A Reckoning for Western Liberalism

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uh the the thesis of the book we were
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asking
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why is it that democratization produced
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a politics of grievance and resistance
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and resentment and one the simplest
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answer
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is that uh democratization was imitation
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and imitation
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uh uh is associated with the confession
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that the other is superior you’re
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inferior
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and of course that produces resentment
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but more
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particularly if i could give you just
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one i think uh
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very revealing example
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of how this uh how this developed let’s
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take hungary as an example
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the hungarians took standard model
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thatcherite
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privatization which uh uh developed in
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the west
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they tried they applied it in a society
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with no private capital
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the consequence of this was in a way we
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should have seen it ahead of time
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was that managers took the assets of
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their enterprises
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and uh used that to buy the enterprises
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for themselves
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creating their own private wealth and uh
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this was the beginning of the
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development of an appalling inequalities
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in these uh in east european societies
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post-communist societies unjustifiable
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inequalities which were resented but not
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only that
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the the language of liberalism which is
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the language of human rights individual
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rights
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was not able to capture or to articulate
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the grievance uh experienced by those
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who watched the public patrimony of
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their country
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put into the pockets of individuals who
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were insiders
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so the privatization of polypatrimony
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was a uh was was experienced as an abuse
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as a
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as a as a crime but it couldn’t be
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articulated in the language
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of individual rights of liberalism and
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indeed
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the language of liberalism particularly
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the language of private property rights
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be uh beca banned blessed or justified
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this process which was widely viewed as
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illegitimate and unjustifiable and and
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of course
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personally painful if you are your best
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friend
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you have two friends uh uh they’re very
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equal one day
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in a couple years one of them is riding
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around in limousines
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the other can’t afford a bus ticket one
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is eating at fish restaurants every
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night the other
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can’t afford a piece of fresh fruit that
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produces resentment so the
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the the westernization process created
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traumas in these societies which we
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didn’t foresee and didn’t predict
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but that was the seedbed for this
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populist revolt against the liberal
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order
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now for those of us who grew up during
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the cold war this is going to sound
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passing strange but there are many on
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the right
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in eastern and central europe that
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consider the european union to be the
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new
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soviet union how can that be
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yeah this is a very strange development
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interesting and kind of
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complicated so the first thing is that
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reform elites
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in eastern europe were very eager to uh
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to join in the accession process to the
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european union
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and therefore accepted the post-national
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rhetoric
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of the european union that if you
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remember was really developed to help
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germany
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overcome its nationalistic past so it
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was a very post-national language
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and that um meant that this these reform
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elites
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were leaving behind in their own country
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national symbols
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national traditions they kind of didn’t
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speak about them
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and therefore when resentment uh or when
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when the west entered into crisis
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particularly in 2008
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and the western model seemed to be less
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than it was cracked up to be
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and to present problems um a counter
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elite emerged
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in eastern europe in central eastern
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europe mostly of provincial origins
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who blamed everything that went wrong
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on the fact that they the reform elite
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had abandoned the nation
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had abandoned national traditions so
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this was a uh
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the the accession process was a viewed
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as a
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betrayal of national authenticity
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uh in in addition there’s another very
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interesting factor which is that the
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european union was
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asking all in and hungary become
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democratic
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you must learn how to become democracies
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like we in the west
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at the same time brussels was saying we
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are going to write all of your laws
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so while you’re becoming democratic
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actually your laws are going to be
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written in brussels
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this produced also resentment and a
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feeling that there is something
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uh perverse or uh arrogant about
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brussels obviously brussels is not
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moscow it doesn’t have a boot
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on their throats but it did it does did
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convey
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a sense of uh superiority judgmentalism
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and then i i need to uh emphasize that
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although
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the west did not impose democracy and
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liberalization
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it did judge the progress of
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democratization and liberalization
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and in a way westerners when they
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visited eastern europe i saw this a lot
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i worked there of course in the 90s
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uh it was as if it’s in the way tourists
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visit a zoo you know
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you go to the zoo you look at the
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primates you say well
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uh they’re like us but they’re lit
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missing something they don’t have an
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opposable thumb
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or they don’t have the rule of law so
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you’re kind of saying you’re you’re kind
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of a copy of us but you’re not a very
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good copy
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and probably you’ll never be much good
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so there was a feeling of
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being looked down upon uh which also
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stirred resentment uh and let me just
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say one other thing about
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i think authenticity the sense these
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populists are claiming that they
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are those in touch with the authentic
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tradition which has been
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lost by westernization and
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democratization so
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in 1989 uh it’s clear that the
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nationalists were allied with the
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liberals in the revolt against moscow’s
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empire
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so in poland there was a lot of
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basically trying to get away from russia
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was a very important motivation now they
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didn’t
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speak the language of nationalism at the
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time probably because it was not a
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language welcome in brussels
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but also because this was the period of
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milosevic you know the bloody side of
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nationalism and milosevic was a
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communist communist so a man like
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kaczynski would never
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echo milosevic so there was the language
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of nationalism was subdued
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and when after 2008 2014 the immigration
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crisis
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these populist knees near felt freed
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from having to
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to cover their nationalism with the
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language of liberalism so
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it it it had felt like a kind of cage
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in which they were trapped and they
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broke out of it
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and returned to this kind of nativist uh
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way of feeling which had always been
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there but had been muffled so it was
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that’s part of the why populism seems
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authentic to them
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well let’s extend your metaphor a little
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further if we want to talk about the
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number one primate in the zoo boy this
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is a terrible analogy
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uh should we ask about russia here why
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didn’t i i mean
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the the many of the central and eastern
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european countries did sort of flirt
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with
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liberal democracy for a while before
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adopting illiberal democracy that they
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have today but russia never did
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why why did russia never try it well i
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mean first of all you have to remember
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that in the soviet union
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elites have been have found it very easy
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to
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fake democracy have fake elections
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because they’ve been faking communism
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for at least two decades before
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uh they were sort of dressed up this way
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let’s pretend we’re having to
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have elections these are all rigged of
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course uh
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and uh we know he’s going to win and
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there’s not really any competition
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that was very easy for them to do they
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also in russia by the way
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they they had a communist training told
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them that democracy is just
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a trick by which elites uh deceive their
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publics
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and hold on to power capitalism is just
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really an elite project to
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exploit the working classes and so on so
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they were
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very comfortable with that idea of
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capitalist democracy
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but in the end basically uh russia
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was so injured i mean the main thing to
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understand about the russian
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situation is they lost huge part of
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their territory
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uh a huge number of their population
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they lost their superpower status it was
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a
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it was a huge injury to the self-image
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of russians which was not true in
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eastern europe that they didn’t
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eastern europeans didn’t have this
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imperial swagger this imperial
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claims that they were you know on the
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top of the world
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uh and actually exporting their own
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model
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elsewhere so that was a very strong and
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i think the so the russians for
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a couple decades were pretty happy with
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just faking democracy and
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but in the end as putin came to power
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the resentment of being treated as
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second-class
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citizens as being looked down upon as
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being taught lessons
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by the west boiled over and uh the
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russians
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went from this like faking a democracy
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to a what we call aggressive imitation
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uh that is
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imitation of the west which is designed
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to humiliate the west
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uh which is designed to show that the
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west is hypocritical so for example
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in the speech he gave putin gave
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justifying the annexation of
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crimea he basically imitated word for
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word
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uh western speeches about the
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independence of kosovo
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human rights national self-determination
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and so forth but this was
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very much a kind of imitation meant to
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expose the west’s
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hypocrisy and uh yes i think that’s
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i think that’s a good uh way to
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understand the putin regime which is not
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people often uh act as if putin is a
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great strategist and it is true that
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he’s played
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beforehand well but he’s not a great
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strategist his
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his main aim which is not strategic and
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is not
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helping russia redevelop itself is to
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expose the west as hypocritical that’s
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his
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obsession uh and i think that’s a
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blind alley that’s a dead end maybe a
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blind alley but most days of the week
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it’s not that hard to do
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whoops there’s my little editorial
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comment uh let me try this
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do we have to come to the unhappy
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conclusion therefore
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that liberalism as we understand it is
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really not exportable
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to cultures that are if i can put it
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this way wired differently
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from those of us in the west i think
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one of the big lessons of the 2003 war
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in iraq
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is that uh trying to impose a
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democratic system after a six-week
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military campaign
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in a country where three-quarters of the
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population married their first cousin
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and so
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it’s a completely different social world
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you can’t just you know uh
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impose something like this and that that
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was such a lesson even though
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our uh uh international internationalist
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humanitarian internationals uh went over
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there
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with the uh crude and i think uh
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defenseless uh idea that the only
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legitimate authority with whom we are
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going to deal are going to be authority
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that’s elected
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i think it’s very good to help so the
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listeners to contrast what
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how we behaved in afghanistan and how
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the americans behaved in afghanistan and
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how they behaved
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in iraq and afghanistan we had been
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there for decades we
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knew all the warlords we didn’t say to
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the warlords you must be elected
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before we negotiate with you but in iraq
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the religious leaders the tribal shakes
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were set aside we had this
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fake ideological belief that we have to
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create authority by elections which of
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course is a
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is a uh it is based on historical
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ignorance
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democracy is a tiny spot in human
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history
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it has cute enormously complicated
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preconditions
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it doesn’t we we’re confusing the
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absence of obstacles with the presence
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of preconditions we thought if you get
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rid of saddam
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you’re going to have democracy just like
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if you get rid of communist elite you’re
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going to have democracy
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and this was an illusion it’s a
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democratic ideology that
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idea was uh is is is it
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uh uh ex exposes a kind of disgraceful
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historical ignorance which was uh at the
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basis of much of american foreign policy
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in the post-cold war era we’ve got about
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five minutes to go here so let me try a
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couple more questions with you
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your book now suggests that we’ve
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entered an age of illiberal
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imitation how do you see that
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well it’s a strange uh fact that uh
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president trump seems to be uh uh
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accepting putin’s uh a strategic goal of
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dismantling the european union
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of destroying all of the international
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organizations created by the united
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states after world war
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ii uh and he’s at war not only with the
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wto the who in
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all the world america made seems to be
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uh uh
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the liberal world order seems to be
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something that trump himself
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is uh attacking so that is a a kind of
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imitation of and he’s using the rhetoric
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nationalist rhetoric anti-immigrant
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rhetoric
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of orban and kaczynski uh and the
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anti-western
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uh language and also by the way
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uh he’s the first american president who
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has not said we deserve to rule the
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world because we’re morally superior
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i mean that’s a kind of not a very
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likable uh uh position to take but every
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american president has taken that
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basically
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trump says no no we’re just like
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everyone else uh
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well what i was personally don’t you
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think
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is that again be a tough case for him
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personally to make it
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imitate him personally yes i would say
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but he of course
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his basic uh thing is he resents
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this is sort of the trump world view is
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he resents terribly
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the countries that imitate our uh
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economic productivity
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or or are horning in on our market share
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and so on so
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he’s a person who has claimed i think
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the first american president ever
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to say that america is the greatest
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victim of the americanization
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of the world so that’s part of it but i
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wouldn’t like uh to say a word about
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uh the current crisis we’re in and i’m
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i’ve been asking myself and my colleague
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yvonne krustev
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we’ve been speaking about this as well
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what does the was the current pandemic
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tell us about the trauma of liberalism
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and the the competition between
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liberalism and populism
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uh because in a way uh the
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the previous crises of liberalism 19
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uh the uh 2001 in which it turned out
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that
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defending human rights the whole uh idea
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of defending human rights as the primary
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value
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seemed to give way to the battle against
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terrorism in which rights were viewed as
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a trojan horse for our enemies
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2008 which really showed that our
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economic elite
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i didn’t know what it was doing so that
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also uh really hurt our prestige to uh
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2014
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in which the migrant crisis uh made
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people feel like open borders
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were a threat to western civilization
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and so on all these things have
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combined and and we’re under a
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uh we’re living in a time where those
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three crises have seemed to be
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accumulating in the present one
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and weakening the liberal commitment to
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globalization and so forth
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openness uh at the same time
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every political order has its own
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disorders and populism
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is producing its own discontents and
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these populist leaders
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bolsonaro trump authoritarians like
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putin
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strangely enough they are very afraid of
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this crisis
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they are not you know taking hold of it
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and using it
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to uh to uh uh to their benefit
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uh there’s a way in which this kind of
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crisis has
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uh had is is challenging any kind of
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regime
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the archaeon regimes we saw that in
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china where they’re hiding evidence
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we see it in the west some some
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democratic societies have done well some
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authoritarian societies have done okay
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it doesn’t seem to fit well into our
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ideological
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uh polarities so i think that’s and the
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way i would put this in the end the
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question open to us
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is now in the future is is the pandemic
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going to
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increase our reliance on science and
24:49
rationality
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belief in fact consciousness or is it
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going to
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uh create a uh is the panic
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of and fear going to lead to more
25:00
conspiracy theories
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uh and more xenophobia uh uh
25:04
migrant bashing uh so we’re on a knife’s
25:08
edge
25:08
i think and the the fate of the liberal
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model and the liberal commitment to
25:13
rational decision making
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uh and uh the uh uh
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and its competition with these populist
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myth makers
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sloganeers who are always trying to sell
25:24
something has not been decided
25:26
i definitely do not think the populists
25:29
have the upper hand
25:30
i think the populists are also
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struggling and they’re
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not finding this an easy crisis to deal
25:36
with
25:36
so although i don’t believe that the
25:39
west is covering itself with glory
25:41
either
25:42
uh the whale and liberal regimes are
25:44
also struggling because
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uh the the disease is hard to understand
25:49
and it’s hard to master
25:50
i i definitely don’t believe that uh the
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current crisis is going to
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really decide the question in favor of
26:00
of the populists well why don’t i
26:02
freelance then and just uh re-title your
26:05
book the light that’s failed
26:07
so far and we’ll leave it there uh
26:10
i want to thank you very much professor
26:11
holmes for joining us on tvo tonight
26:13
congratulations again on your gelber
26:15
prize
26:15
uh for anybody who wants to pick it up
26:17
yvonne krastieff and stephen holmes
26:18
collaborated on the light
26:20
that failed are reckoning take good care
26:22
and thanks for joining us on tvo tonight
26:25
thank you steve
26:30
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