In a time of heightened political tension, Jonathan Haidt has a good idea of what’s driving this polarized atmosphere around the world. He is a social psychologist who believes social media has transformed in recent years to become an “outrage machine,” spreading anger and toxicity. He sits down with Hari to discuss this difficult problem and what the possible solutions could be.
Transcript00:00hmm so Jamie pointed out this this00:07congressman is that who it is the Jamie00:11pointed this out that there’s a00:12congressman and he released a series of00:14tweets and the first letter of all these00:17tweets if you put them all together it00:18says Epstein didn’t kill himself or did00:20not kill so notice it didn’t he did how00:25do you do the posture00:26should have gone with did not darting00:28here with that evidence of a link00:30wrapped Paul gaw sir what are the odds00:33this guy did this accidentally really00:35small right that’s kind of like one of00:37those monkeys typing Shakespeare say00:39yeah yeah I don’t think I could it could00:41work and the thing is he did it00:43backwards right so you didn’t see what00:46the puzzle was until the last tweet00:48because the last time he does in E I got00:50a tweet from someone about 35 minutes00:52ago that I don’t know if there’s a bunch00:54of people online paying attention to it00:55or what but someone alerted me and a few00:57other people what it is yeah does he00:59have an image of that fucking that crazy01:01mask is that in his shit too01:03okay he’s a agent he’s got the I was01:07November first V mask yes yeah what is01:10that mask for Vendetta was a01:12representative of something01:14it’s the Guy Fawkes mask yes that’s01:16right right yeah so this guy’s uh he’s01:19he’s thinking along alternative lines of01:21thought but that is really an01:22interesting way of saying it alphabet01:25tree that’s yeah just making a bunch of01:27tweets don’t ever address it just leave01:29it there walk away you know Lewis01:31Carroll was famous for that was he yeah01:33that was one of uh he did a lot of sort01:35of tricks with words you read the book01:38gödel Escher Bach No01:39yeah there’s a whole bunch of stuff in01:41there about people who used who put01:45puzzles in text mmm you know that’s kind01:47of a thing that people did I guess back01:49more in the 18th century in before well01:51this Epstein case is probably the most01:54blatant example of a public murder of a01:59crucial witness I’ve ever seen in my02:00entire life or anybody’s ever seen and02:02the the the minimal amount of outrage02:05about this the no minimal amount of02:07cover it’s fuckin fascinating I mean I02:09what’s amazing to me just as a you know02:12somebody works in the media02:13is that this was shaping up to be the02:15biggest like news story in history yes02:18and the instant he you know he died or02:23was died or however you want to call it02:25it this story just fell off the face of02:27the earth it’s like nobody’s doing02:30anything about it and I I don’t02:32100% understand that I mean I get it why02:35that’s happening but it’s it’s just02:37amazing02:38well when the woman from ABC what was02:41her name Amy that lady the the one who02:46wrote Roebuck you who had the frustrated02:49moment that she called it a frustrating02:51private moment right what she was02:53talking about having the scoop and02:55having that story and them squashing it02:58right like this this is all stuff that03:01everybody used to think was conspiracy03:04everybody’s think this was stoner talk03:06this was you know you don’t I mean like03:08this is stuff where people just a03:11delusional they believe all kinds of03:12wacky conspiracies sure but the reality03:15is much less complicated well this is03:16not possible this is one of those things03:18it’s so obvious it’s so in everyone’s03:21face well there’s a couple of things03:24going on because there there are many03:26different ways than this can play out I03:27mean you could have a news director who03:29just sort of instinctively decides well03:32we can’t do that story because I might03:34want to have well and quedan later or I03:35might want to have this politician on03:37later and it’s it’s not like anybody03:39tells them necessarily that we can’t do03:42this but sighs too hot you if you grow03:44up in this system and you’ve been in the03:46the business for a long time you just03:49you have all these things that are03:51drilled into you and almost like the03:52cellular level about what you can and03:54cannot get into and I think there but03:57there were some explicit things that03:59happen with Epstein to I mean they keep04:00there there were a lot of news agencies04:02that killed stories about him that you04:04know and we’re hearing what some of them04:05in Vanity Fair this thing you know so04:07yeah it’s it’s bit stay it’s bad it’s04:10terrible yeah yeah when when I found out04:13that Clinton flew no less than 26 times04:17on a plane with Epstein I was like dude04:20I haven’t flown that many times with my04:22mom04:23long did he know Epstein yeah I don’t04:26know but I mean they have that many04:28flights to have the Secret Service04:29people involved I mean that’s incredibly04:33bold what was he dealing with just girls04:36was Clinton that much of a hound that he04:40would go that deep into the well that04:42many times 26 times well that’s the04:45thing about the Epson story that makes04:46no sense to me like I I thought that the04:48percentage of people who were out and04:50out like perverts who had a serious04:53problem like with petty ophelia or04:55whatever it was was pretty small you04:57know yeah but your but they had a lot of05:00people coming in and out of this05:02compound and and it just seems like it’s05:04a it’s a very strange story what were05:07they really up to I have I have no idea05:09and was was it all a blackmail scheme05:10it’s just it’s just so strange well05:12seems like the pedophilia aspect of it05:14might be directly connected to Epstein05:16himself like he might be the one that05:19has a problem with girls that are like05:2016 and he likes them very or he did like05:23them but with the other guys it could05:27just be girls05:28it could be yeah yeah I mean that’s why05:29it’s so crazy like how could it be that05:31these but maybe it’s not but they must05:34but they knew who he was05:35yeah but they probably didn’t know the05:37extent of it probably not yeah up until05:40a point up until he was arrested right05:42and then they’re like oh well then05:44that’s when everybody backed off of him05:46right yes yeah I mean I’m not a hundred05:48percent yeah I haven’t covered this05:50story in depth I’ve only I only really05:52got into it a little bit we made you cuz05:59it mixes a lot of things that are are06:00very tough to cover yes you know the06:03intelligence world is very tough to06:04cover mm-hm06:05you know it’s it’s hard to get stories06:07out of there that they don’t want you to06:08have yeah and this is this is like the06:11mother of all stories and you know in06:13terms of that and they’re just little06:15little bread crumbs here and there that06:17whole thing about Acosta06:18you know the vanity vanity fair– quote06:21from him is that when he said that when06:24he looked at the case he didn’t do it06:27because I was told he belonged to06:28intelligence yes what does that mean06:31right now whose intelligence you know06:32what I mean like what agency but what06:34for you06:35and then you pair that with things like06:37you know I have friends on Wall Street06:39who told me I’ve never heard a single06:41instance of this guy actually having a06:43trade right you know so what was his06:45hedge fund doing you know I mean if you06:47think about it hedge funds a perfect way06:48to do blackmail well because you can06:51just have people putting money in and06:52out all the time and it would look like06:55investment yeah so very strange story06:58well Eric Weinstein had a conversation07:00with him you know Eric Weinstein with07:02Peter Thiel capital right yeah he’s like07:04this guy does know what the fuck he’s07:05talking about oh yeah he’s an actor07:09right this is nonsense right right that07:11was initial almost instantaneous07:13response yeah yeah and and and what real07:16clients did he ever have what any07:17jewelry trade and what has he got a07:19billion dollars or whatever he had yeah07:21no it’s half a billion under management07:23yeah it’s ridiculous why the guy who07:25owns Victoria Secrets give him a seventy07:28million dollar home right in New York07:30City like why I mean these are all07:33things that would have been really07:34interesting to get into you know try to07:37kill himself the suicide didn’t happen07:39to him like in the wire all right oh07:41yeah yeah so unfortunate so07:45unfortunately the cameras died so07:47unfortunately sustained an injury that’s07:49uh that you usually only get through07:52strangulation right yeah murders you he07:54fell on the ground and accidentally07:56broke his hyoid bone yeah big deal I08:00mean it’s so bizarre I can’t stand08:03consider conspiracy theories I’m one of08:04these people who who doesn’t like08:06reading but I can’t I can’t make this08:08story work in a way that isn’t you know08:11yes pure toriel’s well that’s the thing08:13it’s like it gets to a point where you08:15like okay even Michael Shermer who runs08:17skeptic magazine wait a minute the08:20cameras we’re not working seems like a08:24conspiracy fucking when Michael Shermer08:26says he that guy doesn’t believe in08:28anything08:28right right he is fucking he’s down the08:31line on virtually every single thing08:33that’s ever happened he doesn’t believe08:35in any conspiracies well well how do you08:37what’s the innocent explanation for any08:39has none that doesn’t make any sense you08:41can’t you can’t spin it in any way to08:43make it not a crazy conspiracies08:46especially when the the brother08:48as a doctor to do an autopsy oh yeah it08:51says date I was fucking murdered right08:53yeah Michael Baden the famous guy from08:55the HBO autopsy show right yep08:57absolutely08:58Oh craziness complete craziness and you09:01know it’s an example of you know the FG09:07star it’s interesting because it’sbecause it’s about villains on bothsides of the aisle right this is aclassic is something I’ve written aboutbefore is that the press does not liketo do stories where the problem isbipartisan yeah right so when you havean institutional problem when Democratsand Republicans both shareresponsibility for it when you know oror if it’s an institution that kind ofexists in perpetuity no matter what theadministration is we don’t really liketo do those stories we like if Fox likesto do stories about Democrats MSNBClikes to do stories about Republicansbut the thing that’s kind of you know09:42all over the place they don’t like to do09:43that story Epstein is you know he’s09:45friends with Trump and and with Clinton09:48I mean yeah obviously has more friends09:49on the Clinton side but still and I09:51think that’s this is one of the reasons09:53why this story doesn’t have a lot of09:55traction in the media because neither09:57side really likes the idea of going too10:00deeply on it feels like to me well it’s10:03but the the blatant aspect of it they10:06don’t mean the closest that we have to10:08that is the absolute murder the JamalKhashoggi murder that’s the closestthing we have to or is absolute murderight this one but but it’s also soinsanely blatant but now you have10:19foreign actors that are involved in it10:20and they all disperse and then there’s10:22left with this confusion of to who’s10:24responsible for it well Saudi Arabia10:27that’s another example where you can’t10:29really say it’s you know one side of theboth parties have been incrediblycomplicit in their cooperation with theSaudi regime and in you know themassacres that are going on Yemen it’s aclassic example of what Noam Chomskyused to talk about with worthy andunworthy victims right like if theSoviet communists did it they were thatwas bad but if death squads in ElSalvador killed a priest or a Catholicpriest you know then that that wassomething we didn’t write about becausethey were our client state Yemen is astory we don’t write about Syriais a story we do write about but they’re11:03really equivalent stories and yeah the11:07but you’re absolutely right the11:08khashoggi thing I don’t think either11:10party and or either sides media really11:12wants to get into that all that deeply11:14how much is media shifting now like11:17you’ve obviously been a journalist for a11:19long time but come how much are things11:21changing in the light of the Internet11:24well a lot and this is what I mean I11:26have a new book out now that’s really11:27about this right what why the business11:29has changed what’s it called hey dink11:31yeah it’s out its out now and it’s it’s11:36really about how the press the business11:38model the press has changed I mean it’s11:40something that you talk about a lot you11:41hear you on your show all the time11:43talking about how news agencies are11:46always trying to push narratives on11:48people trying to get people wound up and11:50upset and that is a conscious business11:53strategy that we didn’t have maybe 3011:56years ago you know you think about11:58Walter Cronkite or what the news was12:00like back in the day you had the whole12:02family sitting around the table and12:04everybody watched it was sort of a12:06unifying experience to watch the news12:08hmm now you have news for the crazy12:11right-wing uncle and then you have news12:12for the kid in the che shirt and their12:15different channels and they’re trying to12:16wind these these people up you know to12:20get them upset constantly and stay there12:22and a lot of that has to do with the12:23Internet because before the internet12:27news companies had like a basically free12:29way of making money they dominated12:31distribution the newspaper was the only12:33thing in town that had a you know if you12:35wanted to get a wan ad it had to be12:37through the local newspaper12:38now with the internet the internet is12:40the distribution system anybody has12:43access to it not just the local12:44newspaper and so there the easy money is12:48gone and we have to chase clicks more12:49than we ever had had to before we have12:52to chase eyeballs more than we have to12:53so we’ve had to build new money-makingstrategies and and a lot of it has to dowith just sort of monetizing anger anddivision and all these things and we13:01just didn’t do that before and it’s a13:03had a profound difference on the13:05on the media as a writer if you13:07personally experienced this sort of the13:10influence where people have tried to13:12lean you in the direction of clickbait13:14or perhaps maybe alter titles that make13:18them a little bit disingenuous in order13:20to get people excited about the I mean13:21you know I my editors at Rolling Stone13:24are pretty good in it and they give me a13:25lot of weight leeway to kind of explore13:27whatever I want to explore but I13:29definitely feel a lot of pressure that I13:30didn’t feel before in the business13:33because especially in the Trump era and13:36and you know I’ve written a lot about13:37the Russia story right but you know13:39that’s an example of one size media does13:43has one take on it and another size13:45media has another take on it and if you13:47are just the journalist and you and you13:49want to just sort of report the facts13:52you feel a lot of pressure to fit the13:53facts into a narrative that your13:55audience is gonna like and I had a lot13:57of problem with the Russia story because13:58I thought you know I don’t like Donald14:00Trump but I’m like I don’t I don’t think14:02this guy’s James Bond consorting with14:04Russian spies I think he’s corrupt in14:07other ways and there was a lot of14:09blowback on my side of the business14:11because you know people in sort of14:15liberal quote-unquote liberal media you14:17just have all there’s a lot of pressure14:18to have everybody fit into a certain14:20narrative and I think that’s really14:21unhealthy for the business yeah14:23very unhealthy right it’s you know14:25because as soon as people can be14:26manipulated to conform it to that14:27narrative then all sorts of stories can14:29be shifted oh yeah yeah absolutely and14:32and you the the job used to be about14:35challenging your audience every now and14:37then right like if you think a certain14:38thing is true well it’s our job to give14:40you the bad news and say that you’re14:41wrong about that that used to be what14:43the job was to be journalists now it’s14:45the opposite now we have an audience14:48we’re gonna tell you exactly what you14:49want to hear and what you and we’re14:51gonna reinforce what you think and14:53that’s very unhealthy a great example of14:56this was in the summer of 2016 I was15:00covering the campaign I started to hear15:03reporters talking about how they didn’t15:06want to report poll numbers that showed15:08the race was closed they thought that15:10that was gonna hurt Hillary all right15:12like we said in other words we had15:13information that the race was closed and15:15we’re not telling this to audiences15:17because15:18they wanted to hear that it was gonna be15:20a blowout for Hillary right on and that15:23didn’t help Hillary it didn’t help the15:25Democrats do not warn people about this15:27right but it was just because if you15:30turned on MSNBC or CNN and you heard15:33that Trump was within five points or15:35whatever it was that was gonna be a15:37bummer for that audience so we stayed15:39away from it and you know this is the15:42kind of thing it’s it’s not politically15:44beneficial to anybody it’s just we’re15:46just trying to keep people glued to the15:48set by telling them what they want to15:50hear and that’s not the news that’s not15:51that’s not our job you know and it15:53drives me crazy15:55yeah it should drive you crazy that what15:57you said about journalism being it used16:00to be something that you’re challenging16:02your reader you’re you’re giving them16:04this reality that may be uncomfortable16:06but it’s it’s educational and expands16:09their view of the world this where do16:11they get that now they don’t that’s the16:13whole problem16:14like you get you can predict exactly16:17what the each news organization what16:21their take is going to be on any issue16:23by going oh16:24just did you take an example when when16:28the business about the Isis leader al16:30Baghdadi16:31being killed hit the news16:34instantaneously you knew that the New16:36York Times CNN and the Washington Post16:39that they were going to write a whole16:40bunch of stories about how Trump was16:42overplaying the significance of it that16:44he you know that he was telling lies16:48about it they were they mate they you16:50knew they were gonna make the entire16:51thing about Trump and then meanwhile Fox16:54had a completely different spin on about16:55how heroic it was but but news audiences16:58didn’t have anywhere to go to just16:59simply hear who was this person17:01why was he important what were the17:03growth of the people in the region think17:05you know what kind of what is this gonna17:07mean going forward is they actually17:09gonna have any impact you know is are we17:13gonna have to continually you know is17:16there gonna be a new person like this17:17every every time are we actually17:19accomplishing it you don’t get that17:21anywhere all you get is Trump is a17:23shithead on one side and Trump is a hero17:25on the other side that’s that’s not the17:27news you know yeah and but the thing is17:29it’s like17:31the business aspect of it is so weird17:33like you have your guys like Hannity or17:35you can absolutely predict what that17:37guy’s gonna say every single time you17:38know what side he’s on and he’s blatant17:41about it mhm and when you see someone17:45like that you go okay well this is okay17:47where this is this is peak bullshit17:48right so where where do we go where I17:51see both sides where’s the where’s the17:53where’s the middle ground where someone17:55goes well this is true but you gotta say17:57this is honest too and this is this is17:59what’s going on over on this side and18:00the Republicans have a point here and18:02you don’t you don’t18:04there’s no mainstream media place where18:07you can go for that right now18:08no there isn’t and that’s I mean I mean18:10one of this is one of things already but18:11this is one of the reasons why shows18:12like yours are so popular I mean I think18:14there’s a complete loss of trust that18:17they feel like people are not being18:18honest with them all right and they’re18:20not being straight and you know they18:22they come to people like you and and a18:25lot of other people of independent folks18:27who aren’t like the quote-unquote18:29mainstream media because they it’s not18:34really thought it’s not reporting it’s18:36not anything if you can predict a18:37hundred percent what a person’s going to18:39say that’s not thinking that’s not18:41reporting that’s not it’s just marketing18:42someone like me that’s so disturbing I’m18:44a fuckin comedian and a Cagefighting18:46commentator when people are coming to me18:48like this is this is the source where18:51you go for unbiased representations of18:53what’s going on the world that’s crazy18:55well I mean I started interview with18:58Barry Weiss right and you just you did a19:01simple base you didn’t go to journalism19:02school right no no so she said something19:06about how you know oh she’s an Assad19:09toady and you said what does that mean19:12you just ask the simple basic questions19:14right what does that mean where is that19:16coming from how do you know that you19:18know yeah like journalism isn’t brain19:21surgery that’s all it is is to asking19:22the simple questions that sort of pop to19:24mind when you when you’re in a situation19:26like where did this happen how do we19:28know that that’s true and but there’s a19:32whole generation of people in the press19:33now who just simply do not do that go19:36through the process of just asking19:37simple questions like how do I know19:39that’s true like after each story your19:41report you’re supposed to kind of like19:43wipe your memory clean and start over19:45so just because somebody was banned the19:47last time you covered them doesn’t mean19:48that they’re necessarily going to be the19:50bad guy this time you cover them all19:52right you have to continually test your19:54assumptions and ask yourself is this19:57true is that true is this true how do we19:59know this and we’ve just stopped doing20:02that like the it’s just the maratha of20:04like pre-written20:06takes on things and it’s it’s really20:09really bad and you can see why audiences20:12are fleeing from this stuff they just20:14don’t have the impact they used to well20:16it’s really interesting this a lot of20:17this is this unpredicted consequence of20:20having these open platforms like20:22Facebook and like where people are20:24getting their news and then the20:25algorithm sort of directs them towards20:28things that are going to piss them off20:30which I don’t even think necessarily was20:33initially the plan I think the plan is20:35to accelerate engagement right so they20:37find out what what what you’re engaging20:40with what stories you’re engaging with20:41and then they give you more of that like20:44re my friend Ari Shaffir actually tried20:47this out and what he did was he went on20:50YouTube and only looked puppy videos and20:54that’s all he looked at for like weeks20:56and then YouTube only started20:58recommending puppy videos to him so it’s21:01not necessarily that Facebook wants you21:04to be outraged but that when you are21:06outraged whether it’s over abortion or21:08war whatever the subject is you’re going21:10to engage more and their algorithm21:12favors you engaging more so if you’re21:14engaging more about something very21:16positive you know if you’re all about21:17yoga and meditation your algorithm would21:20probably favor yoga and meditation21:22because those are the things that you21:23engage with but it’s natural for people21:26to be pissed off sure to look for things21:29that are annoying especially if you’re21:30done working and you’re like kind this21:31world sucks what’s going on that sucks21:33worse and then you go to your Facebook21:35and oh Jesus look at this goddamn border21:37crisis right oh Jesus look at this while21:39fucking here’s the problem with these21:41goddamn liberal they don’t know sure and21:42you engage and then that’s your life and21:46then it’s it’s saying oh I know how to21:47get mad all fired up I’m gonna fucking21:49send them some abortion stories whoa21:51right and then that’s your feed right21:53yeah exactly but the but there’s so many21:55economic incentives that go in there21:57right they know the21:58more that you engage the longer that22:01you’re on right the more ads yes you can22:03you’re gonna see yeah right so that same22:05dynamic that Facebook and and the social22:08media companies figure it out22:10which is that if you keep feeding22:12something somebody something that you22:14know has been proven to spin that person22:16up and get them wound up that they’re22:18gonna they’re gonna come back for more22:20of it and they’re gonna keep coming back22:22and actually you can expand their desire22:24just to see that stuff by by making them22:27sort of more angry overall and they will22:31they will come back and they will spend22:33more and more and more time well the22:34news companies figured out the same22:35thing and they’re just they’re just22:36funneling stuff at you that they know22:39you’re gonna you’re gonna just be in an22:42endless cycle of sort of an impotent22:43mute rage all the time but it’s kind of22:46addicting you know and they know that22:48and in there and it’s it’s sort of like22:50the tobacco companies they know it’s a22:51bet it’s a product that’s bad for you22:53and they just keep giving it to you22:55because you know it makes money for them22:56yeah and it’s just the thing about it is23:00all of it is about ads told how many23:04clicks they get in ads if they just said23:06you can have a social media company but23:08you can’t have ads there’s a new federal23:11law no more ads on Facebook no more ads23:13on YouTube no our ads on Twitter no more23:16ads on Instagram good luck right yeah23:19we’re all collapse yo yeah but that23:22seems to be what it is it’s like they23:24figured out that your data is worth a23:26tremendous amount of money and the way23:29they can utilize that money is to sell23:31advertising mm-hmm ya know they they23:33coulda coming and going because they’re23:35they’re not only selling you ads or but23:38they’re also collecting the information23:39about your habits which they can then23:41sell again yeah so it’s a it’s a dual23:43revenue stream you know is it the media23:46companies they’re basically they’re just23:49consumer businesses where they’re23:51they’re trading attention for ad space23:53right so if they can get you to watch23:55four hours of television a day they have23:57that many ad slots that they can show23:59you and they know how much money they’re24:00gonna make you know but the the social24:02media companies get it two ways they’re24:04they they get it by you know attracting24:06your eyeballs and then also selling24:08selling your habits to the other the24:10next set of advertise24:11which you know is very insidious but24:13what’s interesting about this is that24:14most people don’t think about this as a24:17consumer business right like Americans24:19these days are very conscious of like24:20what they put in their bodies24:21you know they won’t eat too many candy24:23bowl depending on who they are right but24:25people at least look at what the24:26calories are but they don’t think about24:28the news that way or social media like24:31that with it put on their brains and24:32it’s also a consumer product yeah it24:34really is I’ve gone over that many times24:37with people that that’s a diet this is24:39your diet you have a mental diet as well24:41as you have a physical like food diet24:43absolutely of an information diet and a24:46lot of people are just eating shit with24:48their brain it’s the worst kind of junk24:50food it’s like it’s like a cigarette24:52sandwich the stuff yeah it’s so fucking24:54bad and it’s getting worse it is it is24:56getting worse and it’s what’s weird is24:58that this is a ten-year-old problem and25:00no one saw it coming and it’s kind of25:02overtaking politics it’s overtaking the25:04social discourse everybody’s wrapped up25:07in social media conversations they carry25:09them on over to the dinner table and it25:11gets people in arguments at work and all25:14this stuff no one saw coming these that25:17no one saw the this outrage economy from25:21you know social media sites from things25:23like Facebook no one saw that no one no25:25one ever predicted that your data was25:27gonna be so valuable no the fuck saw25:29that I don’t think anybody I mean I25:32think some people in the tech business25:33probably saw early on yeah it’s a25:35potential for this but you know in terms25:38of other other businesses like the news25:41media and also politics I mean you have25:43to think about the impact of this on25:45politics has been enormous25:47you know I covered Donald Trump Trump25:50really was just all about whatever25:52you’re pissed off about I’m right there25:54with you you know and people are just25:56sort of pissed off about lots of things25:58these days because they’re doing this25:59all day long you know and if you if you26:02can if you can take advantage of that26:05then you’re gonna have a lot of success26:06and I think I think a lot of people26:07haven’t figured that out and some of26:09these things are real causes like people26:11are upset about real things but it’s26:14just yeah you’re absolutely right people26:16did not see this coming and they didn’t26:18prepare for it’s just weird that it’s26:19one of the biggest sources of income on26:22and people didn’t see it coming I mean26:24Facebook is generating billions of26:27dollars and now yeah potentially26:29shifting global politics yeah and you26:33know the the whole issue of a couple of26:36companies like Facebook having control26:39over what you do and do not see is yeah26:41it’s an enormous problem that nobody26:43nobody really cares about I’ve tried to26:45write about it a few times I’ve written26:47a couple of features about it what about26:49how what a serious problem this is look26:51if you look at other countries like26:53Israel China there there are a number of26:58companies where you’ve seen this this26:59pattern of internet platforms27:02liaison with the government to decide27:04what people can and cannot see and27:06they’ll say well we don’t want to see27:09you know Palestinian protest movement so27:11we don’t want to see you know the27:13Venezuelan Channel tell us or like we27:16want to take that off you think about27:18how that could end up happening in the27:20United States and it is already a little27:21bit happening it’s a little bit but it27:23seems to be happening only in the terms27:25of like leaning towards the progressive27:27side which people are okay with because27:28they think especially in the light of27:30Donald Trump being in office this is27:32acceptable censorship yeah but they’re I27:34think they’re wrong about I think you’re27:36wrong about that – yeah and terribly27:38dangerous27:38it’s very short-sighted yes in and they27:41and I think there’s there’s also this27:43thing that happens with people where27:46they think well this is never gonna27:48happen to me you know like you can do27:50that bad thing to this person that I27:52don’t like but you know as long as it’s27:53never gonna happen to me exactly but27:55they’re wrong and my history shows it27:57always does happen to you you know and27:58that’s so we’re giving these companies28:00an enormous amount of power to decide28:02all kinds of things what we look at what28:06what kind of political ideas we can be28:08exposed to you know I think it’s very28:11very dangerous28:11that biased interpretation of what28:13something is that was what people talked28:16about when the initial Patriot Act was28:18enacted when people were like hey this28:21might be fine with Obama in office right28:23maybe Obama is not going to enact some28:28of the worst clauses of this and use it28:30on people or the was the NDAA so I would28:34rise yeah28:35where some of the things were just28:36completely unconstitutional but don’t28:38worry we’re not gonna use those but28:40you’re setting these tools aside for28:43whatever fucking president we have like28:45what if we have a guy you out trumps28:46Trump right I mean we never thought we’d28:48have a Trump right what if we have a28:50next-level guy post Trump what if28:52there’s some sort of catastrophe tragedy28:56attack something that really gets people28:59fired up and they vote in someone who29:01takes it up to another level and then he29:03has these tools and then he uses these29:04tools on his political enemies which is29:06entirely possible well I mean we’ve29:08already seen that a little bit I mean29:10people don’t want to bring this up I29:11mean i but you know a lot of the stories29:14that have come out about Trump they’re29:15coming from leaks of classified29:17information that are coming from those29:19war on terror programs that were29:21instituted after 9/11 yes this is five29:23the certifies Amendments Act the NSA29:26programs to collect data like they’re29:27they’re unmasking people like we have a29:30lot of evidence now that there was a29:32lawsuit a couple that came out about a29:33month ago that showed that the FBI was29:37doing something like 60,000 searches a29:39month at one point where they’re on you29:42know they were asking the NSA for the29:44ability to unmask names and that that29:45sort of thing so we’re I mean these29:49tools are incredibly powerful they’re29:51incredibly dangerous but people thought29:52after 9/11 they were scared so you know29:55we want to protect ourselves so that’s29:57okay for now29:58you know well we’ll pull it back later30:00but they mean it but you never do pull30:02it back right no and I mean it always30:04ends up being used by somebody in the30:06wrong way and I think we’re starting to30:08see that that’s going to be a problem30:09yeah I’m real concerned about places30:13like Google and Facebook altering the30:16path of free speech and and leaning30:20people in certain directions and30:21silencing people that have opposing30:23viewpoints and the fact that they think30:26that they’re doing this for good because30:28this is how they see the world and they30:30don’t understand that you have to let30:32these ideas play out in the marketplace30:34of free speech and free ideas if you30:36don’t do that if you don’t do that if30:38you don’t let people debate the merits30:40the pros the cons what’s wrong what’s30:42right if you don’t do that then you30:44don’t get real discourse if you don’t30:45get real discourse you’re essentially30:47you’ve got some sort30:48of an intellectual dictatorship going on30:49and because it’s a progressive30:51dictatorship you think it’s okay because30:53it’s people who want everybody be30:55inclusive and you know I mean this is30:58this is a weird time for that it’s a31:00really weird time for that because as31:01you said people are so short-sighted31:03they don’t understand that these like31:05the First Amendment’s in place for a31:07very good reason and set up a long31:09fucking time ago because they did the31:10math they saw where it was going and31:12they were like look we have to have the31:14ability to express ourselves we have to31:15have the ability to freely express31:18thoughts and ideas and challenge people31:20that are in a position of power because31:21if we don’t we wind up exactly where we31:24came from mm-hmm yeah no and and courts31:27continually reaffirmed that idea that31:30the the the way to deal with bad speech31:33was with more speech yes and they did it31:35over and over and over again you know we31:37we the the legal standard for speech you31:41know still I think remains that unless31:45it’s directly inciting violence you31:46couldn’t you could like you can have31:47speech that incites violence generally31:49and even the the Supreme Court even31:51upheld that you can have speech that’s31:53that comes from you know material that31:55was stolen illegally that’s okay but we31:58had a very very high bar for prohibiting32:00speech always and you know the the32:03liable cases this the cases for32:05defamation you know that also32:08established a very very high standard32:09for punishing speech but now all of a32:12sudden people have a completely32:13different idea but it’s like you know32:15forget about the fact that this was a32:17fundamental concept in American society32:19for you know two hundred and thirty32:21years or what they just want to change32:22it you know without thinking about the32:25consequences well that’s where a guy32:26like Trump could be almost like it’s32:30almost like a Trojan horse in a way like32:33if you wanted to play 3d chess which you32:35would do you’d get a guy who’s just so32:37egregious and so outrageous and then so32:40many people opposed them get that guy32:42let him get into a position of power and32:44then sit back watch the outrage bubble32:46and then take advantage of that and32:48funnel people into certain directions I32:50mean I don’t think that’s what’s32:51happening but if I was super fucking32:54tinfoil Hattie that’s how I would go32:57about it I would say this is what you32:58want if you really want to change things33:00for your direction33:01put someone that opposes it that’s33:04disgusting and that way people just a33:07rational intelligent person is never33:10gonna side with him33:11so they’re gonna side with the people33:12that oppose him and then you could sneak33:14a lot of shit in that maybe they33:15wouldn’t agree with and any other33:16circumstance yeah Trump’s election sort33:19of like another 9/11 right like you know33:219/11 happened all of a sudden people who33:23weren’t in favor of the government being33:25able to go through your library records33:27or listen to your phone calls and all of33:29a sudden they were like oh Jesus I’m so33:30freaked out like yeah fine when Trump33:33got elected all of a sudden people33:34suddenly had very different ideas about33:36speech and like they you know hey that33:39guy’s so bad you know that maybe we33:42should consider banning x y&z yeah and I33:46yeah it’s me if he was conceived as a33:52way to discredit the First Amendment and33:55some other ideas that would that would33:57that would be a brilliant 3d chess move33:59yeah super sneaky yeah that’s like China34:02level many steps ahead exactly I mean34:07what do you think all this goes it seems34:11like this is I mean obviously just wrote34:13a book about it but it seems like this34:15is accelerating and it doesn’t seem like34:18anyone’s taking a step back and hitting34:20the brakes or opting out it seems like34:23people are just ramping up the rhetoric34:25yeah I mean I think that the the34:27divisive miss problem is is going to get34:29worse before it gets better34:32the the business model of of of the34:35media now is so entrenched that until34:39some of these these companies start34:42going out of business because they’re34:43doing you know they’re losing audience34:46because people don’t trust them anymore34:48the you know the news is going to keep34:50doing what it’s doing it’s gonna Canada34:52model is gonna become normal for for34:55news companies I think it or it already34:57basically is you know on both the left34:59and the right and in terms of you know35:02the Internet companies they’re35:05consolidating they’re getting more and35:06more power all the time and there’s I I35:09think we’ve already seen that people35:11have I think too much tolerance for35:13letting letting them make decisions35:14about35:15what we can and cannot see and I think35:18it’s gonna get worse before it gets35:19better I don’t know what do you think I35:20yeah that’s what I think I mean Facebook35:22Twitter all these play Twitter has some35:24of the most ridiculous reasons for35:25banning people one of them is dead35:27naming oh yeah35:28so if you call Caitlyn Jenner Bruce35:30right okay I like you better when you35:32were Bruce banned for life right you35:34can’t even say I liked you better when35:35you were Bruce banned for life right35:38yeah and and and actually that that35:40what’s really interesting about that is35:42that’s a that’s a core concept that35:46we’ve changed completely like all the35:48different ways in the past that we35:49punished speech we punished the speech35:52not the person yes right so if you know35:55liable defamation all those things first35:58of all they were all done through the35:59courts so you had a way to fight back if36:02you thought you were unjustly accused of36:04having defamed somebody or live with36:05somebody but if they found against you36:08the person who got something out of it36:11was the person who was directly harmed36:12right and again the courts judged that36:14and they you know it wasn’t like you36:17were banned from for life from ever36:19speaking again right they just gave a36:21bunch of money to a person who might36:23have suffered some kind of career injury36:24or whatever it was because of that and36:28usually there was a retraction or it was36:30removed from the press or whatever it36:31was but it wasn’t like we were we were36:33saying we’re never gonna allow you to be36:35hurt or seen from again we kind of won’t36:38we were sort of encouraging36:39optimistically people to get better36:41right and yeah and to be different right36:44now and now we’re not doing that at all36:45now we’re just saying you won one strike36:47or two strikes whatever you’re gone and36:49it’s not like it’s a public thing so you36:52can’t sue over it right yeah well that’s36:54what’s crazy about it because it is a36:56public utility in a way yes it is even36:59Jack Dorsey from Twitter and admitted as37:02much on the podcast and he wishes that37:04we would view it that way he’s actually37:05proposed two versions of Twitter a37:08Twitter with their standard censorship37:11in place and then a Wild West Twitter37:13mm-hmm but I’m like sign me up right37:15yeah on that Wild West Twitter right is37:17the problem with like things like gab37:19and I’ve gone there a few times and37:22watched it and I mean even Milo Union37:24appleís is criticized for being this is37:26that it’s just like so hate-filled37:27because it’s the place where you can go37:29and37:29fuckin say anything right so the only37:31people that it’s attracting are people37:33that just want to go there and just37:34fucking shoot off canons of n-bombs and37:36RAL everybody a kike it’s crazy37:39I mean it’s and there’s real37:41communication there as well there’s37:43there’s plenty of that too but the sheer37:47number of people that go there just to37:49blow off steam because they can’t say37:51those things on Twitter or Facebook or37:53any other social media platform without37:55being banned because of that it becomes37:57a channel for it mm-hmm you know and37:59it’s like it doesn’t get a chance it38:01doesn’t get a chance to the concept is38:03great the concept is if you’re not doing38:05anything illegal we’re not gonna stop38:07you’re not daxing anybody you’re not38:08threatening anybody’s life we’re not38:09gonna stop you go ahead but if you you38:11do that and you’re the only one that38:13does that unfortunately everyone who38:15wants to just say fucked up shit goes38:18right and you get a disproportionate38:19amount of fucked up shit38:21yeah and it’s directly because the fact38:23that these places like Twitter or38:24Facebook have censored and they make it38:27so you are scared to say whatever you38:29want to say mm-hmm and so you can so38:31even if you have controversial ideas38:33that maybe some people would agree with38:34in someone you get banned for life for38:37just controversial ideas even38:39controversial ideas that are38:40scientifically and biologically factual38:43right the transgender issue like if you38:46say there’s a woman I brought her up a38:48million times when Megan Murphy yes a38:51man is never a woman she says they tell38:53her to take it down she takes a38:55screenshot of it puts that up takes it38:57down but takes a screenshot of the38:59initial tweet haha look at that banned39:02for life right a man is never a woman is39:04a fact that is a fact it’s a biological39:06fact now if you decide to become a woman39:09and we recognize you as a woman in39:11society well that’s just common courtesy39:12in my eyes like you have a person who39:14has this issue they feel like they were39:16born in the wrong body okay I get that39:18I’m cool with that39:19but to make it so that you’re banned39:21forever you can call someone a dumb fuck39:24an idiot a piece of shit your mother39:27should have swallowed you everybody’s39:28like yeah do Petain Terms of Service39:29seem fine here everything’s good say a39:32man is never a woman gone for life right39:35yeah Caitlyn Jenner I liked you better39:37when you’re bruce dunn that’s it yeah no39:40and and it’s crazy and obviously39:42people see that and they and they just39:44get matter and and it seems to39:46legitimate39:47it makes people very very resentful in39:50ways that they wouldn’t be otherwise it39:52makes there’s no pathway there’s no39:54there’s no other thing right there’s no39:56free speech platform that’s universally39:59accepted like these ones like I said40:02like gab or there’s a couple other ones40:03out there there’s not no one’s using40:06them yeah it’s a very small percentage40:07of the people in comparison to something40:09like Twitter which is enormous right and40:11so because people don’t want to be40:13kicked off the platform they’re40:14radically changing there is no sense40:18right and we’re seeing this a lot also40:19with political ideas to like you know40:22you know I have a podcast used useful40:24idiots it’s called right we’re like we40:26try to talk to people who are kind of40:28excluded from mainstream media because40:30that’s happening a lot now right like if40:32you have the wrong idea about anything40:35whether it’s Russia gate or the40:38israel-palestine conflict or Syria or40:40whatever it is you’ll you will suddenly40:44be sort of labeled I mean with tulsi40:46gabbard friends they call her an40:47assadist right like once you get stuck40:50with the term assadist on twitter nobody40:52wants to associate you with you no one40:54wants to defend you right they all kind40:56of and be it’s your you’re like suddenly40:59like the kid with lice and people don’t41:02want that to happen to them so they stop41:04saying X Y & Z yeah right and and they41:06just sort of go with with the flow will41:08go with the crowd and it causes this41:10sort of you know uniform conformist41:16discourse that does isn’t really about41:18anything right people are afraid to talk41:20which is crazy yeah right well you’re41:23not supposed to talk to someone I41:25experience this all the time the this41:27idea of giving someone a platform like41:29look if I have someone on like a ben41:31shapiro or something like that you41:32shouldn’t give that guy a platform well41:34he’s already got a platform should41:36wouldn’t be better if I just talk to him41:37and find out what his ideas are and ask41:40him about those ideas like we had a very41:41bizarre conversation about gay people41:43where it means basically full on41:46biblical religious interpretation of gay41:49people which to me is always strange41:52like okay how do you stand on shellfish41:54you know do you41:56just as strong on shrimp whereas your on41:59gay guys right like why is it gay guys42:02it’s that like the Bible’s pretty clear42:05on a bunch of different things that42:07don’t seem to fire people up the way42:10homosexuality does like why why do you42:13care if you had a friend that was eating42:14shrimp would you go to his house we had42:16shrimp cocktail no but you wouldn’t go42:18to a friend’s house if he was having a42:20gay marriage mm-hmm so you won’t42:23celebrate gay marriage but you don’t42:25mind a guy who’s got a fucking a42:27shellfish platter right out at a party42:30like that’s in the Bible man right42:33you’re not supposed to wear two42:33different kinds of cloth you you know42:36that is the bunt there’s a bunch of shit42:38in the Bible that you like Wow God was42:40wrong about that like how confident are42:42you right how comforting you that you42:44can interpret God’s Word so perfectly42:46that you’re like you let the lobster42:48slide but all that but fucking we got to42:50stop that you know like it’s really42:52weird but that’s the whole point of you42:54to challenge the idea yes yes but but42:57the prevailing view now is that even43:00having the discussion yes because you43:03have a platform I mean I read that thing43:05in Al and the Atlantic you know where43:06they’re like you you you give people to43:09I forget what the phrase was they were43:11saying something like you had I give to43:14people too many chances too many chances43:15the people who had already forfeited the43:17right to have them or something43:18something along those lines but that was43:20silly yeah guy gave up his hand when he43:21said about me that I’m inexhaustible but43:24that he like snaps right oh it’s about43:27you and now that’s what it is you not43:30you like naps okay so you don’t like43:32people that have energy I’m super sorry43:34but the the you know I thought that43:36piece was really interesting because43:38that the whole idea that there are43:40people who have forfeited the right to43:42take a forever to communicate forever43:44well who decides that I mean it again43:46there’s this there’s this intellectual43:48snob ISM yet goes on and you know43:52frankly on my side of the media aisle43:54where well we’ll decide what what an43:56appropriate thought is what’s what’s43:58right thinking what’s wrong thinking you44:01know what who gets to have a platform44:03who doesn’t get to have a platform who44:04we who were gonna call a monster who are44:06not currently I mean Minh Tunder stand44:09that the arrogance where44:10from to decide that some people you know44:13and I totally disagree with people like44:14you know Alex Jones or Shapiro or you44:17know most things and but I don’t think44:20that they should be wiped off the face44:21of the earth I mean I don’t know44:23well it’s interesting to challenge44:24people on these weird ideas and find out44:26how they come to them and and you will44:28get a lot of fence sitters that will44:30recognize the flaws in their thinking if44:32you let them talk because there’s a lot44:34of people that aren’t sure either way44:35maybe they haven’t invested a lot of44:37time investigating it maybe they really44:39don’t know what this guy stands for44:41maybe they just read a cartoonish44:42version of who he is and then you get to44:44hear them talking to go oh well I see44:46the flaw in his thinking or oh well he’s44:49right about some things and a lot of44:50people are right about some things44:52they’re wrong about things and they’re44:54right about things and the only way you44:55can discern that is you communicate with44:58them but as soon as you deep platform44:59people like forever you’re just gonna45:01make a bunch of angry people you’re just45:03gonna make a bunch of people that are45:05completely distrusting and you’re gonna45:07absolutely empower the opponents of your45:10ideas but like people that do get to45:13when when do they get a chance to have45:14their voice well when they vote so the45:17more you do this shit the more you45:18censor conservatives the more they’re45:20gonna vote against liberals this is just45:22a fact45:23mm-hmm there’s no getting around that45:24this is human nature yeah I mean I I45:26lived in the former Soviet Union you45:30know for 11 years and 100% if you lived45:36in Soviet Russia and something was45:38published by an official publisher45:40people thought it was basically bullshit45:42right but if it was in the samizdat if45:45it was in the privately circled stuff45:47that had been repressed and censored45:48people thought that was the coolest45:50thing in the world like that that was45:51the hot ticket right and you’re45:53automatically giving something cachet45:56and an added weight by censoring it I46:01mean this is just proof it’s just the46:02way it works it’s human nature if people46:04think that you don’t want them to see46:05something they’re gonna run through it46:07twice as hard you know so I just don’t46:09understand a lot of that instinct I46:11think people people have this idea that46:13it works that you know the deep46:16platforming works but you can’t deep46:18platformer an idea you know you may be46:20able to do it to a person or to yes but46:23you eventually46:23you have to confront the idea you could46:25do it to a few people and it has been46:27successful which is one of the reason46:28why people are so emboldened like they46:30have a successful IDI platform Milo46:32mm-hmm I mean they really have it’s very46:34hard to hear him talk anymore you don’t46:36he’s not in the public conversation the46:39way he used to be right because they46:41kicked him off of all these different46:42platforms and if you go into why they46:45kicked him off these different platforms46:46but even if you don’t agree with him and46:48I don’t own a lot of things like boy I46:51don’t agree with kicking him off those46:52platforms if you you listen to what he46:54got kicked off for it’s like man I don’t46:56know this this doesn’t seem like this46:58makes a lot of sense yeah no I mean the47:01same thing with Alex Jones47:02yeah Alex Alex Jones has said you know47:05he’s got after me a couple of times in47:07ways that were pretty funny actually but47:09when he was you know kicked off the all47:12these platforms you know I wrote a piece47:14saying I think people are kind of doing47:16an end zone dance a little early on this47:18one you know because you Jones is a47:22classic example of how the system47:25the way the system used to work they47:26would have punished him for for being in47:29the libelous about the Sandy Hook thing47:31right because that that would sort of47:33fit the classic definition of what was47:34what prohibited speech was before but we47:37wouldn’t any he would have lost probably47:39a lot and he still might on in those47:41court cases but to remove him forever I47:44think you know it just sets it it47:48creates a new way of dealing with speech47:51that I think is very dangerous you know47:53right because the goalposts keep getting47:54moved right if you can ban him for that47:57then why don’t you ban me for repeating47:59the things that I said about Megan48:01Murphy right or ban because what I said48:03about Bruce Jenner banned this for that48:06I mean you it gets you get further and48:08further down the line you keep moving48:09these goalposts and next thing you know48:11you’re in a very rigid tightly48:13controlled area where you can48:15communicate and you’re suppressed and48:17that just it accelerates your desire to48:21step out of that boundary and it makes48:23you want to say things that maybe you48:24wouldn’t even have thought of before and48:26also logistically it’s an incredibly48:28it’s a it’s an insane thing to even48:31think about asking platforms to48:34rationally go through all this content I48:36talked to somebody who48:37a pretty high-ranking Facebook executive48:38after the Alex Jones thing and he said48:41think about what we used to used to do48:42just to keep porn off Facebook and we’re48:46dealing with what a couple of billion48:48items of content every single day we had48:50these really high-tech algorithms that48:52we design to look for flesh tones at48:54that site and that’s how the Vietnamese48:57running girl photo got taken off48:59Facebook because they like automatically49:01spotted a naked girl I know and they49:04took that down you know the he’s like49:07the Facebook I’ll go doesn’t know that’s49:08an icon of fucking journalism right like49:10it just knows it’s a naked girl so you49:13say you take that and now you’re gonna49:15ask Facebook to make decisions about49:17about ideas right like if it’s that hard49:21and that expensive for us to go through49:23and just just to keep child porn off of49:27Facebook think about how crazy it’s49:29gonna be when we when we start having49:31entry-level people deciding what is and49:33is not appropriate political content49:35yeah it’s it’s not only gonna be49:37impossible to enforce it’s it’s gonna49:41they’re gonna make a mess of it and they49:43will and they already are you know and I49:44think that’s what we’re seeing well49:46that’s why Twitter so weird because you49:48can get away with shit on Facebook you49:50can say things on Facebook like Facebook49:52doesn’t have a policy about dead naming49:54or Facebook doesn’t have a policy about49:56misgendering people but they do have a49:59porn policy50:00well now Twitter you can have porn right50:04me then I will have to be very careful50:06when I give my phone to my kids50:08that make sure they don’t open up the50:09fucking Twitter app yeah because I50:11follow a lot of dirty girls and some of50:12them I mean they’re it’s just right50:15there there’s no warning bang right in50:17your face I mean it’s kind of crazy50:18right they have such an open policy when50:22it comes to sex which I’m happy they do50:24I’m happy not even that I want to see50:26porn but I’m happy that their attitude50:28is just fine it’s legal do yeah you50:32don’t have to follow those people if you50:33don’t like it seems like it’s in the50:35American spirit to be I know but but it50:38all comes down to for me but but ya know50:41the the policies are completely50:43inconsistent to with with Twitter like50:45I’ve seen I mean I’ve talked to people50:46who have been removed from Twitter for50:49saying pretty50:50you know pretty borderline things right50:53like they’re you know basically pretty50:55mild insults or something that would be50:57threatening only if you really splinted50:59hard you know51:00there was a guy from the Ron Paul51:01Institute who got this who got taken51:03down for instance because he was having51:04a fight with some you know guy who was I51:07think a Clinton fan I forget what it was51:09exactly but you’ll see behavior that’s51:13much worse from people who have another51:16political ilk and they will not be51:18removed or they might be a smaller51:20profile person they won’t be removed so51:22and then what is that all about right51:24like if if it’s only a person who has51:2520,000 followers or higher we’re gonna51:27mean it’s just so you just can’t do it51:30there’s just too many layers and anyway51:33I’m against it just generally but just51:35in terms of logistics it doesn’t make51:36any sense I’m against it generally too51:38and when I talked to Jack and he was51:39explaining to me the problems with51:41trying to manage things at scale you51:44really kind of get a sense of it like oh51:46you guys are dealing with billions and51:48billions of humans using these things51:50right yeah yeah and and but they’re51:53already you know in many countries51:56around the world they have armies of51:59thousands of people who go through52:01content to try to flag this or that kind52:03of political content yeah in a niche52:05people yeah they have you know in52:07Germany has like it got I forget what52:10the term was they had this um some52:11really scary sort of authoritarian word52:13for like filtration centers or something52:15like that52:16you know the Chinese have have armies of52:20people I mean I did a story about52:21Facebook and how it was you know teaming52:25up with groups like the the Atlantic52:27Council here in the United States52:28remember a couple of years ago the52:31Senate called in Twitter Facebook and52:33Google to Washington and asked them to52:37devise strategies for preventing the52:39sowing of discord you know so they52:41basically what’s asking them to come up52:44with strategies for filtering out fake52:47news and then also certain kinds of52:49offensive content but you know that is a52:53stepping stone to what we’ve we’ve seen52:55in other countries I think you know and52:57I think it’s really worrisome but but52:59nobody seems to care on our side of the53:01aisle which is which is very strange53:02myself it’s53:04miles well it’s a it’s a censorship53:06issue you know and it’s it’s a53:09short-sighted thing as you said before53:10it’s people and it’s not even there’s53:14people that do pretty egregious things53:16from the left like the Covington school53:18thing when people were saying we got to53:21Doc’s these kids and give me their names53:23release their names these people are53:25still on Twitter to this day right53:27talking about kids that just happen to53:28have these make America great again hats53:30and I have a friend who used to live in53:32that area said like no you don’t get it53:33like there’s these stands these kids are53:36on the high school like field trip53:38there’s these stands we could buy these53:39hats everywhere these kids bought the53:41hats they’re they think they’re being53:43funny these guys play the music and then53:45get in their face you take a photo of it53:47it looks like this guy’s standing in53:49this Native American guy’s face but then53:51you see the whole video it’s no no the53:53Native American guy was playing his drum53:54walking towards him and then everybody53:58sorts probably it’s outrage cycle it’s54:03just so exhausting in a signaling54:05everyone’s signaling how virtuous they54:07are everyone’s signaling they’re on the54:09right side everyone’s signaling you know54:11I want names take these guys down like54:14you’re talking about sixteen year old54:15kids right it’s so fucking crazy and all54:18what is he Vic he’s guilty of smiling54:20was that what he guilt he’s guilty of54:22yeah no he’s got a mag a hat on I mean54:24yeah it’s crazy and the signaling thing54:27is crazy and you know for me the in the54:30in the news business a lot of people54:32that I know went into the when at the54:35journalism precisely because we didn’t54:37want to talk about our political views54:39like the whole point of the job is like54:41you know we’re just gonna tell you what54:43the facts are like not gonna tell you54:44about what I’m all about you can’t do54:46that anymore everything’s editorialize54:48everything is about editorializing and54:51signaling this is like what you’re54:52saying you’re telling people what your54:55stance is on things and that’s that’s54:58the opposite of what the job used to be54:59and this is again one of the things I’ve55:01been trying to focus on is that you know55:04what’s exactly what you’re talking about55:05people used to go to the news because55:07they wanted to find out what happened in55:08the world and they can’t do it anymore55:10because everything that you turn on55:11every kind of content is just55:14editorialized content where people are55:16sort of telling you55:17where they stand on things and you know55:19I don’t want to know that I wouldn’t55:20know what the information yes it’s so55:22hard how does this get resolved because55:24we’re dealing with essentially a two55:26decade old problem right I mean give or55:28take before that before the this the55:32social media and before the internet and55:34websites this justice wasn’t this wasn’t55:37what it was you could count on the New55:38York Times to give you an unbiased55:41version of what’s going on in the world55:43I don’t necessarily know that’s true55:45anymore no no other times has kind of55:47gone over to this model as well and55:49they’re super woke they’ve they’ve55:50struggled with it they they were that55:52there was an editorial and I wrote about55:54this in the in the book that the in the55:56summer of 2016 this guy Jim Ruttenberg55:59wrote the sort of this piece said Trump56:00is testing the norms of objectivity that56:02was the name of the piece and basically56:05what he said is Trump is so bad that we56:06have to look like rethink what56:08objectivity means we have to not only be56:11true but true to history’s judgment he56:14said and we have to have copious56:16coverage and a gret quote and aggressive56:18coverage so we’re gonna cover Trump a56:19lot we’re gonna cover him aggressively56:21and we’re gonna show you we’re gonna56:23take a stand on this issue rather than56:26just tell you what happened right so56:28rather than doing the traditional New56:29York Times thing of just the facts will56:32tell you sorted out right you figure out56:34we’re gonna tell you you know kind of56:36had it what your stance should be and56:39you know I think where does where do we56:41go from here how does it get resolved I56:43don’t know because you know unless the56:46the financial incentives change there56:49they’re not going to change you know the56:51business used to be back when you’re56:54talking about with New York Times and56:55then there were three networks and they56:57were all trying to get the whole56:58audience right so they were they were57:00they were doing that kind of neutral57:02fact-finding mission and it was working57:04for them financially now they can’t do57:06that because of the internet it’s it’s57:07you’re hunting for audience and little57:09groups yeah and they’re just giving you57:11hyper politicized stuff because that’s57:12the only way they can make money I don’t57:14know how we change it I don’t know how57:15we go you know we reverse it it’s it’s57:18it’s a problem it’s so interesting57:20though because I mean if you looked at57:24human interactions and if you looked at57:27you know dispensing news and information57:30and you follow trends from like the 30s57:33to the 40s to the 50s to the 60s to 70s57:37he’d be like oh well people are getting57:38better at this57:39people getting better whoa whoa what the57:42fuck is going on now everything is off57:45the rails yes two camps barking at each57:47other’s blatant misinformation on both57:50sides blatant distortions of the truth57:52blatant editorializing of facts and57:55you’re like hey what happened guys yeah57:57no it’s it’s it’s crazy and and not not58:00that the news didn’t have distortions58:03before like you think about you know we58:07covered up all sorts of thing you know58:09massacres in Cambodia a secret bombing58:11you know the use of Agent Orange like58:14it’s definitely I just didn’t appear in58:15the news in the degree it should now58:18though you turn on either MSNBC or Fox58:22and you’re right you’ll you’ll find58:25something that’s just totally full of58:26shit within five minutes usually and58:28that did not used to be the case you58:32know I think individual reporters used58:35to take a lot of pride in their work58:36you know and it’s different now now now58:39when you make mistakes in the business58:41you don’t you don’t get bounced out of58:43the business in the way you used to and58:45that’s that’s really strange like only58:47plagiarism plagiarism still bounces you58:50what plagiarism case is pretty yeah58:52that’s usually fatal right you’re not58:54gonna usually recover from that I mean58:55some people have kind of near in58:57problems with that and they they you59:00know I’m not gonna yes but but um but no59:04but you think about people who got59:05stories like w the WMD thing wrong right59:08not only do they not get bounced out of59:10the business they all got promoted you59:12know they’re like the editors of major59:13magazines now or you know and and so59:16what does that tell people in the59:18business well it tells you you know if59:20you screw up as long as you screw up59:21with a whole bunch of other people it’s59:22okay you know which is not good and and59:25we used to have a lot of pride about59:26that stuff in this business and that we59:28now we don’t anymore59:29you know and it it’s there isn’t the59:33shame connected with with screwing59:34something up that there used to be I59:36think there’s a real danger with in59:38terms of social media especially in not59:42complying to the Constitution59:44not complying to the First Amendment I59:46think there’s a real danger in that and59:47I don’t think we recognize that danger59:49because I don’t think we saw what social59:51media was until it was too late and then59:53by the time it was too late we had59:55already had these sort of standards in59:58place and the people that run it we’re60:01already getting away with enforcing60:03their own personal bias their60:04ideological bias and this is this is60:08that when you’re at this position where60:10you go well how does that ever get60:11resolved they’re not going to resolve it60:13on their own they’re still making ass60:14loads of money what he did is the60:16government resolved it well if Trump60:18steps in and resolves it looks like he’s60:19trying to resolve it to save his own60:21political career or right to into you60:23know to help his supporters it’s like60:26yeah no and and and no matter what if60:29Trump does anything about it60:30automatically everyone’s gonna be60:32against it right right you know even60:33even if it’s um even if there’s some60:36sense in there somewhere people won’t60:37won’t won’t get behind it but you know I60:40do anything about it it’s gonna be a60:41correction time there’s gonna be a gap60:44time where it’s gonna be like that where60:46it’s just gonna flood with people that60:48are just like with this newfound freedom60:51they’re just gonna go and shit up the60:53town you know but I mean but how would60:55you how would you fix it now like that’s60:58something because it’s not only about60:59rules it’s also about culture like61:01people have already they’re in this61:02pattern of you know not saying the wrong61:06thing right and they don’t61:08I think there’s we’re in a culture that61:10doesn’t even really know how to deal61:13with free speech if we actually had it61:15in the same way we used to you know no61:16one seems to have a forecast like no61:19one’s like well the storm is gonna last61:20about four years and then say there’s no61:22there’s no forecast no no one’s like wow61:25some fucking uncharted waters right61:28right but if you historically the61:31tendency is once you have a tool that61:34kind of can be used to keep people on61:38line and for enforce compliance of ideas61:41and then it always ends up worsening and61:44becoming more and more dictatorial and61:46authoritarian yes again you go back to61:48the Soviet example like once I started61:50you know really exercising a lot of61:52control over the press and literature61:54and things like that it didn’t get61:56better you61:57it just continued becoming more of a you62:00know an entrenched thing until so I62:02that’s what I worry about I think they62:04were headed more in that direction yeah62:06I think so too62:07I’m not really concerned with on both62:10sides when people dig their heels in62:12ideologically the other side just gets62:14even more convinced they’re correct oh62:15yeah yeah and there’s no cross dialogue62:20of any kind not anymore62:23there and even now I mean it’s it’s62:26interesting you had you had Bernie62:29Sanders on your show and Sanders all62:31it’s Sanders is one of the few62:33politicians left who has this idea that62:36we should talk to everybody like there’s62:38there are no illegitimate audiences out62:39there there know and like you know62:41that’s my job as a politician is to try62:43to convince you of things but that’s not62:45normal in the Democratic Party anymore I62:47mean Elizabeth Warren you know has made62:51a big thing about not going on Fox and62:53about having certain people taken taken62:55off Twitter and yeah and and I think62:58that’s increasingly the the sort of line63:02of thought in mainstream Democratic63:04Party thought now is is that we’re just63:06gonna rule out whatever whatever that is63:0947% of the electorate we’re just not63:10gonna talk to them anymore63:11right right yeah I I don’t know how63:14that’s that can possibly be a successful63:16political strategy then what and what63:18the point is you know I yeah no no it63:21doesn’t make any sense I was reading63:24something where people are going after63:25tells he gathered for being on Tucker63:27Carlson she’s like I’ll talk to63:29everybody and I’m glad she does and by63:32the way it’s like it’s hard for her63:33because she’s kind of an outside63:34candidate it’s hard for her to get time63:36on these other networks and so they want63:39to punish her for being on Tucker63:40Carlson’s and then they have this you63:42know reductionist view of who he is he’s63:46a white supremacist like to all she63:48supports white supremacists she goes on63:49a white supremacist show it okay is that63:51what he is really what he is and using63:54its knee a lot more than that there’s a63:56lot going on there right you guys are63:58fucking with life you know you’re64:00fucking with the reality of life and64:03you’re saying it in these sentences64:05you’re printing it out in these64:06paragraphs as64:08and you sending it out there64:09irresponsibly and it’s just really64:11strange that people don’t understand the64:13repercussions of that yeah that’s64:15something we talked about on our podcast64:16easily it’s all the time is that the64:18this it’s a catch-22 right like you you64:22don’t invite somebody like tulsi gabbard64:24on to CNN MSNBC where you they’re kind64:28of excluded from the same platform the64:29other politicians get so they go to64:31other platforms64:32all right and then you say oh you went64:34on that platform so you’re illegitimate64:35yes you know what do you want them to do64:37like you know what they do the same64:39thing with people who go on RT for64:40instance right oh well you’re helping64:42the Russians because you went on RT well64:44they’re that’s because you didn’t invite64:46them on any I mean yeah you their people64:48are gonna try to talk to anybody they64:49can to spread their ideas and that that64:52that kind of propaganda thing is is64:54pretty constant now in the use of the64:57term terms like what white supremacists64:59with Tucker Carlson I mean there there65:01are a million terms now that you use to65:03just kind of throw at people and what65:05they’re trying to do is create this ik65:06factor around people yeah right like65:09once you get someone gets a label65:11associated with them then nobody wants65:14to be associated with that person all65:16right Ryan they quickly kind of die out65:18of the public scene and that’s I think65:20that’s really bad too you know it’s it’s65:22like a it’s it’s just an65:25anti-intellectual way of dealing with65:26things and I and I think it’s it’s not65:29good it’s weird that it’s so prevalent65:31it’s weird that there’s so few65:32proponents of a more you know65:36open-minded way of thinking right yeah65:38and just to take the gap we had we had65:42Tulsa together on our show too and65:44immediately we got accused what do you65:46love Assad right do you want a bomb65:49Syrian sure you want to keep murder65:50Syrian children no I you know she’s a65:52presidential candidate and we want to65:54talk to want to hear what she has to say65:55but they immediately go to the65:58maximalist interpretation of everything66:00and then they’re what they’re basically66:02saying when they ask you those questions66:04are do you want to wear that label too66:06because she’s got it already66:08so if you have a run again you’re gonna66:10you’re you’re gonna have that label and66:11people they see that you know and and so66:14you know people who have who don’t have66:16a big following and who are worried66:19about their careers66:21in about you know the money and66:23advertisers and stuff like that they66:24they think twice about you know66:26interviewing that person the next time66:27yeah and here’s another way to get that66:29speech exactly and again I don’t know66:32how you get out of it you know and I66:36mean I’ve experienced some blowback I66:39guess but it doesn’t hasn’t worked yet66:42right you know I mean it’s not real it’s66:45just like it’s just words like okay well66:48but yeah and and but you’re handling it66:50the right way back I think people your66:53audience is rewarding you for for not66:56not bowing to it66:58you know and I think that more people if67:01they took that example and said I’m not67:02gonna listen to what the the pack says67:05about this I’m not gonna be afraid of67:06being called a name you know fuck that67:09I’m gonna talk to you I want to talk to67:11and I’m gonna gonna head you know67:13explore whatever ideas I want to explore67:15then the this kind of stuff wouldn’t be67:18as effective so yeah so easy to do to67:22people it’s so easy for them to deep67:23platform people yes always and shadow67:26banning and all this other weird shit67:27that’s going on yeah they’re channeling67:30people and and pushing people into these67:34areas of their platforms that makes them67:38less accessible and I know where it67:40comes from you know I was I was young67:42and politically active once you know you67:44you want to change the world you want to67:46make it a better place so you’re in67:48college and you don’t have any power you67:50don’t have any way to input make67:54something into legislation you know what67:56I mean yeah so what do you do you you67:59know social media gives you the illusion68:01that you’re having an impact in the68:03world by you know maybe getting somebody68:05deep platformed or taking off Twitter or68:07something like that it feels like it’s68:08political action that yeah but it’s not68:11you know what I mean it’s it’s it’s68:12something that they that is open to68:14people to do but it’s not the same as68:18you know getting 60 Congress 60 members68:21of the Senate to to raise taxes on a68:24corporation that’s been evading them for68:2620 years you know what I mean like68:27that’s that’s real action this you know68:31getting some random person taken off the68:33internet is just not change68:34you know but but people feel like it is68:36and they wanna they want to do the right68:38thing so I get it but no it’s it’s not68:41you know put real political action I68:43don’t think no it’s fucking gross yeah68:49and it just lead it’s there’s so much of68:52it on there’s so little logic also and68:56you this must be a personal thing for68:59you but it’s this is the unfunniest time69:01in American history69:03like yes no because you rewarded for for69:07stepping outside the box that’s true in69:09a big way mm-hmm like yeah you mean Dave69:12Chappelle gets attacked but guess what69:14he also gets rewarded in a huge way run69:17he goes on stage now people go ape shit69:20that’s true and part of the reason why69:22they go fucking bonkers is because they69:24know that this guy doesn’t give a fuck69:26and he’s one of the rare ones who69:28doesn’t give a fuck so when he goes up69:29there you know if he thinks something69:32crazy about whatever it is whatever69:34protected group or whatever idea that69:37he’s not supposed to explore that’s not69:39gonna stop him at all he’s gonna tell69:40you exactly what he thinks about those69:42things regardless of all this woke69:44blowback he’s not he doesn’t care right69:46so because of that he’s rewarded even69:48more and same thing with Bill burr69:50same thing with a lot of comics I69:51experienced it with my own jokes sure69:53did more controversial bits getting69:55people more fired up now they love it69:57because everyone’s smothered their70:00smothered by human resources and70:02smothered by office politics and you’re70:04smothered by social discourse70:07restrictions and he’s don’t feel like70:10you can express yourself any more this70:12is true and and and all people also70:13don’t have a they feel like they’re70:15being watched all the time yeah things70:17like that kind of can’t let it all hang70:19out anywhere right and and so that’s70:21yeah they they do feel incredibly like70:24repressed and under the gun yeah I think70:26that that’s that’s true yeah I just I70:29feel like it I mean I’m not a comic but70:31if but I just imagine it must be a more70:34challenging environment it’s more70:35challenging but more rewarding to my70:37friend ari said it best he said this is70:39a great time for comedy because comedies70:41dangerous again right that’s true yeah70:43that’s true yeah it’s kind of goes back70:44to like a Lenny Bruce era right70:46when you know you could kind of70:48completely freak people out with a70:50couple of saying a couple of sure yeah70:53for good or bad or prior yeah well you70:56like you saw it with like louis c.k70:58right louis ck’s under the microscope71:00now that joke that he made about71:02parkland is absolutely a louis c.k joke71:06if you followed him throughout his71:08career what was the joke again i’m sorry71:10the joke was why am i listening to these71:12parklands survivors why are you71:13interesting cuz you pushed some fat kid71:16in the way like see you’re laughing71:18right like that is a louis c.k joke he’s71:23saying something fucked up you’re not71:24supposed to say that is throughout his71:26goddamn career he’s done that that’s71:28always done but after the you know71:32jerking off in front of women all that71:33stuff and him coming out in admitting it71:35and then taking a bunch of time off now71:37he’s a target right now he does71:38something like that and they’re like oh71:40he’s all right now like no this is what71:42he’s always done right he’s always71:44taking this sort of contrarian outside71:47the box fucked up but hilarious take on71:51things and that bit71:52unfortunately because it was released by71:54someone who made a youtube video of it71:56he didn’t get a chance to he was gone71:58for ten months and he had only done a71:59couple sets when he was fleshing these72:01ideas out i guarantee you he would have72:03turned that idea into a brilliant bit72:04but he never got the chance because it72:06was just it was set out there in the72:08wild when it was a baby he was mauled72:10down by wolves it needed to be heard72:13right yeah i mean that’s what a bit of72:15these bits they they grow and they72:17develop and that was a controversial72:19idea that we’re supposed to think that72:21someone’s interesting just because they72:22survived a tragedy and his take is like72:24no no no no you’re not interesting right72:27you’re fucking boring you’re annoying72:28get off my get off my TV and a lot of us72:31have felt that way sure he just the way72:34he said it was easy to take and put in72:37you know out of context put it in quotes72:39and turn him into an asshole well yeah72:42but that’s what comedy is right it’s72:44it’s taking what people the the thoughts72:46that everybody has and vocalizing that72:49the end that forbidden thing in a way72:51that people can kind of you know come72:54together over right i mean i think that72:56was a lot a lot of what richard pryor72:57schemer was about like he took a lot of72:59the sort73:00comfortable race problems right and he73:05just kind of put them out there and both73:07white people and black people laughed at73:09it yeah right like together you know and73:11that that was what was good about it yes73:12but if you can’t if if people are afraid73:17to vocalize those things that they think73:18it’s gonna you know ruin their career is73:20you know that that makes it more73:22interesting right it’s more hype more73:24high stakes but if you can navigate73:25those waters and get to the promised73:28land of the punchline it’s even more73:29rewarding right but you just have to73:31explain yourself better you have to have73:33better points you have to have you have73:35to have a better structure to your73:38material where you while the the people73:41who may find your idea objectionable73:44they you you coax them like hold my hand73:48I’m gonna take you through the woods73:50we’re gonna be okay right follow me and73:53boom isn’t that funny73:55right right right you have to navigate73:56it skillfully and you have to navigate73:58it thoughtfully and you have to really74:01have a point you can’t have a half-assed74:03point but you can’t have a situation74:06where it’s fatal to be off by a little74:08bit I know like there was a writer that74:11I loved growing up a Soviet writer named74:13Isaac Babel Stalin ended up shooting him74:17but he gave a speech about I think it74:20was in 1936 you know to to a Soviet74:23writers collective and he said you know74:25people say that we don’t have as much74:27freedom as we used to but actually all74:29of all that the you know the the74:31Communist Party is done is Britta’s74:33prevented us from writing badly the only74:35thing that’s outlawed now is writing74:36badly right and everybody laughed but he74:39was actually saying something pretty74:41serious which is that you can’t write74:42well unless you can you know screw up74:44too you know like on the way to to being74:48creative in a good way you have to miss74:50yes you know and if missing is not74:52allowed and there’s high punishment for74:55missing you’re not going to get art yeah74:57you’re not gonna get revolution you’re74:59not gonna get all these things well and75:01in comedy it’s particularly important75:03because you have to work it out in front75:04of people absolutely yeah no I used to75:06sit at a comedy club in75:08hatton when I was like in college that75:11you know they would try out their75:13material like on a Wednesday right you75:16know early and that was always the most75:18interesting time for me well like75:19they’re trying south stuff out and a lot75:21of it wasn’t so good but you know it was75:23interesting right and you just can’t75:26have a situation where people feel like75:28you know one wrong word is gonna ruin75:30their career yeah you know yeah I don’t75:32know but there’s also people that are75:34wolves and they’re trying to take out75:36that little baby joke wandering through75:38the woods they they want that feeling of75:41being able to take someone down right75:44and that that’s you know that’s you’re75:45getting that now too which is just and75:47so now because that there’s like yonder75:49bags at the improv where I’m performing75:51tonight they usually on their bags you75:53have to put yourself on the bag when you75:54go in there so you can’t record things75:56yonder bag yes it’s a company called75:58yonder it’s just so strange it’s like76:01all the shows I did with Chappelle he76:03uses yonder bags and an idea is to76:06prevent people from from filming and76:08recording and you know and then76:10eventually putting your stuff out there76:11uh-huh76:12well you know look I’m kind of all for76:15that I mean I’ve seen this with76:17politicians on the campaign trail like76:19they are so tight now in ways that they76:21used to not be well you saw the Donald76:23Trump thing Donald Trump jr. where Trump76:26jr. what they didn’t want him to do they76:28wanted him to do a Q&A and he didn’t76:30want to do it so they booed him the76:32right wing people uh-huh bullying him76:34they’re yelling out Q&A Q&A because they76:37want to be able to talk oh I see it’ll76:39say something to him and these are76:40people that were like far-right76:42far-right people they just didn’t think76:45he was being right enough or he was76:46playing the game wrong or he wasn’t76:47wasn’t letting them complain to him76:49right right yeah yeah now that’s bad and76:52and and politicians are aware of that76:56now and they’re they’re constantly aware76:57that they’re on film everywhere and so77:00they’re you know a thousand percent less77:02interesting because yeah they’re there I77:04mean I remember covering campaign in77:072004 and I was I saw Dennis Kucinich77:10give a speech somewhere and he was going77:13from I think Maine to New Hampshire and77:16I said can I get a ride back to New77:17Hampshire he’s like yeah sure so you77:18know it takes me on the77:20and he like takes his shoes off he’s77:22like cracking jokes and everything and77:24like eating udon noodles or something77:26political candidates would not do that77:28now like they’d be afraid to be off the77:30record with you right you know right77:32right and and they’re afraid to be77:33around people and just behave like77:35people you know which is not good I77:38don’t think it’s the weirdest time ever77:41to be a politician because it’s it’s77:42basically you’ve got this one guy who77:45made it through being hugely flawed77:49mm-hmm and just going ah77:51the fucking locker room talk and it was77:53like well yeah it is locker room talk77:54yes and then it works and he gets77:56through and he wins and so you’ve got77:58him who seems like he’s so greasy like78:01nothing sticks to him and then you have78:04everyone else who’s terrified of any78:06slight misstep yeah totally and and you78:10can’t replicate the way Trump does this78:12you know Trump Trump is he was born this78:14way there’s like a thing going on in his78:16head like he is you know pathologically78:19driven to behave in a certain way and78:20he’s not gonna be cowed by the way you78:24know people are but socially because he78:26just doesn’t think that way78:27no no he’s and but that’s no one else is78:29gonna behave like that what do you think78:31about him and speed what do you think I78:34do all that78:34does he take speed you mean yeah so did78:37you ever see his speech after Super78:40Tuesday yeah that’s the one we was78:43slurry it was that wasn’t always ramped78:46up he was very I just say watch that78:50speech you know we’re not supposed to78:51draw conclusions about but you know what78:54what my big lament pharmaceutically with78:55somebody but I would say just watched on78:57Donald Trump’s performance after the78:59results of the Super Tuesday roll in in79:022016 let’s hear some of that firstly79:06chris Christie is hilarious she’s79:09talking about wages I’ve been poor and79:11everything’s poor and everything’s doing79:13badly but we’re gonna make it she’s been79:14there for so long I mean if she hasn’t79:17straighten it out by now she’s not gonna79:19straighten it out in the next four years79:21it’s just gonna become worse and worse79:22she wants to make America whole again79:24and I’m trying to find what is79:26yeah I mean it’s just I already go back79:30and look but yeah but he got he went on79:32and on also that the Christie factor was79:34really funny with that because he was79:35him he’s just sitting back there going79:37what am i doing what am i doing with my79:39life79:40look at his face literally you can see79:42his brain wander well how the fuck did79:44this happened I was gonna be the man79:46like I was the goddamn president it was79:50gonna happen for me I could see it79:52happening I saw him in uh in Ames Iowa79:56basically standing alone in the park79:58waiting for people to try to shake his80:00hand you know yeah it was pretty bad80:01like you see that and but you do you80:03have a theory about Trump and speed yeah80:05yeah yeah I think he’s on some stuff80:07mm-hmm I think first of all I know so80:09many journalists that are on speed I80:12know so many people that are on adderall80:13and it’s very effective it gives you80:16confidence it gives you a delusional80:18perspective80:19well you get a delusional state of80:21confidence mm-hmm it makes people think80:22they can do anything it’s basically a80:24low-level meth it’s very similar to80:27methamphetamine chemically sure and80:29people are in it yeah it is tell me what80:31it’s like because I haven’t done it yeah80:33I mean I’ve done speed to I mean you80:35know all those all those drugs are yeah80:37they’re like baby baby speed basically80:39yeah and you’re absolutely right I think80:42people who it’s not good for a writer80:44because writing is one of these things80:47where one of the most important things80:49is being able to step back and and ask80:52am I really my full of shit here is you80:54know are my jokes as funny as I think80:55they are like right if once that80:57mechanism starts to go wrong you know81:01you’re really lost yes81:02writer right because you’re just you’re81:03not in front of an audience you’re with81:05yourself in front of a computer so I81:08don’t think I don’t think speed is a81:10great drug I mean you get a lot of stuff81:12done so that’s that’s good but but ya81:16know I I think there’s a lot of people81:18who are on it now and also a lot of us81:20because kids come up through school and81:23they’re on it just you know and they81:25they get used to it so I you know I have81:27kids I wouldn’t dream of giving giving81:29them any of those drugs you know I think81:31it’s crazy yeah I do – did you see you81:33saw the I’m sure you saw the sudafed81:34picture – right no what was that Trump81:37was sitting in his office eating a81:39was that famous photo where he’s like I81:41love Hispanics where he’s eating a taco81:43bowl at Trump Tower and behind him81:46there’s an open drawer and in that open81:47drawer as boxes of sudafed and sudafed81:51sort of yeah I mean you it gives you a81:54low-level buzz and the I mean this is81:59why I used to have to go to CVS to buy82:02this stuff used to have to give you82:03drivers I guess you still do they have82:05to give your driver’s license because82:06they want to make sure you’re not82:07cooking meth right lying like 10 boxes82:09of it at a time and cooking up a batch82:11yeah if you’re like in a you know holler82:13in Kentucky and you go in and get 20 2082:16boxes of sudafed and pretty much people82:18know what you’re doing there82:19yeah that’s really funny did he so he82:21had a bunch of sudafed oh yes yeah in82:23his box and you know there was that one82:26reporter that was that guy’s name again82:29who had a hole he wrote a series of82:33tweets which he eventually wound up82:34taking down by the way Jamie I can’t82:35find those fucking tweets he wrote a82:39series of tweets that there was a very82:40specific Duane Reade pharmacy where82:42Trump got amphetamines for something82:46that was in quotes called metabolic82:48disorder Kurt I can Walled fun Kurt yeah82:511982 Trump started taking amphetamine82:53derivatives abused them only supposed to82:55take two for 25 days stayed on it for82:57eight years really now is he full of82:59shit83:00so yeah Kurt I can Walt isn’t83:03interesting because he’s written some83:05really good books about finance he wrote83:09a book about Enron he wrote a book about83:12Prudential it was really really good83:15then when I was starting out writing83:17with Wall Street I was like wow these83:18books are really incredibly well83:19researched but he had some stuff in the83:23in 2016 where like that’s an example of83:28something as a reporter I see that83:30Michael where’s that coming from83:31you know and because you in journalism83:35you can’t really accuse somebody of83:37certain things unless it’s backed up to83:39the enth degree so right he had a couple83:41of things that I thought I you know83:42would be concerned about83:43he took a leap I don’t know I mean look83:46that’s what I’m Sam stepped outside of83:47the journalistic boundaries of what you83:50can absolutely prove and not prove83:53and took a leap and that’s why I think83:54he took down the duane reade pharmacy he83:56didn’t take it down oh it’s still there83:58as well there wasn’t okay there it is84:00there was another thing about a well84:03he’s got the milligrams per day Wow84:05where’s this from I don’t know it84:08doesn’t show it or anything but I84:10believe he eats drug use a copy of it84:11from someone or talk to the doctor drug84:14was diethyl propane 75 milligrams a day84:16prescription filled Duane Reade on 57th84:19Street Manhattan not that I know things84:20so you know get the doctor’s name to dr.84:24Joseph greenberg I countered with84:27medical records a white house admitted84:30to me only a short time for diet that he84:32took it when he was not located and84:34that’s fun he says I countered with84:36medical records they cut me off Wow yeah84:40I mean you know one thing I will say is84:42that when you’re when you’re covering84:43stories sometimes you hear things and84:46and you know they’re pretty solid but84:48you put you it’s not quite reportable84:50because the person won’t put their name84:51on it84:52or you know you’re not a hundred percent84:55sure that the document is a real84:56document maybe it’s a photocopy and that84:59that can be very very tough for85:00reporters cuz they know something’s true85:02but they can’t write they can’t and and85:05social media has eliminated a barrier85:07that we used to have we used to have to85:09go through editors and fact checkers and85:11now you know you’re on Twitter or you85:13can just kind of you know right right or85:15you can hint at something you know and I85:18think that’s that’s something you don’t85:19want to get into as a reporter too much85:21you know yeah that’s a weird use of85:23social media right it’s like sort of a85:25slippery escape from journalistic rules85:29yeah exactly yeah you know or you can85:32you can insinuate that somebody did X Y85:35& Z or you can you can use terms that85:38are a little bit sloppy like you know85:41again but it seems like they did admit85:42that he took that stuff forth ah yes so85:44if you have the the white house85:46you know spokesperson saying that they85:47he took it for a short time for a diet85:49then you find that’s a reportable story85:50right yeah yeah well I think when people85:53get into that shit it’s very hard for85:55them to get out of that shit mm-hmm85:57that’s a the the speed train and I’ve85:59seen many people hop on it it’s got a86:01lot of stops nobody seems to get off86:04yeah not with86:06keep intact right yeah no it’s uh that’s86:08that’s not a good old he’s so old he86:12doesn’t exercise he eats fast food and86:14he gets so much fucking energy I and I86:16mean people want to think he’s this86:17super person you know but maybe he’s on86:20speed maybe yeah I mean he’s just gonna86:23collapse turn over and collapse one not86:25can go a lot longer on speed than people86:28think maybe if you just do it the right86:30way but isn’t that kind of the way86:31history always works it’s like again not86:34to go back to the Russian thing but all86:36the various terrible leaders of Russia86:38like they all died of natural causes86:40when they were 85 right whereas you know86:42in a country where people get murdered86:43and die of industrial accidents and bad86:45health when they’re you know 30 all the86:47time right but the worst people in the86:49country make it to very old age and you86:52know and die and in their alcoholics and86:55maybe that’s the thing right maybe maybe86:56you know he has the worst diet in the87:00world and maybe he’s on speed and maybe87:02it’s also your perception of how you87:05interface with the world maybe because87:07he’s not this introspective guy that’s87:09really worried about how people see him87:10and feel about him maybe he doesn’t feel87:12you know whatever whether it’s87:14sociopathy or whatever it is he doesn’t87:16feel the bad feelings they don’t get in87:19there yeah and this he doesn’t have the87:21the stress impact right right and that’s87:23the thing about speed apparently it87:25because of the fact that it makes you87:27feel delusional and it makes you feel87:29like you’re the fucking man like don’t87:31worry about what other people think in87:32losers who cares right right yeah you87:37know that was why not by greenly why not87:39by greenland yeah that came out of87:41what’s wrong with that we bought Alaska87:43well we based it Alaska yeah yeah we87:45were supposed to give it back but we we87:47didn’t it seems like Greenland would be87:48a good place to scoop up especially as87:50things get warmer right yeah exactly and87:52the fuckin tweet that he made when he87:54put the Trump Tower I promise not to do87:56this and have a giant Trump Tower in the87:58middle of Greenland I was laughing my88:00ass off like love or hate that is88:03hilarious his trolling skills are88:05top-notch very good they’re they’re88:07fantastic oh he knows how to fuck with88:09people when he starts calling people88:10crazy or gives him a nickname like it’s88:12so good because like it sticks yes I88:17mean part of me wants88:19see a trump button race next year just88:22for that reason this is because the the88:25abuse will be on below I mean nothing88:27I’m encouraging that necessarily but88:29this is a spectacle it’s gonna be88:31unbelievable you can tell that he he is88:33salivating at the idea of by muscleman88:35Biden to me is like having a flashlight88:39with a dying battery and going for a88:41long hike in the woods is not going to88:45work out it’s not gonna make it88:48yeah no he’s he’s so faded he you know88:52he has his moments on the campaign trail88:55where he’ll be speaking and you know88:57these guys do the same speech over and88:59over again so they can kind of do it on89:01cruise control but every now and then89:03he’ll he’ll stop in the middle of it and89:05you this look of terror comes over like89:07where am i yeah you know what town am I89:10in you know like he he confused he89:13thought he was in Vermont when he was in89:15New Hampshire I’m sorry89:16yeah he was he got those states confused89:19like what’s not to love about Vermont he89:21was in New Hampshire you know that that89:24can happen obviously but it happens to89:26him a lot but he’s clearly old yeah you89:30know I mean he’s not much older than89:31Trump right but he needs to get on the89:34same pills yeah yeah actually that would89:36be a thing we should get a GoFundMe to89:38buy it imagine yeah they just filled him89:40up with steroids and and just jacked him89:43up with them feta means had it going89:45after Trump I really think he needs89:49something like that he whatever he’s89:50doing on the natch it’s not working89:52right yeah yeah he’s too tired needs a89:54little bit of enhancement it’s not gonna89:56work if he if he gets the nomination the89:58Democrats are fucked I just I don’t see90:00I don’t see him I don’t see him90:03withstanding the barrage that Trump was90:05gonna throw at him Trump’s gonna take90:07him out like Tyson took out Marvis90:09Fraser just got was a yeah it was a bomb90:12that was a bad fight it’s gonna be that90:13kind of fight right bomb on him yeah90:16doesn’t have a chance90:17he can’t stand with that guy he doesn’t90:19have a cheese to he’s also too impressed90:22with himself90:23yes he’s too used to people deferring90:26yes like he thinks like the things he90:28says makes sense and are cool and are90:31profound when they’re just90:33land right he’s just serving bad90:35meatloaf and he’s like tada and you’re90:38like no this is bad meatloaf yeah that’s90:40how he got to be vice president by being90:42just bland enough yes right to get90:46whatever constituency Obama was trying90:48to get but you saw that exchange when he90:50called Trump an existential threat90:51earlier this year and Trump basically he90:55just went off on him you know Joe Joe’s90:57a dummy he’s not the guy he used to be90:59like you know yeah that’s gonna be91:01everyday yep you know every minute of91:04every day and then other people gonna91:05chime in because they love it people91:07love piling on91:08oh yeah and his fans oh my god he’s the91:11asshole king where people never had a91:13representative before there’s a lot of91:15assholes out there like that where’s my91:16guy Brian finally BAM look at this area91:19the asshole made it to the White House91:22holy shit I can be an asshole now the91:24president’s an asshole he wants me to be91:26an asshole91:29oh yeah totally91:32oh that’s mean that that’s gonna wear on91:34a guy I mean if you’ve been doing one of91:36trumps rallies no chance yeah now I91:38can’t wear a rubber nose and fucking91:40I’ve covered it and what they’re like91:42they’re unbelievable first of all the91:44the the t-shirts are amazing you know it91:48like Trump 2020 fuck your feelings you91:51know what I mean like Trump is the91:53Punisher you know it’s like the Punisher91:55skull with the thing like it’s it’s it’s91:58it’s amazing and in the crowds it’s like92:01totally out of idiocracy yeah is there a92:03fucking Punisher skull with a Trump wig92:06on it yeah yeah oh my goodness I’m gonna92:08have to get one of those I mean he’s92:09like there’s oh it’s a red white and92:25blue American flag skull Punishers style92:28with a Trump Trump wig on it so I saw92:30that I need that sure son it wasn’t the92:33one red white and blue one it was the92:34blood it was a moment to black and I saw92:37that on my god I’m like an92:39eight-year-old kid92:41all right it was like a mother with her92:43little kids and the Trenton Trump92:45Punisher skull but do they92:46that shirt on Amazon can finally show92:48I’m sure being sold everywhere I mean92:58the the the merch is he is he’s the most93:01t-shirt able president history I mean93:03Trump 2020 grabbed him by the pussy93:06again boy I mean that they they like93:10embrace that shit it the the trolling93:13aspect of all of it is like the fun part93:17for his crowd so you are what they get93:19off on is how how freaked out you know93:23quote-unquote liberal audiences yeah by93:25their appearance their attitude and93:26everything and they lean into it you93:28know that I mean which is interesting93:31because you know that kind of like group93:34camaraderie thing that you don’t really93:36find that on and then a campaign trail93:38on the Democratic side it’s different I93:39mean it’s a different vibe entirely but93:41yeah it’s crazy93:42well it’s dumb and that’s the thing that93:44he’s sort of like captured is this place93:47where you can be dumb like it’s fun to93:50be dumb and say grab her by the pussy93:52like everybody knows that’s kind of a93:53dumb thing to say public of course but93:55you can say it there because he said it93:57yay you know build that wall build that94:00wall yeah right like it’s like it’s this94:02chance to like shut off any possibility94:06of getting over like 70 rpm like you94:09we’re gonna cut this bitch off at 7094:11there’s no high function here cut it off94:13at 70 and just let it rip right yeah no94:16totally totally and and it’s funny the94:21way you say that they’ll never buddy94:23knows it’s a dumb thing to say right94:24like I would talk to people at the94:26crowds and you know I’ll talk like a 6594:29year old grandmother and you say do you94:32agree with everything in Trump says and94:34like almost the last they all say well I94:36wish he hadn’t said this particular94:37thing right but they’re all they’re94:39chanting you know what I mean like94:41they’re all into it and all in the94:43crowds are they’re so huge like I was in94:45Cincinnati and I was late to one of his94:48events and I made the mistake that I94:49couldn’t Drive in because they blocked94:51off all the bridges if you’ve never been94:53there right you know I was in the94:54Kentucky side so I had to walk like94:56three miles away and like walk over a94:58bridge and I thought I was going95:00the only person there and it was like95:02something out of a sci-fi movie was just95:03like a line of Magha hats like extending95:06over a bridge all the way into Kentucky95:08like a mile down a road I mean they had95:10eternally thousands of people to get95:12into this event it was it’s incredible95:14and that people did see it was like 1795:16or 18 thousand it was the you know they95:20freaked out what they what arena that is95:22it’s the it’s the indoor one he’s the95:25only one that can pull those kind of95:27crowds here oh yeah95:28there’s no one no one can do that you95:31know Bernie and Warren have had big95:34crowds Bernie had a he had a 25,000 that95:37person crowd in Queens a couple of weeks95:39ago you’ll see crowds that big but95:42Trump’s crowds are just dating back to95:442016 they’re just consistently huge95:47every everywhere and and again this gets95:51back to what I was saying before all the95:53reporters saw this and they all saw that95:55Hillary was having real trouble getting95:57four and five thousand people into her95:59events and so we all you know we were96:01all talking to each other like that’s96:02gotta be in it a thing that’s gonna you96:04know play a role in the election96:06eventually but nobody kind of brought it96:08up or they they explained it away well I96:10think they felt like if you discussed it96:12and brought it up that somehow or96:14another you got you were contributing to96:15Trump being Trump winning right but96:20that’s a that’s a fallacious way to look96:22at it yeah because96:24covering up the reality of the situation96:26I think created a false sense of96:27security for Democrats and they thought96:30they were gonna win by a landslide yeah96:31that’s what everybody was saying but it96:33wasn’t true I mean the overseer there96:34were serious red flags throughout the96:37campaign for Hillary and people I think96:39were too afraid to to bring up a lot of96:41this stuff because they didn’t want to96:43be seen it’s helping Trump but that’s96:44not what the business is about we’re not96:46supposed to be you know helping back96:48both factors don’t have you know96:50political indications we’re just96:52supposed to tell you what we see how do96:53you get journalism back on track is it96:55possible at this point I mean it is a96:57lost art is it gonna be like calligraphy96:59I mean I think yeah yeah exactly97:04Japanese calligraphy you have to pass it97:06down through masters yeah maybe that’s97:09that’s gonna be able to adjourn97:10Elizabeth like I mean97:11there’s two things that could happen one97:13is that like if you created something97:16like neither side news right now right97:18and just like a that’s a great name97:20yeah like a network where it was a bunch97:22of people who just kind of did the job97:24without the editorializing I think it97:27would have it would probably have a lot97:29of followers right away it would make97:31money and nobody has clued into that yet97:33like if if some canny entrepreneur were97:35to do that and that were to bring back97:37the business that or you know journalism97:39has always been kind of quasi subsidized97:41in this country you know going back to97:43the Pony Express newspapers were carried97:45free across to the west right the US97:47Postal Service said that the original97:4919th the Communications Act in 1934 the97:53idea was you know we you could lease the97:55public airwaves but you had to do97:56something in the public interest so you97:59you could make money doing sports and98:01entertainment but you could take a loss98:03on news and so it was kind of quasi98:06subsidized in that way but that doesn’t98:08exist anymore there’s no subsidy really98:09for news anymore I’m not a story sure I98:11agree with that98:12that being the way to go but there has98:15to be something because right now the98:16financial pressure to be bad is just too98:19it’s too great you know like there’s no98:21if there’s no way to I started going on98:24this but I came when I came from the98:25business when the money started getting98:28tighter the first thing they got rid of98:30were the long-form investigative98:31reporters like you couldn’t just hire98:34somebody to work on a story for three98:35months anymore because he needed them to98:37do content all the time then they got98:39rid of the fact checkers you know which98:41had another serious problem you know and98:43and so now the money’s so tight that he98:46just had these people doing clickbait98:48all the time and they’re not doing real98:50reporting and so they they have to fix98:52the money problem I don’t know how they98:53would do that how much has it changed98:54recently because like when that piece of98:57the stuff that you wrote about the98:59banking crisis was my favorite coverage99:01of it and the the most relatable and99:03understandable and the way you spelled99:05everything out could you do that today99:08yeah but I think it would be harder99:11because that’s not that long it’s it99:13really isn’t it’s only you know that was99:15I really stopped doing that and like99:172014 or so five years out but the the99:22big differences social media has had a99:24huge impact on a ten99:25and span so you know I was writing like99:287,000 word articles about credit default99:32swaps and stuff like that I was trying99:33really hard to make it interesting for99:35people you know you use jokes and yeah99:37humor and stuff like that but now people99:39would not have the energy to really99:42fight through that you’d have to make it99:43shorter99:45even TV you know they people you don’t99:48see that kind of reporting that in-depth99:50you know kind of process reporting where99:53you’re teaching people something because99:56people just tune out right away that99:57they need just a quick hit a headline100:00and a couple of facts so yeah there’s a100:03big problem with audience right which100:05we’ve trained audiences to consume the100:07news differently and all they really100:09want to get is a take now you know it’s100:11like the everything’s like an ESPN hot100:13take writings you know so that’s easy100:16the counter to that though is this what100:19we’re doing right now like these are100:21always these long-ass conversations100:23they’re hours and hours long and there’s100:25a bunch of them out there now it’s not100:27like mine is an isolated one and there’s100:29so many podcast that cover and some of100:31them cover them like in a cereal form100:33like the drop out was that there was a100:36they called it yes it was the drop out100:39was the one about that woman who created100:41that fake blood company yes right you100:44know Susan was her name Elizabeth that’s100:55right Sarah knows yeah the the100:57completely fraudulent company that was100:59an amazing podcast absolutely that if I101:03read it I probably you’re right I101:04probably would have liked boring right I101:07probably Bandhan it earlier but101:08listening to it in podcast form101:10listening to actual conversations from101:13these people listening to people’s101:15interpretations of these confrontations101:16listening to people that were there at101:18the time telling you know telling101:21stories about when they knew things were101:22weird and when they started noticing the101:25there’s like tests that were incorrect101:29that they were covering up that kind of101:30shit like you can do that now with101:33something like this and I think that one101:34of the good things about podcasts too is101:37you don’t need anybody101:39to tell you that you could you could101:41publish this yeah no absolutely I think101:44you’re you’re right and I think formats101:48like this reveal that the news companies101:51are wrong about about some things about101:54audiences like they they think that101:56people can’t handle an in-depth101:57discussion about things they think that101:59audiences only want to watch 30 seconds102:01of something they don’t they’re102:02interested that they do have curiosity102:05about things it’s just it’s very102:08difficult to convince people in the news102:10business especially to take chances on102:13that kind of content you know they’ll do102:15it for a podcast I’ll do it for a102:17documentary but but for for the news102:21they just they’re making things shorter102:23and shorter and shorter you know I was102:24really lucky to have an editor who you102:26know understood the idea that we have to102:29get into this and in depth or also it’s102:31going to be meaningless the program102:32right that’s pretty rare you know for102:35the most part they you don’t see them102:38taking that kind of bet anymore but102:40maybe podcasts will help people Punk102:41puncture that but the flip side of that102:43is that they’re not they’re not102:45investing and stuff like like102:48International News in the way they used102:49to when I came up in the business every102:52Bureau every big Network had bureaus in102:56every major city around the world you102:58know Rome Berlin Moscow whatever it is103:00right and they had newsrooms full of103:01people who are you know out there103:03gathering news now there’s none of that103:05right because they figured out they can103:07make the money just as easily by having103:09somebody sit in an office and in103:11Washington or New York and just you know103:14link to something and have a take on103:16something you know so the I think the103:19news is getting worse podcasts are103:21getting more interesting maybe maybe103:23there’s a happy medium they can find in103:24between well documentaries as well