Joe Rogan Experience #1084 – Douglas Murray

Douglas Murray, author of “The Strange Death of Europe” which is out now, is an author, journalist, and political commentator. He is the founder of the Centre for Social Cohesion and is the associate director of the Henry Jackson Society and associate editor of The Spectator, a British magazine discussing culture and politics.

49:13
I was in discussion with a modern cleric
who’s a sort of reformist figure and
Meyer in some ways who in a discussion
about something said well you know also
Mohammed Prophet Muhammad peace be upon
him was was he took criticism in his
early he took criticism very very well
he never minded people criticizing him I
like that’s absolute crap that is real
crap I mean whatever else you say he
Muhammad not really good on this on the
criticism of himself
bit and I gave an example of a female
poet s who he had killed because she
criticized him
and this guy went
absolutely apeshit and refused to
continue and so on and because you gave
an actual because I gave historical
example from his own religious texts and
and in the end it was a pre-recording
day and the end the BBC were like it was
can you find another way of trying to
make the same point and you know and
that was what we had to do I mean I mean
another way of making the same point yet
rather than pointing out the historical
exact same that showed that Muhammad did
have a female poet killed yes you just
what other way would there be to make
that point that is hard but that’s the
ultimate way to make that
exactly which is by pointing to the
texts and the facts but you know I can
think of no other situation in which
somebody has veto rights like that yeah
in a normal discussion and it’s because
they were terrified of the retaliation
yes I mean I knew everyone in the
production box was like oh no what’s
Douglass done so how can we stop it
affecting us
what was his clerics response to that he
yeah he just he went yeah they’re a bit
nuts and wouldn’t continue unless I you
know wouldn’t say that
and so what did he deny that it was in
the tent oh yeah yeah I said I was
making it up and has a liar

I’m used to that but that that’s a crazy
thing for him to say when someone can
just read the text yeah but they have
they’re banking on nobody doing that
well no this day and age don’t bank on
that yeah this is this is one the
releasing things isn’t it because
although it’s true you can like suppress
a lot of this
you know we do live in an
age when basically anyone can google and
find texts
and they can destroy a time
did a billion people of read I’m not
sure they’ve read it but yeah well
possess it they don’t know how many
people you think read it how many really
think read the Bible like if you had a
like gasps there are number of
Christians in this country there are
those tests on that they’d sometimes to
the human society invaded a few years
ago asking very basic questions and self
professed Christians about their
knowledge of the texts and very few my
52:03
favorite is self professed Christians
52:05
with religious tattoos like hey man you
52:08
got to read the whole book like you are
52:12
literally showing on your skin right
52:15
that you didn’t read the whole book
52:16
didn’t pay attention don’t do that yeah
52:20
this is Leviticus is in Leviticus that’s
52:23
got the implications against writing
52:25
like you know if you read a little bitty
52:28
there’s a heck of a lot you can’t do if
52:29
you if you go down where are two pieces
52:32
of different cloth yes exactly
52:35
yeah Leviticus is a wonderful book it’s
52:37
going it’s very good for the mohair what
52:39
Leviticus wasn’t the one which was the
52:42
book where the guy called upon the
52:45
she-bear to kill
52:46
children who were mocking his baldness
52:49
do you know about that one my favorite
52:52
special on bald guy this guy was getting
52:56
mocked by children fucking kids and God
53:00
called upon a she-bear to come down and
53:04
tear apart these children who were
53:06
making fun of his bald head here uh-ohhh
53:09
lash and the two bear two kings yeah
53:13
look at that Wow
53:14
went up to pass if you were going to
53:17
intervene in human affairs for anything
53:18
this would be the time that’s got a step
53:20
in Jung kid young kids came out from the
53:27
city and mocked him and said to him go
53:29
up you bald head go up you bald head
53:32
which is very mild and when he looked
53:35
behind him and saw them he cursed them
53:38
in the name of the Lord all caps then
53:41
two female bears came out of the woods
53:43
and tore up 42 lads of their number and
53:47
he went from there to Mount Carmel it’s
53:49
like you know deal it’s over got it done
53:52
and that’s that’s yeah that’s my
53:55
favorite reading from Scripture was the
53:57
one at the end of one of the books that
53:59
come which one it was I was a chorus
54:01
when I was young I always made me laugh
54:03
there was a this did the destruction of
54:05
the city of Nineveh it really in it
54:07
finish is I think not any faces chapter
54:09
of the whole book it says you know and
54:10
and lo in that in that city were forty
54:14
thousand human souls that were destroyed
54:16
and had also some cattle cattle just by
54:22
disassociation some cattle bad cows
54:25
there are bad cows some of those cows
54:28
too but no the rather bald-headed one
54:31
that’s very that’s that’s a yeah that’s
54:34
a heck of a time to you know to tread
54:35
into human descent even an insult you
54:37
know all dead no your bald head is just
54:39
an accurate description the I mean that
54:41
is not an insult
54:42
if you like you ugly sloppy bald-headed
54:47
loser okay yeah then maybe God need to
54:49
step in and see some wolves to attack
54:51
you and vitamin D specify that they’re
54:55
female yeah yeah why is it female 32
54:58
number yeah 42 kids two bears for those
55:02
of subhead those are some bitch-ass kids
55:04
need to learn how to run that doesn’t
55:06
even make sense how the fuck those bears
55:07
even catch all 42 of those kids what
55:09
kind of kids are they raising over there
55:10
in Bethel they’re well they’re all
55:17
sitting around waiting their turn yeah I
55:18
mean trying out cuss words til one
55:21
causes the Bears to calm down you shaggy
55:26
bear that didn’t work you Shaggy’s mangy
55:29
dirty stinky bear head yeah there’s so
55:35
many of those stories that are so
55:36
strange but I’ve been I bet I bet that
55:38
that most if we were to go to the the
55:41
people who say that their questions in
55:43
the polls and ask him about we don’t
55:45
even need to go the baldhead bear right
55:47
I’ll catch them it is they don’t except
55:49
though most people don’t even bother
55:50
reading that cuz it’s just it’s almost
55:52
too crazy yeah but but but yeah the very
55:56
very little knowledge even about very
55:57
basic things you know even Commandments
56:02
and so on all right so that’s the case
56:04
with the religion that America and
56:06
Britain is known best with Christianity
56:08
so there’s no reason to assume that
56:09
that’s not the case with Islam as well
56:11
isn’t that just the case with people I
56:12
mean it seems to be the same thing that
56:13
we’re talking about with headlines
56:15
someone reads the headlines they don’t
56:16
bother reading into it and then they
56:17
accuse someone or something it’s almost
56:19
like with religion I’m a Christian and
56:21
I’m a Christian man oh really
56:22
please tell me about the Bible right
56:26
it’s um there’s something better I’ve
56:29
often thought this is one of the reasons
56:31
why there’s it’s possible to get a
56:33
certain fanaticism going within Muslim
56:35
communities on some issues to do with
mass for me is I think is to do with a
realization of this you said that this
was the case about our prophet I didn’t
know
there I he did what I had this all
my life with with arguing with Muslims
about things the they very rarely know
for the problems in their own tradition

and when you bring them up what he did
what like the Christians with the bald
ben and and this causes a really serious
problem for them because they are told
from the cradle that that they are
following a religion founded by the most
perfect man imaginable and if you
discover
that if you it’s like you know
no there’s no description of Helen of
Troy
in the ancient texts why does nobody
escribe Helen of Troy why didn’t nobody
say did you know she was a sort of this
beautiful blonde ringlets order it’s
because it actually catches on as a
theme because everyone makes Helen of
Troy their most beautiful woman if you
57:44
start to describe you me like I’m not
57:45
into redheads everyone would Helen of
57:51
Troy becomes a person upon you whom you
57:53
put all of those things and in the same
57:56
way Mohammed becomes if you say is the
57:58
perfect human being the people will just
58:00
throughout their lives put the kind of
58:01
things they think are perfect on to
58:03
Mohammed you must be very kind very
58:04
generous very caregiving and so on
58:06
so that if you then say well what about
58:09
when he then did this I think it just
58:12
causes an extra hurt this is something
58:15
they’ll have to get over of course
58:17
because I mean we can’t go away and not
58:20
rather identify these for these issues
58:22
but it causes in the short term an
58:25
enormous enormous pain I have a an
58:27
example I gave recently in a book of
58:29
them somebody I spent some time with
58:31
couple years ago an extraordinary man
58:33
called Morten storm he was a Danish
58:37
bikers a big in a biker gang and
58:40
in Denmark went to prison and in prison
58:43
about 2000 or so he converted not just
58:46
to Islam he converted to al-qaeda
58:48
basically he’s not a not a common person
58:50
in any way and he ended up being the
58:55
main go-to person for so our Lackey was
58:58
a head of al-qaeda in Yemen and in fact
59:01
was asked to give him up get a wife our
59:03
Lackey to supplement his wife collection
59:05
and a Morten storm a lot of things ended
59:09
up falling out with al Qaeda and ended
59:11
up working for the CIA and Danish
59:12
intelligence and ended up helping lead
59:14
them to our Lackey who was then droned
59:16
by Obama in 2011 or so anyhow I once
59:20
said to MotorStorm what was the moment
59:23
that made you get out of al-qaeda and he
59:27
has such a fascinating answer he because
59:28
he came out of al-qaeda and Islam at the
59:31
same moment he says what was happening
was he was sitting in his he was waiting
for a package when I’ll kind of drop off
to get then from him to our Lackey and
the the person carrying the package was
late and then really late and he was
sitting in his apartment somewhere in
Germany I think at that point and he was
so pissed off about this and he had a
laptop that was there on the table and
he thought basically how can i express
my pissed-off Ness with my al-qaeda
colleagues for wasting my time like this
so much and he went to Google and he
typed in contradictions in Islam and
began to read that was how he got out

Wow that’s what did him in some just
late he just started reading again they
told me this they never told me that I
never knew that
and that was so as I say
he’s a very very uncommon but but I
think that might be happening quite a
lot more than we know people just
googling things finding stuff out for
ourselves it’s the most dangerous
religion to leave because they kill
apostates they do yeah so what’s how is
he dealing with that well he lives in
hiding I mean wow
60:50
yeah yeah fancy may he read a book agent
60:54
storm two years ago one of the weirdest
60:59
conversation that I ever saw anybody
61:01
have with someone who was a believer was
61:04
Dawkins I think it was yeah was having a
61:08
conversation with someone in the asked
61:09
him point-blank whether or not he
61:10
believed that Mohammed split the moon oh
61:13
yes I think I know this was with a very
61:17
close enemy of mine called Mehdi Hassan
61:18
who worked for Al Jazeera and who
61:21
Richard Dawkins did a interview with and
61:23
I think he that’s why he fluffed
61:26
something earlier on Dork is he didn’t
61:29
take him on then he took him on on this
61:31
that’s wrong and I think that Sam said
61:34
yes yes yes and then it led to this
61:37
terrible problem which is a really
61:38
interesting interesting problem of our
61:40
era which is then dorking said I can’t
61:43
believe that somebody or said afterwards
61:44
I can’t believe that somebody could be a
61:45
working journalist and believe that you
61:47
know Mohammed Sloot a meal and a half
61:49
human horse right and of course I mean I
61:54
there’s a interesting point there yeah
61:57
but of course we do quite rightly allow
61:59
people to believe bizarre and insane
62:02
thing well sure exactly and if we
62:06
started saying you can’t have public
62:07
office of working journalism if you
62:08
profess to be of this particular faith
62:11
then we wouldn’t get any way we wouldn’t
62:12
have anyone left and how does the story
62:14
go Mohammed flew to the moon on a half
62:16
human horse yeah and split the moon with
62:18
a sword as I would yeah I counted they
62:20
could have then been attacked by female
62:23
bears but I can’t no I can’t
62:25
yes he it’s the night journey which is
62:28
central and how the moon get glued back
62:30
together again
62:31
is it back together it looks like it is
62:34
I haven’t looked close maybe I need to
62:37
pay more attention it’s just the the
62:41
fact that a per mile I believe this was
62:43
a few years ago let’s just say it was
62:45
2010 that this interview or that this
62:47
debate took place yes he was around then
62:50
eight years ago that someone would be
62:52
comfortable saying oh that they believe
62:55
that oh you see I got into a little
62:56
trouble Richard Dawkins got a bit
62:58
annoyed about me because I took the
63:01
mickey out of him for dodging the one
63:02
earlier in that what was the earlier one
63:04
he a great admirer of it as everyone is
63:09
sure but he he knows exactly where the
63:14
cliff edge is hmm and in that interview
63:17
he he was asked on al-jazeera by this
63:21
interviewer he read out the bit from The
63:25
God Delusion about you know as a great
63:27
bit of rhetoric about the most the God
63:30
who smokes God is something like the
63:31
most appalling narcissistic murderous
63:34
blob of our character in all of fiction
63:36
is a terrific piece of writing and the
63:39
interviewer says the Dawkins do you do
63:42
you stand by that as a description of
63:44
the Christian God Dawkins says yes this
63:46
is you stand by it does the description
63:48
of the Jewish God says yes and then he
63:49
says and would you say the same thing
63:50
about the Muslim God and I just knew
63:54
exactly what’s happening at Richard
63:55
Dawkins says um about the Muslim God I
63:58
didn’t know so much which he as I say he
64:02
thinks I shouldn’t rip him on this and
64:05
the thing was what I noticed was just I
64:07
just I know I completely felt he’s been
64:09
a very brave and brilliant writer and
64:12
thinker on these matters and nobody’s
64:13
done more in some ways but he I knew
64:17
exactly what was happening he was
64:19
staring right over the cliff edge and
64:20
somebody was behind him nudging yeah and
64:24
that if he had have said as it were live
64:27
on al Jazeera oh yes
64:29
Allah you know the total bastard then I
64:34
don’t know maybe yes maybe you’re then
64:38
in real trouble you know and so he
64:41
stepped back from the brink there and I
64:42
rather crudely perhaps took the mickey
64:44
out of him afters for it I said that it
64:46
was just that Richard Dawkins was
64:48
demonstrating a survival instinct of his
64:50
species but I I feel bad about it but it
64:54
is true it is true but we’ve all been
64:56
there to some extent and what was his
64:58
response to that though to my general
65:02
criticism he well he basically I think
65:07
he did take it on board in a way
65:10
so complex reasons but I know I know he
65:15
was also annoyed that I was where I
65:16
think he felt that I was doing that to
65:18
him then you do it right right and that
65:23
is very common in that I’ve had that a
65:25
lot in my life of in this particular
65:28
area of people trying to egg me over why
65:31
don’t you say that
65:32
mmm of course and and you know that
65:36
they’re the people who’ll be a million
65:38
miles behind me oh yeah they would their
65:40
ears plugged yeah I behind a wall I was
65:43
a very I was a very very visual aid of
65:45
it somebody who etches is a terrific
65:47
reformer in Islam that now and another
65:51
cleric who once described me he went to
65:53
fight for the Mujahideen in Afghanistan
65:54
and you know 30 years ago now and
65:57
described to me he’s not very fighting
65:59
li-like person but described how he did
66:01
actually sort of really rile them up to
66:02
sort of run over and get at the Soviets
66:04
and he’s like you know we’re all agreed
66:06
yes we’ll go yes and I go and he guys
66:13
guys and everyone else stayed in the
66:15
trench and I’ve always thought this is
66:17
exactly the experience of anyone in this
66:21
area what grabbed eyes is that there’s
66:23
inherent danger and this criticism even
66:25
that’s the discussion right now I’m sure
66:27
that people right now firing up their
66:29
webcams and writing blogs and tweeting
66:32
and getting upset about it yeah it’s any
66:35
rational discussion of that particular
66:37
subject you could kind of get away I
66:40
mean I get criticism from Christians but
66:44
it’s not scary right yes that is um
66:48
that’s that is a big difference of the
66:50
timing isn’t it right this is this is
66:52
something it’s just so important about
66:54
the new ones that almost never gets
66:56
added in but of course we all just
66:57
assumed it so we don’t think it’s worth
66:59
saying but we are aware that any
67:00
religion or thought like this could be
67:03
this dangerous at different phases yes
67:06
you know we might under wanted to be in
67:09
Spain in certain points in the last
67:12
millennium sure we might not have wanted
67:16
to be a Catholic descent to at certain
67:17
points or Protestant dissenters others
67:19
and so on and so forth we all know that
67:20
yes it’s just that at the moment that’s
67:23
pretty question
67:24
and and quiet and of course it’s less
67:27
quiet here than it is in my country one
67:30
can’t imagine the Anglican Church
67:31
becoming militant about anything at any
67:33
point soon you do have some angrier
67:37
types of Christian here than we have in
67:38
my country so it’s easy for me to think
67:40
they’re slightly less risky at some
67:44
point in the future than than you might
67:46
but but it’s just that we do recognize
67:48
this could happen elsewhere as well it’s
67:50
just at the moment it’s it’s it’s not
67:51
the Quakers they they really don’t send
67:57
me a death threat from one year to the
67:58
next right rather nice people there’s an
68:02
inherent danger of a retaliation from
68:06
people who are more radical Christian
68:10
that if this continues and if you see it
68:13
more and more of more and more attacks
68:16
from people of Muslim faith yes you
68:18
could possibly see a retaliation from
68:21
people especially in this country like
68:23
after 9/11 there was an extreme amount
68:26
of hate for Muslims and irrational hate
68:30
mostly which nothing directed at Sikhs
68:33
yes well there was a lot of that out of
68:35
ignorance they just didn’t they didn’t I
68:37
mean that was the most disturbing
68:39
because Sikhs are pretty interesting
68:41
people and the fact that they just
68:45
instantaneously with no information at
68:48
all no understanding out of complete
68:50
ignorance yeah attack them I I have a I
68:54
second no one in my gloominess about
68:56
some of the things that we’re going to
68:57
go through in Britain and Europe and
68:58
their coming years but I recently had a
69:02
reason to even more gloomy about one
69:04
aspect of it relating to this which is
69:05
this we had three big bad terrorist
69:10
attacks last year in the UK including
69:13
the Manchester Arena bomb 22 young
69:15
people were blown up on a Monday night
69:17
for going to hear ariana grande and
69:22
after the third of those attacks which
69:25
was on London Bridge went three people
69:28
who actually known the authorities as
69:30
they generally are slashed people’s
69:33
throats on the street and ran to borough
69:35
market as people were drinking and
69:36
stabbed people while shouting this is
69:39
for Allah after the third of those
69:41
attacks it was a fella is this really
69:45
just gonna keep happening what are we
69:48
gonna do about it and what can we do and
69:50
after the Manchester one in particular
69:51
there was this kind of thing of everyone
69:54
saying apart John Lennon’s Imagine there
69:56
was this hit don’t Lee don’t look back
69:58
in anger and these themes that say we
70:01
weren’t meant to think anything other
70:02
than that we weren’t meant to be angry
70:03
enemy and then then just terrible thing
70:09
happened from another direction
70:12
outside Finsbury Park mosque which the
70:15
muscular very troubled and bad history
70:18
in London a guy from Wales in a van
70:22
drives into the crowds as they’re
70:25
milling around outside the mosque kills
70:28
one man and injures a number of others
70:32
that guy by the way just show how
70:34
complex all this can get is he was tried
70:38
and guilty last month in the courts in
70:41
the UK he he had been his office he very
70:45
mentally deranged and had a history of
70:47
mental illness and all that sort of
70:48
thing as very often people do in these
70:50
situations but he he had watched the BBC
70:54
drama called three girls which is the
70:56
first time the BBC had really addressed
70:59
the issue of the Rotherham
71:01
Rochdale rape gangs that happened in the
71:04
last decade in the UK which is still a
71:05
saw that’s going on where about 1,500
71:07
girls in one town alone were basically
71:10
abused by gangs of Muslim mainly
71:15
Pakistani men and it’s a very very ugly
71:18
business partly because it was so awful
71:21
that nobody there that nobody at the
71:22
State at the police level and the arts
71:24
wanted to look into it and they are now
71:26
in the governing choir so they they
71:28
didn’t be looking to excel worried about
71:30
being called racist and there’s a Lama
71:31
phobic and so on the press did a lot of
71:33
not being interested in this as well
71:35
eventually after all these years the BBC
71:38
makes a documentary called three girls
71:40
about three of the girls who suffered
71:42
from these rape gangs and then a man in
71:45
Wales sees it and gets so enraged people
71:48
say at the local pub he was railing
71:49
against the bloody
71:50
limbs and all this sort of thing and
71:51
then he hires a van and drives in to
71:53
have a crowd of people outside a mask
71:55
and you have this awful feeling that the
72:00
BBC didn’t want to deal with the issue
72:02
that the program was about for years
72:04
because it was so awful and ugly and
72:08
sounded like something made up by some
72:10
kind of nativist racist you know it’s
72:12
had everything and then they do and then
72:17
it turns out remember the public sees it
72:19
and drives a van into a crowd yeah I
72:20
mean you know this this sort of couldn’t
72:23
get more complex and wait so and I
72:25
thought after that okay maybe maybe the
72:27
maybe the BBC were right maybe they
72:30
shouldn’t maybe they should cover up the
72:32
gang rape for 1500 girls maybe the
72:35
public can’t cope with it maybe they
72:37
will get into vans now as it happens I
72:39
know the British public I think fairly
72:41
well and I think that that guy in well
72:44
is a very very unusual figure I don’t
72:46
think it’s very common I don’t think
72:47
everyone’s going to do that I don’t
72:48
think we’re all like that wicked
72:50
Madeleine but I don’t know I mean I
72:54
don’t know for sure everywhere I don’t
72:56
know what the I don’t know what happened
72:58
in this country with various other
72:59
countries if there were three attacks
73:00
like that in quick succession I don’t
73:02
know but this is this is really it is
73:07
going to get complex it’s already
73:09
complex and the response to it’s complex
73:12
to how do you how do you if you if you
73:16
are a journalist if you are television
73:20
channel how do you report on this do you
73:22
think about the responsibility of
73:24
alerting someone to these actual real
73:27
atrocities that’s going to force them to
73:28
react on innocent people that did
73:30
nothing in front of this mosque that the
73:32
fact that these people in this mosque or
73:34
somehow or another connected to these
73:36
people that did these horrible crimes
73:37
just by virtue of the fact they’re in
73:38
the same religion that’s insane – yeah
73:41
it’s all insane I mean it seems to me
73:43
the only the only way through it is to
73:45
say first of all I mean I don’t I I
73:48
really American press all the time I
73:49
think that it’s it’s worse than the
73:50
British press in in in that
73:53
self-appointed role of believing its
73:54
task is to stand between the public and
73:57
the facts you know and sort of negotiate
73:59
between the to see what they think the
74:01
public can cope with or shouldn’t know
74:03
and
74:03
and feed them that the American press
74:07
seems to me to be rife with that that
74:09
temptation as ours is but it seems to be
74:12
the only way around this is to not not
74:14
give in to that and to try just to
74:16
publish the facts when they happen
74:18
because it’s just obviously seems to be
74:20
much work we always know in political
74:22
scandal what’s worst to cover up it’s
74:25
always the cover-up right and that that
74:27
may be the case with all this maybe
74:28
maybe the the argument for just the
74:31
papers explaining stuff that’s happened
74:33
is maybe that’s maybe that’s all they
74:38
can do and that it I could just say to
74:41
them it’d be a lot worse if you bottle
74:44
this up because otherwise people will
74:47
get the idea that there is some
74:48
conspiracy to cover over certain stories
74:51
and and they’ll be on to something in
74:53
fact if you think about the millions of
74:55
people that must have seen that the
74:57
story on the rape of fifteen hundred the
75:01
fact that only one person responded that
75:03
way right it’s a pretty extraordinary in
75:05
and of itself yes yes III would have and
75:07
I would have thought on some of this I
75:09
mean you know I don’t know again I mean
75:11
there are there are lots of examples one
75:14
could use but when something bad happens
75:17
like the Manchester Arena attack I’m
75:21
amazed in a way that people are so
75:23
decent I mean I’m so pleased they are
75:26
but they we really we don’t go out
75:29
looking for people to attack you know
75:31
that the public certainly Britain I can
75:33
that happy saying I think it’s a
75:34
monomeric the public we’re not really
75:36
lynch mobs waiting to be got going again
75:39
but the expectation that we are is the
75:42
only possibility of creating us in such
75:45
a way it’s only by treating us as if we
75:49
can’t deal with ugly things that go on
75:52
that you could see the situations where
75:55
you’ve again to see the situation in
75:56
which that all goes wrong in that
75:57
different way yeah I mean I don’t envy
76:03
their position especially trying to pick
76:05
up the ball from here yes with all the
76:08
history and all the terrible things
76:10
especially in England with so many
76:12
attacks over such a relatively short
76:14
period of time where there was a very
76:16
small hist
76:17
before yeah it seemed like this
76:19
immediate eruption of all these issues
76:21
yes and I mean the country in some ways
76:24
I wrote about my latest but most is
76:26
France where yes you the book comes out
76:29
in translation there in a couple of
76:30
months time very interested to see what
76:32
happens because France had of even I
76:36
mean we mention Charlie I’ve David that
76:38
eighteen months or so it had was just I
76:40
mean again we’d all sort of disappears
76:43
now every day’s got bad news of some
76:44
kind but you know to have a major
76:48
Western capital city with 130 people
76:50
killed in an evening with multiple
76:52
suicide bombings and people being gunned
76:54
down from mopeds as they’re sitting
76:56
outside a bar and you know another group
77:00
of people going into a rock concert and
77:02
and you know going through the disabled
77:04
section shooting everyone one by one in
77:06
the disabled section and gunning
77:07
everyone else down and catch him in the
77:09
lavatories and shooting him in there I
77:11
mean that that happened in one night
77:14
alone in Paris the Parisians didn’t
77:17
become you know they didn’t become
77:20
wicked terrible people anything but they
77:22
have I think these I think that the a
77:25
lot of these terrible events have
77:27
happened
77:27
they actually what happens is they sink
77:30
down to a lower level of our
77:32
consciousness so that we what actually
77:35
happens is we we we get over the
77:37
immediate thing quite fast but that
77:40
something that the foundational level
77:42
changes I had a case nobody really
77:44
wanted to linger on but there was one in
77:46
in November in the UK on Oxford Street
where because of course everyone does
after these attacks they always say you
know we will not be changed everyone
tries to sort of channel the spirit of
Churchill and all that sort of thing I
in Churchill hear me roar and and so on
and and actually the the facts are
otherwise in November on Oxford Street
there was a wall we know is that there
were two men who may have had some
disagreement on the platform of a tube
Trevor tube platform whatever happened
it was misunderstood by crowds and it
developed into a stampede out of the
tube station then all the way down
Oxford Street people were locked and
barricaded into the big department
78:26
stores a pop singer got Olly Murs
78:30
tweeted out his
78:31
million followers you know there are
78:33
shots of being fired I’m in the back
78:35
room of the store H&M; and there’s
78:37
something and other people claim that a
78:39
truck had gone down Oxford and mowing
78:42
people down they’ve seen bodies the
78:44
police said it was a major terrorist
78:45
event they were on top of an and the the
78:48
press were all you know running stories
78:50
turned out nothing happened nothing
78:53
happened the next day two men handed
78:55
themselves into a local police station
78:56
saying they thought they might have been
78:58
responsible for it but they were let off
78:59
without any charge what I’m saying is
79:02
they thought they might have been
79:03
responsible for it because they had been
79:04
in an argument that they’d had an
79:06
argument maybe they were they they won’t
79:07
say we’re responsible healthy but like
79:08
they were asking for information and
79:11
they will let go but my point is is that
79:14
is that we can simultaneously say we
79:18
will not be cowed and also actually be
79:21
at the stage where if you just hear a
79:23
bang yeah everyone goes running you you
79:26
don’t want to be the last person to
79:28
figure out what’s going on so as soon as
79:31
something you think is happening people
79:34
in this day and age when there’s just
79:35
this recent history of horrible things
79:38
happening over and over again in Orlando
79:40
here I mean there’s just so many of them
79:42
just instantaneously want to react and
79:46
then like in the Vegas shooting one of
79:48
the things that was very confusing about
79:50
the big Vegas shooting is people would
79:52
go into casinos they would flee from the
79:55
concert into casinos and then talk about
79:56
a shooter and then people would say
79:59
there’s an active shooter at Tropicana
80:01
there’s an advocate always happens
80:02
there’s always that’s why I never
80:04
believe immediate aftermath there’s
80:05
always a claim of other shooters there’s
80:07
always a claim of something that turns
80:08
out not everywhere they were there were
80:10
claiming their shooters all over the
80:12
city but there was no actual shooting in
80:14
these other casinos who was just reports
80:16
of active shooters that’s and by the way
80:20
if you’re interested I there’s a
80:23
fascinating thing about why this happens
80:25
and I wrote a book some years ago about
80:28
Bloody Sunday a terrible event in
80:30
Northern Ireland in 1972 and one of the
80:33
things I went through all the tests many
80:35
of everyone who one of the most
80:36
interesting things was the number of
80:38
people whose memories were just totally
80:40
different from what we know
happened and you know one of the
conclusions I came to was that there’s a
book by a Harvard professor but they
called the seven sins of memory about
this but one of the things that clearly
happens is after any very traumatic
event or very terrible event where
people are effectively in the situation
of a war zone when they were just
shopping or a concert a moment before is
that our memories immediately become
even more suggestible than they are
already and the most obvious thing of
suggestibility in these situations is
that the situation was was worse around
you and you came off better than you did
and that’s almost always the case the
shots that were quite quite a bit away
were very close you you you have to your
memory without knowing it we all do it
our memory tells us we behave better
than we did and that the threat was
worse because this is our over one of
our ways of coping I think mm-hmm
but but it’s a terrible thing obviously
with the I mean with these school
81:46
shootings and things that are going on
81:48
here at the moment I mean this is
81:49
obviously one of the things I watched
81:52
your podcasts the other day where you
81:53
were discussing this for the latest one
81:54
with the Florida and and I think you
81:58
know in a way bafflement
82:00
going on in this society about this is
82:02
understandable yeah the I mean it’s the
82:06
unimaginable horror of being involved in
82:09
that situation your mind is just not
82:10
prepared to cope with that I mean maybe
82:12
if you are a soldier and if you
82:13
experienced combat exactly and you know
82:15
how to stay calm and a firefight because
82:18
you’ve been at a bunch of them but for
82:19
the average person I mean it’s one of
82:21
the reasons why I witnessed testimony
82:24
it’s one of the worst pieces of evidence
82:25
you could ever get including I mean
82:27
about it about basically everything
82:29
about fistfights you know anything oh
82:32
yeah now we all have examples in our
82:33
lives of seeing you know friends who’ve
82:35
been through the same thing we know that
82:37
they’ve burned through the same thing
82:38
and yet they have two totally different
82:39
right so of course you know what
82:41
happened I mean that’s that’s a real
82:44
problem but now you have this thing here
82:46
where I mean some ways even worse than
82:48
we do of the search to notch it up for
82:52
your own political science yeah or
82:53
against the enemy yeah same thing with a
82:55
Twitter
82:56
the Twitter pointment that I mean this
82:58
this obscene glee that goes on after any
83:02
terrorist attack in Europe but I think
83:03
also here as well the attempt is to
83:05
immediately call it for the other side
83:08
or for your side or whatever and to try
83:12
to use terrible events as a way to
83:14
justify whatever your own team is yes I
83:19
have I find it amazing with a gun debate
83:21
here and I would find it amazing coming
83:24
from a different society on it but the
83:26
wages will not shit up for one side or
83:28
the other in it and it’s you’ve got a
83:32
real problem on it I’ve been watching a
83:34
lot of it from the perspective of the
83:36
gun owners NRA members and the people
83:40
that want to defend the idea of having
83:43
guns even of arming teachers and you’re
83:47
looking at their perspective on it and
83:48
their perspective on it is all about
83:50
their rights all about the Constitution
83:52
all about the bill of rights all about
83:54
protecting the second Amendment all
83:56
about its gun ownership being taken away
83:59
gun ownership under attack the NRA under
84:01
attack they’re coming after our guns and
84:03
this is this constant battle of ideas
84:05
it’s on Twitter not addressing the
84:08
actual issue I mean I’m sorry no it’s
84:12
watching this thing harming teachers
84:16
yeah that’s insane I mean this Samuel
84:18
Jackson had a great quote about it but
84:20
you mean it’s you know he put it on
84:23
Twitter like someone tell a motherfucker
84:25
who’s never been in a gun fight the
84:26
problems of arming a bunch of teachers
84:29
right yes somebody said someone’s been
84:31
in a gun fight please tell ya
84:33
motherfuckers somebody said somebody
84:35
said anyone who thinks is a good idea
84:36
giving teachers guns is clearly never
84:39
seen one try to use an overhead
84:40
projector ah yeah there’s there’s Samuel
84:42
Jackson look at that three hundred and
84:44
six thousand likes so you know was an
84:47
effective tweet check the number it was
84:52
only yeah you got three tweets it can’t
84:54
be true nobody likes yeah I I thought
84:57
there was a very pertinent one a few
84:58
years ago in New York on fifth when
85:00
somebody shot their colleague and
85:04
outside the office they came back his
85:07
disgruntled worker shot the colleague
85:08
and
85:09
locally there was some policemen around
85:11
the corner and they came out and started
85:13
firing at the guy who’d done it ended up
85:17
wounding about 11 pedestrian well you
85:19
would I mean I’m not saying by the way
85:22
we have we have our own problems but I
85:24
mean this is a big problem for American
85:25
what I kind of more guns and we have
85:27
people I mean I completely understand
85:31
why the Amendment exists and I think
85:35
it’s a very good idea for the time and I
85:38
think it’s a very understandable idea to
85:39
hold on to it now but but why can’t
85:43
people say for instance I mean we all
85:45
have abstract ideas we have to hold on
85:46
to but we and we all in our countries
85:48
have like weird things that other people
85:50
don’t understand that I think it’s odd
85:52
to have a hereditary constitutional
85:54
monarch for instance and right it is
85:57
weird
85:57
it’s a great way to put it it’s strange
85:59
and if you were starting from now you
86:01
might not do that but but clearly with
86:05
the gun ownership thing it is we are
86:08
willing to take bad things happening
86:12
quite often because we want to hold on
86:14
to the Second Amendment well the second
86:17
amendments been around forever the bad
86:18
things happening quite often is really
86:20
from Columbine on I mean there was a few
86:22
of them before there was the Austin
86:24
Texas but Tower shootings but it seems
86:28
to me I mean again I mean just it’s such
86:31
an obvious point and I don’t it sound
86:32
like it’s not he Britt his saying
86:34
something about America that’s not at
86:37
all welcome but it seems obvious that
86:38
you just you could do a lot more damage
86:41
with a semi-automatic rifle than you can
86:45
with a knife and most people we see this
86:48
in the terrorism as well there are
86:50
really committed terrorists who don’t
86:52
commit acts of violence unless they can
86:54
get hold of a the means to do it
86:57
because we often think well why don’t
86:58
you just like go out with a knife some
87:01
people do but most people actually want
87:04
to go out in that way and what they see
87:05
as being a blaze of glory right so they
87:09
like stopping them having the means of
87:12
getting that very easily seems to me
87:14
very obvious but that isn’t to say that
87:17
I mean of course I think you made a
87:18
point near the dam it’s like saying if
87:20
you say everyone who has a gun is part
87:22
of promises and
87:23
see not because it’s like saying
87:24
everyone who’s got a truck is about the
87:25
problem right but there is there are
87:27
obviously two things one is the
87:29
psychological and whatever the social
87:30
issues are that caused this to keep
87:32
happening and that that is obviously
87:34
very very important to try to get to the
87:36
root of but you can get to the root of
87:39
that or try to get through to that and
87:41
also recognize that people having access
87:43
to some of the weapons they have access
87:46
to in this country must be a part of the
87:49
problem it has to be and there also the
87:55
idea that you should just be able to go
87:59
out and buy a gun without really
88:01
understanding how a gun works at all
88:03
yeah and which is exactly how you do it
88:05
I got my first handgun license in 1994
88:08
that’s when I bought my first handgun I
88:10
just went and bought a handgun I did a
88:12
background check on me that’s it
88:14
I mean I went to the range they showed
88:15
me what the safety is pointed this put
88:17
the earphones on make sure you don’t
88:19
blow your is out bang bang bang and then
88:21
you leave with a gun I mean once your
88:23
background checks clear they find out
88:24
you’re not a criminal there’s not much
88:25
to it there’s a there’s a giant problem
88:29
with that if you want to drive an
88:32
automobile you have to show that you
88:34
understand the laws you have to
88:35
understand you have to sit with an
88:38
expert was to sit there a driving
88:39
instructor they have to go through it
88:41
with you they have to watch your
88:42
movements they have to watch you make
88:44
turns they have to wouldn’t wouldn’t you
88:47
imagine that it would be a good idea to
88:49
have some sort of a clinical evaluation
88:51
of a person that’s gonna gonna buy a gun
88:53
and here’s another thing there was an
88:56
article recently that was saying
88:58
contrary to popular belief most school
89:00
shootings are not committed by people
89:02
who are mentally ill well that’s a
89:04
fucking stupid thing to say you know why
89:06
because if you’re you’re committing a
89:08
school shooting but you’re mentally ill
89:09
okay period then on top of that what
89:13
they’re ignoring conveniently and this
89:15
is another headline thing psychiatric
89:17
medications right these people are
89:20
almost entirely on some form of
89:23
psychiatric medication whether it is
89:26
anti-anxiety pills
89:28
whether it’s antidepressants whether
89:29
they’re they’re all I’m not saying that
89:32
correlation equals causation I’m not
89:34
saying that but to say that
89:36
or not this is just a bullshit this is
89:38
clickbait headlines they’re mentally ill
89:40
100 percent 100 percent of them are
89:42
mentally ill there’s there’s a
89:44
conservative commentator in the UK
89:46
called Peter Hitchens who always makes a
89:48
point after Islamist terrorist attacks
89:50
in Europe that there’s a large number of
89:52
them as well as other types of attack
89:54
who seem to be on some kind of
89:55
medication yes and my point is always
89:58
I’m very very happy to have that
89:59
conversation I think we need to have
90:01
that conversation and we also have to
90:03
have the other parts of it as well
90:05
yes you’re right to say yeah I can’t see
90:08
why we can’t have all of this it’s the
90:10
same thing that we were talking about
90:11
earlier it’s these idea sports right
90:14
these Wars people don’t want to give up
90:17
their idea they don’t want to give up
90:18
any ground whatsoever on their second
90:21
Amendment rights whether it’s owning a
90:23
50 caliber fucking tank gun or whether
90:26
it’s having a gun for home safety or for
90:29
hunting they don’t want to give up
90:31
anything and they feel like it’s a
90:33
slippery slope the people that I follow
90:34
online that are tweeting about this on a
90:36
regular basis if you can go to a lot of
90:38
them like they’re making videos about it
90:41
Dana lash and Colin it is actually its
90:46
name is it’s not Collins Co Lyon Co Lyon
90:49
noir noi are he’s very very vocal about
90:53
and i’m reading all the stuff it’s like
90:54
all anyone’s taking into account is that
90:57
this idea that they’re coming after your
90:59
rights right and and emphasizing the
91:02
idea of a good person with a gun that
91:05
can protect people in these terrible
91:07
situations which can happen as well but
91:09
with what we have to address that’s not
91:11
we’re talking about we have to address
91:13
how the fuck do these crazy people get
91:15
guns why why are so many people on
91:18
mental health medications yeah well
91:20
that’s a huge huge I can’t understand we
91:23
always have this sort of wanting to have
91:25
the conversation about it but there’s
91:26
very little done on it that’s one thing
91:28
I’m very struck with we we have in all
91:31
our countries I miss slipped into a very
91:33
weird attitude towards this type of
91:35
medication yes very weird very just very
91:39
accepting of something that radically
91:41
alters the way your mind works I and
91:45
macaws there’s not an incentive drug
91:48
companies obviously don’t have an
91:49
incentive quite the
91:50
to look into it but it’s another example
91:53
of the the set of a set of things we
91:57
should be thinking about at the moment
91:58
and looking at which we just don’t
92:01
why don’t we because it’s sort of shut
92:03
down because we shut it down ourselves I
92:06
I think it’s just such a range of issues
92:09
this is the case with and it’s always
92:12
the same thing it’s always that if you
92:14
address the question difficult as it
92:16
might be you are attacking an individual
92:19
who might suffer from it yeah who might
92:21
be upset by us addressing the question I
92:24
mean I have a lot of suspicions about
92:27
all sorts of things I’m a very you know
92:29
skeptical person as it were about things
92:31
that I’m told so I’d like to look into
92:32
intending I’m amazed at the number of
92:35
things in our societies that we just
92:37
don’t discuss and they’re all the things
92:39
that we ought to be discussing issues
92:42
like mental health issues issues that
92:45
have to do with the social presumptions
92:47
that are going on left right in the
92:48
center at the moment where you’re not
92:50
meant to discuss things that have Puffs
92:53
anything else very very interesting and
92:54
very important and I just see it
92:59
everywhere this might by the way so this
93:02
is a slightly strange segue to make but
93:04
there was a fascinating one in in
93:07
Britain a couple of days ago a slightly
93:10
lighter subject but there was not that
93:12
much like that but there’s a diver in
93:16
the UK called Tom Daley who married a
93:17
screenwriter from Hollywood called
93:19
Dustin Lance Black and it was announced
93:21
a couple of weeks ago on Valentine’s Day
93:23
that they were having a baby and there
93:25
was a photograph of them holding a scan
93:27
they sent out on their Twitter of two
93:30
men who married who have ultrasounds
93:32
gear and all of the papers and the BBC
93:35
and Evan also report is saying Dustin
93:37
and Tom are having a baby and I mean I’m
93:42
gay and I’m I don’t think I’m homophobic
93:44
but I look this as a thing how someone
93:50
else involved I mean you know there’s a
93:52
joke yeah
93:53
gays a kind of Tim doesn’t mean we can’t
93:55
keep trying but I just glued his eyes
93:59
although nothing
94:01
in the articles about this tells me
94:03
anything I would like to know like I
94:06
know that they didn’t just have a roll
94:07
around and woke up in the morning and
94:08
one of them was preggers I know that and
94:10
I know that there has to be a woman
94:13
involved at some point we know this but
94:16
we are meant just like adapt okay great
94:20
cool
94:21
and it’s almost as if it’s set up so
94:23
that somebody says wait isn’t isn’t
94:27
isn’t a woman isn’t there a uterus so
94:31
that then everyone goes biggert right
94:39
and and of course somebody did somebody
94:43
from the Daily Mail wrote a column
94:45
saying come on to Dad’s isn’t a new
94:47
normal sort of thing and of course then
94:49
everyone piled in on that and all these
94:51
advertisers withdrew their advertising
94:55
literally literally until the day before
94:57
yesterday it was possible to say I don’t
95:00
think you guys can just like have sex
95:02
and make a child literally that was okay
95:05
until the day before yesterday and it’s
95:06
not okay today so what will not be okay
95:09
tomorrow and I just think I think and I
95:13
wrote about it and and maybe a couple
95:16
other people ended up doing it too but I
95:18
think that’s really interesting like a
95:20
lot of this answer I think it’s really
95:22
interesting about this that you are the
95:24
things that seem very obvious to us are
95:27
all the things you’re not meant to write
95:29
about almost as if they’re like booby
95:31
traps where you need to go off yeah and
95:33
and I just think why don’t more people
95:36
pile on in right um because we could
95:39
have a heck of a time and we might well
95:45
people don’t want to pile in on anything
95:47
revolve involving gender or sexuality
95:49
it’s too scary it’s a landmine field joe
95:54
they just name it is then walk in
95:56
especially as you said earlier people
95:58
with regular jobs yeah if you get called
96:00
out for being a racist or a homophobe or
96:02
anything along those lines you’re doomed
96:04
sure it’s some manat case anyone who
96:09
does have a voice
96:11
as a writer or speaker whatever
96:14
broadcaster I think has a
96:16
disproportionate duty to do so right to
96:19
do so I mean there’s no point in just
96:22
repeating those same new lies there’s a
96:26
disproportionate duty to try to break
96:28
them down yeah I come I’m one of my
96:30
favorite quotes that one from HL Mencken
96:31
who says you know that history was
96:32
always progressed by jolly fellows
96:34
heaving dead cats into sanctuaries and
96:37
going roistering down the highways of
96:39
the world and I just I I I wish that
96:44
there were more dead cat heavers it’s
96:51
not a bad job you can make a living
96:52
sometimes and and it’s it’s it’s one of
96:56
the only things worth doing if if we’re
96:58
all going to be told lies and expect it
97:00
to go along with them whether it’s about
97:02
terrorism or gay parenting or mental
97:07
health or anything else
97:07
whole set of them it’s a really
97:09
target-rich environment it is and I
97:12
think there’s more people doing that now
97:14
than ever before but it’s more people
97:17
like you and I who can kind of get away
97:19
with it yeah I don’t know what why do
97:21
you think you get away with it
97:22
me yeah cuz you can’t take me seriously
97:24
right I’m a cage fighting commentator
97:27
and a dirty comedian writing nobody’s
97:30
listening to me and taking me seriously
97:31
in that regard yeah book sort of it’s I
97:37
just first of all I’m a kind person I
97:43
think that helps like I’m not a mean
97:45
person right when I’m saying these
97:47
things I’m saying these things from I’m
97:48
going what what the fuck is this like
97:51
here was one that I thought was really
97:53
fascinating and this is one of the great
97:55
example of how strange we get on
97:59
subjects Caitlyn Jenner when when
98:02
Caitlyn Jenner transitioned that was the
98:05
primary thing that people talk about oh
98:07
my god she’s a woman now and it was
98:09
right after she had been spacing out
98:12
behind the wheel slammed into a woman
98:15
and pushed her into traffic and a
98:16
head-on collision and the woman died and
98:18
that was almost just completely
98:20
forgotten
98:20
yes completely forgotten yes not only
98:23
that she doesn’t believe in gay man
98:25
right like what your you have the wrong
98:30
spokesperson I mean you could not have a
98:33
more wrong spokesperson yeah but yet
98:36
ESPN and glamour Woman of the Year and
98:39
these all these different things and
98:41
athlete of the year yes wearing dresses
98:43
and fabulous and glam and let’s get your
98:45
chin shaved down right because that’s
98:47
who you really are who you really are is
98:49
not this person there now you got to you
98:52
got to shave your chin down it’s it’s
98:54
it’s big it goes right that thing about
98:56
the almost as if you’re being dead yes
98:58
you better discuss it I said this to Sam
99:01
Harris I got him into trouble just on
99:03
his podcast by saying this and he didn’t
99:05
attack me apparently he got a whole load
99:07
of transfer of accusations because of me
99:09
but I said to him I thought what was
99:12
happening was that we were being asked
99:14
not only to agree that Caitlyn Bruce
99:16
Jenner to become Caitlyn general the
99:17
Caitlyn Jenner was a woman but that but
99:20
that you had to find her yes Jenny you
99:26
were just and and I find those those
99:29
ones are just there was one the other is
99:30
a bit like that they gave her it’s like
99:33
I dare you you just you just try
99:35
pretending pretending that Tom and
99:37
dusting can’t happen and and it was the
99:41
same with those a little while ago
99:42
there’s a boy in Britain who was I kind
99:45
of whether he he wanted to turn up to
99:47
school in a dress he’s like nine years
99:48
old and I think there was a row I kind
99:50
of where the school said yes or no it
99:53
was a big thing and then it became her
99:54
way in on the behalf of the
99:55
nine-year-old trans kid lots of
99:59
questions to ask there yeah and and then
100:02
it became the the nine-year-old kid was
100:04
a was was a became a model for a fashion
100:08
shoot and then it’s like find the
100:12
nine-year-old boy who said he’s a girl
100:14
attractive and say it’s beautiful how
100:19
much more do you want to push people
100:21
like no they’re rewarding they’re like
100:24
like isn’t she lovely right what are you
100:30
doing to us I what are you trying to
100:34
make us agree to what what’s the cause
100:38
of
100:39
all of us you must have been talking
100:42
about this like what this is this
100:44
bizarre illogical conversation that
100:46
falls into these very convenient yeah
100:49
well cut grooves that you’re really not
100:52
allowed to slide the ideas arrived
100:54
what’s causing this I think it’s so many
100:59
things I one is one is that it’s
101:00
possible this is what happens when the
101:03
economics goes wrong I’ve got a feeling
101:06
the economics I mean is that if people’s
101:09
if people aren’t saying like wait it
101:11
increases in their living senses I mean
101:13
my generation I know I’m 38 by just
101:17
above this generation but the
101:18
generations ever so slightly below me is
101:21
becoming aware that France it won’t get
101:23
on the property ladder at all maybe
101:26
property ladder meaning owning a home
101:28
owning a home the things that their
101:30
parents generation got not easily by any
101:33
means but it wasn’t the wasn’t easy for
101:35
boomers but that that somehow they’re
101:40
going to have it harder than their
101:41
parents generation or might not enjoy
101:43
the living standards that their parents
101:45
generation enjoyed might be certainly in
101:48
Western Europe coming home it might be
101:50
occurring to them what do you do in
101:52
those search situations you’ve got to
101:56
have other things to to get worth from
101:58
if for instance you’re not going to own
102:01
a home until you’re 40 and at that point
102:04
if you’re a woman at your career you
102:05
need to have children but you can’t
102:06
afford to take the time off work and you
102:09
might not be able to start a family and
102:10
then you’re trying to start a family in
102:12
your 40s and it’s harder very hard and a
102:15
whole set of other things like that that
102:17
are definitely delayed for new
102:19
generation I think that it’s possible I
102:21
not saying certainly it’s it’s possible
102:24
it seems to me that that generation
102:25
might discover new gods and might want
102:30
to enforce the new rules just as avidly
102:33
as the old gods and and there is an
102:38
element of that going like I can’t
102:41
understand why otherwise every time I
102:43
talk about the things we talked about
102:46
there they would just continuously be
102:48
this very angry reaction not oh that’s
102:51
interesting you know I never thought I
102:52
know
102:53
I think probably like you now I mean
102:54
it’s quite hard to shock me it ought to
102:56
upset me you know that’s interesting you
103:00
know why do you think that but so why do
I always get this like we’ve got to stop
him other than that these are new
Commandments that we’re breaking hmm and
and white so and I mean they’re all sort
of connected aren’t they these things
yeah they’re all attempts to but they’re
all attempts to something like purity
which disturbs me we’re sort of if we
could just get everything in a row you
know you even hear that thing get in
your lane yeah that’s Oh get in your
lane
Oh do you think you are what’s my lane I
think I’ve said it a few times you know
but I mean but only people that needed
to stay in their Lane New York I’m
different New York Times yes as we disap
103:50
Lane over okay no I’m reading your times
103:52
the plane oh and and there’s a there’s a
103:54
question as you know agony aren’t we
103:57
call it what do you call self help
103:58
whatever advice column hmm this woman
104:00
says she was on the on the train a
104:04
couple days ago and there was a man who
104:06
came on with his girlfriend he was being
104:07
really abusive to her and it just kept
104:09
happening and he was really it was kind
104:10
of nasty brawler violence situation she
104:15
doesn’t know what to do other people the
104:16
care they’ll move away isn’t and she’s
104:18
and of course you can see what’s coming
104:19
the culmination of it is she says she
104:21
gets off the train and she wonders
104:23
whether she should have said something
104:24
but she says conscious of her white
104:26
privilege and these people were people
104:29
of color hmm and I am reading this I’m
104:33
thinking what you now now if you saw a
104:38
man of different skin pigmentation from
104:42
you abusing a woman of different skin
104:45
pigmentation from you the right thing is
104:48
not to defend the woman that seems like
104:50
a just a real justification for being a
104:53
coward yes
104:54
but but but I tend the advice was you
104:56
know you did sort of the right thing
104:57
maybe you should have spoken to an
104:58
official certainly but there was no kind
104:59
of so all this stuff all this weird get
105:02
in your lane no you know notes your
105:06
privilege you know way up your privilege
105:07
I mean that’s a good way to make society
105:09
have a nervous breakdown wake up you’re
105:11
privileged you know it’s privileged
105:12
scorecards I mean my god I am but but
105:16
all of these things seem to it’s almost
105:18
as if people think if we get the the the
105:21
lanes correct everything will be sorted
105:25
and here’s a problem is that that first
105:29
of all the means of doing this are just
105:31
hideous
105:32
I mean hideous they accentuate racial
105:35
difference they accentuate sexual and
105:37
gender difference they accentuate
105:39
everything else and the destination is
105:43
horrible it is not the Nirvana they
105:47
think that they’re creating mmm so this
105:50
is a really good moment to try to look
105:53
at some of this and to talk about it and
105:56
to think about as widely and as freely
105:58
as we can and yet and yet the effort is
106:02
to do the opposite I think your honor
106:04
something with the idea that this
106:05
radical progressive very restrictive
106:08
line of communication ideology that
106:11
we’re experiencing we’re talking about
106:13
it’s coming from a lot of people that
106:15
don’t have a religion yes they’re
106:17
atheists or they’re at the very least
106:19
agnostics modern progressives very
106:21
rarely religious yes and this mouse
106:25
before somebody who’s non-belief like
106:27
myself this is a painful thing to look
106:29
at but again we have to think about it
106:31
but that’s isn’t that an interesting
106:32
thing as well because you think of
106:34
yourself as being on a team with these
106:35
other atheists or agnostics see I don’t
106:38
but you don’t but I’m saying as an
106:40
atheist yourself you have to look at it
106:42
that way you’ve already lumped yourself
106:43
in with them yes III had speaking of
106:46
camps in the US a while ago and I spoke
106:48
to a guy who’s really really clever
106:50
skewed and he was a free thinker he said
106:54
he said the afters we were talking he
106:56
said you know he’d had some hideous
106:58
experience at a local free thinker
106:59
Society you know where everyone’s like
107:01
get in your lane and he was like I
107:03
thought that being among free thinkers
107:06
like the rest would all be good they no
107:08
no no they they’re free thinkers turn
107:11
out to be just as able to be blindfolded
107:13
if you know on certain things down when
107:18
you imagine is of course self proclaimed
107:20
freethinkers would be even more inclined
107:22
to adopt a rigid ideology they’re
107:25
proclaiming themselves to be a free
107:27
thinker and and it’s possible this comes
107:29
from that you know the the old Jaguar
107:33
sensors you know that the sensor knows
107:36
everything that the people are really
107:38
into and I spoke once to a band who was
107:42
on the British Board of Film
107:43
classification
107:44
he said all day watching really hardcore
107:46
pornography deciding what could be
107:47
legalized so that’s you must have a very
107:50
dark view of humanity it wasn’t justice
107:53
scalia’s interpretation of pornography I
107:56
don’t know how to describe it but I’ll
107:58
know it when I see it right exactly
108:00
like why aren’t you our fucking judge
108:02
and it may be it but it may be that
108:04
these people but a lot of conservatives
108:07
have this thing that one becomes rigid
108:09
about something because you’ve seen into
108:12
the abyss because you don’t know you
108:15
might and behave in a certain very
108:18
terrible way and so you you you want to
108:22
pull back from that chaos you want to
108:25
pull other people back as well it seems
108:27
to me that a lot of so-called free
108:28
thinkers self designated free fingers
108:30
may well have these glimpses and may
108:33
well think I don’t know what’s holding
108:35
this together and therefore might
108:39
precisely for that reason be
108:41
disproportionately rigid on almost any
108:44
new ideology that came along get in lane
108:47
yeah yeah I like this idea that this is
108:53
almost like a substitution for religion
108:55
it’s almost like there’s an inherent
108:57
need that we have because human beings
109:00
have operated under these patterns for
109:02
so long we can’t have this yeah yeah
109:10
it’s it’s interesting because the more
109:12
you like we found ways to mock it right
109:16
and one of the ways to mock it and I
109:17
think that that’s important and that
109:19
mockery although it seems trivial what
109:22
it does do is let people know how
109:24
ridiculous other people feel those ideas
109:26
are and then it makes them really they
109:29
don’t like being mocked the term social
109:31
justice warrior is wonderful for that
109:33
because it just makes you look like such
109:34
a fucking fool you know social justice
109:37
warrior yes like that I was a colleague
109:41
of mine a spectator in London called
109:43
a-rod little wrote a few years any any
109:45
man who says he’s a feminist clearly
109:47
just as seeking a shag for sure well I
109:51
mean it’s one thing to want equality but
109:54
to proudly state that you’re a feminist
109:57
is it’s almost yeah I have joked around
109:59
about it like I see what you’re doing
110:00
yeah you don’t run fast you can’t pick
110:03
things up there was must he liked to
110:04
fuck I get it somebody said is very
110:07
faulty in Britain they said they
110:10
described himself as an anti-racist
110:12
party and some comedian who said it
110:14
actually makes makes you think they
110:16
might be racist
110:17
we like saying you’re an anti pedophilia
110:21
children’s agency that’s hilarious
110:30
that’s so true it’s so true it’s a it’s
110:33
virtue signaling to the highest degree
110:34
it’s like you you’re putting up your
110:36
flag of moral superiority standing on
110:39
your high ground but it is it is it
110:40
obviously means a great deal to these
110:42
people but yeah but then the question is
110:44
just how to how to invite them not to
110:46
think like that
110:47
I think mockery mockery is one of the
110:49
best ways because it just lets them know
110:52
that other people think it’s
110:53
preposterous so it’s not achieving the
110:55
desired result the desired result is oh
110:57
look at this amazing person there’s
110:59
incredible progressive ways of thinking
111:01
not like oh look at this transparent
111:03
fuck who’s just trying to get laid
111:06
that’s that’s how a lot of us see it
111:09
yeah they don’t see that we see it that
111:11
way and some of them I mean it’s in a
111:14
lot of ways a lot of our behavior is its
111:18
experimental you know I mean people are
111:20
experimenting with various different
111:22
ways of gaining social preference points
111:26
well this is this is why I was saying if
111:29
people aren’t believers there are things
111:32
they can learn from religion and from
111:33
tradition mm-hmm
111:35
and I’ve always thought that the I’ve
111:38
always thought there’s one central
111:39
insight to the judeo-christian tradition
111:42
which I wish that the social justice
111:44
warriors bore in mind and that is that’s
111:46
the guy
111:47
Navid n’ and and and the the or can’t
111:51
recall the Crooked Timber of humanity
111:53
mm-hmm just just to recognize the
111:55
central truth which is in that tradition
111:57
and in others that that we’re not born
112:01
in this situation of Rousseau e’en
112:04
perfection or goodness quite quite
112:08
otherwise we are we are this very very
112:14
contorted being which is part which is
112:17
capable of incredible greatness and
112:20
beauty and kindness and forgiveness and
112:23
also capable of their opposites and
112:26
that’s and that it’s not it’s not that
112:28
you are one and other people are the
112:30
other but all of us all of us both all
112:35
the time and so there never is a victory
112:38
and there never is a win rather than
112:41
trying to deal with and restrain your
112:47
own worst impulses in the life that you
112:49
have and honestly express all the issues
112:53
that arrive while you’re trying to do
112:55
that absolutely and and trying to tell
112:59
the truth where you see it and and
113:01
giving voice to it and trying to I mean
113:04
you know this is just it’s just you so
113:06
clear to me that that if people if
113:08
people could realize this is a central
113:10
problem of the thing that you and I and
113:12
others all faces the the desire to claim
113:16
that the that somebody who disagrees on
113:18
an issue isn’t just of a disagreeing
113:22
mind but evil hmm and that in any you
113:27
know we have in Britain we are wracked
113:29
at the moment still by 18 months after a
113:32
single vote on a single matter of
113:34
governance we are still wracked by
113:35
really unpleasant politic from brexit
113:39
yeah
113:39
and I suspect it’s it’s not I hate the
113:41
overlap of the two but it’s probably
113:43
something like the Trump events here but
113:46
again and again you come back to the
113:48
same thing which is just instead of
113:49
thinking one side is entirely right and
113:52
the other entirely I didn’t say you give
113:53
up on objective fact or anything I’ve
113:55
been just consider that your opponent
113:57
might be approaching this with an honest
113:59
mode
114:00
I might have honest reasons for
114:03
disagreeing with you and in the absence
114:05
of that and with media just endlessly
114:07
feeding us whatever wood is we know our
114:09
own side happens to think in the absence
114:13
of that I just see our trenches in both
114:15
our countries just being dug deeper and
114:17
deeper until until there’s just no hope
114:19
of being able to even shout over the top
114:21
and be heard and one can only get to
114:25
that stage if if as I say you recognize
114:28
that it’s it’s it’s not a constant fight
114:32
against Nazis and you know I mean it’s
114:38
by the way and also never to forget that
114:41
the Nazis didn’t seem like the Nazis to
114:43
a lot of people when the Nazis were
114:44
being with Nazis but it’s just it’s just
114:48
not as easy as that no it’s not you know
114:52
but it’s it’s an easy way to demonize
114:54
the other side yeah it’s an easy way to
114:57
prop up your side it’s a it’s a cheap
114:59
trick it is but came back to where we
115:02
started
115:03
what if the cheap trick ends up having
115:05
some terrible consequence hmm of making
115:10
all of our defenses go down you know
115:18
well the both of you that I mean we
115:20
started the conversation off with that
115:22
Community Guidelines strike good lord
115:26
yeah this is this really is a very very
115:30
strange time very strange always was
115:33
Douglas thank you very much I really
115:35
really enjoyed this conversation I
115:37
really appreciate it and your book that
115:39
is out now is death of Europe it’s
115:42
called immigration identity Islam and
115:45
it’s variable if you can find any book
115:47
shops left minutes um you gotta get it
115:50
online you can get it online as well
115:52
there’s a few Barnes and Nobles out
115:53
there all right thank you Douglas Murray
115:55
ladies and gentlemen great pleasure
115:56
thank you
115:58
[Music]
116:02
[Applause]
116:07
[Music]
116:12

Joe Rogan Experience #1139 – Jordan Peterson

45:04
you’ll be able to participate in and if
he’s fun to play with in adults we’ll
teach him things and then he wins at
life and so when you say to your kid it
doesn’t matter whether you win or lose
matters how you play the game what
you’re saying is don’t forget kid that
what you’re trying to do here is to do
well at life and you need to practice
the strategies that enable you to do
well at life well you’re in any specific
game and you never want to compromise
your ability to do well at life for the
sake of winning a single game and
there’s a deep ethic in that and it’s
the ethic of reciprocity in games part
of the reason that we’re so obsessed
with sports is because we like to see
that dramatized you know like the person
we really admire as an athlete isn’t
only the person who wins we don’t like
the narcissistic winners they’re winners
and that’s a plus but if they’re
narcissistic they’re not good team
players they’re only out for themselves
then we think well you’re a winner in
the narrow sense but your character is
suspect you’re no role model even though
you’re a winner and it’s because
we’re looking for something deeper we’re
looking for that the manifestation of
character that allows you to win across
the set of possible games and that’s a
real thing that’s a real ethic it’s a
46:13
fundamental ethic I think what you’re
46:15
pointing out that’s very important is
46:16
we’re we’re searching for the person
46:18
who’s got it all nailed someone who
46:21
tries their hardest but is also honest
46:25
enough about the circumstances to not
46:28
cry foul when it’s gone
46:30
the other person’s way yeah well that’s
46:32
part of resilience that’s right like
46:34
you’re not gonna win it you’re not going
46:36
to you’re not gonna score on every shot
46:37
right it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take
46:39
the shots doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try
46:40
to to hit the goal but part of part of
46:43
being able to continue to take shots is
46:46
to have the strength of character to
46:48
tolerate the fact that that in that
46:49
instance you weren’t on top it’s more
46:52
trivial in games than it is in fights
46:55
and it’s also the response is much more
46:59
negative to the from the fans if you
47:01
lose a fight and complain about it it is
47:04
it’s ruthless there because they
47:07
understand that you’ve made a huge
47:09
character error yeah so why do you think
47:12
it’s more important in fights than it is
47:14
in games why do you think it is because
47:15
the consequences are so grave because
47:17
you recognize that the high is much
47:19
higher and the lows are much lower to
47:21
lose a basketball game sucks but it’s
47:23
nothing like losing a fight there’s no
47:25
comparison it’s not even so what do you
think it is the damages the fighter if
he complains about losing why is that a
mistake why do the fans respond so
negatively to that because they know
they know that you lost they know that
you’re complaining for no reason and
you’re not a hero
they want you to be better than them
they want you to be the person that has
the courage to step into a cage or a
47:47
ring or wherever you with whatever the
47:49
format is you’re competing and to do
47:51
something that’s extremely difficult and
47:53
when you do that they hold you to a
47:54
higher state right to lose with grace
47:56
yes and when you fall especially if you
47:58
were a champion that is one of the most
48:00
disappointing things ever when champion
48:02
complains right and and it is okay so
48:04
response is horrific from the audience
48:06
okay so that’s a great example so let’s
48:08
imagine what does the person who loses
48:11
something important with grace do and
48:13
the answer is fairly straightforward
48:16
accepts the defeat and thinks okay what
48:18
what is it that I have left to improve
48:21
that will decrease the possibility of a
48:22
similar defeat in the future yes right
48:24
soso so what he’s doing is because the
48:27
great athlete and the great person is
48:30
not only someone who’s exceptionally
48:31
skilled at what they do but who’s trying
48:33
to expand their skills at all at all
48:35
times yes and the attempt to expand
48:38
their skills at all times is even more
48:40
important than the fact that they’re
48:41
great to begin with because the
48:42
trajectory is so important more
48:43
important in particular to the audience
48:46
it’s extremely important the audience
48:48
because you are the person who’s
48:49
competing you are expecting them to live
48:52
out this life in a perfect way or in a
48:54
much more powerful way than you’re
48:55
capable yes and so part of that is the
48:57
skill because they put in the practice
48:59
but part of that also is the willingness
49:01
to push the skill farther into new
49:03
domains of development with each action
49:05
and that’s really what people like to
49:07
watch right they don’t like to watch a
49:08
perfect athletic performance they like
49:10
to watch a perfect athletic performance
49:12
that’s pushed into the domain of new
49:14
risk they want to see both at the same
49:16
time you’re really good at what you do
49:18
and you’re getting better okay so you
49:19
lose a match which is not any indication
49:22
that you’re not good at what you do you
49:23
might not be as good as the person who
beat you but if you lose the match and
then whine what you’ve done is sacrifice
the higher order principle of constant
improvement of your own skills yes
because you should be analyzing the loss
and saying the reason I lost insofar as
it’s relevant to this particular time
and place is the insufficiencies I
manifested that defeated me and I need
49:45
to track those insufficiencies so that I
49:47
can rectify them in the future and if
49:48
I’m blaming it on you or the referees or
49:50
the situation that I’m not taking
49:53
responsibility and I’m not pushing
49:54
myself forward and so then you also take
49:56
the meaning out of it like one of the
49:58
things I’ve been doing on my tour people
50:01
are criticizing me to some degree for
50:03
saying things to people that are obvious
50:04
well first of all it’s not like I didn’t
50:06
bloody well know they were obvious when
50:08
I wrote those rulings you were the rules
50:10
in my book for example stand up straight
50:12
with your shoulders back you know treat
50:14
yourself like you’re someone responsible
50:16
for helping it’s like I know perfectly
50:18
well that those can be read as cliches
50:20
the question is cliche let’s say is
50:23
something that’s so true that it’s that
50:25
it’s become that it’s become it’s widely
50:29
accepted by everyone well but we don’t
50:31
know why it’s true anymore and so it’s
50:35
this issue that the issue that we’re
50:37
talking about here or the issue of being
50:38
a good sport we need to figure out why
50:40
that’s true and the reason that it’s
50:42
true is that you’re trying to push your
50:44
development farther than you’ve already
50:45
developed at every point in time and now
50:47
that’s the proper that’s the proper
50:49
moral attitude so
50:56
when you see an athletic performance
50:58
where someone is pushing themselves
50:59
beyond what they are you see someone
51:01
dramatizing the process of proper
51:03
adaptation it isn’t the skill itself
51:05
it’s the extension of the skill when you
51:07
see someone acting like a bad sport then
51:09
they’re sacrificing that and so they’re
51:10
sacrificing the higher for the lower and
51:12
no one likes that in the fights it’s got
51:15
to be see the question is that’s the
51:17
thing I can’t quite figure out is why
51:19
that would be even exaggerated in a
51:20
fight situation and you said it’s
51:23
because the stakes are so high
51:24
yeah the consequences of victory or
51:26
defeat they’re just so much greater
51:29
there’s your your health is on the line
51:32
it’s one of the rare things that you do
51:34
where your health is on the line your
51:37
physical health right so there’s more
51:38
extreme victories and more game defeats
51:40
and so the morality that’s associated
51:42
with defeat is more extreme exactly
51:44
because there’s more on the line and the
51:48
way people treat the champions it’s it’s
51:50
a it’s a very different thing it’s the
51:53
the respect and adulation that a
51:55
champion receives is it’s the pinnacle
51:58
of sports in terms of the the love from
52:01
the audience when someone wins a great
52:04
fight it’s there’s nothing like it and
52:06
this is one of the reasons why these
52:07
people are willing to put their health
52:09
on the line because that high the high
52:11
of victory and it’s not just a victory
52:14
it’s a you know what what is that who
52:16
was it who said the victory is really
52:21
the victory over the lesser you it’s a
52:24
victory it’s always the victory is over
52:28
you’ve got to realize a guy like steep a
52:30
Miocic who defends is heavyweight title
52:33
this weekend in the UFC he is he’s the
52:37
heavyweight champion the world but he’s
52:39
not undefeated he lost in his career
52:41
he’s lost a couple of times and he you
52:43
know as I’m sure he’s lost wrestling
52:45
matches and sparring sessions in the gym
52:48
and all he’s a product of improvement
52:51
right he’s a product of discipline and
52:53
hard work and thinking and strategy and
52:56
constantly improving upon his skills and
52:58
so so in because of that he’s the
53:00
baddest man on the planet so my in my
53:01
book rule for is this is 12 excuse me
53:05
this is from 12 rules for life rule 4 is
53:09
come
53:10
carry yourself to who you were yesterday
53:11
not to who someone else is today yes
53:13
because you need to be you need to have
53:15
a hierarchy of improvement you need to
53:18
be aiming something for something and
53:19
that means you’re going to be lesser
53:20
than people who’ve always already
53:22
attained along that dimension yes and
53:23
that can give rise to envy so the
53:26
question is who should you defeat in the
53:27
final analysis and the answer is you
53:29
should defeat your former self
53:30
you should be constantly trying to do
53:32
that and you’re the right control for
53:34
yourself to because you’re the one who’s
53:36
had all your advantages and
53:37
disadvantages and so if you want to
53:39
compete fairly with someone then you
53:40
should be competing with you and it is
53:42
the case and this is what we were
53:44
talking about – with regards to the self
53:46
improvement of the fighter is well if
53:49
you’re improving yourself then what you
53:51
are doing is competing with your lesser
53:52
self and then you might also ask well
53:54
what is that lesser self and that lesser
53:57
self would be resentful and bitter and
53:59
and aggressive and vengeance seeking and
54:04
all of those things that go along with
54:05
having a negative moral character and
54:07
those are things that interfere with
54:08
your ability to progress as you move
54:10
forward through life so it’s very
54:13
necessary to understand that this is why
54:15
you know I’ve been stressing this idea
54:18
of personal responsibilities like well
54:20
personal responsibility is to compete
54:21
with yourself is to be slightly better
54:23
than yourself the next day and it better
54:25
in some way that you can actually manage
54:27
and that’s humility it’s right like well
54:29
I’m a flawed person and I’ve got all my
54:31
problems could I be as good as person X
54:34
it’s like not the right question the
54:36
right question is could you be slightly
54:38
better tomorrow than you’re currently
54:39
flawed self and the answer to that is if
54:41
you have enough humility to set the bar
54:44
properly low then you could be better
54:46
tomorrow than you are today because what
54:49
you also have to do is you have to say
54:51
well here’s all my flaws and my
54:54
insufficiencies and the best that
54:56
someone that flawed and insufficient
54:58
could do to improve and actually do it
55:00
is this and that’s not worth going out
55:02
in the street and celebrating with
55:03
plaque arts you know it’s like well this
55:05
is why I tell people to clean the room
55:07
it’s not going to brag to someone that
55:08
you did that but someone is insufficient
55:10
as you might be able to manage it and
55:12
that means you actually are on the
55:14
pathway to self improvement and you’re
55:15
transcending your former self and you
55:17
might say well what’s the right way of
55:19
being in the world if there is such a
55:21
thing and it’s not acting according to a
55:23
set of rules
55:24
it’s attempting continually to transcend
55:26
the flawed thing that you currently are
55:28
and what’s so interesting about that is
55:30
that the mean meaning in the meaning in
55:32
life is to be found in that pursuit so
59:56
it’s things are going really badly for
you and that there’s just chance
associated with that sometimes and you
and the people around you are doing
stupid things to make it worse it’s like
okay what have you got under those
circumstances you’ve got the possibility
to slowly raise yourself out of the mire
you’ve got that the possibility to do
just what the fighter does when he’s
defeated which is to say well regardless
of the circumstances that might have led
to my defeat like even if there were
errors on the part of the referee this
is no time to whine about it this is a
time to take stock of what I did wrong
so that I could improve it into the
future and that’s the right attitude you
know in the Old Testament one of the
things that’s really interesting about
the Old Testament stories is in the Old
Testament the Jews keep getting walloped
by God it’s like they struggle up and
make an empire and then they just get
walloped and then it’s all crushed in
there and they’re they’re out of it for
generations and then they struggle back
up and make an empire and then they get
demolished again and it happens over and
over and over and the the attitude of
the Old Testament Hebrews is we must
have made a mistake it’s never to shake
their fist at the sky and curse fate
it’s never that the presupposition is if
things aren’t working out it’s my fault
and that’s a hell of a presupposition
and you might say well of course you
know what’s that that underestimates the
degree to which there’s systemic
oppression etc etc and and the and the
vagaries of fate it’s like it doesn’t
over underestimate it it’s not the point
the point is your best strategic
61:28
position is how am i insufficient and
61:31
how can I rectify that that’s what
61:33
you’ve got and the thing is you are
61:35
insufficient and you could rectify it
both of those are within your grasp if
you aim low enough one of the things why
do you see the that’s another thing you
keep saying aim low enough have a low
enough bar why do you why do you mean
that well let’s say you’ve got a kid and
you want the kid to improve you don’t
set them a bar that’s so high that it’s
impossible for them to attain it you
take a look at the kid and you think
okay this kid’s got this range of skill
here’s a challenge we can throw at him
or her that exceeds their current level
of skill but gives them a
reasonable probability of success and so
like I’m saying it tongue-in-cheek to
some degree you know it’s like but if
you’re but I’m doing it as an aid to
humility it’s like well I don’t know how
to start improving my life someone might
say that and I would say well you’re not
aiming low enough there’s something you
could do that you are regarding is
trivial that that you could do that you
would do that would result in an actual
improvement but it’s not a big enough
improvement for you so you won’t lower
yourself enough to take the opportunity
incremental steps yes and so this is
also what is achieved through exercise
it’s one of the most important well what
do you do when you go and lift weights
you don’t go on like if you haven’t
bench press before you don’t put 400
pounds on the damn bar and drop the and
drop the bar through your skull I know
you think look when I started working
out when I was a kid I was I was wait
about a hundred and thirty pounds and I
was six foot one so thin kid and I
smoked a lot I wasn’t in good shape I
wasn’t in good physical shape and I went
to the gym and it was bloody
embarrassing you know when people would
come over and help me with the goddamn
weights here’s how you’re supposed to
use this you know it was humiliating and
maybe I was pressing 65 pounds or
something at that point you know but
what am I gonna do I’m gonna lift up a
hundred fifty pounds and injure myself
right off the bat no I had to go in
there and strip down and put my skinny
goddamn self in front of the mirror and
think son-of-a-bitch there’s all these
monsters in the gym who’ve been lifting
weights for ten years and I’m struggling
to get 50 pounds off the bar tough luck
for me but I could lift 50 pounds and it
wasn’t fair very long until I could lift
75 and well you know how it goes but and
I never injured myself when I was late
lifting and the reason for that was I
never pushed myself past where I knew I
could go and I pushed myself a lot you
know I gained 35 pounds of muscle in
about three years in University I kind
of had to quit because I was eating so
goddamn much I couldn’t stand it
seething like six meals a day it was
just taking up too much time but there’s
a humility in determining what it is
that the wretched creature that you are
can actually manage aim low and I don’t
mean don’t aim and I don’t mean don’t
aim up but you have to accept the fact
that you can set yourself a goal that
you can attain and there’s not going to
be much glory in it to begin with
because if you’re not in very good shape
the goal
Yuuka day could attain tomorrow isn’t
very glorious but it’s a hell of a lot
better than nothing and it beats the
hell out of bitterness and it’s way
better than blaming someone else it’s
way less dangerous and you could do it
and what’s cool about it there’s a
statement in the New Testament it’s
called the Matthew principle and
economists use it to describe how the
economy in the world works to those who
have everything more will be given from
those who have nothing everything will
be taken it’s like what’s very
pessimistic in some sense because it
means that as you start to fail you fail
more and more rapidly but it also means
that as you start to succeed you succeed
more and more rapidly and so you take an
incremental step and well now you can
64:58
lift 55 pounds instead of 52 point 5
65:01
pounds you think well what the hell is
65:02
that it’s like it’s one step on a very
65:04
long journey and so it’s it and it
65:07
starts to compound on you so a small
65:10
step today means puts you in a position
65:11
to take a slightly bigger step for the
65:13
next day and then that puts you in a
65:15
position to take a slightly bigger step
65:16
the next day and you do that for two or
65:18
three years man you’re starting to
65:20
stride you know what I have so many
65:22
people coming up to me now this is one
65:23
of the things that’s so insanely fun
65:25
about this tour which is so positive
65:27
it’s it brings me to tears regularly
65:30
it’s mind boggling because people come
65:32
up to me and this is happening wherever
65:34
I go now and they say they’re very
65:36
polite when they come and talk to me you
65:38
know and they’re always apologetic for
65:40
interrupting and so it’s never it’s
75:34
that what that means is that these kids
have been educated for twelve years and
no one had ever sat them down and said
okay what the hell are you doing and why
and how are you gonna get like where do
you want to go why do you want to get
there how are you gonna get there
how are you gonna mark your progress
they’ve never walked them through that
exercise you walk people through that
exercise just to get them to do that
increases the probability that they’ll
stay on track by 50% that’s incredible
well it’s one of the things I’ve always
complained about is that they know one
people teach you facts they don’t teach
you how to approach life they don’t
teach you how to think they don’t teach
you how to confront why do the
insecurities and different traps that
your mind will set up for you yeah well
that’s what partly what’s so fun about
doing this lecture tour because that’s
exactly what I’m talking to people about

..

83:28
right I’m transmitting information that
I’ve learned from very very wise people
and so there’s that but also we don’t
want to underestimate the utility of the
technology right because we have this
long-form technology now and it’s
enabling us to have this discussion and
so we can get deeper into things
publicly and socially then we were able
to before and I see this I see this as a
manifestation of that and and as and I’m
hoping too that maybe maybe what’s
happening because we’re gonna have a lot
of adaptation to do in the next 20 years
as things change so rapidly we can
hardly comprehend it and hopefully the
way we’re going to be able to manage
that is to think and hopefully these
long form discussions will provide the
political or provide the public forum
for us to actually think to actually
engage at a deep enough level so we’ll
be able to master the transformations
and I think that’s possible and him
part of the reason that I wrote this
book and well part of the reason that
I’d be doing what I’ve been doing for
84:24
the last thirty years because I really
have believed since nineteen eighty five
something like that that the way out of
political polarization the way out of
the excesses of the right and the left
is through the individual I think the
West got that right the fundamental unit
of measurement is the individual and the
fundamental task of the individual is to
engage in this process of humble
self-improvement I believe that’s the
case and that’s where the meaning is and
that’s where the responsibility is and I
think and I’m hoping that if enough
people in the West and then and then the
rest of the world for that matter but
we’re very polarized in the West right
now if enough people take responsibility
for getting their individual life’s
together then we’ll get wise enough so
we won’t let this process of political
polarization put us back to the same
places that we went so many times in the
20th century I don’t see another
antidote for it it’s not political it’s
ethical this is the message that I
always hear from you and this is you as
a friend this is the you that I
understand but this is not how you’re
commonly represented you are the most
misrepresented person I’ve ever met in
my life
I have never seen someone who has so
much positive that gets ignored and
where people are looking for any little
thing that they could possibly
misrepresent and switch up and change
and I’m kind of stunned by it I mean I
I’m really not sure what it is about you
that’s so polarizing with all these
different people that are deciding that
85:58
you are some sexist transphobic evil
86:04
person that’s this right-wing
86:06
all right the figure you know even to
86:11
the point where it’s it’s it’s kind of
86:14
humorous to me sometimes when I read
86:16
some of these these takes on you what do
86:20
you think that’s from like what what is
86:22
have you this is a new thing for you
86:25
you mean this only been the last few
86:27
years that you’ve gone from this
86:29
relatively unknown professor in a
86:33
university into
86:33
Anto to being this worldwide figure
86:36
where people you’re obviously your
86:39
message is resonating with people in a
very huge way but the people that are
opposing you they’re vehemently opposed
what do you think that is collectivist
don’t like me collectivists what do you
mean by that
people who think the probably proper
unit of analysis in the world is a
political and B group oriented the
identity politics types don’t like me at
all and they have every reason not to
because I’m not I’m not a fan of
identity politics
I think things that’s why you’re
misrepresented but mentally there’s
other reasons I mean I came out against
this bill in Canada bill C 16 that that
hypothetically purported to do nothing
else but to increase the the domain of
Rights that were applied to transsexual
people but there was a there was plenty
more to that bill man let me tell you
and I read the policy dot the policies
that went along with it and it was a
compelled speech bill and so I opposed
it on the grounds that the politicians
87:36
are not supposed to leap out of their
87:37
proper domain and start to compel speech
87:40
it’s not the same as forbidding hate
87:42
speech I’m I think hate speech should be
87:44
left alone personally for all sorts of
87:46
reasons but to compel the contents of
87:48
speech is a whole new thing it’s never
87:51
been done before in the history of
87:52
British common law English common law
87:53
and it’s actually the Supreme Court in
87:56
the 1940s in the u.s. said that that was
87:58
not to be allowed and so it was a major
88:00
transgression and they said well we’re
88:02
doing it for all the right reasons it’s
88:03
like no no you don’t get it
88:05
you don’t get to compel speech I don’t
88:07
care what your reasons are and why
88:09
should I trust your damn reasons anyways
88:11
what makes you so st. like so that you
88:14
can violate this fundamental principle
88:15
and I should assume that you’re doing it
88:17
for nothing but compassion and that
88:18
you’re wise enough to manage that
88:19
properly it’s like sorry no I read your
88:22
policies I see what you’re up to I don’t
88:24
like the collectivists I think they’re
88:26
unbelievably dangerous and I have reason
88:28
to believe that so I think that when
88:31
push comes to shove if your unit of
88:35
analysis is the group and your worldview
88:37
is one group and its power claims
88:39
against all other groups that that
88:41
that’s not acceptable it’s it’s
88:43
tribalism of the worst form and it lead
88:45
to nothing but mayhem and desire
88:47
and part of the reason you’re doing it
88:48
isn’t because your compassion it’s
88:50
because you’re envious and you don’t
88:51
want to take responsibility for your own
88:52
life and I’m calling you on it and so
88:55
you don’t like me so I must be an
88:56
alright figure I must be a Nazi saying
88:59
your house needs a lot of work man
89:01
there’s a lot of rot in the in the
89:03
floorboards
89:04
the plumbing is leaking the water’s
89:05
coming in you’re not you’re not the sage
89:07
and Saint you think you are there’s so
89:10
much work you have to do on yourself
89:11
that it would damn near kill you to take
89:13
a look at it do everything you honestly
89:15
think that that’s why people are
89:16
responding to you in a negative way that
89:18
they only have their own personal
89:20
problems that they’re avoiding it can’t
89:22
possibly be that you represent to them
89:24
something that is either cruel or
89:30
something that is not compassionate
89:33
about people and their differences and
89:35
their flaws and their their humanity
89:38
because I think it’s certainly the case
89:40
that there the vision that’s been
89:42
generated of me is yeah that’s but
89:44
that’s what I’m getting at oh yeah
89:46
there’s that too but why is layers say
89:48
theirs well part of its the political
89:51
polarization you know at the moment
89:52
we’re viewing almost everything that
89:54
happens in the world through a political
89:56
lens at least the journalists at least
89:58
first of all first of all I gotta make
90:01
this clear
conditions oh no we can’t do that it’s
134:32
like the discussion you guys wanted why
do you continue and agree to have these
conversations that are gonna be edited
oh well that’s a good question the Jim
Jefferies one was another one yeah Jim’s
134:43
a friend of mine but I mean he gave you
134:45
a good question and you actually gave a
134:46
good answer you said actually I’m
134:49
probably wrong about yeah yeah and you
134:50
were talking about whether or not gay
134:52
people should whether someone should be
134:55
forced to bake a cake for cake for gay
134:57
people yeah I said forced to probably
134:59
not they said well what if they don’t
135:00
want to get baked a cake for black
135:02
people yeah and he said well actually
135:05
probably it probably should be forced to
135:07
yeah well probably wrong yeah well I was
135:09
probably wrong in everything I did and
135:11
that in that part of the discussion
135:12
because I hadn’t thought that issue
135:15
through enough to actually give a good
135:16
answer he didn’t expect that issue
135:18
because this is not something you talk
135:19
about commonly no and it’s it’s actually
135:21
complicated right I mean obviously the
135:23
whole I won’t serve you because you’re
135:25
black thing is not good but then again
135:27
you have you also have the right to
135:29
choose who you’re going to affiliate
135:30
with but
135:31
that’s complicated because it’s a
135:32
commercial circumstance and then if
135:33
you’re making a cake is that the same as
135:35
serving or is that compelled speech it’s
135:37
like oh my god these are border cases
135:40
that cause a lot of controversy I don’t
135:42
mean serving black people obviously
135:43
that’s not a border case but these cases
135:45
that caused a lot of controversy is
135:47
where two principles are at odds and it
135:49
isn’t exactly clear where to draw the
135:50
line and I’m not happy with you know I’m
135:53
not happy with my answer to that but I
135:55
hadn’t spent that like week it would
135:57
take to think through the issue and
135:59
really have a comprehensive perspective
136:00
you didn’t expect that to be a subject
136:02
anyway no no what how long did you talk
136:05
to Jim for oh I think about 45 minutes
136:08
maybe an hour first Oh two minutes yeah
136:11
well my daughter has told me and and my
136:14
wife as well my son as well and these
136:16
discussions we’ve been thinking about
136:18
how to handle the media which is a very
complicated question and one hypothesis
being don’t do interviews that will be
edited and I’ve thought about that and
and and and being thinking about it and
that might be the right answer it might
be the right answer going fooling it is
right and well it could it could easily
be although it’s the only way you can’t
be misrepresented just all the problems
that I’ve seen with you all of them come
from you being edited yes I mean there’s
complex subjects that people would
disagree with you on but when you look
at complete mischaracterizations of your
point
these have been established because of
editing yes well I guess the only
counter-argument is this and I mean a
lot of these a lot of these
opportunities come I’ve had
opportunities that are coming at me a
rate at a rate that doesn’t allow me to
think them through as much as I could
optimally but but then there’s another
thing which is it isn’t necessarily a
mistake to lay yourself open to attack
because sometimes it reveals the motives
of the attackers like that’s what
happened in the Kathy Newman interview
no that could have gone really sideways
like I was lucky there to some degree
because she interviewed me for 40
minutes or whatever and something like
that and then they did chop it down to
seven minutes or three minutes and it
was exactly what you’d expect and that
is what I expected after
away from the interview I thought oh my
god they’re just gonna chop this into
reprehensible segments and pillory me
but I walked away from it because there
was 50 other things to do but then it
was so funny because they did do that
and then they put up the whole interview
and the reason they put up the whole
interview was because they thought the
interview went fine it isn’t that they
knew that that was gonna cause commotion
not at all not a bit
he
141:23
journalists I’m certainly not taking
141:24
anywhere near the number of
141:26
opportunities that I have in front of me
141:27
right we are trying to be very careful
in picking and choosing but that doesn’t
always go well and it’s like it could be
that it could be that I shouldn’t do
anything that is edited at all that’s
certainly possible so well this is the
problem you speak in these you speak in
these long-form podcasts and interviews
and you get a chance to extrapolate and
unpack some pretty complicated issues
and compare them to other complicated
issues and try to find meaning and
middle ground and and try to try to
illuminate certain positions when you
expose yourself to editing you you
expose yourself to someone
idea of what the narrative should be and
how to frame your positions in it in and
dishonest way yeah and you’re seeing it
time and time again when it exposes the
142:23
problem with medium look I went to the
142:25
Aspen ideas festival last week which is
142:27
a whole story in and of itself but I was
142:29
interviewed there by a journalist from
142:31
the Atlantic Monthly and it was a
142:33
relatively long form interview I think
142:35
we talked for 40 minutes something like
142:37
that and it’s going to be edited
142:39
now I trusted her I trust her now
142:42
whether that’ll be well how that will
142:44
play out in the final edit I don’t know
142:46
because she won’t be the only one making
142:48
the decision right well the question is
142:50
should have I done it well look it was
142:53
the Aspen ideas festival it’s a
142:54
different audience it’s left-leaning
I thought well maybe I’ll go talk to a
left-leaning audience people are always
criticizing me for not doing that I
usually don’t do it because I don’t get
invited but so I went and talked to them
it’s like and Barry Weiss interviewed me
in front of the Aspen ideas festival and
that was long-form uncut and put on the
web and so maybe that was useful the
Atlantic thing well it might be good
we’ll see it does expose me to the risk
though because it’ll be edited so and it
was it wise to do it
look I’ve been fortunate so far despite
the fact that I’ve been taken out of
context at times and fairly significant
proportion of times but not the
overwhelming majority of times the net
consequence of all of that has been to
143:46
engage more and more people in a complex
143:48
dialogue as far as I can tell so that’s
143:51
the good that’s the good it doesn’t mean
143:54
the strategy that I’ve implemented so
143:56
far is the only strategy that will work
143:58
into the future we can also clearly
144:00
establish it you didn’t planning this to
144:02
happen this this whole thing that
144:04
happened from you opposing that bill and
144:07
then going to where you are how many
you
148:11
know what you’re talking about so you
148:13
take the listeners on a journey right
148:15
it’s an exploratory journey but
148:17
fundamentally what’s propelled you to
148:19
superstardom in some sense is not just
your ability which is non-trivial but
the fact that you’re on this giant
technological wave and you’re one of the
first adopters and I’m in the same
situation we’re first adopters of a
technology that’s as revolutionary as
the Gutenberg printing press and so
that’s all unfolding in real time it’s
like look at what’s happening yeah well
the spoken word is now as powerful as
the written word that’s never happened
before in human history and we’re on the
cutting edge of that for better or worse
that’s a very good way to put it the
spoken word is just power yeah and maybe
even more so why is it so accessible to
people that don’t have the time to read
well or stuck in traffic you know or or
and here’s another possibility maybe ten
times as many people can listen to
complex information as can read complex
information in terms of their ability to
process it sure could easily we don’t
know maybe it’s maybe it’s the same it’s
certainly easier to listen to a book on
tape for me than it is to read a book
yeah well so for us so the question is
for how many people is that true and I
would say it might be true for them for
the majority of people and then people
are doing hybrids you know so because
you can sync your book with audible
right so they’ll read when they have the
time but then when they have found time
which is also a major component of this
that that’s the time when you’re driving
or the time when you’re doing dishes is
now all of a sudden you can educate
yourself during that found time this is
149:40
a big revolution and the band blowing
149:43
out the bandwidth makes a huge
149:44
difference because while we talked about
149:46
that at the beginning looks like people
149:48
are more intelligent than we thought and
149:49
you and I are both and the rest of this
149:51
intellectual dark web that’s kind of
149:53
what unites us say is everybody has an
149:55
independent platform virtually everybody
149:57
they have an idiosyncratic viewpoint
150:00
they’re interested in having discussions
150:02
and pursuing for the furtherance of
150:04
their knowledge even though they might
150:05
have a priori ideological commit
150:07
Sam doesn’t I suppose I do and and Ben
150:09
Shapiro certainly does but they’re still
150:11
interested in having the discussion but
150:14
more importantly they’re capitalizing on
150:16
the long form and and the fact that
150:18
that’s possible is a reflection of this
150:19
technological transformation and the
150:21
technological transfer information might
150:23
be utterly profound it looks like it and
150:27
so that’s you know I’ve been trying to
150:29
sort this out because I keep thinking
150:30
why the hell are these people coming to
150:32
listen to what I’m saying it’s like well

150:33

I’m a guru you know I’m a sage it’s
150:35
something like that it’s like don’t be
150:37
thinking that first think if there’s
150:41
situational determinants first take your
150:43
damn personality out of it okay what’s
150:45
going on oh yes this is all fostered by
150:48
YouTube and fostered by podcasts what’s
150:50
so new about that
150:52
no bandwidth restrictions no barrier to
150:55
entrance possibility of dialog because
150:58
people cut up the YouTube videos into
151:00
chunks and make their own comments on it
151:02
it’s a whole new communication
151:03
technology also a lack of interference
151:06
by executives and producers and all
151:08
these different people that have their
151:09
own bodies unmediated yes unmediated is
151:11
giant yeah yeah well that’s all part of
151:13
the reason you’re so popular too is like
151:15
you just put this on like so you’ve got
151:17
exactly the right balance of competent
151:21
production because there’s nothing
151:23
excess about it like it’s competent but
151:26
no more than that I know that’s by
151:28
design but you also don’t edit it it’s
151:30
like what you see is what you get it’s
151:31
like everyone’s relieved by that we can
151:33
make our own damn decisions no I think
151:35
that’s very important if you’re gonna
151:36
have a conversation with someone that’s
151:38
honest you you can’t decide what to
151:40
leave in and what to take out and it’s
151:43
just well that’s partly also why I deal
151:45
with the press the way I do yeah if I’m
151:47
gonna have a full conversation it’s like
151:48
I’m willing to take the hits yeah and
151:50
and I understand what you’re saying but
151:52
that’s one of the reasons why it
frustrates me so much is that I see what
they’re doing and I’m like what you’re
doing is ancient what you’re doing is
it’s it’s this is what people did twenty
years ago thirty years ago for you can’t
152:03
really do that anymore
152:04
you can’t misrepresent people you used
152:06
to be able to if you were in the press
152:07
you could take people quote amount of
152:09
context do whatever the fuck you wanted
152:11
put an article about them they couldn’t
152:12
do a goddamn thing about it it happened
152:14
to me in nineteen
it was like ninety-nine
I did a I had a comedy CD that came out
and this woman wrote an article about it
and it just she just lied she lied about
my perspective she lied about the bits
she misquoted the bits she didn’t just
paraphrase them
she changed what the bits were to make
them you know misogynist or hateful or
whatever it was and in doing so I that
there was no recourse there was nothing
that I could do about them like wow I’d
never experienced that before I was like
this is stunning and then I found out
this person did that a lot and this is
what she did and there’s ultimate power
that comes at being the person who has
the pen being the person who has the
typewriter and you you’re the person who
works for you know the Boston Globe or
whatever the publication is that that is
something that existed forever you know
and that you had to be either a friend
of the press you had to play ball you
had you had a bend to their will you to
do what they wanted you to do and they
could misrepresent you and choose to
paint you in any way they like and it’s
one of the reasons why I don’t do
anything anymore
I don’t do any interviews anymore I
don’t do anything I don’t want to do
anything yeah this I do enough man you
153:28
want to know about me it fucking there’s
153:29
a thousand podcasts there’s more than a
153:32
thousand there’s I think there’s there’s
153:35
1,100 and there’s a bunch of other ones
153:37
three right let’s just it doesn’t make
153:38
any sense
153:39
yeah well that that’s that that it may
153:41
also be the position that I increasingly
153:43
find myself in I think it’s the right
153:45
position because then the
153:47
misrepresentations don’t exist anymore
153:48
so then the only problem is the dispute
153:50
over the actual ideological
153:52
conversations or the other the actual
153:55
concept but you know the thing is you
153:57
know you made a point there that’s quite
153:58
interesting it’s like we are in a new
154:00
media landscape so now if someone comes
154:02
out as a as a media figure with some
154:06
institutional credibility and
154:09
misrepresents its exposed and so then
154:12
the question is how much risk should use
154:14
shoulder to expose the proclivity for
154:16
media misrepresentation and the answer
154:19
to that might be some now it might be
154:22
moving you know maybe I’ve done enough
154:23
of that I mean it would be easier for me
154:26
in many ways if I just stopped doing it
154:28
but but there’s some utility and having
154:31
it play out and so
154:33
well so I’m trying to get I’m trying to
154:36
only take those opportunities that
154:38
appear to have more benefit than risk
154:41
and when I defining benefit
154:44
well the question is then what
154:46
constitutes benefit and I guess what
154:48
constitutes benefit is well that would
154:52
further the attempts that I’m making to
154:55
bring information to a vast number of
154:57
people that could conceivably help them
154:59
stabilize and improve their individual
155:02
lives that’s worth a certain amount of
155:03
risk
155:04
well it certainly increases your profile
155:06
increases your profile and even if you
155:08
know you have 60% of these people are
155:10
gonna get a bad perception of you 40% of
155:12
these people that never heard of you now
155:14
we’re going to understand who you are
155:15
because they do further investigation
155:16
yeah so there’s some benefit in that but
155:18
the negative I mean I get text messages
155:21
from random people that I was friends
155:22
with years ago let’s say this Jordan
155:24
Peterson is just such a lying sack of
155:26
shit and he’s this not only I don’t even
155:28
know who the fuck you are and then
155:30
second of all like why are you
155:31
contacting me you know I’m saying hi
155:33
you’re saying he’s a scam artist he’s a
155:40
fraud he’s in it and I’m like wow and so
155:43
they’ll see an interview you know like
155:45
the the Jim Jefferies clip which is a
155:47
minute long or whatever it is or the
155:49
Vice piece or the the initial Kathy
155:52
Newman piece and they just form this
155:55
determined position on you and then Reid
155:58
hit pieces on you and then this is where
156:01
they take their opinion this is where
156:03
it’s from it’s and it’s like these are
the last gasps of a dying medium I
really do I just I think too I don’t I
don’t think that people appreciate it I
think the people that are listening to
this that do appreciate long-form
conversations and with all warts and all
all the ugliness and the mistakes and
the critical errors and the the people
that appreciate that they they they have
156:29
a real hate for being lied to you know
156:32
because it’s it it changed when when you
156:35
try never being treated as if they’re
156:37
stupid yes
156:38
yeah which they aren’t yeah that’s both
156:41
it’s just it’s it’s deceptive when you
156:44
when you added someone and take their
156:47
words
to context and change them around you’re
being deceptive the New York Times did
that again this week they had some
philosophy professor from Hong Kong
University write a piece on me and he
took they quoted me it was a sentence
there’s like the first phrase was in
quotes and then there was some joining
words and then the second phrase was in
quotes and there was some joining words
and then the third phrase was in quotes
and the three quotes added up to a
statement that bore no resemblance
whatsoever to what I was saying how can
they do that in the New York Times that
seems to me to be something that should
be the the I don’t but they still I
don’t think they can do I think they’re
killing their brand so fast that they
can’t but it is so disturbing to me as a
157:24
person who’s been a fan of the New York
157:26
Times forever I just don’t understand
157:28
how they could allow that to happen how
157:30
could you allow your what what is the
157:33
gold standard for journalism how could
157:36
you allow it to become something that
157:37
willfully misrepresents someone they
157:39
never did to push an idea I never did
157:41
put my book on the New York Times
157:43
bestseller list it’s quite comical how’s
157:45
that possible oh they have rules which
157:48
they don’t disclose but one of them
157:50
apparently is well if the book is
157:51
published and counted and distributed in
157:53
the United States then it doesn’t count
157:54
even though they’ve had books like that
157:56
on the New York Times bestseller list
157:57
before and I think okay well is this bad
158:00
or good it’s like well it’s bad because
158:02
to the degree that I might want to be on
158:04
the New York Times bestseller list
158:05
although I haven’t been losing any sleep
158:07
over but you’re selling I know how many
158:09
books are selling yeah it’s basically
158:10
being the best-selling book in the world
158:12
since January you know it’s gone up and
158:14
down to some degree but right it should
158:16
be the number one New York Times
158:18
bestseller so they they they have the
158:20
reasons and but I look at that and I
158:22
think oh well you can only do that ten
158:24
times until you’re done like because
158:27
it’s a fatal error
158:27
you have the gold standard for
158:29
measurement you’re not measuring
158:31
properly you’re burning up your brand
158:34
you think well we’re the New York Times
158:35
so we can burn up our brand it’s like no
158:38
you can’t Newsweek is gone Time magazine
158:40
is a shallow is a shell of its former
158:42
self like the big things disappear and
158:46
they disappear when they get crooked and
158:48
ideologically rigid and so that’s what’s
158:51
happening at the New York Times not with
158:53
everyone there but with plenty of them
158:55
and they’ll die faster than people think
158:58
but it’s so confusing to me that
159:00
it didn’t used to be that yeah and now
159:04
it is and are they just responding to
159:06
this new world where you have to have
159:08
clickbait journalism and you know some
159:11
people are struggling to find people to
159:12
actually buy physical newspapers which
159:14
is well it’s a different thing it’s hard
159:16
to say like because maybe see it’s weird
159:18
because you don’t have to resort to
159:20
clickbait because these long-form
159:23
discussions are the antithesis of
159:24
clickbait right are they struggling in
159:27
terms of like how many people buy them
159:29
safer oh absolutely every newspaper the
159:32
newspapers in Canada went cap and hand
159:34
to the federal government for subsidies
159:36
about six months ago because they’re
159:37
dying so fast and so some of it is
159:40
they’re being supplanted by technology
159:42
that’s a huge part of it but as they are
159:44
supplanted they get more desperate they
159:46
publish more polarizing stories that
159:48
works in the short term to garner more
159:50
views but it alienates people from the
159:52
brand and speeds their demise classic
159:54
death spiral of a big of a big
159:56
organization and that’s going to clean
159:59
things out like mad I mean I don’t know
160:00
where CNN is in the Cable News rankings
160:03
now our cable show rankings but it keeps
160:04
falling but it’s falling in the rankings
160:07
as cable itself disintegrates and dies
160:09
why do you need cable TV right
160:12
no one needs cable TV the only people
160:14
who have cable TV are the people who
160:16
haven’t figured out yet that you can
160:18
replace it entirely online for like 1/10
160:20
the price with with much less hassle but
160:22
the art is people want a location they
160:25
can go to to find out what’s going on in
160:26
the world and this is the one thing that
160:28
they used to represent and you know I
160:31
mean I don’t think Fox News is any
160:33
better I think you just have these
160:34
ideological extremes left and right and
160:37
I remember very clearly watching the
160:39
election coverage before the election
160:42
like we were leading up to the election
160:44
I would go Fox News and then I go CNN I
160:46
just would go back and forth with them
160:48
on my cable yeah and I would just be
160:49
laughing I’m like what is really
160:51
happening in the world because I’m
160:53
getting to different stories I’m getting
160:55
Russia and I’m getting Hillary’s emails
160:56
this is I don’t know what the fuck is
160:58
what what is happening I’m getting pussy
161:00
grabbing and I’m getting you know
161:03
Benghazi yeah you know I’m this is what
161:05
I’m getting and I don’t understand like
161:06
why this is obviously ideological this
161:10
is well not just look it might be that
161:11
as the technology is supplanted
161:14
the ideological polarization increases
161:17
as the thing dies right there struggling
161:19
for anyone to pay attention and this is
161:21
the way they have to do it to any shore
161:23
and I think what’s happening on the
161:24
other side which is the side you occupy
161:27
say is that a new technology that’s long
161:29
form that deals with many of those
161:32
problems is emerging and it’s going to
161:33
emerge it’s going to be victorious
161:35
but in the me might already be
161:37
victorious in the meantime little baby
161:39
stuff still exists in the digital world
161:42
yeah you know and then you’re getting a
161:43
lot of the articles that are written
161:45
about you people are absorbing these
161:46
articles not from a physical form you’re
161:48
getting it from from digital yeah well
161:50
okay so then the sense is well do you
161:52
have fundamental trust in the judgment
161:54
of your fellow man let’s say and my
161:57
answer to that is yes because although
161:59
I’ve been pilloried to a great degree by
162:02
the radical types in the commentariat
162:05
and in that classic journalists though
162:09
comments with regards to me on YouTube
162:11
are 50 to 1 in my favor and and that’s
162:15
even the case when the ideologues put up
162:16
videos about me they’re designed to
162:18
discredit me and I’ve sold a million and
162:21
a half books it’s going to be published
162:23
in 40 countries and thousands of people
162:25
are coming to my lectures and so I would
162:27
say the attempts to discredit me aren’t
162:30
working so and now I think that’s
162:34
because that even like even if you go to
162:35
youtube you can see Jordan Peterson
162:38
smashes leftist journalists you know as
162:40
a clickbait thing someone’s taken a
162:41
two-minute clip from a video and they
162:43
put it out and they’re using that
162:44
clickbait headlines to attract attention
162:46
it’s like it does attract attention and
162:48
that probably even furthers polarization
162:50
but I think that most people enough
162:53
people that’s the prayer enough people
162:56
are going for the long form thorough
162:58
discussion so that the sensible will
163:02
will triumph that’s what I’m hoping for
163:05
the sensible will triumph no I agree and
163:07
I think that is what’s happened yeah I
163:09
think that’s why this fifty to one
163:10
number exists is that there but the the
163:13
number one in that 50 the 50 verses you
163:17
know the 50 people that are actually
163:18
understanding what’s going on and
163:20
agreeing with you versus the number one
163:22
that are trying to willfully
163:24
misrepresent you they still exist and
163:25
they’re loud you know they’re and
163:27
they’re
163:27
to be right and this is one of the
163:29
things that people love to do they love
163:31
to fight to be right instead of
163:33
examining their position and wondering
163:34
whether or not they are taking you out
163:36
of context and misrepresenting your
163:38
positions to the world willfully and
163:40
doing so in order to paint a negative
163:43
picture of you that does not accurately
163:45
represent who you are what you stand for
163:47
yes but by doing this virtue without any
163:50
of the work they’re also destroying
163:52
their own credits this is what’s
163:54
devastating it’s like the in they’re
163:55
trying to win they’re killing themselves
163:58
right well and that’s a good that’s a
164:00
good motif for the entire conversation
164:03
it’s like try hard to hard to win you
164:06
kill yourself you were talking last
164:07
night when we were when we were over
164:08
dinner you said that one of the most
164:10
deadly things for a fighter to do is to
164:11
overestimate his own position you’re
164:14
gonna get your abilities yes if you
164:17
overestimate your abilities you you’re
164:18
you’re in deep deep trouble because
164:20
you’re gonna get a wake-up call right
164:22
and objectivity is one of the most
164:24
critical aspects of development you have
164:26
to be you have to be objectively
164:28
assessing your strengths and weaknesses
164:30
at every step of the way that’s brava
164:33
bravado right I’m I’m trying to prove
164:35
how I’m so powerful I’m so powerful it’s
164:37
an ego shield and that’s why I was
164:39
saying that the ego is the enemy were
164:40
talking about right so I get you know I
164:42
want to get into this because this is a
164:44
I think this is a fascinating thing with
164:47
you personally that your diet you’re on
164:51
this carnivore dog yeah no okay so I
164:53
want to preface that with something I am
164:55
NOT a dietary expert so I’m not speaking
164:58
as an uninformed citizen yes well this
165:01
is anecdotal evidence from a human being
165:03
it is dealt with autoimmune issues yes
165:05
their whole life yes you have done this
165:08
for how long now I’ve been on a pure
165:10
carnivore diet for about two months and
165:13
a pretty very very low carb greens only
165:16
modified carnivore diet for about a year
165:20
so in the year and-and-and-and a
165:22
low-carb diet for two years so from the
165:25
time that I’ve known you I’ve known you
165:26
for what two and a half years now
165:27
sometimes yeah yeah when I first met you
165:29
you had much more weight on your body
165:31
yeah you look different yeah and you
165:34
were back then you were eating like the
165:36
standard diet right like normal people
165:38
yes pasta
165:40
bread yeah chicken whatever yes right
165:42
you shifted over to only meat and greens
165:46
I saw you and like you look fantastic
165:48
I’m like what are you doing
165:50
you’re like I changed my diet I only
165:51
meat in green so I was like wow that’s
165:53
fascinating well I felt like okay what
165:56
you’re doing is cutting out refined
165:57
sugars and all these different things
165:59
that are problematic preservatives all
166:01
the bullshit processed foods and you’re
166:04
having this extreme health benefit I was
166:05
like wow that’s really excellent you’re
166:07
showing great discipline then you
166:10
decided to take it to another place and
166:11
cut out the greens you know what was the
166:13
motivation for cutting out the greens
166:15
well all of the motivation for this has
166:17
been my experience with my daughter
166:19
because she has an unbelievably serious
166:21
autoimmune disease I just talked to her
166:22
this what is it called
166:23
well it’s rich arthritis but it there’s
166:26
there’s way more to it than that
166:28
but the arthritis was the major set of
166:30
symptoms she had 40 affected joints and
166:32
she had to have her hip replaced and her
166:34
ankle replaced when she was 15 and 16
166:36
and so she basically hobbled around on
166:38
two broken legs for two years in extreme
166:41
agony and that was just a tiny fraction
166:42
of the whole set of problems I just
166:45
talked to her this morning she’s in
166:47
Chicago looks like she has to have her
166:48
ankle replacement replaced so that’s
166:51
next on the horizon but but apart from
166:54
that she is doing so well now it is
166:55
absolutely beyond comprehension so she’s
166:59
she’s she’s very trim she had a baby but
167:02
she’s very trimmed she’s down to about
167:03
118 pounds she’s about five foot six
167:06
she’s just glowing with health all of
167:09
her autoimmune system symptoms are gone
167:11
all of them and she was also seriously
167:13
depressed like severely depressed way
167:16
worse than you think she couldn’t stay
167:17
awake for more than about six hours
167:19
without taking Ritalin
167:21
and she was dying and hide a cousin my
167:23
cousin’s daughter she died when she was
167:26
thirty from an associated autoimmune
167:28
condition so there’s a fair bit of this
167:30
in our family it was bloody bleak I’ll
167:32
tell you and my wife always had a
167:34
suspicion that this was dietary related
167:37
you know and well we did notice that
167:41
when Michaela was young if she ate
167:43
oranges or strawberries that she’d get a
167:46
rash like there were there were there
167:47
and then when she developed arthritis if
167:50
she ate oranges in particular that would
167:51
definitely cause a flare it was the only
167:53
thing we could see
167:54
the problem is is that in order to
167:56
identify a dietary component the
167:58
response has to be pretty quick after
167:59
you eat the thing like if it’s two days
168:01
later how the hell are you gonna figure
168:02
that out a lot of these responses appear
168:04
to be delayed for four days and last a
168:07
month so good luck figuring that out
168:10
anyways Mikayla noticed about three
168:12
years ago no more than that now five
168:13
years ago she was at Concordia
168:15
University and struggling with her with
168:18
her illness and and all the Association
168:20
associated problems she noticed that
168:22
around exam time she was starting to
168:24
develop real skin problems and my
168:27
cousin’s daughter who I mentioned had
168:29
really bad skin problems and wounds that
168:31
wouldn’t heal and that was partly part
168:32
of the process that eventually killed
168:34
her and she thought oh it must be stress
168:36
and then she thought wait a second I
168:38
really changed my diet when I’m studying
168:40
all I do is eat bagels all I do is eat
168:42
bread sandwiches she thought maybe it’s
168:44
the bread so she cut out gluten first
168:47
and it had a remarkable effect like a
168:50
really remarkable effect and then she
168:53
went on a radical elimination diet all
168:55
the way down to nothing but chicken and
168:57
broccoli and then her symptoms started
168:59
to drop off one by one like and and like
169:02
one of the things that happened is she
169:03
started to wake up in the morning she
169:04
started to be able to stay awake all day
169:06
when you’re only staying awake for six
169:07
hours with riddlin staying awake all day
169:09
that’s like having a life and so a whole
169:12
bunch of things improved then her
169:14
depression went away and I’ve had
169:17
depression since I was 13 probably and
169:19
very severe and I’ve treated at a
169:21
variety of ways some of them quite
169:22
successfully but it’s been a constant
169:24
battle and my father had it and his
169:26
father had it and it’s all just rife in
169:28
my family and my wife has autoimmune
169:31
problems and her niece a depression
169:32
define it oh oh would you define it
169:36
because that’s a word that’s a blanket
169:38
term yeah
169:38
well imagine imagine that you wake up
169:40
and that you remember that all your
169:42
family was killed in a horrible accident
169:43
yesterday you would feel that even
169:45
though the times wrong yes yes
169:47
just-just-just worse than that because
169:50
well one of the things Mikayla told me
169:52
was she thought well what’s it like to
169:53
be depressed
169:54
imagine you have a dog and you really
169:55
loved the dog and then the dog dies and
169:57
then about three years ago our dog died
170:00
and that was Mikayla’s dog and she
170:02
really liked that dog and she said that
170:05
was bad but it’s nowhere near as bad as
170:06
being depressed
170:08
and I asked her to at one point when she
170:09
was about 15 or 16 I said look you’ve
170:12
got a choice kid here’s the choice you
170:14
can either have depression or arthritis
170:16
which one I’ll take the arthritis
170:21
after she’d lost two joints so it was no
170:26
joke it’s no joke man it there isn’t any
170:28
no I wouldn’t say that I wouldn’t say
170:31
there’s nothing worse because worse is a
170:33
very deep hole right but it’s bad yeah
170:35
people prove you wrong right oh yes
170:37
definitely worse worse is a deep hole
170:39
anyways her depression went away all
170:41
these symptoms went away and like
170:43
radically so what changed her from
170:45
chicken and broccoli to carnivore well
170:47
she she kept experimenting and she got
170:51
very sensitive to all sorts of foods in
170:53
the aftermath of that too so this is why
170:55
I wouldn’t recommend that anybody does
170:56
this casually because we don’t
170:57
understand much about it but the upshot
170:59
was that well she kept she kept she kept
171:02
experimenting and she started to add
171:04
things back and take them away and
171:06
sometimes when she added things the
171:07
results were devastating she was like
171:09
done for a month she eats the wrong
171:10
thing done for a month all the symptoms
171:13
came back the depression came back she
171:15
thought that her whole dietary theory
171:16
was wrong because it lasted so long it
171:18
was so extreme and it’s like I took her
171:20
two years to figure out that really what
171:22
she could eat was beef and greens and
171:24
then she figured out that she could only
171:25
eat beef so greens themselves well look
171:29
so what happened okay so two years ago
171:32
she said dad you have tried this diet
171:33
because you have a lot of the same
171:34
symptoms as me now I didn’t have
171:36
arthritis but I had a lot of the other
171:38
symptoms and I thought oh Christ
171:41
okay Mikayla I can try anything for a
171:43
month she said try it for a month I
171:44
thought okay whatever I can hang by my
171:46
fingernails from the windowsill for a
171:48
month it’s like it’s just not that big a
171:50
deal
171:50
and so I eliminated I went on really low
171:54
carb diet okay so this is what happened
171:56
I had gastric reflux disorder and I was
172:00
snoring quite a lot I stopped snoring
172:03
the first week I thought what the hell
172:05
that’s supposed to be associated with
172:07
weight loss because I had gained some
172:09
weight I weighed about 212 pounds and
172:11
I’m I what six one and a half so that
172:12
was my maximum weight I stopped snoring
172:15
which was a great relief to tear me so
172:17
that just quit and that’s a big deal
172:18
right because if you snore you have
172:19
sleep apnea and then you don’t sleep
172:20
right it’s like not a good thing okay
172:22
next I started waking up in the mornings
172:25
I’d never been able to wake up in the
172:27
mornings my whole life I always had to
172:29
stumble to the shower and then maybe I
172:31
could wake up took me an hour and I felt
172:33
terrible and so
172:34
all the sudden I woke up it was like oh
172:36
look at that I’m awake in the morning
172:38
and I’m clear-headed and things aren’t
172:40
gloomy and horrible it’s like well he’s
172:42
not weird then I lost seven pounds the
172:44
first month I thought seven pounds
172:47
that’s a lot in a month and I’d already
172:48
gone for a whole year on a sugar-free
172:50
diet I didn’t lose any weight and I’d be
172:52
the exercise a sugar free but did you
172:53
cut out bread no no it was just no
172:55
desserts no sugar no and I thought that
172:57
might do it didn’t make any difference
172:58
at all seven pounds well then then I
173:02
lost seven pounds the next month then I
173:04
lost seven pounds the next month I lost
173:06
seven pounds every month for seven
173:07
months like I’d throw away all my
173:09
clothes I went back to the same weight
173:10
that I was when I was 26 and my
173:12
psoriasis disappeared and I had floaters
173:15
in my right eye and they cleared up and
173:17
then the last thing that went away from
173:20
me I was still having a bitch of a time
173:21
with mood regulation and that sucked
173:23
because when I changed my diet I didn’t
173:24
respond to antidepressants properly
173:26
anymore they weren’t working and so
173:28
although I was getting better physically
173:30
on a variety of ways like radical ways I
173:33
was really having a bitch of a time
173:35
regulating my mood and I was having
173:36
sporadic really negative reactions to
173:38
food when I ate something I shouldn’t so
173:40
that took about a year and half to clear
173:42
up and I was still really anxious in the
173:44
morning up to three months ago like
173:45
horribly and then it would get better
173:47
all day people said well you’re under a
173:48
lot of stress and I thought yeah yeah
173:50
I’ve been under a lot of stress for like
173:52
ten years it’s like it’s a lot but it
173:54
wasn’t any more stressful than helping
173:56
my daughter deal with her illness that’s
173:58
for sure that no this is something
173:59
different and she said to me quit eating
174:03
greens and I thought oh really
174:04
Jesus Mikayla I’m eating cucumbers
174:07
lettuce broccoli and chicken and beef
174:11
it’s like I have to cut out the goddamn
174:12
greens it’s like try it for a month okay
174:17
within a week I was 25% less anxious in
174:20
the morning within two weeks 75% and
174:23
I’ve been better every single day I’m
174:24
better now probably than I’ve ever been
174:26
in my life and I haven’t been taking
174:27
antidepressants for a whole year so I
174:30
don’t know what and I weigh 162 pounds
174:33
like I have no I’m and I’ve actually
174:36
gained musculature I’ve been doing some
174:38
working out but not a lot and so I can
174:42
sleep six hours a night no problem I
174:44
wake up the morning I’m awake if I take
174:45
a 15 minute nap that used to take me an
174:47
hour to recover for
174:48
that’s gone here’s the coolest thing
174:50
I’ve had gum disease since I was 25
174:53
that’s been serious enough to have I’ve
174:55
had to have minor surgical interventions
174:57
scraping and that sort of thing to keep
174:59
it at bay
174:59
it’s go on I checked with my dentist
175:02
before this last tour no inflammation
175:04
and that’s associated with heart disease
175:06
by the way gum inflammation and
175:08
gingivitis it’s a good risk factor heart
175:10
disease it means the systemic
175:11
inflammation is gone and it’s not
175:13
supposed to happen you’re not supposed
175:15
to recover from gingivitis and my gums
175:17
are in perfect shape it’s like what the
175:19
hell so here’s what happened I lost 50
175:21
pounds it’s like that’s a lot right I’m
175:26
nowhere near as hungry as I used to be
175:27
my appetites probably formed by 70% I
175:30
don’t get blood sugar dysregulation
175:32
problems I need way less sleep I get up
175:36
in the morning and I’m fine I’m not
175:38
anxious I’m not depressed I don’t have
175:39
psoriasis my legs were numb on the sides
175:42
that’s gone I’m certainly intellectually
175:47
at my best at the moment which is a
175:50
great relief especially doing this tour
175:51
depression is gone
175:54
I’m stronger I can swim better and my
176:01
gum disease is gone it’s like what the
176:03
hell and you’ve done you’ve done no
176:05
blood work so you don’t know what your
176:06
lipid lipid profile is or no I’ll get
176:09
that done again when I go back take any
176:10
vitamins no no I eat beef and salt and
176:13
water that’s it and I never cheat ever
176:17
not even a little bit no not soda no
176:19
wine I drink club soda well that’s still
176:23
water well you know when you’re down to
176:26
that level no it’s not Joe there’s
176:28
there’s club soda Joe’s really bubbly
176:31
there’s Perrier which is sort of bubbly
176:33
there’s flat water and there’s hot water
176:34
so that’s crazy well we ate last night
176:40
and I ate what you ate just we both had
176:43
that giant tomahawk yeah I had wine
176:46
though yeah
176:47
I’m curious about this I’m very curious
176:50
and I think you might try it but I eat a
176:53
lot of vegetables yeah but I don’t have
176:54
any problems like health problems hey
176:56
man like I’m not
176:58
disclaimer number two I am not
177:01
recommending this to anyone however I
177:03
have had however I have had many many
177:06
people come up to me on the tour and say
177:09
look I’ve been following your daughter’s
177:10
blog and I’ve lost like a hundred pounds
177:13
I think what you lost a hundred pounds
177:16
see I lost 100 pounds in six months I
177:17
talked to a woman yesterday she lost 15
177:19
pounds in one month she was 70 it’s like
177:22
this is all right here’s a question
177:25
why is everyone fat and stupid that’s a
177:29
question man because it’s new is there
177:32
something else it is it’s new and it’s
177:35
not a sedentary lifestyle that that
177:37
hypothesis doesn’t seem to hold water
177:39
there’s something wrong with the way
177:41
we’re eating and the what’s wrong is
177:43
that we’re eating way too many
177:44
carbohydrates I think but they’re never
177:46
on a no x8 shift the elimination of most
177:49
carbohydrates has made a big shift in my
177:51
life and I do cheat occasionally with
177:54
bread and occasionally with pasta I will
177:57
I will go off with ice cream and things
177:59
along those lines but most of the time
178:02
I’m just eating meat and vegetables most
178:05
of the time and then I have a cheat day
178:07
like you know once a week like yeah
178:09
especially if I go to dinner I’ll have a
178:11
little pasta and it doesn’t seem to mess
178:13
too bad but I do feel shitty after I do
178:16
it it’s like for simple mouth pleasure
178:18
I’m allowing myself to feel tired after
178:21
we’re tired yeah that’s a big one man
178:23
yeah but like I out yeah like well
178:26
really I can’t no and it’s so
178:29
interesting to like I can’t believe I
178:31
can wake up in the morning okay that’s
178:33
never happened to me in my whole life
178:35
and when I was a kid 13 12 I had a bitch
178:38
of a time waking up in the morning it
178:40
was just brutal I just thought that’s
178:42
how it was this is what I mean again I’m
178:44
not a nutritionist either but what’s
178:46
fascinating to me is I haven’t heard any
178:49
negative stories about people doing this
178:50
well I have a negative story okay okay
178:53
one of the things that both Mikayla and
178:56
I noticed was that when we restricted
178:59
our diet and then ate something we
179:01
weren’t supposed to the reaction to
179:03
eating what we weren’t supposed to was
179:04
absolutely catastrophic but it show what
179:07
did you switch to what did you eat
179:09
rather um well the worst response I
179:11
think we’re allergic to or allergic
179:13
whatever the hell this is having an
179:15
inflammatory response to something
179:17
called sulfites and we had some apple
179:19
cider that had sulfites in it and that
179:21
was really not good like I was done for
179:23
a month that was the first time I talked
179:25
to Sam Harris you were done for a month
179:27
oh yeah it took me out for a month it
179:28
was awful real yeah yeah so I would sell
179:31
oh and what so this is right before this
179:32
whole truth conversation with Sam Harris
179:35
at the Guthrie in the mud during during
179:36
it was I think the day I talked to Sam
179:39
was like the worst day of my life not
179:40
because of talking to Sam but it was
179:43
just physical Jesus I was so dead but I
179:45
didn’t want to not do it
179:46
cider like what was his own fights in
179:49
what was it doing there oh it produced
179:52
an overwhelming sense of impending doom
179:55
and I seriously been overwhelming like
179:57
there’s no way I could have lived like
179:59
that if that would have lasted for see
180:01
Mikayla knew by that point that it would
180:03
probably only last a month and I was
180:04
like a month yeah my fucking cider well
180:08
I didn’t sleep that that month I didn’t
180:10
sleep for 25 days I didn’t sleep at all
180:12
I didn’t sleep at all for 25 days how is
180:15
it possible that I’ll tell you how it’s
180:16
possible you lay in bed frozen in
180:20
something approximating terror for eight
180:22
hours and then you get up oh my god oh
180:24
yeah no and this is some fucking cider
180:26
from
180:27
that’s what we thought yeah I mean look
180:29
again I don’t know what the hell I’m
180:32
talking about okay this is all a mystery
180:34
to me
180:35
the fact that my daughter was so sick
180:37
see the one thing that I did know cuz I
180:39
scoured the literature on arthritis when
180:41
she was a kid the scientific literature
180:42
and because we were interested in the
180:44
dietary connection and the only thing I
180:46
could find that was reliable was that if
180:48
people with arthritis fasted their
180:51
symptoms reliably went away and that’s
180:53
actually a well-documented finding but
180:55
then if they started to eat again then
180:57
there were symptoms came back and I
180:59
thought well what the hell does it not
181:01
matter what they eat they can’t be
181:03
reactive to everything it’s like no but
181:07
they can be reactive to almost
181:08
everything and the difference between
181:10
everything and almost everything that’s
181:12
a big difference
181:13
and so Mikayla seems to be maybe me too
181:15
and hammies on the same diet because she
181:18
has autoimmune problems on her side of
181:19
the family so Mikayla seemed to inherit
181:21
all of them your skin looks better old
181:24
Jesus Joe I’m waiting whatever here yeah
181:26
yeah you you you look like more vibrant
181:28
it’s very strange thank you thank you
181:30
welcome
181:31
but the see my point is I you’re saying
181:34
that there’s a there is problems with
181:37
this diet but that doesn’t seem to be a
181:38
problem with a diet seems a problem with
181:40
deviating from the diet your body
181:41
becomes a custom with well one of the
181:43
thighs Isis that we’ve been pursuing and
181:46
there’s some justification for this and
181:47
the scientific literature is that the
181:49
reason that you lay on layers of fat is
181:52
because the fat acts as a buffer between
181:54
you and the toxic things that you’re
181:56
eating because fat is actually an organ
181:58
it has functions other than merely the
181:59
storage of of calories and maybe when
182:02
you strip out that protective layer then
182:05
you’re more sensitive to what you
182:06
shouldn’t be eating this is all
182:08
speculative hypotheses right or maybe
182:10
you sensitize yourself by removing it
182:12
from your constant diet I don’t bloody
182:14
well know well I would think it would be
182:16
much more likely that because you think
182:17
about people who are alcoholics they
182:19
develop a tolerance to alcohol
182:20
you know you get off of that and then
182:22
you have a drink and your tolerances are
182:24
shot and then you immediately have a
182:26
reverse reaction to the alcohol yeah
182:28
same thing with marijuana yeah when
182:30
people do it all the time you your body
182:32
becomes tolerant well I think I think
182:34
that the layering of fat on might be
182:36
part of the tolerance mechanism hmm so
182:39
it’s not merely a matter of
182:40
caloric intake it’s a matter of of toxic
182:43
telluric intake buffered by whatever it
182:45
is that fat is doing as a neuro
182:47
endocrine organ but again like I said I
182:50
said I’m out of my depth here but you
182:52
know the whole everyone’s out of their
182:54
depth the goddamn food pyramid was made
182:56
by the Department of Agriculture not the
182:58
Department of Health it wasn’t
182:59
predicated on any scientific studies
183:01
whatsoever
183:01
we should have we shouldn’t be eating
183:03
massive quantities of corn syrup we we
183:05
way too many carbohydrates Michaela
183:09
posted a paper the other day a doctor
183:11
has successfully treated type 1 diabetes
183:14
with a carnivore diet type 1 not type 2
183:17
so that’s bloody impressive yeah it’s
183:21
it’s very curious to me because you’re
183:24
talking about the one adverse reaction
183:26
which is when you deviated from the diet
183:28
yeah what I’m talking about is when I
183:30
read people’s accounts of trying this
183:33
diet it’s almost universally positive
183:35
you know but again that’s probably and
183:41
it’s the same with all these stories
183:42
that I’m collecting as I’m touring and
183:44
you know people lots of people have come
183:46
up to me and said look I lost 45 pounds
183:48
in the last three months I think yeah I
183:51
think what’s shocking to me I think well
183:53
what do you make of that say well I
183:55
can’t believe it well who can oh I
183:56
couldn’t believe it
183:57
fifty pounds it’s like first of all I
184:00
didn’t know I had fifty pounds to lose
184:01
you know I thought it was maybe 20
184:03
pounds heavier than I should have been
184:04
there should have been 185 something
184:06
like that I guess that’s 25 to 30 pounds
184:09
that was the maximum thought no no I
184:11
lost I meant 162 and I was at 212 so
184:14
what’s that fifty fifty pounds it’s a
184:18
lot of weight Jesus I threw had to throw
184:20
all my clothes away
184:22
it’s I can’t believe it when I saw you
184:24
last night I was like you’re so slim
184:26
like your your stomach is completely
184:28
flat and it’s and this is not a lean
184:31
mean fighting yeah man and you’re not a
184:33
an exercise fanatic it’s not like you’re
184:36
starving yourself it’s not like you know
184:37
and I’m not running 5 that’s another
184:39
thing I should say to people if you want
184:40
to try a diet like this you eat enough
184:43
meat and fat so you were not hungry okay
184:46
you can’t get hungry
184:47
you’re not eating enough if you’re
184:48
hungry and if you’re hungry you’re gonna
184:50
cheat and it’s gonna drive you stark
184:51
raving mad the other thing that was
184:53
really cool is like I really liked
184:54
sweets like I’ve kind of lived on peanut
184:56
butter sandwiches and chocolate milk
184:58
not really but that was my go-to food
185:00
you know both of which were terrible for
185:03
me but after I stopped eating
185:06
carbohydrates for a month the
185:08
carbohydrate cravings went away you know
185:11
last night when we were out for dinner
185:12
somebody ordered bread pudding and I
185:13
bloody love bread pudding with caramel
185:15
and and and ice cream so it was sitting
185:17
there and I could smell it like you know
185:19
I thought I could go all fantastic mr.
185:21
Fox on that bread pudding and just tear
185:24
it down in about 15 seconds but it
185:26
wasn’t it wasn’t as intense as a craving
185:28
for a cigarette if you’re Nick’s
185:29
ex-smoker it was like God be really nice
185:31
to eat that but like my appetite
185:34
declined by about 75% that’s been
185:36
permanent that’s been so there’s a
185:38
perverse thing for you
185:39
I eat way less and now I’m not as hungry
185:42
okay how does that make sense
185:44
well you’re not eating way less you’re
185:46
eating way less thing yes you have 30
185:48
ounce steak last night yes yes I’m doing
185:51
my best not to be hungry although it
185:53
didn’t look like I was 30 no no no
185:55
there’s a small 30 on the steak well I
185:57
think it starts out 30 ounces before
185:59
they cook it right loses a considerable
186:01
right right very fatty right but that’s
186:03
the other thing too you you must have to
186:06
get a lot of fat yeah well I eat fatty
186:08
cuts of steak and yeah Michaela is
186:09
buying fat directly from the butcher
186:12
store and we cooked that up cut it into
186:13
small pieces and fry it up till it’s
186:15
crispy Wow it’s actually quite delicious
186:18
it’s not bread pudding with ice cream
186:20
but it’s not funny
186:21
you mean Dino it’s so ridiculous well I
186:23
wanna I want your blood profile I want
186:25
to find out what’s going on with you
186:27
because one of the big misconceptions
186:29
when it comes to cholesterol and
186:30
saturated fat and food is that if you
186:33
eat dietary cholesterol that it affects
186:35
your
186:35
blood cholesterol levels it’s not it’s a
186:38
super common misconception well those so
186:40
the thing about clinical studies with
186:42
diet are virtually impossible to conduct
186:44
because you just can’t you can’t conduct
186:46
a proper randomly distributed controlled
186:49
experiment it’s too hard so a lot of
186:51
what we’re trying to do is pull out
186:52
information from correlations right you
186:55
can’t do it which is one of the real
186:56
problems with correlating meat with
186:59
cancer and diabetes and all these
187:01
different diseases is because people are
187:02
eating a bunch of shit with that oh yeah
187:04
and they have different lifestyle
187:06
profiles or like there’s just endless
187:07
numbers of confounding variables you
187:10
only need one con founding variable
187:12
that’s that’s relevant to screw up the
187:13
study right you can’t get that
187:15
information with correlational studies
187:17
we try because it’s impossible to do the
187:19
studies but how many people are
187:20
incredulous when they’re honey people
187:22
wouldn’t when they’re hearing about this
187:24
Oh everybody everybody well you or not
187:27
but you know you’re interested in this
187:29
sort of thing but they should be
187:29
incredulous like when people make absurd
187:31
claims is like oh well I had 50 health
187:34
problems and I stopped eating everything
187:35
but meat and they went away it’s like
187:36
whoo sure it’s like yeah well wasn’t you
187:39
dying so yeah and I see the results and
187:44
I know it’s an anecdote I bloody well
187:45
understand that and I’m highly skeptical
187:47
about all of this but I’m telling you so
187:49
that’s why I’m telling you what happened
187:51
to me and what happened to my daughter
187:52
and also what happened to my wife
187:53
because she’s Tammy was always in good
187:55
shape and she’s exercised a lot and she
187:58
reduced to the to the pure carnivore
188:01
died about a month ago she lost like 12
188:04
pounds
188:04
she was already slim she’s back to the
188:06
same weight she was when she was 21
188:09
she’s like 58 you know and she doesn’t
188:13
look 58 I can tell you that so it’s
188:16
really fascinating it’s really
188:18
fascinating because I just I as a person
188:22
who studied diet for many years I would
188:25
assume that you need phytonutrients I
188:27
would assume do you need vitamins
188:29
supplements like vitamin C for example
188:30
turns out if you don’t eat carbohydrates
188:32
you don’t need vitamin C ha who woulda
188:34
guessed how does that work I don’t I
188:37
don’t remember Michaela outlined a paper
188:39
for me
188:39
vitamin C is necessary for carbohydrate
188:41
metabolism but if you don’t if again
188:44
remember everyone listening I am NOT an
188:46
expert in this field right so
188:49
but but I want you to get your blood
188:52
tested because I think if be pretty
188:55
funny if it was in good shape yeah it
188:57
would be I mean I’d like to find out
188:59
what your nutrient levels are and where
189:00
they’re coming yeah I mean what what I’m
189:03
getting a little cramping in my toes
189:05
from time to time so I’m not sure about
189:07
potassium possibility that’s a
189:10
supplement it’s very easy which is why
189:12
I’m concerned but like and also minerals
189:15
you know you know in certain minerals
189:17
you’re getting from vegetables that
189:18
you’re probably not getting yeah well
189:20
this is all like look it seems not hard
189:23
to supplement that stuff though
189:24
colloidal minerals you know there’s some
189:26
mineral pills you could take plenty of
189:28
well there are plants are people who
189:30
basically lived on meat you know the any
189:32
what did the mess I basically did yeah
189:35
there some supplementation but not a lot
189:36
yeah and apparently if you do a
189:39
carnivore diet you’re supposed to eat
189:40
more organ meat and I do some of that
189:42
but not a lot but I can tell you like
189:44
I’m I mean well look I wouldn’t be doing
189:48
this if it wasn’t producing positive
189:49
results yeah it’s not like it’s fun
189:51
running for a while well it makes you a
189:53
social pariah mm-hm like let’s invite
189:56
the Petersons over oh yeah they don’t
189:58
eat anything oh we have other friends
189:59
that’s like well that’s how it works
190:01
it’s not malevolence right it’s just if
190:03
you’re a pain no one invites you out so
190:05
so I’m a social pain and an ideological
190:08
pain and now I’m a nutritional pain
190:10
because there’s no friends how difficult
190:12
is it when you’re trying to get
190:13
breakfast like what do you do when you
190:15
oh well lots of times when we were
190:17
traveling we cook so we’ll usually stay
190:20
in places where you can cook oh okay but
190:22
most places you can get a steak mm-hmm
190:25
and so that’s mostly what we do I’ve
190:26
been traveling in a Motorhome and so
190:28
we’ve been cooking in the Motorhome
190:29
and so not carry beef jerky with me
190:32
which we make what so yeah it’s crazy
190:35
you make your own beef jerky well it’s
190:38
like we have a dehydrator and you just
190:40
basically put salt on and throw in the
190:41
dehydrator so that works pretty well you
190:45
anticipate continuing this well forever
190:48
Cod forevers a long time I’d like to be
190:51
able to eat more things but I’m gonna
190:52
experiment with that very very very very
190:55
very cautiously I’m gonna add mushrooms
190:57
next because maybe I could eat them well
191:00
this is why I’m asking there
191:02
positive benefits that a lot of people
191:04
achieve and and experience when they
191:07
switch to a vegan diet yeah one of the
191:09
things it is is you get off of the
191:10
standard American diet with lots of
191:12
refined sugars and a lot of
191:15
preservatives a little shit and then you
191:18
find positive benefits Chris Kresser has
191:21
gone into depth about this but then over
191:22
time the nutritional bent deficiencies
191:25
in that start to wear on your health yep
191:28
and I’m wondering well it’s certainly
191:32
possible well certainly eventually this
191:34
diet will kill me no life will well
191:38
you’re right
191:39
biology will yes unless so it science
191:42
intervened
191:42
might be that for some people of Megan
191:45
dieters or vegan diet is preferable to a
191:48
standard American diet well for sure to
191:50
a standard American diet but also
191:52
there’s so much biological variability
191:54
yeah you know the things that bothers
191:56
some people don’t bother other people at
191:57
all and that’s that’s something that we
192:00
got to take into consideration yeah well
192:01
that’s why I don’t want to universalize
192:03
from my experience you know but but this
192:05
is what’s happened to me and this is
192:07
what’s happened to my wife and my
192:08
daughter
192:08
so and all of its being well with
192:10
Michaela it’s it’s miraculous I cannot
192:13
believe it the last time I saw it made
192:14
me cry I’ve never seen her look like
192:17
that she looks so good she’s so healthy
192:19
and all her other joints are not
192:21
experiencing any problem and she’s
192:22
taking no immunomodulators at all
192:25
no medication none and she was on him
192:27
fro Jesus yes more medication than you
192:30
can shake a stick at methotrexate which
192:31
is basically they use it to treat cancer
192:34
it’s a it’s a what’s what’s the cancer
192:36
treating drugs called whatever I don’t
192:39
remember at the moment she was on Enbrel
192:42
which really really helped but but later
192:43
opened to bacterial infections so she
192:45
always had pneumonia in the fall but
192:48
envel really helped and then heavy doses
192:52
of antidepressants and Ritalin and Jesus
192:54
how long has she been on this carnivore
192:56
diet oh god she’s only been eating meat
192:59
it’s got to be at least six to eight
193:02
months now Wow and does she get blood
193:06
work done uh yep and her blood work I
193:08
won’t comment on that I don’t know the
193:11
details of her blood work
193:14
I don’t know to answer that hmm it’s
193:17
fascinating I’m curious I’m considering
193:19
trying it for a while the problem is I
193:21
eat so much game meat you know what
193:23
there’s a lot get some fat yeah that’s
193:25
the trick there try it for a month see
193:27
what happens you what the hell a month
193:29
you know just a month ya know a months
193:32
not hard yeah interesting
193:36
all right let’s wrap this up all right
193:38
three hours it’s re 2:20 believe it or
193:40
not hey crazy prison it’s always a
193:42
pleasure great see one thing I want to
193:44
bring up ya for it how weird is this
193:46
whole association to you cuz it’s weird
193:50
to me the IDW yeah oh I D WI yeah
193:54
of course it’s election darkweb it is
193:56
it’s like I’ve been trying to puzzle it
193:58
out I mean I think what it is is a loose
194:01
collection of early adopters of a
194:02
revolutionary technology that’s what it
194:05
looks like to me and and it we found
194:06
each other because we’re all doing the
194:07
same thing but it’s also a bunch of
194:10
people that are honest intellectually
194:11
honest about their and and maybe don’t
194:14
even disagree even agree on folio
194:16
definitely but honest about perceptions
194:18
well and also I think interested in
194:20
long-form discussion yeah right and and
194:22
able to engage in it because otherwise
194:23
we wouldn’t be having the relative
194:25
success that we’re having in the in the
194:27
in the milieu you know and it got a name
194:29
and that’s kind of interesting and
194:31
that’s Eric though yeah that’s right
194:32
that’s Eric yes he loves it most
194:42
interesting about I love to rib him yeah
194:44
well it’s got this funny conspiratorial
194:46
element there that’s sort of true and
194:48
sort of mostly dramatic and was a
194:50
mathematician he’s always looking for
194:52
patterns codes yeah yeah I don’t know
194:55
what to make of it I mean things get a
194:57
name and then you think well why did
194:58
that get named and well someone named it
195:00
but yeah but the name stuck so it seemed
195:02
our proposed is some degree and well
195:04
what do we have in common most of us are
195:07
entrepreneurial most of us have our own
195:08
platform so we can speak independently
195:11
most of us are interested in long-form
195:14
philosophical discussions primarily not
195:16
political but but bordering on political
195:18
well just band’s more political oh yes
195:20
he’s the most yeah but he’s also very
195:22
sophisticated political commentators so
195:24
he borders on both the philosophical and
195:26
the religious yes so
195:28
and then we’re we’re we’re all the newly
195:32
new adopters of this new technology so
195:34
that’s enough to put us in a group and
195:35
then well it turns out that we’ve all
195:37
been talking to each other but part of
195:38
the reason for that is while we’re all
195:40
doing the same thing on the net so it’s
195:42
not surprising that we’re talking to
195:43
each other so I always go for the simple
195:45
explanations first you know it’s not a
195:47
movement exactly what it is it’s the
195:49
manifestation of a new technology and
195:52
then well do we have anything in common
195:53
that’s worth discussing that would make
195:56
this a viable group let’s say and the
195:58
answer to that is I don’t know you know
196:01
I’ve been touring with Ruben that’s been
196:03
good it’s been good to have a comedian
196:04
along and he’s also a good interviewer
196:06
he does the q and a’s with me and it’s
196:09
nice to have some levity in the mix
196:11
because of the conversations are the
196:12
discussions with the audience are very
196:13
serious although I can crack a joke and
196:15
I can’t tell a joke but if something
196:19
funny occurs to be I can say it and
196:22
sometimes it’s funny so that’s something
196:24
you know and we’ve been we’ve been
196:27
discussing a fair bit and I had good
196:29
conversations with Shapiro and Harris
196:30
for that matter so there is lots of
196:32
interplay between us but I think that’s
196:35
more because we we inhabit the same
196:37
technological space more than the same
196:39
ideological space apart from the fact
196:42
that we are actually interested in
196:44
dialogue fundamentally so we’ll see I
196:49
mean I’m watching it with curiosity are
196:53
you apprehensive do you think this is
196:54
sure potential downsides so there’s lots
196:56
of downsides to it sure there’s lots of
196:58
downsides I mean first of all you know
197:01
most of us are on an individual
197:04
individualistic path I’m not come I’m
197:06
not really much of a group guy you know
197:08
so am I in this group it’s like well I’m
197:11
pleased to be associated with you guys
197:13
that’s for sure but I don’t really know
197:16
what it would mean or if it should mean
197:17
anything or if it’ll screw up what I’m
197:18
doing or if it I don’t know anything
197:20
about it
197:21
but mostly I’m curious it’s like huh
197:24
this is a group I thought this is the
197:26
Rat Pack I thought what I walked into
197:28
the restaurant of us because we were out
197:29
last night was Ben Shapiro Sam Harris
197:32
Eric Weinstein Dave Rubin Joe Rogan and
197:35
me right and my wife Tammy and so we’re
197:38
all walking in there and I thought well
197:40
this is kind of like being
197:40
back in the 1950s I thought well I know
197:42
maybe it isn’t but that’s what came to
197:44
mind so I thought that’s funny and it’s
197:46
it’s it’s kind of cool and it’s
197:48
interesting and it’s edgy and all of
197:50
that but I’m not I’m not taking it
197:53
seriously
197:54
I’m not also not you know I’m not taking
197:56
it not seriously either
197:58
but I’m just watching I’m watching
198:00
everybody interact because it is a very
198:01
motley crew of people it is so and
198:04
they’re very different and so but it was
198:07
very much joy thank you okay so why did
198:10
you think it was enjoyable it’s good
198:11
conversation I mean yeah everyone that
198:14
was in that group has been on my podcast
198:15
or I’ve been on theirs and you know it’s
198:18
a fun group of really honest interesting
198:22
people that you Lear very peculiar
198:24
people specially Eric yeah he’s
198:27
listening right now I’m fucking with him
198:28
I love that guy but no I mean they’re
198:30
all it’s there everyone’s different but
198:33
everyone’s also unique and they all
198:34
bring a lot to the table and that’s
198:36
what’s interesting about it you know
198:37
think the weird collection yeah you know
198:40
I I don’t know what to think of it like
198:42
when Eric called me up about the whole
198:44
New York Times thing I’m like what are
198:45
you talking about right like why did you
198:49
do that
198:49
what I do what what did you be part of
198:51
the New York Times article I barely was
198:53
I just answered a couple questions but
198:56
there’s a review you’ve got a picture
198:57
yeah they didn’t direct they didn’t
199:00
obsess they shouldn’t taken a picture of
199:02
me I was dressed like I was going
199:03
onstage at the Comedy Store I didn’t
199:05
wear anything any differently they were
199:06
trying to make a big deal of it I’m like
199:07
look I don’t have any time this you want
199:09
to take a picture means is what I’m
199:10
wearing yeah and and we we did it on the
199:13
parking lot above the Comedy Store and
199:15
started to rain I go we’re done I got to
199:17
go I got to go onstage I can’t be
199:19
soaking wet you know and and then go
199:21
onstage and that was it
199:22
you know it was just okay so your take
199:24
on it is that it’s well it’s in turn is
199:26
its interest yes well this is the this
199:29
is probably another thing that unites
199:31
that group of people everyone in that
199:33
group of people is likely to get in
199:36
trouble because they find you too many
199:37
things interesting
199:39
right and it’s trade openness that’s
199:41
another thing that unites all of us yes
199:42
yeah and so and you know curiosity
199:45
killed the cat and so yeah but we’re not
199:47
cats true curiosity also built the
199:50
pyramids it did it did it and it saved a
199:52
lot of caps too
199:55
let’s end with that all right all right
199:57
Jordan all right pleasure my friend
199:59
chewy again see you always yeah yeah
200:01
that’s it folks see you soon
200:05
[Music]
200:10
[Applause]
200:12
[Music]

The End of White Christian America: A Conversation with E. J. Dionne and Robert P. Jones

91:25
Just two quick points.
One is I think there has been a tension
throughout American history between prophetic religion
and what you could call the alternative.
Liturgically, you could call it law-based.
And the African-American church has always
partaken of the prophetic.
And I’ve always found that you can–
if you’re talking about talking to a Christian,
you know which side they are on by whether they quote Micah,
Isaiah, and Amos or Leviticus.
And whether they–
[LAUGHTER]
–quote– whether they quote the social passages of the New
Testament or the conversion passages of the New Testament.
And I think you saw that in the fight over slavery.
You saw that over social justice issues
in the progressive era in the ’30s.
I mean, you saw it in the Civil Rights years.
I think that’s a deep tension that’s always running
through American religion.
100:21
that obviously, slave owners wanted their slaves
to be Christians, but that they were–
I remember reading this.
I haven’t seen evidence of it.
That they actually had Bibles printed up
for slaves, in which the Bible was printed,
but the Book of Exodus was left out.
Yeah.
Oh, OK.
I’ve heard that, yes.
I want to get that on display somewhere.
I’ve heard that, as well.
And what’s fascinating is how deeply important the book
of Exodus is in every African-American church,
and how central it is African-American preaching,
for obvious reasons.
I mean, “let my people go.”
But yes.
I’m going to try to remember where I have found this
because there were very–
the first slave owners tried to keep the slaves illiterate,
and actually didn’t want them reading the whole Bible
because the Bible is very dangerous.
And there was often a tradition of one slave, at least,
becoming literate.
And the original African-American churches
were in the woods, and they were–
and the slaves were very conscious of those parts
of scripture that pointed to the freedom.
And so I think, in some cases, they were limited Bibles.
But in a lot of cases, the effort
was to keep the slaves illiterate so
that they would only hear the parts,
say, of Saint Paul, that said slaves, obey your masters,
and that sort of thing.
Which was the part that influenced Billy Graham when
he spoke in Moscow— in Russia.
Spoke in Russia, yeah.
Thank you.