What explains elite contempt for Joe Rogan? – System Update with Glenn Greenwald

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very soon thereafter she converted
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into a real enemy she emerged two months
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later and wrote this
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article aggressively condemning the idea
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that trans women should be able to
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compete in female athletic and female
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athletics because it the the the kind of
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intolerance for her even asking
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converted her it alienated her converted
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her into an enemy and
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it seems like people who don’t care
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about outcomes are about winning
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really don’t get bothered by that but
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let me just ask you about one
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the kind of the last um
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kind of prong of the case of the liberal
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case against joe rogan i find this one
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really interesting
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too which is you know people say
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okay fine he he liked bernie like tulsi
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um and yet i believe in 2016 if i’m not
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mistaken
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he said that he was voting for trump
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over hillary
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and i’m certain that after saying that
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he
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thought bernie was the best candidate
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and really like tulsi
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he’s now saying i can’t vote for biden i
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probably would vote for trump over biden
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which would is leading ripples to say to
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people like you
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why would we possibly why should we
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possibly regard somebody
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as an ally who is
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saying twice now that they’re going to
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vote for donald trump and i guess like
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an
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ancillary part of that question is you
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know there is this phenomenon of people
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who twice voted
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for barack obama and then voted for
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donald trump in 2016
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not a small number a large number and
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here in brazil
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same thing you know a lot of people who
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voted for bolsonaro in 2018
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were people who voted for the workers
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party four consecutive
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elections so if you’re kind of a
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political junkie who relies on the
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polarization of choose between rachel
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maddow and sean hanovey
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it doesn’t make any sense that somebody
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could do that to say i like bernie
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but i’m gonna vote for trump because you
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have to pick an ideological box
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and joe rogan clearly is a person
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who doesn’t think that way and i think
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there’s like this liberal sense that
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that makes him bizarre when in fact
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i think it makes him pretty common it’s
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one of the reasons why people like him
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because he’s not in one of those boxes
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but what do you say to liberals who
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would make that argument that how can we
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consider somebody supporting
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this authoritarian racist for president
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to be an ally
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well i mean there are two things that
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you you have to kind of
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kind of set the record straight on first
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is that i i’m pretty sure in 2016 he
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voted for gary johnson so he voted for a
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libertarian i don’t think he voted for
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trump in 2016.
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um and in 2020 again he first you know
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supported tulsi
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then he supported bernie um and then
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most recently if you really
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look at his comments it’s not that he’s
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saying he’s endorsing trump but he’s
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saying that
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he would he would vote for trump um
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as a result of the party choosing biden
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because he just doesn’t think biden can
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do the job
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just from a kind of mental age
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decline standpoint so it’s not like the
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most heartfelt support of trump but yeah
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i mean
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let’s set that aside and just say okay
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like he’s willing to vote for trump
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right
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um i mean the idea that you wouldn’t
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want to engage
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someone who is willing to go from the
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most
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liberal the most left candidate in the
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democratic primary and willing to then
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switch over to trump
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i mean you know it’s the argument that
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the left’s been making
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for you know for years now right that
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like
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these this is the is the guy to be
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studying right he’s the one that we can
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kind of crack the code on
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um as for you know why that’s the case
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i think it’s real again it’s really
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threatening i don’t think
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you know i think the democratic
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establishment what i tend to tell people
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is that the democratic establishment
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their main priority is not really to
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actually even win elections
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it’s to keep control of the democratic
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party right like that’s where most of
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their power comes from it’s certainly
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where
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their most reliable source of power
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comes from it’s keeping control of the
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party because as long as you can
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keep control of the party and you keep
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control of the cultural
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um levers of power in the country
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you’re always going to be able to
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command 50
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of the political system you’re always
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going to be able to command
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um you know the entire media apparatus
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that’s devoted to politics right you’re
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good
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or at least half of it right you’re
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going to in control the liberal half
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and so i think it’s i i mean i it’s
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i’m sorry to say but i think it’s a
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really cynical calculation
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that cultural elites and democratic
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party elites are making when they make
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these decisions because when when you
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engage joe rogan
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and you engage his viewers you’re being
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bringing in
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a ton of people who you can’t
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necessarily rely on to keep these clean
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lines of political and cultural
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engagement you’re
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you’re completely blowing up the
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political system you’re you’re blowing
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up the racket
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right and why would you want to do that
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because at the end of the day
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hell trump could get reelected and
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they’d still control the party they can
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still control the other half they’d be
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raising hundreds of millions of dollars
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for their think tanks and therefore you
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know the media institutions and so
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it’s a great racket why would you risk
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that just for
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winning you know the presidency for
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maybe four years eight years
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don’t get me wrong obviously they’d like
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to win that too
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but i don’t think that’s the real game i
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don’t think that’s ever been the real
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game
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we saw that in the uk right where the
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centrists and playwrights and moderates
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who controlled the labor party
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levers of power forever whether they
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were in power out of power
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when they lost control of their own
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party to jeremy corbyn
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they it was very obvious if you’re just
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paying minimal attention but we now know
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from documents that have been leaked and
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reports that have been issued
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they were actively working against the
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labor party they preferred
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to destroy corbyn and retake control
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of the party even if it meant empowering
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the tories and making boris johnson
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prime minister because as you say
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their top priority is ensuring that they
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maintain
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control of their party and secondary
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or even more distantly is actually
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winning elections
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um and you know i think that you know
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it’s like when people ask me why i go on
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tucker carlson i
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can barely even understand the question
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because it’s such an obvious answer
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which is
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because there are four million people
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watching and whatever percentage it is
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that i can reach in any way not
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necessarily change their minds instantly
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but just kind of make them a little more
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open
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to hearing from different people maybe
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get them kind of unsettled about
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who they should be paying attention to
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or introducing some ideas that maybe
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maybe it’s ten percent maybe it’s five
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percent maybe it’s fifteen percent
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why would i ignore that if i actually
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care about outcomes
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to watch you know i i it kind of shocked
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me edward snowden
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uh appeared on rogan’s show for the
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second time this week and so i went back
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to look at what the audience was the
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first time he appeared which is
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about 10 months ago and even though
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edward snowden being edward snowden kind
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of spoke in like a monologue form for
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about
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three hours you know and he was
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obviously remote because he couldn’t
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go to the studio since he’s trapped in
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russia the audience for that
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appearance from edward snowden just on
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youtube never mind all the other
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platforms
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was 15 million people 15 million
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um which is you know four or five times
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the size
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of a primetime cable host even on their
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best night
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and obviously by virtue the fact that
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you watch it that people
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listen to it and can hear him say i
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support tulsi or i support
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bernie obviously there’s huge numbers of
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those
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that audience that are very reachable
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from a liberal perspective
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anybody who says i don’t want to have
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anything to do
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with a show that reaches 15 million
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people
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is somebody to me who’s saying
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i look at politics as about everything
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other than
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winning wielding power and changing the
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world
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right right and they shrouded in moral
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language right they shrouded
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in how could you associate with someone
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like that how could you you’ll be
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tainted by someone like that
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um they shrouded in those things but at
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the end of the day it’s a much more
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cynical calculation it’s
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it’s put forth as some kind of moral
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decr
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declaration but it’s really a cynical
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calculation
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calculation in terms of controlling the
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party in terms of controlling cultural
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power centers
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why would we want to upset that this is
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a great setup
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um and yeah that’s why you see 15
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million people tuning in to edward
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snowden because it completely cult
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cuts across all of these cultural lines
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i mean there aren’t
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you know being interested in edward
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snowden just his story and what he did
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and the cultural and political impact he
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had
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that’s not a liberal or conservative
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idea that’s
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that’s reaching millions of people um
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but that’s just not interesting to
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um what informs the you know the the
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careers and the lifestyles of the people
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that
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sort of hold these both the political
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and cultural
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levers of power in the country yeah so
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yeah so thanks very much for
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for taking the time i i think is a
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really important topic not just
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because it’s important to understand the
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phenomenon of joe rogan although that
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is important there are very few people
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having the kind of cultural
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and political impact that he’s having
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um in a reaching a group of people who
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often tune out politics or who aren’t
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engaged in the traditional ways which
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makes him
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even more important than just the
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numbers alone but i do think too
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the reaction to him tells us a lot about
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how media figures view their position
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how liberals view what their political
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project uh is and so
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um i i think your your analysis on
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twitter and the discussion that we just
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had
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um has really clarified those issues in
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in a really helpful way so thank you so
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much for
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taking the time to talk to me um and i
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hope people will tune into your
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back channel youtube program where
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you’re doing a lot of these kind of
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header docs
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uh discussions with people across a wide
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range of
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ideological and cultural uh belief
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systems so