openpolitics.com

Transcript

00:00

hmm so Jamie pointed out this this

00:07

congressman is that who it is the Jamie

00:11

pointed this out that there’s a

00:12

congressman and he released a series of

00:14

tweets and the first letter of all these

00:17

tweets if you put them all together it

00:18

says Epstein didn’t kill himself or did

00:20

not kill so notice it didn’t he did how

00:25

do you do the posture

00:26

should have gone with did not darting

00:28

here with that evidence of a link

00:30

wrapped Paul gaw sir what are the odds

00:33

this guy did this accidentally really

00:35

small right that’s kind of like one of

00:37

those monkeys typing Shakespeare say

00:39

yeah yeah I don’t think I could it could

00:41

work and the thing is he did it

00:43

backwards right so you didn’t see what

00:46

the puzzle was until the last tweet

00:48

because the last time he does in E I got

00:50

a tweet from someone about 35 minutes

00:52

ago that I don’t know if there’s a bunch

00:54

of people online paying attention to it

00:55

or what but someone alerted me and a few

00:57

other people what it is yeah does he

00:59

have an image of that fucking that crazy

01:01

mask is that in his shit too

01:03

okay he’s a agent he’s got the I was

01:07

November first V mask yes yeah what is

01:10

that mask for Vendetta was a

01:12

representative of something

01:14

it’s the Guy Fawkes mask yes that’s

01:16

right right yeah so this guy’s uh he’s

01:19

he’s thinking along alternative lines of

01:21

thought but that is really an

01:22

interesting way of saying it alphabet

01:25

tree that’s yeah just making a bunch of

01:27

tweets don’t ever address it just leave

01:29

it there walk away you know Lewis

01:31

Carroll was famous for that was he yeah

01:33

that was one of uh he did a lot of sort

01:35

of tricks with words you read the book

01:38

gödel Escher Bach No

01:39

yeah there’s a whole bunch of stuff in

01:41

there about people who used who put

01:45

puzzles in text mmm you know that’s kind

01:47

of a thing that people did I guess back

01:49

more in the 18th century in before well

01:51

this Epstein case is probably the most

01:54

blatant example of a public murder of a

01:59

crucial witness I’ve ever seen in my

02:00

entire life or anybody’s ever seen and

02:02

the the the minimal amount of outrage

02:05

about this the no minimal amount of

02:07

cover it’s fuckin fascinating I mean I

02:09

what’s amazing to me just as a you know

02:12

somebody works in the media

02:13

is that this was shaping up to be the

02:15

biggest like news story in history yes

02:18

and the instant he you know he died or

02:23

was died or however you want to call it

02:25

it this story just fell off the face of

02:27

the earth it’s like nobody’s doing

02:30

anything about it and I I don’t

02:32

100% understand that I mean I get it why

02:35

that’s happening but it’s it’s just

02:37

amazing

02:38

well when the woman from ABC what was

02:41

her name Amy that lady the the one who

02:46

wrote Roebuck you who had the frustrated

02:49

moment that she called it a frustrating

02:51

private moment right what she was

02:53

talking about having the scoop and

02:55

having that story and them squashing it

02:58

right like this this is all stuff that

03:01

everybody used to think was conspiracy

03:04

everybody’s think this was stoner talk

03:06

this was you know you don’t I mean like

03:08

this is stuff where people just a

03:11

delusional they believe all kinds of

03:12

wacky conspiracies sure but the reality

03:15

is much less complicated well this is

03:16

not possible this is one of those things

03:18

it’s so obvious it’s so in everyone’s

03:21

face well there’s a couple of things

03:24

going on because there there are many

03:26

different ways than this can play out I

03:27

mean you could have a news director who

03:29

just sort of instinctively decides well

03:32

we can’t do that story because I might

03:34

want to have well and quedan later or I

03:35

might want to have this politician on

03:37

later and it’s it’s not like anybody

03:39

tells them necessarily that we can’t do

03:42

this but sighs too hot you if you grow

03:44

up in this system and you’ve been in the

03:46

the business for a long time you just

03:49

you have all these things that are

03:51

drilled into you and almost like the

03:52

cellular level about what you can and

03:54

cannot get into and I think there but

03:57

there were some explicit things that

03:59

happen with Epstein to I mean they keep

04:00

there there were a lot of news agencies

04:02

that killed stories about him that you

04:04

know and we’re hearing what some of them

04:05

in Vanity Fair this thing you know so

04:07

yeah it’s it’s bit stay it’s bad it’s

04:10

terrible yeah yeah when when I found out

04:13

that Clinton flew no less than 26 times

04:17

on a plane with Epstein I was like dude

04:20

I haven’t flown that many times with my

04:22

mom

04:23

long did he know Epstein yeah I don’t

04:26

know but I mean they have that many

04:28

flights to have the Secret Service

04:29

people involved I mean that’s incredibly

04:33

bold what was he dealing with just girls

04:36

was Clinton that much of a hound that he

04:40

would go that deep into the well that

04:42

many times 26 times well that’s the

04:45

thing about the Epson story that makes

04:46

no sense to me like I I thought that the

04:48

percentage of people who were out and

04:50

out like perverts who had a serious

04:53

problem like with petty ophelia or

04:55

whatever it was was pretty small you

04:57

know yeah but your but they had a lot of

05:00

people coming in and out of this

05:02

compound and and it just seems like it’s

05:04

a it’s a very strange story what were

05:07

they really up to I have I have no idea

05:09

and was was it all a blackmail scheme

05:10

it’s just it’s just so strange well

05:12

seems like the pedophilia aspect of it

05:14

might be directly connected to Epstein

05:16

himself like he might be the one that

05:19

has a problem with girls that are like

05:20

16 and he likes them very or he did like

05:23

them but with the other guys it could

05:27

just be girls

05:28

it could be yeah yeah I mean that’s why

05:29

it’s so crazy like how could it be that

05:31

these but maybe it’s not but they must

05:34

but they knew who he was

05:35

yeah but they probably didn’t know the

05:37

extent of it probably not yeah up until

05:40

a point up until he was arrested right

05:42

and then they’re like oh well then

05:44

that’s when everybody backed off of him

05:46

right yes yeah I mean I’m not a hundred

05:48

percent yeah I haven’t covered this

05:50

story in depth I’ve only I only really

05:52

got into it a little bit we made you cuz

05:59

it mixes a lot of things that are are

06:00

very tough to cover yes you know the

06:03

intelligence world is very tough to

06:04

cover mm-hm

06:05

you know it’s it’s hard to get stories

06:07

out of there that they don’t want you to

06:08

have yeah and this is this is like the

06:11

mother of all stories and you know in

06:13

terms of that and they’re just little

06:15

little bread crumbs here and there that

06:17

whole thing about Acosta

06:18

you know the vanity vanity fair– quote

06:21

from him is that when he said that when

06:24

he looked at the case he didn’t do it

06:27

because I was told he belonged to

06:28

intelligence yes what does that mean

06:31

right now whose intelligence you know

06:32

what I mean like what agency but what

06:34

for you

06:35

and then you pair that with things like

06:37

you know I have friends on Wall Street

06:39

who told me I’ve never heard a single

06:41

instance of this guy actually having a

06:43

trade right you know so what was his

06:45

hedge fund doing you know I mean if you

06:47

think about it hedge funds a perfect way

06:48

to do blackmail well because you can

06:51

just have people putting money in and

06:52

out all the time and it would look like

06:55

investment yeah so very strange story

06:58

well Eric Weinstein had a conversation

07:00

with him you know Eric Weinstein with

07:02

Peter Thiel capital right yeah he’s like

07:04

this guy does know what the fuck he’s

07:05

talking about oh yeah he’s an actor

07:09

right this is nonsense right right that

07:11

was initial almost instantaneous

07:13

response yeah yeah and and and what real

07:16

clients did he ever have what any

07:17

jewelry trade and what has he got a

07:19

billion dollars or whatever he had yeah

07:21

no it’s half a billion under management

07:23

yeah it’s ridiculous why the guy who

07:25

owns Victoria Secrets give him a seventy

07:28

million dollar home right in New York

07:30

City like why I mean these are all

07:33

things that would have been really

07:34

interesting to get into you know try to

07:37

kill himself the suicide didn’t happen

07:39

to him like in the wire all right oh

07:41

yeah yeah so unfortunate so

07:45

unfortunately the cameras died so

07:47

unfortunately sustained an injury that’s

07:49

uh that you usually only get through

07:52

strangulation right yeah murders you he

07:54

fell on the ground and accidentally

07:56

broke his hyoid bone yeah big deal I

08:00

mean it’s so bizarre I can’t stand

08:03

consider conspiracy theories I’m one of

08:04

these people who who doesn’t like

08:06

reading but I can’t I can’t make this

08:08

story work in a way that isn’t you know

08:11

yes pure toriel’s well that’s the thing

08:13

it’s like it gets to a point where you

08:15

like okay even Michael Shermer who runs

08:17

skeptic magazine wait a minute the

08:20

cameras we’re not working seems like a

08:24

conspiracy fucking when Michael Shermer

08:26

says he that guy doesn’t believe in

08:28

anything

08:28

right right he is fucking he’s down the

08:31

line on virtually every single thing

08:33

that’s ever happened he doesn’t believe

08:35

in any conspiracies well well how do you

08:37

what’s the innocent explanation for any

08:39

has none that doesn’t make any sense you

08:41

can’t you can’t spin it in any way to

08:43

make it not a crazy conspiracies

08:46

especially when the the brother

08:48

as a doctor to do an autopsy oh yeah it

08:51

says date I was fucking murdered right

08:53

yeah Michael Baden the famous guy from

08:55

the HBO autopsy show right yep

08:57

absolutely

08:58

Oh craziness complete craziness and you

09:01

know it’s an example of you know the FG

09:07

star it’s interesting because it’s

because it’s about villains on both

sides of the aisle right this is a

classic is something I’ve written about

before is that the press does not like

to do stories where the problem is

bipartisan yeah right so when you have

an institutional problem when Democrats

and Republicans both share

responsibility for it when you know or

or if it’s an institution that kind of

exists in perpetuity no matter what the

administration is we don’t really like

to do those stories we like if Fox likes

to do stories about Democrats MSNBC

likes to do stories about Republicans

but the thing that’s kind of you know

09:42

all over the place they don’t like to do

09:43

that story Epstein is you know he’s

09:45

friends with Trump and and with Clinton

09:48

I mean yeah obviously has more friends

09:49

on the Clinton side but still and I

09:51

think that’s this is one of the reasons

09:53

why this story doesn’t have a lot of

09:55

traction in the media because neither

09:57

side really likes the idea of going too

10:00

deeply on it feels like to me well it’s

10:03

but the the blatant aspect of it they

10:06

don’t mean the closest that we have to

10:08

that is the absolute murder the Jamal

Khashoggi murder that’s the closest

thing we have to or is absolute murder

ight this one but but it’s also so

insanely blatant but now you have

10:19

foreign actors that are involved in it

10:20

and they all disperse and then there’s

10:22

left with this confusion of to who’s

10:24

responsible for it well Saudi Arabia

10:27

that’s another example where you can’t

10:29

really say it’s you know one side of the

both parties have been incredibly

complicit in their cooperation with the

Saudi regime and in you know the

massacres that are going on Yemen it’s a

classic example of what Noam Chomsky

used to talk about with worthy and

unworthy victims right like if the

Soviet communists did it they were that

was bad but if death squads in El

Salvador killed a priest or a Catholic

priest you know then that that was

something we didn’t write about because

they were our client state Yemen is a

story we don’t write about Syria

is a story we do write about but they’re

11:03

really equivalent stories and yeah the

11:07

but you’re absolutely right the

11:08

khashoggi thing I don’t think either

11:10

party and or either sides media really

11:12

wants to get into that all that deeply

11:14

how much is media shifting now like

11:17

you’ve obviously been a journalist for a

11:19

long time but come how much are things

11:21

changing in the light of the Internet

11:24

well a lot and this is what I mean I

11:26

have a new book out now that’s really

11:27

about this right what why the business

11:29

has changed what’s it called hey dink

11:31

yeah it’s out its out now and it’s it’s

11:36

really about how the press the business

11:38

model the press has changed I mean it’s

11:40

something that you talk about a lot you

11:41

hear you on your show all the time

11:43

talking about how news agencies are

11:46

always trying to push narratives on

11:48

people trying to get people wound up and

11:50

upset and that is a conscious business

11:53

strategy that we didn’t have maybe 30

11:56

years ago you know you think about

11:58

Walter Cronkite or what the news was

12:00

like back in the day you had the whole

12:02

family sitting around the table and

12:04

everybody watched it was sort of a

12:06

unifying experience to watch the news

12:08

hmm now you have news for the crazy

12:11

right-wing uncle and then you have news

12:12

for the kid in the che shirt and their

12:15

different channels and they’re trying to

12:16

wind these these people up you know to

12:20

get them upset constantly and stay there

12:22

and a lot of that has to do with the

12:23

Internet because before the internet

12:27

news companies had like a basically free

12:29

way of making money they dominated

12:31

distribution the newspaper was the only

12:33

thing in town that had a you know if you

12:35

wanted to get a wan ad it had to be

12:37

through the local newspaper

12:38

now with the internet the internet is

12:40

the distribution system anybody has

12:43

access to it not just the local

12:44

newspaper and so there the easy money is

12:48

gone and we have to chase clicks more

12:49

than we ever had had to before we have

12:52

to chase eyeballs more than we have to

12:53

so we’ve had to build new money-making

strategies and and a lot of it has to do

with just sort of monetizing anger and

division and all these things and we

13:01

just didn’t do that before and it’s a

13:03

had a profound difference on the

13:05

on the media as a writer if you

13:07

personally experienced this sort of the

13:10

influence where people have tried to

13:12

lean you in the direction of clickbait

13:14

or perhaps maybe alter titles that make

13:18

them a little bit disingenuous in order

13:20

to get people excited about the I mean

13:21

you know I my editors at Rolling Stone

13:24

are pretty good in it and they give me a

13:25

lot of weight leeway to kind of explore

13:27

whatever I want to explore but I

13:29

definitely feel a lot of pressure that I

13:30

didn’t feel before in the business

13:33

because especially in the Trump era and

13:36

and you know I’ve written a lot about

13:37

the Russia story right but you know

13:39

that’s an example of one size media does

13:43

has one take on it and another size

13:45

media has another take on it and if you

13:47

are just the journalist and you and you

13:49

want to just sort of report the facts

13:52

you feel a lot of pressure to fit the

13:53

facts into a narrative that your

13:55

audience is gonna like and I had a lot

13:57

of problem with the Russia story because

13:58

I thought you know I don’t like Donald

14:00

Trump but I’m like I don’t I don’t think

14:02

this guy’s James Bond consorting with

14:04

Russian spies I think he’s corrupt in

14:07

other ways and there was a lot of

14:09

blowback on my side of the business

14:11

because you know people in sort of

14:15

liberal quote-unquote liberal media you

14:17

just have all there’s a lot of pressure

14:18

to have everybody fit into a certain

14:20

narrative and I think that’s really

14:21

unhealthy for the business yeah

14:23

very unhealthy right it’s you know

14:25

because as soon as people can be

14:26

manipulated to conform it to that

14:27

narrative then all sorts of stories can

14:29

be shifted oh yeah yeah absolutely and

14:32

and you the the job used to be about

14:35

challenging your audience every now and

14:37

then right like if you think a certain

14:38

thing is true well it’s our job to give

14:40

you the bad news and say that you’re

14:41

wrong about that that used to be what

14:43

the job was to be journalists now it’s

14:45

the opposite now we have an audience

14:48

we’re gonna tell you exactly what you

14:49

want to hear and what you and we’re

14:51

gonna reinforce what you think and

14:53

that’s very unhealthy a great example of

14:56

this was in the summer of 2016 I was

15:00

covering the campaign I started to hear

15:03

reporters talking about how they didn’t

15:06

want to report poll numbers that showed

15:08

the race was closed they thought that

15:10

that was gonna hurt Hillary all right

15:12

like we said in other words we had

15:13

information that the race was closed and

15:15

we’re not telling this to audiences

15:17

because

15:18

they wanted to hear that it was gonna be

15:20

a blowout for Hillary right on and that

15:23

didn’t help Hillary it didn’t help the

15:25

Democrats do not warn people about this

15:27

right but it was just because if you

15:30

turned on MSNBC or CNN and you heard

15:33

that Trump was within five points or

15:35

whatever it was that was gonna be a

15:37

bummer for that audience so we stayed

15:39

away from it and you know this is the

15:42

kind of thing it’s it’s not politically

15:44

beneficial to anybody it’s just we’re

15:46

just trying to keep people glued to the

15:48

set by telling them what they want to

15:50

hear and that’s not the news that’s not

15:51

that’s not our job you know and it

15:53

drives me crazy

15:55

yeah it should drive you crazy that what

15:57

you said about journalism being it used

16:00

to be something that you’re challenging

16:02

your reader you’re you’re giving them

16:04

this reality that may be uncomfortable

16:06

but it’s it’s educational and expands

16:09

their view of the world this where do

16:11

they get that now they don’t that’s the

16:13

whole problem

16:14

like you get you can predict exactly

16:17

what the each news organization what

16:21

their take is going to be on any issue

16:23

by going oh

16:24

just did you take an example when when

16:28

the business about the Isis leader al

16:30

Baghdadi

16:31

being killed hit the news

16:34

instantaneously you knew that the New

16:36

York Times CNN and the Washington Post

16:39

that they were going to write a whole

16:40

bunch of stories about how Trump was

16:42

overplaying the significance of it that

16:44

he you know that he was telling lies

16:48

about it they were they mate they you

16:50

knew they were gonna make the entire

16:51

thing about Trump and then meanwhile Fox

16:54

had a completely different spin on about

16:55

how heroic it was but but news audiences

16:58

didn’t have anywhere to go to just

16:59

simply hear who was this person

17:01

why was he important what were the

17:03

growth of the people in the region think

17:05

you know what kind of what is this gonna

17:07

mean going forward is they actually

17:09

gonna have any impact you know is are we

17:13

gonna have to continually you know is

17:16

there gonna be a new person like this

17:17

every every time are we actually

17:19

accomplishing it you don’t get that

17:21

anywhere all you get is Trump is a

17:23

shithead on one side and Trump is a hero

17:25

on the other side that’s that’s not the

17:27

news you know yeah and but the thing is

17:29

it’s like

17:31

the business aspect of it is so weird

17:33

like you have your guys like Hannity or

17:35

you can absolutely predict what that

17:37

guy’s gonna say every single time you

17:38

know what side he’s on and he’s blatant

17:41

about it mhm and when you see someone

17:45

like that you go okay well this is okay

17:47

where this is this is peak bullshit

17:48

right so where where do we go where I

17:51

see both sides where’s the where’s the

17:53

where’s the middle ground where someone

17:55

goes well this is true but you gotta say

17:57

this is honest too and this is this is

17:59

what’s going on over on this side and

18:00

the Republicans have a point here and

18:02

you don’t you don’t

18:04

there’s no mainstream media place where

18:07

you can go for that right now

18:08

no there isn’t and that’s I mean I mean

18:10

one of this is one of things already but

18:11

this is one of the reasons why shows

18:12

like yours are so popular I mean I think

18:14

there’s a complete loss of trust that

18:17

they feel like people are not being

18:18

honest with them all right and they’re

18:20

not being straight and you know they

18:22

they come to people like you and and a

18:25

lot of other people of independent folks

18:27

who aren’t like the quote-unquote

18:29

mainstream media because they it’s not

18:34

really thought it’s not reporting it’s

18:36

not anything if you can predict a

18:37

hundred percent what a person’s going to

18:39

say that’s not thinking that’s not

18:41

reporting that’s not it’s just marketing

18:42

someone like me that’s so disturbing I’m

18:44

a fuckin comedian and a Cagefighting

18:46

commentator when people are coming to me

18:48

like this is this is the source where

18:51

you go for unbiased representations of

18:53

what’s going on the world that’s crazy

18:55

well I mean I started interview with

18:58

Barry Weiss right and you just you did a

19:01

simple base you didn’t go to journalism

19:02

school right no no so she said something

19:06

about how you know oh she’s an Assad

19:09

toady and you said what does that mean

19:12

you just ask the simple basic questions

19:14

right what does that mean where is that

19:16

coming from how do you know that you

19:18

know yeah like journalism isn’t brain

19:21

surgery that’s all it is is to asking

19:22

the simple questions that sort of pop to

19:24

mind when you when you’re in a situation

19:26

like where did this happen how do we

19:28

know that that’s true and but there’s a

19:32

whole generation of people in the press

19:33

now who just simply do not do that go

19:36

through the process of just asking

19:37

simple questions like how do I know

19:39

that’s true like after each story your

19:41

report you’re supposed to kind of like

19:43

wipe your memory clean and start over

19:45

so just because somebody was banned the

19:47

last time you covered them doesn’t mean

19:48

that they’re necessarily going to be the

19:50

bad guy this time you cover them all

19:52

right you have to continually test your

19:54

assumptions and ask yourself is this

19:57

true is that true is this true how do we

19:59

know this and we’ve just stopped doing

20:02

that like the it’s just the maratha of

20:04

like pre-written

20:06

takes on things and it’s it’s really

20:09

really bad and you can see why audiences

20:12

are fleeing from this stuff they just

20:14

don’t have the impact they used to well

20:16

it’s really interesting this a lot of

20:17

this is this unpredicted consequence of

20:20

having these open platforms like

20:22

Facebook and like where people are

20:24

getting their news and then the

20:25

algorithm sort of directs them towards

20:28

things that are going to piss them off

20:30

which I don’t even think necessarily was

20:33

initially the plan I think the plan is

20:35

to accelerate engagement right so they

20:37

find out what what what you’re engaging

20:40

with what stories you’re engaging with

20:41

and then they give you more of that like

20:44

re my friend Ari Shaffir actually tried

20:47

this out and what he did was he went on

20:50

YouTube and only looked puppy videos and

20:54

that’s all he looked at for like weeks

20:56

and then YouTube only started

20:58

recommending puppy videos to him so it’s

21:01

not necessarily that Facebook wants you

21:04

to be outraged but that when you are

21:06

outraged whether it’s over abortion or

21:08

war whatever the subject is you’re going

21:10

to engage more and their algorithm

21:12

favors you engaging more so if you’re

21:14

engaging more about something very

21:16

positive you know if you’re all about

21:17

yoga and meditation your algorithm would

21:20

probably favor yoga and meditation

21:22

because those are the things that you

21:23

engage with but it’s natural for people

21:26

to be pissed off sure to look for things

21:29

that are annoying especially if you’re

21:30

done working and you’re like kind this

21:31

world sucks what’s going on that sucks

21:33

worse and then you go to your Facebook

21:35

and oh Jesus look at this goddamn border

21:37

crisis right oh Jesus look at this while

21:39

fucking here’s the problem with these

21:41

goddamn liberal they don’t know sure and

21:42

you engage and then that’s your life and

21:46

then it’s it’s saying oh I know how to

21:47

get mad all fired up I’m gonna fucking

21:49

send them some abortion stories whoa

21:51

right and then that’s your feed right

21:53

yeah exactly but the but there’s so many

21:55

economic incentives that go in there

21:57

right they know the

21:58

more that you engage the longer that

22:01

you’re on right the more ads yes you can

22:03

you’re gonna see yeah right so that same

22:05

dynamic that Facebook and and the social

22:08

media companies figure it out

22:10

which is that if you keep feeding

22:12

something somebody something that you

22:14

know has been proven to spin that person

22:16

up and get them wound up that they’re

22:18

gonna they’re gonna come back for more

22:20

of it and they’re gonna keep coming back

22:22

and actually you can expand their desire

22:24

just to see that stuff by by making them

22:27

sort of more angry overall and they will

22:31

they will come back and they will spend

22:33

more and more and more time well the

22:34

news companies figured out the same

22:35

thing and they’re just they’re just

22:36

funneling stuff at you that they know

22:39

you’re gonna you’re gonna just be in an

22:42

endless cycle of sort of an impotent

22:43

mute rage all the time but it’s kind of

22:46

addicting you know and they know that

22:48

and in there and it’s it’s sort of like

22:50

the tobacco companies they know it’s a

22:51

bet it’s a product that’s bad for you

22:53

and they just keep giving it to you

22:55

because you know it makes money for them

22:56

yeah and it’s just the thing about it is

23:00

all of it is about ads told how many

23:04

clicks they get in ads if they just said

23:06

you can have a social media company but

23:08

you can’t have ads there’s a new federal

23:11

law no more ads on Facebook no more ads

23:13

on YouTube no our ads on Twitter no more

23:16

ads on Instagram good luck right yeah

23:19

we’re all collapse yo yeah but that

23:22

seems to be what it is it’s like they

23:24

figured out that your data is worth a

23:26

tremendous amount of money and the way

23:29

they can utilize that money is to sell

23:31

advertising mm-hmm ya know they they

23:33

coulda coming and going because they’re

23:35

they’re not only selling you ads or but

23:38

they’re also collecting the information

23:39

about your habits which they can then

23:41

sell again yeah so it’s a it’s a dual

23:43

revenue stream you know is it the media

23:46

companies they’re basically they’re just

23:49

consumer businesses where they’re

23:51

they’re trading attention for ad space

23:53

right so if they can get you to watch

23:55

four hours of television a day they have

23:57

that many ad slots that they can show

23:59

you and they know how much money they’re

24:00

gonna make you know but the the social

24:02

media companies get it two ways they’re

24:04

they they get it by you know attracting

24:06

your eyeballs and then also selling

24:08

selling your habits to the other the

24:10

next set of advertise

24:11

which you know is very insidious but

24:13

what’s interesting about this is that

24:14

most people don’t think about this as a

24:17

consumer business right like Americans

24:19

these days are very conscious of like

24:20

what they put in their bodies

24:21

you know they won’t eat too many candy

24:23

bowl depending on who they are right but

24:25

people at least look at what the

24:26

calories are but they don’t think about

24:28

the news that way or social media like

24:31

that with it put on their brains and

24:32

it’s also a consumer product yeah it

24:34

really is I’ve gone over that many times

24:37

with people that that’s a diet this is

24:39

your diet you have a mental diet as well

24:41

as you have a physical like food diet

24:43

absolutely of an information diet and a

24:46

lot of people are just eating shit with

24:48

their brain it’s the worst kind of junk

24:50

food it’s like it’s like a cigarette

24:52

sandwich the stuff yeah it’s so fucking

24:54

bad and it’s getting worse it is it is

24:56

getting worse and it’s what’s weird is

24:58

that this is a ten-year-old problem and

25:00

no one saw it coming and it’s kind of

25:02

overtaking politics it’s overtaking the

25:04

social discourse everybody’s wrapped up

25:07

in social media conversations they carry

25:09

them on over to the dinner table and it

25:11

gets people in arguments at work and all

25:14

this stuff no one saw coming these that

25:17

no one saw the this outrage economy from

25:21

you know social media sites from things

25:23

like Facebook no one saw that no one no

25:25

one ever predicted that your data was

25:27

gonna be so valuable no the fuck saw

25:29

that I don’t think anybody I mean I

25:32

think some people in the tech business

25:33

probably saw early on yeah it’s a

25:35

potential for this but you know in terms

25:38

of other other businesses like the news

25:41

media and also politics I mean you have

25:43

to think about the impact of this on

25:45

politics has been enormous

25:47

you know I covered Donald Trump Trump

25:50

really was just all about whatever

25:52

you’re pissed off about I’m right there

25:54

with you you know and people are just

25:56

sort of pissed off about lots of things

25:58

these days because they’re doing this

25:59

all day long you know and if you if you

26:02

can if you can take advantage of that

26:05

then you’re gonna have a lot of success

26:06

and I think I think a lot of people

26:07

haven’t figured that out and some of

26:09

these things are real causes like people

26:11

are upset about real things but it’s

26:14

just yeah you’re absolutely right people

26:16

did not see this coming and they didn’t

26:18

prepare for it’s just weird that it’s

26:19

one of the biggest sources of income on

26:22

and people didn’t see it coming I mean

26:24

Facebook is generating billions of

26:27

dollars and now yeah potentially

26:29

shifting global politics yeah and you

26:33

know the the whole issue of a couple of

26:36

companies like Facebook having control

26:39

over what you do and do not see is yeah

26:41

it’s an enormous problem that nobody

26:43

nobody really cares about I’ve tried to

26:45

write about it a few times I’ve written

26:47

a couple of features about it what about

26:49

how what a serious problem this is look

26:51

if you look at other countries like

26:53

Israel China there there are a number of

26:58

companies where you’ve seen this this

26:59

pattern of internet platforms

27:02

liaison with the government to decide

27:04

what people can and cannot see and

27:06

they’ll say well we don’t want to see

27:09

you know Palestinian protest movement so

27:11

we don’t want to see you know the

27:13

Venezuelan Channel tell us or like we

27:16

want to take that off you think about

27:18

how that could end up happening in the

27:20

United States and it is already a little

27:21

bit happening it’s a little bit but it

27:23

seems to be happening only in the terms

27:25

of like leaning towards the progressive

27:27

side which people are okay with because

27:28

they think especially in the light of

27:30

Donald Trump being in office this is

27:32

acceptable censorship yeah but they’re I

27:34

think they’re wrong about I think you’re

27:36

wrong about that – yeah and terribly

27:38

dangerous

27:38

it’s very short-sighted yes in and they

27:41

and I think there’s there’s also this

27:43

thing that happens with people where

27:46

they think well this is never gonna

27:48

happen to me you know like you can do

27:50

that bad thing to this person that I

27:52

don’t like but you know as long as it’s

27:53

never gonna happen to me exactly but

27:55

they’re wrong and my history shows it

27:57

always does happen to you you know and

27:58

that’s so we’re giving these companies

28:00

an enormous amount of power to decide

28:02

all kinds of things what we look at what

28:06

what kind of political ideas we can be

28:08

exposed to you know I think it’s very

28:11

very dangerous

28:11

that biased interpretation of what

28:13

something is that was what people talked

28:16

about when the initial Patriot Act was

28:18

enacted when people were like hey this

28:21

might be fine with Obama in office right

28:23

maybe Obama is not going to enact some

28:28

of the worst clauses of this and use it

28:30

on people or the was the NDAA so I would

28:34

rise yeah

28:35

where some of the things were just

28:36

completely unconstitutional but don’t

28:38

worry we’re not gonna use those but

28:40

you’re setting these tools aside for

28:43

whatever fucking president we have like

28:45

what if we have a guy you out trumps

28:46

Trump right I mean we never thought we’d

28:48

have a Trump right what if we have a

28:50

next-level guy post Trump what if

28:52

there’s some sort of catastrophe tragedy

28:56

attack something that really gets people

28:59

fired up and they vote in someone who

29:01

takes it up to another level and then he

29:03

has these tools and then he uses these

29:04

tools on his political enemies which is

29:06

entirely possible well I mean we’ve

29:08

already seen that a little bit I mean

29:10

people don’t want to bring this up I

29:11

mean i but you know a lot of the stories

29:14

that have come out about Trump they’re

29:15

coming from leaks of classified

29:17

information that are coming from those

29:19

war on terror programs that were

29:21

instituted after 9/11 yes this is five

29:23

the certifies Amendments Act the NSA

29:26

programs to collect data like they’re

29:27

they’re unmasking people like we have a

29:30

lot of evidence now that there was a

29:32

lawsuit a couple that came out about a

29:33

month ago that showed that the FBI was

29:37

doing something like 60,000 searches a

29:39

month at one point where they’re on you

29:42

know they were asking the NSA for the

29:44

ability to unmask names and that that

29:45

sort of thing so we’re I mean these

29:49

tools are incredibly powerful they’re

29:51

incredibly dangerous but people thought

29:52

after 9/11 they were scared so you know

29:55

we want to protect ourselves so that’s

29:57

okay for now

29:58

you know well we’ll pull it back later

30:00

but they mean it but you never do pull

30:02

it back right no and I mean it always

30:04

ends up being used by somebody in the

30:06

wrong way and I think we’re starting to

30:08

see that that’s going to be a problem

30:09

yeah I’m real concerned about places

30:13

like Google and Facebook altering the

30:16

path of free speech and and leaning

30:20

people in certain directions and

30:21

silencing people that have opposing

30:23

viewpoints and the fact that they think

30:26

that they’re doing this for good because

30:28

this is how they see the world and they

30:30

don’t understand that you have to let

30:32

these ideas play out in the marketplace

30:34

of free speech and free ideas if you

30:36

don’t do that if you don’t do that if

30:38

you don’t let people debate the merits

30:40

the pros the cons what’s wrong what’s

30:42

right if you don’t do that then you

30:44

don’t get real discourse if you don’t

30:45

get real discourse you’re essentially

30:47

you’ve got some sort

30:48

of an intellectual dictatorship going on

30:49

and because it’s a progressive

30:51

dictatorship you think it’s okay because

30:53

it’s people who want everybody be

30:55

inclusive and you know I mean this is

30:58

this is a weird time for that it’s a

31:00

really weird time for that because as

31:01

you said people are so short-sighted

31:03

they don’t understand that these like

31:05

the First Amendment’s in place for a

31:07

very good reason and set up a long

31:09

fucking time ago because they did the

31:10

math they saw where it was going and

31:12

they were like look we have to have the

31:14

ability to express ourselves we have to

31:15

have the ability to freely express

31:18

thoughts and ideas and challenge people

31:20

that are in a position of power because

31:21

if we don’t we wind up exactly where we

31:24

came from mm-hmm yeah no and and courts

31:27

continually reaffirmed that idea that

31:30

the the the way to deal with bad speech

31:33

was with more speech yes and they did it

31:35

over and over and over again you know we

31:37

we the the legal standard for speech you

31:41

know still I think remains that unless

31:45

it’s directly inciting violence you

31:46

couldn’t you could like you can have

31:47

speech that incites violence generally

31:49

and even the the Supreme Court even

31:51

upheld that you can have speech that’s

31:53

that comes from you know material that

31:55

was stolen illegally that’s okay but we

31:58

had a very very high bar for prohibiting

32:00

speech always and you know the the

32:03

liable cases this the cases for

32:05

defamation you know that also

32:08

established a very very high standard

32:09

for punishing speech but now all of a

32:12

sudden people have a completely

32:13

different idea but it’s like you know

32:15

forget about the fact that this was a

32:17

fundamental concept in American society

32:19

for you know two hundred and thirty

32:21

years or what they just want to change

32:22

it you know without thinking about the

32:25

consequences well that’s where a guy

32:26

like Trump could be almost like it’s

32:30

almost like a Trojan horse in a way like

32:33

if you wanted to play 3d chess which you

32:35

would do you’d get a guy who’s just so

32:37

egregious and so outrageous and then so

32:40

many people opposed them get that guy

32:42

let him get into a position of power and

32:44

then sit back watch the outrage bubble

32:46

and then take advantage of that and

32:48

funnel people into certain directions I

32:50

mean I don’t think that’s what’s

32:51

happening but if I was super fucking

32:54

tinfoil Hattie that’s how I would go

32:57

about it I would say this is what you

32:58

want if you really want to change things

33:00

for your direction

33:01

put someone that opposes it that’s

33:04

disgusting and that way people just a

33:07

rational intelligent person is never

33:10

gonna side with him

33:11

so they’re gonna side with the people

33:12

that oppose him and then you could sneak

33:14

a lot of shit in that maybe they

33:15

wouldn’t agree with and any other

33:16

circumstance yeah Trump’s election sort

33:19

of like another 9/11 right like you know

33:21

9/11 happened all of a sudden people who

33:23

weren’t in favor of the government being

33:25

able to go through your library records

33:27

or listen to your phone calls and all of

33:29

a sudden they were like oh Jesus I’m so

33:30

freaked out like yeah fine when Trump

33:33

got elected all of a sudden people

33:34

suddenly had very different ideas about

33:36

speech and like they you know hey that

33:39

guy’s so bad you know that maybe we

33:42

should consider banning x y&z yeah and I

33:46

yeah it’s me if he was conceived as a

33:52

way to discredit the First Amendment and

33:55

some other ideas that would that would

33:57

that would be a brilliant 3d chess move

33:59

yeah super sneaky yeah that’s like China

34:02

level many steps ahead exactly I mean

34:07

what do you think all this goes it seems

34:11

like this is I mean obviously just wrote

34:13

a book about it but it seems like this

34:15

is accelerating and it doesn’t seem like

34:18

anyone’s taking a step back and hitting

34:20

the brakes or opting out it seems like

34:23

people are just ramping up the rhetoric

34:25

yeah I mean I think that the the

34:27

divisive miss problem is is going to get

34:29

worse before it gets better

34:32

the the business model of of of the

34:35

media now is so entrenched that until

34:39

some of these these companies start

34:42

going out of business because they’re

34:43

doing you know they’re losing audience

34:46

because people don’t trust them anymore

34:48

the you know the news is going to keep

34:50

doing what it’s doing it’s gonna Canada

34:52

model is gonna become normal for for

34:55

news companies I think it or it already

34:57

basically is you know on both the left

34:59

and the right and in terms of you know

35:02

the Internet companies they’re

35:05

consolidating they’re getting more and

35:06

more power all the time and there’s I I

35:09

think we’ve already seen that people

35:11

have I think too much tolerance for

35:13

letting letting them make decisions

35:14

about

35:15

what we can and cannot see and I think

35:18

it’s gonna get worse before it gets

35:19

better I don’t know what do you think I

35:20

yeah that’s what I think I mean Facebook

35:22

Twitter all these play Twitter has some

35:24

of the most ridiculous reasons for

35:25

banning people one of them is dead

35:27

naming oh yeah

35:28

so if you call Caitlyn Jenner Bruce

35:30

right okay I like you better when you

35:32

were Bruce banned for life right you

35:34

can’t even say I liked you better when

35:35

you were Bruce banned for life right

35:38

yeah and and and actually that that

35:40

what’s really interesting about that is

35:42

that’s a that’s a core concept that

35:46

we’ve changed completely like all the

35:48

different ways in the past that we

35:49

punished speech we punished the speech

35:52

not the person yes right so if you know

35:55

liable defamation all those things first

35:58

of all they were all done through the

35:59

courts so you had a way to fight back if

36:02

you thought you were unjustly accused of

36:04

having defamed somebody or live with

36:05

somebody but if they found against you

36:08

the person who got something out of it

36:11

was the person who was directly harmed

36:12

right and again the courts judged that

36:14

and they you know it wasn’t like you

36:17

were banned from for life from ever

36:19

speaking again right they just gave a

36:21

bunch of money to a person who might

36:23

have suffered some kind of career injury

36:24

or whatever it was because of that and

36:28

usually there was a retraction or it was

36:30

removed from the press or whatever it

36:31

was but it wasn’t like we were we were

36:33

saying we’re never gonna allow you to be

36:35

hurt or seen from again we kind of won’t

36:38

we were sort of encouraging

36:39

optimistically people to get better

36:41

right and yeah and to be different right

36:44

now and now we’re not doing that at all

36:45

now we’re just saying you won one strike

36:47

or two strikes whatever you’re gone and

36:49

it’s not like it’s a public thing so you

36:52

can’t sue over it right yeah well that’s

36:54

what’s crazy about it because it is a

36:56

public utility in a way yes it is even

36:59

Jack Dorsey from Twitter and admitted as

37:02

much on the podcast and he wishes that

37:04

we would view it that way he’s actually

37:05

proposed two versions of Twitter a

37:08

Twitter with their standard censorship

37:11

in place and then a Wild West Twitter

37:13

mm-hmm but I’m like sign me up right

37:15

yeah on that Wild West Twitter right is

37:17

the problem with like things like gab

37:19

and I’ve gone there a few times and

37:22

watched it and I mean even Milo Union

37:24

appleís is criticized for being this is

37:26

that it’s just like so hate-filled

37:27

because it’s the place where you can go

37:29

and

37:29

fuckin say anything right so the only

37:31

people that it’s attracting are people

37:33

that just want to go there and just

37:34

fucking shoot off canons of n-bombs and

37:36

RAL everybody a kike it’s crazy

37:39

I mean it’s and there’s real

37:41

communication there as well there’s

37:43

there’s plenty of that too but the sheer

37:47

number of people that go there just to

37:49

blow off steam because they can’t say

37:51

those things on Twitter or Facebook or

37:53

any other social media platform without

37:55

being banned because of that it becomes

37:57

a channel for it mm-hmm you know and

37:59

it’s like it doesn’t get a chance it

38:01

doesn’t get a chance to the concept is

38:03

great the concept is if you’re not doing

38:05

anything illegal we’re not gonna stop

38:07

you’re not daxing anybody you’re not

38:08

threatening anybody’s life we’re not

38:09

gonna stop you go ahead but if you you

38:11

do that and you’re the only one that

38:13

does that unfortunately everyone who

38:15

wants to just say fucked up shit goes

38:18

right and you get a disproportionate

38:19

amount of fucked up shit

38:21

yeah and it’s directly because the fact

38:23

that these places like Twitter or

38:24

Facebook have censored and they make it

38:27

so you are scared to say whatever you

38:29

want to say mm-hmm and so you can so

38:31

even if you have controversial ideas

38:33

that maybe some people would agree with

38:34

in someone you get banned for life for

38:37

just controversial ideas even

38:39

controversial ideas that are

38:40

scientifically and biologically factual

38:43

right the transgender issue like if you

38:46

say there’s a woman I brought her up a

38:48

million times when Megan Murphy yes a

38:51

man is never a woman she says they tell

38:53

her to take it down she takes a

38:55

screenshot of it puts that up takes it

38:57

down but takes a screenshot of the

38:59

initial tweet haha look at that banned

39:02

for life right a man is never a woman is

39:04

a fact that is a fact it’s a biological

39:06

fact now if you decide to become a woman

39:09

and we recognize you as a woman in

39:11

society well that’s just common courtesy

39:12

in my eyes like you have a person who

39:14

has this issue they feel like they were

39:16

born in the wrong body okay I get that

39:18

I’m cool with that

39:19

but to make it so that you’re banned

39:21

forever you can call someone a dumb fuck

39:24

an idiot a piece of shit your mother

39:27

should have swallowed you everybody’s

39:28

like yeah do Petain Terms of Service

39:29

seem fine here everything’s good say a

39:32

man is never a woman gone for life right

39:35

yeah Caitlyn Jenner I liked you better

39:37

when you’re bruce dunn that’s it yeah no

39:40

and and it’s crazy and obviously

39:42

people see that and they and they just

39:44

get matter and and it seems to

39:46

legitimate

39:47

it makes people very very resentful in

39:50

ways that they wouldn’t be otherwise it

39:52

makes there’s no pathway there’s no

39:54

there’s no other thing right there’s no

39:56

free speech platform that’s universally

39:59

accepted like these ones like I said

40:02

like gab or there’s a couple other ones

40:03

out there there’s not no one’s using

40:06

them yeah it’s a very small percentage

40:07

of the people in comparison to something

40:09

like Twitter which is enormous right and

40:11

so because people don’t want to be

40:13

kicked off the platform they’re

40:14

radically changing there is no sense

40:18

right and we’re seeing this a lot also

40:19

with political ideas to like you know

40:22

you know I have a podcast used useful

40:24

idiots it’s called right we’re like we

40:26

try to talk to people who are kind of

40:28

excluded from mainstream media because

40:30

that’s happening a lot now right like if

40:32

you have the wrong idea about anything

40:35

whether it’s Russia gate or the

40:38

israel-palestine conflict or Syria or

40:40

whatever it is you’ll you will suddenly

40:44

be sort of labeled I mean with tulsi

40:46

gabbard friends they call her an

40:47

assadist right like once you get stuck

40:50

with the term assadist on twitter nobody

40:52

wants to associate you with you no one

40:54

wants to defend you right they all kind

40:56

of and be it’s your you’re like suddenly

40:59

like the kid with lice and people don’t

41:02

want that to happen to them so they stop

41:04

saying X Y & Z yeah right and and they

41:06

just sort of go with with the flow will

41:08

go with the crowd and it causes this

41:10

sort of you know uniform conformist

41:16

discourse that does isn’t really about

41:18

anything right people are afraid to talk

41:20

which is crazy yeah right well you’re

41:23

not supposed to talk to someone I

41:25

experience this all the time the this

41:27

idea of giving someone a platform like

41:29

look if I have someone on like a ben

41:31

shapiro or something like that you

41:32

shouldn’t give that guy a platform well

41:34

he’s already got a platform should

41:36

wouldn’t be better if I just talk to him

41:37

and find out what his ideas are and ask

41:40

him about those ideas like we had a very

41:41

bizarre conversation about gay people

41:43

where it means basically full on

41:46

biblical religious interpretation of gay

41:49

people which to me is always strange

41:52

like okay how do you stand on shellfish

41:54

you know do you

41:56

just as strong on shrimp whereas your on

41:59

gay guys right like why is it gay guys

42:02

it’s that like the Bible’s pretty clear

42:05

on a bunch of different things that

42:07

don’t seem to fire people up the way

42:10

homosexuality does like why why do you

42:13

care if you had a friend that was eating

42:14

shrimp would you go to his house we had

42:16

shrimp cocktail no but you wouldn’t go

42:18

to a friend’s house if he was having a

42:20

gay marriage mm-hmm so you won’t

42:23

celebrate gay marriage but you don’t

42:25

mind a guy who’s got a fucking a

42:27

shellfish platter right out at a party

42:30

like that’s in the Bible man right

42:33

you’re not supposed to wear two

42:33

different kinds of cloth you you know

42:36

that is the bunt there’s a bunch of shit

42:38

in the Bible that you like Wow God was

42:40

wrong about that like how confident are

42:42

you right how comforting you that you

42:44

can interpret God’s Word so perfectly

42:46

that you’re like you let the lobster

42:48

slide but all that but fucking we got to

42:50

stop that you know like it’s really

42:52

weird but that’s the whole point of you

42:54

to challenge the idea yes yes but but

42:57

the prevailing view now is that even

43:00

having the discussion yes because you

43:03

have a platform I mean I read that thing

43:05

in Al and the Atlantic you know where

43:06

they’re like you you you give people to

43:09

I forget what the phrase was they were

43:11

saying something like you had I give to

43:14

people too many chances too many chances

43:15

the people who had already forfeited the

43:17

right to have them or something

43:18

something along those lines but that was

43:20

silly yeah guy gave up his hand when he

43:21

said about me that I’m inexhaustible but

43:24

that he like snaps right oh it’s about

43:27

you and now that’s what it is you not

43:30

you like naps okay so you don’t like

43:32

people that have energy I’m super sorry

43:34

but the the you know I thought that

43:36

piece was really interesting because

43:38

that the whole idea that there are

43:40

people who have forfeited the right to

43:42

take a forever to communicate forever

43:44

well who decides that I mean it again

43:46

there’s this there’s this intellectual

43:48

snob ISM yet goes on and you know

43:52

frankly on my side of the media aisle

43:54

where well we’ll decide what what an

43:56

appropriate thought is what’s what’s

43:58

right thinking what’s wrong thinking you

44:01

know what who gets to have a platform

44:03

who doesn’t get to have a platform who

44:04

we who were gonna call a monster who are

44:06

not currently I mean Minh Tunder stand

44:09

that the arrogance where

44:10

from to decide that some people you know

44:13

and I totally disagree with people like

44:14

you know Alex Jones or Shapiro or you

44:17

know most things and but I don’t think

44:20

that they should be wiped off the face

44:21

of the earth I mean I don’t know

44:23

well it’s interesting to challenge

44:24

people on these weird ideas and find out

44:26

how they come to them and and you will

44:28

get a lot of fence sitters that will

44:30

recognize the flaws in their thinking if

44:32

you let them talk because there’s a lot

44:34

of people that aren’t sure either way

44:35

maybe they haven’t invested a lot of

44:37

time investigating it maybe they really

44:39

don’t know what this guy stands for

44:41

maybe they just read a cartoonish

44:42

version of who he is and then you get to

44:44

hear them talking to go oh well I see

44:46

the flaw in his thinking or oh well he’s

44:49

right about some things and a lot of

44:50

people are right about some things

44:52

they’re wrong about things and they’re

44:54

right about things and the only way you

44:55

can discern that is you communicate with

44:58

them but as soon as you deep platform

44:59

people like forever you’re just gonna

45:01

make a bunch of angry people you’re just

45:03

gonna make a bunch of people that are

45:05

completely distrusting and you’re gonna

45:07

absolutely empower the opponents of your

45:10

ideas but like people that do get to

45:13

when when do they get a chance to have

45:14

their voice well when they vote so the

45:17

more you do this shit the more you

45:18

censor conservatives the more they’re

45:20

gonna vote against liberals this is just

45:22

a fact

45:23

mm-hmm there’s no getting around that

45:24

this is human nature yeah I mean I I

45:26

lived in the former Soviet Union you

45:30

know for 11 years and 100% if you lived

45:36

in Soviet Russia and something was

45:38

published by an official publisher

45:40

people thought it was basically bullshit

45:42

right but if it was in the samizdat if

45:45

it was in the privately circled stuff

45:47

that had been repressed and censored

45:48

people thought that was the coolest

45:50

thing in the world like that that was

45:51

the hot ticket right and you’re

45:53

automatically giving something cachet

45:56

and an added weight by censoring it I

46:01

mean this is just proof it’s just the

46:02

way it works it’s human nature if people

46:04

think that you don’t want them to see

46:05

something they’re gonna run through it

46:07

twice as hard you know so I just don’t

46:09

understand a lot of that instinct I

46:11

think people people have this idea that

46:13

it works that you know the deep

46:16

platforming works but you can’t deep

46:18

platformer an idea you know you may be

46:20

able to do it to a person or to yes but

46:23

you eventually

46:23

you have to confront the idea you could

46:25

do it to a few people and it has been

46:27

successful which is one of the reason

46:28

why people are so emboldened like they

46:30

have a successful IDI platform Milo

46:32

mm-hmm I mean they really have it’s very

46:34

hard to hear him talk anymore you don’t

46:36

he’s not in the public conversation the

46:39

way he used to be right because they

46:41

kicked him off of all these different

46:42

platforms and if you go into why they

46:45

kicked him off these different platforms

46:46

but even if you don’t agree with him and

46:48

I don’t own a lot of things like boy I

46:51

don’t agree with kicking him off those

46:52

platforms if you you listen to what he

46:54

got kicked off for it’s like man I don’t

46:56

know this this doesn’t seem like this

46:58

makes a lot of sense yeah no I mean the

47:01

same thing with Alex Jones

47:02

yeah Alex Alex Jones has said you know

47:05

he’s got after me a couple of times in

47:07

ways that were pretty funny actually but

47:09

when he was you know kicked off the all

47:12

these platforms you know I wrote a piece

47:14

saying I think people are kind of doing

47:16

an end zone dance a little early on this

47:18

one you know because you Jones is a

47:22

classic example of how the system

47:25

the way the system used to work they

47:26

would have punished him for for being in

47:29

the libelous about the Sandy Hook thing

47:31

right because that that would sort of

47:33

fit the classic definition of what was

47:34

what prohibited speech was before but we

47:37

wouldn’t any he would have lost probably

47:39

a lot and he still might on in those

47:41

court cases but to remove him forever I

47:44

think you know it just sets it it

47:48

creates a new way of dealing with speech

47:51

that I think is very dangerous you know

47:53

right because the goalposts keep getting

47:54

moved right if you can ban him for that

47:57

then why don’t you ban me for repeating

47:59

the things that I said about Megan

48:01

Murphy right or ban because what I said

48:03

about Bruce Jenner banned this for that

48:06

I mean you it gets you get further and

48:08

further down the line you keep moving

48:09

these goalposts and next thing you know

48:11

you’re in a very rigid tightly

48:13

controlled area where you can

48:15

communicate and you’re suppressed and

48:17

that just it accelerates your desire to

48:21

step out of that boundary and it makes

48:23

you want to say things that maybe you

48:24

wouldn’t even have thought of before and

48:26

also logistically it’s an incredibly

48:28

it’s a it’s an insane thing to even

48:31

think about asking platforms to

48:34

rationally go through all this content I

48:36

talked to somebody who

48:37

a pretty high-ranking Facebook executive

48:38

after the Alex Jones thing and he said

48:41

think about what we used to used to do

48:42

just to keep porn off Facebook and we’re

48:46

dealing with what a couple of billion

48:48

items of content every single day we had

48:50

these really high-tech algorithms that

48:52

we design to look for flesh tones at

48:54

that site and that’s how the Vietnamese

48:57

running girl photo got taken off

48:59

Facebook because they like automatically

49:01

spotted a naked girl I know and they

49:04

took that down you know the he’s like

49:07

the Facebook I’ll go doesn’t know that’s

49:08

an icon of fucking journalism right like

49:10

it just knows it’s a naked girl so you

49:13

say you take that and now you’re gonna

49:15

ask Facebook to make decisions about

49:17

about ideas right like if it’s that hard

49:21

and that expensive for us to go through

49:23

and just just to keep child porn off of

49:27

Facebook think about how crazy it’s

49:29

gonna be when we when we start having

49:31

entry-level people deciding what is and

49:33

is not appropriate political content

49:35

yeah it’s it’s not only gonna be

49:37

impossible to enforce it’s it’s gonna

49:41

they’re gonna make a mess of it and they

49:43

will and they already are you know and I

49:44

think that’s what we’re seeing well

49:46

that’s why Twitter so weird because you

49:48

can get away with shit on Facebook you

49:50

can say things on Facebook like Facebook

49:52

doesn’t have a policy about dead naming

49:54

or Facebook doesn’t have a policy about

49:56

misgendering people but they do have a

49:59

porn policy

50:00

well now Twitter you can have porn right

50:04

me then I will have to be very careful

50:06

when I give my phone to my kids

50:08

that make sure they don’t open up the

50:09

fucking Twitter app yeah because I

50:11

follow a lot of dirty girls and some of

50:12

them I mean they’re it’s just right

50:15

there there’s no warning bang right in

50:17

your face I mean it’s kind of crazy

50:18

right they have such an open policy when

50:22

it comes to sex which I’m happy they do

50:24

I’m happy not even that I want to see

50:26

porn but I’m happy that their attitude

50:28

is just fine it’s legal do yeah you

50:32

don’t have to follow those people if you

50:33

don’t like it seems like it’s in the

50:35

American spirit to be I know but but it

50:38

all comes down to for me but but ya know

50:41

the the policies are completely

50:43

inconsistent to with with Twitter like

50:45

I’ve seen I mean I’ve talked to people

50:46

who have been removed from Twitter for

50:49

saying pretty

50:50

you know pretty borderline things right

50:53

like they’re you know basically pretty

50:55

mild insults or something that would be

50:57

threatening only if you really splinted

50:59

hard you know

51:00

there was a guy from the Ron Paul

51:01

Institute who got this who got taken

51:03

down for instance because he was having

51:04

a fight with some you know guy who was I

51:07

think a Clinton fan I forget what it was

51:09

exactly but you’ll see behavior that’s

51:13

much worse from people who have another

51:16

political ilk and they will not be

51:18

removed or they might be a smaller

51:20

profile person they won’t be removed so

51:22

and then what is that all about right

51:24

like if if it’s only a person who has

51:25

20,000 followers or higher we’re gonna

51:27

mean it’s just so you just can’t do it

51:30

there’s just too many layers and anyway

51:33

I’m against it just generally but just

51:35

in terms of logistics it doesn’t make

51:36

any sense I’m against it generally too

51:38

and when I talked to Jack and he was

51:39

explaining to me the problems with

51:41

trying to manage things at scale you

51:44

really kind of get a sense of it like oh

51:46

you guys are dealing with billions and

51:48

billions of humans using these things

51:50

right yeah yeah and and but they’re

51:53

already you know in many countries

51:56

around the world they have armies of

51:59

thousands of people who go through

52:01

content to try to flag this or that kind

52:03

of political content yeah in a niche

52:05

people yeah they have you know in

52:07

Germany has like it got I forget what

52:10

the term was they had this um some

52:11

really scary sort of authoritarian word

52:13

for like filtration centers or something

52:15

like that

52:16

you know the Chinese have have armies of

52:20

people I mean I did a story about

52:21

Facebook and how it was you know teaming

52:25

up with groups like the the Atlantic

52:27

Council here in the United States

52:28

remember a couple of years ago the

52:31

Senate called in Twitter Facebook and

52:33

Google to Washington and asked them to

52:37

devise strategies for preventing the

52:39

sowing of discord you know so they

52:41

basically what’s asking them to come up

52:44

with strategies for filtering out fake

52:47

news and then also certain kinds of

52:49

offensive content but you know that is a

52:53

stepping stone to what we’ve we’ve seen

52:55

in other countries I think you know and

52:57

I think it’s really worrisome but but

52:59

nobody seems to care on our side of the

53:01

aisle which is which is very strange

53:02

myself it’s

53:04

miles well it’s a it’s a censorship

53:06

issue you know and it’s it’s a

53:09

short-sighted thing as you said before

53:10

it’s people and it’s not even there’s

53:14

people that do pretty egregious things

53:16

from the left like the Covington school

53:18

thing when people were saying we got to

53:21

Doc’s these kids and give me their names

53:23

release their names these people are

53:25

still on Twitter to this day right

53:27

talking about kids that just happen to

53:28

have these make America great again hats

53:30

and I have a friend who used to live in

53:32

that area said like no you don’t get it

53:33

like there’s these stands these kids are

53:36

on the high school like field trip

53:38

there’s these stands we could buy these

53:39

hats everywhere these kids bought the

53:41

hats they’re they think they’re being

53:43

funny these guys play the music and then

53:45

get in their face you take a photo of it

53:47

it looks like this guy’s standing in

53:49

this Native American guy’s face but then

53:51

you see the whole video it’s no no the

53:53

Native American guy was playing his drum

53:54

walking towards him and then everybody

53:58

sorts probably it’s outrage cycle it’s

54:03

just so exhausting in a signaling

54:05

everyone’s signaling how virtuous they

54:07

are everyone’s signaling they’re on the

54:09

right side everyone’s signaling you know

54:11

I want names take these guys down like

54:14

you’re talking about sixteen year old

54:15

kids right it’s so fucking crazy and all

54:18

what is he Vic he’s guilty of smiling

54:20

was that what he guilt he’s guilty of

54:22

yeah no he’s got a mag a hat on I mean

54:24

yeah it’s crazy and the signaling thing

54:27

is crazy and you know for me the in the

54:30

in the news business a lot of people

54:32

that I know went into the when at the

54:35

journalism precisely because we didn’t

54:37

want to talk about our political views

54:39

like the whole point of the job is like

54:41

you know we’re just gonna tell you what

54:43

the facts are like not gonna tell you

54:44

about what I’m all about you can’t do

54:46

that anymore everything’s editorialize

54:48

everything is about editorializing and

54:51

signaling this is like what you’re

54:52

saying you’re telling people what your

54:55

stance is on things and that’s that’s

54:58

the opposite of what the job used to be

54:59

and this is again one of the things I’ve

55:01

been trying to focus on is that you know

55:04

what’s exactly what you’re talking about

55:05

people used to go to the news because

55:07

they wanted to find out what happened in

55:08

the world and they can’t do it anymore

55:10

because everything that you turn on

55:11

every kind of content is just

55:14

editorialized content where people are

55:16

sort of telling you

55:17

where they stand on things and you know

55:19

I don’t want to know that I wouldn’t

55:20

know what the information yes it’s so

55:22

hard how does this get resolved because

55:24

we’re dealing with essentially a two

55:26

decade old problem right I mean give or

55:28

take before that before the this the

55:32

social media and before the internet and

55:34

websites this justice wasn’t this wasn’t

55:37

what it was you could count on the New

55:38

York Times to give you an unbiased

55:41

version of what’s going on in the world

55:43

I don’t necessarily know that’s true

55:45

anymore no no other times has kind of

55:47

gone over to this model as well and

55:49

they’re super woke they’ve they’ve

55:50

struggled with it they they were that

55:52

there was an editorial and I wrote about

55:54

this in the in the book that the in the

55:56

summer of 2016 this guy Jim Ruttenberg

55:59

wrote the sort of this piece said Trump

56:00

is testing the norms of objectivity that

56:02

was the name of the piece and basically

56:05

what he said is Trump is so bad that we

56:06

have to look like rethink what

56:08

objectivity means we have to not only be

56:11

true but true to history’s judgment he

56:14

said and we have to have copious

56:16

coverage and a gret quote and aggressive

56:18

coverage so we’re gonna cover Trump a

56:19

lot we’re gonna cover him aggressively

56:21

and we’re gonna show you we’re gonna

56:23

take a stand on this issue rather than

56:26

just tell you what happened right so

56:28

rather than doing the traditional New

56:29

York Times thing of just the facts will

56:32

tell you sorted out right you figure out

56:34

we’re gonna tell you you know kind of

56:36

had it what your stance should be and

56:39

you know I think where does where do we

56:41

go from here how does it get resolved I

56:43

don’t know because you know unless the

56:46

the financial incentives change there

56:49

they’re not going to change you know the

56:51

business used to be back when you’re

56:54

talking about with New York Times and

56:55

then there were three networks and they

56:57

were all trying to get the whole

56:58

audience right so they were they were

57:00

they were doing that kind of neutral

57:02

fact-finding mission and it was working

57:04

for them financially now they can’t do

57:06

that because of the internet it’s it’s

57:07

you’re hunting for audience and little

57:09

groups yeah and they’re just giving you

57:11

hyper politicized stuff because that’s

57:12

the only way they can make money I don’t

57:14

know how we change it I don’t know how

57:15

we go you know we reverse it it’s it’s

57:18

it’s a problem it’s so interesting

57:20

though because I mean if you looked at

57:24

human interactions and if you looked at

57:27

you know dispensing news and information

57:30

and you follow trends from like the 30s

57:33

to the 40s to the 50s to the 60s to 70s

57:37

he’d be like oh well people are getting

57:38

better at this

57:39

people getting better whoa whoa what the

57:42

fuck is going on now everything is off

57:45

the rails yes two camps barking at each

57:47

other’s blatant misinformation on both

57:50

sides blatant distortions of the truth

57:52

blatant editorializing of facts and

57:55

you’re like hey what happened guys yeah

57:57

no it’s it’s it’s crazy and and not not

58:00

that the news didn’t have distortions

58:03

before like you think about you know we

58:07

covered up all sorts of thing you know

58:09

massacres in Cambodia a secret bombing

58:11

you know the use of Agent Orange like

58:14

it’s definitely I just didn’t appear in

58:15

the news in the degree it should now

58:18

though you turn on either MSNBC or Fox

58:22

and you’re right you’ll you’ll find

58:25

something that’s just totally full of

58:26

shit within five minutes usually and

58:28

that did not used to be the case you

58:32

know I think individual reporters used

58:35

to take a lot of pride in their work

58:36

you know and it’s different now now now

58:39

when you make mistakes in the business

58:41

you don’t you don’t get bounced out of

58:43

the business in the way you used to and

58:45

that’s that’s really strange like only

58:47

plagiarism plagiarism still bounces you

58:50

what plagiarism case is pretty yeah

58:52

that’s usually fatal right you’re not

58:54

gonna usually recover from that I mean

58:55

some people have kind of near in

58:57

problems with that and they they you

59:00

know I’m not gonna yes but but um but no

59:04

but you think about people who got

59:05

stories like w the WMD thing wrong right

59:08

not only do they not get bounced out of

59:10

the business they all got promoted you

59:12

know they’re like the editors of major

59:13

magazines now or you know and and so

59:16

what does that tell people in the

59:18

business well it tells you you know if

59:20

you screw up as long as you screw up

59:21

with a whole bunch of other people it’s

59:22

okay you know which is not good and and

59:25

we used to have a lot of pride about

59:26

that stuff in this business and that we

59:28

now we don’t anymore

59:29

you know and it it’s there isn’t the

59:33

shame connected with with screwing

59:34

something up that there used to be I

59:36

think there’s a real danger with in

59:38

terms of social media especially in not

59:42

complying to the Constitution

59:44

not complying to the First Amendment I

59:46

think there’s a real danger in that and

59:47

I don’t think we recognize that danger

59:49

because I don’t think we saw what social

59:51

media was until it was too late and then

59:53

by the time it was too late we had

59:55

already had these sort of standards in

59:58

place and the people that run it we’re

60:01

already getting away with enforcing

60:03

their own personal bias their

60:04

ideological bias and this is this is

60:08

that when you’re at this position where

60:10

you go well how does that ever get

60:11

resolved they’re not going to resolve it

60:13

on their own they’re still making ass

60:14

loads of money what he did is the

60:16

government resolved it well if Trump

60:18

steps in and resolves it looks like he’s

60:19

trying to resolve it to save his own

60:21

political career or right to into you

60:23

know to help his supporters it’s like

60:26

yeah no and and and no matter what if

60:29

Trump does anything about it

60:30

automatically everyone’s gonna be

60:32

against it right right you know even

60:33

even if it’s um even if there’s some

60:36

sense in there somewhere people won’t

60:37

won’t won’t get behind it but you know I

60:40

do anything about it it’s gonna be a

60:41

correction time there’s gonna be a gap

60:44

time where it’s gonna be like that where

60:46

it’s just gonna flood with people that

60:48

are just like with this newfound freedom

60:51

they’re just gonna go and shit up the

60:53

town you know but I mean but how would

60:55

you how would you fix it now like that’s

60:58

something because it’s not only about

60:59

rules it’s also about culture like

61:01

people have already they’re in this

61:02

pattern of you know not saying the wrong

61:06

thing right and they don’t

61:08

I think there’s we’re in a culture that

61:10

doesn’t even really know how to deal

61:13

with free speech if we actually had it

61:15

in the same way we used to you know no

61:16

one seems to have a forecast like no

61:19

one’s like well the storm is gonna last

61:20

about four years and then say there’s no

61:22

there’s no forecast no no one’s like wow

61:25

some fucking uncharted waters right

61:28

right but if you historically the

61:31

tendency is once you have a tool that

61:34

kind of can be used to keep people on

61:38

line and for enforce compliance of ideas

61:41

and then it always ends up worsening and

61:44

becoming more and more dictatorial and

61:46

authoritarian yes again you go back to

61:48

the Soviet example like once I started

61:50

you know really exercising a lot of

61:52

control over the press and literature

61:54

and things like that it didn’t get

61:56

better you

61:57

it just continued becoming more of a you

62:00

know an entrenched thing until so I

62:02

that’s what I worry about I think they

62:04

were headed more in that direction yeah

62:06

I think so too

62:07

I’m not really concerned with on both

62:10

sides when people dig their heels in

62:12

ideologically the other side just gets

62:14

even more convinced they’re correct oh

62:15

yeah yeah and there’s no cross dialogue

62:20

of any kind not anymore

62:23

there and even now I mean it’s it’s

62:26

interesting you had you had Bernie

62:29

Sanders on your show and Sanders all

62:31

it’s Sanders is one of the few

62:33

politicians left who has this idea that

62:36

we should talk to everybody like there’s

62:38

there are no illegitimate audiences out

62:39

there there know and like you know

62:41

that’s my job as a politician is to try

62:43

to convince you of things but that’s not

62:45

normal in the Democratic Party anymore I

62:47

mean Elizabeth Warren you know has made

62:51

a big thing about not going on Fox and

62:53

about having certain people taken taken

62:55

off Twitter and yeah and and I think

62:58

that’s increasingly the the sort of line

63:02

of thought in mainstream Democratic

63:04

Party thought now is is that we’re just

63:06

gonna rule out whatever whatever that is

63:09

47% of the electorate we’re just not

63:10

gonna talk to them anymore

63:11

right right yeah I I don’t know how

63:14

that’s that can possibly be a successful

63:16

political strategy then what and what

63:18

the point is you know I yeah no no it

63:21

doesn’t make any sense I was reading

63:24

something where people are going after

63:25

tells he gathered for being on Tucker

63:27

Carlson she’s like I’ll talk to

63:29

everybody and I’m glad she does and by

63:32

the way it’s like it’s hard for her

63:33

because she’s kind of an outside

63:34

candidate it’s hard for her to get time

63:36

on these other networks and so they want

63:39

to punish her for being on Tucker

63:40

Carlson’s and then they have this you

63:42

know reductionist view of who he is he’s

63:46

a white supremacist like to all she

63:48

supports white supremacists she goes on

63:49

a white supremacist show it okay is that

63:51

what he is really what he is and using

63:54

its knee a lot more than that there’s a

63:56

lot going on there right you guys are

63:58

fucking with life you know you’re

64:00

fucking with the reality of life and

64:03

you’re saying it in these sentences

64:05

you’re printing it out in these

64:06

paragraphs as

64:08

and you sending it out there

64:09

irresponsibly and it’s just really

64:11

strange that people don’t understand the

64:13

repercussions of that yeah that’s

64:15

something we talked about on our podcast

64:16

easily it’s all the time is that the

64:18

this it’s a catch-22 right like you you

64:22

don’t invite somebody like tulsi gabbard

64:24

on to CNN MSNBC where you they’re kind

64:28

of excluded from the same platform the

64:29

other politicians get so they go to

64:31

other platforms

64:32

all right and then you say oh you went

64:34

on that platform so you’re illegitimate

64:35

yes you know what do you want them to do

64:37

like you know what they do the same

64:39

thing with people who go on RT for

64:40

instance right oh well you’re helping

64:42

the Russians because you went on RT well

64:44

they’re that’s because you didn’t invite

64:46

them on any I mean yeah you their people

64:48

are gonna try to talk to anybody they

64:49

can to spread their ideas and that that

64:52

that kind of propaganda thing is is

64:54

pretty constant now in the use of the

64:57

term terms like what white supremacists

64:59

with Tucker Carlson I mean there there

65:01

are a million terms now that you use to

65:03

just kind of throw at people and what

65:05

they’re trying to do is create this ik

65:06

factor around people yeah right like

65:09

once you get someone gets a label

65:11

associated with them then nobody wants

65:14

to be associated with that person all

65:16

right Ryan they quickly kind of die out

65:18

of the public scene and that’s I think

65:20

that’s really bad too you know it’s it’s

65:22

like a it’s it’s just an

65:25

anti-intellectual way of dealing with

65:26

things and I and I think it’s it’s not

65:29

good it’s weird that it’s so prevalent

65:31

it’s weird that there’s so few

65:32

proponents of a more you know

65:36

open-minded way of thinking right yeah

65:38

and just to take the gap we had we had

65:42

Tulsa together on our show too and

65:44

immediately we got accused what do you

65:46

love Assad right do you want a bomb

65:49

Syrian sure you want to keep murder

65:50

Syrian children no I you know she’s a

65:52

presidential candidate and we want to

65:54

talk to want to hear what she has to say

65:55

but they immediately go to the

65:58

maximalist interpretation of everything

66:00

and then they’re what they’re basically

66:02

saying when they ask you those questions

66:04

are do you want to wear that label too

66:06

because she’s got it already

66:08

so if you have a run again you’re gonna

66:10

you’re you’re gonna have that label and

66:11

people they see that you know and and so

66:14

you know people who have who don’t have

66:16

a big following and who are worried

66:19

about their careers

66:21

in about you know the money and

66:23

advertisers and stuff like that they

66:24

they think twice about you know

66:26

interviewing that person the next time

66:27

yeah and here’s another way to get that

66:29

speech exactly and again I don’t know

66:32

how you get out of it you know and I

66:36

mean I’ve experienced some blowback I

66:39

guess but it doesn’t hasn’t worked yet

66:42

right you know I mean it’s not real it’s

66:45

just like it’s just words like okay well

66:48

but yeah and and but you’re handling it

66:50

the right way back I think people your

66:53

audience is rewarding you for for not

66:56

not bowing to it

66:58

you know and I think that more people if

67:01

they took that example and said I’m not

67:02

gonna listen to what the the pack says

67:05

about this I’m not gonna be afraid of

67:06

being called a name you know fuck that

67:09

I’m gonna talk to you I want to talk to

67:11

and I’m gonna gonna head you know

67:13

explore whatever ideas I want to explore

67:15

then the this kind of stuff wouldn’t be

67:18

as effective so yeah so easy to do to

67:22

people it’s so easy for them to deep

67:23

platform people yes always and shadow

67:26

banning and all this other weird shit

67:27

that’s going on yeah they’re channeling

67:30

people and and pushing people into these

67:34

areas of their platforms that makes them

67:38

less accessible and I know where it

67:40

comes from you know I was I was young

67:42

and politically active once you know you

67:44

you want to change the world you want to

67:46

make it a better place so you’re in

67:48

college and you don’t have any power you

67:50

don’t have any way to input make

67:54

something into legislation you know what

67:56

I mean yeah so what do you do you you

67:59

know social media gives you the illusion

68:01

that you’re having an impact in the

68:03

world by you know maybe getting somebody

68:05

deep platformed or taking off Twitter or

68:07

something like that it feels like it’s

68:08

political action that yeah but it’s not

68:11

you know what I mean it’s it’s it’s

68:12

something that they that is open to

68:14

people to do but it’s not the same as

68:18

you know getting 60 Congress 60 members

68:21

of the Senate to to raise taxes on a

68:24

corporation that’s been evading them for

68:26

20 years you know what I mean like

68:27

that’s that’s real action this you know

68:31

getting some random person taken off the

68:33

internet is just not change

68:34

you know but but people feel like it is

68:36

and they wanna they want to do the right

68:38

thing so I get it but no it’s it’s not

68:41

you know put real political action I

68:43

don’t think no it’s fucking gross yeah

68:49

and it just lead it’s there’s so much of

68:52

it on there’s so little logic also and

68:56

you this must be a personal thing for

68:59

you but it’s this is the unfunniest time

69:01

in American history

69:03

like yes no because you rewarded for for

69:07

stepping outside the box that’s true in

69:09

a big way mm-hmm like yeah you mean Dave

69:12

Chappelle gets attacked but guess what

69:14

he also gets rewarded in a huge way run

69:17

he goes on stage now people go ape shit

69:20

that’s true and part of the reason why

69:22

they go fucking bonkers is because they

69:24

know that this guy doesn’t give a fuck

69:26

and he’s one of the rare ones who

69:28

doesn’t give a fuck so when he goes up

69:29

there you know if he thinks something

69:32

crazy about whatever it is whatever

69:34

protected group or whatever idea that

69:37

he’s not supposed to explore that’s not

69:39

gonna stop him at all he’s gonna tell

69:40

you exactly what he thinks about those

69:42

things regardless of all this woke

69:44

blowback he’s not he doesn’t care right

69:46

so because of that he’s rewarded even

69:48

more and same thing with Bill burr

69:50

same thing with a lot of comics I

69:51

experienced it with my own jokes sure

69:53

did more controversial bits getting

69:55

people more fired up now they love it

69:57

because everyone’s smothered their

70:00

smothered by human resources and

70:02

smothered by office politics and you’re

70:04

smothered by social discourse

70:07

restrictions and he’s don’t feel like

70:10

you can express yourself any more this

70:12

is true and and and all people also

70:13

don’t have a they feel like they’re

70:15

being watched all the time yeah things

70:17

like that kind of can’t let it all hang

70:19

out anywhere right and and so that’s

70:21

yeah they they do feel incredibly like

70:24

repressed and under the gun yeah I think

70:26

that that’s that’s true yeah I just I

70:29

feel like it I mean I’m not a comic but

70:31

if but I just imagine it must be a more

70:34

challenging environment it’s more

70:35

challenging but more rewarding to my

70:37

friend ari said it best he said this is

70:39

a great time for comedy because comedies

70:41

dangerous again right that’s true yeah

70:43

that’s true yeah it’s kind of goes back

70:44

to like a Lenny Bruce era right

70:46

when you know you could kind of

70:48

completely freak people out with a

70:50

couple of saying a couple of sure yeah

70:53

for good or bad or prior yeah well you

70:56

like you saw it with like louis c.k

70:58

right louis ck’s under the microscope

71:00

now that joke that he made about

71:02

parkland is absolutely a louis c.k joke

71:06

if you followed him throughout his

71:08

career what was the joke again i’m sorry

71:10

the joke was why am i listening to these

71:12

parklands survivors why are you

71:13

interesting cuz you pushed some fat kid

71:16

in the way like see you’re laughing

71:18

right like that is a louis c.k joke he’s

71:23

saying something fucked up you’re not

71:24

supposed to say that is throughout his

71:26

goddamn career he’s done that that’s

71:28

always done but after the you know

71:32

jerking off in front of women all that

71:33

stuff and him coming out in admitting it

71:35

and then taking a bunch of time off now

71:37

he’s a target right now he does

71:38

something like that and they’re like oh

71:40

he’s all right now like no this is what

71:42

he’s always done right he’s always

71:44

taking this sort of contrarian outside

71:47

the box fucked up but hilarious take on

71:51

things and that bit

71:52

unfortunately because it was released by

71:54

someone who made a youtube video of it

71:56

he didn’t get a chance to he was gone

71:58

for ten months and he had only done a

71:59

couple sets when he was fleshing these

72:01

ideas out i guarantee you he would have

72:03

turned that idea into a brilliant bit

72:04

but he never got the chance because it

72:06

was just it was set out there in the

72:08

wild when it was a baby he was mauled

72:10

down by wolves it needed to be heard

72:13

right yeah i mean that’s what a bit of

72:15

these bits they they grow and they

72:17

develop and that was a controversial

72:19

idea that we’re supposed to think that

72:21

someone’s interesting just because they

72:22

survived a tragedy and his take is like

72:24

no no no no you’re not interesting right

72:27

you’re fucking boring you’re annoying

72:28

get off my get off my TV and a lot of us

72:31

have felt that way sure he just the way

72:34

he said it was easy to take and put in

72:37

you know out of context put it in quotes

72:39

and turn him into an asshole well yeah

72:42

but that’s what comedy is right it’s

72:44

it’s taking what people the the thoughts

72:46

that everybody has and vocalizing that

72:49

the end that forbidden thing in a way

72:51

that people can kind of you know come

72:54

together over right i mean i think that

72:56

was a lot a lot of what richard pryor

72:57

schemer was about like he took a lot of

72:59

the sort

73:00

comfortable race problems right and he

73:05

just kind of put them out there and both

73:07

white people and black people laughed at

73:09

it yeah right like together you know and

73:11

that that was what was good about it yes

73:12

but if you can’t if if people are afraid

73:17

to vocalize those things that they think

73:18

it’s gonna you know ruin their career is

73:20

you know that that makes it more

73:22

interesting right it’s more hype more

73:24

high stakes but if you can navigate

73:25

those waters and get to the promised

73:28

land of the punchline it’s even more

73:29

rewarding right but you just have to

73:31

explain yourself better you have to have

73:33

better points you have to have you have

73:35

to have a better structure to your

73:38

material where you while the the people

73:41

who may find your idea objectionable

73:44

they you you coax them like hold my hand

73:48

I’m gonna take you through the woods

73:50

we’re gonna be okay right follow me and

73:53

boom isn’t that funny

73:55

right right right you have to navigate

73:56

it skillfully and you have to navigate

73:58

it thoughtfully and you have to really

74:01

have a point you can’t have a half-assed

74:03

point but you can’t have a situation

74:06

where it’s fatal to be off by a little

74:08

bit I know like there was a writer that

74:11

I loved growing up a Soviet writer named

74:13

Isaac Babel Stalin ended up shooting him

74:17

but he gave a speech about I think it

74:20

was in 1936 you know to to a Soviet

74:23

writers collective and he said you know

74:25

people say that we don’t have as much

74:27

freedom as we used to but actually all

74:29

of all that the you know the the

74:31

Communist Party is done is Britta’s

74:33

prevented us from writing badly the only

74:35

thing that’s outlawed now is writing

74:36

badly right and everybody laughed but he

74:39

was actually saying something pretty

74:41

serious which is that you can’t write

74:42

well unless you can you know screw up

74:44

too you know like on the way to to being

74:48

creative in a good way you have to miss

74:50

yes you know and if missing is not

74:52

allowed and there’s high punishment for

74:55

missing you’re not going to get art yeah

74:57

you’re not gonna get revolution you’re

74:59

not gonna get all these things well and

75:01

in comedy it’s particularly important

75:03

because you have to work it out in front

75:04

of people absolutely yeah no I used to

75:06

sit at a comedy club in

75:08

hatton when I was like in college that

75:11

you know they would try out their

75:13

material like on a Wednesday right you

75:16

know early and that was always the most

75:18

interesting time for me well like

75:19

they’re trying south stuff out and a lot

75:21

of it wasn’t so good but you know it was

75:23

interesting right and you just can’t

75:26

have a situation where people feel like

75:28

you know one wrong word is gonna ruin

75:30

their career yeah you know yeah I don’t

75:32

know but there’s also people that are

75:34

wolves and they’re trying to take out

75:36

that little baby joke wandering through

75:38

the woods they they want that feeling of

75:41

being able to take someone down right

75:44

and that that’s you know that’s you’re

75:45

getting that now too which is just and

75:47

so now because that there’s like yonder

75:49

bags at the improv where I’m performing

75:51

tonight they usually on their bags you

75:53

have to put yourself on the bag when you

75:54

go in there so you can’t record things

75:56

yonder bag yes it’s a company called

75:58

yonder it’s just so strange it’s like

76:01

all the shows I did with Chappelle he

76:03

uses yonder bags and an idea is to

76:06

prevent people from from filming and

76:08

recording and you know and then

76:10

eventually putting your stuff out there

76:11

uh-huh

76:12

well you know look I’m kind of all for

76:15

that I mean I’ve seen this with

76:17

politicians on the campaign trail like

76:19

they are so tight now in ways that they

76:21

used to not be well you saw the Donald

76:23

Trump thing Donald Trump jr. where Trump

76:26

jr. what they didn’t want him to do they

76:28

wanted him to do a Q&A and he didn’t

76:30

want to do it so they booed him the

76:32

right wing people uh-huh bullying him

76:34

they’re yelling out Q&A Q&A because they

76:37

want to be able to talk oh I see it’ll

76:39

say something to him and these are

76:40

people that were like far-right

76:42

far-right people they just didn’t think

76:45

he was being right enough or he was

76:46

playing the game wrong or he wasn’t

76:47

wasn’t letting them complain to him

76:49

right right yeah yeah now that’s bad and

76:52

and and politicians are aware of that

76:56

now and they’re they’re constantly aware

76:57

that they’re on film everywhere and so

77:00

they’re you know a thousand percent less

77:02

interesting because yeah they’re there I

77:04

mean I remember covering campaign in

77:07

2004 and I was I saw Dennis Kucinich

77:10

give a speech somewhere and he was going

77:13

from I think Maine to New Hampshire and

77:16

I said can I get a ride back to New

77:17

Hampshire he’s like yeah sure so you

77:18

know it takes me on the

77:20

and he like takes his shoes off he’s

77:22

like cracking jokes and everything and

77:24

like eating udon noodles or something

77:26

political candidates would not do that

77:28

now like they’d be afraid to be off the

77:30

record with you right you know right

77:32

right and and they’re afraid to be

77:33

around people and just behave like

77:35

people you know which is not good I

77:38

don’t think it’s the weirdest time ever

77:41

to be a politician because it’s it’s

77:42

basically you’ve got this one guy who

77:45

made it through being hugely flawed

77:49

mm-hmm and just going ah

77:51

the fucking locker room talk and it was

77:53

like well yeah it is locker room talk

77:54

yes and then it works and he gets

77:56

through and he wins and so you’ve got

77:58

him who seems like he’s so greasy like

78:01

nothing sticks to him and then you have

78:04

everyone else who’s terrified of any

78:06

slight misstep yeah totally and and you

78:10

can’t replicate the way Trump does this

78:12

you know Trump Trump is he was born this

78:14

way there’s like a thing going on in his

78:16

head like he is you know pathologically

78:19

driven to behave in a certain way and

78:20

he’s not gonna be cowed by the way you

78:24

know people are but socially because he

78:26

just doesn’t think that way

78:27

no no he’s and but that’s no one else is

78:29

gonna behave like that what do you think

78:31

about him and speed what do you think I

78:34

do all that

78:34

does he take speed you mean yeah so did

78:37

you ever see his speech after Super

78:40

Tuesday yeah that’s the one we was

78:43

slurry it was that wasn’t always ramped

78:46

up he was very I just say watch that

78:50

speech you know we’re not supposed to

78:51

draw conclusions about but you know what

78:54

what my big lament pharmaceutically with

78:55

somebody but I would say just watched on

78:57

Donald Trump’s performance after the

78:59

results of the Super Tuesday roll in in

79:02

2016 let’s hear some of that firstly

79:06

chris Christie is hilarious she’s

79:09

talking about wages I’ve been poor and

79:11

everything’s poor and everything’s doing

79:13

badly but we’re gonna make it she’s been

79:14

there for so long I mean if she hasn’t

79:17

straighten it out by now she’s not gonna

79:19

straighten it out in the next four years

79:21

it’s just gonna become worse and worse

79:22

she wants to make America whole again

79:24

and I’m trying to find what is

79:26

yeah I mean it’s just I already go back

79:30

and look but yeah but he got he went on

79:32

and on also that the Christie factor was

79:34

really funny with that because he was

79:35

him he’s just sitting back there going

79:37

what am i doing what am i doing with my

79:39

life

79:40

look at his face literally you can see

79:42

his brain wander well how the fuck did

79:44

this happened I was gonna be the man

79:46

like I was the goddamn president it was

79:50

gonna happen for me I could see it

79:52

happening I saw him in uh in Ames Iowa

79:56

basically standing alone in the park

79:58

waiting for people to try to shake his

80:00

hand you know yeah it was pretty bad

80:01

like you see that and but you do you

80:03

have a theory about Trump and speed yeah

80:05

yeah yeah I think he’s on some stuff

80:07

mm-hmm I think first of all I know so

80:09

many journalists that are on speed I

80:12

know so many people that are on adderall

80:13

and it’s very effective it gives you

80:16

confidence it gives you a delusional

80:18

perspective

80:19

well you get a delusional state of

80:21

confidence mm-hmm it makes people think

80:22

they can do anything it’s basically a

80:24

low-level meth it’s very similar to

80:27

methamphetamine chemically sure and

80:29

people are in it yeah it is tell me what

80:31

it’s like because I haven’t done it yeah

80:33

I mean I’ve done speed to I mean you

80:35

know all those all those drugs are yeah

80:37

they’re like baby baby speed basically

80:39

yeah and you’re absolutely right I think

80:42

people who it’s not good for a writer

80:44

because writing is one of these things

80:47

where one of the most important things

80:49

is being able to step back and and ask

80:52

am I really my full of shit here is you

80:54

know are my jokes as funny as I think

80:55

they are like right if once that

80:57

mechanism starts to go wrong you know

81:01

you’re really lost yes

81:02

writer right because you’re just you’re

81:03

not in front of an audience you’re with

81:05

yourself in front of a computer so I

81:08

don’t think I don’t think speed is a

81:10

great drug I mean you get a lot of stuff

81:12

done so that’s that’s good but but ya

81:16

know I I think there’s a lot of people

81:18

who are on it now and also a lot of us

81:20

because kids come up through school and

81:23

they’re on it just you know and they

81:25

they get used to it so I you know I have

81:27

kids I wouldn’t dream of giving giving

81:29

them any of those drugs you know I think

81:31

it’s crazy yeah I do – did you see you

81:33

saw the I’m sure you saw the sudafed

81:34

picture – right no what was that Trump

81:37

was sitting in his office eating a

81:39

was that famous photo where he’s like I

81:41

love Hispanics where he’s eating a taco

81:43

bowl at Trump Tower and behind him

81:46

there’s an open drawer and in that open

81:47

drawer as boxes of sudafed and sudafed

81:51

sort of yeah I mean you it gives you a

81:54

low-level buzz and the I mean this is

81:59

why I used to have to go to CVS to buy

82:02

this stuff used to have to give you

82:03

drivers I guess you still do they have

82:05

to give your driver’s license because

82:06

they want to make sure you’re not

82:07

cooking meth right lying like 10 boxes

82:09

of it at a time and cooking up a batch

82:11

yeah if you’re like in a you know holler

82:13

in Kentucky and you go in and get 20 20

82:16

boxes of sudafed and pretty much people

82:18

know what you’re doing there

82:19

yeah that’s really funny did he so he

82:21

had a bunch of sudafed oh yes yeah in

82:23

his box and you know there was that one

82:26

reporter that was that guy’s name again

82:29

who had a hole he wrote a series of

82:33

tweets which he eventually wound up

82:34

taking down by the way Jamie I can’t

82:35

find those fucking tweets he wrote a

82:39

series of tweets that there was a very

82:40

specific Duane Reade pharmacy where

82:42

Trump got amphetamines for something

82:46

that was in quotes called metabolic

82:48

disorder Kurt I can Walled fun Kurt yeah

82:51

1982 Trump started taking amphetamine

82:53

derivatives abused them only supposed to

82:55

take two for 25 days stayed on it for

82:57

eight years really now is he full of

82:59

shit

83:00

so yeah Kurt I can Walt isn’t

83:03

interesting because he’s written some

83:05

really good books about finance he wrote

83:09

a book about Enron he wrote a book about

83:12

Prudential it was really really good

83:15

then when I was starting out writing

83:17

with Wall Street I was like wow these

83:18

books are really incredibly well

83:19

researched but he had some stuff in the

83:23

in 2016 where like that’s an example of

83:28

something as a reporter I see that

83:30

Michael where’s that coming from

83:31

you know and because you in journalism

83:35

you can’t really accuse somebody of

83:37

certain things unless it’s backed up to

83:39

the enth degree so right he had a couple

83:41

of things that I thought I you know

83:42

would be concerned about

83:43

he took a leap I don’t know I mean look

83:46

that’s what I’m Sam stepped outside of

83:47

the journalistic boundaries of what you

83:50

can absolutely prove and not prove

83:53

and took a leap and that’s why I think

83:54

he took down the duane reade pharmacy he

83:56

didn’t take it down oh it’s still there

83:58

as well there wasn’t okay there it is

84:00

there was another thing about a well

84:03

he’s got the milligrams per day Wow

84:05

where’s this from I don’t know it

84:08

doesn’t show it or anything but I

84:10

believe he eats drug use a copy of it

84:11

from someone or talk to the doctor drug

84:14

was diethyl propane 75 milligrams a day

84:16

prescription filled Duane Reade on 57th

84:19

Street Manhattan not that I know things

84:20

so you know get the doctor’s name to dr.

84:24

Joseph greenberg I countered with

84:27

medical records a white house admitted

84:30

to me only a short time for diet that he

84:32

took it when he was not located and

84:34

that’s fun he says I countered with

84:36

medical records they cut me off Wow yeah

84:40

I mean you know one thing I will say is

84:42

that when you’re when you’re covering

84:43

stories sometimes you hear things and

84:46

and you know they’re pretty solid but

84:48

you put you it’s not quite reportable

84:50

because the person won’t put their name

84:51

on it

84:52

or you know you’re not a hundred percent

84:55

sure that the document is a real

84:56

document maybe it’s a photocopy and that

84:59

that can be very very tough for

85:00

reporters cuz they know something’s true

85:02

but they can’t write they can’t and and

85:05

social media has eliminated a barrier

85:07

that we used to have we used to have to

85:09

go through editors and fact checkers and

85:11

now you know you’re on Twitter or you

85:13

can just kind of you know right right or

85:15

you can hint at something you know and I

85:18

think that’s that’s something you don’t

85:19

want to get into as a reporter too much

85:21

you know yeah that’s a weird use of

85:23

social media right it’s like sort of a

85:25

slippery escape from journalistic rules

85:29

yeah exactly yeah you know or you can

85:32

you can insinuate that somebody did X Y

85:35

& Z or you can you can use terms that

85:38

are a little bit sloppy like you know

85:41

again but it seems like they did admit

85:42

that he took that stuff forth ah yes so

85:44

if you have the the white house

85:46

you know spokesperson saying that they

85:47

he took it for a short time for a diet

85:49

then you find that’s a reportable story

85:50

right yeah yeah well I think when people

85:53

get into that shit it’s very hard for

85:55

them to get out of that shit mm-hmm

85:57

that’s a the the speed train and I’ve

85:59

seen many people hop on it it’s got a

86:01

lot of stops nobody seems to get off

86:04

yeah not with

86:06

keep intact right yeah no it’s uh that’s

86:08

that’s not a good old he’s so old he

86:12

doesn’t exercise he eats fast food and

86:14

he gets so much fucking energy I and I

86:16

mean people want to think he’s this

86:17

super person you know but maybe he’s on

86:20

speed maybe yeah I mean he’s just gonna

86:23

collapse turn over and collapse one not

86:25

can go a lot longer on speed than people

86:28

think maybe if you just do it the right

86:30

way but isn’t that kind of the way

86:31

history always works it’s like again not

86:34

to go back to the Russian thing but all

86:36

the various terrible leaders of Russia

86:38

like they all died of natural causes

86:40

when they were 85 right whereas you know

86:42

in a country where people get murdered

86:43

and die of industrial accidents and bad

86:45

health when they’re you know 30 all the

86:47

time right but the worst people in the

86:49

country make it to very old age and you

86:52

know and die and in their alcoholics and

86:55

maybe that’s the thing right maybe maybe

86:56

you know he has the worst diet in the

87:00

world and maybe he’s on speed and maybe

87:02

it’s also your perception of how you

87:05

interface with the world maybe because

87:07

he’s not this introspective guy that’s

87:09

really worried about how people see him

87:10

and feel about him maybe he doesn’t feel

87:12

you know whatever whether it’s

87:14

sociopathy or whatever it is he doesn’t

87:16

feel the bad feelings they don’t get in

87:19

there yeah and this he doesn’t have the

87:21

the stress impact right right and that’s

87:23

the thing about speed apparently it

87:25

because of the fact that it makes you

87:27

feel delusional and it makes you feel

87:29

like you’re the fucking man like don’t

87:31

worry about what other people think in

87:32

losers who cares right right yeah you

87:37

know that was why not by greenly why not

87:39

by greenland yeah that came out of

87:41

what’s wrong with that we bought Alaska

87:43

well we based it Alaska yeah yeah we

87:45

were supposed to give it back but we we

87:47

didn’t it seems like Greenland would be

87:48

a good place to scoop up especially as

87:50

things get warmer right yeah exactly and

87:52

the fuckin tweet that he made when he

87:54

put the Trump Tower I promise not to do

87:56

this and have a giant Trump Tower in the

87:58

middle of Greenland I was laughing my

88:00

ass off like love or hate that is

88:03

hilarious his trolling skills are

88:05

top-notch very good they’re they’re

88:07

fantastic oh he knows how to fuck with

88:09

people when he starts calling people

88:10

crazy or gives him a nickname like it’s

88:12

so good because like it sticks yes I

88:17

mean part of me wants

88:19

see a trump button race next year just

88:22

for that reason this is because the the

88:25

abuse will be on below I mean nothing

88:27

I’m encouraging that necessarily but

88:29

this is a spectacle it’s gonna be

88:31

unbelievable you can tell that he he is

88:33

salivating at the idea of by muscleman

88:35

Biden to me is like having a flashlight

88:39

with a dying battery and going for a

88:41

long hike in the woods is not going to

88:45

work out it’s not gonna make it

88:48

yeah no he’s he’s so faded he you know

88:52

he has his moments on the campaign trail

88:55

where he’ll be speaking and you know

88:57

these guys do the same speech over and

88:59

over again so they can kind of do it on

89:01

cruise control but every now and then

89:03

he’ll he’ll stop in the middle of it and

89:05

you this look of terror comes over like

89:07

where am i yeah you know what town am I

89:10

in you know like he he confused he

89:13

thought he was in Vermont when he was in

89:15

New Hampshire I’m sorry

89:16

yeah he was he got those states confused

89:19

like what’s not to love about Vermont he

89:21

was in New Hampshire you know that that

89:24

can happen obviously but it happens to

89:26

him a lot but he’s clearly old yeah you

89:30

know I mean he’s not much older than

89:31

Trump right but he needs to get on the

89:34

same pills yeah yeah actually that would

89:36

be a thing we should get a GoFundMe to

89:38

buy it imagine yeah they just filled him

89:40

up with steroids and and just jacked him

89:43

up with them feta means had it going

89:45

after Trump I really think he needs

89:49

something like that he whatever he’s

89:50

doing on the natch it’s not working

89:52

right yeah yeah he’s too tired needs a

89:54

little bit of enhancement it’s not gonna

89:56

work if he if he gets the nomination the

89:58

Democrats are fucked I just I don’t see

90:00

I don’t see him I don’t see him

90:03

withstanding the barrage that Trump was

90:05

gonna throw at him Trump’s gonna take

90:07

him out like Tyson took out Marvis

90:09

Fraser just got was a yeah it was a bomb

90:12

that was a bad fight it’s gonna be that

90:13

kind of fight right bomb on him yeah

90:16

doesn’t have a chance

90:17

he can’t stand with that guy he doesn’t

90:19

have a cheese to he’s also too impressed

90:22

with himself

90:23

yes he’s too used to people deferring

90:26

yes like he thinks like the things he

90:28

says makes sense and are cool and are

90:31

profound when they’re just

90:33

land right he’s just serving bad

90:35

meatloaf and he’s like tada and you’re

90:38

like no this is bad meatloaf yeah that’s

90:40

how he got to be vice president by being

90:42

just bland enough yes right to get

90:46

whatever constituency Obama was trying

90:48

to get but you saw that exchange when he

90:50

called Trump an existential threat

90:51

earlier this year and Trump basically he

90:55

just went off on him you know Joe Joe’s

90:57

a dummy he’s not the guy he used to be

90:59

like you know yeah that’s gonna be

91:01

everyday yep you know every minute of

91:04

every day and then other people gonna

91:05

chime in because they love it people

91:07

love piling on

91:08

oh yeah and his fans oh my god he’s the

91:11

asshole king where people never had a

91:13

representative before there’s a lot of

91:15

assholes out there like that where’s my

91:16

guy Brian finally BAM look at this area

91:19

the asshole made it to the White House

91:22

holy shit I can be an asshole now the

91:24

president’s an asshole he wants me to be

91:26

an asshole

91:29

oh yeah totally

91:32

oh that’s mean that that’s gonna wear on

91:34

a guy I mean if you’ve been doing one of

91:36

trumps rallies no chance yeah now I

91:38

can’t wear a rubber nose and fucking

91:40

I’ve covered it and what they’re like

91:42

they’re unbelievable first of all the

91:44

the the t-shirts are amazing you know it

91:48

like Trump 2020 fuck your feelings you

91:51

know what I mean like Trump is the

91:53

Punisher you know it’s like the Punisher

91:55

skull with the thing like it’s it’s it’s

91:58

it’s amazing and in the crowds it’s like

92:01

totally out of idiocracy yeah is there a

92:03

fucking Punisher skull with a Trump wig

92:06

on it yeah yeah oh my goodness I’m gonna

92:08

have to get one of those I mean he’s

92:09

like there’s oh it’s a red white and

92:25

blue American flag skull Punishers style

92:28

with a Trump Trump wig on it so I saw

92:30

that I need that sure son it wasn’t the

92:33

one red white and blue one it was the

92:34

blood it was a moment to black and I saw

92:37

that on my god I’m like an

92:39

eight-year-old kid

92:41

all right it was like a mother with her

92:43

little kids and the Trenton Trump

92:45

Punisher skull but do they

92:46

that shirt on Amazon can finally show

92:48

I’m sure being sold everywhere I mean

92:58

the the the merch is he is he’s the most

93:01

t-shirt able president history I mean

93:03

Trump 2020 grabbed him by the pussy

93:06

again boy I mean that they they like

93:10

embrace that shit it the the trolling

93:13

aspect of all of it is like the fun part

93:17

for his crowd so you are what they get

93:19

off on is how how freaked out you know

93:23

quote-unquote liberal audiences yeah by

93:25

their appearance their attitude and

93:26

everything and they lean into it you

93:28

know that I mean which is interesting

93:31

because you know that kind of like group

93:34

camaraderie thing that you don’t really

93:36

find that on and then a campaign trail

93:38

on the Democratic side it’s different I

93:39

mean it’s a different vibe entirely but

93:41

yeah it’s crazy

93:42

well it’s dumb and that’s the thing that

93:44

he’s sort of like captured is this place

93:47

where you can be dumb like it’s fun to

93:50

be dumb and say grab her by the pussy

93:52

like everybody knows that’s kind of a

93:53

dumb thing to say public of course but

93:55

you can say it there because he said it

93:57

yay you know build that wall build that

94:00

wall yeah right like it’s like it’s this

94:02

chance to like shut off any possibility

94:06

of getting over like 70 rpm like you

94:09

we’re gonna cut this bitch off at 70

94:11

there’s no high function here cut it off

94:13

at 70 and just let it rip right yeah no

94:16

totally totally and and it’s funny the

94:21

way you say that they’ll never buddy

94:23

knows it’s a dumb thing to say right

94:24

like I would talk to people at the

94:26

crowds and you know I’ll talk like a 65

94:29

year old grandmother and you say do you

94:32

agree with everything in Trump says and

94:34

like almost the last they all say well I

94:36

wish he hadn’t said this particular

94:37

thing right but they’re all they’re

94:39

chanting you know what I mean like

94:41

they’re all into it and all in the

94:43

crowds are they’re so huge like I was in

94:45

Cincinnati and I was late to one of his

94:48

events and I made the mistake that I

94:49

couldn’t Drive in because they blocked

94:51

off all the bridges if you’ve never been

94:53

there right you know I was in the

94:54

Kentucky side so I had to walk like

94:56

three miles away and like walk over a

94:58

bridge and I thought I was going

95:00

the only person there and it was like

95:02

something out of a sci-fi movie was just

95:03

like a line of Magha hats like extending

95:06

over a bridge all the way into Kentucky

95:08

like a mile down a road I mean they had

95:10

eternally thousands of people to get

95:12

into this event it was it’s incredible

95:14

and that people did see it was like 17

95:16

or 18 thousand it was the you know they

95:20

freaked out what they what arena that is

95:22

it’s the it’s the indoor one he’s the

95:25

only one that can pull those kind of

95:27

crowds here oh yeah

95:28

there’s no one no one can do that you

95:31

know Bernie and Warren have had big

95:34

crowds Bernie had a he had a 25,000 that

95:37

person crowd in Queens a couple of weeks

95:39

ago you’ll see crowds that big but

95:42

Trump’s crowds are just dating back to

95:44

2016 they’re just consistently huge

95:47

every everywhere and and again this gets

95:51

back to what I was saying before all the

95:53

reporters saw this and they all saw that

95:55

Hillary was having real trouble getting

95:57

four and five thousand people into her

95:59

events and so we all you know we were

96:01

all talking to each other like that’s

96:02

gotta be in it a thing that’s gonna you

96:04

know play a role in the election

96:06

eventually but nobody kind of brought it

96:08

up or they they explained it away well I

96:10

think they felt like if you discussed it

96:12

and brought it up that somehow or

96:14

another you got you were contributing to

96:15

Trump being Trump winning right but

96:20

that’s a that’s a fallacious way to look

96:22

at it yeah because

96:24

covering up the reality of the situation

96:26

I think created a false sense of

96:27

security for Democrats and they thought

96:30

they were gonna win by a landslide yeah

96:31

that’s what everybody was saying but it

96:33

wasn’t true I mean the overseer there

96:34

were serious red flags throughout the

96:37

campaign for Hillary and people I think

96:39

were too afraid to to bring up a lot of

96:41

this stuff because they didn’t want to

96:43

be seen it’s helping Trump but that’s

96:44

not what the business is about we’re not

96:46

supposed to be you know helping back

96:48

both factors don’t have you know

96:50

political indications we’re just

96:52

supposed to tell you what we see how do

96:53

you get journalism back on track is it

96:55

possible at this point I mean it is a

96:57

lost art is it gonna be like calligraphy

96:59

I mean I think yeah yeah exactly

97:04

Japanese calligraphy you have to pass it

97:06

down through masters yeah maybe that’s

97:09

that’s gonna be able to adjourn

97:10

Elizabeth like I mean

97:11

there’s two things that could happen one

97:13

is that like if you created something

97:16

like neither side news right now right

97:18

and just like a that’s a great name

97:20

yeah like a network where it was a bunch

97:22

of people who just kind of did the job

97:24

without the editorializing I think it

97:27

would have it would probably have a lot

97:29

of followers right away it would make

97:31

money and nobody has clued into that yet

97:33

like if if some canny entrepreneur were

97:35

to do that and that were to bring back

97:37

the business that or you know journalism

97:39

has always been kind of quasi subsidized

97:41

in this country you know going back to

97:43

the Pony Express newspapers were carried

97:45

free across to the west right the US

97:47

Postal Service said that the original

97:49

19th the Communications Act in 1934 the

97:53

idea was you know we you could lease the

97:55

public airwaves but you had to do

97:56

something in the public interest so you

97:59

you could make money doing sports and

98:01

entertainment but you could take a loss

98:03

on news and so it was kind of quasi

98:06

subsidized in that way but that doesn’t

98:08

exist anymore there’s no subsidy really

98:09

for news anymore I’m not a story sure I

98:11

agree with that

98:12

that being the way to go but there has

98:15

to be something because right now the

98:16

financial pressure to be bad is just too

98:19

it’s too great you know like there’s no

98:21

if there’s no way to I started going on

98:24

this but I came when I came from the

98:25

business when the money started getting

98:28

tighter the first thing they got rid of

98:30

were the long-form investigative

98:31

reporters like you couldn’t just hire

98:34

somebody to work on a story for three

98:35

months anymore because he needed them to

98:37

do content all the time then they got

98:39

rid of the fact checkers you know which

98:41

had another serious problem you know and

98:43

and so now the money’s so tight that he

98:46

just had these people doing clickbait

98:48

all the time and they’re not doing real

98:50

reporting and so they they have to fix

98:52

the money problem I don’t know how they

98:53

would do that how much has it changed

98:54

recently because like when that piece of

98:57

the stuff that you wrote about the

98:59

banking crisis was my favorite coverage

99:01

of it and the the most relatable and

99:03

understandable and the way you spelled

99:05

everything out could you do that today

99:08

yeah but I think it would be harder

99:11

because that’s not that long it’s it

99:13

really isn’t it’s only you know that was

99:15

I really stopped doing that and like

99:17

2014 or so five years out but the the

99:22

big differences social media has had a

99:24

huge impact on a ten

99:25

and span so you know I was writing like

99:28

7,000 word articles about credit default

99:32

swaps and stuff like that I was trying

99:33

really hard to make it interesting for

99:35

people you know you use jokes and yeah

99:37

humor and stuff like that but now people

99:39

would not have the energy to really

99:42

fight through that you’d have to make it

99:43

shorter

99:45

even TV you know they people you don’t

99:48

see that kind of reporting that in-depth

99:50

you know kind of process reporting where

99:53

you’re teaching people something because

99:56

people just tune out right away that

99:57

they need just a quick hit a headline

100:00

and a couple of facts so yeah there’s a

100:03

big problem with audience right which

100:05

we’ve trained audiences to consume the

100:07

news differently and all they really

100:09

want to get is a take now you know it’s

100:11

like the everything’s like an ESPN hot

100:13

take writings you know so that’s easy

100:16

the counter to that though is this what

100:19

we’re doing right now like these are

100:21

always these long-ass conversations

100:23

they’re hours and hours long and there’s

100:25

a bunch of them out there now it’s not

100:27

like mine is an isolated one and there’s

100:29

so many podcast that cover and some of

100:31

them cover them like in a cereal form

100:33

like the drop out was that there was a

100:36

they called it yes it was the drop out

100:39

was the one about that woman who created

100:41

that fake blood company yes right you

100:44

know Susan was her name Elizabeth that’s

100:55

right Sarah knows yeah the the

100:57

completely fraudulent company that was

100:59

an amazing podcast absolutely that if I

101:03

read it I probably you’re right I

101:04

probably would have liked boring right I

101:07

probably Bandhan it earlier but

101:08

listening to it in podcast form

101:10

listening to actual conversations from

101:13

these people listening to people’s

101:15

interpretations of these confrontations

101:16

listening to people that were there at

101:18

the time telling you know telling

101:21

stories about when they knew things were

101:22

weird and when they started noticing the

101:25

there’s like tests that were incorrect

101:29

that they were covering up that kind of

101:30

shit like you can do that now with

101:33

something like this and I think that one

101:34

of the good things about podcasts too is

101:37

you don’t need anybody

101:39

to tell you that you could you could

101:41

publish this yeah no absolutely I think

101:44

you’re you’re right and I think formats

101:48

like this reveal that the news companies

101:51

are wrong about about some things about

101:54

audiences like they they think that

101:56

people can’t handle an in-depth

101:57

discussion about things they think that

101:59

audiences only want to watch 30 seconds

102:01

of something they don’t they’re

102:02

interested that they do have curiosity

102:05

about things it’s just it’s very

102:08

difficult to convince people in the news

102:10

business especially to take chances on

102:13

that kind of content you know they’ll do

102:15

it for a podcast I’ll do it for a

102:17

documentary but but for for the news

102:21

they just they’re making things shorter

102:23

and shorter and shorter you know I was

102:24

really lucky to have an editor who you

102:26

know understood the idea that we have to

102:29

get into this and in depth or also it’s

102:31

going to be meaningless the program

102:32

right that’s pretty rare you know for

102:35

the most part they you don’t see them

102:38

taking that kind of bet anymore but

102:40

maybe podcasts will help people Punk

102:41

puncture that but the flip side of that

102:43

is that they’re not they’re not

102:45

investing and stuff like like

102:48

International News in the way they used

102:49

to when I came up in the business every

102:52

Bureau every big Network had bureaus in

102:56

every major city around the world you

102:58

know Rome Berlin Moscow whatever it is

103:00

right and they had newsrooms full of

103:01

people who are you know out there

103:03

gathering news now there’s none of that

103:05

right because they figured out they can

103:07

make the money just as easily by having

103:09

somebody sit in an office and in

103:11

Washington or New York and just you know

103:14

link to something and have a take on

103:16

something you know so the I think the

103:19

news is getting worse podcasts are

103:21

getting more interesting maybe maybe

103:23

there’s a happy medium they can find in

103:24

between well documentaries as well

103:26

documentaries are commercially viable if

103:28

it’s a great subject like like your good

103:31

examples that wild wild country one or

103:33

you know I didn’t even know that that

103:35

cult existed I had no idea what what

103:38

happened up there and then so this

103:40

documentary sheds light on it does it

103:42

over like I think it was like six

103:44

episodes or something that’d be fucking

103:46

amazing and it made a shit ton of money

103:48

yet though we’re making a murderer was

103:49

another one

103:50

is really good like they you take

103:52

because that’s something that happens

103:53

all over the place you have these

103:54

Criminal Justice cases and they’re you

103:56

know terrible and justice has happened

103:58

and you know if you really tell the

104:02

whole story and make characters out of

104:04

people and invest the time and yeah tell

104:07

it tell it well people still like really

104:08

good storytelling but but I think within

104:13

the news business they just they have

104:15

this belief they’re hard-headed believe

104:16

that people can’t handle difficult

104:19

material and I don’t know why that is

104:21

you know yeah I don’t know why it is

104:23

either it’s I mean I think there’s a

104:26

large number of people that aren’t

104:28

satisfied intellectually by a lot of the

104:30

stuff they’re being spoon-fed and they

104:33

think that because the the vast majority

104:36

of things that are commercially viable

104:38

are short attention span things I think

104:41

it’s like this real sloppy way of

104:42

thinking non risk-taking way of thinking

104:45

they’re like well this is how people

104:46

consume things you got to give them like

104:49

music video style editing or they just

104:51

tune out but there has always been a

104:53

thirst for actual long-form

104:56

conversations yeah you don’t an actual

104:59

real in-depth exploration of something

105:01

in a very digestible way like one of the

105:03

good things about doing your podcast for

105:05

this podcast any podcast really is that

105:07

you could listen to it while you’re

105:08

commuting you listen to it and it’ll

105:10

actually give you something that

105:12

occupies your mind and interest you

105:14

during what would normally be dead time

105:16

right yeah and and you’re absolutely

105:19

right about the the thirst for something

105:22

else now and again I think when people

105:25

turn on most news products they’re

105:29

getting this predictable set of things

105:32

and that doesn’t quench that thirst for

105:34

them they’re not they’re not being

105:35

challenged in any way they’re not seeing

105:36

different sides of a topic you know

105:39

you’re not approaching covering a

105:42

subject honestly by genuinely you know

105:45

exploring the idea that so that people

105:47

you may have thought were bad or right

105:49

or people you may have thought are good

105:50

or wrong it’s just all predictable so I

105:53

think people are fleeing to other things

105:55

now right they just they want they want

105:58

to just get the story they don’t they

105:59

don’t want to have a whole lot of

106:01

you know editorializing on top of it you

106:03

know and and yeah and and they I think

106:07

also there’s a lot of under estimating

106:10

of audiences going out there and like we

106:12

we just think that they can’t handle

106:14

stuff when they can yeah they’re they’re

106:16

interested but we we just take it for

106:19

granted that they can’t do it maybe I’m

106:21

guilty of that too you know because I’ve

106:22

been doing this for so long but but yeah

106:24

it does happen I don’t think people have

106:26

changed that much yeah no probably

106:29

probably not it’s just um it’s just

106:32

difficult you know maybe it’s also we

106:34

don’t have the the stamina to to stick

106:37

with a story than the same way that we

106:39

used to like now if a story doesn’t get

106:41

a million hits right away we don’t we

106:42

don’t return to the subject mmm you know

106:44

you think about stories like Watergate

106:47

like when Woodward Bernstein first did

106:50

those stories there were complete duds

106:52

like everybody thought they were on the

106:53

wrong path they were the only people who

106:56

were covering it and a lot of those

106:58

stories kind of flailed around you know

107:01

what I mean they they didn’t get the big

107:02

response and it wasn’t until much later

107:05

that it became this hot thing that

107:06

everybody was watching and you wouldn’t

107:09

so that wouldn’t happen now right like

107:11

if reporters were on a story if it

107:14

didn’t catch fire within the first

107:15

couple of passes your editors probably

107:18

gonna take you off it now what was that

107:20

story that the New York Times worked on

107:22

about Trump and they worked on it for a

107:24

long time and it was released and went

107:26

in and out of the news cycle in a matter

107:27

of days and nobody gave a fuck the yeah

107:30

the one about his finances yes and it

107:32

was like a 36,000 word story it was like

107:35

unbelievable it was it was like six

107:37

times as big as and is the biggest story

107:39

I’ve ever written in my life they

107:40

thought it was a giant takedown right

107:42

yeah and it was it your it was like a

107:46

36-hour thing if that right and maybe

107:49

maybe yeah and people kind of said oh

107:53

and this is amazing it’s got all this

107:54

information in it and it just fell flat

107:56

you know and that’s and the important

108:00

thing about that is that news companies

108:02

see this and they say wow we invested

108:04

all this time and money we put our you

108:07

know really good reporters on this we

108:09

gave them six months to work on

108:10

something and it got the same amount of

108:13

hits

108:14

you know some story about you know a

108:18

carp with a human face that was filmed

108:20

in China you know what I mean like

108:21

something that we you know we picked off

108:23

the wires and you stuck it in page 11

108:25

whatever it was so then that what that

108:27

tells in the incentives now are let’s

108:30

not bother listen let’s not do six

108:32

months invested investigations of

108:34

anything anymore because what’s the

108:35

point we’re gonna get as many hits doing

108:38

something dumb right now so they just

108:40

don’t take the risk anymore

108:41

god it’s so crazy that that’s the

108:42

incentive now that it’s all clicks it’s

108:45

such a strange trap to fall into and

108:48

there’s also the the other thing which

108:51

is the the litigation problem you know

108:53

that and this is another thing I wrote

108:55

about in the book is that there was a

108:56

series of cases in the in the 80s and

108:58

90s where reporters kind of took on big

109:01

companies and I’m at the Chiquita banana

109:02

thing that the Cincinnati Enquirer did

109:04

remember the movie The The Insider

109:08

I’m up Ryan and Williams tobacco company

109:10

CBS right there was another one with

109:13

Monsanto in Florida where some Fox

109:15

reporters went after Monsanto and they

109:17

so they all got sued and it costs their

109:20

companies a ton of money and

109:22

reputational risk and so after that what

109:26

news company said is why take on a big

109:29

company that can fight back and throw a

109:32

lawsuit at us and what do we win by that

109:35

we’re not gonna get more audience from

109:37

that you know so now if you watch

109:40

consumer reporting you know what like a

109:41

small TV station usually it’s they’re

109:45

gonna bang on some little Chinese

109:47

restaurant that has roaches or something

109:49

like that they’re not going to go after

109:50

Monsanto or the or or you know Chiquita

109:53

banana because there’s no point that

109:56

it’s too much of a risk so they just

109:59

don’t do it and that’s another thing

110:01

that’s what’s gone wrong with reporting

110:03

you know they they’ve the economic

110:06

benefit of going after a powerful

110:08

adversary isn’t there anymore so they

110:11

don’t do it and that’s that’s a problem

110:13

now clearly you’ve seen a giant change

110:16

in journalism from when you first

110:18

started to where we are now do you have

110:21

any fears or concerns about the future

110:23

of it I mean this is what you do for a

110:25

living what is your what are your

110:26

thoughts on it

110:27

we’re

110:27

you think it’s going I mean I’m really

110:30

worried about it because because you you

110:35

need the journalists to kind of exist

110:39

apart from politics and to be a check on

110:42

everything I think that the whole idea

110:44

of having a Fourth Estate is that it’s

110:46

separate from the political parties

110:47

right I mean I don’t work for the DNC

110:50

it’s not my job to write bad news about

110:52

Donald Trump right that’s the DNC’s job

110:54

you know they’ve put up press releases

110:56

about them and if people see us as being

110:59

indistinguishable from political parties

111:02

or being all editorial then we don’t

111:04

have any power anymore like that’s

111:06

that’s the first thing that the press

111:08

doesn’t have any ability to influence

111:10

people if people don’t see us as

111:12

independent and truthful and all those

111:14

things and so that’s what I really worry

111:18

about right now is like people won’t

111:20

will stop listening to the media they’ll

111:22

still tune us out they don’t trust us

111:24

anymore like Walter Cronkite from you

111:27

know 1972 the Gallup poll agency found

111:30

he was the most trusted man in America

111:31

and that was true also in 1985 like for

111:36

13 consecutive years he was the most

111:37

trusted

111:38

there’s no reporter in America who’s

111:40

true who’s the press the trusted man in

111:42

America

111:43

yeah with it doesn’t it yeah exactly so

111:46

people think of us as clowns and you

111:49

know entertainment figures and so how

111:51

are you gonna how are you gonna impact

111:53

the world if people think you’re a joke

111:54

you know and then that’s why that’s what

111:57

I really worry about we don’t have any

111:58

institutional self-respect anymore

112:00

you know we don’t we don’t feel like we

112:02

have to you know challenge audiences

112:05

challenge challenge powerful people you

112:08

know it’s it’s just a bunch of talking

112:10

points and that’s that’s not what the

112:11

business is about so I worry about it

112:13

and you know I think there are a lot of

112:17

journalists who say the same thing we

112:19

all kind of talk to talk amongst

112:21

ourselves which is you know the the the

112:23

job as we knew it is kind of being

112:25

phased out and changed into something

112:27

else and and that’s not that’s not a

112:31

good thing you know because people do

112:32

need in tough times people need need the

112:35

press

112:36

you know as ridiculous as that sounds

112:37

now because but it’s true and I don’t

112:40

know where we go from here

112:42

legitimate journalism is so important

112:44

it’s so important it’s the only way you

112:46

really find out what’s going on right

112:47

only way right you’re not gonna find out

112:49

through the depictions of the people

112:51

that were actually involved in it they

112:53

want you to see it a certain way you’re

112:55

not gonna find out from people that have

112:57

financial incentives and giving you a

112:59

specific narrative you need real

113:02

journalism yeah it’s so hard to find I

113:04

think it’s one of the reasons why we’re

113:05

so lost and it’s one of the more

113:07

insidious aspects of the term fake news

113:11

because god damn that’s so easy to throw

113:13

around it’s like it’s so easy to call

113:15

someone a bigot it’s so easy to call

113:16

someone a racist and it’s so easy to say

113:18

fake news and all that they all have the

113:20

same sort of effect they just diminish

113:22

anything that you have to say almost

113:24

instantaneously totally and and there’s

113:28

when you can cast the entire news as

113:31

being fake people can tune a tuning out

113:34

but a lot of that has to do with it but

113:35

who is doing the news reading now right

113:38

like in the 60s and 70s maybe before

113:42

reporters a lot of them came from the

113:44

middle and lower classes like the you

113:45

know they were it was the job was

113:47

originally kind of like being a plumber

113:50

right it was more of a trade than a

113:52

profession and so you had a lot of

113:54

people who who went into the job and

113:57

they had this kind of attitude of just

113:59

wanting to stick it to the man you know

114:01

like they they they didn’t want to be

114:04

close to power they wanted to take it on

114:06

people like Seymour Hersh right like if

114:08

you see that kind of personality who

114:09

just wants to take the truth and rub it

114:11

in somebody’s face but then after all

114:14

the President’s Men it became this sexy

114:17

thing to be a journalist and you saw a

114:20

lot of people from my generation who

114:22

went into journalism because they wanted

114:24

to be close to politicians and hang out

114:26

with them kind of like the primary

114:28

colors thing right where you see people

114:30

who they just want to like have a beer

114:32

with the king with the presidential

114:34

candidate and that’s totally different

114:36

from what it used to be like now so now

114:38

now we’re on the wrong side of the Rope

114:40

line you see them saying like we’re like

114:41

we used we used to be outside of power

114:44

like taking it on and now we’re kind of

114:47

seeing we’re more upper class

114:50

in the press and we’re we’re kind of in

114:52

bed with the same people we were

114:54

supposed to be covering and that’s

114:55

that’s not a good thing people when

114:57

people see that they they they you know

114:59

that’s that’s one of the reasons why

115:01

they say they call us fake news is

115:02

because they they see us as doing PR for

115:04

you know rich people one of my favorite

115:07

books ever about politics is fear and

115:09

loathing on the campaign yeah I wrote

115:11

the introduction to that did you you had

115:13

to let the last the last edition of that

115:15

greatest book yeah it’s a fantastic book

115:17

and it’s a great example of someone who

115:20

knew that they weren’t a part of that

115:22

system so they could talk about it as an

115:24

outsider he knew he was only gonna be

115:26

covering it for a year you just went in

115:28

guns blaze and got everybody fucked up

115:30

drinking on the bus making everybody do

115:32

all of them you know yeah and he says

115:34

that in the book he’s like I was like

115:35

look this isn’t my beat I don’t have any

115:38

friends I have to keep you know yeah so

115:40

I’m gonna tell you everything that I see

115:43

and fuck it and and that’s that’s a real

115:45

problem in reporting when you when you

115:47

you’re in a beat for too long you end up

115:50

have developing unhealthy relationships

115:52

with sources and you end up in a

115:54

position where you’re not going to burn

115:56

the people who you’re depending on to

115:57

get your information and when that

116:00

happens to reporters I think that’s one

116:02

of the reasons is good to to kind of

116:04

cycle through different topics over the

116:06

course of your career if you get stuck

116:08

in the same same beat too long

116:10

eventually that you fall into that trap

116:11

and Thompson of course never did that

116:13

like you know every story that he

116:15

covered was he let it all hang out and

116:18

just said whatever the hell he thought

116:20

and you know he let the chips fall where

116:22

they may and that’s kind of the way I

116:24

mean you can’t do that all the time

116:25

probably but I think that’s thing that

116:27

was great it was amazing and there’s no

116:30

other examples of it no no I’m like that

116:33

yeah yeah yeah I mean that book was so

116:35

great on so on so many levels like he I

116:39

always thought it was being also kind of

116:42

like a novel because it’s a it’s this

116:44

story about this person who’s like

116:47

obsessed with finding meaning and truth

116:49

but he he could he goes to the most fake

116:51

place on earth which is the campaign

116:53

trail yeah to look for it and so all

116:55

these depictions of all these terrible

116:56

lying people they’re just so hilarious

116:59

and and

117:00

and so it’s kind of you know it’s almost

117:03

like a Franz Kafka novel it’s amazing

117:05

and then it’s great journalism at the

117:07

same time like he’s telling you how the

117:08

system works and how elections work and

117:10

it’s really valuable for that so yeah

117:12

that was brilliant he also changed a lot

117:15

I mean he actually affected politicians

117:17

like the shit that he did with Ed muskie

117:22

that was fantastic when he was on the

117:24

Dick Cavett show and Dick Cavett asked

117:27

him about it he goes well there was a

117:28

rumor that he was on ibogaine and I

117:32

started that rumor I mean it’s just he

117:38

like literally that he got in that guy’s

117:41

head oh yeah and the I remember the he

117:44

put that picture of muskie he just found

117:46

a picture of muskie and it’s he’s

117:49

basically wearing like that yeah the

117:51

caption is muskie and the throws of a

117:53

nibble gain frenzy right and you

117:55

couldn’t get really get away with that

117:56

now like he just he just you know it’s a

117:59

crazy drug to choose to because the drug

118:01

that gets you off addictions right yeah

118:02

exactly

118:03

more hilarious aspects of his choice but

118:06

it sounded great yeah Brazilian which

118:09

dog yeah yeah yeah it was fantastic oh

118:13

so good yeah but you know that that kind

118:17

of stuff probably wouldn’t go over all

118:18

that well right now don’t get sued yeah

118:21

but the that also he had this very very

118:27

sort of a aggressively characterizing

118:31

way of looking at politics and and

118:33

politicians and that that wouldn’t go

118:35

over that well now either like people

118:36

don’t want you to rip on the process as

118:38

much as he did in that book so it was

118:40

great it was just a fantastic book yeah

118:43

I mean he had a bunch of them that were

118:46

great but that one particularly it’s you

118:49

can sort of redo it you could reread it

118:52

every time we get to an election cycle

118:54

you sort of let goes oh you it lets you

118:57

know these are these are repeating

118:59

cycles this this is just like the same

119:02

shit that he was dealing with and you

119:03

know various different forms but you can

119:06

see it all today and it’s funny the

119:09

reporters everybody’s read that book

119:11

everybody who covers Kent in the

119:12

campaign

119:13

you know I’m on my fifth right now for

119:15

Rolling Stone like I had I have his old

119:17

job and everybody has read that book and

119:22

so they’re they unconsciously try to

119:24

make the same characters in each

119:25

election cycle so there’s always like a

119:27

christ-like mcgovern figure there’s

119:30

there’s a you know a turncoat Quisling

119:34

spineless musky figure there’s the end

119:38

here’s the the villain Nixon trumpet

119:40

Trump kind of fills that role for a lot

119:42

of reporters now and then they’ll a lot

119:44

of them try to behave in the same way

119:46

that the characters behaved in that book

119:49

so you remember Frank mankiewicz was was

119:52

McGovern’s sort of handler and he was

119:55

having beers with with Thompson after

119:58

the events and kind you know

120:00

strategizing with him the reporters try

120:02

to do that they all try to do that with

120:04

the candidates and their handlers now

120:05

they try to develop those same

120:06

relationship it’s just interesting it’s

120:07

like they’re really reliving the book

120:09

you know that’s a problem with someone

120:11

that’s really good you know they take on

120:14

so many imitators and there’s so many

120:16

imitators take on their demeanor and

120:18

their thought process like and Hunter

120:21

was just such an iconic version of a

120:24

writer that it’s it’s so difficult if

120:26

you’re a fan of his to not want to be

120:28

like that guy oh totally I mean I you

120:31

know I I know that I know that you know

120:35

especially because I’m writing for the

120:37

same magazine and covering a lot of the

120:39

same topics you have to immediately

120:41

realize that you can’t do what he did

120:44

like he Thompson’s writing was

120:46

incredibly ambitious and and unique he

120:49

he was using a lot of the same teks

120:51

techniques that the great fiction

120:53

writers used like he was creating almost

120:55

like this four dimensional you know

120:58

story but at the same time it was also

121:01

journalism like you can’t really most

121:05

people couldn’t get away with that you

121:06

have to be a great great writer I’m not

121:08

talking like over rare Mark Twain level

121:11

yeah talent to really to do what he did

121:14

which is to kind of mix the you know the

121:17

ambition of great fiction with with

121:19

journalism so if you try to do that

121:21

stuff it’s going to be terrible and I’ve

121:23

done I’ve certainly if you look go back

121:25

and look at my road and you’ll

121:26

a lot of like shitty Thompson imitations

121:29

and and so I learned to not do that

121:32

pretty early but ya know you it’s one of

121:36

those don’t try this at home things for

121:39

young writers if you can if you can

121:40

avoid that for sure do you have any do

121:45

you have any hope there’s it or anything

121:47

that that you look to ego maybe this is

121:50

going to be where this turns around in

121:54

terms of journalism in terms of like yes

121:57

I mean I think I mean oddly enough I

122:00

think you you know show it shows like

122:01

yours and the kind of proliferation of

122:03

like what you’re talking about with with

122:05

podcasts the great thing about the

122:08

Internet there are lots of bad things

122:10

but the great thing about it is that

122:12

it’s given it’s provided a way for

122:15

people to just have an audience if

122:17

they’re good right if and if people have

122:20

a demand for it they’re gonna there if

122:21

there’s a mint demand for it you can

122:24

exist you can have a platform and and so

122:27

that’s what I think is going to happen

122:28

is that people are going to crack the

122:30

code of what what kind of journalism

122:32

people want and they’re gonna create

122:34

something that people are going to flock

122:36

to and I don’t have a lot of faith that

122:40

CBS MSNBC ABC CNN that they’re gonna

122:45

figure it out like I think it’s going to

122:47

be some independent kind of voice that

122:49

is going to come up with something a new

122:51

formula and people are that is gonna

122:54

rise up you know I mean you’ve seen it a

122:57

little bit with things like The Young

123:00

Turks you know although they’re you know

123:03

they’re chant they’ve changed a little

123:04

bit but they figured out that if you

123:05

provide something it’s an alternative

123:07

from the usual thing that you can you

123:09

can succeed you can get a viable

123:11

functioning business a lot faster than

123:13

you used to be able to what do you mean

123:15

by they changed um you know I I think

123:19

you know they’ve they’ve kind of become

123:21

a little bit more in the direction of a

123:24

traditional news organization than they

123:27

were originally maybe I don’t know I I

123:30

don’t watch I don’t watch it as much as

123:31

I used to so maybe I shouldn’t say that

123:33

but but you know again the ability to do

123:38

that is a lot different than it you

123:40

to be like an or in order to have an

123:41

independent journalism outlet you used

123:43

to have to like for instance put out

123:45

your own newspaper which do you do your

123:47

own distribution do you run printing do

123:48

your own design all this have cost a ton

123:50

of money and it was very very hard to do

123:53

it without big corporate sponsors now

123:56

you know now anybody with a good idea

123:59

can pretty much you know do something

124:01

and I have it so I have a lot of hope

124:03

that somebody’s gonna figure it out it

124:06

just it just we’re not there yet I agree

124:09

with you I’m optimistic I have a lot of

124:11

hope too but I’m always like rock with

124:13

hurry up already

124:14

yeah I know I know and you know and it’s

124:17

just until we get there the the remnants

124:21

of the old system of media they’re just

124:23

you know it’s just so tough to watch

124:26

flailing you know they’re they’re

124:27

flailing they don’t really know what to

124:29

do they’re they’re kind of caught

124:30

between just purely chasing the money

124:32

and trying to adhere to what they

124:34

thought the news look like in the past

124:36

so it’s like not entertaining you know

124:39

if they were just chasing the money if

124:41

they just come up organically today they

124:44

would have had a different product

124:45

entirely but they’re trying to sound

124:46

like legitimate news but they’re also

124:49

completely selling out at the same time

124:50

and it’s just not working you know yeah

124:52

and so yeah we’ll see worse we’ll see

124:55

where all that goes but it’s it’s we’re

124:57

not here you’re right they’re flailing

124:58

right now well Matt Taibbi I appreciate

125:00

you man thanks a lot you really do you

125:02

wanted to talk to you know likewise your

125:05

book tell people hey tink it’s held

125:06

called hey tink its bio are books it’s

125:09

out its out now you can buy it on Amazon

125:11

and my podcast is called useful idiots

125:13

with Cape Cady Halper rollingstone.com

125:15

so check that out once a week thank you

125:18

thanks Joe hi everybody

125:20

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