openpolitics.com

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41:31

whole mask thing apparently I was like

41:33

really arguing you shouldn’t wear a mask

41:35

or you’re a [ __ ] god it’s but that’s

41:38

also the problem with sound bites on

41:40

Twitter yeah it’s

41:41

you know it exists it’s the content

41:44

factory and you know anybody that

41:46

creates content you know then that goes

41:50

out into the world and look they’re

41:51

looking for for eyeballs to and that’s

41:54

why I always feel like like I take [ __ ]

41:58

but I can’t complain about it because

41:59

that’s part of the guy right that’s part

42:03

of the game that’s what I do for living

42:04

so like when people say let it go

42:06

correctness it’s overwhelming I just say

42:08

like amen it’s just other people pushing

42:12

back and getting to say their [ __ ] and

42:13

that’s exactly what they should be doing

42:16

the internet and it’s democratized you

42:19

know outraged and there’s more speech

42:23

now than there’s ever been before in the

42:25

history of the world like we all know

42:26

you know it’s like that what’s the movie

42:28

with the Mel Gibson where he knows what

42:32

women what would you think Yeah right

42:34

so yeah ESP Twitter and the Internet is

42:38

just we all have developed the ESP and

42:39

now we know what everybody is thinking

42:41

it’s all every day we’re just bombarded

42:44

by what everybody’s saying well you’re

42:46

also bombarded by the people that spend

42:47

the most time doing it because there’s a

42:50

lot of mentally unwell people that spend

42:52

their entire day camp down on Twitter

42:54

having arguments and if you want to

42:57

venture into that world and risk your

42:59

consciousness and your health your met

43:01

your literal mental health by

43:03

communicating in this really crude

43:05

manner with text messages and you know

43:08

arguing over semantics with people that

43:10

you don’t even know it’s it’s a terrible

43:12

way to exist are you on Twitter do you

43:15

have a Twitter account but I don’t read

43:16

it it goes you know I post things on

43:20

inner on Instagram they go to Twitter

43:22

occasionally I’ll post things on Twitter

43:23

but I don’t read it it’s just too toxic

43:26

man I get it you know and I know when I

43:29

[ __ ] up and I know when people are mad

43:31

at me when it’s legit and valid and I

43:33

know when they’re mad at me for nonsense

43:35

and I I’m my worst self critic so I

43:38

don’t need other people yelling at me I

43:40

know what I did wrong and stay clear

43:42

healthy I think that’s the only approach

43:44

you can have in this environment I think

43:46

it’s a healthy way to look at it and you

43:48

know I always try and keep myself like

43:50

you figure when when people are coming

43:52

at it there’s probably to be something

43:54

constructive in there

43:55

sometimes energy to like find it and

43:57

sometimes I’m just like I really can

43:59

used yeah sometimes you can’t do it but

44:01

yeah there’s value in criticism it’s

44:03

very important but not too much it’s

44:05

like anything else like you there’s

44:07

value in a little bit of snake venom you

44:09

develop a tolerance but if you get a big

44:11

fat dose you’re dead and it’s in in many

44:14

ways it’s the same with interacting with

44:16

people that are upset with you there’s

44:17

gonna people people that are upset with

44:19

everybody for no reason no matter what

44:21

the story is in the news even if it’s

44:22

clear-cut to you and I there’s going to

44:24

be someone who has a violent opposition

44:25

to that idea it doesn’t mean they’re

44:27

right it doesn’t mean you’re right it

44:29

just means people have a lot of

44:31

different [ __ ] ways of looking at the

44:32

world and if you want to exist in

44:34

conflict in perpetuity stay on Twitter

44:37

and stay on Twitter all day long and

44:38

just argue with people I don’t want to

44:41

do that you know and again it’s not that

44:43

I don’t have any room for improvement

44:45

it’s not that I don’t appreciate or

44:47

accept or recognize the value of

44:48

criticism because I definitely do it’s

44:50

that it’s not healthy it’s not healthy

44:53

for me it’s not it could directly affect

44:55

the kind of content I put out it’s not

44:57

good that’s what I was upset do you feel

45:00

like one of the hardest thing to do is

45:02

to maintain your kind of creative

45:06

barometer so that you don’t let those

45:10

kinds of things when you feel like

45:13

they’re not constructive pulling it too

45:15

far to the outrage world where some

45:18

other things like to maintain that and

45:21

that’s why I think it’s good like what

45:22

you do in terms of Congress is like you

45:22

you do in terms of Congress is like you

45:24

basically say you know I’m gonna do long

45:27

form because that you know feels like at

45:31

least from my perspective the healthiest

45:33

form

45:34

yeah it’s conversation but is even in

45:37

that case people will take long-form

45:40

edit things out of context and then it

45:42

becomes the same problem that we have on

45:45

Twitter and with everything else you get

45:46

these little sound bites so there’s

45:48

little video clips and you don’t

45:50

understand the full context of the

45:52

conversation or what was actually said

45:54

and then people get outraged at that

45:56

it’s you know it’s we are living in a

45:59

very strange time and I believe it’s an

46:01

adolescent stage of communication and I

46:03

think it’s going to give our

46:04

frustrations for this are going to give

46:06

birth to a better full

46:08

and I think one of the things that

46:09

podcasts what it’s in response to the

46:13

popularity of the long-form is in

46:15

response to people being upset with like

46:18

these traditional late-night talk show

46:20

things where there’s a window here with

46:22

one guy on the right and a window here

46:23

with a guy on the left and there’s a

46:24

person in the center and they’re yelling

46:25

at each other and then you cut to

46:26

commercial and you don’t really feel

46:27

like things got resolved so the response

46:30

to that where people gravitate it’s

46:32

three is theater yeah I think he’s was

46:37

it hard for you you know when we came up

46:39

his comments it was also at that point

46:42

like it was sort of a gladiatorial

46:43

environment you know and I remember you

46:45

know the Boston scene you know was

46:48

always like that’s a tough scene yeah

46:50

he’d come up and it was kind of

46:53

gladiatorial and but you had that

46:55

audience and you develop kind of that

46:57

thick skin is it hard to then make that

46:59

switch in your mind to this different

47:03

form that’s so much more considered so

47:06

much less about conquering the stage

47:11

yeah it is about being open and is that

47:15

something that for you what was the

47:19

switch for you from those two forms

47:22

because that’s and that’s an interesting

47:23

switch well in the beginning there

47:26

wasn’t very good switch you know it’s

47:28

like one of the reasons why the early

47:29

episode sucked it’s like I didn’t know

47:31

what I was doing and I didn’t think

47:32

anybody was listening it was just for

47:34

fun and there was a lot of just hanging

47:36

out with comics and just doing what

47:37

comics do if we were at a diner

47:39

somewhere just talking [ __ ] and making

47:41

each other laugh but we were doing it

47:43

and videotaping it and then along the

47:45

way I started interviewing actual

47:47

interesting people and talking to them

47:49

and having conversations and not you

47:51

know I don’t you know I there’s a place

47:53

for comedy and then I don’t I make a

47:56

really big point in never trying to

47:59

force comedy into places where it

48:01

doesn’t belong that’s I do that also

48:04

with the UFC when I do commentary I’m

48:05

never funny there’s no reason to be it’s

48:07

not what my job is you know and then

48:09

when I’m doing a conversation with

48:11

someone I just try to talk I don’t try

48:14

to be a comic I don’t try I just I’m a

48:16

human I want I want to know what they’re

48:18

talking about and I want to I want to

48:20

get them to expand upon their

48:22

ideas as best they can and I want to be

48:24

engaged that’s what I’m trying to do so

48:27

it wasn’t that it wasn’t that was a big

48:30

transition it was that I had to learn

48:31

how to do this thing

48:33

that I didn’t I think was a skill I

48:34

thought that like being on the radio or

48:37

podcasting you know was just talking

48:39

that’s what I thought it so you’re just

48:40

talking and then I realize no no you’re

48:42

talking in a way that people want to

48:45

listen you’re making it entertaining

48:47

you’re keeping your ego in check you’re

48:49

you’re moving the conversation along way

48:51

not being overbearing you’re not letting

48:54

people ramble too much where it’s boring

48:56

you you got to figure out how to juice

48:57

things up and push them and massage them

48:59

and move him around it’s a skill and I

49:02

didn’t think it was a skill and you know

49:04

and like I said that’s one of the

49:06

reasons when my early episodes suck so

49:07

bad there wasn’t given any consideration

49:10

to the fact that people were listening

49:11

it was just fun we’re just doing it for

49:14

ourselves and then along the way and in

49:17

this house he also speaks to the value

49:19

of criticism I read a bunch of criticism

49:21

about what was wrong with the podcast

49:23

you know that I talk we talk over each

49:26

other I talk too much whatever it was

49:28

and I took it to heart and I would think

49:30

about it I’ll go okay I gotta consider

49:32

that people are listening to this this

49:34

isn’t just what I want to say it’s what

49:36

I want people to hear I know how I want

49:38

it just like stand up you wanted the

49:40

joke to easily enter into a person’s

49:42

mind so it’s so well written and so

49:45

perfectly timed that the audience goes

49:47

John Stewart’s got this I’m just gonna

49:49

sit back and let him take my thoughts on

49:51

a ride and that’s that’s what really

49:53

good stand-up is I mean it’s one of the

49:55

reason why dave was able to do that 8:46

49:58

special that way where he has this long

50:02

drawn-out story with so many important

50:06

points and a few laughs thrown in there

50:08

but so engaged and it’s he’s so you just

50:12

go with him you just let him take you

50:14

just let him take you and that’s that’s

50:16

everything whether it’s someone giving a

50:19

speech or you know I mean even like just

50:24

almost every conversation that we have

50:26

it’s there’s a skill to it that we’re

50:28

not taught I mean you know what it’s

50:30

like to talk to someone where they’re

50:31

not even really talking to you they’re

50:33

just kind of waiting for

50:35

them to talk they’re waiting for you to

50:36

finish so they can talk about themselves

50:37

that’s that’s a real problem with people

50:40

and communicating and I had to learn how

50:42

to I learn how to be a better

50:44

communicator really it also had to be

50:46

authentically you because there is now

50:49

like I think the best measure sometimes

50:52

of art or a standard for those things is

50:55

when you you hear things or see things

50:57

that are uniquely that person like

50:59

nobody could have delivered 8:46 good

51:03

day right line perfect yeah it just

51:06

authentically uniquely in your voice

51:10

that you develop authentically uniquely

51:12

and that’s a hard thing to develop it’s

51:13

funny because I feel like that’s what

51:16

stand-up helped to do for me hmm us when

51:19

you do that in front of our eyes even

51:21

I’ll give like boss as an example you

51:22

know when we’d be working next you do

51:24

that that run of mixes like in the

51:26

framingham and the other ones you know

51:27

we go to the the one in Central Boston

51:31

first and I can remember I hadn’t played

51:36

the room before and I was I was a young

51:37

comic and I just don’t let her and I

51:39

think I’ve gotten like a big break and

51:41

so the guys at Nick’s booked me on that

51:44

run to be a headliner my first run on

51:48

those next properties so I came into

51:50

Nicks and they were just gonna throw me

51:53

up on stage and what they did was so

51:57

such a learning experience because you

51:58

kind of think like I’m on Letterman I’m

52:00

just gonna walk into this place I’m

52:01

coming up from your top bed a comedy I’m

52:04

gonna [ __ ] strut my stuff and Nicks

52:06

and they threw up before me I think it

52:10

was Lenny Clarke Kenny Robertson and

52:14

swinging and I walked in the room and it

52:19

was like Dresden like they had so blown

52:23

that room out with brilliance and then

52:25

it was like and from New York a

52:27

Letterman guy John Stehr and it was it

52:32

was like they were clubbing a baby seal

52:35

I was just but man they did that to

52:39

everybody it but so like wonderfully

52:42

humbling yeah he is it makes you realize

52:44

in the moment like all right

52:46

I’ve got a [ __ ] ton of work to do yes

52:48

like okay just murder it brilliant [ __ ]

52:52

and you’re just like that boy yeah if

52:56

you want to be humbled that the Boston

52:59

comedy scene in the late 80s in the

53:01

early 90s that was the place to be it

53:04

was a great place to develop too though

53:05

because it lets you know I mean you

53:08

never want to be overconfidence one of

53:09

the worst things you could be in

53:10

anything and you never want to be lazy

53:12

if you’re especially when you’re

53:14

delivering something to people that are

53:16

actually paying to see you talk right

53:19

like man there’s such a such a important

53:23

connection that you have to those people

53:25

it has got it you’ve got to do the work

53:28

it’s got to be your best version and if

53:31

you’re not doing that and they know

53:33

you’re not doing that they get angry at

53:34

you it’s like it’s the anger that an

53:37

audience has towards a comic that’s

53:38

bombing is very difficult to describe

53:41

you know like they’re mad they can do

53:43

that too they can talk to like why the

53:45

[ __ ] are you talking like if you’re not

53:48

on in you know there’s real valuable

53:50

lessons to that as a crack coming up

53:52

that you do apply to whether it’s

53:54

podcast and you’re hosting any kind of a

53:56

show ya know there’s a fertility to it

53:58

and if you don’t stay on top of it you

54:00

know the energy that room is is a bear

54:03

that will get up and walk out of the

54:04

room if you’re not careful but it’s

54:07

interesting also though now so you’re

54:08

known now stand up when you’re down

54:11

versus stand up when you’re not there’s

54:13

also a difference because you walk into

54:16

a room when they know you and there is

54:18

you know you don’t have to be as sharp

54:22

if you don’t want to because they’re and

54:23

that’s a discipline as well yeah I mean

54:26

that you’re not coasting on maybe some

54:29

goodwill that they had for you based on

54:32

something else that’s very dangerous

54:33

that’s one of the reasons why the Comedy

54:35

Store is so important because when I go

54:37

there it’s not my crowd it’s my crowd

54:39

and you know Anthony Jeselnik crowd and

54:43

Ali Wong’s crowd and like there’s a lot

54:45

of people there coming to see everybody

54:47

and so and you’re going on after all

54:49

these murderers so it’s when you’re when

54:52

you’re in that kind of an environment

54:53

you sort of have to dot your i’s and

54:55

cross your T’s you got to do the work

54:57

right are you still really involved like

54:59

because for me you know once I did

55:02

started the show and once I had kids

55:04

like I’ll really get to the clubs

55:06

anymore so it almost feels like old

55:09

timers day when I show up showed up he’s

55:13

good you know but I wish I I wish I

55:17

could get out there more and every night

55:18

it would be you know you’re like 8

55:19

o’clock I’m like I should I should just

55:21

drive up to the city and go work the

55:23

cellar and then my wife will be like

55:25

bachelor in paradise is on all right

55:27

yeah yeah well the way I had been

55:31

setting it up at the store was all my

55:33

sets would be after 10 o’clock for the

55:35

most part except rarely rarely I would

55:38

do an 8 o’clock show so everybody would

55:40

be in bed so I’d leave my house and my

55:42

set wouldn’t be probably until 11:00 so

55:45

I’d leave my house and everybody’d be

55:46

asleep and it was perfect and I just and

55:49

I that’s also my favorite time to write

55:51

to I would come home from the store and

55:53

everybody’d be asleep fire up a joint

55:55

and sit in front of laptop and come up

55:57

with some ideas and it’s I had it down

55:59

to a science before the the lockdown

56:01

right has the lockdown mess your

56:06

creature I don’t know I mean I mean my

56:10

comedy routine it certainly has I don’t

56:12

know I mean I’m doing my first shows

56:14

this weekend in Houston I don’t know

56:15

what the [ __ ] gonna happen I don’t

56:17

know if I know how to do it anymore

56:18

that’s gonna be very strange like you

56:23

couldn’t go more into the belly of the

56:24

beast like right juicy yeah like it’s

56:26

like being on the surface of being like

56:28

it’s off your charts with this thing

56:29

yeah I’m gonna go on stage with two

56:30

bottles of Lysol and just you know girls

56:33

do that thing when they spray perfume

56:34

and they walk through it I do that with

56:37

Lysol on stage I mean I think it’s

56:42

really critical to strengthen your

56:44

immune system and I do a lot of things

56:45

to do that and I think that’s something

56:47

that people need to really concentrate

56:48

on and I really wish that our elected

56:50

officials were talking more about that

56:52

and having speeches with doctors and

56:55

doing the office you never shall Obama

56:58

tried to do like try to put kale in

57:01

something and everybody was like what

57:02

I’m sorry go back to tater tots

57:08

yeah I mean just the science on vitamin

57:12

supplementation and how critical it is

57:14

for your immune system particularly

57:15

vitamin D that is that could literally

57:17

save lives and that knowledge is not

57:20

secret that knowledge is out there you

57:22

did those those episodes on the game

57:24

changers the James was and that was it

57:28

was fascinating it was because I watched

57:30

that movie and you know nutrition is

57:33

also like diet is such an important part

57:35

of what we do to ourselves that we that

57:38

we don’t think and especially in a time

57:39

of kovat where so many people like to

57:43

say like when you see what this does the

57:45

people with type 1 diabetes are four

57:47

with other kinds of you know conditions

57:51

that might be caused from either poor

57:53

diet or lack of access to know healthier

57:56

options and things like that you realize

57:58

like [ __ ] we put ourselves in a very

58:01

vulnerable position

58:02

yeah very vulnerable yeah we Andrew

58:05

Schultz had a really good point he said

58:07

this this pandemic highlighted the

58:10

vulnerabilities both in our economic

58:11

system and in our health system like the

58:15

way we are as human beings the what

58:17

who’s vulnerable the obese people people

58:20

with diabetes older folks I mean it

58:22

highlights all these issues where you

58:25

know we we really need to concentrate on

58:28

for the future if you want more people

58:29

to survive this there is there are

58:32

strategies that can be implemented and

58:34

we really we really need to talk to

58:36

people about just being normal stuff

58:38

being D hiding well hydrated making sure

58:41

you’re not dehydrated well rested teach

58:44

people meditation techniques is not hard

58:46

to learn some breathing exercises that

58:48

have been actually proven to increase

58:51

your immune function it’s not hard to

58:53

teach people about vitamin D and

58:55

supplementing it if you can’t go outside

58:56

so how do you get people then to take

58:59

action because here’s the other thing

59:01

you remember like those lives are hard

59:02

yeah you’re dealing when you’re talking

59:04

about like we talked about earlier like

59:06

economic inequality you know it’s hard

59:10

to go into an area where they feel like

59:12

[ __ ] I don’t know where my next meal is

59:13

coming from and be like so here’s what

59:16

we’re gonna do we’re just gonna sit and

59:17

breathe quiet these five minutes and I

59:19

know

59:20

it’s a really difficult it’s like

59:23

hierarchy of needs you know yeah how do

59:26

you how do you work into the idea that

59:30

those types of theories are actually

59:33

important to the betterment of like and

59:36

the stability of the larger part of

59:38

their life when they’re fighting so hard

59:40

just to stay afloat yeah it’s a that’s

59:43

an interesting point and I think what

59:46

you have to do is it has to be first of

59:48

all told by people who are doing it

59:51

successfully so people that are doing it

59:54

that like maybe were struggling with

59:55

their immune system and turned it around

59:58

and got healthier like those people are

60:00

the ones that the people that are in a

60:01

bad position right now they really

60:03

respond to when it comes to you live

60:05

there’s an emotional connection with if

60:07

you see some guide is in the cover of

60:08

Men’s Health magazine he’s ripped and he

60:10

starts talking about fitness you like

60:11

get the [ __ ] out of here I can’t relate

60:13

to you I’m never gonna look like that

60:14

but if you see someone who is in the

60:16

situation that you’re in currently and

60:19

they turned it around

60:21

well that me but listen I’ve been

60:24

working out my whole life I’ve never

60:25

stopped okay but if someone is fat I’m

60:29

talking from their perspective and they

60:30

see some guy who’s really thin and

60:33

chiseled then it’s not going to make

60:34

sense to them that they could ever be

60:36

like that but if they see someone

60:38

there’s a lot of really fantastic photos

60:40

and and and Instagram and Facebook pages

60:43

online where you can get inspiration

60:45

from someone who actually stuck to a

60:47

diet actually stuck to an exercise

60:49

routine and then speaks really well

60:51

about how much it improved the way they

60:54

feel their emotions their depression all

60:56

the aspects of their life and that’s I

60:58

think one of the more like David Goggins

61:00

is a great example that I use him all

61:02

the time because he’s this incredibly

61:04

inspirational guy who was a Navy SEAL

61:07

and at one point in time he’s 300 pounds

61:09

he was drinking milkshakes and he puts

61:10

those pictures of himself on Instagram

61:12

all the time just to let people know hey

61:15

I’m not some alien I’m a person who was

61:18

weak just like you I was lazy I got fat

61:21

and then I figured out how to train my

61:23

mind to be disciplined and I’d figured

61:25

out how to be happier and I think that

61:27

that’s really important for people to

61:29

see that it’s we’re not in a static

61:31

State we’re all in a constant state of

61:34

him

61:34

provement and growth hopefully or

61:35

deterioration if you’re not careful but

61:38

does that you know the thing that I

61:40

worry about those sometimes is similarly

61:43

to economic distress does it make a

61:47

person’s health

61:49

be a function of their virtue does it

61:52

does it take something that is beyond a

61:54

lot of people’s control that isn’t that

61:57

a little bit of like a matter if you

61:59

just pull your pants up you could do it

62:02

like no it’s not it’s known it is the

62:04

way I know what you’re saying but it’s

62:06

not it’s I did this and I can show you

62:09

how I did it and maybe you can do it too

62:11

that’s what it is we don’t have to look

62:12

at every success is somehow or another

62:14

thumbing in the face of people who can’t

62:16

achieve a similar goal but there are

62:20

enough people out there that can that we

62:23

should concentrate on that because I

62:24

think it’ll have a significant

62:25

improvement on the overall health of us

62:27

again as a community and I think this is

62:30

really how we have to look at the United

62:33

States and human beings on earth in

62:35

general we have to look at each other as

62:37

a bunch of people that could very well

62:39

be neighbors we’re community and if

62:41

you’re my friend and you were fat and

62:43

you were willing to listen and I used to

62:46

be fat too and I can tell you hey man

62:48

this is what I did I stopped drinking

62:50

soda was there are people that are I

62:53

mean I understand the point there and

62:56

I’m okay I’m an advocate for plant-based

62:58

stuff I think that’s it’s a healthy way

63:00

to do it

63:01

but obviously eating is such a personal

63:03

experience that I hesitate to ever

63:05

impart that in any other way but I just

63:10

feel like sometimes for people it’s

63:15

almost more debilitating for that

63:18

mentality of this is how you doing just

63:21

gotta get your [ __ ] together and go

63:23

through this way I do think you have to

63:25

present more options but know that it’s

63:28

maybe more complicated and people can be

63:31

overweight or whatever and be healthy

63:33

it’s not necessarily you know something

63:38

that’s corrosive to them but well it is

63:40

though being overweight is necessarily

63:43

corrosive it’s not healthy for anybody

63:44

it’s less healthy

63:47

and being at an optimal weight that’s

63:50

what’s important it gives you some sort

63:52

of a burden

63:53

whether that burden is sustainable is

63:55

debatable maybe for some people it is

63:57

for some people it isn’t look some

63:58

people can smoke until they’re 90 and

64:00

they’re fine

64:01

other people pancreatic cancer like

64:03

Hicks and died in their 30s it it

64:06

depends

64:07

wildly on the person but the idea that

64:10

you can be fat and you can be healthy I

64:12

think is a dangerous narrative because

64:14

you’re telling people listen don’t

64:16

improve you don’t have to you can be

64:19

healthy and be obese at the same time

64:21

but the medical science does not really

64:24

support that the more weight you lose up

64:28

to a certain point you know but when you

64:30

if you get to a healthy body mass your

64:32

body works better it’s really simple it

64:34

doesn’t tax your immune system as much

64:36

doesn’t tax your heart as much it’s

64:38

better for you it’s better for your

64:40

joints it doesn’t mean that we should

64:44

ignore people that are overweight and

64:46

you know and pretend that you know that

64:49

they’re they’re not worthy or they’re

64:51

not they’re not good folks I have a very

64:55

emotional because I feel protective

64:58

you’re nice over people and I I just

65:01

yeah I think you sweetheart it’s great

65:04

that’s a good thing no it is it’s the

65:07

the reason why you’re thinking like this

65:09

because we’re talking right we’re

65:12

talking about people doing well and you

65:13

like [ __ ] what about the people can’t do

65:15

well let’s reach out to them and offer

65:17

them an olive branch and yeah I get it

65:18

man I guess you’re right you’re right

65:20

look I have very good friends that are

65:22

morbidly obese and they don’t want to

65:24

listen and there’s nothing I can do I

65:26

just hug them when I see them and you

65:27

know I hope that one day they come to

65:29

grips with it and they change but they

65:31

don’t have to you know you you live this

65:33

life for a certain amount of time and if

65:35

you want to live it eating cake and

65:36

drinking beer that’s you you do whatever

65:39

you want we’re all on the end in the end

65:41

we’re all gonna be in the ground it’s

65:42

all pointless conversation sort out

65:50

optimistically take in this country and

65:52

turning it around and a very fatalistic

65:55

officer

65:56

well that’s true the end in the end

65:57

we’re all dying

65:58

that’s how that story ends we’re all

66:00

dead so the the story with what I don’t

66:04

want people to do is suffer and I want

66:05

people to feel better while they’re

66:06

alive and I think that’s something

66:08

that’s missed in the message of health

66:10

improvement like you will actually have

66:12

a better experience on earth and it’ll

66:15

help you mitigate stress it’ll help you

66:17

it’ll help you have better relationships

66:19

because you won’t be burdened down with

66:21

a lot of like anxiety and stress that

66:23

literally comes from a physical release

66:25

of energy I look at the body like a

66:27

battery and I think that some people’s

66:29

batteries just overflowing with

66:31

corrosive material because they never

66:33

exert it

66:34

they never blow it out a battery a

66:35

battery is a bad analogy but there’s

66:37

there’s a certain amount of physical

66:39

requirement I think your body has to has

66:42

and if you don’t give that that body

66:44

that physical exertion it doesn’t feel

66:46

good we’re we’ve evolved to hunt and

66:49

gather and build homes and survive from

66:52

predators and we carry around all the

66:54

burdens in our body of this past and

66:57

there’s no getting around that and you

66:59

could either deny it and just deal with

67:01

all the tension or you can exert your

67:03

energy find some way to calm your mind

67:06

and live a life that’s better let me ask

67:10

you a question egg because now this is

67:11

I’m wondering because you’re talking

67:14

about sort of evolving to a place where

67:17

your body and like when you had James on

67:19

and he was talking about babies do you

67:23

have moral qualms about meat or do you

67:26

not like you said well you know we’re

67:28

hunters and and that like is that ever

67:30

an issue for you or is it purely a

67:32

health issue or there’s both things

67:35

there’s a health issue there is a moral

67:37

qualms with factory farming there’s not

67:39

a moral qualms qualms with health with

67:41

hunting because I I know the reality of

67:43

the life of a deer if you don’t kill

67:46

that deer it’s gonna die a horrible

67:48

death from a wolf or a coyote or a

67:50

mountain lion or whatever the [ __ ] gets

67:52

ahold of it

67:53

it’s got Ruiz to death it’s going you

67:55

can either die quickly by the hand of a

67:57

person you respect that life and it’ll

67:59

nurture your body and the bodies of your

68:01

family our problem is a disconnection

68:03

more than anything and let me tell you

68:05

something when the kovat lockdown

68:06

happened I got more requests from

68:08

friends and more requests for

68:09

information about hunting and gun

68:11

ownership how do I

68:12

protect myself and how do I feed myself

68:13

and how do I grow food those were three

68:15

really big questions that I kept getting

68:17

from people it’s fine I have such a

68:19

different perspective on it in terms of

68:22

just the the relationship between myself

68:28

and I didn’t house a big meat-eater was

68:30

a big like deli guy pastrami and corned

68:32

beef and all that my wife got into

68:35

rescue and these types of things and we

68:37

ended over the farm with pigs and goats

68:40

and sheep and things like that and it

68:44

became untenable for me to make that

68:47

decision you know that that sort of that

68:50

decision of I think you’ll be better off

68:53

if I kill you and then it became it was

68:58

something I could no longer manage once

69:01

I knew the process of it and that it was

69:05

a hard it’s been a very hard process for

69:09

me it’s only been about four or five

69:10

years how was your health I mean I’m an

69:14

old Jew so baseline pretty much we don’t

69:20

age well to begin with how old do you

69:23

know John we age a bit like avocados

69:25

when you leave them out

69:26

yeah I’m 57 I’m 52 so or in similar

69:32

boats similar boat you know but I mean

69:36

it’s hard to know I feel good you know

69:39

if you look at markers like cholesterol

69:41

or blood pressure those things it’s

69:44

better but like you say I don’t I don’t

69:48

know enough about how the body processes

69:52

to know if I’m I feel better the numbers

69:56

say I’m better but you know genetics I’m

70:00

sure plays a part in it as well but the

70:03

funny thing is like I don’t even think

70:06

about it anymore

70:06

like it just don’t even think about it

70:08

anymore well let’s get into a custom and

70:12

once your gut biome changes you know you

70:14

really get accustomed to whatever you’re

70:16

eating good or bad unfortunately and

70:18

that’s one of the reasons why people

70:19

have such a hard time quitting sugar and

70:20

bread and pasta and things along those

70:22

lines so your body just craves it that’s

70:24

what it wants we start eating healthier

70:26

food your body does great that can go

70:28

off of meat and still be incredibly

70:30

unhealthy like you know you can be vegan

70:32

and just exist on Lay’s potato chips

70:35

yeah and so it is you know and it’s a

70:38

tougher Road and the world is certainly

70:41

not it’s not built for that and it

70:44

certainly feels a little bit of a

70:49

narrower lane that you have to do and I

70:52

also think it’s an incredibly emotional

70:54

topic yeah like very little that’s as

70:56

emotional and personal as what people

71:00

put in their bodies and how they eat and

71:01

what they do and I’m always very

71:03

respectful because I also I got no leg

71:05

to stand on man I like this is what I’m

71:07

doing it feels better for me but I I

71:11

always say like but it’s such a personal

71:16

and individual choice than you

71:18

everybody’s got to do for themselves

71:20

the only thing I would say is like I do

71:22

think it’s important for people to get

71:24

educated on it to read up on like you

71:27

say factory farming well what might be

71:30

the you know nutritional boss of it or

71:33

what are some of the things that are in

71:35

it or what maybe is it going to do to

71:37

our community when you know we use so

71:40

many antibiotics mm-hmm and the meat

71:42

production ah you know that’s the only

71:45

thing I say is like try and educate

71:47

yourself to how your meal gets to your

71:50

table that’s why I’m a huge advocate for

71:53

like local farming and agriculture

71:55

because those are the people they’re

71:57

just growing their food and they’re

71:58

bringing it to your table I find that

72:00

incredible but but I also don’t I try

72:04

not to take a position of judgment on

72:07

people because I feel like that’s unfair

72:09

but I think that’s very wise of you and

72:11

I think that there’s a lot of people

72:13

that share your position on animal death

72:15

and I think that’s one of the more

72:16

promising aspects of laboratory created

72:18

meat as long as it can be done in a way

72:19

that’s actually going to be healthy for

72:21

us it seems like there’s some real

72:23

science behind that and they’re very

72:25

very close to releasing that a large

72:27

scale so it would be actual meat that

72:29

doesn’t come with death which is really

72:31

fascinating oh really yeah yeah you’re

72:34

talking about like the the the one that

72:36

they had I saw like it’s a tank

72:37

and he pulls out it’s like $20,000 for a

72:40

chicken breast they did that yeah it was

72:42

really expensive at one point in time

72:44

but they’ve gotten it down to a burger

72:46

now like they can actually make a burger

72:48

out of this stuff and they feel like as

72:51

this if this technology improves they

72:53

essentially flesh when it’s not a would

72:57

you if you could if you could still have

73:00

the the part of me that you like but it

73:03

came without death do you think you

73:05

would make that switch or is that

73:06

something that well I certainly would

73:08

with domestic animals the the difference

73:10

between that and hunting there’s there’s

73:12

a conservation aspect of it one thing

73:15

that leads to protection of wildlife

73:18

habitat is actually the money that comes

73:20

from hunting tags and hunting equipment

73:23

there’s that there’s also the the type

73:28

of relationship you have with your food

73:31

when you actually work very hard and

73:34

hunt it and kill it is very different

73:36

than buying food from a store and I

73:40

would say similar in a similar way

73:42

growing food when you go to Whole Foods

73:45

sometimes you really got to stop that

73:47

you know there’s there’s a lot that goes

73:48

into the trip the whole yeah it’s a good

73:52

parking spot that’s right yeah I get it

73:55

growing your own food in your backyard

73:57

is very satisfying to and I would say to

74:00

people like that’s a microcosm I guess

74:03

it’s a very micro form of what it feels

74:05

like to hunt an animal and then eat it

74:07

and feed your family for you know if I

74:08

shoot an elk I eat it literally for a

74:11

year so one animal death equals like a

74:14

year of my meals and you know there’s

74:19

also the moral high-ground position you

74:21

know I think a lot of people love to

74:24

look at the moral high ground of eating

74:27

vegetables and only eating vegetables as

74:29

being a superior way to live their life

74:31

and that’s that’s a good decision I

74:33

understand where you’re coming from I

74:35

understand that there’s people that look

74:37

at life very differently than me they

74:40

maybe don’t have the sort of fatalistic

74:42

perspective even though it’s respectful

74:44

I have a very fatalistic perspective

74:46

when it comes to just all organic

74:48

organisms competing

74:50

for resources and for life these animals

74:54

I mean I’ve run into them when they’ve

74:55

killed each other I’ve seen animals that

74:57

have been taken out by other animals

74:59

I’ve come across their bodies torn apart

75:00

by wolves in in the woods it’s a wild

75:03

wild thing out there man and I think

75:05

we’re so insulated by it in the in our

75:08

culture of today that it’s one of the

75:10

reasons why veganism and all these

75:11

things are becoming so attractive I

75:13

would hope that along with that we’re

75:15

gonna be nicer to each other that we’re

75:17

gonna be we’re gonna grow to be a kinder

75:19

human race I really I really hope you

75:21

that yeah because I think it’s about

75:24

consideration you know for me I think

75:26

was there was a certain part of

75:28

consciousness that I never ascribed to

75:31

animals to some extent I mean it’s funny

75:33

because I always thought of myself as oh

75:34

I you know I love animals I you know

75:36

always had dogs and cats you know you’d

75:38

find a bird with a broken wing just

75:39

thinking the boss and two weeks later he

75:41

flies away and you’re a girl but I never

75:44

really ascribed like individuality to

75:46

them and I think backwards the change

75:48

for me was interacting in in an

75:53

individual way when I get firm on the

75:56

font yeah you know I always tell my

75:59

brother once once we named them that’s

76:01

five yeah you watch them like their

76:04

plate though they’ll play or they and it

76:06

just changed my relationship to what I

76:12

wanted it to be with animals and it just

76:16

made it untenable in that moment for me

76:19

but I truly understand like that that is

76:23

in a really individualized personalized

76:28

experience that that that I made and

76:32

like I said I would love it for people

76:34

to make that connection because I think

76:36

it’s profound there is there is

76:38

something about that connection for

76:39

people that when they do see it you know

76:41

it’s funny I’ll talk about the pigs and

76:44

they’ll be like what you know they’re

76:48

they just eat everything you’re like no

76:49

they’re really playful they’re smart

76:51

don’t go nuts you do belly rubs yeah

76:54

it’s it’s but that was shocking I didn’t

76:56

know that they’d stop oh it’s like a

76:59

blob but beings

77:02

we’re talking about nature John and

77:04

there’s nothing natural about a farm

77:06

that’s part of the problem I mean it’s

77:07

all it’s an animal prison and they’re

77:09

domesticated because we give them food

77:11

and we kind of remove the the natural

77:13

fear that they would have of any you

77:15

know eyeball facing forward predator

77:18

which is what we are you know what their

77:21

health like what having our farm with

77:25

sheep and goats and pigs and they’re all

77:27

rescues is like having a nursing home

77:30

like you can’t believe the fragility of

77:34

factory farmed animals like they are to

77:38

be sick like pneumonia like genetically

77:43

the design to gain too much weight for

77:46

their legs it really is you know the

77:50

island of misfit took like they’ve

77:51

genetically modified or done whatever

77:53

they’ve done and and the health of these

77:57

animals that are in our food supply yeah

78:00

that our mainstay of our food supply is

78:02

really suspect

78:04

yeah that’s why nursing them yeah that’s

78:07

why I prefer hunting the when if you’re

78:09

eating an animal that’s a wild animal

78:12

you’re eating an athlete I mean they’re

78:14

they’re sinewy and thick and they’re

78:16

strong and they survived and there’s so

78:19

much more nutrient-dense

78:21

when you’re when you’re talking about

78:23

factory farmed animals you’re talking

78:24

about I mean well factory fired animals

78:26

is the worst version of what human

78:29

beings are capable of they were capable

78:30

of ignoring suffering to the point we

78:32

lock them all in warehouses they’re

78:34

pissed goes down in a tunnel and fills a

78:36

small lake up and they’ve flown over

78:38

these places with drones it’s horrific

78:39

right the pig farms in particularly

78:41

they’re horrific but when you’re talking

78:44

about what you’re doing on your farm

78:47

like of course you can’t eat those

78:48

things they’re your pets that would be I

78:50

mean you’re naming them and flying them

78:52

and touching them but I extrapolate that

78:55

now so my I think what happened was I

78:57

went all right that’s in the same way

79:00

that like I love my dog but if you have

79:03

a dog I wouldn’t kill your dog running

79:06

eat because I look at dogs now in a

79:09

different way so I think I extrapolate

79:10

to the

79:13

animal kingdom in a way that different I

79:15

had it I feel like because of my wife

79:17

and she’s been she’s a much kinder

79:20

smarter version of me so because of her

79:26

kind of showing me that relationship and

79:28

experiencing myself like it’s just

79:30

changed the way that I view it and

79:33

that’s been and it kind of takes us back

79:35

around to the earlier part of the

79:37

conversation because when you think

79:38

about animal agriculture and you talk

79:39

about those hog farms where are they

79:41

located they’re located in the poorest

79:43

neighborhoods right they locate any

79:46

environmental damage that they do is

79:48

also damage that’s done to poor rural

79:52

communities that live around them now

79:55

I’m not suggesting that there’s not

79:56

economic there’s an economic incentive

79:59

and an industry around it and certainly

80:02

not you know you don’t just end

80:04

industries but reform again like it it

80:10

certainly Georgia P Bush said this he

80:14

was talking about Donald Trump because

80:15

I’m gonna support Donald Trump because

80:18

Donald Trump is the only thing standing

80:20

between America and socialism and I was

80:24

like the only thing standing between

80:26

American socialism is an inability to

80:29

meaningfully reform capitalism and it’s

80:32

more damaging effects and if we can’t do

80:35

that then the people take to the streets

80:38

I think reform like Bernie was talking

80:43

about those other guys that will save

80:45

capitalism that will save democracy by

80:48

showing that we recognize that there is

80:51

collateral damage to the systems that we

80:54

use to gain wealth and to gain power and

80:57

if we can reform those systems

81:00

meaningfully for the people who suffer

81:03

most terribly under them we save it but

81:08

if we can the best deal gets stormed

81:11

like that’s just what Kennedy say if you

81:13

make peaceful evolution impossible you

81:15

make violent revolution inevitable yeah

81:17

so we I think at some point we have to

81:20

demonstrate the

81:21

we’ll and the stamina to be able to

81:24

attack these problems and that’s why I’m

81:26

holding Joe Rogan ah yeah no I think

81:31

everyone agrees but everyone feels like

81:33

their hands are tied and again I think

81:35

that’s one of the reasons why these

81:37

protests and just this this whole

81:39

explosion after George Floyd has been so

81:43

transformative I think because people

81:45

recognize like this is a real moment of

81:47

change and of course opportunists and

81:49

looters and all kinds of other crazy

81:50

[ __ ] happened along the way but it’s it

81:53

speaks to the fact that there’s so many

81:55

people in street it’s beats it speaks to

81:57

this this like we can actually do

81:59

something now we’ve got momentum let’s

82:01

keep it moving

82:02

are you hopeful yes I’m always hopeful

82:04

I’m very optimistic even though I have a

82:06

fatalistic perspective exact same

82:10

in these terrible times how do you

82:12

remain Oakland I’m like because better

82:15

people outnumber shitty people yes a

82:17

long shot they dish that’s just the

82:20

truth there was some time powerless

82:23

sometimes we may act out of fear or

82:26

resource part whatever that is good

82:28

better people outnumber shady people by

82:31

launch and we’re in an adolescent stage

82:34

of our evolution of as a civilization

82:37

it’s growing and changing there’s never

82:39

been a civilization like us today and

82:41

we’re growing and changing to try to

82:44

suit our real sensibilities and to try

82:47

to to try to get better at this [ __ ]

82:49

thing and not just accept this old crazy

82:52

corrupt structure that’s existed forever

82:55

thank you yeah you put a little fire in

82:58

my belly like this like I really enjoyed

83:03

I’ve really enjoyed the conversation

83:05

this is man I always enjoy talking to

83:07

you I appreciate you very much and I

83:09

don’t get to see you enough all right my

83:11

friend and hopefully when this all ends

83:14

everybody can gather again at the you

83:16

know at the store and had do a good set

83:19

and talk some shared with each other and

83:20

have some fun let’s do it brother

83:22

take care my friend and good luck with

83:23

your film irresistible it’s out when now

83:28

tomorrow tomorrow please jump

83:33

thank you my brother thank you sir bye

83:34

[Applause]

83:38

[Music]

83:39

[Applause]

83:44

[Music]

English (auto-generated)

45:04

you’ll be able to participate in and if

he’s fun to play with in adults we’ll

teach him things and then he wins at

life and so when you say to your kid it

doesn’t matter whether you win or lose

matters how you play the game what

you’re saying is don’t forget kid that

what you’re trying to do here is to do

well at life and you need to practice

the strategies that enable you to do

well at life well you’re in any specific

game and you never want to compromise

your ability to do well at life for the

sake of winning a single game and

there’s a deep ethic in that and it’s

the ethic of reciprocity in games part

of the reason that we’re so obsessed

with sports is because we like to see

that dramatized you know like the person

we really admire as an athlete isn’t

only the person who wins we don’t like

the narcissistic winners they’re winners

and that’s a plus but if they’re

narcissistic they’re not good team

players they’re only out for themselves

then we think well you’re a winner in

the narrow sense but your character is

suspect you’re no role model even though

you’re a winner and it’s because

we’re looking for something deeper we’re

looking for that the manifestation of

character that allows you to win across

the set of possible games and that’s a

real thing that’s a real ethic it’s a

46:13

fundamental ethic I think what you’re

46:15

pointing out that’s very important is

46:16

we’re we’re searching for the person

46:18

who’s got it all nailed someone who

46:21

tries their hardest but is also honest

46:25

enough about the circumstances to not

46:28

cry foul when it’s gone

46:30

the other person’s way yeah well that’s

46:32

part of resilience that’s right like

46:34

you’re not gonna win it you’re not going

46:36

to you’re not gonna score on every shot

46:37

right it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take

46:39

the shots doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try

46:40

to to hit the goal but part of part of

46:43

being able to continue to take shots is

46:46

to have the strength of character to

46:48

tolerate the fact that that in that

46:49

instance you weren’t on top it’s more

46:52

trivial in games than it is in fights

46:55

and it’s also the response is much more

46:59

negative to the from the fans if you

47:01

lose a fight and complain about it it is

47:04

it’s ruthless there because they

47:07

understand that you’ve made a huge

47:09

character error yeah so why do you think

47:12

it’s more important in fights than it is

47:14

in games why do you think it is because

47:15

the consequences are so grave because

47:17

you recognize that the high is much

47:19

higher and the lows are much lower to

47:21

lose a basketball game sucks but it’s

47:23

nothing like losing a fight there’s no

47:25

comparison it’s not even so what do you

think it is the damages the fighter if

he complains about losing why is that a

mistake why do the fans respond so

negatively to that because they know

they know that you lost they know that

you’re complaining for no reason and

you’re not a hero

they want you to be better than them

they want you to be the person that has

the courage to step into a cage or a

47:47

ring or wherever you with whatever the

47:49

format is you’re competing and to do

47:51

something that’s extremely difficult and

47:53

when you do that they hold you to a

47:54

higher state right to lose with grace

47:56

yes and when you fall especially if you

47:58

were a champion that is one of the most

48:00

disappointing things ever when champion

48:02

complains right and and it is okay so

48:04

response is horrific from the audience

48:06

okay so that’s a great example so let’s

48:08

imagine what does the person who loses

48:11

something important with grace do and

48:13

the answer is fairly straightforward

48:16

accepts the defeat and thinks okay what

48:18

what is it that I have left to improve

48:21

that will decrease the possibility of a

48:22

similar defeat in the future yes right

48:24

soso so what he’s doing is because the

48:27

great athlete and the great person is

48:30

not only someone who’s exceptionally

48:31

skilled at what they do but who’s trying

48:33

to expand their skills at all at all

48:35

times yes and the attempt to expand

48:38

their skills at all times is even more

48:40

important than the fact that they’re

48:41

great to begin with because the

48:42

trajectory is so important more

48:43

important in particular to the audience

48:46

it’s extremely important the audience

48:48

because you are the person who’s

48:49

competing you are expecting them to live

48:52

out this life in a perfect way or in a

48:54

much more powerful way than you’re

48:55

capable yes and so part of that is the

48:57

skill because they put in the practice

48:59

but part of that also is the willingness

49:01

to push the skill farther into new

49:03

domains of development with each action

49:05

and that’s really what people like to

49:07

watch right they don’t like to watch a

49:08

perfect athletic performance they like

49:10

to watch a perfect athletic performance

49:12

that’s pushed into the domain of new

49:14

risk they want to see both at the same

49:16

time you’re really good at what you do

49:18

and you’re getting better okay so you

49:19

lose a match which is not any indication

49:22

that you’re not good at what you do you

49:23

might not be as good as the person who

beat you but if you lose the match and

then whine what you’ve done is sacrifice

the higher order principle of constant

improvement of your own skills yes

because you should be analyzing the loss

and saying the reason I lost insofar as

it’s relevant to this particular time

and place is the insufficiencies I

manifested that defeated me and I need

49:45

to track those insufficiencies so that I

49:47

can rectify them in the future and if

49:48

I’m blaming it on you or the referees or

49:50

the situation that I’m not taking

49:53

responsibility and I’m not pushing

49:54

myself forward and so then you also take

49:56

the meaning out of it like one of the

49:58

things I’ve been doing on my tour people

50:01

are criticizing me to some degree for

50:03

saying things to people that are obvious

50:04

well first of all it’s not like I didn’t

50:06

bloody well know they were obvious when

50:08

I wrote those rulings you were the rules

50:10

in my book for example stand up straight

50:12

with your shoulders back you know treat

50:14

yourself like you’re someone responsible

50:16

for helping it’s like I know perfectly

50:18

well that those can be read as cliches

50:20

the question is cliche let’s say is

50:23

something that’s so true that it’s that

50:25

it’s become that it’s become it’s widely

50:29

accepted by everyone well but we don’t

50:31

know why it’s true anymore and so it’s

50:35

this issue that the issue that we’re

50:37

talking about here or the issue of being

50:38

a good sport we need to figure out why

50:40

that’s true and the reason that it’s

50:42

true is that you’re trying to push your

50:44

development farther than you’ve already

50:45

developed at every point in time and now

50:47

that’s the proper that’s the proper

50:49

moral attitude so

50:56

when you see an athletic performance

50:58

where someone is pushing themselves

50:59

beyond what they are you see someone

51:01

dramatizing the process of proper

51:03

adaptation it isn’t the skill itself

51:05

it’s the extension of the skill when you

51:07

see someone acting like a bad sport then

51:09

they’re sacrificing that and so they’re

51:10

sacrificing the higher for the lower and

51:12

no one likes that in the fights it’s got

51:15

to be see the question is that’s the

51:17

thing I can’t quite figure out is why

51:19

that would be even exaggerated in a

51:20

fight situation and you said it’s

51:23

because the stakes are so high

51:24

yeah the consequences of victory or

51:26

defeat they’re just so much greater

51:29

there’s your your health is on the line

51:32

it’s one of the rare things that you do

51:34

where your health is on the line your

51:37

physical health right so there’s more

51:38

extreme victories and more game defeats

51:40

and so the morality that’s associated

51:42

with defeat is more extreme exactly

51:44

because there’s more on the line and the

51:48

way people treat the champions it’s it’s

51:50

a it’s a very different thing it’s the

51:53

the respect and adulation that a

51:55

champion receives is it’s the pinnacle

51:58

of sports in terms of the the love from

52:01

the audience when someone wins a great

52:04

fight it’s there’s nothing like it and

52:06

this is one of the reasons why these

52:07

people are willing to put their health

52:09

on the line because that high the high

52:11

of victory and it’s not just a victory

52:14

it’s a you know what what is that who

52:16

was it who said the victory is really

52:21

the victory over the lesser you it’s a

52:24

victory it’s always the victory is over

52:28

you’ve got to realize a guy like steep a

52:30

Miocic who defends is heavyweight title

52:33

this weekend in the UFC he is he’s the

52:37

heavyweight champion the world but he’s

52:39

not undefeated he lost in his career

52:41

he’s lost a couple of times and he you

52:43

know as I’m sure he’s lost wrestling

52:45

matches and sparring sessions in the gym

52:48

and all he’s a product of improvement

52:51

right he’s a product of discipline and

52:53

hard work and thinking and strategy and

52:56

constantly improving upon his skills and

52:58

so so in because of that he’s the

53:00

baddest man on the planet so my in my

53:01

book rule for is this is 12 excuse me

53:05

this is from 12 rules for life rule 4 is

53:09

come

53:10

carry yourself to who you were yesterday

53:11

not to who someone else is today yes

53:13

because you need to be you need to have

53:15

a hierarchy of improvement you need to

53:18

be aiming something for something and

53:19

that means you’re going to be lesser

53:20

than people who’ve always already

53:22

attained along that dimension yes and

53:23

that can give rise to envy so the

53:26

question is who should you defeat in the

53:27

final analysis and the answer is you

53:29

should defeat your former self

53:30

you should be constantly trying to do

53:32

that and you’re the right control for

53:34

yourself to because you’re the one who’s

53:36

had all your advantages and

53:37

disadvantages and so if you want to

53:39

compete fairly with someone then you

53:40

should be competing with you and it is

53:42

the case and this is what we were

53:44

talking about – with regards to the self

53:46

improvement of the fighter is well if

53:49

you’re improving yourself then what you

53:51

are doing is competing with your lesser

53:52

self and then you might also ask well

53:54

what is that lesser self and that lesser

53:57

self would be resentful and bitter and

53:59

and aggressive and vengeance seeking and

54:04

all of those things that go along with

54:05

having a negative moral character and

54:07

those are things that interfere with

54:08

your ability to progress as you move

54:10

forward through life so it’s very

54:13

necessary to understand that this is why

54:15

you know I’ve been stressing this idea

54:18

of personal responsibilities like well

54:20

personal responsibility is to compete

54:21

with yourself is to be slightly better

54:23

than yourself the next day and it better

54:25

in some way that you can actually manage

54:27

and that’s humility it’s right like well

54:29

I’m a flawed person and I’ve got all my

54:31

problems could I be as good as person X

54:34

it’s like not the right question the

54:36

right question is could you be slightly

54:38

better tomorrow than you’re currently

54:39

flawed self and the answer to that is if

54:41

you have enough humility to set the bar

54:44

properly low then you could be better

54:46

tomorrow than you are today because what

54:49

you also have to do is you have to say

54:51

well here’s all my flaws and my

54:54

insufficiencies and the best that

54:56

someone that flawed and insufficient

54:58

could do to improve and actually do it

55:00

is this and that’s not worth going out

55:02

in the street and celebrating with

55:03

plaque arts you know it’s like well this

55:05

is why I tell people to clean the room

55:07

it’s not going to brag to someone that

55:08

you did that but someone is insufficient

55:10

as you might be able to manage it and

55:12

that means you actually are on the

55:14

pathway to self improvement and you’re

55:15

transcending your former self and you

55:17

might say well what’s the right way of

55:19

being in the world if there is such a

55:21

thing and it’s not acting according to a

55:23

set of rules

55:24

it’s attempting continually to transcend

55:26

the flawed thing that you currently are

55:28

and what’s so interesting about that is

55:30

that the mean meaning in the meaning in

55:32

life is to be found in that pursuit so

59:56

it’s things are going really badly for

you and that there’s just chance

associated with that sometimes and you

and the people around you are doing

stupid things to make it worse it’s like

okay what have you got under those

circumstances you’ve got the possibility

to slowly raise yourself out of the mire

you’ve got that the possibility to do

just what the fighter does when he’s

defeated which is to say well regardless

of the circumstances that might have led

to my defeat like even if there were

errors on the part of the referee this

is no time to whine about it this is a

time to take stock of what I did wrong

so that I could improve it into the

future and that’s the right attitude you

know in the Old Testament one of the

things that’s really interesting about

the Old Testament stories is in the Old

Testament the Jews keep getting walloped

by God it’s like they struggle up and

make an empire and then they just get

walloped and then it’s all crushed in

there and they’re they’re out of it for

generations and then they struggle back

up and make an empire and then they get

demolished again and it happens over and

over and over and the the attitude of

the Old Testament Hebrews is we must

have made a mistake it’s never to shake

their fist at the sky and curse fate

it’s never that the presupposition is if

things aren’t working out it’s my fault

and that’s a hell of a presupposition

and you might say well of course you

know what’s that that underestimates the

degree to which there’s systemic

oppression etc etc and and the and the

vagaries of fate it’s like it doesn’t

over underestimate it it’s not the point

the point is your best strategic

61:28

position is how am i insufficient and

61:31

how can I rectify that that’s what

61:33

you’ve got and the thing is you are

61:35

insufficient and you could rectify it

both of those are within your grasp if

you aim low enough one of the things why

do you see the that’s another thing you

keep saying aim low enough have a low

enough bar why do you why do you mean

that well let’s say you’ve got a kid and

you want the kid to improve you don’t

set them a bar that’s so high that it’s

impossible for them to attain it you

take a look at the kid and you think

okay this kid’s got this range of skill

here’s a challenge we can throw at him

or her that exceeds their current level

of skill but gives them a

reasonable probability of success and so

like I’m saying it tongue-in-cheek to

some degree you know it’s like but if

you’re but I’m doing it as an aid to

humility it’s like well I don’t know how

to start improving my life someone might

say that and I would say well you’re not

aiming low enough there’s something you

could do that you are regarding is

trivial that that you could do that you

would do that would result in an actual

improvement but it’s not a big enough

improvement for you so you won’t lower

yourself enough to take the opportunity

incremental steps yes and so this is

also what is achieved through exercise

it’s one of the most important well what

do you do when you go and lift weights

you don’t go on like if you haven’t

bench press before you don’t put 400

pounds on the damn bar and drop the and

drop the bar through your skull I know

you think look when I started working

out when I was a kid I was I was wait

about a hundred and thirty pounds and I

was six foot one so thin kid and I

smoked a lot I wasn’t in good shape I

wasn’t in good physical shape and I went

to the gym and it was bloody

embarrassing you know when people would

come over and help me with the goddamn

weights here’s how you’re supposed to

use this you know it was humiliating and

maybe I was pressing 65 pounds or

something at that point you know but

what am I gonna do I’m gonna lift up a

hundred fifty pounds and injure myself

right off the bat no I had to go in

there and strip down and put my skinny

goddamn self in front of the mirror and

think son-of-a-bitch there’s all these

monsters in the gym who’ve been lifting

weights for ten years and I’m struggling

to get 50 pounds off the bar tough luck

for me but I could lift 50 pounds and it

wasn’t fair very long until I could lift

75 and well you know how it goes but and

I never injured myself when I was late

lifting and the reason for that was I

never pushed myself past where I knew I

could go and I pushed myself a lot you

know I gained 35 pounds of muscle in

about three years in University I kind

of had to quit because I was eating so

goddamn much I couldn’t stand it

seething like six meals a day it was

just taking up too much time but there’s

a humility in determining what it is

that the wretched creature that you are

can actually manage aim low and I don’t

mean don’t aim and I don’t mean don’t

aim up but you have to accept the fact

that you can set yourself a goal that

you can attain and there’s not going to

be much glory in it to begin with

because if you’re not in very good shape

the goal

Yuuka day could attain tomorrow isn’t

very glorious but it’s a hell of a lot

better than nothing and it beats the

hell out of bitterness and it’s way

better than blaming someone else it’s

way less dangerous and you could do it

and what’s cool about it there’s a

statement in the New Testament it’s

called the Matthew principle and

economists use it to describe how the

economy in the world works to those who

have everything more will be given from

those who have nothing everything will

be taken it’s like what’s very

pessimistic in some sense because it

means that as you start to fail you fail

more and more rapidly but it also means

that as you start to succeed you succeed

more and more rapidly and so you take an

incremental step and well now you can

64:58

lift 55 pounds instead of 52 point 5

65:01

pounds you think well what the hell is

65:02

that it’s like it’s one step on a very

65:04

long journey and so it’s it and it

65:07

starts to compound on you so a small

65:10

step today means puts you in a position

65:11

to take a slightly bigger step for the

65:13

next day and then that puts you in a

65:15

position to take a slightly bigger step

65:16

the next day and you do that for two or

65:18

three years man you’re starting to

65:20

stride you know what I have so many

65:22

people coming up to me now this is one

65:23

of the things that’s so insanely fun

65:25

about this tour which is so positive

65:27

it’s it brings me to tears regularly

65:30

it’s mind boggling because people come

65:32

up to me and this is happening wherever

65:34

I go now and they say they’re very

65:36

polite when they come and talk to me you

65:38

know and they’re always apologetic for

65:40

interrupting and so it’s never it’s

75:34

that what that means is that these kids

have been educated for twelve years and

no one had ever sat them down and said

okay what the hell are you doing and why

and how are you gonna get like where do

you want to go why do you want to get

there how are you gonna get there

how are you gonna mark your progress

they’ve never walked them through that

exercise you walk people through that

exercise just to get them to do that

increases the probability that they’ll

stay on track by 50% that’s incredible

well it’s one of the things I’ve always

complained about is that they know one

people teach you facts they don’t teach

you how to approach life they don’t

teach you how to think they don’t teach

you how to confront why do the

insecurities and different traps that

your mind will set up for you yeah well

that’s what partly what’s so fun about

doing this lecture tour because that’s

exactly what I’m talking to people about

..

83:28

right I’m transmitting information that

I’ve learned from very very wise people

and so there’s that but also we don’t

want to underestimate the utility of the

technology right because we have this

long-form technology now and it’s

enabling us to have this discussion and

so we can get deeper into things

publicly and socially then we were able

to before and I see this I see this as a

manifestation of that and and as and I’m

hoping too that maybe maybe what’s

happening because we’re gonna have a lot

of adaptation to do in the next 20 years

as things change so rapidly we can

hardly comprehend it and hopefully the

way we’re going to be able to manage

that is to think and hopefully these

long form discussions will provide the

political or provide the public forum

for us to actually think to actually

engage at a deep enough level so we’ll

be able to master the transformations

and I think that’s possible and him

part of the reason that I wrote this

book and well part of the reason that

I’d be doing what I’ve been doing for

84:24

the last thirty years because I really

have believed since nineteen eighty five

something like that that the way out of

political polarization the way out of

the excesses of the right and the left

is through the individual I think the

West got that right the fundamental unit

of measurement is the individual and the

fundamental task of the individual is to

engage in this process of humble

self-improvement I believe that’s the

case and that’s where the meaning is and

that’s where the responsibility is and I

think and I’m hoping that if enough

people in the West and then and then the

rest of the world for that matter but

we’re very polarized in the West right

now if enough people take responsibility

for getting their individual life’s

together then we’ll get wise enough so

we won’t let this process of political

polarization put us back to the same

places that we went so many times in the

20th century I don’t see another

antidote for it it’s not political it’s

ethical this is the message that I

always hear from you and this is you as

a friend this is the you that I

understand but this is not how you’re

commonly represented you are the most

misrepresented person I’ve ever met in

my life

I have never seen someone who has so

much positive that gets ignored and

where people are looking for any little

thing that they could possibly

misrepresent and switch up and change

and I’m kind of stunned by it I mean I

I’m really not sure what it is about you

that’s so polarizing with all these

different people that are deciding that

85:58

you are some sexist transphobic evil

86:04

person that’s this right-wing

86:06

all right the figure you know even to

86:11

the point where it’s it’s it’s kind of

86:14

humorous to me sometimes when I read

86:16

some of these these takes on you what do

86:20

you think that’s from like what what is

86:22

have you this is a new thing for you

86:25

you mean this only been the last few

86:27

years that you’ve gone from this

86:29

relatively unknown professor in a

86:33

university into

86:33

Anto to being this worldwide figure

86:36

where people you’re obviously your

86:39

message is resonating with people in a

very huge way but the people that are

opposing you they’re vehemently opposed

what do you think that is collectivist

don’t like me collectivists what do you

mean by that

people who think the probably proper

unit of analysis in the world is a

political and B group oriented the

identity politics types don’t like me at

all and they have every reason not to

because I’m not I’m not a fan of

identity politics

I think things that’s why you’re

misrepresented but mentally there’s

other reasons I mean I came out against

this bill in Canada bill C 16 that that

hypothetically purported to do nothing

else but to increase the the domain of

Rights that were applied to transsexual

people but there was a there was plenty

more to that bill man let me tell you

and I read the policy dot the policies

that went along with it and it was a

compelled speech bill and so I opposed

it on the grounds that the politicians

87:36

are not supposed to leap out of their

87:37

proper domain and start to compel speech

87:40

it’s not the same as forbidding hate

87:42

speech I’m I think hate speech should be

87:44

left alone personally for all sorts of

87:46

reasons but to compel the contents of

87:48

speech is a whole new thing it’s never

87:51

been done before in the history of

87:52

British common law English common law

87:53

and it’s actually the Supreme Court in

87:56

the 1940s in the u.s. said that that was

87:58

not to be allowed and so it was a major

88:00

transgression and they said well we’re

88:02

doing it for all the right reasons it’s

88:03

like no no you don’t get it

88:05

you don’t get to compel speech I don’t

88:07

care what your reasons are and why

88:09

should I trust your damn reasons anyways

88:11

what makes you so st. like so that you

88:14

can violate this fundamental principle

88:15

and I should assume that you’re doing it

88:17

for nothing but compassion and that

88:18

you’re wise enough to manage that

88:19

properly it’s like sorry no I read your

88:22

policies I see what you’re up to I don’t

88:24

like the collectivists I think they’re

88:26

unbelievably dangerous and I have reason

88:28

to believe that so I think that when

88:31

push comes to shove if your unit of

88:35

analysis is the group and your worldview

88:37

is one group and its power claims

88:39

against all other groups that that

88:41

that’s not acceptable it’s it’s

88:43

tribalism of the worst form and it lead

88:45

to nothing but mayhem and desire

88:47

and part of the reason you’re doing it

88:48

isn’t because your compassion it’s

88:50

because you’re envious and you don’t

88:51

want to take responsibility for your own

88:52

life and I’m calling you on it and so

88:55

you don’t like me so I must be an

88:56

alright figure I must be a Nazi saying

88:59

your house needs a lot of work man

89:01

there’s a lot of rot in the in the

89:03

floorboards

89:04

the plumbing is leaking the water’s

89:05

coming in you’re not you’re not the sage

89:07

and Saint you think you are there’s so

89:10

much work you have to do on yourself

89:11

that it would damn near kill you to take

89:13

a look at it do everything you honestly

89:15

think that that’s why people are

89:16

responding to you in a negative way that

89:18

they only have their own personal

89:20

problems that they’re avoiding it can’t

89:22

possibly be that you represent to them

89:24

something that is either cruel or

89:30

something that is not compassionate

89:33

about people and their differences and

89:35

their flaws and their their humanity

89:38

because I think it’s certainly the case

89:40

that there the vision that’s been

89:42

generated of me is yeah that’s but

89:44

that’s what I’m getting at oh yeah

89:46

there’s that too but why is layers say

89:48

theirs well part of its the political

89:51

polarization you know at the moment

89:52

we’re viewing almost everything that

89:54

happens in the world through a political

89:56

lens at least the journalists at least

89:58

first of all first of all I gotta make

90:01

this clear

conditions oh no we can’t do that it’s

134:32

like the discussion you guys wanted why

do you continue and agree to have these

conversations that are gonna be edited

oh well that’s a good question the Jim

Jefferies one was another one yeah Jim’s

134:43

a friend of mine but I mean he gave you

134:45

a good question and you actually gave a

134:46

good answer you said actually I’m

134:49

probably wrong about yeah yeah and you

134:50

were talking about whether or not gay

134:52

people should whether someone should be

134:55

forced to bake a cake for cake for gay

134:57

people yeah I said forced to probably

134:59

not they said well what if they don’t

135:00

want to get baked a cake for black

135:02

people yeah and he said well actually

135:05

probably it probably should be forced to

135:07

yeah well probably wrong yeah well I was

135:09

probably wrong in everything I did and

135:11

that in that part of the discussion

135:12

because I hadn’t thought that issue

135:15

through enough to actually give a good

135:16

answer he didn’t expect that issue

135:18

because this is not something you talk

135:19

about commonly no and it’s it’s actually

135:21

complicated right I mean obviously the

135:23

whole I won’t serve you because you’re

135:25

black thing is not good but then again

135:27

you have you also have the right to

135:29

choose who you’re going to affiliate

135:30

with but

135:31

that’s complicated because it’s a

135:32

commercial circumstance and then if

135:33

you’re making a cake is that the same as

135:35

serving or is that compelled speech it’s

135:37

like oh my god these are border cases

135:40

that cause a lot of controversy I don’t

135:42

mean serving black people obviously

135:43

that’s not a border case but these cases

135:45

that caused a lot of controversy is

135:47

where two principles are at odds and it

135:49

isn’t exactly clear where to draw the

135:50

line and I’m not happy with you know I’m

135:53

not happy with my answer to that but I

135:55

hadn’t spent that like week it would

135:57

take to think through the issue and

135:59

really have a comprehensive perspective

136:00

you didn’t expect that to be a subject

136:02

anyway no no what how long did you talk

136:05

to Jim for oh I think about 45 minutes

136:08

maybe an hour first Oh two minutes yeah

136:11

well my daughter has told me and and my

136:14

wife as well my son as well and these

136:16

discussions we’ve been thinking about

136:18

how to handle the media which is a very

complicated question and one hypothesis

being don’t do interviews that will be

edited and I’ve thought about that and

and and and being thinking about it and

that might be the right answer it might

be the right answer going fooling it is

right and well it could it could easily

be although it’s the only way you can’t

be misrepresented just all the problems

that I’ve seen with you all of them come

from you being edited yes I mean there’s

complex subjects that people would

disagree with you on but when you look

at complete mischaracterizations of your

point

these have been established because of

editing yes well I guess the only

counter-argument is this and I mean a

lot of these a lot of these

opportunities come I’ve had

opportunities that are coming at me a

rate at a rate that doesn’t allow me to

think them through as much as I could

optimally but but then there’s another

thing which is it isn’t necessarily a

mistake to lay yourself open to attack

because sometimes it reveals the motives

of the attackers like that’s what

happened in the Kathy Newman interview

no that could have gone really sideways

like I was lucky there to some degree

because she interviewed me for 40

minutes or whatever and something like

that and then they did chop it down to

seven minutes or three minutes and it

was exactly what you’d expect and that

is what I expected after

away from the interview I thought oh my

god they’re just gonna chop this into

reprehensible segments and pillory me

but I walked away from it because there

was 50 other things to do but then it

was so funny because they did do that

and then they put up the whole interview

and the reason they put up the whole

interview was because they thought the

interview went fine it isn’t that they

knew that that was gonna cause commotion

not at all not a bit

he

141:23

journalists I’m certainly not taking

141:24

anywhere near the number of

141:26

opportunities that I have in front of me

141:27

right we are trying to be very careful

in picking and choosing but that doesn’t

always go well and it’s like it could be

that it could be that I shouldn’t do

anything that is edited at all that’s

certainly possible so well this is the

problem you speak in these you speak in

these long-form podcasts and interviews

and you get a chance to extrapolate and

unpack some pretty complicated issues

and compare them to other complicated

issues and try to find meaning and

middle ground and and try to try to

illuminate certain positions when you

expose yourself to editing you you

expose yourself to someone

idea of what the narrative should be and

how to frame your positions in it in and

dishonest way yeah and you’re seeing it

time and time again when it exposes the

142:23

problem with medium look I went to the

142:25

Aspen ideas festival last week which is

142:27

a whole story in and of itself but I was

142:29

interviewed there by a journalist from

142:31

the Atlantic Monthly and it was a

142:33

relatively long form interview I think

142:35

we talked for 40 minutes something like

142:37

that and it’s going to be edited

142:39

now I trusted her I trust her now

142:42

whether that’ll be well how that will

142:44

play out in the final edit I don’t know

142:46

because she won’t be the only one making

142:48

the decision right well the question is

142:50

should have I done it well look it was

142:53

the Aspen ideas festival it’s a

142:54

different audience it’s left-leaning

I thought well maybe I’ll go talk to a

left-leaning audience people are always

criticizing me for not doing that I

usually don’t do it because I don’t get

invited but so I went and talked to them

it’s like and Barry Weiss interviewed me

in front of the Aspen ideas festival and

that was long-form uncut and put on the

web and so maybe that was useful the

Atlantic thing well it might be good

we’ll see it does expose me to the risk

though because it’ll be edited so and it

was it wise to do it

look I’ve been fortunate so far despite

the fact that I’ve been taken out of

context at times and fairly significant

proportion of times but not the

overwhelming majority of times the net

consequence of all of that has been to

143:46

engage more and more people in a complex

143:48

dialogue as far as I can tell so that’s

143:51

the good that’s the good it doesn’t mean

143:54

the strategy that I’ve implemented so

143:56

far is the only strategy that will work

143:58

into the future we can also clearly

144:00

establish it you didn’t planning this to

144:02

happen this this whole thing that

144:04

happened from you opposing that bill and

144:07

then going to where you are how many

you

148:11

know what you’re talking about so you

148:13

take the listeners on a journey right

148:15

it’s an exploratory journey but

148:17

fundamentally what’s propelled you to

148:19

superstardom in some sense is not just

your ability which is non-trivial but

the fact that you’re on this giant

technological wave and you’re one of the

first adopters and I’m in the same

situation we’re first adopters of a

technology that’s as revolutionary as

the Gutenberg printing press and so

that’s all unfolding in real time it’s

like look at what’s happening yeah well

the spoken word is now as powerful as

the written word that’s never happened

before in human history and we’re on the

cutting edge of that for better or worse

that’s a very good way to put it the

spoken word is just power yeah and maybe

even more so why is it so accessible to

people that don’t have the time to read

well or stuck in traffic you know or or

and here’s another possibility maybe ten

times as many people can listen to

complex information as can read complex

information in terms of their ability to

process it sure could easily we don’t

know maybe it’s maybe it’s the same it’s

certainly easier to listen to a book on

tape for me than it is to read a book

yeah well so for us so the question is

for how many people is that true and I

would say it might be true for them for

the majority of people and then people

are doing hybrids you know so because

you can sync your book with audible

right so they’ll read when they have the

time but then when they have found time

which is also a major component of this

that that’s the time when you’re driving

or the time when you’re doing dishes is

now all of a sudden you can educate

yourself during that found time this is

149:40

a big revolution and the band blowing

149:43

out the bandwidth makes a huge

149:44

difference because while we talked about

149:46

that at the beginning looks like people

149:48

are more intelligent than we thought and

149:49

you and I are both and the rest of this

149:51

intellectual dark web that’s kind of

149:53

what unites us say is everybody has an

149:55

independent platform virtually everybody

149:57

they have an idiosyncratic viewpoint

150:00

they’re interested in having discussions

150:02

and pursuing for the furtherance of

150:04

their knowledge even though they might

150:05

have a priori ideological commit

150:07

Sam doesn’t I suppose I do and and Ben

150:09

Shapiro certainly does but they’re still

150:11

interested in having the discussion but

150:14

more importantly they’re capitalizing on

150:16

the long form and and the fact that

150:18

that’s possible is a reflection of this

150:19

technological transformation and the

150:21

technological transfer information might

150:23

be utterly profound it looks like it and

150:27

so that’s you know I’ve been trying to

150:29

sort this out because I keep thinking

150:30

why the hell are these people coming to

150:32

listen to what I’m saying it’s like well

150:33

I’m a guru you know I’m a sage it’s

150:35

something like that it’s like don’t be

150:37

thinking that first think if there’s

150:41

situational determinants first take your

150:43

damn personality out of it okay what’s

150:45

going on oh yes this is all fostered by

150:48

YouTube and fostered by podcasts what’s

150:50

so new about that

150:52

no bandwidth restrictions no barrier to

150:55

entrance possibility of dialog because

150:58

people cut up the YouTube videos into

151:00

chunks and make their own comments on it

151:02

it’s a whole new communication

151:03

technology also a lack of interference

151:06

by executives and producers and all

151:08

these different people that have their

151:09

own bodies unmediated yes unmediated is

151:11

giant yeah yeah well that’s all part of

151:13

the reason you’re so popular too is like

151:15

you just put this on like so you’ve got

151:17

exactly the right balance of competent

151:21

production because there’s nothing

151:23

excess about it like it’s competent but

151:26

no more than that I know that’s by

151:28

design but you also don’t edit it it’s

151:30

like what you see is what you get it’s

151:31

like everyone’s relieved by that we can

151:33

make our own damn decisions no I think

151:35

that’s very important if you’re gonna

151:36

have a conversation with someone that’s

151:38

honest you you can’t decide what to

151:40

leave in and what to take out and it’s

151:43

just well that’s partly also why I deal

151:45

with the press the way I do yeah if I’m

151:47

gonna have a full conversation it’s like

151:48

I’m willing to take the hits yeah and

151:50

and I understand what you’re saying but

151:52

that’s one of the reasons why it

frustrates me so much is that I see what

they’re doing and I’m like what you’re

doing is ancient what you’re doing is

it’s it’s this is what people did twenty

years ago thirty years ago for you can’t

152:03

really do that anymore

152:04

you can’t misrepresent people you used

152:06

to be able to if you were in the press

152:07

you could take people quote amount of

152:09

context do whatever the fuck you wanted

152:11

put an article about them they couldn’t

152:12

do a goddamn thing about it it happened

152:14

to me in nineteen

it was like ninety-nine

I did a I had a comedy CD that came out

and this woman wrote an article about it

and it just she just lied she lied about

my perspective she lied about the bits

she misquoted the bits she didn’t just

paraphrase them

she changed what the bits were to make

them you know misogynist or hateful or

whatever it was and in doing so I that

there was no recourse there was nothing

that I could do about them like wow I’d

never experienced that before I was like

this is stunning and then I found out

this person did that a lot and this is

what she did and there’s ultimate power

that comes at being the person who has

the pen being the person who has the

typewriter and you you’re the person who

works for you know the Boston Globe or

whatever the publication is that that is

something that existed forever you know

and that you had to be either a friend

of the press you had to play ball you

had you had a bend to their will you to

do what they wanted you to do and they

could misrepresent you and choose to

paint you in any way they like and it’s

one of the reasons why I don’t do

anything anymore

I don’t do any interviews anymore I

don’t do anything I don’t want to do

anything yeah this I do enough man you

153:28

want to know about me it fucking there’s

153:29

a thousand podcasts there’s more than a

153:32

thousand there’s I think there’s there’s

153:35

1,100 and there’s a bunch of other ones

153:37

three right let’s just it doesn’t make

153:38

any sense

153:39

yeah well that that’s that that it may

153:41

also be the position that I increasingly

153:43

find myself in I think it’s the right

153:45

position because then the

153:47

misrepresentations don’t exist anymore

153:48

so then the only problem is the dispute

153:50

over the actual ideological

153:52

conversations or the other the actual

153:55

concept but you know the thing is you

153:57

know you made a point there that’s quite

153:58

interesting it’s like we are in a new

154:00

media landscape so now if someone comes

154:02

out as a as a media figure with some

154:06

institutional credibility and

154:09

misrepresents its exposed and so then

154:12

the question is how much risk should use

154:14

shoulder to expose the proclivity for

154:16

media misrepresentation and the answer

154:19

to that might be some now it might be

154:22

moving you know maybe I’ve done enough

154:23

of that I mean it would be easier for me

154:26

in many ways if I just stopped doing it

154:28

but but there’s some utility and having

154:31

it play out and so

154:33

well so I’m trying to get I’m trying to

154:36

only take those opportunities that

154:38

appear to have more benefit than risk

154:41

and when I defining benefit

154:44

well the question is then what

154:46

constitutes benefit and I guess what

154:48

constitutes benefit is well that would

154:52

further the attempts that I’m making to

154:55

bring information to a vast number of

154:57

people that could conceivably help them

154:59

stabilize and improve their individual

155:02

lives that’s worth a certain amount of

155:03

risk

155:04

well it certainly increases your profile

155:06

increases your profile and even if you

155:08

know you have 60% of these people are

155:10

gonna get a bad perception of you 40% of

155:12

these people that never heard of you now

155:14

we’re going to understand who you are

155:15

because they do further investigation

155:16

yeah so there’s some benefit in that but

155:18

the negative I mean I get text messages

155:21

from random people that I was friends

155:22

with years ago let’s say this Jordan

155:24

Peterson is just such a lying sack of

155:26

shit and he’s this not only I don’t even

155:28

know who the fuck you are and then

155:30

second of all like why are you

155:31

contacting me you know I’m saying hi

155:33

you’re saying he’s a scam artist he’s a

155:40

fraud he’s in it and I’m like wow and so

155:43

they’ll see an interview you know like

155:45

the the Jim Jefferies clip which is a

155:47

minute long or whatever it is or the

155:49

Vice piece or the the initial Kathy

155:52

Newman piece and they just form this

155:55

determined position on you and then Reid

155:58

hit pieces on you and then this is where

156:01

they take their opinion this is where

156:03

it’s from it’s and it’s like these are

the last gasps of a dying medium I

really do I just I think too I don’t I

don’t think that people appreciate it I

think the people that are listening to

this that do appreciate long-form

conversations and with all warts and all

all the ugliness and the mistakes and

the critical errors and the the people

that appreciate that they they they have

156:29

a real hate for being lied to you know

156:32

because it’s it it changed when when you

156:35

try never being treated as if they’re

156:37

stupid yes

156:38

yeah which they aren’t yeah that’s both

156:41

it’s just it’s it’s deceptive when you

156:44

when you added someone and take their

156:47

words

to context and change them around you’re

being deceptive the New York Times did

that again this week they had some

philosophy professor from Hong Kong

University write a piece on me and he

took they quoted me it was a sentence

there’s like the first phrase was in

quotes and then there was some joining

words and then the second phrase was in

quotes and there was some joining words

and then the third phrase was in quotes

and the three quotes added up to a

statement that bore no resemblance

whatsoever to what I was saying how can

they do that in the New York Times that

seems to me to be something that should

be the the I don’t but they still I

don’t think they can do I think they’re

killing their brand so fast that they

can’t but it is so disturbing to me as a

157:24

person who’s been a fan of the New York

157:26

Times forever I just don’t understand

157:28

how they could allow that to happen how

157:30

could you allow your what what is the

157:33

gold standard for journalism how could

157:36

you allow it to become something that

157:37

willfully misrepresents someone they

157:39

never did to push an idea I never did

157:41

put my book on the New York Times

157:43

bestseller list it’s quite comical how’s

157:45

that possible oh they have rules which

157:48

they don’t disclose but one of them

157:50

apparently is well if the book is

157:51

published and counted and distributed in

157:53

the United States then it doesn’t count

157:54

even though they’ve had books like that

157:56

on the New York Times bestseller list

157:57

before and I think okay well is this bad

158:00

or good it’s like well it’s bad because

158:02

to the degree that I might want to be on

158:04

the New York Times bestseller list

158:05

although I haven’t been losing any sleep

158:07

over but you’re selling I know how many

158:09

books are selling yeah it’s basically

158:10

being the best-selling book in the world

158:12

since January you know it’s gone up and

158:14

down to some degree but right it should

158:16

be the number one New York Times

158:18

bestseller so they they they have the

158:20

reasons and but I look at that and I

158:22

think oh well you can only do that ten

158:24

times until you’re done like because

158:27

it’s a fatal error

158:27

you have the gold standard for

158:29

measurement you’re not measuring

158:31

properly you’re burning up your brand

158:34

you think well we’re the New York Times

158:35

so we can burn up our brand it’s like no

158:38

you can’t Newsweek is gone Time magazine

158:40

is a shallow is a shell of its former

158:42

self like the big things disappear and

158:46

they disappear when they get crooked and

158:48

ideologically rigid and so that’s what’s

158:51

happening at the New York Times not with

158:53

everyone there but with plenty of them

158:55

and they’ll die faster than people think

158:58

but it’s so confusing to me that

159:00

it didn’t used to be that yeah and now

159:04

it is and are they just responding to

159:06

this new world where you have to have

159:08

clickbait journalism and you know some

159:11

people are struggling to find people to

159:12

actually buy physical newspapers which

159:14

is well it’s a different thing it’s hard

159:16

to say like because maybe see it’s weird

159:18

because you don’t have to resort to

159:20

clickbait because these long-form

159:23

discussions are the antithesis of

159:24

clickbait right are they struggling in

159:27

terms of like how many people buy them

159:29

safer oh absolutely every newspaper the

159:32

newspapers in Canada went cap and hand

159:34

to the federal government for subsidies

159:36

about six months ago because they’re

159:37

dying so fast and so some of it is

159:40

they’re being supplanted by technology

159:42

that’s a huge part of it but as they are

159:44

supplanted they get more desperate they

159:46

publish more polarizing stories that

159:48

works in the short term to garner more

159:50

views but it alienates people from the

159:52

brand and speeds their demise classic

159:54

death spiral of a big of a big

159:56

organization and that’s going to clean

159:59

things out like mad I mean I don’t know

160:00

where CNN is in the Cable News rankings

160:03

now our cable show rankings but it keeps

160:04

falling but it’s falling in the rankings

160:07

as cable itself disintegrates and dies

160:09

why do you need cable TV right

160:12

no one needs cable TV the only people

160:14

who have cable TV are the people who

160:16

haven’t figured out yet that you can

160:18

replace it entirely online for like 1/10

160:20

the price with with much less hassle but

160:22

the art is people want a location they

160:25

can go to to find out what’s going on in

160:26

the world and this is the one thing that

160:28

they used to represent and you know I

160:31

mean I don’t think Fox News is any

160:33

better I think you just have these

160:34

ideological extremes left and right and

160:37

I remember very clearly watching the

160:39

election coverage before the election

160:42

like we were leading up to the election

160:44

I would go Fox News and then I go CNN I

160:46

just would go back and forth with them

160:48

on my cable yeah and I would just be

160:49

laughing I’m like what is really

160:51

happening in the world because I’m

160:53

getting to different stories I’m getting

160:55

Russia and I’m getting Hillary’s emails

160:56

this is I don’t know what the fuck is

160:58

what what is happening I’m getting pussy

161:00

grabbing and I’m getting you know

161:03

Benghazi yeah you know I’m this is what

161:05

I’m getting and I don’t understand like

161:06

why this is obviously ideological this

161:10

is well not just look it might be that

161:11

as the technology is supplanted

161:14

the ideological polarization increases

161:17

as the thing dies right there struggling

161:19

for anyone to pay attention and this is

161:21

the way they have to do it to any shore

161:23

and I think what’s happening on the

161:24

other side which is the side you occupy

161:27

say is that a new technology that’s long

161:29

form that deals with many of those

161:32

problems is emerging and it’s going to

161:33

emerge it’s going to be victorious

161:35

but in the me might already be

161:37

victorious in the meantime little baby

161:39

stuff still exists in the digital world

161:42

yeah you know and then you’re getting a

161:43

lot of the articles that are written

161:45

about you people are absorbing these

161:46

articles not from a physical form you’re

161:48

getting it from from digital yeah well

161:50

okay so then the sense is well do you

161:52

have fundamental trust in the judgment

161:54

of your fellow man let’s say and my

161:57

answer to that is yes because although

161:59

I’ve been pilloried to a great degree by

162:02

the radical types in the commentariat

162:05

and in that classic journalists though

162:09

comments with regards to me on YouTube

162:11

are 50 to 1 in my favor and and that’s

162:15

even the case when the ideologues put up

162:16

videos about me they’re designed to

162:18

discredit me and I’ve sold a million and

162:21

a half books it’s going to be published

162:23

in 40 countries and thousands of people

162:25

are coming to my lectures and so I would

162:27

say the attempts to discredit me aren’t

162:30

working so and now I think that’s

162:34

because that even like even if you go to

162:35

youtube you can see Jordan Peterson

162:38

smashes leftist journalists you know as

162:40

a clickbait thing someone’s taken a

162:41

two-minute clip from a video and they

162:43

put it out and they’re using that

162:44

clickbait headlines to attract attention

162:46

it’s like it does attract attention and

162:48

that probably even furthers polarization

162:50

but I think that most people enough

162:53

people that’s the prayer enough people

162:56

are going for the long form thorough

162:58

discussion so that the sensible will

163:02

will triumph that’s what I’m hoping for

163:05

the sensible will triumph no I agree and

163:07

I think that is what’s happened yeah I

163:09

think that’s why this fifty to one

163:10

number exists is that there but the the

163:13

number one in that 50 the 50 verses you

163:17

know the 50 people that are actually

163:18

understanding what’s going on and

163:20

agreeing with you versus the number one

163:22

that are trying to willfully

163:24

misrepresent you they still exist and

163:25

they’re loud you know they’re and

163:27

they’re

163:27

to be right and this is one of the

163:29

things that people love to do they love

163:31

to fight to be right instead of

163:33

examining their position and wondering

163:34

whether or not they are taking you out

163:36

of context and misrepresenting your

163:38

positions to the world willfully and

163:40

doing so in order to paint a negative

163:43

picture of you that does not accurately

163:45

represent who you are what you stand for

163:47

yes but by doing this virtue without any

163:50

of the work they’re also destroying

163:52

their own credits this is what’s

163:54

devastating it’s like the in they’re

163:55

trying to win they’re killing themselves

163:58

right well and that’s a good that’s a

164:00

good motif for the entire conversation

164:03

it’s like try hard to hard to win you

164:06

kill yourself you were talking last

164:07

night when we were when we were over

164:08

dinner you said that one of the most

164:10

deadly things for a fighter to do is to

164:11

overestimate his own position you’re

164:14

gonna get your abilities yes if you

164:17

overestimate your abilities you you’re

164:18

you’re in deep deep trouble because

164:20

you’re gonna get a wake-up call right

164:22

and objectivity is one of the most

164:24

critical aspects of development you have

164:26

to be you have to be objectively

164:28

assessing your strengths and weaknesses

164:30

at every step of the way that’s brava

164:33

bravado right I’m I’m trying to prove

164:35

how I’m so powerful I’m so powerful it’s

164:37

an ego shield and that’s why I was

164:39

saying that the ego is the enemy were

164:40

talking about right so I get you know I

164:42

want to get into this because this is a

164:44

I think this is a fascinating thing with

164:47

you personally that your diet you’re on

164:51

this carnivore dog yeah no okay so I

164:53

want to preface that with something I am

164:55

NOT a dietary expert so I’m not speaking

164:58

as an uninformed citizen yes well this

165:01

is anecdotal evidence from a human being

165:03

it is dealt with autoimmune issues yes

165:05

their whole life yes you have done this

165:08

for how long now I’ve been on a pure

165:10

carnivore diet for about two months and

165:13

a pretty very very low carb greens only

165:16

modified carnivore diet for about a year

165:20

so in the year and-and-and-and a

165:22

low-carb diet for two years so from the

165:25

time that I’ve known you I’ve known you

165:26

for what two and a half years now

165:27

sometimes yeah yeah when I first met you

165:29

you had much more weight on your body

165:31

yeah you look different yeah and you

165:34

were back then you were eating like the

165:36

standard diet right like normal people

165:38

yes pasta

165:40

bread yeah chicken whatever yes right

165:42

you shifted over to only meat and greens

165:46

I saw you and like you look fantastic

165:48

I’m like what are you doing

165:50

you’re like I changed my diet I only

165:51

meat in green so I was like wow that’s

165:53

fascinating well I felt like okay what

165:56

you’re doing is cutting out refined

165:57

sugars and all these different things

165:59

that are problematic preservatives all

166:01

the bullshit processed foods and you’re

166:04

having this extreme health benefit I was

166:05

like wow that’s really excellent you’re

166:07

showing great discipline then you

166:10

decided to take it to another place and

166:11

cut out the greens you know what was the

166:13

motivation for cutting out the greens

166:15

well all of the motivation for this has

166:17

been my experience with my daughter

166:19

because she has an unbelievably serious

166:21

autoimmune disease I just talked to her

166:22

this what is it called

166:23

well it’s rich arthritis but it there’s

166:26

there’s way more to it than that

166:28

but the arthritis was the major set of

166:30

symptoms she had 40 affected joints and

166:32

she had to have her hip replaced and her

166:34

ankle replaced when she was 15 and 16

166:36

and so she basically hobbled around on

166:38

two broken legs for two years in extreme

166:41

agony and that was just a tiny fraction

166:42

of the whole set of problems I just

166:45

talked to her this morning she’s in

166:47

Chicago looks like she has to have her

166:48

ankle replacement replaced so that’s

166:51

next on the horizon but but apart from

166:54

that she is doing so well now it is

166:55

absolutely beyond comprehension so she’s

166:59

she’s she’s very trim she had a baby but

167:02

she’s very trimmed she’s down to about

167:03

118 pounds she’s about five foot six

167:06

she’s just glowing with health all of

167:09

her autoimmune system symptoms are gone

167:11

all of them and she was also seriously

167:13

depressed like severely depressed way

167:16

worse than you think she couldn’t stay

167:17

awake for more than about six hours

167:19

without taking Ritalin

167:21

and she was dying and hide a cousin my

167:23

cousin’s daughter she died when she was

167:26

thirty from an associated autoimmune

167:28

condition so there’s a fair bit of this

167:30

in our family it was bloody bleak I’ll

167:32

tell you and my wife always had a

167:34

suspicion that this was dietary related

167:37

you know and well we did notice that

167:41

when Michaela was young if she ate

167:43

oranges or strawberries that she’d get a

167:46

rash like there were there were there

167:47

and then when she developed arthritis if

167:50

she ate oranges in particular that would

167:51

definitely cause a flare it was the only

167:53

thing we could see

167:54

the problem is is that in order to

167:56

identify a dietary component the

167:58

response has to be pretty quick after

167:59

you eat the thing like if it’s two days

168:01

later how the hell are you gonna figure

168:02

that out a lot of these responses appear

168:04

to be delayed for four days and last a

168:07

month so good luck figuring that out

168:10

anyways Mikayla noticed about three

168:12

years ago no more than that now five

168:13

years ago she was at Concordia

168:15

University and struggling with her with

168:18

her illness and and all the Association

168:20

associated problems she noticed that

168:22

around exam time she was starting to

168:24

develop real skin problems and my

168:27

cousin’s daughter who I mentioned had

168:29

really bad skin problems and wounds that

168:31

wouldn’t heal and that was partly part

168:32

of the process that eventually killed

168:34

her and she thought oh it must be stress

168:36

and then she thought wait a second I

168:38

really changed my diet when I’m studying

168:40

all I do is eat bagels all I do is eat

168:42

bread sandwiches she thought maybe it’s

168:44

the bread so she cut out gluten first

168:47

and it had a remarkable effect like a

168:50

really remarkable effect and then she

168:53

went on a radical elimination diet all

168:55

the way down to nothing but chicken and

168:57

broccoli and then her symptoms started

168:59

to drop off one by one like and and like

169:02

one of the things that happened is she

169:03

started to wake up in the morning she

169:04

started to be able to stay awake all day

169:06

when you’re only staying awake for six

169:07

hours with riddlin staying awake all day

169:09

that’s like having a life and so a whole

169:12

bunch of things improved then her

169:14

depression went away and I’ve had

169:17

depression since I was 13 probably and

169:19

very severe and I’ve treated at a

169:21

variety of ways some of them quite

169:22

successfully but it’s been a constant

169:24

battle and my father had it and his

169:26

father had it and it’s all just rife in

169:28

my family and my wife has autoimmune

169:31

problems and her niece a depression

169:32

define it oh oh would you define it

169:36

because that’s a word that’s a blanket

169:38

term yeah

169:38

well imagine imagine that you wake up

169:40

and that you remember that all your

169:42

family was killed in a horrible accident

169:43

yesterday you would feel that even

169:45

though the times wrong yes yes

169:47

just-just-just worse than that because

169:50

well one of the things Mikayla told me

169:52

was she thought well what’s it like to

169:53

be depressed

169:54

imagine you have a dog and you really

169:55

loved the dog and then the dog dies and

169:57

then about three years ago our dog died

170:00

and that was Mikayla’s dog and she

170:02

really liked that dog and she said that

170:05

was bad but it’s nowhere near as bad as

170:06

being depressed

170:08

and I asked her to at one point when she

170:09

was about 15 or 16 I said look you’ve

170:12

got a choice kid here’s the choice you

170:14

can either have depression or arthritis

170:16

which one I’ll take the arthritis

170:21

after she’d lost two joints so it was no

170:26

joke it’s no joke man it there isn’t any

170:28

no I wouldn’t say that I wouldn’t say

170:31

there’s nothing worse because worse is a

170:33

very deep hole right but it’s bad yeah

170:35

people prove you wrong right oh yes

170:37

definitely worse worse is a deep hole

170:39

anyways her depression went away all

170:41

these symptoms went away and like

170:43

radically so what changed her from

170:45

chicken and broccoli to carnivore well

170:47

she she kept experimenting and she got

170:51

very sensitive to all sorts of foods in

170:53

the aftermath of that too so this is why

170:55

I wouldn’t recommend that anybody does

170:56

this casually because we don’t

170:57

understand much about it but the upshot

170:59

was that well she kept she kept she kept

171:02

experimenting and she started to add

171:04

things back and take them away and

171:06

sometimes when she added things the

171:07

results were devastating she was like

171:09

done for a month she eats the wrong

171:10

thing done for a month all the symptoms

171:13

came back the depression came back she

171:15

thought that her whole dietary theory

171:16

was wrong because it lasted so long it

171:18

was so extreme and it’s like I took her

171:20

two years to figure out that really what

171:22

she could eat was beef and greens and

171:24

then she figured out that she could only

171:25

eat beef so greens themselves well look

171:29

so what happened okay so two years ago

171:32

she said dad you have tried this diet

171:33

because you have a lot of the same

171:34

symptoms as me now I didn’t have

171:36

arthritis but I had a lot of the other

171:38

symptoms and I thought oh Christ

171:41

okay Mikayla I can try anything for a

171:43

month she said try it for a month I

171:44

thought okay whatever I can hang by my

171:46

fingernails from the windowsill for a

171:48

month it’s like it’s just not that big a

171:50

deal

171:50

and so I eliminated I went on really low

171:54

carb diet okay so this is what happened

171:56

I had gastric reflux disorder and I was

172:00

snoring quite a lot I stopped snoring

172:03

the first week I thought what the hell

172:05

that’s supposed to be associated with

172:07

weight loss because I had gained some

172:09

weight I weighed about 212 pounds and

172:11

I’m I what six one and a half so that

172:12

was my maximum weight I stopped snoring

172:15

which was a great relief to tear me so

172:17

that just quit and that’s a big deal

172:18

right because if you snore you have

172:19

sleep apnea and then you don’t sleep

172:20

right it’s like not a good thing okay

172:22

next I started waking up in the mornings

172:25

I’d never been able to wake up in the

172:27

mornings my whole life I always had to

172:29

stumble to the shower and then maybe I

172:31

could wake up took me an hour and I felt

172:33

terrible and so

172:34

all the sudden I woke up it was like oh

172:36

look at that I’m awake in the morning

172:38

and I’m clear-headed and things aren’t

172:40

gloomy and horrible it’s like well he’s

172:42

not weird then I lost seven pounds the

172:44

first month I thought seven pounds

172:47

that’s a lot in a month and I’d already

172:48

gone for a whole year on a sugar-free

172:50

diet I didn’t lose any weight and I’d be

172:52

the exercise a sugar free but did you

172:53

cut out bread no no it was just no

172:55

desserts no sugar no and I thought that

172:57

might do it didn’t make any difference

172:58

at all seven pounds well then then I

173:02

lost seven pounds the next month then I

173:04

lost seven pounds the next month I lost

173:06

seven pounds every month for seven

173:07

months like I’d throw away all my

173:09

clothes I went back to the same weight

173:10

that I was when I was 26 and my

173:12

psoriasis disappeared and I had floaters

173:15

in my right eye and they cleared up and

173:17

then the last thing that went away from

173:20

me I was still having a bitch of a time

173:21

with mood regulation and that sucked

173:23

because when I changed my diet I didn’t

173:24

respond to antidepressants properly

173:26

anymore they weren’t working and so

173:28

although I was getting better physically

173:30

on a variety of ways like radical ways I

173:33

was really having a bitch of a time

173:35

regulating my mood and I was having

173:36

sporadic really negative reactions to

173:38

food when I ate something I shouldn’t so

173:40

that took about a year and half to clear

173:42

up and I was still really anxious in the

173:44

morning up to three months ago like

173:45

horribly and then it would get better

173:47

all day people said well you’re under a

173:48

lot of stress and I thought yeah yeah

173:50

I’ve been under a lot of stress for like

173:52

ten years it’s like it’s a lot but it

173:54

wasn’t any more stressful than helping

173:56

my daughter deal with her illness that’s

173:58

for sure that no this is something

173:59

different and she said to me quit eating

174:03

greens and I thought oh really

174:04

Jesus Mikayla I’m eating cucumbers

174:07

lettuce broccoli and chicken and beef

174:11

it’s like I have to cut out the goddamn

174:12

greens it’s like try it for a month okay

174:17

within a week I was 25% less anxious in

174:20

the morning within two weeks 75% and

174:23

I’ve been better every single day I’m

174:24

better now probably than I’ve ever been

174:26

in my life and I haven’t been taking

174:27

antidepressants for a whole year so I

174:30

don’t know what and I weigh 162 pounds

174:33

like I have no I’m and I’ve actually

174:36

gained musculature I’ve been doing some

174:38

working out but not a lot and so I can

174:42

sleep six hours a night no problem I

174:44

wake up the morning I’m awake if I take

174:45

a 15 minute nap that used to take me an

174:47

hour to recover for

174:48

that’s gone here’s the coolest thing

174:50

I’ve had gum disease since I was 25

174:53

that’s been serious enough to have I’ve

174:55

had to have minor surgical interventions

174:57

scraping and that sort of thing to keep

174:59

it at bay

174:59

it’s go on I checked with my dentist

175:02

before this last tour no inflammation

175:04

and that’s associated with heart disease

175:06

by the way gum inflammation and

175:08

gingivitis it’s a good risk factor heart

175:10

disease it means the systemic

175:11

inflammation is gone and it’s not

175:13

supposed to happen you’re not supposed

175:15

to recover from gingivitis and my gums

175:17

are in perfect shape it’s like what the

175:19

hell so here’s what happened I lost 50

175:21

pounds it’s like that’s a lot right I’m

175:26

nowhere near as hungry as I used to be

175:27

my appetites probably formed by 70% I

175:30

don’t get blood sugar dysregulation

175:32

problems I need way less sleep I get up

175:36

in the morning and I’m fine I’m not

175:38

anxious I’m not depressed I don’t have

175:39

psoriasis my legs were numb on the sides

175:42

that’s gone I’m certainly intellectually

175:47

at my best at the moment which is a

175:50

great relief especially doing this tour

175:51

depression is gone

175:54

I’m stronger I can swim better and my

176:01

gum disease is gone it’s like what the

176:03

hell and you’ve done you’ve done no

176:05

blood work so you don’t know what your

176:06

lipid lipid profile is or no I’ll get

176:09

that done again when I go back take any

176:10

vitamins no no I eat beef and salt and

176:13

water that’s it and I never cheat ever

176:17

not even a little bit no not soda no

176:19

wine I drink club soda well that’s still

176:23

water well you know when you’re down to

176:26

that level no it’s not Joe there’s

176:28

there’s club soda Joe’s really bubbly

176:31

there’s Perrier which is sort of bubbly

176:33

there’s flat water and there’s hot water

176:34

so that’s crazy well we ate last night

176:40

and I ate what you ate just we both had

176:43

that giant tomahawk yeah I had wine

176:46

though yeah

176:47

I’m curious about this I’m very curious

176:50

and I think you might try it but I eat a

176:53

lot of vegetables yeah but I don’t have

176:54

any problems like health problems hey

176:56

man like I’m not

176:58

disclaimer number two I am not

177:01

recommending this to anyone however I

177:03

have had however I have had many many

177:06

people come up to me on the tour and say

177:09

look I’ve been following your daughter’s

177:10

blog and I’ve lost like a hundred pounds

177:13

I think what you lost a hundred pounds

177:16

see I lost 100 pounds in six months I

177:17

talked to a woman yesterday she lost 15

177:19

pounds in one month she was 70 it’s like

177:22

this is all right here’s a question

177:25

why is everyone fat and stupid that’s a

177:29

question man because it’s new is there

177:32

something else it is it’s new and it’s

177:35

not a sedentary lifestyle that that

177:37

hypothesis doesn’t seem to hold water

177:39

there’s something wrong with the way

177:41

we’re eating and the what’s wrong is

177:43

that we’re eating way too many

177:44

carbohydrates I think but they’re never

177:46

on a no x8 shift the elimination of most

177:49

carbohydrates has made a big shift in my

177:51

life and I do cheat occasionally with

177:54

bread and occasionally with pasta I will

177:57

I will go off with ice cream and things

177:59

along those lines but most of the time

178:02

I’m just eating meat and vegetables most

178:05

of the time and then I have a cheat day

178:07

like you know once a week like yeah

178:09

especially if I go to dinner I’ll have a

178:11

little pasta and it doesn’t seem to mess

178:13

too bad but I do feel shitty after I do

178:16

it it’s like for simple mouth pleasure

178:18

I’m allowing myself to feel tired after

178:21

we’re tired yeah that’s a big one man

178:23

yeah but like I out yeah like well

178:26

really I can’t no and it’s so

178:29

interesting to like I can’t believe I

178:31

can wake up in the morning okay that’s

178:33

never happened to me in my whole life

178:35

and when I was a kid 13 12 I had a bitch

178:38

of a time waking up in the morning it

178:40

was just brutal I just thought that’s

178:42

how it was this is what I mean again I’m

178:44

not a nutritionist either but what’s

178:46

fascinating to me is I haven’t heard any

178:49

negative stories about people doing this

178:50

well I have a negative story okay okay

178:53

one of the things that both Mikayla and

178:56

I noticed was that when we restricted

178:59

our diet and then ate something we

179:01

weren’t supposed to the reaction to

179:03

eating what we weren’t supposed to was

179:04

absolutely catastrophic but it show what

179:07

did you switch to what did you eat

179:09

rather um well the worst response I

179:11

think we’re allergic to or allergic

179:13

whatever the hell this is having an

179:15

inflammatory response to something

179:17

called sulfites and we had some apple

179:19

cider that had sulfites in it and that

179:21

was really not good like I was done for

179:23

a month that was the first time I talked

179:25

to Sam Harris you were done for a month

179:27

oh yeah it took me out for a month it

179:28

was awful real yeah yeah so I would sell

179:31

oh and what so this is right before this

179:32

whole truth conversation with Sam Harris

179:35

at the Guthrie in the mud during during

179:36

it was I think the day I talked to Sam

179:39

was like the worst day of my life not

179:40

because of talking to Sam but it was

179:43

just physical Jesus I was so dead but I

179:45

didn’t want to not do it

179:46

cider like what was his own fights in

179:49

what was it doing there oh it produced

179:52

an overwhelming sense of impending doom

179:55

and I seriously been overwhelming like

179:57

there’s no way I could have lived like

179:59

that if that would have lasted for see

180:01

Mikayla knew by that point that it would

180:03

probably only last a month and I was

180:04

like a month yeah my fucking cider well

180:08

I didn’t sleep that that month I didn’t

180:10

sleep for 25 days I didn’t sleep at all

180:12

I didn’t sleep at all for 25 days how is

180:15

it possible that I’ll tell you how it’s

180:16

possible you lay in bed frozen in

180:20

something approximating terror for eight

180:22

hours and then you get up oh my god oh

180:24

yeah no and this is some fucking cider

180:26

from

180:27

that’s what we thought yeah I mean look

180:29

again I don’t know what the hell I’m

180:32

talking about okay this is all a mystery

180:34

to me

180:35

the fact that my daughter was so sick

180:37

see the one thing that I did know cuz I

180:39

scoured the literature on arthritis when

180:41

she was a kid the scientific literature

180:42

and because we were interested in the

180:44

dietary connection and the only thing I

180:46

could find that was reliable was that if

180:48

people with arthritis fasted their

180:51

symptoms reliably went away and that’s

180:53

actually a well-documented finding but

180:55

then if they started to eat again then

180:57

there were symptoms came back and I

180:59

thought well what the hell does it not

181:01

matter what they eat they can’t be

181:03

reactive to everything it’s like no but

181:07

they can be reactive to almost

181:08

everything and the difference between

181:10

everything and almost everything that’s

181:12

a big difference

181:13

and so Mikayla seems to be maybe me too

181:15

and hammies on the same diet because she

181:18

has autoimmune problems on her side of

181:19

the family so Mikayla seemed to inherit

181:21

all of them your skin looks better old

181:24

Jesus Joe I’m waiting whatever here yeah

181:26

yeah you you you look like more vibrant

181:28

it’s very strange thank you thank you

181:30

welcome

181:31

but the see my point is I you’re saying

181:34

that there’s a there is problems with

181:37

this diet but that doesn’t seem to be a

181:38

problem with a diet seems a problem with

181:40

deviating from the diet your body

181:41

becomes a custom with well one of the

181:43

thighs Isis that we’ve been pursuing and

181:46

there’s some justification for this and

181:47

the scientific literature is that the

181:49

reason that you lay on layers of fat is

181:52

because the fat acts as a buffer between

181:54

you and the toxic things that you’re

181:56

eating because fat is actually an organ

181:58

it has functions other than merely the

181:59

storage of of calories and maybe when

182:02

you strip out that protective layer then

182:05

you’re more sensitive to what you

182:06

shouldn’t be eating this is all

182:08

speculative hypotheses right or maybe

182:10

you sensitize yourself by removing it

182:12

from your constant diet I don’t bloody

182:14

well know well I would think it would be

182:16

much more likely that because you think

182:17

about people who are alcoholics they

182:19

develop a tolerance to alcohol

182:20

you know you get off of that and then

182:22

you have a drink and your tolerances are

182:24

shot and then you immediately have a

182:26

reverse reaction to the alcohol yeah

182:28

same thing with marijuana yeah when

182:30

people do it all the time you your body

182:32

becomes tolerant well I think I think

182:34

that the layering of fat on might be

182:36

part of the tolerance mechanism hmm so

182:39

it’s not merely a matter of

182:40

caloric intake it’s a matter of of toxic

182:43

telluric intake buffered by whatever it

182:45

is that fat is doing as a neuro

182:47

endocrine organ but again like I said I

182:50

said I’m out of my depth here but you

182:52

know the whole everyone’s out of their

182:54

depth the goddamn food pyramid was made

182:56

by the Department of Agriculture not the

182:58

Department of Health it wasn’t

182:59

predicated on any scientific studies

183:01

whatsoever

183:01

we should have we shouldn’t be eating

183:03

massive quantities of corn syrup we we

183:05

way too many carbohydrates Michaela

183:09

posted a paper the other day a doctor

183:11

has successfully treated type 1 diabetes

183:14

with a carnivore diet type 1 not type 2

183:17

so that’s bloody impressive yeah it’s

183:21

it’s very curious to me because you’re

183:24

talking about the one adverse reaction

183:26

which is when you deviated from the diet

183:28

yeah what I’m talking about is when I

183:30

read people’s accounts of trying this

183:33

diet it’s almost universally positive

183:35

you know but again that’s probably and

183:41

it’s the same with all these stories

183:42

that I’m collecting as I’m touring and

183:44

you know people lots of people have come

183:46

up to me and said look I lost 45 pounds

183:48

in the last three months I think yeah I

183:51

think what’s shocking to me I think well

183:53

what do you make of that say well I

183:55

can’t believe it well who can oh I

183:56

couldn’t believe it

183:57

fifty pounds it’s like first of all I

184:00

didn’t know I had fifty pounds to lose

184:01

you know I thought it was maybe 20

184:03

pounds heavier than I should have been

184:04

there should have been 185 something

184:06

like that I guess that’s 25 to 30 pounds

184:09

that was the maximum thought no no I

184:11

lost I meant 162 and I was at 212 so

184:14

what’s that fifty fifty pounds it’s a

184:18

lot of weight Jesus I threw had to throw

184:20

all my clothes away

184:22

it’s I can’t believe it when I saw you

184:24

last night I was like you’re so slim

184:26

like your your stomach is completely

184:28

flat and it’s and this is not a lean

184:31

mean fighting yeah man and you’re not a

184:33

an exercise fanatic it’s not like you’re

184:36

starving yourself it’s not like you know

184:37

and I’m not running 5 that’s another

184:39

thing I should say to people if you want

184:40

to try a diet like this you eat enough

184:43

meat and fat so you were not hungry okay

184:46

you can’t get hungry

184:47

you’re not eating enough if you’re

184:48

hungry and if you’re hungry you’re gonna

184:50

cheat and it’s gonna drive you stark

184:51

raving mad the other thing that was

184:53

really cool is like I really liked

184:54

sweets like I’ve kind of lived on peanut

184:56

butter sandwiches and chocolate milk

184:58

not really but that was my go-to food

185:00

you know both of which were terrible for

185:03

me but after I stopped eating

185:06

carbohydrates for a month the

185:08

carbohydrate cravings went away you know

185:11

last night when we were out for dinner

185:12

somebody ordered bread pudding and I

185:13

bloody love bread pudding with caramel

185:15

and and and ice cream so it was sitting

185:17

there and I could smell it like you know

185:19

I thought I could go all fantastic mr.

185:21

Fox on that bread pudding and just tear

185:24

it down in about 15 seconds but it

185:26

wasn’t it wasn’t as intense as a craving

185:28

for a cigarette if you’re Nick’s

185:29

ex-smoker it was like God be really nice

185:31

to eat that but like my appetite

185:34

declined by about 75% that’s been

185:36

permanent that’s been so there’s a

185:38

perverse thing for you

185:39

I eat way less and now I’m not as hungry

185:42

okay how does that make sense

185:44

well you’re not eating way less you’re

185:46

eating way less thing yes you have 30

185:48

ounce steak last night yes yes I’m doing

185:51

my best not to be hungry although it

185:53

didn’t look like I was 30 no no no

185:55

there’s a small 30 on the steak well I

185:57

think it starts out 30 ounces before

185:59

they cook it right loses a considerable

186:01

right right very fatty right but that’s

186:03

the other thing too you you must have to

186:06

get a lot of fat yeah well I eat fatty

186:08

cuts of steak and yeah Michaela is

186:09

buying fat directly from the butcher

186:12

store and we cooked that up cut it into

186:13

small pieces and fry it up till it’s

186:15

crispy Wow it’s actually quite delicious

186:18

it’s not bread pudding with ice cream

186:20

but it’s not funny

186:21

you mean Dino it’s so ridiculous well I

186:23

wanna I want your blood profile I want

186:25

to find out what’s going on with you

186:27

because one of the big misconceptions

186:29

when it comes to cholesterol and

186:30

saturated fat and food is that if you

186:33

eat dietary cholesterol that it affects

186:35

your

186:35

blood cholesterol levels it’s not it’s a

186:38

super common misconception well those so

186:40

the thing about clinical studies with

186:42

diet are virtually impossible to conduct

186:44

because you just can’t you can’t conduct

186:46

a proper randomly distributed controlled

186:49

experiment it’s too hard so a lot of

186:51

what we’re trying to do is pull out

186:52

information from correlations right you

186:55

can’t do it which is one of the real

186:56

problems with correlating meat with

186:59

cancer and diabetes and all these

187:01

different diseases is because people are

187:02

eating a bunch of shit with that oh yeah

187:04

and they have different lifestyle

187:06

profiles or like there’s just endless

187:07

numbers of confounding variables you

187:10

only need one con founding variable

187:12

that’s that’s relevant to screw up the

187:13

study right you can’t get that

187:15

information with correlational studies

187:17

we try because it’s impossible to do the

187:19

studies but how many people are

187:20

incredulous when they’re honey people

187:22

wouldn’t when they’re hearing about this

187:24

Oh everybody everybody well you or not

187:27

but you know you’re interested in this

187:29

sort of thing but they should be

187:29

incredulous like when people make absurd

187:31

claims is like oh well I had 50 health

187:34

problems and I stopped eating everything

187:35

but meat and they went away it’s like

187:36

whoo sure it’s like yeah well wasn’t you

187:39

dying so yeah and I see the results and

187:44

I know it’s an anecdote I bloody well

187:45

understand that and I’m highly skeptical

187:47

about all of this but I’m telling you so

187:49

that’s why I’m telling you what happened

187:51

to me and what happened to my daughter

187:52

and also what happened to my wife

187:53

because she’s Tammy was always in good

187:55

shape and she’s exercised a lot and she

187:58

reduced to the to the pure carnivore

188:01

died about a month ago she lost like 12

188:04

pounds

188:04

she was already slim she’s back to the

188:06

same weight she was when she was 21

188:09

she’s like 58 you know and she doesn’t

188:13

look 58 I can tell you that so it’s

188:16

really fascinating it’s really

188:18

fascinating because I just I as a person

188:22

who studied diet for many years I would

188:25

assume that you need phytonutrients I

188:27

would assume do you need vitamins

188:29

supplements like vitamin C for example

188:30

turns out if you don’t eat carbohydrates

188:32

you don’t need vitamin C ha who woulda

188:34

guessed how does that work I don’t I

188:37

don’t remember Michaela outlined a paper

188:39

for me

188:39

vitamin C is necessary for carbohydrate

188:41

metabolism but if you don’t if again

188:44

remember everyone listening I am NOT an

188:46

expert in this field right so

188:49

but but I want you to get your blood

188:52

tested because I think if be pretty

188:55

funny if it was in good shape yeah it

188:57

would be I mean I’d like to find out

188:59

what your nutrient levels are and where

189:00

they’re coming yeah I mean what what I’m

189:03

getting a little cramping in my toes

189:05

from time to time so I’m not sure about

189:07

potassium possibility that’s a

189:10

supplement it’s very easy which is why

189:12

I’m concerned but like and also minerals

189:15

you know you know in certain minerals

189:17

you’re getting from vegetables that

189:18

you’re probably not getting yeah well

189:20

this is all like look it seems not hard

189:23

to supplement that stuff though

189:24

colloidal minerals you know there’s some

189:26

mineral pills you could take plenty of

189:28

well there are plants are people who

189:30

basically lived on meat you know the any

189:32

what did the mess I basically did yeah

189:35

there some supplementation but not a lot

189:36

yeah and apparently if you do a

189:39

carnivore diet you’re supposed to eat

189:40

more organ meat and I do some of that

189:42

but not a lot but I can tell you like

189:44

I’m I mean well look I wouldn’t be doing

189:48

this if it wasn’t producing positive

189:49

results yeah it’s not like it’s fun

189:51

running for a while well it makes you a

189:53

social pariah mm-hm like let’s invite

189:56

the Petersons over oh yeah they don’t

189:58

eat anything oh we have other friends

189:59

that’s like well that’s how it works

190:01

it’s not malevolence right it’s just if

190:03

you’re a pain no one invites you out so

190:05

so I’m a social pain and an ideological

190:08

pain and now I’m a nutritional pain

190:10

because there’s no friends how difficult

190:12

is it when you’re trying to get

190:13

breakfast like what do you do when you

190:15

oh well lots of times when we were

190:17

traveling we cook so we’ll usually stay

190:20

in places where you can cook oh okay but

190:22

most places you can get a steak mm-hmm

190:25

and so that’s mostly what we do I’ve

190:26

been traveling in a Motorhome and so

190:28

we’ve been cooking in the Motorhome

190:29

and so not carry beef jerky with me

190:32

which we make what so yeah it’s crazy

190:35

you make your own beef jerky well it’s

190:38

like we have a dehydrator and you just

190:40

basically put salt on and throw in the

190:41

dehydrator so that works pretty well you

190:45

anticipate continuing this well forever

190:48

Cod forevers a long time I’d like to be

190:51

able to eat more things but I’m gonna

190:52

experiment with that very very very very

190:55

very cautiously I’m gonna add mushrooms

190:57

next because maybe I could eat them well

191:00

this is why I’m asking there

191:02

positive benefits that a lot of people

191:04

achieve and and experience when they

191:07

switch to a vegan diet yeah one of the

191:09

things it is is you get off of the

191:10

standard American diet with lots of

191:12

refined sugars and a lot of

191:15

preservatives a little shit and then you

191:18

find positive benefits Chris Kresser has

191:21

gone into depth about this but then over

191:22

time the nutritional bent deficiencies

191:25

in that start to wear on your health yep

191:28

and I’m wondering well it’s certainly

191:32

possible well certainly eventually this

191:34

diet will kill me no life will well