Peter Thiel: Social Contract vs Scapegoating

if you go to the anthropological
myth of the Enlightenment it’s the myth
of the social contract so what happens
when everybody is that everybody’s
else’s throat what the Enlightenment
says is everybody in the middle of the
crisis sits down and has a nice legal
chat and draws up a social contract and
that’s maybe maybe that’s the founding
myth the central lie of the
Enlightenment if you will and what
Girard says something very different
must have happened and when everybody’s
at everybody’s throat the violence
doesn’t just resolve itself and maybe it
gets channeled against a a specific
scapegoat where the war of all against
all becomes a war can of all against one
and then somehow gets resolved but in a
in a very violent way and so I think you
know what what Girard and Schmidt or
Machiavelli or you know the
judeo-christian inspiration all have in
common is this idea that human nature is
problematic its violent it’s um you know
it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s not
straightforward at all what what you do
with this on it’s not sort of simply
utopian or where we can say that
everybody’s not fundamentally good where
someone like Gerard and Schmidt very
much disagree is that Gerard believes
that once you describe this it has this
dissolving effect so scapegoating
violence only works if you don’t
understand what you’re doing and so if
we say well we have we have a crisis in
our village and we’re gonna have a
witch-hunt
so that everybody can you know get out
all their negative energy and you know
will target this one elderly woman that
only works if you don’t think of it as a
fake psychosocial thing right once you
think of it in those terms it stops to
work and so there’s sort of a there is
the sense of late modernity where this
unraveling has been for Girard an
ambiguous thing
it’s both a bad thing because they’re
these cultural institutions that were
the only way we had ever had of working
and they’re there unraveling

but it’s also inevitable we can’t
somehow put the genie back into the
bottle

 

Mimetic Desire: A Valuable Theory

You don’t have to believe in everything Peter Thiel says to take interest in René Girard’s mimetic theory, which argues that what we desire what we percieve others desire.

Mimetic Desire in Children

If 3 three-year-olds are in a room full of toys and one child grabs a toy, which toy do the other 2 children want?

The Answer: the toy the first child grabbed.

Why: They want it because the first child wants it.

This obviously leads to conflict, so there must be something more going on.

Girard’s answer is that we unconsciously redirect our conflicts to an external scapegoat, who distracts us from our immediate conflicts.

 

About René Girard:

Sam Harris: We are Going to Get A Pandemic and We Need Reality-Based People to Deal with It

Transcript

00:00
hello freak bitches people are really
00:03
reluctant to give up fun shit like lying
00:06
and driving their car fast it fills two
00:09
things people are going to have a hard
00:11
time with you like actually getting into
00:13
the into their mind seeing their actual
00:15
mind and being able to do that so we can
00:17
know without a doubt whether or not
00:18
someone’s guilty or innocent but my
00:20
question to you is if you could get
00:22
inside someone’s mind and it was like
00:23
that really super um suggestive guy they
00:29
were talking about earlier that just
00:30
confessed all the horrific demonic
00:32
possession stuff and eating babies what
00:34
if it’s like getting to the – that guy’s
00:36
mind what if you can’t tell well that
00:42
the case that that worries me and this
00:45
is perhaps an inept segue to politics
00:50
but the me we’re in people’s minds
00:55
everybody get you get someone talking
00:57
long enough you know their minds I mean
01:01
they can only conceal what they’re about
01:04
only so well right how do you can cuz
01:07
you’re a super smart wizard but I’ve no
01:09
just but Jamie I don’t know about I
01:11
don’t know if he’s a mind reader but the
01:12
question is will people care you know
01:14
it’s like like if you if you have we
01:17
don’t even need a lie detector if you
01:18
have someone who’s openly lying right
01:21
right who just gets caught in lies again
01:23
and again you can see it – you feel it
01:25
right but people don’t seem to care
01:27
right in the in the Lisa in a political
01:30
process I’m thinking in this case of
01:32
Trump where you have someone who is in
01:36
in some cases lying or just changing his
01:38
mind in such a incoherent way that it’s
01:45
the functional equivalent of line I mean
01:46
someone who becomes totally
01:47
unpredictable he has a stance that is
01:49
aid on Tuesday and it’s be on Wednesday
01:52
and when the discrepancy is pointed out
01:56
he tells you to go fuck yourself right
01:57
so it’s just there’s just no a there is
01:59
no accountability to his his own states
02:03
of consciousness right that he’s going
02:05
to be helped to and the people who love
02:08
Him don’t seem to care they actually in
02:10
as far as I can tell I don’t know
02:12
someone
02:13
these people personally but it is from
02:15
based on you know social media and
02:17
seeing the few articles where someone
02:19
has explained why they love Trump people
02:23
view this as a kind of this sort of this
02:28
dishonesty what is on in my view both
02:31
dishonesty and a kind of theatrical
02:36
hucksterism a sort of person who’s who’s
02:38
pretending to be many things that he
02:40
probably isn’t they see it as a new kind
02:43
of authenticity right like this guy he’s
02:46
just letting it rip he doesn’t care what
02:47
it what is true he doesn’t care what
02:49
your expectations for coherence are he’s
02:52
just going to tell you to fuck yourself
02:53
every which way and this is the new way
02:57
of being honest right this is a new form
03:00
of ntek integrity it’s amazing to watch
03:03
mist it’s getting it’s been I’m someone
03:06
who actually I remember on my own
03:07
podcast I I think I was talking to Paul
03:10
bloom this is Yale psychologist who’s
03:12
great and we had talked we got into
03:15
politics so this is at least a year ago
03:17
but at that point I said there’s no way
03:18
we’re gonna be talking about Trump in a
03:20
year and this is going to completely
03:22
flame out and I was this is a I don’t
03:24
tend to make predictions but this was a
03:26
clear moment that I remember of making a
03:28
prediction which is now obviously false
03:30
but I just couldn’t imagine that this
03:33
was this what people were going to find
03:35
this compelling enough to further for
03:38
him to be on the on the cusp of getting
03:40
elected it’s it is terrifying have you
03:43
taught if you talked this issue to death
03:45
on your podcast or I guess we kind of
03:47
have well I think this is how everybody
03:49
feels everybody feels like you’re
03:52
supposed to be like with their person
03:53
whether it’s Bernie or whether it’s for
03:55
Hillary or whether you’re a trump
03:57
supporter whatever it is like you have
03:58
to be all but like if you look at the
04:01
the choices that were given the none of
04:04
these could really be described as ideal
04:06
no no like Hillary Clinton you could
04:08
want a woman in the White House and you
04:09
wanna want to show everyone that a woman
04:12
could do that job just as well as a man
04:13
she’s got the most experience she
04:15
certainly has the most experience
04:16
dealing with foreign governments and she
04:18
certainly has the most experience in
04:19
politics can make it easier but she’s
04:22
also involved in two criminal
04:24
investigations she had a
04:26
the observer in her bathroom there’s all
04:29
squirrely stuff going on she’s terrible
04:33
Injun anyways she was anti-gay marriage
04:35
okay like 2013 and then wouldn’t admit
04:39
the change of mind other yeah it’s a
04:40
she’s a politician she’s probably a
04:43
brilliant woman but she’s also set in
04:45
her ways
04:46
in a politician and a politician to the
04:48
end and part of being a politician is
04:50
being a fuckin huckster you got to be
04:52
able to get those people to see your
04:55
side and the way you do that is to talk
04:58
like this I can’t talk like a normal
05:01
person needs a speech coach so they all
05:03
do he’s terrible to the Trump’s not even
05:06
good at it and he kicks their asses well
05:07
no but no but her boys she has a kind of
05:10
to use the the sexist trope she has a
05:13
shrill for it we know where when you get
05:15
her in front of a mic and there’s a
05:17
crowd and she thinks she’s talking over
05:19
the crowd which she doesn’t have to do
05:20
because she’s in front of a mic the
05:22
sound you get is just it’s is she’s
05:26
yelling when she doesn’t need to yell
05:27
someone someone has to teach her how to
05:30
dial that back what you just is called
05:32
mansplaining yes I’m Harry I’m
05:35
explaining to the men in her future talk
05:38
some sense into her but she she is she’s
05:41
a bad she’s a bad candidate right I have
05:44
no doubt that she’s very smart and she’s
05:46
well-informed and she’s qualified and
05:48
she is absolutely who I will vote for
05:50
given the choices but you know I totally
05:55
understand people’s reservations with
05:57
her she’s a liar she’s an opportunist
05:59
she is just almost preternatural e
06:03
inauthentic I mean she’s just like she
06:05
will just focus group every third
06:07
sentence and you feel that from her
06:09
right and and this is all true and yet I
06:12
also believe the people who say I’ve
06:14
never met her but people who know her
06:16
and have met her say that behind closed
06:17
doors you know one on one she’s
06:19
incredibly impressive and and great but
06:23
that doesn’t translate into her
06:24
candidacy she said probably think she
06:26
has to do it old-school you know I mean
06:29
the way she’s doing it but she I mean
06:31
the thing is she’s when you look at the
06:34
what’s work what worries me so I went
06:36
out on Facebook the other day
06:38
and I have said very little about this
06:40
but I’ve made enough noises of the sort
06:43
that I just made that people understand
06:44
that I that I’m you know for Clinton
06:46
despite all my reservations about her
06:48
and when I got on my own Facebook page
06:53
which you have to assume is filtered by
06:55
the people who are following me on
06:56
Facebook and and already like me in some
06:59
sense just like a thousand comments of
07:02
pure pain I mean no one loves Hillary no
07:05
one no one said oh thank god someone
07:06
someone smartest for Hillary it was all
07:10
just Bernie people and Trump people
07:12
flaming me for for for the the most
07:15
tepid possible endorsement of Clinton
07:18
all I said was listen I understand you
07:21
know Clinton’s a liar and she’s and
07:23
she’s an opportunist and she’s I
07:27
completely get your reservations about
07:29
her but at least she’s a grown-up right
07:31
and she’s going to be the candidate it’s
07:35
not going to be Sanders pessoa the
07:37
moment now is the moment to put your
07:39
political idealism behind you if you’re
07:41
a Sanders person and recognize that
07:43
there is a vast difference between
07:44
Clinton and Trump and no she’s not going
07:47
to change the system but she’s also not
07:48
going to run civilization off a cliff
07:50
right and I didn’t forget how I said it
07:53
on Facebook but it was just the most it
07:55
was just it really was a lesser of two
07:57
evils argument and it just it was um
08:01
it’s amazing to see how energized and
08:03
passionate people are in defensive Trump
08:06
and Sanders and there’s almost none of
08:09
that for Clinton it’s like if people are
08:10
just sheepishly saying that just
08:13
divulging that they will vote for
08:15
Clinton but they are maybe somewhere
08:19
that I haven’t noticed someone look
08:21
absolutely loves Clinton but it’s just
08:22
it’s she does not have her defenders the
08:24
way these guys do have you seen the man
08:26
enough to vote for her campaign no no
08:29
it’s with like hipster dudes with
08:31
tattoos and beards that are gonna vote
08:32
for Hillary No I hope it’s fake cuz it’s
08:36
so brilliant I hope it’s not real is it
08:39
fake thank God is it thank god it’s so
08:44
good though cuz it’s not that fake it’s
08:47
pretty good like you could almost see
08:51
so wait a minute yes I mean this is not
08:55
that for her right this is no no no it’s
08:58
not bad for it’s just funny that someone
09:00
would like make a joke
09:02
political ad you know that you have to
09:04
be man enough to vote for Hillary like
09:07
there’s guys out there that would buy
09:08
that they would they would I’m gonna
09:11
know bro they’d do it it’s a scary time
09:14
because it doesn’t seem like anybody
09:17
that you would want to be president
09:19
wants to be President and so we’re left
09:21
with all right what do you pick it’s
09:23
like as if we’re going to play the Super
09:25
Bowl with three the shittiest teams we
09:27
could find we’re just gonna go get some
09:29
drunk high school kids go get some
09:31
inmates with club feet we’re just gonna
09:33
throw whoever it we’re gonna may have
09:34
the worst game ever and that’s what this
09:36
game is is not a good game this is not a
09:39
game where you’ve got like a John F
09:41
Kennedy versus a Lyndon Johnson or it’s
09:44
not it’s not like like powerful
09:47
characters its Trump I guess is a really
09:51
powerful character but in more ways like
09:53
a showman character yeah like what what
09:56
he’s doing he’s like he’s putting on a
09:58
great show and he’s gonna win probably
10:02
because he’s putting on such a great
10:03
show and people like a great show I do
10:07
think I’m now of among the people who
10:09
think something new we’re witnessing
10:12
we’re witnessing something new with
10:13
Trump it’s not just the same old thing
10:17
where the process is so onerous that
10:20
it’s selecting for the kind of
10:23
narcissist or you know thick-skinned
10:26
person who is willing to submit to the
10:28
process and then there are many most of
10:30
the good people just will aren’t going
10:32
to put up with this I mean yes there’s
10:34
that too but there’s um there’s
10:37
something there’s him it’s a moment
10:39
among the electorate where it’s like
10:45
it’s a funnel it’s an anti aesthetic
10:46
there’s an ant is enough of an
10:47
anti-establishment mood and and vote now
10:51
is it happening with with Sanders to
10:55
where people just want to jam a stick in
10:59
the wheel of the system just to see what
11:01
happens just like we this is what
11:04
the main gripe against Hillary really is
11:06
that she’s politics as usual she’s not
11:09
going to change the system
11:10
right right people want to change the
11:12
system but they’re not really thinking
11:13
about the implications of radically
11:16
changing the system and in the case of
11:18
Trump I mean here is someone who is who
11:23
is advertising his lack of
11:26
qualifications for the office in every
11:28
way that he can it’s like he like there
11:31
is no I mean I’m not even but I’m not
11:35
even bothered by his racism or his
11:37
misogyny or his demagoguery or his bully
11:40
I mean all of that I’m willing to to
11:43
guess is an act right that he’s decided
11:46
that that’s somehow pandering to his
11:47
base and he’s actually in truth he
11:50
doesn’t have a racist bone in his body
11:51
say I’m willing to it to believe that I
11:54
matter I don’t know why I would think
11:56
that’s plausible but it’s it’s it’s a
11:59
you know I have a hunch that he’s far
12:01
more liberal than he seems
12:02
and it’s just pandering but the thing
12:06
that that can’t be true is there’s no
12:12
way he’s actually brilliant and
12:15
well-informed about all the issues and
12:17
is saying the things he’s saying he’s
12:19
not pretending to be as uninformed and
12:22
is incoherent and as irresponsible as
12:24
he’s seeming because you wouldn’t
12:28
withhold information it did make you a
12:29
better leader well it’s just it’s yeah
12:31
it’s just it was just the vacuous nosov
12:34
is speech it’s like he’s he’ll say that
12:36
he’ll say the same thing three times in
12:39
a row and it was meaningless the first
12:41
time right he’ll say it’s going to be
12:43
amazing it’s going to be very very
12:45
amazing trust me it’s going to be so
12:46
amazing and he does this with everything
12:49
if you look at the transcripts of his
12:51
speeches and the fact that he can’t he
12:54
has never I mean so far as I’ve seen he
12:58
has never once strung together a string
13:01
of sentences that was even interesting
13:06
right but he bit like he’s knit he’s
13:08
never he just there’s never a moment
13:11
where I record or I say oh this guy is
13:14
smarter and better informed than I
13:16
realized that that moment
13:17
never comes I keep expecting to see that
13:19
happen and it’s a little bit like mad is
13:24
this image of like you imagine have an
13:26
urn right where and you just you keep
13:27
pulling things out of it and all you
13:29
pull out of it is chunk right you pull
13:31
you know chicken bones and broken
13:33
marbles and gum and and it’s it’s still
13:37
possible that you that if you root
13:40
around in that urn long enough you’re
13:41
going to find the Hope Diamond I mean in
13:42
each round that you pull something out
13:45
that really has no logical implication
13:47
for the next thing you might pull out of
13:49
the urn
13:50
but mines aren’t like that when I see
13:52
what this guy says he does not say
13:54
anything that a well-informed
13:56
intelligent person would say and it’s
13:59
just and ideas are connected right so
14:01
you can’t just you can’t fake this stuff
14:05
you can’t say you can’t fake being this
14:07
this uninformed and you can’t fake being
14:10
really well-informed and he’s just me
14:13
just let me look at one policy that he
14:15
wants the the in the rounding up of
14:19
illegal aliens right around up 11
14:21
million illegal aliens now this this
14:23
gets stated as yeah we’re going to round
14:25
them up and send them back to Mexico and
14:28
what worries me is no one seems to care
14:31
but that if you just look at the
14:33
implications of doing this it is that
14:36
this one policy claim alone is so
14:40
impractical and unethical
14:41
it’s just what are we talking about here
14:45
you’re talking like you’re your gardener
14:47
your housekeeper the person who works at
14:49
the car wash the person who picks the
14:50
vegetables who that you buy in the
14:52
market is going to get a knocking on the
14:54
door in the middle of the night by the
14:55
Gestapo and get sent back to the zoo
15:00
the vast majority these people are
15:02
law-abiding people are just working at
15:04
jobs that that Americans by and large
15:06
don’t want to do and many of them have
15:09
kids who are American citizens right so
15:12
I’m absolutely someone’s got kids under
15:14
the age of 10 who are American citizens
15:15
and what you guys send that person back
15:17
to Mexico and you’re going to do this by
15:19
the hundreds of thousands and millions
15:21
it’s just that one point alone held in
15:27
isolation from all of the other things
15:29
he said the crazy things like climate
15:30
change is a
15:31
folks we’ve concocted by the Chinese to
15:33
destroy our manufacturing base and you
15:36
know the fact that he likes Putin I mean
15:38
everything else he said right this one
15:40
policy claim alone should be enough to
15:43
disqualify a person’s candidacy it’s so
15:45
crazy but the moment you you look at it
15:48
and yet no one seems to care in fact
15:51
it’s just it’s just more energizing to
15:54
the people who already like him I know
15:56
that he said that he wanted to build a
15:57
wall but I didn’t know that somebody
15:59
wanted to get rid of the illegal aliens
16:01
rounded up and around him up and do want
16:04
with him I’ll send them back to their
16:06
goal is so crazy that’s such a crazy
16:09
idea and it’s so brutal the idea that I
16:11
mean it’s like it’s a subhuman thing the
16:14
only reason why people would come to
16:15
America is because they felt they felt
16:17
like it would make their life better so
16:19
people take a big risk it’s not there’s
16:20
not an easy way to do it if you’re poor
16:22
you don’t have any qualifications for
16:25
any unusual job I mean you’re trying to
16:27
get across to Mexico but everybody who
16:29
does it does it because they want to
16:30
improve their life you know and the idea
16:32
that one group of people shouldn’t be
16:34
able to do it one group should just
16:35
because they were born on the right side
16:37
of some strange line that is only a
16:40
couple hundred years old but but I
16:42
actually now go further in meeting him
16:45
in the middle where is it so it so I
16:47
think we should be able to defend our
16:48
borders right so it is I don’t have a
16:51
good argument for having a porous border
16:54
that we can’t figure out how to defend
16:56
and we don’t know who’s coming into the
16:57
country right so I think building the
16:59
wall is almost certainly a stupid idea
17:02
among his many stupid ideas but it I
17:04
think it would be great to know who’s
17:07
coming in the country and have a a
17:09
purely legal process by which that
17:11
happened I mean ultimately that’s got to
17:13
be the goal right right and we are we’re
17:17
imperfectly doing that and so I don’t
17:21
have an argument for open borders or
17:23
porous borders but if the question is
17:25
what do you do with 11 or 12 million
17:27
people who are already here doing jobs
17:30
we want them to do that help our society
17:32
and the vast majority of them are
17:35
law-abiding people who as you say are
17:37
just trying to have better lives the
17:40
idea that you’re going to break up
17:41
families and send people back by the
17:44
Mille
17:44
and the idea that you’re going to devote
17:46
your law enforcement resources to doing
17:48
this when you have real terrorism and
17:51
real crime to to deal with it’s just
17:55
pure insanity right and and and also
17:59
totally unethical and yet he doesn’t get
18:02
any points docked for this aspiration
18:05
and it it’s just it’s one of the things
18:07
around which people are rallying but the
18:10
climate change thing is also insane and
18:12
dangerous well here’s a birther right
18:15
yeah right he was one of the original
18:17
birthers he was saying that Obama’s
18:18
birth certificate was bullshit he was
18:21
born in Kenya right wasn’t he one of
18:23
those guys oh yeah he was he was some I
18:26
would like funding that for a while yeah
18:28
I would love if he got in the office and
18:30
just said listen folks I am nothing like
18:32
this person I pretended to be to win the
18:35
presidency I just wanted to show you
18:37
that you’ve been manipulated and get it
18:39
together and he just punked all so I’m
18:43
gonna hire some people who actually know
18:44
how to run things and we’ll see that’s
18:46
the the the smart people who are voting
18:49
for him think and this is I think it
18:52
actually a crazy position but that they
18:55
think that he is just pandering to the
18:59
idiots who he needs to pander to to get
19:03
into office so he’s he’s not disavowing
19:06
the white supremacist votes you know
19:08
with the the alacrity that you would if
19:11
you were a decent human being and you
19:12
found out that David dukes who supported
19:14
you because he needs to he just he needs
19:18
those votes and he knows that that most
19:20
of the people in his base aren’t going
19:22
to care and he can just kind of move on
19:24
in the in the news cycle and he’s doing
19:27
this on all these issues where he look
19:30
we’re smart people see that he looks
19:33
like a buffoon and they are treating him
19:37
as a the people who don’t like him are
19:39
treating him is a comic figure who he
19:41
can’t really believe that stuff he’s not
19:43
really he’s too sophisticated to really
19:45
believe that stuff so he’s just
19:46
pandering I mean one is it people aren’t
19:49
seen if that’s true
19:52
just how unethical and weird that is
19:54
right who the guy has no compunction
19:56
about lying and demonizing people cycle
19:58
let’s say he let’s say he thinks that
20:01
that Clinton really isn’t guilty but
20:04
Bill Clinton isn’t really guilty of a
20:06
rape right and now he’s calling him a
20:07
rapist right now at the time he was
20:10
saying he wasn’t a rapist and he’s just
20:11
being defamed and this is outrage as he
20:13
was saying he was taking the side of a
20:14
friend who you know he invited to his
20:16
wedding but now he’s he’s calling him a
20:19
rapist right a sexual predator who’s
20:22
harmed women’s rights more than anyone
20:25
so which is true right so there’s
20:27
there’s no version of the truth here
20:29
that makes Trump look at all acceptable
20:33
as a person is like either he knew he
20:37
was a rapist and was defending him
20:38
because he was just cozying up to power
20:40
at that point right didn’t care that
20:42
he’s a rapist or now he he knows he
20:46
still is still the guy who thinks he
20:48
wasn’t a rapist but now he’s just for
20:49
purely opportunistic reasons he’s he’s
20:53
willing to call a guy rapists who he
20:54
knows isn’t they’re both horrible right
20:58
and it’s not like this new evidence has
21:00
come forward in the intervening years
21:01
that it would have changed his mind
21:03
about what happened in Clinton’s
21:06
presidency so he’s some but I think
21:10
people think that he’s got to be much
21:13
more sophisticated than he is and that
21:17
if he got into office he would just be a
21:19
totally sober and presidential person
21:22
there’s no reason to believe that I mean
21:25
if he thinks climate change is a hoax
21:27
and that we should pull out of the Paris
21:29
Accords and we should ramp up coal
21:31
production and bring back the coal jobs
21:34
and this is what he’s saying right
21:35
there’s no reason to think he doesn’t
21:37
believe this at this point that’s just
21:41
it you know it is a disastrous thing for
21:44
a president to think the only
21:48
fascinating versions of this that I’ve
21:50
been hearing from people that I respect
21:52
are that the idea that he is like the
21:58
political version of the asteroid that
21:59
killed the dinosaurs like he’s going to
22:01
come down and smash it and it’s going to
22:03
be so chaotic that they’re going to be
22:04
forced to reform the system and people
22:07
are going to respond in turn like the
22:09
way people are responding against
22:10
factory farming and more people are
22:11
going vegan
22:12
that kind of a thing they’re going to
22:13
see it and they can respond in turn that
22:16
is such a so so he’s going to toss the
22:19
applecart up in the air he’s just going
22:20
to fuck this whole goofy system up and
22:22
then we’ll be able to rebuild after
22:24
Trump has dismantled all the all the
22:26
different special interest groups and
22:28
lobbyists and all the people that we
22:29
really would like to get out of the
22:31
system we really don’t like the the fact
22:33
that there’s such insane amounts of
22:34
influence that big corporations and
22:37
lobbyists have had on the weight loss
22:39
get past the myth this might be the way
22:42
to do it you have some wild man you
22:44
everyone’s fired you have fired you’re
22:46
fired Jetson it’s like a character like
22:49
he’s coming in his hairs plastic he’s
22:50
all fired up he’s a billionaire and made
22:53
all his own money sort of dad gave some
22:55
money but he turned into a lot of money
22:57
point being he doesn’t need anybody’s
22:58
money truth is he’s probably lying about
22:59
the amount of money he has to it is his
23:02
but he’s a baller for sure though right
23:04
at the very least he’s got to be worth
23:06
some cash yeah I’m a there could be a
23:08
big difference between what he’s
23:10
claiming when we got back true but he’s
23:11
he’s a minute there are many pieces here
23:15
I mean people assume that because he’s a
23:16
successful businessman he must
23:18
understand the economy right which was
23:20
no necessary connection there right
23:22
there’s a lot of rich people who are
23:25
totally confused about economics and you
23:29
know most economists don’t have a lot of
23:30
money so there’s not even no real
23:32
connection there but the the I mean so
23:38
what you’re describing is a kind of just
23:40
random like like you’re just let’s just
23:42
let’s just smash the window yeah and
23:45
then see what happens right look I’m
23:47
going to light a fire to this this place
23:48
and and see what happens and that’s it
23:55
almost any process by which you would
23:57
change the system is more intelligent
23:59
than that mm-hmm you know and yeah and
24:01
it’s also not valuing how much harm it
24:03
one bad president could do right like
24:07
there’s no I think even I haven’t tested
24:10
this but I’m imagining that even Trump
24:12
supporters would answer this question
24:14
the way I would hope which is like if I
24:17
had a crystal ball they could tell you
24:20
we can’t tell you who’s going to be
24:21
President but it tells you how it works
24:24
out for the next president so like right
24:26
I look in this crystal ball and it says
24:27
the next president United States is a
24:29
disaster right just it’s like the worst
24:32
president we’ve ever had you just think
24:34
of you know just just failures of
24:38
governance and and the toxic influence
24:42
of narcissism and hubris that comes
24:45
along just like once every thousand
24:46
years right justjust a disaster I think
24:50
you know even if you’re a trump
24:52
supporter which candidate that was like
24:55
only Trump is is likely to screw things
24:59
up that badly it’s not Clinton is going
25:01
to is going to be almost perfectly
25:04
predictable she’s going to be a
25:05
politician she’s gonna she’s going to be
25:07
basically centrist on a lot of the on
25:10
foreign policy and domestic policy you
25:12
know she’s going to be liberal on social
25:14
issues she is not going to try to be a
25:20
dismantle NATO and to get into a war
25:24
with North Korea or you know get into an
25:27
alliance with Putin or image she’s not
25:30
going to do something insane and the
25:34
alliance with Putin yeah he he said
25:36
basically only favorable things about
25:38
Putin their homes yeah they’re tight so
25:42
we should get yet hopefully we’ll see
25:44
pictures with both of them on horseback
25:46
shirtless and I have to go read the I’ll
25:49
be able to you shirt on I hope probably
25:51
keep your shirt on I don’t see him as
25:52
being the shirtless guy yeah no I yeah
25:58
when when just look at the landscape the
26:02
between Bernie and Hillary in him and
26:05
you know to me it looks like the last
26:08
gasps of a dying system sorry but that’s
26:11
representative government system but it
26:14
is a lot of a lot of people are saying
26:16
that you things like that but they’re
26:19
not hearing just how nihilistic that is
26:24
if true right right like like we there’s
26:27
so much stuff we have to get right right
26:29
and there’s so much and and the only
26:31
tool to get it right is having your your
26:35
mind actually understand what’s going on
26:38
in the world and
26:39
how to manipulate the world in the
26:41
direction you want it to go so you have
26:44
to understand like whether or not
26:46
climate change is true your beliefs
26:49
about it have to be representative of
26:52
that truth right so like let’s say you
26:54
know let’s say it’s let’s say I’m
26:56
mistaken and there’s you know there is
26:58
no human caused climate change it’s not
27:00
a problem and every moment spent
27:02
thinking about it worrying about it
27:05
correcting for it is just a waste of
27:08
time that’s just throwing out you know
27:10
the wealth of the world right that would
27:13
be a terrible thing right so it really
27:15
matters who’s right about that and and
27:17
the fact that we have a president or a
27:19
candidate who is coming in saying this
27:23
is all bullshit you know in defiance of
27:27
all of the science is and it’s it’s true
27:32
but it’s on every other part of a
27:34
problem doesn’t know anything about you
27:35
know I guarantee you he doesn’t know the
27:38
difference between Sunni and Shia Islam
27:40
or which countries are Sunni
27:42
predominantly in which or Shia
27:44
prominently and I’m sure he’s going to
27:46
do I don’t know when he’s going to cram
27:47
for this final exam I’m sure before one
27:49
of those debates he’s going to get you
27:51
know someone’s gonna sit down with him
27:52
and give him some bullet points he’s got
27:54
to have in his head but his head is just
27:57
not in this game it’s never been in this
27:59
game it’s obvious from everything he
28:01
says and that’s what that is something
28:04
you can’t say about Clinton right for
28:05
all of her flaws as a person I don’t
28:07
care how much you hate her as a person
28:09
she understands what’s going on in the
28:11
world right and that’s that difference
28:13
is so enormous forget about all the the
28:15
other character flaws of this guy who
28:19
who was just obviously going to I mean
28:22
he’s but are we attached too much to
28:24
this idea of one person being the
28:26
figurehead figurehead someone has to eat
28:29
right I’m one decider if we all woke up
28:31
today if everybody woke up and there was
28:33
just no government it was nothing well
28:36
I’ll just what happened I don’t know but
28:38
we got to figure out how to run this
28:39
thing well we had no no previous
28:41
understanding of government what do you
28:42
think anybody would say we need one dude
28:44
to just run this whole giant continent
28:46
filled with 300 million people most
28:48
likely if we woke up and we had
28:50
technology like we have today we
28:53
ability to communicate like we have
28:54
today with social media and whatever we
28:56
would probably say we need to like
28:58
figure this out amongst each other and
29:00
find the people that are the most
29:01
qualified for each one of these
29:03
positions and start running our
29:05
government that way well that that’s
29:07
what we’re attempting to do but it’s
29:09
just and I totally agree with you that
29:11
it is astonishing that out of a nation
29:13
of 300 million people these are the
29:15
choices yeah you would think you would
29:17
think we starting from your your base at
29:20
your zero setpoint of just you know now
29:22
we’re going to reboot civilization you
29:26
would think that if you had this kind of
29:28
process each candidate would be more
29:32
impressive than the next me what you’d
29:33
be like I can’t believe I eat each
29:36
person who came to the podium likely so
29:38
so on James oh yeah it’d be light you’d
29:40
be like the dunk contest you know for
29:42
the NBA I’d be like oh my god like it’s
29:44
just just when you thought you saw the
29:46
best dunk in your life the next guy
29:48
comes along exactly and it would be that
29:50
it would be that on every topic right
29:53
would be like you’d be talking about the
29:55
science of climate change you’d be
29:57
talking about the the the actual
29:59
dynamics of the war on terror – it’s a
30:01
topics that that seem had to have no
30:04
relationship where you would have to be
30:06
you’d be amazed that anyone could be an
30:08
expert in all of them you would find
30:10
someone who was an expert a functional
30:12
expert in all of them a jeopardy winner
30:13
dude yeah yeah but so and but someone
30:15
who is also ethically wise who doesn’t
30:18
just wasn’t obviously an asshole right
30:20
um
30:21
and who who had a mature relationship to
30:30
changing his or her mind
30:32
right so like that this whole bit about
30:34
flip-flopping and and not you know being
30:38
caught it like this is someone who could
30:40
honestly represent changes of mind in
30:42
you know across a political career right
30:45
this is there’s no it’s nowhere written
30:47
that it’s a good thing to believe today
30:49
what you believe twenty years ago in
30:51
fact they do that on every topic it
30:53
means basically you haven’t been in
30:54
dialogue with the world but there’s
30:57
something it’s so taboo to change your
30:59
mind that either you have to lie about
31:01
it or you have to pretend it was a you
31:03
is always that way or
31:06
it’s just a an assistant yeah the the
the the system is is broken in that
respect but given the choices you know
and when you have a choice between
someone who is for all her flaws been in
the game for long enough to be really
well informed and capable of compromise
and capable of not just just breaking
the entire machine and you have someone
who’s just he just got stepped off the
set of his reality TV show and then lied
about everything and a an elbowed his
way you know
onto your television set and never left
because you know CNN couldn’t figure out
how to give the mic to someone else it’s
it’s amazing well he’s a product of
attention
because they realized that
there’s a the heated race right the
heated race this guy was really famous
and in a heated race this guy would say
some crazy stuff and so they would tune
in to him so everybody had to tune in to
him so because of him saying crazy stuff

he accelerated the amount they were
talking about him
so they’re constantly
talking about him and barely talking
about other people and but he’s created
a wormhole in our political process now
where there’s nothing so crazy that
could disqualify him
among the people
who like him that so he can just keep
like nuclear bombs of craziness that the
press can’t ignore that the every time
they think okay this is the crazy thing
he said that’s going to harm his
candidacy so let’s shine a light on it
it just helps him you know he could just
he could you know he could need to get
on Twitter right now so you know who I’d
like to fuck I’d like to fuck Nicki
Minaj and and it would work for him it
would hurt for me you would see a you
would see a tweet storm of a billion
people who say I’d like to fuck Nicki
Minaj to go get her and it’s insanity
that’s where we are
but in a sense if we do admit this is a
fucked up system it’s not ideal it
should definitely be reworked and it’s
so hard to rework wasn’t the best way to
rework it a Trump asteroid just slams
right into the White House
boom blows the whole thing sky-high
who
knows what terrible things have to
happen but maybe that would be enough
thing is we have those those asteroids
are coming anyway so when you look at
like 9/11 was an asteroid right so it’s
like a or a superbug that that becomes a
pandemic
that these are things that are
coming and we need people who are in
touch with with reality to deal with
them
right so it’s like what the moment
someone it advertises their not only
their ignorance but the fact that they
don’t care that they’re ignorant and
they do that this again and again they
keep doubling down that person is like
if you put that person at the helm what
you have done is basically put chaos at
34:11
the helm right it’s like like this
34:12
person’s going to believe whatever he
34:14
believes regardless of the information
34:17
coming in and regardless of the
34:18
consequences that’s just I mean it’s
34:21
it’s it’s worse than having no one in
34:23
charge and because you’re you’ve put the
34:26
power in this person’s hands right so
34:28
this but this person is everything has
34:30
to go through this node in the network
34:33
this is just like an information
34:35
scrambling device right so like know-how
34:37
Matt no matter how good the information
34:38
is coming in you have everything that
34:40
you’ve got a bottleneck here which just
34:42
screws up the signal right that’s what
34:46
you’re doing if you’re if you’re if
34:47
you’re hiring someone like this who I
34:51
mean yet in the best case you’re what
34:55
you stated earlier would in fact be true
34:57
which I he’ll get into the Oval Office
34:58
and even he will be scared about of the
35:01
prospect that he’s now running a better
35:03
part of human civilization and he will
35:05
hire the best people or some semblance
35:09
of the best people he can get access to
35:11
and say tell me how to not screw this up
35:14
and and that will be and then it’ll then
35:18
it’ll essentially be business as usual
35:19
right you
35:20
so far as you’ve hired that the best
35:22
people will be people people who are are
35:25
deeply in this game already right you
35:27
know it will defer to the generals when
35:28
it comes time to make war being real
35:30
really pragmatic about how they pick
35:33
politicians and how they push certain
35:35
people and decide not to push others do
35:37
you think that something like Trump
35:39
completely changes how they move forward
35:41
now they realize that this can happen
35:43
like now that you see that people are so
35:45
goofy we’re so WWE doubt that you can
35:49
get this guy you know I mean this is
35:51
this is where we’re at where we’ve got a
35:53
guys I told him the wall just got 10
35:55
foot higher yeah everybody gets crazy
35:58
like how could you say that yeah once
36:00
they realize that that’s possible how
36:02
long before you get like some
36:03
motivational speaker type dudes how long
36:06
before they start jumping in there how
36:07
it Tony Robbins Ted president so we
36:09
that’s what we have I mean that’s this
36:11
is well this is way worse than Tony
36:12
Robbins for president Weiwei was all
36:15
positive dude yeah yeah but I vote for
36:17
him yeah no Tony right positive god no
36:19
that’s not what I mean I mean right but
36:21
that sort of ability to excite people
36:23
right like if we could get like one of
36:26
those motivational speaker dudes like
36:27
most guys who wears a lot of yoga pants
36:29
and he’s gonna he’s gonna be the next
36:31
president he’s gonna get us in shape
36:33
it’s gonna be a reality show America is
36:36
a reality show we’re there we’re awesome
36:38
we’re the best
36:41
did you see this press conference he
36:43
held I think was yesterday no I didn’t
36:46
know that was a very funny moment where
36:48
the prayer there was one journalist I
36:50
didn’t recognize who it was who gets
36:53
hooked so so Trump was being very
36:55
combative with the the press pool and he
36:58
was he was basically you know shouting
37:00
them down not answering any of the
37:01
questions and one journalist just a gas
37:03
said is this what it’s going to be like
37:06
when you’re president is this how is
37:08
this how what it’s going to be like to
37:09
be in the White House press corps and
37:10
deal with you and and he said yes this
37:14
is what this is exactly was going to be
37:16
like and but you could just see that
37:18
like the journalists like they turn the
37:21
camera on the room a journalist and they
37:23
like they are astonished by what is
37:28
happening here like they don’t know
37:29
they’re participating in this process
37:30
and in some sense they have created this
37:33
process
37:34
but is this no not all of you just many
37:38
of your fine enough of us is this what
37:41
you do is it is this what its gonna be
37:43
like covering you if you’re president
37:45
yeah it is let me do you have this kind
37:47
about the teachers restroom okay yeah it
37:49
is gonna be like this David if the press
37:51
writes false stories like they did with
37:54
this because you know proud half of you
37:56
are amazed that I raised all of this
37:57
money if the press writes for starters
38:00
like they did where I wanted to keep a
38:02
low profile I didn’t want the credit for
38:04
raising all this money for the vets I
38:05
wasn’t looking for the credit and by the
38:07
way more money is coming in I wasn’t
38:09
looking for the credit but I had no
38:11
choice but to do this because the press
38:13
was saying I didn’t raise any money for
38:15
them not only did I raise it much of it
38:17
was given a long time ago and there is a
38:19
vetting process and I think you
38:20
understand that but when I raised almost
38:22
6 million dollars and probably in the
38:24
end will raise more than 6 because more
38:26
is going to come in and is coming in but
38:28
when I raise 5.6 million as of today
38:31
more is coming in and I and this is
38:33
going to phenomenal groups and I have
38:35
many of these people vetting the people
38:38
that are getting the money and would you
38:40
play at the moment I was referring to I
38:44
mean so here is a case where he’s
38:46
probably almost certainly lying about
38:49
his history of giving to Veterans
38:51
Affairs and he gave money very recently
38:53
after people started fishing around to
38:55
see if he actually had given the money
38:56
that he claimed to have given to to
38:59
veterans but I mean this is the what’s
39:05
difficult about this is that I mean the
39:08
pret yes there are the press is highly
39:11
imperfect and there and also partisan
39:14
and there are false stories and there
39:16
are you know exaggerations and that they
39:18
screw people over yes and there are
39:21
reasons to not trust the press from time
39:29
to time but I mean the in this case you
39:32
have a someone who there is no amount of
39:37
fact-checking and dis confirmation of
39:40
his statements that that forces him to
39:44
ever acknowledge anything that he’s done
39:46
wrong and the lack of
39:47
knowledge meant – he pays no price for
39:50
it among among the people who like him
39:52
and so the press is powerless and then
39:55
and then but the net result of like a
39:57
press conference like this if you were a
39:59
Trump’s follower is he just showed how
40:04
biased and and petty the press pool is
40:08
and the press do need to just be beaten
40:11
up by a strong man who who’s not going
40:13
to stand for their bullshit
40:14
but it’s a it’s a maybe what it son
40:19
becoming at the very least that kind of
40:21
communication it’s kind of unexpected at
40:25
sprit II mild you know that’s why me
40:26
compared to his League his paradeen of
40:28
the of the disabled reporter who he saw
40:33
that bit where he you know did like a
40:36
cerebral palsy imitation at one of his
40:40
speeches he was – yeah oh yeah yeah he
40:42
was interviewed by I don’t happen to
40:44
know who them and it was a reporter was
40:45
oh he was making he was making fun of
40:47
somebody with cerebral palsy I mean sir
40:50
he’s done so many things that you could
40:52
that you would think would be
40:54
fundamentally cancelling of a person’s
40:57
political aspirations like like you
40:59
can’t you caught Marco Rubio pretending
41:02
to be like a just goofy on someone
41:03
cerebral palsy at at one of his campaign
41:08
events Oh be the end right yeah one of
41:11
the things that some Ted Cruz was just
41:12
that video with him with his family the
41:14
outtakes well they were I did it oh you
41:17
didn’t see it no it’s a gem uh-huh it’s
41:19
spectacular it’s him with his mom and
41:22
he’s like my mom prays for me often for
41:24
hours every day and she like right she
41:27
looks I’m like what the fuck you talking
41:29
about for hours every day no i don’ti
41:31
can’t even say that and so they have all
41:33
these really awkward moments like okay
41:35
I’m gonna go in for a hug I’m gonna say
41:37
I love you it’s all like weirdly mapped
41:41
out and that got online and people were
41:43
like oh Christ
41:44
okay I see that this is this is a bad
41:47
game like you’re not even good at this
41:49
game this is you’re terrible at this
41:51
game yeah he was objectively terrible
41:55
well that’s his that’s Trump’s
41:57
competition well the thing that would
41:58
think about Cruz that never even got out
42:00
which was the reason to be scared about
42:02
a Cruz presidency was his level of
42:04
religious craziness I mean no one was
42:06
even pushing on that because it was just
42:08
enough to push on before he even got to
42:10
that door yeah you have to hold on to
42:11
those weapons yeah but I mean had it
42:13
been a crew had crews been the nominee
42:16
it would have been all about religion
42:18
what’s what’s odd is that that’s not a
42:20
handicap in 2016 that you can have that
42:24
and people consider it an asset well the
42:27
one thing that’s surprising and actually
42:28
hopeful in Trump’s candidacy is the fact
42:34
that he has he has dissected out the
42:36
religious social conservative component
42:39
of the Republican Party so like the the
42:42
evangelicals for the most part we’re
42:44
going for Trump over Cruz when it was
42:47
pretty clear to them that Trump was just
42:50
pretending to be religious and I mean so
42:52
it’s a Trump gave one speech at you know
42:54
I think Liberty University where he
42:56
spoke he said you know Corinthians 2 and
43:00
you know that’s not the way any Bible
43:02
reader would would speak about the
43:04
second Corinthians how would you say 2nd
43:07
Corinthians
43:07
that’s what how you would say yeah yeah
43:09
and so he said he said Corinthians 2 is
43:11
like MO as though this is something he
43:13
just opened every every night before he
43:16
went to sleep and so it’s clear that it
43:20
was clear to them that he’s not that he
43:23
is just just miming the language you
43:27
know or impersonating a person of faith
43:31
and but they don’t care really as long
43:36
as he does it and that’s that is you
43:38
know if you’re gonna look for a silver
43:39
lining to this it it shows that it’s not
43:42
it’s is they just want a space where
43:47
their religious convictions are not
43:49
under attack
43:51
and they don’t really care that the
43:53
person in charge share them just you
43:55
just if you pretend to share them that’s
43:57
good enough and that’s that’s better
44:00
than actually caring that this person
44:03
really believe in the rapture or
44:04
anything else that is quite obviously
44:07
crazy
44:08
but yet so I don’t think any Christian
44:11
who’s voting for Trump thinks I mean
44:13
they’ll say I’m not going to judge
44:16
another man’s faith right or I’m who am
44:18
I to say what’s really in his heart
44:19
right they’ll say that but he’s just
44:22
given a the if you if you’ve been paying
44:24
attention to who he’s been and and if
44:27
you just look at how he talks about
44:28
these things I don’t he’s fooling any
44:31
any Christian that it so I think they’re
44:34
willing to vote for someone for now for
44:36
other reasons that are fairly depressing
44:39
in their own right they’re willing to to
44:42
vote for someone who’s who doesn’t
44:44
really play the game the way they do you
44:50
have to believe in God to be president
44:53
in 2016 right when you wouldn’t you say
44:55
that has to pretend to believe in God
44:56
yeah but I think with Trump I think it I
45:00
think his the pretense is is obvious
45:03
enough that I don’t think he’s fooling
45:05
the better part of the people who were
45:08
voting for him who would say they care
45:11
about a person of faith being in the
45:13
White House so anything he might be in
45:16
one thing he might be breaking is the
45:18
barrier on having an atheist president
45:21
because I think he you know it’s just no
45:25
but nobody thinks he is a person of
45:27
faith I don’t think anyone really thinks
45:29
that so so he’s he’s me might be our
45:32
first atheist president he would help us
45:34
in that in that regard as well another
45:36
Trump meteor right into the White House
45:37
yeah I’m starting to sound like a trump
45:38
supporter occasionally an asteroid does
45:40
something good who would be the ideal
45:42
president I mean like what what kind of
45:44
a person who I mean it would probably a
45:46
person who doesn’t seek attention
45:48
probably a person that well I don’t they
45:50
it could be that I mean the PERT that
45:53
the process is even even an optimized
45:57
process will be well we’re cool it will
46:03
require enough sacrifice of what
46:06
ordinary people want most of the time
46:09
that it will be an unusual personality
46:12
who has to get promoted you will be on
46:14
some metric B I mean it’s almost by
46:17
definition narcissistic to think that
46:19
you should be in this role right right
46:21
who are you
46:22
to think that you should be running the
46:24
civilization at this moment in human
46:26
history and to for you to be on it’s for
46:29
you to honestly stand at the podium and
46:31
say I’m the guy you know or the woman I
46:35
am the most qualified I should be doing
46:37
this right I can help you know if you if
46:41
you’re going to scrutinize the kind of
46:43
personality that could give rise to
46:44
those opinions it’s not yeah there’s
46:48
there are some dials you would probably
46:50
want to change tweak if you if you had
46:52
to be married to this person or if it’s
46:54
not an optimal personality so there’s
46:57
going to be there’s a kind of pathology
46:58
of a power seeking that might be just
47:02
intrinsic to it but you want someone who
47:06
is actually wise ethically I mean just
47:10
just just try to map that onto Trump
47:11
right just he’s imagine someone saying
47:14
thing I like about Trump is that he is
47:17
so deeply ethical and wise right it’s
47:21
just it does not I mean it’s like saying
47:26
it’s because his hair looks so natural
47:28
yeah is I mean there’s just no it is the
47:32
antithesis of what he is right the thing
47:36
I like about Trump is that he is so well
47:38
informed about the way the world works
47:41
and where he’s not informed he
47:45
recognizes his ignorance so quickly and
47:47
he remedies it as fast as possible he
47:50
did you know he seeks out the best
47:52
experts defers to them and you know he’s
47:58
just he’s as mindful of the limits of
48:01
his knowledge SEO as he is about his
48:04
expertise and his expertise is vast
48:06
right you’d want to be able to say that
48:08
about a president you could not begin to
48:10
say that about Trump right you could
48:14
probably say that honestly you could
48:15
probably say that about Clinton right
48:17
like Italy yeah for all her defects
48:19
she’s very knowledgeable and I’m sure
48:23
she will just try it where she’d up
48:26
where she doesn’t feel like she’s got
48:28
the knowledge he’s going to try to go to
48:29
go to the source of the knowledge right
48:31
just grab the best expert she can find
48:35
I think she I think she will be as aware
48:37
as you or I would be of the consequences
48:41
of not knowing what’s going on right
48:44
she’s just going to want to find out
48:45
what’s going on
48:46
whereas this I mean all Trump has
48:49
advertised about himself is that he
48:51
thinks that bluster and banality and
48:56
bullying will win in every situation
48:59
just like it’s just attitude he the guy
49:02
is the guy is winging it and it could
49:06
not be more obvious that I that this guy
49:08
is winging it on every level and it’s
49:10
like it’s just it is it is it’s not
49:15
there’d be no way for him to signal the
49:17
fact that he’s winging it more clearly
49:19
than he is what everything he’s doing
49:21
and and yet there’s no penalty do you
49:24
think it’s possible that in this age of
49:26
information the way we can communicate
49:28
with each other that we’re going to
49:29
experience these cycles these waves
49:32
these in and outs these high and low
49:35
tides of really smart presidents and a
49:39
really stupid president and we just
49:41
people revolt and there’s just it’s so
49:43
easy to stay alive is plenteous to
49:45
people out there and so they’re only
49:47
willing to vote for other dumb folks so
49:49
the other dumb folks get into position
49:51
they send out the frequency that only
49:53
the dummies here and everybody else is
49:55
going what the fuck is everybody voting
49:57
for this guy for what is happening and
49:59
then it makes the smart people rebound
50:01
and four years and challenge themselves
50:04
anew because they they need some sort of
50:07
an enemy to rally against to reach their
50:09
full potential and then without the low
50:12
tide you cannot have the high it’s a
50:14
virus that’s hopefully that’s not an
50:17
analogy that applies the maintenance of
50:20
civilizations the smell yeah yeah I know
50:23
the time man maybe well at the very
50:25
least it’s a wake-up call for the
50:26
political establishment this silly game
50:28
you’ve been running of two candidates
50:30
just doesn’t work
50:32
someone can co-opt your candidacy get in
50:34
there throw the fucking monkey wrench
50:36
into the gear system and guess what
50:38
Trump’s running for president now is
50:39
that he’s the head I mean he’s the head
50:41
guy for the Republicans how is that even
50:43
possible they don’t know it what’s
50:45
amazing it is a way if nothing else
50:48
a total wake-up call for the Republicans
50:49
may are just it’s June a cast yeah it’s
50:52
June everything’s decided locked down so
50:55
we have July August September October
50:58
November we’re that close but if he’s
51:04
not someone who has been who’s aligned
51:07
with the Republican platform in most
51:11
ways right so it’s like he’s been the
51:16
truth is virtually no one knows what
51:18
what his policies are because he keeps
51:20
changing his position on things like
51:22
taxation it’s like if there actually is
51:24
no he said he’s talked on both sides of
51:26
a core issue core Republican issues but
51:30
I mean in many ways he’s left of Hillary
51:34
right he’s you know he’s left of Hillary
51:37
in terms of being an isolationist like
51:40
he’s you know he means his his
51:42
relationship to war is but both extremes
51:47
like he’s like no we’re just kind of
51:49
we’re going to get out of the world’s
51:51
business right we’re going to be
51:52
isolationist which is deeply
51:54
anti-republican but I’m going to be the
51:58
maniac who you’re never going to know
52:00
who I’m going to bomb next right when
52:01
we’re going to wipe out Isis we’re just
52:03
straight away right did not not a man
52:05
left standing and I’m not going to take
52:09
any shit from anyone including China and
52:11
North Korea and so he’s that but we’re
52:14
gonna pull back in a huge way and not be
52:16
in anyone’s business right he said both
52:18
of those things it’s it’s it was way too
52:26
interested in a way it may we don’t want
52:30
politics to be this interesting and it’s
52:32
going to be me November is going to be
52:35
if the polls are closed and watching
52:37
those debates and and and waiting for a
52:41
swing in the polls as a result it’s just
52:42
going to be it’s going to be way too
52:44
interesting it’s gonna be like watching
52:45
the Super Bowl
52:46
those first debates you know it’s going
52:48
to be it’ll be a hundred million people
52:49
watching those debates I have a
52:53
prediction
52:54
I think I think it’s entirely possible
52:59
this whole thing was a plot that didn’t
53:02
work out this I think he probably came
53:05
out of the gate saying crazy shit
53:06
thinking he would tank the Republican
53:09
Party and get his friend Hillary Clinton
53:11
into the White House
53:12
no just didn’t well she didn’t work out
53:15
he kept trying to insult her kept trying
53:18
to make stuff up about Mexicans it just
53:20
kept making him get better and better
53:21
and now he’s stuck he can’t pull out hey
53:25
that that would be that would be a great
53:27
moment that would change the system well
53:29
we’re going to have to go through
53:31
something like this in order for us to
53:32
realize that this is crazy that a guy
53:33
can just do this can just not really
53:36
have any interest in politics until hold
53:37
out then he should get the Nobel Prize
53:39
for everything if he pulls out at this
53:41
point and says listen I’m just took you
53:44
to the precipice here just because I
53:46
want you to recognize how unstable this
53:49
situation is you you guys could elect a
53:53
demagogue who is actually an incoherent
53:58
demagogue and I haven’t even been
54:00
playing an incoherent authoritarian
54:02
right I’m I’m on one hand a very liberal
54:08
right and tolerant and on the other hand
54:10
I’m like getting ready to be Hitler and
54:13
you guys can’t figure out who I am and
54:15
yet you’re still prepared to vote for me
54:16
right I mean yeah for him to do a
54:19
post-mortem on on his punking of the
54:23
culture that would be the best thing to
54:25
ever happen but I don’t think that’s
54:28
that’s what’s happened do we need
54:29
someone like this so that we realize how
54:33
silly this whole thing is do we need
54:34
someone like that no we need a qualified
54:36
person to deal with all of the other
54:38
hassles and dangers that are coming our
54:40
way that have nothing to do with with
54:42
what we do right like what that verse is
54:44
not that even even if we were doing
54:46
everything perfectly there would still
54:49
be the tsunami of risk right and hassle
54:54
and waste and just omit all the rest of
55:02
the world’s chaos that is coming our way
55:04
and it’s just
55:06
even if we had our house in order in
55:09
every respect
55:10
we still have terrorism and the you know
55:13
global climate change will you have that
55:15
you’ve got China and India and what are
55:17
they doing in terms of complying with
55:20
with climate goals you have all the
55:25
things we’ve been talking about you know
the the virtual certainty that there’s
going to be a pandemic at the not what
I’m talking about bioterrorism we’re
talking about just the sheer fact that
in 1918 there was a killer flu and
there’s going to be another killer flu
right there’s just no way there’s not
gonna be another killer flu and we need
we need people and we need people people
to smart people to change to optimize
the system to deal with these kinds of
things and if we’re promoting you know
religious maniacs and and crazy
narcissists and liars and ignoramus and
only that those people how could this
end we’ll this is just a weird year for
56:12
like heavyweight boxing you know they
56:14
have those weird years for heavyweight
56:16
boxing when Tony Allen is a champ and
56:18
and then are you where you could be the
56:21
heavyweight champion they went through a
56:22
period of time in like the early 80s for
56:25
Tyson came around was a series of like
56:27
these champs that were like you know
56:28
sort of like journeyman fighters and
56:30
then Tyson came along maybe that’s what
56:32
it only only with heavyweights right
56:34
yeah mostly with heavyweights yeah the
56:37
lighter weights they were always badass
56:38
but I think that maybe that’s what’s
56:40
going on maybe we need to have this bad
56:41
season get the season out of our way
56:45
realize the danger of having an inept
56:47
person in office whether it’s a liar or
56:49
dude who hates money or or Trump whoever
56:53
it is just go through it and realize how
56:55
silly it is that we have it set up this
56:57
way still
Queue

Joe Rogan Experience #1107 – Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz

26:52
say so he had made moves in this debate
that I considered intellectually
dishonest and and I mean he because he’s
playing a game and this is not a real
conversation
this is a formal academic
style debate where you know his job is
not to leave his view open to influence
by the other
discussions he’s making a
case and I didn’t know it at the time
but he felt unnaturally constrained by
the format of the debate he had to argue
that Islam is a religion of peace and
some of the moves he made there I
thought were dishonest and so I said ma
Jude I remember this more or less
verbatim because we talked about anyway
since transcribed it into a book but I
said ma j’tia you know everyone in this
room recognizes that you have the
hardest job in the world and we’re all
very glad that you’re doing it you have
to somehow convince the next generation
of Muslims that Islam really is a
religion of peace and the jihad is just
an inner spiritual struggle
and that the
martyrs don’t get 72 virgins in paradise
and all the rest and so my question for
you is is this do you really believe
that this is the case now or do you do
you think that pretending that is that
is the case is the method by which you
will make it the case that if you just
pretend long enough and hard enough
it’ll become so
and the extra line here
was and can you just be honest with us
but I find my final sentence was and you
know you know we’re not on we’re not
televised now can you just be honest
with us here and so there so I responded
immediately and said are you calling me
a liar and so now there’s like 70 we
have 70 people and I’m like into my
second gin and tonic and and and he’s
given me the the sort of you know
middle-eastern stare down across it so
he repeats it I said no no I’m asking
just here
that where there’s no cameras can you
just be honest with us and I said are
you calling me a liar and it didn’t go
too well at all the entire everyone on
the table kind of went quiet and and I
didn’t know who this guy was I never met
him and and I should have known who he
was and and then I think somebody very
tactfully changed the conversation and
just completely veered off this and I’d
never I never spoke to him again for
another what was it a couple of years a
couple years I’d never cross paths in
center the reason I bring this up is
that I was one of those guys that didn’t
want to entertain a conversation with
Sam based upon the defensiveness
when it
came to this topic and and I think that
actually it’s important to say that to
people that because you asked him a
question about the Charles Murray
situation a lot of people rather than
actually wanting to engage with someone
on the substance of their ideas
that I
think in the climate we’re in today that
they’re engaging with people based upon
their on their feelings
and those
feelings are valid of course everyone
has the right to their feelings but
we’ve got to try as hard as we can to
detach those feelings from because
that’s clearly not what you know if the
principle of charity means you lend the
person that you’re speaking to the best
possible interpretation of what they’re
saying and and allow them to clarify
what they mean as opposed to you putting
into their mouths
what what they mean
and telling them what they mean I learnt
that you know because then two years
later he reaches out to me and he says I
think we can try again you know are you
willing to have a conversation with me
and and I hadn’t originally remembered
it was the same guy so that’s fine I got
my foot in the door just because he
30:12
didn’t know who I was and then we had
30:14
this conversation which it’s a lesson
30:16
for me because we had this conversation
30:17
it’s it’s it’s called Islam in the
30:19
future of tolerance it’s it’s become a
30:21
book right published by Harvard
30:22
University Press we had this
30:24
conversation that became a book that’s
30:25
been made into a film which I think any
30:27
couple of weeks now we hear some news on
30:28
that yeah I don’t know one that it’s
30:30
coming out with that so we do days a
30:31
lecture tour of Australia and the people
30:34
who organized that made a documentary
30:36
that week but they realized this lesson
30:39
to your question and that is that I am
30:41
somebody that didn’t engage with him on
30:44
the substance of his question but
30:45
actually fired a misfire an emotional
30:49
misfire on on on what was really
30:51
questioning and his motives for asking
30:54
the question
30:55
rather than actually addressing
30:56
addressing the points he was making and
30:57
I think that when I because I didn’t
30:59
rember who he was I then started the
31:02
conversation anew without the memory of
31:05
my original judgment on him hmm and the
31:07
conversation went really well
31:08
so we’ve got some he’ll be able to
31:10
divorce ourselves on that background
31:11
that can’t happen I mean it can be done
31:13
it’s just it takes people of strong
31:15
character to try to like abandon all
31:19
preconceived notions from the past
31:21
conversation just start fresh
31:22
yeah unfortunately this example of a
31:25
kind of a signal success has has caused
31:29
me to in the end kind of miss spend a
31:33
lot of energy just assuming that’s it I
31:35
can’t keep thinking I keep walking into
31:37
another situation thinking this is
31:39
possible is that why you deleted Twitter
31:43
so you haven’t deleted your account
31:45
no I’m still on Twitter but I I will
31:47
based on this recent episode I is a damn
31:51
fascinated by people and their struggles
31:54
with social media with like detaching
31:57
from it reattaching from it getting
31:59
addicted to it I mean I know so many
32:01
people that will look at their Twitter
32:03
at like 1 o’clock in the morning before
32:05
they go to bed and something pisses them
32:07
off and then they can’t sleep yeah oh
32:08
yeah really common I was not I don’t
32:13
consider myself someone who had a a real
32:17
pathology with it I was you know I have
32:19
I don’t know
32:20
6,000 tweets or 7,000 tweets over the
32:23
course of many years so I’m not I was
32:26
not tweeting that much I was not even
32:28
looking that much I was I was fairly
32:31
disengaged and I’ve never used Facebook
32:33
as I’ve never I just used Facebook as
32:35
kind of a publishing channel I never
32:37
engaged with comments but I was looking
32:40
enough and it it was one was clearly
32:44
making me a worse person imagine it was
32:46
I was I was reacting to stuff that I
32:48
didn’t need to react to and it was
32:50
amplifying certain McCrystal isms and
32:52
and voices which need not have been
32:55
amplified and in this in this last case
32:57
it just turned a it just created a huge
33:02
kind of explosion in my life I was in
33:05
the middle of a vacation which I
33:06
basically torpedoed the
33:08
because of what I saw on Twitter and it
33:10
was just it was like the perfect
33:12
infomercial for why you don’t want to be
33:15
he told you our vacation how well so I’m
33:18
in the middle of it like the first
33:19
vacation taken with my family for in a
33:21
very long time was at least a year and
33:23
Wow and what you do so I you know we’re
33:26
on Hawaii and just like I’m supposed to
33:29
put everything down to be the best
33:30
father and husband I can be right and
33:32
that was my intention that’s what was
33:34
happening it happened for a good solid
33:37
24 hours and then I pick up my phone and
33:42
I see that that Reza Aslan and Glenn
33:45
Greenwald
33:46
and Ezra Klein had all attacked me in
33:48
the space of an hour oh no it goes out
33:51
to millions of people is this over that
33:53
what he was Austria was asking about the
33:54
charles murray thing yeah yeah well I
33:55
true that I can’t even see what I didn’t
33:58
look at what Greenwald had done he was
34:00
circulating somebody’s video about me
34:03
how I’m I think I’m a racist in that
34:05
video Reza Aslan blocks me so I can’t
34:08
even see what if he attacks me by name
34:10
but he blocks me so I can’t even see
34:12
what his but so I just saw the the
34:15
aftermath of that you know lots of stuff
34:17
you know lots of notifications coming to
34:19
me with both of us tagged and then Ezra
34:22
published this message I suppose I
34:25
should back up however painfully to
34:27
describe what happened here but so I had
34:29
charles murray on my podcast a year ago
34:31
and charles murray is this this social
34:33
scientist who published the bell curve
34:36
back in the 90s which it was a a book
34:39
about IQ and and success in in western
34:43
societies like our own and it’s a book
34:46
where he worries a lot about the
34:48
cognitive stratification of society we
34:50
have a society that is selecting more
34:52
and more for a narrow band of talents
34:54
that are very well fairly well captured
34:57
by what we call IQ and there is a kind
35:00
of winner-take-all situation where
35:02
people are really you know 500 years ago
35:04
if you had a a very high IQ and you’re
35:08
just pushing a plough next to your
35:09
neighbor you had no real advantage but
35:12
now you can start a hedge fund or you
35:14
can start a software company and we’re
35:15
seeing the this this real shocking
35:19
disparity and
35:20
in good fortune really so he wrote this
35:25
book it had a chapter on race which
35:28
talked about the disparities in in
35:30
racial groups I observe disparities
35:35
right and the claim about the source of
35:40
those disparities was by even the
35:42
standards of the time but certainly the
35:44
standards of today an incredibly tepid
35:48
mealy-mouthed just hand-waving it was
35:50
not this you know here comes the Third
35:53
Reich declaration of white supremacy it
35:56
was undoubtedly there are environmental
36:01
and genetic reasons for this and we
36:03
don’t understand them you know it was
36:05
like to think that is one or the other
36:08
we’re not in a position to know what the
36:10
mixes of influences now and that is
36:14
virtually any honest scientists take on
36:17
the matter and certainly today and it’s
36:22
only become more so but that went off
36:25
like a nuclear bomb I mean that was just
36:26
so that was such a I mean it’s it’s the
36:31
most I saw at the time I never read the
36:35
book I just thought this had to be just
36:36
racist cause Marie would be vilified for
36:39
films and he’s been vilified ever since
36:42
and ever since you know I’ve ignored him
36:44
there’s any deep platformed and was
36:46
assaulted recent yeah so that’s what
36:47
happened so he went to Middlebury to
36:49
give a talk you know 20-some odd years
36:52
25 years after he wrote this book oh by
36:55
the way he’s also listed by the Southern
36:56
Poverty Law Center oh and so that that
36:58
that’s what contributed to the D
37:00
platforming and the violent protests
37:02
against him at Middlebury what’s crazy
37:04
is the whole thing is a propaganda for
37:06
the superiority of the Asian race and
37:08
everyone’s talking about white supremacy
37:12
decisions are the ones far and above I
37:14
mean that’s basically what his book
37:16
proved and you know they’re suing
37:18
Harvard now there’s a group of Asian
37:20
students that are suing Harvard because
37:21
they’re discriminated against because
37:23
they’re required to have higher scores
37:24
because they’re assumed to be smarter so
37:27
their standards for Asian students
37:29
entering into Harvard is higher than
37:31
white people
37:32
Wow yes while Asian privilege has a big
37:34
problem yeah your grandfather was
37:37
working on the railroads in California
37:39
as an indentured servant and all that
37:42
privilege trickled down there’s
37:43
obviously a lot of factors that lead to
37:45
IQ to hierarchy but to ignore what those
37:48
are to ignore it completely to disinvite
37:51
all of you yes exactly only ideology and
37:54
this idea that you cannot look at
37:55
statistics you cannot look at facts and
37:58
in your conversation with ezra’s charles
38:00
that sort of as a recline rather that’s
38:01
what I got is that this is this is an
38:04
ideological issue and that you you it’s
38:08
almost like an impossible subject to
38:10
breach like you can’t even discuss the
38:12
fact that certain races demonstrate low
38:16
IQ and then let’s look at what could be
38:19
the cause of those even discussing that
38:21
somehow another is so inherently racist
38:23
that it must be ignored or must be
38:25
silenced and that you you must first
38:28
concentrate on all the various and
38:30
justices that have been done to those
38:31
people who have this lower IQ yeah well
38:34
let me just take a couple of minutes to
38:35
close the various doors to hell that are
38:37
now ajar based on what we’ve just said
38:40
on your holiday and you get it yeah so
38:43
we’ll just take a little more context so
38:45
yeah as you said Charles Murray went to
38:47
Middlebury College and was D platformed
38:48
and he was not only the platform so the
38:50
usual D platform and with the students
38:52
turning their back to the speaker and
38:53
shout in and not let anything happen but
38:56
the professor who invited him who was a
38:58
liberal professor who wanted to
39:00
essentially debate him she was attacked
39:01
when they’re leaving the hall they both
39:04
get physically attacked by a crowd of
39:07
students charles was was not hurt his
39:10
host this female professor got a
39:13
concussion and a neck injury that that
39:15
still persists and this is now more than
39:17
a year later so it’s like sure that she
39:18
was a registered devil arm by this no
39:21
doubt and and they’re driving out in an
39:23
SUV where that gets I mean someone pulls
39:25
a stop sign out of the the sidewalk and
39:28
I still got the concrete ball on the end
39:29
of it and that this SUV gets smashed
39:31
with this you know concrete Laden stop
39:33
sign I mean this was this is happening
39:35
at one of the most liberal privileged
39:38
colleges on earth it’s nuts so anyway
39:42
that was the thing that put Murray on my
39:44
radar after
39:45
all these many years of my ignoring him
39:46
and I had actually I felt guilty because
39:48
I had declined to be a part of at least
39:51
one project because his name was
39:53
attached right because I just thought
39:55
that this guy is radioactive he’s got
39:57
some white supremacist agenda I had
39:59
believed the the the the lies about him
40:02
and then I saw this I thought okay well
40:04
maybe he’s the canary in the coal mine
40:06
or certainly one of the Canaries in the
40:08
coal mine that I had ignored where the
40:09
as you say there’s a certain topics are
40:12
considered so politically fraught that
40:15
you cannot discuss them no matter what
40:17
is true like it’s just a you know there
40:20
has to be a firewall between your
40:23
conversation about reality and these
40:25
sorts of facts and so you know he so
40:30
he’s been you know suffering from having
40:32
transgressed that boundary and so I had
40:35
him on the on the podcast being fairly
40:39
agnostic about his his actual social
40:42
policy commitments and his political
40:44
concerns and just wanting to talk about
40:48
you know the facts and so far as we
40:51
touch them lightly may had zero interest
40:52
in intelligence as measured by IQ
40:57
although I mean it’s an interesting
40:58
subject but I hadn’t you know I hadn’t
41:00
spent much time focused on that and I
41:02
had truly zero interest in establishing
41:06
differences between populations with
41:08
respect to intelligence or anything else
41:10
but I see what’s coming I see the fact
41:13
that that the the more we understand
41:15
ourselves genetically and
41:17
environmentally the more we will if we
41:20
go looking or even if we’re not looking
41:21
we will discover differences between
41:23
groups and the endgame for us as a
41:27
species is not to deny that those
41:29
differences exist or could possibly
41:30
exist it’s to deny that they have real
41:35
political implication I mean with the
41:37
political implica lurk we need is a
41:40
commitment to to equality across the
41:44
board and a commitment to treating
41:46
individuals as individuals there’s
41:48
nobody who’s that the average of a
41:50
population is meaningless with respect
41:53
to you and that will always be so and
41:57
and whatever you know and whatever
42:00
diversity of talents there is
42:01
statistically in various populations we
42:04
want societies that simply don’t care
42:09
politically about that I mean that’s
42:12
just it’s just not what we its they are
42:17
our political tolerance of one another
42:19
in support of one another is not
42:21
predicated on denying individual
42:24
differences or even statistical
42:26
differences across groups it can’t be
42:28
because we know that there are people
42:29
walking around like you know Elon Musk
42:33
who gets out of bed in the every morning
42:35
does the work of like 4,000 people right
42:37
and people who just are struggling to
42:41
work at Starbucks and hold down a job
42:42
and our political system I mean we don’t
42:48
say one person is more valuable
42:50
politically and socially than another
42:52
even though one person is capable of
42:54
doing massive things that that many most
42:57
other people aren’t it’s you know when
43:00
it comes time to to write laws and
43:03
create institutions that protect you
43:05
that that support human flourishing we
43:08
we have to engineer times that raise all
43:11
the boats and so you know and and you
43:13
know they’re legitimate debates about
43:15
the social policies that will do that
43:17
but and they’re legitimate debates about
43:19
facts so we can debate scientific fact
43:21
and and you know the the results of you
43:25
know psychometric testing or or
43:27
behavioral genetics that are relevant to
43:29
this question of intelligence and we can
43:31
have a good faith debate about the data
43:33
and then we can have a good faith debate
43:35
about social policy that should follow
43:37
from the data but what’s happening on
43:39
the left now is on either at either of
43:42
those tiers of conversation there are
43:46
just straight-up allegations of racism
43:49
that hit you the moment you touch
43:51
certain a certain fact can I say that
43:53
that what he just summarized that when
43:55
I’ve heard it sounds to me as being more
43:59
humane than the implications of the
44:03
argument that the left who are opposing
44:05
what Sam has just said ah because if you
44:08
think about it the implications of their
44:10
argument would be
44:11
they’re what they want to deny the facts
44:12
because they’re scared that those facts
44:15
would from which there would be derived
44:19
a policy that would reflect those facts
44:21
and other words in their minds they are
44:24
marrying those two they are marrying the
44:26
notion that if in statistical observance
44:28
there are variances in IQs between
44:31
groups in their minds that means the
44:33
policy should follow from that so it’s
44:36
why they’re resisting what he’s saying
44:38
whereas what he’s saying is there is no
44:41
connection between what the policy
44:42
should be and what the facts may be
44:43
because of the kind of world we want to
44:45
live in should aspire to equality
44:48
regardless of what the science is saying
44:49
because one is policy and one is science
44:52
I freely agree with you on that but I
44:54
don’t think that’s necessarily exactly
44:55
what they’re saying well I think what
44:57
they’re saying is what they’re doing is
44:59
they almost feel so guilty that any
45:01
discussion whatsoever about race can’t
45:03
be held unless you repeatedly bring up
45:06
all the instances of racism and
45:08
suppression that in discrimination that
45:11
that group has suffered from it’s like
45:13
you can’t it doesn’t exist as a
45:15
statistic island you have to bring
45:18
everything in together if you don’t do
45:20
that
45:21
that’s where their protest comes from
45:22
and I think that was one of the things
45:24
that I got from your conversation with
45:25
Ezra Klein he wasn’t willing to just
45:27
discuss what’s the implication of these
45:29
issues and completely dismiss this this
45:32
fact that Asian people score far better
45:36
there it’s not there’s nothing but it’s
45:38
always fair that by conceding on the
45:41
data it’s almost as if they fear that
45:43
the implication must necessarily follow
45:45
that the policy will also be supremacist
45:47
in that way hmm I wonder I honestly
45:50
think that what we talked about before
45:51
is a big part of it this is ideological
45:53
an idea sport and that they’re just
45:55
volleying back I don’t think they’re
45:57
willing to take I think one of the real
45:59
strengths of character that you
46:01
demonstrate in a debate or any
46:03
discussion of faxes when uncomfortable
46:05
truths rear their ugly head that are
46:07
counter to your or your personal
46:09
position you have to be able to go you
46:11
got a really good point you’ve got a
46:13
good point there’s something to that I
46:14
see what you’re saying okay this is what
46:16
my concern would be and this would be a
46:17
rational real conversation this is what
46:20
I would worry about and then you would
46:21
I’m sure say absolutely I would worry
46:24
about that as well and then you would
46:25
have this sort of a discussion I didn’t
46:27
get that from that conversation you had
46:29
I got ping pong I got I got this
46:32
rallying back and forth of ideas rather
46:35
than two human beings not digging their
46:38
heels into the sand just trying to look
46:41
at the ideas and look at the statistics
46:43
and look at these studies for what they
46:44
are and look at charles murray and what
46:46
he’s gone through and should we be able
46:49
to examine these statistical anomalies
46:51
should be able to examine athletic
46:53
superiority should we be able to examine
46:56
superiority that asians show and
46:58
mathematics and a lot of the sciences
46:59
should we should we be able to or should
47:01
we just dig our heads in the city should
47:03
we just let things sort themselves out
47:04
and quietly ignore all the reality yeah
47:07
I don’t know what so I should say that I
47:10
am I certainly understand people’s fear
47:13
that if you could that anyone who would
47:16
go looking for racial difference is very
47:19
likely motivate and motivated by
47:20
something unethical or unsavory right so
47:22
like like you could imagine you know
47:24
white supremacists being being super
47:29
enamored of this the possibility that
47:31
these days is yes and they are yes and
47:33
so they look at the Asians too so so
47:38
that’s like I get that right and there
47:41
is there’s some things that and this was
47:43
the question I had for charles murray on
47:44
them on that podcast i said like why pay
47:47
attention to any of this what is the
47:48
upside in the in the infinity of
47:52
interesting problems we can tackle
47:54
scientifically why focus on population
47:56
differences and you know frankly i
47:58
didn’t get a great answer from him i
48:00
mean yesterday his answer his answer is
48:03
well I think the best version of his
48:06
answer which I agree with but still it
48:08
may not justify certain certain uses of
48:11
attention it’s just that if you there’s
48:15
this massive bias that basically we’re
48:19
all working with a blank slate you know
48:22
genetically and therefore any difference
48:25
you see among people is a matter of
48:28
environment and so so then you have
48:31
people who have privileged environments
48:34
and people who have environments that
48:36
that
48:37
where they’re massively under-resourced
48:40
and so therefore any different
48:44
representation at the you know the
48:46
higher echelons of success and
48:48
achievement and power in our society you
48:51
know if there’s 13% African Americans in
48:54
the u.s. if you look at the top doctors
48:56
in hospitals or the top academics or the
49:01
you know the Oscar winners or whatever
49:03
you know whatever you want to look for
49:04
for for achievement if there are less
49:07
than 13% African Americans in any one of
49:10
those bins that has to be the result of
49:13
racism or systemic racism that is the
49:18
left the leftward bias at this moment
49:20
and it and so it is with Jews for
49:22
anti-semitism so it is to women you know
49:25
there should be an equal representation
49:26
of women you know computer software
49:29
engineers at Google and any lack of any
49:34
disparity there must be the result of
49:36
either just inequitable resources for
49:42
you know kids in schools or somewhere
49:44
along the way or a pound of a selection
49:48
pressure from the top that you know we
49:50
do you know we don’t like women in at
49:51
Google or blacks at the Oscars and so
49:57
that’s the so Murray’s concern is if you
50:00
believe that and I’m you know this it’s
50:03
not exactly what he said but this is
50:04
this is what I believe he thinks but I
50:06
could be putting some words into his
50:07
mouth here but there’s certainly what
50:08
many other people on his side of the
50:10
debate thing if you believe that you
50:12
will can consistently find racial bias
50:16
and anti-semitism and misogyny where it
50:18
doesn’t exist right so like if you if
50:20
you go looking if you go to a hospital
50:22
and this is a real problem you that
50:24
they’re like like you know the academic
50:26
departments in the medical schools at
50:28
the best medical schools are under
50:29
massive pressure to find like real
50:33
diversity in representation at the
50:35
highest level you need to find a head of
50:38
Cardiology who’s black right and if you
50:42
and you end the fact that you haven’t
50:44
done that is a sign that there’s a
50:46
problem with you and your organization
50:48
and your process of hiring
50:50
now if it’s just the case for whatever
50:53
reason that there are not many
50:55
candidates likely of less than 13% for
50:58
that field or to take the you know the
51:00
James d’amore memo at Google right if it
51:03
just is the case that women forget about
51:05
this is this is beyond aptitude this
51:07
just goes to interest if it’s the case
51:09
that women for whatever reason genetic
51:12
and but or environmental are less
51:16
interested in being software engineers
51:17
on average than men are then you then
51:21
having you know twenty percent women
51:22
coding software at Google is not the
51:25
probably’s not Google’s problem it’s
51:27
just the fact that this is that the
51:28
popular what the population the
51:30
interests are now we should no doubt
51:33
racism still exists no doubt misogyny
51:36
and sexism still exist there there are I
51:39
mean that and there’s proof of this to
51:40
be found as well but if to assume an
51:44
absolute uniformity of humor of interest
51:48
and aptitude in every population you
51:50
could look at is just scientifically
51:54
irrational that would be a miracle if
51:56
that was it so at this stage allow me to
51:58
remind everybody that was Sam’s
51:59
summarizing what he thinks Charles Mari
52:01
was saying as opposed to Sam what no no
52:04
that final point it’s just a true point
52:07
there jeans almost everything we care
52:10
about are massively influenced by genes
52:13
not a hundred percent of what I’ve seen
52:15
happen to you though is that people have
52:16
taken your summaries of other people
52:19
Charles Murray’s position you it’s your
52:22
summary of his position in relationship
52:25
to this this fight against it the thing
52:28
that I would add and the thing were
52:30
there’s some daylight between the two of
52:32
me and him on my podcast is this is so
52:38
toxic to be trafficking in population
52:44
differences with respect to IQ that and
52:48
and it’s not it’s not absolutely clear
52:50
what Social Policy is turn on really
52:54
nailing down these differences I mean so
52:56
you could go I mean to take it even more
52:57
toxic as an example
52:58
it’s like you could decide you know the
53:02
Roma in Europe the gypsies like this is
53:04
like a very isolated beleaguered you
53:07
know community who knows how inbred it
53:10
is I mean I don’t know it’s just this is
53:12
a this is an outlier community like
53:15
anyone who’s gonna want to do you know
53:17
massive IQ testing on the Roma what’s
53:20
the what’s the point of doing that right
53:22
like you know it’s like your it seems
53:24
like a just a kind of political time
53:28
bomb to devote resources in that way
53:32
because we know that the policy you want
53:36
whatever any whatever this the mean IQ
53:39
is of any group the policy you want is
53:42
to give everyone whatever opportunities
53:45
they can avail themselves of so we want
53:47
we want people to have the best schools
53:49
they can use and then we’ll find people
53:51
who need to be in more remedial schools
53:54
for whatever reason or you know people
53:55
like you know they’ll be one population
53:57
that has ten times the amount of
53:59
dyslexia then another population say and
54:02
they’ll be undoubtedly genetic reasons
54:04
for that you know there may be
54:05
environmental reasons for that as well
54:07
but there’s we need to be able to cater
54:10
to all of those needs with just there’s
54:14
this fundamental commitment to goodwill
54:16
and equality without being panicked that
54:19
we’ll find stuff that just blows
54:21
everything up but on the left there
54:24
there’s the sense that the only way to
54:26
move forward toward equality is to lie
54:29
about what is scientifically pause
54:31
applause a bowl and demonize anyone who
54:34
won’t lie with you mmm that’s the
54:37
ideological point yeah this is a new
54:41
thing though right I mean relatively
54:43
speaking this this hard-nosed dance from
54:46
the left of the equality of outcome and
54:48
and the only reason why there wouldn’t
54:51
be 50% women or 50% black or 50% any you
54:54
just pick any marginalized group the
54:56
only reason why wouldn’t be even across
54:57
the board with all other races is
54:59
because of discrimination this is a
55:00
fairly new stance I mean there were
55:02
there were moments that were fairly well
55:04
publicized that I don’t forget when
55:06
Larry Summers got fired from Harvard so
55:08
Larry Summers was the president of
55:09
Harvard and he’s a famous economist
55:12
and he gave a speech for what she was
55:15
fired there might be a little more color
55:17
as to why he was fired I mean it was
55:19
more fired because he he wants the the
55:21
wheels started to come off he didn’t he
55:24
had alienated enough people that he
55:25
didn’t have friends to kind of prop him
55:26
up but but the thing that pulled the
55:28
wheels off was that he gave a speech and
55:30
he said we know there are our
55:34
differences in in the the bell curves
55:37
that describe you know mathematical
55:39
aptitude between men and women and this
55:42
explains why there are many more
55:44
top-flight male mathematicians and
55:47
engineers than women and it’s not that
55:49
they even it’s not that the the means of
55:53
the the of the bell curves are different
55:56
so the means could be the same but there
55:59
could be more variant so that the tails
56:00
are thicker in the case of the male bit
56:02
poker so at the absolute ends both of
56:05
the low end and the high end you have
56:07
many more people so you know if you’re
56:10
gonna ask you know what’s the in the
56:12
same size population how many people do
56:15
you have at the 99.999% aisle of
56:19
aptitude in math say it could be that
56:23
you have and there’s a fair amount of
56:24
data to show this many more men at the
56:27
tails than women
56:29
right and and that’s true for
56:31
grandmasters in chess right it’s just
56:33
the it’s just this is not a and it may
56:36
be true for something like you know
56:38
playing pool you know I mean they’re
56:39
they’re just differences and that may
56:41
not be entirely environmental almost
56:43
certainly or not entirely environmental
56:45
that is one right it’s a big issue in
56:49
the world of pool men and women play
56:51
separately and there’s no reason
56:52
physically why they should yeah it’s not
56:54
a strength game right but women are
56:56
allowed to play in men’s tournaments but
56:58
they never win right gene be Lucas was a
57:00
woman who’s she was like one of the only
57:03
women ever compete and beat men she’s
57:06
like an extreme outlier and this was
57:07
like I want to say was in the late
57:10
seventies in the 80s and and other than
57:12
that there’s been a few women that have
57:14
done well in tournaments but when they
57:15
come to major league professional pool
57:17
tournaments they’re almost always won by
57:20
men and I’m when I say almost I mean
57:22
like 99.9 percent so it was a cum
57:25
games have been happening as we it was
57:27
just over the last couple of weeks and
57:29
there was a male to female transgendered
57:32
athlete in the weightlifting category
57:35
that’s a whole nother boy participated
57:37
in the women’s competition yes and the
57:41
Commonwealth Games at the time of her
57:43
joining hadn’t yet put down a rule asked
57:46
the testosterone levels in the females
57:48
competing and so this male to female
57:51
transgendered person qualified in the
57:53
female games and was as you’d expect
57:57
winning in all of the games and was the
58:00
front-runner and destined to win the
58:02
competition as a male to female
58:04
transgendered person and the only reason
58:06
and it would have led to a huge crisis
58:08
in the Commonwealth Games because there
58:10
was some resistance to this notion and
58:13
of course the questions that arise is
58:15
this fair men are born naturally with
58:17
higher levels of testosterone for
58:18
example the only reason it didn’t lead
58:20
to the crunch time and that was the huge
58:22
scandal of of her winning is that she
58:25
injured herself in the competition and
58:27
by sheer accident yeah I saw that I can
58:30
expand on that a little bit because I’ve
58:31
actually gone through this extensively
58:33
because there was a woman who was used
58:36
to be a man was competing in mixed
58:37
martial arts against women and just
58:39
beating the shit out of them and I and I
58:41
was saying that this is this is a
58:42
mistake and that you’re you’re looking
58:45
at whether someone should be legally
58:47
able to identify as a woman portray
58:50
themselves as a woman absolutely do you
58:51
have the freedom to become a woman in
58:54
quotes in our society yes but you can’t
58:56
deny biological nature and there’s
58:58
physiological advantages to the male
59:00
frame there’s it’s specifically when it
59:03
comes to combat sports that’s my
59:05
wheelhouse I’m an expert I understand
59:07
there’s a giant difference between the
59:09
amount of power that a man and a woman
59:11
can generate and if you’re telling me
59:13
that a guy living thirty years of his
59:14
life as a man that’s that’s essentially
59:17
like a woman being on steroids for 30
59:19
years
59:20
then getting off and then having regular
59:23
women being forced to compete with her
59:25
and trying to pretend this a level
59:27
playing field
59:28
it is not there’s a difference in the
59:29
shape of the hips the size of the
59:31
shoulder the density of the bones the
59:33
size the fists wet that’s a giant factor
59:36
and your ability to generate power is
59:39
size of your fists it’s also an ethical
59:41
problem it’s not just a competition here
59:42
is he have girls getting beaten up by
59:45
someone who used to be a man yes but
59:47
people came down on me harder than
59:50
anything that I’ve ever stood up for in
59:52
my life never in my life – I think
59:53
there’s gonna be a situation when I said
59:55
hey I don’t think the guy should be able
59:56
to get his penis removed and beat the
59:57
shit out of women and then people like
59:59
you’re out of line but that’s what
60:04
happened this is a conversation that I
60:05
had with a woman online this one what
60:08
during this whole thing she said she
60:11
this person who had turned into a woman
60:13
has always been a woman and I said but
60:16
she was a man for 30 years she goes no
60:18
she’s always been a woman I go even when
60:20
she had sex with a woman and fathered a
60:23
kid and she says yes even then I go well
60:26
we’re done yeah because you’re just
60:27
talking nonsense that’s a neurology
60:30
cover exact the facts as they are that
60:32
she had a male physique this person
60:35
always arguing with me wants to claim
60:37
this moral high ground of being the most
60:39
progressive and they’re always looking
60:41
step on top of anybody who’s less
60:43
progressive than then and complained and
60:45
proclaimed superiority and this is the
60:47
ideological sport this is the idea sport
60:50
that that you see with what people are
60:52
playing just ping-pong with ideas
60:54
they’re not listening you you need to
60:56
listen to experts in in that when you
60:59
especially talk about martial arts
61:01
there’s a did the the difference is so
61:03
profound and the results are so critical
61:06
because you’re talking about a sport
61:08
where the objective goal the goal is
61:11
clear it’s very clear beat the fuck out
61:14
of the other person in front of you yeah
61:15
so anything that would give you an
61:17
advantage in beating the fuck out of
61:18
that person should be really looked at
61:20
very carefully and not to thrown through
61:23
the the lens of this progressive
61:25
ideological filter that we’re going
61:26
through right now because that’s that’s
61:28
what it is I mean that’s how people are
61:29
looking at it it’s with weightlifting as
61:31
well when transgendered athletes going
61:34
to weightlifting competitions the male
61:37
to female transgender athletes are
61:39
overwhelmingly dominant I mean is this
61:42
is this a coincidence or it’s no it’s
61:44
someone who had fucking testosterone
61:46
pumping through their system and a
61:48
y-chromosome their whole life and now
61:50
all of a sudden we’re supposed to say no
61:52
she’s a woman
61:52
she’s dainty she’s got size 14 feet
61:56
she’s got gorilla hands like the fuck’s
61:58
he doing sir so I think as you said
62:01
earlier it’s she is a woman but for the
62:03
purposes of competition yeah against
62:05
other women you know legally she’s a
62:07
woman at that stage right if she goes
62:08
through that identity transition but I
62:10
think we have to recognize and I think
62:12
even many traditional feminists are
62:14
making this point you match to the anger
62:17
of the trans community they’re saying
62:19
hold on your what you’re doing in this
62:20
way is actually we fought so hard and so
62:22
long for these female spaces where we
62:26
have a space of our own and now people
62:28
that used to be men are coming into
62:29
those spaces and actually quite
62:30
literally beating the crap out of us yes
62:33
yes you know whether it’s in boxing
62:35
whether it’s in weightlifting in martial
62:37
arts they are – by definition they’re
62:41
dominating all this of course they are
62:42
for the reasons you said experts that
62:44
they’re calling upon or almost all
62:46
transition doctors surgeons or people
62:50
that have transitioned themselves when
62:52
they speak to actual board-certified
62:54
endocrinologist some of the only do it
62:56
off record but one of them forget her
63:01
name she was in one of the big mixed
63:03
martial arts publications Ramona cross
63:05
sick I believe is her name she’s saying
63:08
no not only does it it it actually doing
63:11
this transition like from male to female
63:14
you’re forcing your you’re putting
63:17
estrogen into the system so the bone
63:19
density change that would ordinarily
63:20
take place if you remove someone’s
63:22
testicles and stop that just the
63:24
production of testosterone estrogen
63:26
preserves bone density so you’re
63:28
actually retaining the male bone density
63:31
there’s so many problems with this and
63:33
that and that one of the other things
63:35
they say well oh the Olympics the
63:37
Olympics allow it the Olympics are very
63:39
ideologically based there’s not a whole
63:41
lot of science to this to this
63:42
transition thing of allowing male to
63:45
female athletes to compete in the
63:47
Olympics and there’s a stream amount of
63:50
corruption in the Olympics as it is with
63:52
the IOC being in bed with wada the world
63:55
anti-doping agency and the way they
63:56
handle this Russian scandal I mean this
63:58
Russian scandal that was highlighted in
64:00
that fantastic documentary Icarus yeah I
64:03
was like they’re fucking crazy
64:04
the
64:05
Olympics are not to be trusted that is a
64:07
gigantic multi-billion dollar business
64:09
where the athletes get paid zero money
64:11
it is inherently corrupt from the top
64:13
down no doubt about it so to call upon
64:16
them is to see who should be competing
64:19
as a woman fuck off they’re not the
64:22
experts this is this is not something
64:23
that’s been examined and this is coming
64:25
from someone who one of my jobs is
64:27
examining and commentating on fights
64:30
that is a big part of what I do
64:32
I understand fights and I know what it
64:34
looks like when a man’s beating the shit
64:35
out of a woman and that’s what it looked
64:37
like when this person was fighting women
64:38
it was there was a massive physical
64:40
advantage massive and not a scintilla
64:42
advantage what was the way you mention
64:43
something about the reaction that you go
64:44
to that what was the trouble you gonna
64:46
tell people are so mad at me I mean it
64:47
was just so many not only that they took
64:49
my words out of context they quoted of
64:52
all these different gender transition
64:55
doctors at saying that there’s no
64:57
science behind this and the science
64:59
behind it being totally fair and totally
65:01
equal it’s just not and people know it
65:04
everyone knows it they could they
65:06
couldn’t put Chris cyborg against this
65:07
guy and give him a run for his money
65:09
wrong way classer that’s the other way
65:12
that’s the other thing and we’re dealing
65:13
with a similar situation like that in
65:15
Texas I don’t know about the girl who
65:17
was which was born a girl she’s
65:19
transitioning to a boy in high school
65:21
taking testosterone but in Texas they
65:24
only allow her to compete as a girl so
65:26
she’s dominated the Texas State
65:27
wrestling championship two years in a
65:29
row and it’s horrific because she’s on
65:31
steroids she’s on testosterone and it
65:35
doesn’t matter because they’re testing
65:37
chromosome yeah she’s a woman she was
65:39
born a woman right she’s born a girl
65:41
so because the fact that she’s
65:42
transitioning to be a boy they don’t
65:44
give a shit you’re a woman you’re not
65:45
gonna wrestle against men you’re a girl
65:47
you’re not gonna wrestle against boys so
65:49
they’ve allowed her under extreme
65:51
protest mitts terrible she wants to
65:53
compete or he I should say wants to
65:54
compete as a boy they won’t let him they
65:58
say no you were born a girl you have to
65:59
compete as a girl so when he competes
66:02
everybody boos it’s awesome it’s fucking
66:04
awful I mean it’s it’s it’s really that
66:07
question for you that way around if it’s
66:09
female to male transition somebody that
66:13
used to be a woman that transitions to a
66:16
man and wants to compete with the men
66:17
they don’t have it
66:18
zone you’re allowed to read of this
66:21
advance if they win in that context they
66:23
actually done really good yes right look
66:25
women can beat men yeah I mean it
66:27
happens all the time in jujitsu there’s
66:29
especially in jujitsu in particularly
66:30
because it’s such a technique based art
66:32
but it is possible there’s there’s also
66:35
a woman named Germaine jaronda me who’s
66:37
world-class mixed martial artist who’s
66:39
multiple time world Muay Thai champion
66:40
who fought a man and knocked him out
66:42
it’s a crazy video she was a real man ko
66:45
time with a straight right it’s it is
66:47
possible for them to win if their skill
66:49
level is so far superior that it
66:52
overcomes the inherent strength
66:53
advantages but a woman – male transition
66:57
would be at a severe disadvantage
66:58
against the natural man so would you be
67:00
so in that Texas case they clearly have
67:02
it wrong they should allow they should
67:04
allow him to compete with yes and would
67:07
you be whereas I can I think all three
67:09
of us probably instinctively would
67:10
resist the notion that a female that a
67:13
male to female athlete competes with
67:16
other females because they’d have enough
67:17
quad resist that yes but would you be
67:19
for a female to male athlete competing
67:22
with men yes because I don’t think
67:24
there’s no there’s no better but here’s
67:26
the problem and again the consent is
67:28
sort of running in the other he is
67:30
continually putting herself or he’s
67:32
putting her right in my way knowingly
67:35
and I’m not opposed to a woman fighting
67:38
a man if she so chooses
67:39
like I’m not opposed to bull riding yeah
67:41
if you wanted I’m not you know lobbying
67:44
to get bull riding outlawed but if you
67:45
want to be so fucking stupid that you
67:47
climb on top of a 2,000 pound angry
67:49
animal go for it yeah you should be able
67:52
to do whatever you want I think you
67:53
should be able to jump out of fairly
67:54
good air on airplanes if you want to
67:56
parachute you should be able to risk
67:57
your life parachuting the difference
68:00
lies in just massive advantages and that
68:03
there’s a massive advantage in
68:04
transitioning from male to female female
68:07
to male here’s the other problem female
68:09
to male you have to take testosterone
68:10
you can’t legally take testosterone and
68:13
compete it’s been a giant issue in mixed
68:15
martial arts because for the longest
68:17
time there was a loophole and the
68:18
loophole was testosterone therapy and
68:20
they were allowing testosterone
68:22
replacement therapy for male athletes
68:24
that were either older or it’s it was a
68:27
it was a symptom of having pituitary
68:31
gland
68:32
which comes from head trauma which come
68:34
which means really essentially your
68:36
career should be over yeah your your
68:37
body’s not producing hormones correctly
68:40
and that’s a very common issue with
68:41
people that have been in war people that
68:44
have been blown up by IEDs people that
68:46
have been hit a lot even soccer players
68:48
a lot of times there’s show diminished
68:51
levels of testosterone and growth
68:52
hormone because of to eteri gland damage
68:54
so you wouldn’t even allow that so a
68:56
female to male would be in a whole
68:59
nother problem in combat sports because
69:01
it’s not legal for you to take
69:02
testosterone and compete to bring this
69:06
full circle back to me sitting at the
69:08
pool destroy about to destroy my
69:09
vacation on twitter how long did you
69:11
spend working on this article what
69:13
another thing it’s so again this was
69:14
your wife must hate to do that how much
69:17
does she matter well it was kind of the
69:20
perfect storm but there were there were
69:21
a few things that that relieve the
69:23
pressure one is there was another family
69:25
from our school so they’re like well
69:27
mark my daughter had a friend that said
69:30
that we that my wife could socialize
69:31
with and having another couple there
69:34
forced me to sort of put on my social
69:36
phase at dinner and and I mean it’s not
69:48
to say to describe it that way he’s
69:50
putting on your social phase it actually
69:52
changes your psychology I mean like if
69:53
you have if you if you have to drop your
69:55
problem in order to be a normal sane
69:57
person with people you don’t know all
69:58
that well you’re actually a happier more
70:00
normal person if it had just been me and
70:02
my wife at dinner while I’m dealing with
70:04
this blow up it just you know it’s just
70:05
never would’ve the cloud wouldn’t
70:06
wouldn’t have left so anyway I I was
70:12
trying so I was trying not to engage and
70:14
so I didn’t want to have to write
70:15
anything new to deal with this the this
70:17
what I viewed is just an egregious
70:20
attack on on my intellectual and moral
70:23
integrity and so when I saw this article
70:27
from Klein I realize I had this email
70:30
exchange with him at the end of which I
70:32
said listen if you if you continue to
70:35
slander me this is ahead for like a year
70:37
previously because there’s been released
70:39
I released so so I said but I said the
70:43
end of this exchange if you continue to
70:45
slander me
70:45
and if you misrepresent the reasons why
70:47
we didn’t do a podcast because we we had
70:49
had talked publicly about maybe sorting
70:52
this out on a podcast a year ago but I
70:54
found the exchange with him by emails so
70:57
in such bad faith I found him so evasive
70:59
and dishonest and again just plain
71:02
ideological ping-pong as you said and
71:04
not actually engaging my points that I
71:08
said listen if you if you lie about this
71:10
and you keep slandering me I’m just
71:11
gonna publish this email because because
71:13
I think the world should see how you
71:15
operate as a journalist and as an editor
71:17
like he he had declined to publish a far
71:20
more mainstream opinion defending me and
71:22
Marie an inbox I mean he it was just it
71:25
was truly you know slanderous and
71:27
misleading everything he’s published on
71:29
this topic and he has a huge platform I
71:31
wish to do it so which I enjoy I really
71:34
like what oh yeah no I mean if I I’ve
71:36
red fox with pleasure as well but it is
71:39
it it you know once you see how the
71:41
sausage gets made on many of these
71:43
things once you’re the news item you can
71:45
see that there’s very little
71:46
journalistic scruple in the in the
71:48
background there so I I was lit man I
71:53
didn’t want to have to spend my time on
71:55
vacation writing a retort to this thing
71:58
but I felt like I had to respond and
72:00
again this is an illusion there’s like a
72:01
sheer confection of looking at Twitter
72:05
if I hadn’t been looking at Twitter I
72:06
wouldn’t have felt I had to respond and
72:09
so I responded in the laziest possible
72:12
way which I just published the email
72:15
exchange because it’s already written I
72:16
don’t have to write anything you know I
72:17
just live those hits and essentially and
72:19
of course the rest of the world didn’t
72:20
know you’re actually meant to be on
72:21
vacation right now and so there’s no
72:24
context to them as to why you were still
72:28
III massively underestimated the amount
72:30
of work even my own fans would have to
72:33
do to understand why I was so angry in
72:36
that email exchange so I came off like
72:37
the angry bastard in the email exchange
72:39
and he came off as this you know just
72:43
open-minded ready to dialog guy whereas
72:46
if you follow the plot and you saw what
72:49
he had published about me and and Murray
72:51
previously this thing that has hit is
72:53
now on the hate watch page of SPLC
72:56
he was being totally disingenuous and
72:59
Ave
72:59
and just these responses you remember
73:01
they didn’t match to his article did
73:02
they not not at all and it was this
73:04
thing it was so yeah so I just kept
73:06
getting more tuned up and and so I
73:09
published this thing not realizing not I
73:13
mean I you know it was definitely
73:14
mistake to publish the email exchange
73:16
just just pragmatically not I don’t
73:18
think it was unethical because I told
73:21
him I was going to do it in advance if
73:23
he kept he kept it up it was just it was
73:27
totally counterproductive because it was
73:29
if he was far more reasonable emaddix
73:31
people in the original article what
73:33
seems like he that do a lot of work –
73:35
yeah yeah thing is he wasn’t it was
73:37
suited he was it was it was a an
73:40
appearance of reason but it was it was
73:42
not and then which so we finally did
73:44
this podcast a year hence you know this
73:48
is now my last podcast is now you know
73:50
two weeks ago and you know it was
73:53
basically as bad as I was expecting
73:56
and I basic I feel that I met the person
73:59
who I thought I was dealing with in the
74:01
email exchange and he was fundamentally
74:03
unresponsive to any of my points and you
74:07
know as you say Joe just trying to score
74:09
political points to his toward his
74:12
audience and the thing is he has a
74:14
what’s that mean there’s many there many
74:16
asymmetries here but one crucial one is
74:19
that he has an audience that doesn’t
74:22
care about whether or not he’s
74:25
responsive to the thing that his his
74:28
opponent or interlocutor just said right
74:30
it’s they’re not tracking it by that
74:33
metric they’re tracking it by are you
74:35
making the political points you win it
74:37
that are going that are massaging that
74:40
you know outrage part of our brains like
74:41
our ego
74:42
do you have your hands on our amygdala
74:44
you know and and are you pushing the
74:46
right buttons and so he’s talking about
74:49
racism and you know just the white
74:51
privilege and I’m granting him all of
74:53
that I’m said listen like let me tell
74:56
you why that’s not relevant to my
74:58
concerns and what happened here with
74:59
Murray I’m gonna I’m everything you’re
75:01
gonna say about the history of lynching
75:02
I’m gonna grant you right that’s not the
75:05
we don’t there’s no daylight between us
75:07
there and but the thing is I have an
75:09
audience that is that care is massively
75:12
about
75:13
following the logical conversation if
75:16
somebody makes a point in frustrating
75:17
that is even close to being a good in
75:21
response to me my audience is like you
75:24
know okay Sam what the fuck are you
75:25
gonna say to that yes right and if and
75:26
if I drop that ball I I lose massive
75:29
points right whereas I’m often finding
75:31
myself in conversation with people who
75:33
don’t have to care about those kinds of
75:35
audience that was the one I had one with
75:37
this Omar Aziz oh well that was title
75:40
the best podcast ever I mean he knows
75:42
his audience does not care about him
75:45
honestly representing in this case the
75:47
doctrine of Islam who was that guy even
75:49
I mean Ali says right fine you could say
75:50
okay editor of ox or whatever where did
75:52
you even find that Connie’s podcast
75:58
until this day I don’t even know who
76:00
this bloke is this guy is some crazy guy
76:03
me and auntie me it was because at one
76:07
point he was going on about me being
76:08
some form of enabler of your bigotry and
76:10
yeah well yeah be your own Uncle Tom
76:12
yeah I could see this is that this is
76:18
why it’s so frustrating because I have
76:19
pretty much memorized inside out back to
76:22
front these lannister ideological
76:23
narrative and I could sit here right now
76:25
and play that game with you the game of
76:28
ping pong yeah without conceding
76:29
anything and this is where you know I
76:31
feel our conversation went really well
76:33
because it was stripped away from all of
76:36
that bullshit and we had a genuine
76:38
conversation it still to this day very
76:40
easy for me to to play the tune of the
76:45
Islamist and score those points
76:47
especially because some of what I’ve
76:49
been through
76:49
yeah and score those points and just get
76:52
locked in a essentially it’s ego but
76:55
it’s it’s a it’s it’s it’s not an
76:56
intellectual conversation it’s a it’s
76:58
it’s a game of you know who’s who is
77:00
basically checking the right boxes in
77:03
their own little confirmation bias to
77:04
their own audience that doesn’t interest
77:07
me but it’s frustrating you’re also
77:09
you’re also the best person on the other
77:11
side of that conversation now so there’s
77:13
a series of videos on YouTube I think
77:15
it’s called Merry Christmas mr. Islamist
77:17
yeah that’s right and so on YouTube you
77:19
can look at him hit it against people
77:22
who are playing this game you know
77:23
Islamists and and jihadis of various
77:25
sorts you
77:26
and that he modest is meeting them on
77:29
your interview shows you mostly in the
77:31
UK where they’re pretending to be more
77:35
benign than they are and that it
77:36
monitors you know finding the question
77:38
that sort of pulls back the mask on the
77:41
theocrats hilarious it’s it’s very fun
77:43
well you’re that one video that you
77:45
publish on your blog I’ve sent to dozens
77:48
of my friends the one video where
77:50
there’s this guy and he’s addressing
77:51
this enormous group of people and he’s
77:53
talking about is this radical Islam or
77:55
is this Islam that was I think a
77:57
conference in Norway yeah that was just
77:59
I mean he’s not straight up in Islamist
78:02
jihadist addressing a crowd of seemingly
78:05
mainstream Muslims in Norway and but he
78:07
just by show of hands you know is it you
78:10
know are we extremists if we think
78:11
apostates or COPD it’s it’s pretty it’s
78:14
stunning it’s an amazing document in
78:16
yeah in respect to the way they want to
78:18
treat homosexuals apostates I mean the
78:21
whole thing is is this Islam or is this
78:23
radical Islam talking of ideology
78:26
blinking statistical data on the subject
78:29
of homosexuality so in the United
78:31
Kingdom a poll was done last year asking
78:34
so there have been two polls gauging
78:36
public Muslim attitudes towards gays the
78:40
first asked how many Muslims in the UK
78:42
find homosexuality morally acceptable
78:44
and zero percent this is by the way by a
78:48
professional polling company it’s not
78:50
just some student that’s devised a poll
78:52
on Twitter a professional polling
78:54
company found that zero percent of
78:55
British Muslims responded to a poll
78:58
saying that they found homosexuality
78:59
morally acceptable and then a year later
79:02
which now last year another poll was was
79:05
conducted and that was an ICM poll
79:08
asking whether British Mazda how many
79:11
British Muslims believed the
79:13
homosexuality should be criminalized or
79:15
remain legal and I think it was roughly
79:18
52% 52% if my memory serves incorrectly
79:21
said of British Muslims said that they
79:23
would wish for homosexuality to be
79:25
criminalized and of course what does
79:27
criminalization of homosexuality mean
79:29
under Sharia and traditional Islamic
79:32
jurisprudence we know that it’s
79:34
punished by death so these are these
79:38
this is scientific data from gauging you
79:40
know attitudes British Muslim attitudes
79:42
towards homosexuality but the
79:44
ideological blinkers will will kick in
79:47
and refuse to see that truth and these
79:49
aren’t Islamists unfortunately my
79:50
dialogue with Sam we talked about this
79:51
that there are the Islamists who want to
79:53
who actively want to take over a country
79:55
and enforce their version of Islam then
79:57
there’s underneath that there’s a softer
79:59
landing of very very conservative
80:01
stroked fundamentalist attitudes that
80:04
unfortunately have become widespread and
80:06
here is an example of it that is that is
80:08
being gauged by scientific polling
80:10
methodology that tells us there’s a
80:12
problem and unfortunately if one were to
80:14
speak in this way especially in in
80:18
Europe one is received by my own
80:21
political tribe and that’s liberals
80:23
center-left and further one is met with
80:27
denial and called a bigot simply for
80:30
relaying these facts a quarter of
80:32
British Muslims when asked about the
80:35
massacre at the Charlie Hebdo offices in
80:37
Paris a quarter said that those attacks
80:41
are justifiable they sympathized with
80:42
the attackers as opposed to the victims
80:45
who were the staff at the Charlie Hebdo
80:46
offices so this is what led you to be
80:50
put on the southern sovereign speaking
80:53
in these terms and unfortunately it’s
80:55
reporting polling data and what it does
80:57
for me is to say this is why it’s so
80:59
important to address these issues to
81:00
have these conversations to try and
81:03
empower those Muslim voices that are
81:04
seeking to challenge this sort of these
81:06
sorts of attitudes and and carve out a
81:09
space and if you know if if one can do
81:12
that with Catholicism in Europe and go
81:14
through a Reformation and end up with an
81:16
Enlightenment and end up with secularism
81:17
in the West what I often say is American
81:21
liberals are very happy challenging
81:23
their own Bible Belt and yet we have a
81:25
Quran Belt within our communities and if
81:28
I’m attempting to replicate the
81:30
equivalent of challenging the Bible Belt
81:32
within Muslim communities it means
81:33
addressing these issues and yet they
81:35
grant to themselves the right to
81:37
challenge the Bible Belt within America
81:40
and yet if we were to challenge what I
81:41
call the Quran belt in Europe we
81:43
suddenly called bigots
81:45
you know and Islamophobes is this is
81:48
this static has this been moving has it
81:51
been adjusting and changing is there any
81:53
sort of a recognition that there’s an
81:55
issue with this so you know the
81:57
emergence of Isis really did bring it to
81:59
the fore and it really did quieten some
82:02
of the voices it also did increase the
82:04
hysteria from the far left because they
82:06
began panicking thinking actually we’re
82:08
gonna lose this debate and that’s where
82:09
I noticed their labeling became even
82:12
stronger but the emergence of Isis did
82:14
wake up a lot of people to to the
82:16
challenges we’re facing here because so
82:18
many European born and raised Muslims
82:20
went over to join Isis and of course
82:22
think about it in this sense the most
82:23
infamous and notorious execution cell
82:26
that I think were erroneously called the
82:29
the jihadi Beatles in the press because
82:31
actually it really does it’s an insult
82:34
to the Beatles but it was a diminishes
82:35
the true horror you have these guys you
82:37
know they called him jihadi John and but
82:39
the ISIS execution is basically that
82:40
entire cell of the the media face of
82:44
Isis execution cell were all British
82:46
Muslims and that should tell you
82:47
something that we’ve got the worst
82:49
terrorist group educator I mean the
82:50
thing is university graduate like every
82:52
variable that the the far left wants to
82:55
marshal to explain this phenomenon like
82:58
lack of educational opportunity lack of
82:59
Economic Opportunity lack of social
83:01
integration mental illness a you you can
83:04
all you can find people who had massive
83:07
opportunity I mean City were I mean you
83:09
weren’t a jihadist but you were an
83:10
Islamist but let me you’re a person who
83:12
that’s right and basically play any game
83:14
he want to mere you like it is he’s he’s
83:16
he’s somebody who back to the Superman
83:18
he can run he can run for political
83:19
office
83:20
he hasn’t been elected yet but he you
83:22
know he should be I mean this is the
83:25
quarterback of the football team in the
83:28
the this context he is a candidate for a
83:31
recruitment wealth I think a think of it
83:32
this way we’ve got the worst terrorist
83:34
group in our lifetime it one can
83:36
reasonably say is Isis right the worst
83:38
terrorist group at least in living
83:39
memory is Isis and the worst cell
83:42
analysis the execution cell came from a
83:45
fully developed for want of a better
83:49
term first world country and that was
83:50
Britain and mohammed emwazi the leader
83:53
of that execution cell graduated from
83:55
the University of Westminster was given
83:57
as a young child was given political
83:59
asylum by Britain because his family
84:00
were Kuwaiti and they fled the invasion
84:03
of Kuwait by Saddam Hussein the country
84:05
that the West liberated and he turned
84:08
against that country so he had every
84:10
reason to like Britain Britain gave my
84:12
home gave him a actually physically
84:14
bricks-and-mortar house gave his family
84:16
on social costs they gave him social
84:18
housing they educated he graduated from
84:20
University and they liberated his
84:21
father’s country from an aggressor and
84:23
this man turned against this country
84:26
that helped him and his family and his
84:27
nation was he captured or did he’s dead
84:31
what one of them has been captured but
84:32
he’s currently being held in Turkey
84:34
would it would be fascinating to listen
84:36
to his rationale it’s not so that the
84:39
other why I forgot his name but he was
84:41
just interviewed you know you don’t get
84:43
a lot out of him
84:44
he was interviewed by female Arab
84:45
journalists so on and dismissive
84:51
character he refused to talk about much
84:54
he said you know these are accurate
84:55
accusations and allegations you’re
84:57
making and I will wait to trial in the
85:01
end he kind of cut the interview short
85:02
he seemed a little put out that she was
85:04
a woman oh yeah he did so as I’m looking
85:06
at you now imagine she’s the interview
85:08
and and and and she’s asking me
85:10
questions and I’m looking in this
85:11
direction
85:12
she literally never laid eyes on her
85:18
[Laughter]
85:21
it’s so intense it’s such it like as you
85:24
say radioactive subject to just it’s
85:27
it’s just fascinating to watch white
85:29
liberal progressives just scamper away
85:32
from this well but the flip the flip
85:34
side of the ISIS thing has been the
85:36
refugee crisis which has made which has
85:39
really empowered both extremes frankly
85:42
that the far left and the far right so
85:44
you have the far right you obviously
85:47
with the wind in their sails worrying
85:50
about this influx of people from the
85:53
Middle East and and you know and beyond
85:55
North Africa and just the change of
85:58
culture in their societies and a lot of
86:01
these concerns are plausible but because
86:03
only the far right and a few other
86:05
decent people like Douglas Murray will
86:08
talk about the plausible concerns
86:11
the space has just been vacated so you
86:13
just have the far right but if our
86:15
far-right populist politics being and
86:17
enabled and then you have this
86:19
delusional open borders left that won’t
86:22
we’ve got to talk about the huge problem
86:25
I told Sam about this but it bears
86:27
repeating I was having a conversation
86:29
with someone as an executive at YouTube
86:30
and I asked them why someone got a
86:33
Community Guidelines strike on their
86:34
account because they posted up a video
86:36
on their playlist that they enjoyed of
86:38
Sam Harris and Douglas Murray engaged in
86:42
a conversation I go why would that get
86:45
you a Community Guidelines strike and
86:46
this woman said because it’s hate speech
86:48
I got a problem with the last you see
86:50
sorry apparently Douglas Murray caused
86:52
me problems somebody worked yes she was
86:55
a big executive equate YouTube
86:57
she said it’s hate speech and I told her
86:59
I go did you listen to it I go you
87:01
didn’t listen to it I go this is
87:02
stunning that you would just say it’s
87:03
hate speech then you just be so
87:06
dismissive of it so quickly and she
87:08
talked to me as if I was her employee
87:10
like I was not allowed to question her
87:12
and she was just gonna say what she said
87:13
and I was gonna shut up and it was a
87:15
fascinating conversation no no no why on
87:19
vacation no but it was I did a podcast
87:21
with Douglas and apparently it got
87:23
flagged someone else put it up on their
87:25
account and I got flagged as hate speech
87:27
and strikes you can get your account
87:30
removed so I’ve got a phrase for this
87:32
and I’ve been I’ve been rallying for it
87:33
on social media for a couple of months
87:35
now and I call it a digital blind spot
87:38
there’s a cultural bias on social media
87:41
where because of and it’s intellectually
87:44
lazy because because social media is
87:46
essentially a Californian invention
87:48
right and we’re in the home state of
87:50
where most of this came from
87:51
it’s got a very Californian based
87:54
worldview which cares a lot about white
87:56
supremacy and doesn’t care about many
87:59
other forms of bigotry that exist out
88:00
there in the rest of the world which by
88:02
the way is the majority of the world so
88:04
on Twitter right now of course there’s
88:06
Miley Annapolis has been banned
88:08
Tommy Robinson has been banned as in
88:11
taken off now Twitter’s a private camere
88:12
onsen he’s the former leader of the
88:14
British English Defence League which was
88:17
at one time Europe’s largest anti-muslim
88:19
street protest group
88:20
I helped him leave that organization is
88:22
still what many views I completely
88:24
agree with but nevertheless he doesn’t
88:26
support or nor advocate for terrorism
88:28
why was he removed well so Twitter is a
88:31
private company it can choose to remove
88:33
whoever it wants for whatever reason and
88:34
we will judge it for us inconsistencies
88:35
but he was ostensibly removed for hate
88:37
speech as was Milo unitless
88:39
now the point being that still till this
88:43
day and before people misquote me and
88:45
completely say that I’m now defending
88:47
hate speech and and it’s and their right
88:50
to speak with hateful views on Twitter
88:52
this is my actual point that till this
88:54
day did you know that Hezbollah which is
88:58
a known and recognized terrorist
89:00
organization
89:01
so forget hate speech for a moment a
89:03
terrorist organization that believes in
89:05
actually killing civilians and Hamas a
89:08
known and recognized terrorist
89:10
organization that believes in bombing
89:12
babies on buses as a form of resistance
89:14
they still have accounts on Twitter and
89:18
my point is is that this is the this is
89:20
the blind spot you know that and I’ve
89:22
flagged Twitter about this on many an
89:24
occasion this is the cultural blind spot
89:26
this is the digital blind spot that the
89:28
dude sitting in California in wherever
89:31
who is monitoring this stuff and it’s
89:33
probably more than one person they don’t
89:35
give a shit that there’s some Brown
89:37
person in the Gaza Strip that believes
89:40
it’s okay to kill Jewish babies they
89:42
don’t give a shit because it’s a brown
89:44
person saying it in the name of Islam
89:46
what they care about is a non-violent
89:49
yet says stupid things guy because he’s
89:52
white called Tommy Robinson in England
89:54
or Milo u Annapolis saying stuff that
89:56
they obviously that touches their
89:58
sensitivities and it’s so intellectually
90:00
lazy to flag that immediately and to bar
90:02
it from social media because you’re
90:04
comfortable with it you recognize white
90:06
supremacy it doesn’t take any effort to
90:08
recognize it you don’t have to invest in
90:09
studying this stuff to know what white
90:11
supremacy is it takes a bit of effort to
90:14
study brown people’s ideas that you’re
90:16
unfamiliar with and recognize here’s a
90:19
terrorist organization that’s freely
90:20
operating on social media I know
90:22
specifically on Twitter
90:23
I’ve actually pulled up their handles I
90:25
think one of the concerns that Twitter
90:27
has and I think this is a valid concern
90:29
is that when you have people there
90:30
saying hateful things and you have
90:32
people that are saying whether it’s
90:34
white supremacy or whatever even if it’s
90:35
stupid yeah
90:37
problem is there’s a rallying cry of
90:39
trolls that follow behind them and it
90:42
builds up momentum and it gets pretty
90:44
stunning and that was what was happening
90:45
with Milo and by silencing Milo off
90:49
Twitter they have essentially removed
90:51
him from the public discourse you don’t
90:53
hear about him what’s right because of
90:55
this because of these things but imagine
90:58
what that does in Arabic with the
90:59
terrorist groups yes but there’s there
91:00
everything you’ve just said by the way I
91:02
agree with and multiply that for groups
91:05
that have infrastructure in multiple
91:06
countries with actual organizational
91:09
hierarchies and planned means of
91:11
distributing their ideas across entire
91:14
populations physically fighting in Wars
91:16
right now such as Hezbollah in Syria
91:18
killing Sunni Muslim rebels you know and
91:20
so imagine that and the and the way
91:22
you’re able to rally a mob in Pakistan
91:24
on blasphemy as an example all it takes
91:27
for some person on social media to
91:28
accuse another person or blasphemy and
91:30
they’re probably gonna get killed the
91:31
very next day where and it happens all
91:32
the time but but because these
91:34
californian based social media companies
91:36
are unaware of of the of the cultural
91:39
implications of those sorts of
91:40
organizations and groups and listed
91:42
terrorist groups mind you they are
91:44
there’s completely no no barring on any
91:46
of their activity there’s also the same
91:48
thing that you have with YouTube and
91:50
with a lot of these other social media
91:52
organizations and companies is they
91:54
don’t have to respond or give you any
91:57
reasons they can say it violates our
92:00
Terms but what are those terms those
92:02
terms aren’t even listed it would be
92:03
vague like no hate speech okay well
92:05
what’s hate speech like what do you say
92:07
like what is what are you what is your
92:09
clear policy what are your guidelines
92:12
how does someone avoid violating your
92:14
guidelines they don’t say yeah and how
92:16
is the president the United States not
92:17
of not violating those yeah well the
92:20
monetization is another way that they do
92:22
it they’ll remove the ability to put
92:23
advertising on a conversation that they
92:26
don’t like and it doesn’t have to be
92:28
like my conversation with Douglas Murray
92:29
was Dumont’s not without any explanation
92:32
none zero then we have Douglas his he’s
92:37
yeah but if you’ve listened to our act
92:40
the actual context of our conversation
92:42
there’s nothing even remotely remotely
92:44
hateful about it yeah yeah I mean these
92:47
are private companies they’ve got the
92:48
right to to choose whatever policy the
92:50
only
92:50
thing I would expect from a private
92:52
company show a consistent policy towards
92:54
these things you know if you don’t like
92:56
hate speech then Brown Band Brown people
92:58
who are also advocating more than just
92:59
the hate speech but actually preaching
93:01
violent terrorism right yeah it’s a
93:03
strange time for this man because it’s
93:06
it’s also a time where it’s you can
93:09
communicate so instantaneously it’s
93:11
fantastic in that regard you can get
93:13
ideas out so quickly but these hubs of
93:17
information like where the information
93:19
gets distributed are they’re controlled
93:22
by people that I don’t think ever knew
93:24
that they were going to have this sort
93:26
of responsibility I don’t think I think
93:27
you’re seeing that with Zuckerberg and
93:29
these trials or the the the speeches
93:32
that he’s given in front of Congress
93:33
like when you see him on television
93:35
talking about it you get the sense that
93:37
this is a guy that never prepared for
93:39
this had no idea this was going to
93:40
happen and then all of a sudden from
93:42
this simple social media platform that
93:45
was supposed to be friends sharing
93:47
photos and just talking about girls yeah
93:50
no sense of yeah put women there’s a lot
93:53
of that you know but I mean – and what
93:55
was Twitter I mean Twitter was
93:56
essentially just you know I mean you
93:57
remember the old days of Twitter it
93:59
would be you would use your name it like
94:03
is doing this like Sam under Sam Harris
94:06
like Sam Harris is at the movies you
94:08
would say that almost if you were in a
94:10
third person that was the original form
94:12
that people would use Twitter come after
94:14
that it was weird it was a weird way of
94:16
talking and then people started just
94:18
writing what they thought yeah and it
94:21
just became and then became ideology and
94:24
then it became sharing links sharing
94:27
links and interesting articles is a big
94:28
part of it but to me that’s the only
94:31
good part of it now like I got like I’ve
94:34
just discovered that and that was as
94:37
most of my attachment to it I genuinely
94:40
use it to ask you as a curated news
94:43
because I follow interesting people they
94:45
say they tweet interesting stuff and I
94:47
and I consumed it that way but noticing
94:50
what’s coming back at me in the at
94:52
mansion so I put something out you know
94:54
with my podcast and then I look to see
94:56
how it’s being received on Twitter and I
94:58
don’t tend to do that in other forums I
95:01
don’t really look at facebook comments
95:03
much
95:03
I don’t look at YouTube on YouTube it’s
95:06
just a cesspool right I mean so so even
95:08
if therefore you that the comments are
95:09
horrible nastiness started on the
95:17
youtube comment friends it’s and then
95:18
spread everywhere else very strange but
95:20
so I but one thing I found that you you
95:22
can change that your settings in Twitter
95:24
where you you screen out people who
95:27
don’t have you know just have Twitter
95:30
egg photos they don’t have a real photo
95:31
you can screen out people who haven’t
95:33
had their email confirmed and I think I
95:36
just did those two things and like 90%
95:39
of the hate went away it was amazing
95:41
like it just just doing that thank you
95:45
for you should do that except I’m think
95:47
it’s better to not actually even look at
95:49
what’s coming back at you
95:51
well you’ve taken it off your phone no I
95:52
think so too I think looking looking at
95:55
it – virus my wife Rachel will be very
95:57
happy with that I think she’d probably
95:59
wish that I did the city you tweak on it
96:02
to do you think I don’t react sometimes
96:05
I like to think I don’t react in this
96:07
way but I mean I can’t I can’t say that
96:09
cuz actually probably I have sometimes
96:10
but but you know I get all that same
96:12
kind of I get it’s interesting because I
96:14
took I took a stance on the serious
96:16
strikes and that’s your stance well I
96:18
just think that um especially now in
96:21
hindsight we’re there now no casualties
96:23
involved at all there are only three
96:25
injuries I think we had to take a stance
96:27
that succeeded where Obama failed in in
96:31
making sure that redline was maintained
96:32
that the use of chemical weapons cannot
96:34
be tolerated even if it was symbolic
96:36
even it was highly symbolic I think
96:38
sometimes symbolism is important so I
96:40
took that stance and it wasn’t got a lot
96:43
of love on Twitter oh yeah of course
96:44
because it’s actually that’s against the
96:45
grain public opinion at the moment is is
96:47
it was against the strikes and I fully
96:48
acknowledge that when I took the stance
96:49
right but I argued a case and I set the
96:52
case out and both on my sky news show i
96:54
have a show a co-host on the pledge and
96:56
also on my radio show on LBC I
96:58
repeatedly argue for why I think is
97:00
important that we don’t allow for
97:02
chemical weapons and they used to become
97:03
normalized in our world and so it was
97:06
interesting because I posted the sky
97:07
news clip of me sort of talking to
97:09
camera about my reasons for this and and
97:12
I have this screen grab of the reaction
97:15
it’s just a puddle of blood so it is the
97:19
two extremes completely they actually
97:21
started fighting with each other about
97:23
who’s right about her so I’ve said look
97:25
there here’s a clip why we must
97:26
intervene is here after that come up
97:27
with that blah blah first one is a guy
97:29
with an actual swastika Nazi symbol on
97:31
his profile and it says you know that
97:34
Nordic Scot as his handle Thomas James
97:36
he says Majid wants Britain to intervene
97:38
in Syria because Putin and Assad are
97:40
kicking his Isis buddies arses end of
97:42
story right so there’s a guy is
97:43
basically saying what my real reason for
97:45
calling for that is because I’m
97:46
supporting Isis against the Assad regime
97:48
the guy immediately after responds to
97:51
him and it’s called at last oh right and
97:53
he says what are you on about you Nazi
97:55
dumbest Majid is funded by you’re not
97:57
he’s a far I Uncle Tom captures that but
98:05
they’re arguing with each other over
98:07
whether I’m in there cut his camp or his
98:09
camp basically you never have the worst
98:12
publicist in the world or the best one
98:14
so I should I think I should take myself
98:15
out of that equation let them find each
98:17
other it would be even better really
98:18
that’s the move just set something like
98:20
that up set the far right and the far
98:22
left against each other and you could
98:23
just like sneak away while they’re
98:25
fighting yeah that’s how nuts it is I
98:28
mean the the kind of horses you know the
98:31
extremes are I mean they’re equally
98:36
irrational and the fact that you could
98:38
be at the epicenter of each prompt of
98:42
both of their problems yeah you’re
98:43
Europe covert jihadist and you’re an
98:46
anti-muslim bigot it seems like there’s
98:48
more conspiracy theories in in terms of
98:51
like what someone’s actual motivation
98:53
for what they’re saying now than ever
98:54
before to because it’s so easy to
98:56
express them so someone could say no you
98:58
know he’s far-right or no you’re you’re
99:00
you’re just trying to support Isis yeah
99:03
like this this is this ability to like
99:05
find some nefarious reason for your
99:07
actions but again it’s reducing one’s
99:09
opinion to the lowest yes base you know
99:12
dodgy motive as opposed to applying the
99:14
principle of charity so if Joe says
99:16
something now I can either sit her and
99:18
actually think no I don’t trust this guy
99:20
I don’t respect him and therefore I’m
99:22
gonna reduce his opinion to the worst
99:24
possible interpretation that he could
99:25
possibly mean and then use that against
99:27
him
99:28
or I could continue to ask what you mean
99:30
by that because I’m assuming you’re a
99:32
good decent human being in origin and
99:34
perhaps you mean something that I
99:35
haven’t yet quite grasped and then I’ll
99:36
see to clarify your own opinion in your
99:38
own words and I think it’s unfortunate
99:40
that many of our conversations today and
99:43
the far left is as guilty of it as the
99:44
far right and they like to think they’re
99:46
not which is part of that righteousness
99:47
that blinds them from actually
99:49
committing this very same injustice they
99:51
accuse the far right of committing and
99:52
that is a it’s the same bigotry in in a
99:55
mirror image I call it the bigotry of
99:57
low expectations the low expectations
99:59
they have that Muslims are somehow
100:01
unable to adhere to a common decent
100:02
liberal secular democratic values and so
100:05
it’s actually plaguing our conversation
100:07
stay if only we were able to strip away
100:10
our ideological baggage in entering
100:12
conversations and and allow for you know
100:14
that honest honest conversation but of
100:16
course we say that and then you try to
100:18
replicate our success on a number of
100:20
occasions and found yourself incredibly
100:22
frustrated well you know unfortunately I
100:26
found the one reasonable person to have
100:28
a fight with well it just seems like
100:30
this is a side effect of this increased
100:33
ability to communicate and that just
100:34
there’s so much noise and there’s so
100:37
much going on I mean it is the most
100:39
fantastic time for the distribution of
100:41
information there’s never been time yeah
100:43
where it’s so easy to distribute
100:44
information in human history it’s really
100:46
crazy but I don’t think we know what to
100:47
do with it and I think that when you
100:49
deal with people who have such rigid
100:51
ideologies and they find this incredibly
100:54
easy ability to express these ideologies
100:56
there’s just so much clashing it’s just
100:59
so much so much noise and nonsense and
101:01
when someone says something that they
101:05
know that they don’t have to back up
101:06
with facts because they know that
101:07
they’re there people were on their
101:08
position will support it you say the
101:10
right keywords you know right and
101:12
privilege whatever you want to say and
101:13
then boom you’re gonna get a whole slew
101:17
of people like those two people in your
101:18
your mentions battling it out with each
101:20
other you’re just like kind of picking
101:22
fights and starting these little fires
101:23
and letting other people go to war you
101:26
know what I think we’ve done and it’s
101:27
again the advent of social media is that
101:28
we I was speaking with my friend Mark
101:31
about this and we’ve democratized truth
101:34
and when you democratize truth in that
101:36
way the earlier thing you mentioned
101:39
about sports
101:40
that sports and your expertise in their
101:42
field if I had come back at you and
101:44
spoke at you with as much authority as
101:47
you claim in your expertise with having
101:50
absolutely no history in that expertise
101:52
whatsoever and assumed that I have as
101:55
equal right to an unresearched claim to
101:59
truth in my opinion as you do and who
102:01
has a lifetime of experience in that
102:04
field therein lies a problem that I am
102:06
arrogating to myself this notion this
102:09
this this kind of belief that my opinion
102:12
though I’ve got of course I have an
102:13
equally legal right to express it but it
102:15
doesn’t mean it carries the same weight
102:16
as your opinion when it comes to combat
102:18
sports and it shouldn’t unfortunately I
102:20
think what’s happened with the and were
102:22
still you could add you’re expressing
102:24
that opinion as a person of color or as
102:30
therefore it Sun criticize about by you
102:32
because his truth otherwise you’re
102:34
racist and it’s my task the key word
102:36
that it’s my truth you know and so the
102:38
problem with that is when you relativize
102:39
truth in that way is it there now I can
102:41
speak to you on on an equal footing
102:42
about combat sports which only a mad
102:45
person who hasn’t had that history in
102:46
combats what would think would arrogate
102:48
to themselves a right to do so but
102:49
social media I think has allowed for
102:51
that to happen I gave a TED talking
102:54
about I think it was roughly 2011 about
102:55
the the dangers of this happening and
102:57
social media dividing us all but I’d say
103:00
now that that’s if I were to pitch that
103:02
TED talk today I did it that Ted global
103:04
if I were to pitch that TED talk today
103:06
it wouldn’t be accepted because it’s not
103:09
something new now it’s it’s now people
103:10
know that how social medias has divided
103:12
us but back then it was new and
103:15
innovative art in offer as an idea for
103:17
Ted global to say we want you to speak
103:18
about this on and it’s still up online
103:20
but if people watched it today they’d
103:21
think how on earth did that become a TED
103:22
talk um
103:23
because there was this heady day back in
103:27
you know five six seven years ago this
103:29
kind of hope filled moment where
103:31
everyone thought Google Facebook and
103:33
Twitter and generally social media and
103:35
also tech companies were like the good
103:37
guys that these companies weren’t
103:39
actually companies that they were on our
103:41
side against the corporate world and it
103:43
turns out I think we’ve just hit this
103:44
moment he mentioned Zuckerberg we I
103:46
think we’ve culturally come to this
103:47
moment now where you know I think
103:50
symbolized by his testimony of Congress
103:51
that those that honeymoon period is over
103:54
people now view him I think quite firmly
103:57
and squarely as a CEO of a very rich
104:00
company as opposed to a guy in my club
104:04
that I’m friends with who’s on my side
104:05
against the world you know and that’s
104:07
how Google used to have that slogan
104:09
don’t do evil they still have it I mean
104:14
the problem is the the incentives are
104:16
all wrong and I’m sorry I was just at
104:18
Ted and well they give you a sense of
104:20
how far the rot has spread here so I was
104:22
I found myself at a dinner sitting next
104:24
to a neuroscientist who thought that it
104:28
was and this Ezra Klein thing followed
104:32
me around to Ted and I saw because many
104:33
people have listened to the podcast and
104:35
he thought Charles Marie should have
104:38
been physically attacked at Middlebury
104:40
this is a nurse is a neuroscientist
104:42
academic you know what you’re like a
104:45
impeccable person otherwise I think he
104:48
was after we wound up having a fight at
104:50
dinner over it I think he was somewhat
104:52
chagrined by having expressed that
104:53
opinion but I mean that’s how how
104:55
emotionally hijacked people are by this
104:57
issue and but it’s a that’s incredible
105:03
it was the other thing that’s new this
105:05
is the other thing that’s no the left
105:07
advocating for violence this is very new
105:10
yeah yeah I mean I always felt like the
105:12
the left was nonviolent the the whole
105:16
idea behind being progressive like
105:18
non-violence was was a genuine aspect of
105:21
that and free speech yeah two things yes
105:24
those are two things that have been sort
105:25
of stopped that this free speech is fine
105:28
as long as you’re not saying speech that
105:30
I disagree with and non-violence sure
105:33
unless we need to use violence which is
105:35
like and the people that are saying it
105:37
like if you watch these nt4 people like
105:40
Jesus Christ the most incompetent
105:41
violent people you’ve ever seen in your
105:43
life these guys practicing there’s
105:53
videos of anti feh they had they got
105:56
together and decided to train and
105:58
prepare for violence and so they’re
106:00
doing these martial arts classes they
106:02
have people teach them like holy shit
106:03
like the average high school kid could
106:06
fuck you guys up like this is the most
106:08
ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen in my
106:09
life but it’s almost like they’re they
106:11
realize that there’s not that much
106:14
danger in what they’re doing and they
106:16
can kind of play with danger they can
106:18
play with violence they can put the
106:20
masks on there that you know they’re not
106:22
in Israel they’re check out the Gaza
106:24
Strip show they’re a bunch of cowards
106:26
he’s a guy there’s a guy he went to my
106:27
old Universe I graduated from so ask
106:29
before I did my masters at the LSE so s
106:31
has been embroiled in a strike at the
106:32
moment as the Students Union has been
106:34
supporting professors who are on strike
106:36
and it’s over pension and pension rights
106:38
in a refused government refusing to
106:40
raise their pension rights and whatever
106:41
and some of the students came out in
106:43
strike far-left students defending the
106:46
professors and they put up they put
106:47
forward a ring preventing students from
106:49
attending their classes and an a female
106:53
black lecturer wanted to cross the
106:56
strike lines to go in to teach her
106:57
students a white male public school
107:02
educated very very middle class
107:05
protester far left physically attacked
107:08
her he physically attacked a female
107:10
black professor so gone is suddenly gone
107:14
is the white privilege gone is the male
107:16
attacking a female you know gone is all
107:18
of that is non-violence all the above
107:20
the name of ideology he legitimized and
107:23
allowed himself to attack of black
107:25
female by the way oh and she was also
107:26
Muslim black female this white kid is
107:36
just attack for wanting to teach my
107:38
class this is crazy this is crazy crazy
107:41
world we’re in man this is do you are
107:43
you optimistic about the future yeah I
107:50
say that because it’s going to take a
107:52
lifetime’s work and I don’t think that
107:53
in our lifetime much is gonna change I
107:57
think you know maybe for the next
107:59
generation what is it the picture of how
108:04
do you conceive of your job at the
108:05
moment and what what is the status quo I
108:08
mean so say for instance Isis the
108:10
Islamic state is sort of fading from
108:12
most people’s memory now I mean there’s
108:14
you know the even mine I’m spending much
108:16
less time thinking about it because it
108:18
seems to fit so let me tell you story in
108:19
into submission
108:20
can answer this question with a story so
108:22
radical which is my autobiography has a
108:23
u.s. publication right in the UK it’s
108:26
Random House Penguin it’s published by
108:27
the biggest publishing house when I came
108:29
to publish in the US I approached
108:32
publishing houses but it was after bin
108:34
Laden was killed and so when we
108:37
approached ten twenty whatever
108:38
publishing houses the problem solved
108:40
they all said no they say the problem
108:42
solved they said we think you know we
108:44
wish you’d come to us five years earlier
108:45
but problem solved now there’s not a
108:47
problem anymore and and a bit like what
108:50
you mentioned is sort of your expertise
108:51
and and I I have been consumed by this
108:54
subject all my life and there are a few
108:56
people on this planet that I would take
108:58
seriously on this subject outside
109:01
especially of Quilliam and there are
109:02
other organizations they have some
109:04
really good people but I know them all
109:05
and we regularly speak so I would say to
109:08
all these publishing houses I can assure
109:11
you 100% this problem not only has not
109:13
been solved it’s gonna come back around
109:15
in a far worse way than you can ever
109:17
have imagined this is before Isis came
109:19
along none of them believed me of course
109:22
what then happened my cookbook
109:24
eventually got published by some very
109:26
small publishing house in the US and has
109:28
done quite well for them but the point
109:30
of the story was this Isis came around
109:32
and people were suddenly like oh my god
109:34
where did this come from of course those
109:36
of us who had been monitoring the
109:37
situation knew this was going to come
109:39
back around very very heavy now the ISIS
109:42
had been pushed back and and this is
109:44
where this story is sort of the point of
109:45
the story is we’ve got to resist the
109:47
temptation to believe the problem has
109:49
been solved because the the organization
109:51
known as Isis which is an a bureaucracy
109:54
has been fought back but the ideology
109:56
upon which that organization was built
109:59
is still very much alive and it’s still
110:02
strong um what al Qaeda did while the
110:05
whole world was focused on Isis was
110:07
exploit that opportunity to rebuild and
110:10
regroup and they’ve been rebuilding in
110:12
Syria now they are stronger than they
110:15
have ever been even under bin Laden
110:17
because for the first time in the
110:19
history of that organization they are
110:21
firmly embedded within the Syrian
110:23
population as they genuinely kind of
110:25
viewed by the people that they were
110:27
fighting on behalf of as a grassroots
110:29
resistance organization whereas up
110:31
before that they were seen as a a tear
110:33
group that was like a you know just like
110:34
a vanguard they’ve embedded themselves
110:36
in the Syrian population in the Yemeni
110:38
Civil War they’ve embedded themselves in
110:40
North Africa East Africa and in Pakistan
110:42
and they are resurgent and they are
110:45
grooming Hamza Bin Ladin who has been
110:48
add-in son and they’re grooming him for
110:50
leadership and and a time will come
110:51
maybe in a couple of months maybe in a
110:53
couple of years where they announce
110:54
Hamza bin Laden as a new leader of
110:56
al-qaeda currently it’s Ayman Zawahiri
110:58
when they do that once their grooming
111:01
has been complete and assuming hamza
111:03
isn’t killed up until then all of the
111:06
fragments of what remains of isis will
111:09
probably rejoin al qaeda under hamza bin
111:11
Laden and you’ll have a stronger than
111:13
ever before al-qaeda organization and
111:15
we’ve got to we’ve got to remember that
111:17
we never expected Isis to emerge alqaeda
111:19
will come back with a vengeance what is
111:23
the the politics between the remnants of
111:27
Isis and al Qaeda
111:29
well Hamza bin Laden’s succession to the
111:30
leadership solves that problem of the
111:32
biggest the Isis guys well originally
111:35
all al Qaeda Isis was al Qaeda in Syria
111:37
and they broke away after bin Laden died
111:39
because they didn’t they had pledged
111:41
allegiance to bin Laden and the new
111:43
leader of al Qaeda Ayman Zawahiri is by
111:45
all accounts a rather uncharismatic and
111:47
you know he’s a he’s a pediatrician he’s
111:49
not really a kind of bin Laden had the
111:51
Korea’s media Trish yeah he’s a kid he’s
111:53
Egyptian as an Egyptian pediatrician
111:54
from a very well-off Egyptian family by
111:56
the way
111:57
I think his grandfather ambassador bin
112:02
Laden clearly had the charisma the
112:04
wealth the presence the looks he had all
112:07
of it
112:07
that saguaro he doesn’t as worries you
112:10
know compared to bin Laden he just
112:11
doesn’t you know say if the guys that
112:13
broke away from Al Qaeda’s forum Isis
112:15
said to suwari the current leader we
112:17
pledged allegiance to bin Laden we are
112:19
you nothing you’re not our Emir our
112:21
leader
112:22
if humza bin Laden comes back into as
112:25
the leader of al Qaeda it solves that
112:26
problem because those remnants of Isis
112:29
have a loyalty to the bin Laden name and
112:31
their bin Laden family and they remember
112:33
what they consider their glory days
112:34
fighting under under bin Laden that’s
112:39
not nice to hear no no the problem has
112:41
not gone away I can tell you that the
112:43
problem and the problem is the ideology
112:45
and it will not
112:46
be dealt with until we deal with this
112:48
ideology and it’s why it’s so dangerous
112:50
too you know there was this awful term
112:52
that I railed against it was so
112:55
frustrating to see under Obama’s
112:57
presidency the US State Department
112:58
officially adopted as their name for
113:01
challenging this problem they adopted
113:03
the term al Qaeda inspired extremism of
113:07
course it isn’t it isn’t al Qaeda that
113:10
it inspired extremism its extremism that
113:12
inspired al Qaeda and it is for the
113:15
purposes of political correctness you’ve
113:16
got this term and the State Department
113:17
officially that we’re fighting across
113:19
the world we are fighting al Qaeda
113:21
inspired extremism my former
113:24
organization his but to hire a Caliphate
113:26
espousing organization that believes in
113:28
their ideal caliphate that gays should
113:30
be killed adulterous he should be stoned
113:32
to death
113:33
they were there before al Qaeda and this
113:36
ideology has been there before al Qaeda
113:37
al Qaeda was one of a long line of
113:39
groups that came as a result of the
113:41
Islamist ideology and we’ve got to start
113:43
focusing on the ideology itself not the
113:45
physical groups that spring up from it
113:47
because they can change their name as
113:49
you point out there’s a another layer to
113:52
the ideology that is also that is even
113:54
more well subscribed that presents
113:56
social and political problems so freely
113:58
so as you said there are conservative
114:01
Muslims who don’t support al Qaeda
114:03
they’re not jihadist they can they would
114:05
honestly say bin Laden doesn’t represent
114:07
my brand of Islam but these are still
114:10
people who will who will say that
114:12
homosexuals should be killed that’s nice
114:15
oh so it’s like there’s apparent allies
114:18
against quote extremism can still be
114:21
people so with with religiously mandated
114:24
social attitudes that just cannot be
114:26
assimilated in cosmopolitan societies so
114:30
people who are and it may be worse worse
114:34
than worse than al-qaeda inspired
114:36
extremism there’s just this notion that
114:38
on the left and and this was this came
114:40
out of Obama’s mouth and it came out of
114:42
Clinton’s mouth and largely why she
114:44
wasn’t president it’s not it’s just a
114:48
generic extremism right so that like in
114:51
the same sentence that you have to worry
114:53
about the caliphate you have to talk
114:56
about abortion doctors being killed in
114:59
the u.s. once every
115:00
fifteen years so you might cost you
115:01
remember because that President Obama
115:02
refused to use the word Islamist
115:04
extremism Trump has the other problem he
115:06
thinks that bite like Rumpelstiltskin by
115:08
repeating it enough you’ve solved the
115:09
problem you know but but actually one of
115:12
the elements in which he was correctly
115:13
critical of Obama was and I was at the
115:16
time vocally critical of Obama’s
115:17
reluctance to use the word Islamist
115:19
extremism and we’ve got no problem when
115:23
we talk about you know when we talk
115:26
about white supremacist ideology we
115:28
don’t mean that all white people are
115:30
supremacists you know what we’re doing
115:32
here is actually attributing precisely
115:35
specifically what the ideology is and
115:37
believes in white supremacy and likewise
115:40
Islamist you know it’s important so we
115:42
can identify that ideology still while
115:45
not calling it Islam right so we’re
115:48
still giving a bit of a leeway there for
115:49
everybody else all the other Muslims but
115:52
to call it Islamist extremism is to
115:53
recognize that it’s an offshoot of Islam
115:55
it’s a manifestation extreme or
115:56
otherwise of Islam and thereby we are
115:59
acknowledging that its justifications
116:01
are in Islamic Scripture as well as of
116:03
course a multiplicity of other causes
116:05
grievances and what-have-you but we
116:07
cannot ignore that it also rests on
116:09
justifications that are derived from the
116:11
Islamic Scripture I mean I can cite for
116:13
the Arabic that tells you in the Koran
116:15
itself to cut the hand of a thief or to
116:17
lash the adulterer you know these are
116:20
they all quote the hadith or the saying
116:22
of the Prophet that says kill the person
116:23
that changes their religion this is
116:25
scripture and so of course there are
116:27
other factors involved as well but one
116:29
of the factors that gives rise to this
116:31
is the unreformed scripture that these
116:34
extremists cite and so we have to
116:36
acknowledge that Islam has a role to
116:37
play I often say that you know because
116:40
again under the Obama presidency it was
116:42
frustrating that the common refrain was
116:44
to say that Islam this has nothing to do
116:46
with Islam this is absurd as arguing
116:49
that the Spanish Inquisition had nothing
116:50
to do with Catholicism he went even
116:52
further at one point didn’t he at one
116:53
point say that not only does this have
116:55
nothing to do with his mom this has less
116:57
to do with Islam than any other wouldn’t
116:59
tell him it was just he bent over
117:00
backwards it’s not saying the Crusades
117:02
have nothing dude Christianity yeah Oh
117:04
gentlemen unfortunately I have to wrap
117:06
this up but I really appreciate you guys
117:09
coming on it was
117:11
in your book the book is Islam in the
117:15
future of tolerance and actually we’re
117:17
the one thing we do have to announce is
117:19
we’re going to Sydney and Auckland yeah
117:23
two of us and Douglas Murray and both
117:25
Weinstein brothers we’re gonna we’re
117:27
gonna wreck those towns oh my goodness
117:30
we’re gonna have a podcast a day long
117:32
calm I think you want to use that first
117:33
name because I think okay
117:42
no but great to get both of them
117:43
together that room yeah those guys are
117:45
awesome
117:45
yeah I’m really grateful to meet both of
117:47
them and you as well thank you guys
117:49
thank you appreciate is
117:54
[Applause]
117:57
[Music]

Sam Harris & David Frum Dismantle Donald Trump’s Politics

The audio in this video is from Sam Harris’ Waking Up podcast, episode #65 — We’re All Cucks Now _ https://www.samharris.org/podcast/P7

Donald Trump got 3 things right:

  1. Crisis in American Rural Life
    • The “inner cities” are having a revival, but the rural areas are struggling, and had not been heard
    • The drug crisis
  2. Beliefs about Trade date back from times when other countries were democracies or small players
    1. Chinese trade imbalances have caused harsh dislocations
    2. We don’t have compensation like
  3. Immigration is described by economists as having no costs
    • The costs (cultural) are born by the bottom 30-40%

But none of that suggests that Donald Trump is the right person to deal with these 3 issues.

There is a game-theorist idea that it might take a bull in the china shop to deal with our adversaries.

  • Vested interests

Donald Trump is like a diamond that comes with a curse.

He is not cutting through bureaucracy.  He is not confirming his appointments.

An undisciplined America aids adversaries.

 

 

Sam Harris roasts Trump again for 14 minutes

In episode #45 of “The Waking Up Podcast”, Sam Harris once again shares his thoughts on Trump. At 8:32 Sam hilariously demonstrates how absurd it would be, were he to speak like Trump. Furthermore, he addresses Gary Johnson’s Aleppo incident and talks about who Christopher Hitchens would vote for. This is an addition to Harris’ analysis of some of Trump’s policies during the 38th episode of his podcast.

Scott Adams: Sam Harris is Wrong About Donald Trump

(4 min) The people on the right are nicer to me when they disagree.

Trump departs from the fact checking more aggressively than we’ve seen before, but the results appear to be quite good.

Trump hasn’t broken stuff, which is better than people thought would happen.

It seems to be that Sam’s concern is the departure from the fact is so extreme that it will cause lasting damage.  It will cause others to discard facts or cause people to not care about facts.

When Sam says there is a big problem with the Trump Experience I can’t see it because I see Trump as a unique experience.  I think that the next President will be a reaction to Trump, like Trump was a reaction to Obama.

Sam’s assumption is wrong, but while his brand is “Rationality”, in the realm of politics, facts don’t matter.

(13 min ) The way people make decisions don’t depend on facts.  Politics was always 100% bullshit, so Trump prioritizes winning outcomes in all cases.

Compare that to politicians whose priority is the truth.

In politics, the truth gets your economy in trouble because people loose confidence when you talk truthfully about the problems.

Sam’s prioritization of the truth is valuable in almost all except politics.

(19:55) In politics, there is no truth.  There is no process to get there and even if there was, you wouldn’t want it because it wouldn’t be winning (and half the country wouldn’t believe you).

[Tim: since you can’t tell the truth all the times, disregard it completely]

Trump prioritied the Rust Belt states and made sure his message fit there.  Hillary Clinton didn’t. She prioritized her gender.

Many Republicans would choose Nikki-Haley (showing that Hillary broke the glass ceiling)

(25 min) You’ve got to give Hillary credit for breaking the glass ceiling.

(14:26) If Putin continued to do the same things with elections in the future (and why would he because he seems to like a President Trump)

The best way to deal with interference is not to talk to that in a press conference.  (Its just a good play)

I kind of like Putin’s play to say that we can interview the 12 Indicted hackers if he can interview Americans.  (Uninformed)