Joe Rogan Experience #1070 – Jordan Peterson

which which way these people are
55:55
thinking and why they think yeah well
and bad as that is and rife with
conflict as that is the alternative is
to separate as you pointed out into two
camps that don’t talk yes and the thing
is the the consequence of not talking is
that you fight that that’s the end game
because the only way you can stop from
fighting with other people is by
negotiating with them and you know one
of the things that’s also interesting
and this is partly why Silicon Valley
leans to the left is that a fair bit of
your political preference is determined
by your biological temperament it’s a
strongly influenced so if you’re a
creative type who’s kind of disorderly
then you’re likely to be on the liberal
left end of the distribution and if
you’re a non creative type who’s orderly
and and especially if your orderly then
you tend to be on the right-wing end of
things and so and well why is that why
do those variations exist well they
exist because some of the time your best
strategy is to do what other people have
done and shut the hell up
and just do it run the algorithm write
the pathways already laid clear it works
stay in the damn rut and move forward
okay so that’s the conservative approach
and when things are going right it’s the
right approach the problem is is that
sometimes it’s not the right approach
because something is shifted and so
something new has to emerge and so then
there’s a bunch of people who are
adapted to the new and those are the
entrepreneurial and creative types and
of course they dominate Silicon Valley
because it’s a very entrepreneurial it’s
a very entrepreneurial what would you
call it geography and so they’re gonna
lean to the left but they have to
understand people have to understand
that the left and the right need each
other the Liberals and the Conservatives
need each other liberals start companies
conservatives run them and the problem
with the Conservatives is well they can
only run a company in one direction
because they’re conservative they don’t
think outside the box but so if the
company is working in the product line
is good and every
stable like hire some conservatives
because they’ll maximize efficiency and
then move down that track but if the
track is no longer going in a good
direction because something’s change the
environments change well then you gotta
bring in the creative people and so we
need each other and the only way that we
can survive the fact that we’re
different and the fact that we need each
other is by continually talking they
have talked constantly it’s like well
how much of what we’re doing should we
preserve versus how much of what we’re
doing should we transform and the answer
is we don’t know because the environment
keeps changing so what do we do about
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of so there’s this theory it’s a lovely
theory that’s laid out right at the
beginning of the Bible that says that
if you tell the truth you transform the
potential of being into a habitable
actuality that’s how it works so we say
well how do you want it how do you make
the world better tell the truth because
the world you bring into being as a
consequence of telling the truth will be
a good world and I believe that’s true I
think it’s true metaphorically I think
it’s true theologically and I think it’s
true like at the practical and
scientific level as well I think it’s
true and all those levels simultaneously
so that’s been ridiculously exciting to
just sort through I think this notion
and one of the things you said that I
think really resonates is that there’s
not a voice out there that is advocating
for responsibility and that is talking
about how important this is and I think
this is an inherent principle that most
people are kind of aware of and it feels
good to them to hear
I get resonates so you feel it you you
when you when you’re saying this clean
your room you know put your house in
order like yeah yeah how come I’m not
hearing this right I’m not hearing this
well it’s so funny because one of the
things psychologists have done for the
last 20 years especially the social
psychologist has pushed this idea of
self-esteem you should feel good about
yourself and I think why would you tell
someone 20 that it’s like you should
feel good about who you are it’s like no
you shouldn’t why should you feel good
about who you are it’s like you should
feel good about who you could be that’s
way better cuz you got sixty years to
turn into who you could wait a minute
are you what your accomplishments are or
are you dis individual going through
this journey I mean I don’t think
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there’s anything wrong with feeling good
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about who you are as long as it’s
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tempered by an understanding of
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potential and what you have accomplished
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versus what you can accomplish well I
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think having confidence is a big part of
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it it is it is and I’m not saying that
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people shouldn’t have confidence but
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like often you take young people say
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there are sixteen to twenty two and
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they’re not really feeling that good
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about who they are right because their
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life is chaotic and and disorder and
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they don’t know where they’re going and
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they don’t know which way is up a call
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so there could be bad parenting going on
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and I think that’s one of the reasons
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why presen eights with people this idea
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of be happy for you about who you are
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right feel good about who you write but
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but the thing is it has
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to be stated with precision it’s like
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yes it’s like Lucia you should treat
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yourself as if you’re valuable
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especially in the Ho’s Angela but you
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should concentrate on who you should
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become especially if you’re young and so
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let’s say you’re miserable and
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nihilistic and chaotic and depressed and
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all of that now and you have your
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reasons you know terrible parenting
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abuse all of those things it’s like well
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you should feel good about yourself it’s
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like no no it’s it’s not it’s not the
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right message is that it’s more like you
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should understand how much potential
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there is within you to set that straight
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and then you should do everything you
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can to manifest that in the world and it
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will set it straight and that’s better
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than self esteem it’s like you’re you’re
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in a crooked horrible position okay fine
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there’s a lot of suffering and pain
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associated with that yeah you can’t just
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feel good about that because it’s not
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good but you can do something about it
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you can genuinely do something about it
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and I think all the evidence suggests
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that that’s the case yes so I’m telling
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telling young people look there’s no
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matter how bad your situation is I’m not
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gonna pretend it’s okay it’s not okay
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it’s tragic
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tainted with malevolence and some people
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really get hurt by malevolent people
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like you know terribly hurt sometimes
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they never recover it’s really awful but
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there’s more to you than you think and
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if you stand up and face it with with
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the positive with a with a noble vision
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with discipline and intent you can go
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far farther to overcoming it than you
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can imagine
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and that’s the principle upon which you
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should predicate your behavior and I
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think that one of the things that’s
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really nice about being the clinical
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psychologist is that this isn’t just
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guesswork like one of the things we know
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two things in clinical psychology one is
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truthful conversations redeemed people
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because if you come to a clinical
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psychologist who’s worth is salt you’ll
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have a truthful conversation the
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conversation is well here’s what’s wrong
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with my life and here’s what caused it
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you know maybe it takes a year to have
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that conversation and both of the
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participants are doing everything they
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can to lay it out properly here’s how it
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might be fixed here’s what a beneficial
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future might look like and so it’s a
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completely honest conversation if it’s
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working well and all that’s happening in
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the conversation is that the two people
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involved
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are trying to make things better that’s
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the goal let’s see if we can have a
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conversation that will make things
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better okay so we know that works it
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does make things better and then another
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thing we know is that well let’s say
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there’s a bunch of things that you’re
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afraid of that are in your way so you
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have some vision about who you want to
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be maybe you have to you know you want
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to be successful in your career so you
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have to learn to talk in front of a
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group it’s like okay well you’re afraid
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of that no wonder you don’t want to be
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humiliated so okay so what do we do
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because sometimes you know you’re just
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hopeful I would like a good thing to
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happen it’s like yeah but you know I’d
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like to drink half a bottle of whiskey
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tonight – it’s like so which is it gonna
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be well just being hopeful about the
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future might not be enough but then you
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think oh I see like there’s that little
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hell thing that I outlined it’s waiting
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for me and maybe I’m afraid of taking
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the nips next step forward because it’s
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demanding and challenging it’s like yeah
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I’m afraid of that but I’m way more
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afraid of where I might end up if I
don’t get my act together and people
should be that’s why their conceptions
of hell in so many religions it’s like
hell is a real place whether it’s
eternal that’s a whole different
question whether it’s waiting for you in
the afterlife that’s a whole different
question but if you’ve never met anyone
in Hell you haven’t lived very long you
haven’t had your eyes open yeah it’s
undeniable that feeling of total
complete misery and deniable yeah
especially when it’s compounded by the
fact that you know you did it to
yourself
that’s the real fun that’s the real fun
part it’s like I’m having a bitch of a
time and I richly deserve it
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that’s that I have a chapter in there on
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raising kids it says don’t like your
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kids don’t let your kids do anything it
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makes you just like them it’s like well
that’s first predicated on the
observation that you’re quite a monster
and it would be better for your kids if
they didn’t get on your bad side and
like again because I’m a clinical
psychologist a monster why why do you
use that term because I’ve watched
families like I’ve seen families where
it’s as if every single person in the
family has their hands around the neck
of the family member that’s close to
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them and they’re squeezing but only
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tight enough to strangle them in 20
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years but you’re not always using it as
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a pejorative you you you’ve also used it
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you should become a monster you should
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be a monster yeah but that’s that’s you
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shouldn’t be it it shouldn’t be
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accidental that’s the thing what
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so what do you mean by monster then in a
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positive sense like you feel a monster
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oh that’s easy among a positive monster
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is somebody who says no and means it
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because when you say no what you mean is
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there isn’t anything you can do to me
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that will make me agree to do this why
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is that a monster because you have to be
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because no one will take you seriously
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otherwise no one will take you seriously
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like no means if you keep pushing this
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something that you do not like will
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happen to you that’s what no means you
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don’t have any strength of character
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unless you can put up a fight you know
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and to be able to say no to something is
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to be able to put up a fight so and you
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can’t do that if you’re if you can be
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pushed around you’ll just get argued
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into submission or you’ll feel guilty
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because you’re causing conflict or
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something like that but isn’t there
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confusion using those terms as a
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positivism and a negative maybe there’s
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another word instead of monster well
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there is there is the potential there is
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the potential for confusion you say well
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is that something that can be I think
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monster is a horrible thing I don’t
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think of it as being like a wall like
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someone who is just rock-solid in their
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belief system and rock-solid and their
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understanding when you fight someone
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who’s formidable say what do you think
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of the person that you’re fighting like
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how would you characterize them they may
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have a monstrous side because they can
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think they can they can bring physical
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substantial physical force to bear on
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the situation and and be willing to do
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it so they’re not naive and and harmless
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by any stretch of the imagination right
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they have a well-developed capacity for
mayhem they think well is that monstrous
it’s like well I would say yes I would
say fierce fierce fine let’s go with
that yeah because someone who’s fierce
and formidable it’s not necessarily a
monster you know just I think of a
monster as being just an awful person
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who’s done awful things and just you
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know okay well so fair enough well so
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back to the back to this situation with
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your kids while you definitely don’t
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want to have your kids act in a way that
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awakens your inner monster right let’s
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put it that way and so you need to you
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need to organize your family with a
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certain amount of discipline and a
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certain amount of structure so that you
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get to do what you want which is back to
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that
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to the point that you made earlier so
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that you’re happy to have your kids
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around so that you won’t take revenge on
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them and so you want to lay your life
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out so that well so that it’s providing
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you what you need to not be bitter and
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to work for your best interests and for
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the interests of everyone else that
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would be lovely and I think it’s
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attainable you know because the book is
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very dark and and I’m a very dark guy in
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some ways because I’ve looked at the
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terrible things that people do to one
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another that’s the fascinating way of
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looking at you think you yourself as
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dark as I don’t think of you as dark oh
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that’s good
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the more relevant thing is that I’ve
been studying these old stories these
archetypal stories for a very long
period of time and they have power they
really have power and they manifest
themselves everywhere they manifest
themselves in movies and in books and I
mean Harry Potter’s a mythological story
and it made Roland richer than the Queen
of England you know these stories have
power and I was fortunate enough to
study a large number of people large
number of scholars who knew what that
power was Carl Jung in particular and I
could make it more accessible to people
and so that’s a big part of it but what
overall significance of that is well I
just it just leaves me speechless I mean
there’s Kathy Newman things a good
example and I mean so many things have
happened I’ve got involved I’ve been in
a scandal of some sort a serious scandal
of some sort probably every three weeks
for a year and a half you know and there
are things that are just well the did
James tomorrow thing is a good example
of that like that’s a big deal you know
that that explosion that that that
emerged around him in the court case
that’s coming out of it it’s a big deal
and this thing with Lindsay Shepard that
was the worst scandal that
hit a Canadian University and then there
was all the protests and and then there
was what happened with with channel 4
the UK and it’s like I don’t know what
to make of it
I don’t what what I’m trying to do is
have a good conversation when I come and
talk to somebody like you where we can
have a good conversation try not to say
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anything stupid that’s really what I’m
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trying to do is to not say anything
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stupid that’s hard or too stupid yeah
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yeah well didn’t it’s being high stakes
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poker yeah you know for it’s not quite
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so bad now because especially after what
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happened with channel 4 and some
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journalists like people have been trying
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to take me out for quite a long time and
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it’s not it isn’t working so far
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actually you actually believe what
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you’re saying and it actually makes
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sense well you know that’s that’s it’s
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not a bad start but it’s rare in this
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world this is a especially in these
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ideologically charged times yeah this
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toxic tribalism that we keep bringing up
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it’s well and I also decided like a long
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time ago and and I I think this runs
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through 12 rules for life is well I
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believe that people’s decisions tilt the
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world towards heaven or hell I think
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there’s no more accurate way of
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describing the consequences of each of
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your decisions than that you face
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potential that’s what you face that’s
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what you face in the world is potential
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it’s not Material reality it’s potential
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and every decision you make you’re
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deciding whether you want to make the
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world better or worse and if you like
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the ultimate better is heaven and the
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ultimate worse is hell we know how to
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make the world into hell we’ve done that
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multiple times much of the 20th century
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was that it’s like I looked it all out
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and I thought okay I would rather that
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the world didn’t degenerate into hell
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and I understand why people wanted to
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degenerate into hell they’re angry
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they’re angry because they suffer they
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suffer unfairly and they suffer because
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people hurt them and so they think this
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is a bad game I’m not going to help make
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it better I’m angry I’m gonna make it
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worse even that’s what the call of mine
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kids did you know that’s what all the
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mass shooters do they say to hell with
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this I hate it
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they’re so far behind the game they just
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want to flip the table yeah yeah worse
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than that they they want it
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obliterate the game yes and they want to
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do it with as much malice as possible
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just to obtain revenge and I understand
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that but I decided a long time ago that
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I would rather not play that game I
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think it I think that it’s possible that
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we could make the world better I really
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believe they leave that too so I think
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well the so I’m I’m trying to tell
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people look there’s more to you than you
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think there’s more potential there’s
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more than enough potential to go around
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there’s definite suffering and
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malevolence in the world we could fix it
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you haven’t got anything better to do
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that’s a very big point that there’s
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more potential to go around talking
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about more than people understand we’re
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not gonna run now to put that no we’re
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not and with this idea of the famine
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thinking is one of the reasons why
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people get upset at other people’s
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success they think somehow another this
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other person’s success takes something
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away from them yep yeah well there’s and
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it’s see the other thing too is that
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I’ve realized that people actually act
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like what they confront in the world is
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potential it’s so funny because whatever
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potential is it’s it’s not materially
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measurable but if you tell someone
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you’re not living up to your potential
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they go it’s like well what is that
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potential that you’re not living up to
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and then when you say well there’s
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potential in front of you you know that
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you can walk out on the street and you
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go right or left or straight ahead like
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you’re facing this thing that isn’t
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fully formed and you get to decide how
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it’s going to form and you can make it
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better and so my question is like the
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world’s a rough place there’s no doubt
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about it it’s a harsh place but my
question is what would happen if we
start making it worse how good could it
be if we stop making it worse and I
don’t know if there’s an upper limit to
that like it might be maybe we could
make it really really really good why
not and we don’t have any better to do
than that
it’s like aim at heaven start at home
aim at heaven tell the truth let’s see
what the hell happens you know like it
is the case clearly on the facts of the
matter in 20 years there wouldn’t have
to be a single person in the world that
was hungry in 20 years we could get rid
of the 5 biggest diseases that currently
plague the planet we could straighten
things up and god only knows what things
could be like that or we could let the
whole thing DJ
right into hell so in each of us is
making that decision with each decision
that’s the other thing that I’ve
understood so take your choice you want
hell are you want heaven if you pick
hell just remember you knew what you
were doing when you picked it but nobody
picks hell yeah just sort of let it
slide yeah but they do it because they
blind themselves you know you know when
you do it you say oh yeah well you know
I let that slide then you and then you
don’t think about it it’s like you could
think about it you could think about it
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you could know but you don’t let
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yourself know is any of this all the
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pressure and the scandal every three
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weeks is this this is it way on you is
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it is it difficult how are you feeling
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like when we’re not feeling strange
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thing
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yeah it’s like it’s like simultaneously
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the worst possible thing and the best
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possible thing that could happen well
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financially it’s been a boom right yes
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it’s which I mean the thing that I’ve I
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shouldn’t say this but I’m going to
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because it’s just so goddamn funny I
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can’t help but say that I figured out
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how to monetize social justice warriors
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[Laughter]