be milder patterns like
102:25
truancy cheating on school assignments
102:29
to more severe ones like physically or
102:32
sexually assaulting peers it could be
102:35
things like torturing animals I’m
102:37
setting fires all of these behaviors you
102:40
know if you have I think three or more
102:42
these kinds of behaviors they qualify a
102:44
child to be diagnosed with something
102:46
called conduct disorder now these kids
102:48
typically get handled through school and
102:51
juvenile justice systems they may be
102:54
placed in special school settings they
102:56
may be sent to sort of special boarding
102:58
school settings if the family has the
102:59
money sadly some of them may end up in
103:02
juvenile detention settings as well
103:04
where say where we know they’re grouped
103:06
in with other kids doing these things so
103:07
sometimes they actually learn more
103:09
criminality in those settings so if
103:12
you’re noticing these patterns in a
103:14
child they’re bullying any of those
103:16
things
103:16
you want to act Swift leads early early
103:20
and early and intensively I think part
103:24
of the reason this is always so tricky
103:26
is that sometimes it’s kids being kids
103:28
is that childhood
103:30
in all those childhood fights that’s
103:31
just kids being kids that’s boys being
103:33
boys
103:33
and that’s often uses in a defense of
103:35
something that people could get ahead of
103:38
but it’s also not that simple
103:41
you might in nowadays we have a new
103:43
issue to look at with kids and that’s
103:45
their online activity you may not have a
103:47
kid who’s going to school and making
103:49
trouble there but what you might have is
103:52
a child who’s really getting into some
103:54
dark online spaces whether through
103:56
social media or even websites and and
103:59
sort of social networks that aren’t that
104:01
is commonly used you want to watch their
104:03
video game play while their research
104:06
associating violent video game play or
104:08
video game play and violent behavior is
104:10
equivocal at best there’s really we’re
104:12
not seeing consistent patterns there is
104:14
your child locked up in a room all day
104:16
playing those video games by themselves
104:19
are they socially isolated how do they
104:21
treat their siblings are they
104:22
interactive at family gatherings or are
104:24
they distant and remote so you there’s a
104:27
lot of places you can witness this child
104:30
and there’s a lot of ways it’s not just
104:32
the acting out some of it is also that
104:33
extreme social withdrawal you’re their
104:36
parent they don’t get cyber security you
104:39
get to go through their stuff and that’s
104:41
a good thing yes it is a good thing but
104:43
if you’re at the position as a parent
104:45
where you feel like your kid is
104:47
exhibiting some of these signs and
104:48
symptoms be happy that at least they’re
104:50
not 18 so that you you might be able to
104:53
get that you can take control yeah and a
104:54
lot of parents listen a lot of these
104:56
kids are more savvy electronic spaces
104:58
than their parents are that’s it so
104:59
they’re able to you know really bury
105:01
things and you know there might be on
105:02
websites and extreme websites that
105:05
parents don’t even know exists so it’s
105:09
getting more and sometimes more and more
105:11
challenging to monitor all of these
105:13
kinds of situations where kids could be
105:15
going down some really perilous places
105:18
at that point you can really only engage
105:21
in early intervention like I said in
105:22
part through the schools and part
105:24
through people who have this as a
105:25
specialization and at that point hope
105:27
for the best I talked to so many of our
105:31
viewers and so it helps me to learn what
105:34
helps them and one of the things that
105:36
they’ve shared with me is that when
105:37
they’re watching videos like this and
105:38
you just you just
105:40
look at if they’re isolating if they
105:43
interact with people have family
105:45
functions and you went through this list
105:47
go back in this video play those
105:50
responses again that dr. Romani just
105:52
gave and write down those questions and
105:55
over the next week two weeks a month
105:56
write down what you’re observing because
105:59
we get so caught up and getting the kids
106:01
to school getting to word packing
106:03
lunches we miss the parenting we do we
106:05
don’t always pay attention no and so if
106:07
you write that down and you actually
106:09
take the time to look and write up yeah
106:10
then you can take something to a
106:12
therapist and say this is what I’ve been
106:14
observing right so we have some track
106:17
record here and we start to expedite the
106:19
process of therapy so that they get as
106:22
much yeah correct information as
106:23
possible and one thing that’s also
106:25
tricky Kyle is and you and as a parent I
106:27
can understand this is some parents just
106:29
are in a place of denial they don’t want
106:31
to even let themselves go they’re like
106:33
it’s terrifying to think not only could
106:35
something be wrong but your child
106:37
potentially could be dangerous to other
106:39
people and parents think well maybe
106:41
it’ll be different in the new school
106:43
maybe it’ll be different next year this
106:46
is a thing you know maybe maybe this is
106:47
a phase exactly maybe it is but better
106:50
that you do explore it instead of saying
106:53
two years later I wish I had started
106:55
something back then and started trying
106:57
to get to the bottom of this it’s hard
106:59
if the child is oppositional enough even
107:02
getting them into a mental health
107:03
practitioner may get you nowhere but I
107:05
think for parents to at least know that
107:07
you gave it a shot the more resources
107:10
you throw at something early the more
107:12
likely you are to have a good outcome
107:13
yes what do you wish more parents would
107:17
be doing you know I think I would I wish
107:20
more parents would be willing to have
107:22
emotional conversations with their kids
107:23
early I have to say that we’re having a
107:27
real crisis of emotional expression in
107:31
our culture and I think sadly it’s
107:33
concentrated in men and boys where we’re
107:35
not giving them permission to talk about
107:37
their feelings we view vulnerability as
107:39
weakness we view talking about feelings
107:42
as weakness we feminized it and that’s
107:44
opposed to make it weak too and I think
107:46
a lot of some of the bubble ups we see
107:48
in men are just an inability to talk
107:51
about their feelings their fears their
107:53
Ang’s
107:54
their vulnerabilities and I think
107:56
sometimes parents are even afraid to go
107:58
there to open those Pandora’s boxes and
108:00
with technology kids have become sort of
108:03
almost like they’re speaking we’re
108:04
talking two different languages in a
108:06
household and it’s just to give
108:09
permission to those conversations and
108:11
you know and I think parents often feel
108:13
they have to give solutions to their
108:14
kids sometimes all you need to do is let
108:17
them talk let them talk and listen I
108:20
listen I have to catch myself on that
108:22
all the time I happen to have a very
108:24
long commute to school for my daughter
108:25
that I used to try to say well let’s fix
108:28
it and I had it took me a while to say
108:30
I’m gonna let her talk I’m gonna let her
108:32
talk and talk and talk and not try to
108:35
bring a solution to it every time and
108:38
which is hard when you’re psychologists
108:40
well I I find that funny that it’s hard
108:43
I would think it’d be so easy for you to
108:45
just listen you are it’s like because
108:48
it’s your kid kid you wanna write and I
108:51
think many parents even well-intentioned
108:54
are you know it’s time that like you
108:56
said you come home you’re making dinner
108:57
you’re running around you’re doing
108:58
homework this whole sort of like let’s
109:00
just sort of claim under the covers and
109:01
have an emotional conversation when does
109:03
that happen good time make the time you
109:06
just cause a light bulb to go off in my
109:08
head i I’ve seared in our depression
109:10
series with dr. sue Varma that at nine
109:13
years old I was diagnosed with clinical
109:14
depression and completely suicidal was
109:17
put on Prozac and I shared more of my
109:19
depression story throughout that but
109:21
during or throughout my life but during
109:23
that time I remember I have episodes of
109:27
like I would say panic or anxiety or
109:30
just really emotional outbursts and I
109:33
would end up in my room in bed and I
109:36
would be just wishing wishing that my
109:39
mom would come in and talk to me I
109:41
wouldn’t I wouldn’t go he would the
109:43
classic red no I would never go that’s
109:45
such an important and I was there oh
109:47
gosh I hopefully and when I would hear
109:48
that knock on that door that door open
109:50
it was just like relief yeah because I
109:53
go she’s going to let me talk now yeah
109:56
and it was such a I didn’t realize it
109:58
that until you just said that of letting
110:00
them talk yep give me that outlet to be
110:02
like here’s what I’m feeling here
110:04
yeah cuz for whatever reason I couldn’t
110:06
manage it health and a healthy well I I
110:08
think we as parents it’s not art we
110:12
don’t wait for our child to come get us
110:13
we do have to be we have to be the early
110:16
warning mechanisms we have to check in
110:18
in our children that balance will shift
110:20
one day that won’t forever be our
110:22
responsibility but it really is about
110:24
paying attention and again it’s
110:25
something I’ve been rueful about myself
110:27
as a parent very busy and there been
110:29
times I wanted to give advice when all
110:31
she needed was an ear you know and I
110:33
guess we learned and we evolve and we
110:35
keep trying to get it right mm-hmm if a
110:38
parent does take their kid to a
110:40
therapist and they are diagnosed with I
110:44
always forget that in conduct disorder
110:45
conduct disorder what are the chances
110:49
with the right intervention that this
110:52
kid will not develop psychopathic
110:54
tendencies as an adult you know my
110:56
knowledge based in Syria isn’t good
110:57
enough for me to give you a specific
110:59
probability I would be uncomfortable
111:01
doing that because this is such a high
111:02
stakes game let me put it this way your
111:05
mistakes are much much better if you do
111:07
take them to a therapist than if you
111:08
don’t
111:09
yes you’re improving your odds you know
111:11
the I think a lot it’s a lot of it’s
111:13
going to depend on that the child’s
111:15
pattern of behavior the environments
111:18
they find themselves in the resources to
111:21
help the child there will be other
111:23
adjunctive programs around that child
111:25
for example there are some programs that
111:27
use things like martial arts and and and
111:30
those kinds of like physical kinds of
111:33
programs to actually channel some of the
111:36
strong feelings these kids have into the
111:38
discipline of martial arts so you’ll see
111:40
some of those kinds of programs somebody
111:42
I know works on those kinds of programs
111:44
with gang affiliated youth so there’s
111:46
different kinds of innovative programs
111:47
out there that meet kids where they are
111:50
at using art using music using
111:53
physicality that you want to use as many
111:55
of these resources as possible to give
111:57
that child a chance to express
111:59
themselves where they may not be able to
112:00
find the words they may be able to find
112:02
another outlet give us a few tips for
112:06
parents on that on those initial therapy
112:09
visits with that child you know when you
112:11
bring a child in for therapy initially
112:13
now while different therapists who work
112:15
with kids under 18 work differently most
112:17
of them
112:18
Stalin’s we’re gonna want to meet with
112:19
the parents once and sit with you
112:22
because many times a child won’t be able
112:24
to relate their own developmental
112:25
history like were there any birth
112:27
complications and their milestones or
112:29
all of that so let me the parents to do
112:30
that and then you’ll have to work out
112:33
with the therapist sort of how you’re
112:35
going to communicate about it with the
112:36
child who’s well into adolescence that
112:38
child might want a private space and
112:39
then you agree with the therapist on
112:42
when she will contact you or he will
112:44
contact you if the child is in danger if
112:46
there’s symptomatology they’re concerned
112:48
about you want to make sure that the
112:49
adolescent feels fine with that with the
112:51
younger children it’s less of an issue
112:52
that tends to be more of an open book
112:54
and more open conversation you as a
112:57
parent should ask some questions on how
112:58
they work you know with your child and
113:00
what kinds of things that they’re going
113:02
to be expecting a child will they expect
113:03
your child to do anything between
113:05
sessions so I think that it ends up
113:08
becoming collaborative I also have to
113:10
say Cuyler can be useful families to
113:12
enter family therapy where everybody’s
113:14
in the room mom
113:15
dad or whoever the caregivers Dino
113:17
whether it’s to caregivers whether it’s
113:19
a single parent siblings and the child
113:21
because these are these tend to be
113:24
systemic issues I think there’s a real
113:26
risk of sort of labeling that one child
113:28
is the problem child which that child is
113:30
probably already experiencing that sense
113:32
of identity within the family especially
113:34
if there are other siblings are playing
113:35
by the rules and they’re not that by
113:37
having family therapy there could be a
113:39
chance for everyone to kind of get a
113:41
little bit more aware of the dynamics
113:43
but it’s early intervention it’s regular
113:46
intervention it’s multimodal
113:47
intervention meaning we’re using
113:49
different techniques to help them out
113:50
it’s monitoring and then it’s leap of
113:53
faith the stakes are never higher when
113:57
it comes to a child yeah I agree
113:59
and what are we not telling parents
114:01
about psychopathic tendencies and their
114:04
kids that we need to be telling them you
114:06
know we’re learning more and more about
114:08
this I mean I think it’s something that
114:09
movies sometimes show in this kind of
114:11
scary horror film kind of sequence it’s
114:15
an area where there are some specialists
114:17
who are doing work in this area it is
114:20
hard because there’s so many moving
114:22
parts here listen for the child who’s
114:23
coming from a really abusive deprived
114:27
violent home I’m not so sure that
114:30
they’re going to be watching this if the
114:31
parents are abusing them I don’t know
114:32
that they’re watching videos to figure
114:34
out how to help their kid so those kids
114:37
are likely potentially to have poorer
114:38
outcomes to got custody of the kid or
114:42
something he’s now trying yeah but in
114:44
that kind of scenario exactly now that
114:46
the child has a consistent caregiver to
114:49
that family family member or someone
114:51
else who may have stepped in in this
114:52
child’s life regular intervention and
114:56
that child may be really different and
114:58
have their arms curved you know they’re
115:00
gonna do that they’re gonna Stonewall
115:01
and they’re a child and you’re going to
115:04
keep trying to find that way to get in
115:05
to them and that’s why therapists use
115:07
all kinds of techniques even playing
115:09
games with a child I mean the child
115:10
people therapist II work with children
115:12
very very creative and very gifted it’s
115:15
very difficult work to do and there are
115:17
people out there who specialize in this
115:19
and there are also experts who sort of
115:21
cross that line between sort of the
115:23
justice system and psychology who sort
115:25
of are working you know know about the
115:27
cutting edge programs for young people
115:29
who are vulnerable to ongoing series a
115:32
developing criminal behavior or who are
115:34
you engaging in it one i I want to thank
115:38
you first for sharing that because this
115:40
is hopefully and I believe will change
115:44
the path of so many I hope so I I don’t
115:47
think that people understand and I think
115:49
for me especially on a day I’m you know
115:52
clinically working with clients is the
115:54
devastation that’s wrought when somebody
115:57
abuses a child yeah for me it is a it is
116:01
a it’s a passion it’s it’s a it’s a
116:03
fight it’s an absolute there’s something
116:06
about it that the sheer innocence of a
116:08
child that they place their trust in the
116:10
adults around them and that trust is
116:12
betrayed that ramification is lifelong
116:16
it is self doubt it is sometimes self
116:19
harm it can be mental illness on the
116:22
bright side yes we often can see
116:24
resilience and growth and empathy and
116:27
lots of other things and we can also see
116:28
darker patterns like psychopathy and
116:31
sociopathy but I I think that we I
116:34
cannot stress enough how important it is
116:37
to safe guard our children they are our
116:41
children or not your children are my
116:43
children they are
116:44
our children these are the people who
116:46
will be taking care of the world as we
116:49
get older and our complete disregard
116:51
sometimes to the welfare of children is
116:53
concerning for me this is why I want
116:55
people to listen to this and really get
116:57
that sense that pay attention to the
116:58
kids around you pay close attention
117:00
because for many folks I’ve worked with
117:02
over the years even students I’ve talked
117:04
to if one person one person had listened
117:08
to them and paid attention to them when
117:09
they were children things could have
117:11
turned out quite differently yes you
117:13
mentioned in previous videos that people
117:16
know once they become an adult if their
117:19
parent has an antisocial personality
117:21
disorder they may not know the label for
117:23
it but it mean the odds are if they had
117:25
a psychopathic parent or a sociopathic
117:27
parent or you know antisocial
117:29
personality patient I mean your parents
117:32
I should say they would have either had
117:34
a parent who it’d be end in the family
117:36
that would have been very common like
117:37
disappeared or who physically harmed
117:43
them either themselves or their mother
117:44
or you know other people in the family
117:46
or who might have gone to jail you know
117:49
for really committing some sort of
117:51
heinous crime
117:53
so something there’s going to be some
117:55
sort of ringer they just may not know
117:56
what it’s called but they’ll know I
118:00
don’t know yeah it’s not subtle it’s not
118:02
subtle
118:02
how many of these how many of these kids
118:07
who are now adults have relationships
118:09
with their parents who are a
118:10
psychopathic or sociopath you know it
118:13
depends it you know it really depends on
118:14
the nature of the parents transgressions
118:16
obviously somebody abandoned the child
118:18
some people out of curiosity as an adult
118:21
may circle back and want to try to have
118:22
a relationship with that parent if they
118:25
were horribly abused by that parent they
118:27
they often won’t but you know listen
118:29
it’s amazing how many people who had
118:31
abusive parents still stay in the game
118:33
with their parents I don’t know maybe
118:34
it’s just it’s almost like a loop they
118:36
get stuck in still trying to think they
118:38
can win them over or something would
118:39
change their behavior so some do
118:41
certainly many don’t because of the
118:45
parents transgressions are either so
118:46
awful or just pull them out of the
118:47
child’s life and never to come back
118:49
again
118:49
well I think out of all the categories
118:52
children and parents are the most
118:54
difficult because I
118:56
do have the choice even though it might
118:58
be very difficult to leave a partner I
119:00
do have a choice to quit my job if my
119:04
boss is a has antisocial personality
119:06
disorder but I can’t go get a new
119:08
biological mother no I can’t go have I
119:12
guess I could have another kid but I
119:14
still got the one that I have yeah well
119:16
I mean if you’re talking about it being
119:17
your parent can you quit a parent sure
119:19
you’re right you can you’re right you
119:22
know I mean I think that the heartbreak
119:24
I see in folks is when they realize
119:27
their parent just did a bad job
119:30
they were neglectful they were abusive
119:32
they just were not they should not have
119:35
been a parent bottom line yeah that
119:37
awareness is devastating because you’re
119:39
right you do only get one set of parents
119:41
now and they may not always be
119:43
biological parents call sometimes
119:45
adoptive parents come into the scene in
119:46
that person’s life and that’s that’s the
119:48
only parent they know it may be a
119:50
slightly more it could be a more complex
119:52
than you know dynamic if that adoptive
119:54
parent abuse I’m making them wonder
119:56
because this have gone a different way
119:57
but ultimately it’s the the sense of
120:01
loss of I don’t I was I feel like I feel
120:05
like I’ve been robbed I could have had a
120:07
healthy parents relationship which is
120:09
such an important relationship not only
120:10
for a child obviously critically
120:12
important for a child but also even in
120:14
adulthood person feels something’s been
120:16
stolen from them however I think then
120:19
that’s getting caught up in somebody
120:21
being given a job they probably weren’t
120:22
good at which is namely your parent some
120:25
people who are good at this actually
120:26
seek out mentoring figures and other
120:28
adults it may be a grandparent it could
120:30
be an aunt or an uncle it could be some
120:32
other trusted adult in the family system
120:33
or it could even be a mentor they meet
120:35
along the way in as a university at the
120:38
university of high school what you know
120:40
in the job that they find someone who
120:42
becomes that fathering or mothering
120:44
figure to them and they have that
120:46
relationship there’s still a yearning
120:47
gosh darnit I only wish this had been my
120:49
the parent I had been born to life
120:52
doesn’t always look the way we want it
120:53
to you know and and by fighting say this
120:56
is my parent needs to be right and
120:57
fighting a fighting for something that’s
121:01
completely futile that you’re never
121:02
going to get that feels like a waste of
121:04
time so I want to break this into two
121:06
categories the first category
121:09
for the people who are in the position
121:13
where look I go to Thanksgiving every
121:15
year and I see my my parent and I have
121:18
to know how to deal with them and the
121:20
second one is for the people who say you
121:22
know what I’ve moved on from them I’ve
121:24
separated but I do need to recover from
121:27
that’s good and perhaps both people need
121:30
to read yeah so let’s start with the
121:31
first one what do you tell the people
121:34
who still want or feel like they need to
121:37
have a relationship with their parent
121:39
you know when people feel like they need
121:41
that then I say to them you gotta manage
121:43
your expectations you got to get
121:44
realistic about this
121:45
they’re never gonna be a cheerleader
121:47
they may be downright jealous of you
121:49
they may try to undermine you they may
121:51
try to take money or resource from you
121:53
they may try to manipulate you because
121:55
these are all the things they’ve already
121:56
done so they’re not gonna stop yeah so
121:58
can you go instead of waiting for
122:01
something you’re waiting for that I love
122:02
you that may never come or that I’m
122:04
proud of you that may never come and so
122:06
you’re waiting for something that may
122:07
not arrive that can be heartbreaking but
122:10
if you can say listen I want to know the
122:14
I like the idea that I have a parent out
122:15
there somewhere and I know they’re
122:17
always going to get it wrong if you can
122:19
get down with that and really manage
122:21
your expectations then go ahead have
122:23
your relationship with them but to keep
122:25
being surprised that they’re acting
122:28
badly after a lifetime of acting badly
122:31
that that’s that it’s actually feels
122:34
illogical you know it’s easy illogical
122:36
because it’s a matter of the heart
122:37
but you have to be realistic about the
122:40
expectations you bring into this
122:41
situation that is first of all so simple
122:46
mm-hmm my favorite things are the simple
122:48
ones though because they’re often
122:49
underrated and the most powerful it yes
122:53
you this has been going on your entire
122:56
life just because you’re an adult now
122:59
and can point out what it is
123:00
doesn’t mean it’s now going to be
123:02
different nope and if you could just let
123:04
it go put it down realize this is the
123:07
depth the hand you were dealt yeah and
123:09
just like Anika see you know sometimes
123:11
you’re gonna have to fold the hand and
123:12
say I’m done playing this I’m good
123:14
you know you you say let it go and meet
123:17
for me for me it translates to
123:21
forgive and puree that jaggon I’m gonna
123:25
I want to hear all about that response
123:27
because my definition of forgiveness is
123:30
giving up hope that the past could have
123:33
been any different it doesn’t mean I say
123:36
what you did was okay it was terrible
123:40
but I’m going to give up the idea that
123:43
my childhood could have gone any
123:45
differently because it couldn’t no I
123:46
mean that’s fair I I actually what
123:48
you’re describing I tend to use the word
123:50
acceptance except I use the word
123:52
acceptance I forgiveness to me is a this
123:56
happened and I no longer resent you for
124:01
it mm-hmm
124:02
there are not many people I know who
124:04
reached that bar like I forgive people
124:07
who might cancel dinner plans mm-hmm
124:10
I can live with that I don’t know that I
124:14
would forgive someone who fundamentally
124:17
betrayed my trust
124:18
depends it depends but yeah we could
124:21
have a whole conversation about the only
124:22
of you know it’s about forgiveness
124:24
here’s the problem with forgiveness okay
124:26
when we hand it over to another person
124:28
we expect them to treasure it and to
124:32
treat it as the the really almost divine
124:35
gift that it is which is thank you so
124:37
much for this because it feels almost
124:38
like absolution right I’m gonna honor
124:41
this and I’m gonna get it right
124:43
and I am so sorry for the hurt I caused
124:45
you thank you thank you for thank you
124:49
for seeing through to this better part
124:50
of me and they make real change that’s
124:53
an example of forgiveness working out
124:55
hmm but where forgiveness can be
124:57
devastating is when you go out of your
124:59
way to forgive someone and they turn
125:00
around and they do it right back to you
125:01
again which they would do which they
125:03
would do yeah for me forgiveness is not
125:05
even about that for me it’s all about
125:08
okay it’s me really taking a moment with
125:11
myself to go you know what that is okay
125:17
I’m either gonna dwell on this and get
125:19
angry and you know ruminate on it or I’m
125:21
gonna go and you’re okay with them of
125:23
doing it again if I’m not okay with it
125:26
but I I accept that that’s their
125:28
behavior okay accept accept
125:30
yeah that’s why I can’t
125:32
I’ve made the choice to have them in my
125:33
life right and I have to know what’s
125:34
coming because so if you forgive them
125:36
because forgiveness to me is very much a
125:39
and many people argue what you do
125:41
philosophically forgiveness is an act to
125:43
the self okay it’s for the self so I can
125:46
but to me that’s letting go like I can
125:48
say let go of something when you let go
125:50
of something it doesn’t necessarily mean
125:53
you’ve let go of the resentment does
125:55
that make sense like I thought this go
125:58
I’m gonna tell you though it’s changed
126:00
this relationship yeah that’s not
126:03
forgiveness forgiveness is really kind
126:05
of like a bit of a little bit more of a
126:06
reset now if you read Desmond Tutu’s
126:09
work on this and you know that he was
126:12
Nobel Prize winner from South Africa if
126:15
you read his work he gives a much more
126:16
nuance to take on forgiveness and
126:18
actually his work as some of my favorite
126:20
work I’m forgiveness because he really
126:21
does say like yeah this has changed the
126:24
DNA of this relationship from there’s no
126:27
getting past that but I mean I think
126:29
we’re talking about that you know so
126:30
we’re circling around that drain of
126:31
forgiveness letting go and acceptance
126:35
but people use the word acceptance but
126:38
they don’t really mean it they’ll say I
126:40
accept this what do you mean you just
126:41
did that to me again Michael slow down
126:44
sister you just said that you accepted
126:46
that yeah you know I don’t really mean
126:48
it well then they didn’t accept it and
126:49
you didn’t forgive it you know so be
126:51
clear on the terms and listen some
126:54
people you might really transgress on
126:56
them and they may truly forgive it and
126:58
they’ll be okay and you’re gonna do it
127:00
again and you’re gonna do it again and
127:01
that’s not what most people have signed
127:04
up for yeah and sometimes when people
127:06
feel like I’ve given you this divine
127:08
gift of my forgiveness and you keep
127:09
abusing it that feels like outer
127:11
devastation to people in your practice
127:14
do you find that your patients talk
127:19
about their parents a lot number one
127:21
number one it’s like the stereotype of
127:24
Freud and I know what we don’t start
127:26
there we start on what brought them in
127:28
which can be marital problems work
127:30
problems low self-esteem problems with
127:34
their weight anything but it’s current
127:36
this others by rarely produce a person
127:38
come and say I’d like to unearth the
127:39
damage
127:40
under weight at the hands of my 35 years
127:46
at some point though especially since my
127:49
work is in people who are trying to be
127:51
survivors of narcissistic psychopathic
127:54
or other sort of toxic relationships if
127:56
you will I need to understand where
127:58
their precedent came from why do they
128:01
think enduring this is okay and many
128:03
time we get many times we get some of
128:05
those answers in their childhoods that’s
128:07
why we explore there I am NOT a I’m not
128:10
a psycho analytically trained or a
128:12
psychedelic dynamically oriented
128:14
therapists but I do very much believe
128:17
that when we look at the patterns of
128:18
someone’s life we learn about things
128:20
like attachment the nature of their
128:22
sense of security in their close
128:23
relationships we learn what they were
128:25
rewarded for and what they weren’t
128:27
rewarded for or if they were rewarded at
128:29
all we learn what they learned about
128:31
love and what a relationship looks like
128:33
we learned if they’ve had a history of
128:34
trauma we get a lot from understanding
128:36
those early relationships yeah I think
128:38
that’s really wonderful for people to
128:42
hear because hopefully they have or will
128:45
take the step to go into therapy and not
128:48
be afraid to talk about the truth yeah
128:50
when it comes to their parents yeah I
128:52
have found in my personal experience
128:54
going to therapy that I often protected
128:57
yeah my parents to the therapist he
129:01
would ask me a question point-blank and
129:03
I would paint it so that my parents
129:05
looked better than maybe they actually
129:06
were and I found myself doing that and
129:10
then of course we discuss why I was
129:11
doing that but coming from that honest
129:12
place of your upbringing is super
129:14
powerful in therapy yeah yeah and it’s
129:16
not always easy people feel they’re
129:18
being disloyal it’s something that goes
129:20
back to childhood you know children feel
129:22
incredibly loyal to their parents and so
129:25
even as adults we hold on to some of
129:27
that and and coming out about them you
129:29
know so there’s some of its self
129:31
protective in therapy doesn’t need to
129:32
because therapist is probably never
129:33
gonna meet your parents your parents
129:34
might even be dead you know and people
129:36
still feel that it’s deeply disloyal so
129:38
it’s a it’s an interesting space for
129:41
people how protective they can even be
129:43
of their abusers yeah you know when they
129:45
talk about those histories down the road
129:46
I think I know the answer to this but do
129:50
you find that people who were raised
129:54
parents or a parent with antisocial
129:56
personality disorder end up in a
129:58
relationship with somebody who is
130:00
perhaps in an antisocial people who
130:03
witness abusive relationships as
130:06
children there is there’s a risk that
130:09
they may enter those relationships it’s
130:12
some level violence got normalized at
130:14
some at some level they think that might
130:15
be all they deserve likely where there
130:17
was domestic violence there was also at
130:20
a minimum verbal abuse of those children
130:22
if not also physical abuse so it’s a
130:24
it’s a sense of devaluation that’s why I
130:26
was saying I get so angry when I hear
130:28
that children were exposed to early
130:29
traumatizing environments because it
130:31
changes their worldview and more
130:32
importantly their view of themselves and
130:34
then ultimately the choices that they
130:36
make now that again I always want to
130:38
stress to listeners if you came from a
130:41
family of origin where there was
130:44
antisocial personality or psychopathy
130:46
and there was abuse are you doomed to
130:49
repeat those cycles no no no a lot of
130:52
this is awareness yes that you actually
130:53
go out of your way
130:54
you get therapy you’re very mindful and
130:57
aware it’s when you’re not aware it’s
130:59
when you are in denial that you’re at
131:01
risk of making those kinds of errors yes
131:03
but it’s it’s the awareness followed by
131:06
the action it’s the awareness and then
131:07
going to therapy it’s the awareness and
131:09
seeking out this education it’s the
131:10
awareness and talking with the friends
131:12
getting the support system that action
131:14
is so critical but it’s also the
131:16
awareness and being mindful and you know
131:19
and list allowing yourself when a signal
131:21
is given to you it’s only useful if
131:23
you’re willing to heat it isn’t that the
131:26
truth that is the truth when I say that
131:29
one more time when a signal is given to
131:31
you yeah and there’s lots of them
131:33
there’s lots of them it’s only useful if
131:36
you heed that signal yes and when a lot
131:39
of people realize like there was that
131:41
signal and I chose to overlook it for
131:44
any number of reasons had they stepped
131:46
and walked away then so much better yeah
131:49
I’ve done that all of us me many other
131:53
times
131:54
yeah I actually last night was telling
131:57
my friend I said when this thing
131:59
been in my relationship I should have
132:02
just called it but I didn’t you know but
132:05
Kyle here’s where I’m gonna be kind to
132:06
you and everyone listening to myself is
132:09
that there’s a point at which sometimes
132:12
if we walk away too soon we then get
132:15
forever sort of hamstrung by the H of
132:19
regrets
132:19
regret did I step away too soon I mean
132:22
we all what I want is for people to feel
132:25
that they can take that moment taking
132:28
the information and the experiences
132:30
around them trust their feelings and
132:32
when it starts feeling uncomfortable
132:34
that they can give themselves permission
132:36
to either communicate about it or walk
132:38
away with the least damage possible if
132:41
you did walk away at that first signal
132:43
you might have spent the rest of your
132:44
life wondering well was I too much of a
132:46
cut and run guy like did I not give this
132:48
a full chance versus I saw this thing
132:50
through and if anything I stated the
132:54
funeral way too long this body was
132:56
buried in the food and wine were gone
132:57
and now we’re standing yeah you are and
133:01
I I do take some bit of uh I feel good
133:04
about that
133:05
knowing that well at least I know I know
133:07
I know there’s no and you know my my
133:10
goal is to get people away from like
133:12
obsessing over those lingering doubts
133:14
like this doesn’t feel good pay
133:15
attention to those signals seek out help
133:18
communicate some and if when you
133:20
communicate with a partner for example
133:22
you’re getting very strange pushback or
133:25
you’re getting a lot of projection or
133:26
they’re blaming you yeah it’s already
133:29
hard to go to work every day yeah but
133:31
you mentioned in an earlier series that
133:34
anywhere between about four or five
133:35
percent to 21 percent of major
133:40
corporations have a CEO yeah yeah yeah
133:45
so what is someone to do you know I mean
133:49
I think that it really comes down to how
133:51
close you are to that psychopathic
133:53
leader that psychopathic leader maybe
133:55
running the whole show now that’s not
133:57
going to make it easy because the
133:58
culture sort of trickles from the top
134:00
down right so a really psychopathic boss
134:02
can make for a really toxic culture
134:04
where there’s lots of backstabbing and
134:06
subterfuge and lying and deceit and
134:09
people throwing each other under the bus
134:10
and so it can be a really
134:12
oxic workplace when it’s somebody at the
134:14
top you may not have day-to-day contact
134:16
with the person at the top of the ship
134:17
but you may have you know contact with
134:20
people in the middle who are still
134:22
impacted by that kind of company culture
134:24
in terms of what you are to do in the
134:27
long term it’s not something you can do
134:30
much about I mean certainly we’ve seen
134:32
in the last few years more and more
134:34
reports of the real dangers of abusive
134:38
workplaces and what people have endured
134:40
in those settings and honestly how many
134:42
people said when I even did say
134:43
something I wasn’t believed or I was
134:46
told by people don’t say anything
134:48
because that person’s protected because
134:50
they’re making too much money for this
134:51
company right there’s a reality there it
134:54
just say you’re in this sort of David
134:56
and Goliath battle you’re not gonna win
134:57
yeah you’re really not and I wish I
135:00
could sit here and say no really and and
135:01
you can go to HR and you can get an
135:04
attorney and it’s all can that be a
135:05
happy ending it may very well not be and
135:07
by the time this whole story plays out
135:09
you may be so shredded psychologically
135:12
but it mate the battle may not be worth
135:14
it so it’s really about choosing your
135:16
battles and being very realistic about
135:18
how it’s all gonna turn out but all of
135:21
that said you know when you are in these
135:24
workplaces where maybe some in your
135:26
direct report somebody you report to
135:28
directly is a is a psychopath
135:31
the key again it’s something I’ve talked
135:34
about in other med circle videos is
135:35
document document document because as I
135:38
said if you do decide to go down the you
135:40
know the path of talking to HR they’re
135:43
only going to be able to work with
135:44
documentation a lot of people don’t like
135:47
to hear this but it’s it’s a realistic
135:49
piece of feedback is that sometimes you
135:51
simply can’t win in those workplaces
135:52
either you’d be willing to take on the
135:54
litigation and really I tip my hat to
135:57
your courage and also I’m rooting for
135:58
you to succeed at it some people don’t
136:01
have the resources the patience the time
136:03
they may not be some industries it would
136:05
just sort of end up if it doesn’t go the
136:07
way you hope you may never be able to
136:09
work in that industry again so it can be
136:11
a really really painful sort of a
136:14
decision to pursue it sometimes easiest
136:16
thing is to find a new position but for
136:19
some people that’s hard because that
136:21
psychopathic supervisor or boss may not
136:24
give them a good recommendation to go
136:26
into the into the sunset with so you
136:29
really may end up being hurt by this
136:32
time spent with this psychopathic boss
136:35
so you know it can be quite bleak
136:36
depending on the situation what does a
136:39
psychopathic boss look like they’re very
136:41
toxic they tend to lie I think or say
136:45
they’re very tall quite short ooh but
136:50
they’re very toxic they’re very they
136:53
tend to lie they tend to manipulate they
136:55
tend to play people against each other
136:57
they thrive under division they like it
136:59
when there’s lots of infighting because
137:01
it tends to do it tends to benefit them
137:04
they can be quite abusive that yelling
137:06
screaming hostility yelling things that
137:09
you would think would get them into
137:10
legal or at least you know HR trouble
137:13
but it doesn’t they tend to take credit
137:16
for stuff that they’re not responsible
137:18
for they steal other people’s ideas they
137:22
are they have inhumane demands on their
137:26
workers they show absolutely no empathy
137:28
to them they’re punitive they’d hire
137:31
fire with you know with almost
137:34
frivolously yeah they would they abuse
137:38
their underlings they maybe
137:39
inappropriate with the people they work
137:41
with sexually or otherwise so it’s it’s
137:44
a bad scene it’s a bad scene and there’s
137:46
no way as an employee to manage them I
137:51
don’t first of all they have power over
137:53
you in this system now like I said in
137:55
the best telling of the story you save
137:57
all your information you have the
137:59
smoking gun you show up at HR that
138:03
there’s somebody above this person in
138:05
the pecking order
138:05
and they say we don’t care how much
138:07
profit they make for us we run a clean
138:10
workplace we’re going to get rid of them
138:11
and we’re going to give you a promotion
138:12
I wish that’s how the story goes it so
138:15
often isn’t and many people will report
138:17
the processes that they were made to go
138:20
through to turn you know to sort of drop
138:23
a dime if you will a really you know
138:25
come come clean – how horrible a
138:29
psychopathic supervisor a boss was its
138:32
reach Ramat izing and like this isn’t
138:34
even worth it anymore and so it can
138:37
break a person and it’s your work it’s
138:38
your livelihood
138:39
and because a psychopathic boss is
138:43
usually very good at their job tend to
138:46
be making money on terms of being sick
138:48
whatever the outcome is yeah yeah
138:49
whatever that looks like right I forgot
138:51
about that so of course the company is
138:53
going to they don’t reward true they
138:56
don’t want it to be true right because
138:58
this person is really willing to do
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sometimes the dark and dastardly things
139:01
you need to do to succeed in certain
139:04
sectors and so it’s a and and they’ll
139:07
try to argue like listen my management
139:09
techniques are being misinterpreted you
139:11
know one person’s intimidation is
139:13
another person sort of I don’t know hard
139:18
driving kind of supervisor mm-hmm
139:21
if somebody decides that they don’t want
139:24
to pursue action with HR and they don’t
139:28
want to leave their job what advice do
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you give them number one you’ve got to
139:34
take care of you
139:35
it can be you know you you’ll be
139:38
horribly depressed on Sunday nights when
139:40
you know you face another day at that
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workplace it is important that you seek
139:45
out therapy therapy is a confidential
139:47
space keep that in mind I do let people
139:51
know though if you are gonna pursue
139:53
civil litigation they will try to get
139:56
your therapists records so just you know
139:58
keep be open with your therapist that
140:00
this is a possibility to like I mean I’m
140:02
just preparing people for the worst case
140:04
scenarios and really psychopathic bosses
140:07
and workplaces they’re going to go in
140:09
and try to do a smear campaign on you so
140:11
you have to be prepared for all those
140:13
things but get the help you need you
140:16
know build friendships in the workplace
140:18
I was reading a very interesting study
140:20
recently and they were talking about how
140:22
when you have a toxic or psychopathic
140:24
boss their underlings may actually unite
140:27
against their you know against their
140:29
single enemy if you will common enemy
140:31
and sometimes they they end up either
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going off and starting their own
140:34
startups or creating creative problem
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solving solutions like creating their
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own community independent of the
140:41
psychopathic boss like they unite and
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provide each other soup and of course
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the Psychopaths boss feels well yeah
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because I am their boss like I made yeah
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I’m a visionary leader or he may get
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really
140:51
harren or she may get really paranoid
140:53
why is everyone uniting against me
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but either way you might be able to find
140:56
you might be able to find support
140:58
another rank-and-file people you work
141:00
with you may not even be rank-and-file
141:01
I mean I’ve worked people with people
141:03
who are at an executive level and it’s
141:05
the person at the next executive level
141:06
that’s causing them misery
141:08
right so it’s no I mean even you know it
141:10
can be at the top of the top top it
141:12
could be down lower it doesn’t matter
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it’s just that that person has power
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over you
141:17
but it’s to get the support you need
141:18
take care of you and then slowly slowly
141:22
start working on that exit strategy
141:23
these kinds of experiences are what have
141:25
led some people to actually pursue new
141:27
career paths go back to school do things
141:30
that they never thought of like move to
141:32
another country like some people just
141:34
viewed as the wake-up call it isn’t for
141:35
some people it’s utter devastation they
141:37
may have worked for decades to establish
141:40
themselves in a career to simply watch
141:42
it get stolen from them by one boss mmm
141:45
well if it’s not your boss it could be
141:47
your coworker yeah what advice do you
141:48
have when dealing with a co-worker which
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is a different dynamic it’s a same with
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a co-worker it’s actually in some ways
141:53
it can be strangely a little more
141:54
problematic because you know you’re
141:57
almost a little less protected at least
141:59
when it’s from the top down you can show
142:01
more negative effects on your job like
142:02
if you get a demotion or something you
142:04
can you can probably plead your case
142:05
better but when it’s a co-worker they
142:08
may be impeding your progress in your
142:09
career again by stealing your ideas by
142:12
creating alliances with co-workers and
142:15
turning them against you by spreading
142:17
lies about you in the workplace it’s
142:19
really easy to try to get in the gutter
142:21
around this stuff for example to
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complain on in social media I have a
142:24
psychopathic boss I have a psychopathic
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co-worker never go there that kind of
142:29
stuff is a big no-no we’re HR is
142:31
concerned and then they’ll have grounds
142:32
to dismiss you you’re just hurting
142:34
yourself some people are just so
142:35
desperately situations they want to put
142:37
the cry for help out there to their
142:39
community social media is not private
142:41
it’s public it’s a public space so you
142:44
have to be very judicious about how you
142:46
try to get that support from other
142:47
people social media is not the way talk
142:50
to friends to talk to a therapist
142:53
document document document document make
142:57
sure you have everything covered all
142:59
your eyes dotted all your t’s crossed a
143:02
psychopathic coworker
143:03
could be
143:04
finding your vulnerability your chink in
143:06
the armor and use that against you so
143:09
you need to make sure that you’re as
143:10
sewn up as possible I understand that
143:12
excellent advice and thank you again for
143:16
walking our viewers through how they can
143:18
deal with people in their life who may
143:20
have an antisocial personality disorder
143:22
in all aspects subscribe below and
143:24
remember this video just scratched the
143:26
surface for more in depth videos on
143:29
mental health topics go to med circle
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143:34
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