Joe Rogan Experience #1139 – Jordan Peterson

45:04
you’ll be able to participate in and if
he’s fun to play with in adults we’ll
teach him things and then he wins at
life and so when you say to your kid it
doesn’t matter whether you win or lose
matters how you play the game what
you’re saying is don’t forget kid that
what you’re trying to do here is to do
well at life and you need to practice
the strategies that enable you to do
well at life well you’re in any specific
game and you never want to compromise
your ability to do well at life for the
sake of winning a single game and
there’s a deep ethic in that and it’s
the ethic of reciprocity in games part
of the reason that we’re so obsessed
with sports is because we like to see
that dramatized you know like the person
we really admire as an athlete isn’t
only the person who wins we don’t like
the narcissistic winners they’re winners
and that’s a plus but if they’re
narcissistic they’re not good team
players they’re only out for themselves
then we think well you’re a winner in
the narrow sense but your character is
suspect you’re no role model even though
you’re a winner and it’s because
we’re looking for something deeper we’re
looking for that the manifestation of
character that allows you to win across
the set of possible games and that’s a
real thing that’s a real ethic it’s a
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fundamental ethic I think what you’re
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pointing out that’s very important is
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we’re we’re searching for the person
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who’s got it all nailed someone who
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tries their hardest but is also honest
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enough about the circumstances to not
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cry foul when it’s gone
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the other person’s way yeah well that’s
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part of resilience that’s right like
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you’re not gonna win it you’re not going
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to you’re not gonna score on every shot
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right it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take
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the shots doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try
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to to hit the goal but part of part of
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being able to continue to take shots is
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to have the strength of character to
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tolerate the fact that that in that
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instance you weren’t on top it’s more
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trivial in games than it is in fights
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and it’s also the response is much more
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negative to the from the fans if you
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lose a fight and complain about it it is
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it’s ruthless there because they
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understand that you’ve made a huge
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character error yeah so why do you think
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it’s more important in fights than it is
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in games why do you think it is because
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the consequences are so grave because
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you recognize that the high is much
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higher and the lows are much lower to
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lose a basketball game sucks but it’s
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nothing like losing a fight there’s no
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comparison it’s not even so what do you
think it is the damages the fighter if
he complains about losing why is that a
mistake why do the fans respond so
negatively to that because they know
they know that you lost they know that
you’re complaining for no reason and
you’re not a hero
they want you to be better than them
they want you to be the person that has
the courage to step into a cage or a
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ring or wherever you with whatever the
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format is you’re competing and to do
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something that’s extremely difficult and
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when you do that they hold you to a
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higher state right to lose with grace
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yes and when you fall especially if you
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were a champion that is one of the most
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disappointing things ever when champion
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complains right and and it is okay so
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response is horrific from the audience
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okay so that’s a great example so let’s
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imagine what does the person who loses
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something important with grace do and
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the answer is fairly straightforward
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accepts the defeat and thinks okay what
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what is it that I have left to improve
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that will decrease the possibility of a
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similar defeat in the future yes right
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soso so what he’s doing is because the
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great athlete and the great person is
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not only someone who’s exceptionally
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skilled at what they do but who’s trying
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to expand their skills at all at all
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times yes and the attempt to expand
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their skills at all times is even more
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important than the fact that they’re
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great to begin with because the
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trajectory is so important more
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important in particular to the audience
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it’s extremely important the audience
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because you are the person who’s
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competing you are expecting them to live
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out this life in a perfect way or in a
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much more powerful way than you’re
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capable yes and so part of that is the
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skill because they put in the practice
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but part of that also is the willingness
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to push the skill farther into new
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domains of development with each action
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and that’s really what people like to
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watch right they don’t like to watch a
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perfect athletic performance they like
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to watch a perfect athletic performance
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that’s pushed into the domain of new
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risk they want to see both at the same
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time you’re really good at what you do
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and you’re getting better okay so you
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lose a match which is not any indication
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that you’re not good at what you do you
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might not be as good as the person who
beat you but if you lose the match and
then whine what you’ve done is sacrifice
the higher order principle of constant
improvement of your own skills yes
because you should be analyzing the loss
and saying the reason I lost insofar as
it’s relevant to this particular time
and place is the insufficiencies I
manifested that defeated me and I need
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to track those insufficiencies so that I
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can rectify them in the future and if
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I’m blaming it on you or the referees or
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the situation that I’m not taking
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responsibility and I’m not pushing
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myself forward and so then you also take
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the meaning out of it like one of the
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things I’ve been doing on my tour people
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are criticizing me to some degree for
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saying things to people that are obvious
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well first of all it’s not like I didn’t
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bloody well know they were obvious when
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I wrote those rulings you were the rules
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in my book for example stand up straight
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with your shoulders back you know treat
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yourself like you’re someone responsible
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for helping it’s like I know perfectly
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well that those can be read as cliches
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the question is cliche let’s say is
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something that’s so true that it’s that
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it’s become that it’s become it’s widely
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accepted by everyone well but we don’t
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know why it’s true anymore and so it’s
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this issue that the issue that we’re
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talking about here or the issue of being
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a good sport we need to figure out why
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that’s true and the reason that it’s
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true is that you’re trying to push your
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development farther than you’ve already
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developed at every point in time and now
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that’s the proper that’s the proper
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moral attitude so
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when you see an athletic performance
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where someone is pushing themselves
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beyond what they are you see someone
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dramatizing the process of proper
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adaptation it isn’t the skill itself
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it’s the extension of the skill when you
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see someone acting like a bad sport then
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they’re sacrificing that and so they’re
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sacrificing the higher for the lower and
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no one likes that in the fights it’s got
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to be see the question is that’s the
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thing I can’t quite figure out is why
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that would be even exaggerated in a
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fight situation and you said it’s
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because the stakes are so high
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yeah the consequences of victory or
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defeat they’re just so much greater
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there’s your your health is on the line
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it’s one of the rare things that you do
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where your health is on the line your
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physical health right so there’s more
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extreme victories and more game defeats
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and so the morality that’s associated
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with defeat is more extreme exactly
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because there’s more on the line and the
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way people treat the champions it’s it’s
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a it’s a very different thing it’s the
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the respect and adulation that a
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champion receives is it’s the pinnacle
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of sports in terms of the the love from
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the audience when someone wins a great
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fight it’s there’s nothing like it and
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this is one of the reasons why these
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people are willing to put their health
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on the line because that high the high
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of victory and it’s not just a victory
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it’s a you know what what is that who
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was it who said the victory is really
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the victory over the lesser you it’s a
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victory it’s always the victory is over
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you’ve got to realize a guy like steep a
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Miocic who defends is heavyweight title
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this weekend in the UFC he is he’s the
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heavyweight champion the world but he’s
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not undefeated he lost in his career
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he’s lost a couple of times and he you
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know as I’m sure he’s lost wrestling
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matches and sparring sessions in the gym
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and all he’s a product of improvement
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right he’s a product of discipline and
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hard work and thinking and strategy and
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constantly improving upon his skills and
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so so in because of that he’s the
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baddest man on the planet so my in my
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book rule for is this is 12 excuse me
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this is from 12 rules for life rule 4 is
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come
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carry yourself to who you were yesterday
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not to who someone else is today yes
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because you need to be you need to have
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a hierarchy of improvement you need to
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be aiming something for something and
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that means you’re going to be lesser
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than people who’ve always already
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attained along that dimension yes and
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that can give rise to envy so the
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question is who should you defeat in the
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final analysis and the answer is you
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should defeat your former self
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you should be constantly trying to do
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that and you’re the right control for
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yourself to because you’re the one who’s
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had all your advantages and
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disadvantages and so if you want to
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compete fairly with someone then you
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should be competing with you and it is
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the case and this is what we were
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talking about – with regards to the self
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improvement of the fighter is well if
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you’re improving yourself then what you
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are doing is competing with your lesser
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self and then you might also ask well
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what is that lesser self and that lesser
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self would be resentful and bitter and
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and aggressive and vengeance seeking and
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all of those things that go along with
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having a negative moral character and
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those are things that interfere with
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your ability to progress as you move
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forward through life so it’s very
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necessary to understand that this is why
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you know I’ve been stressing this idea
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of personal responsibilities like well
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personal responsibility is to compete
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with yourself is to be slightly better
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than yourself the next day and it better
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in some way that you can actually manage
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and that’s humility it’s right like well
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I’m a flawed person and I’ve got all my
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problems could I be as good as person X
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it’s like not the right question the
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right question is could you be slightly
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better tomorrow than you’re currently
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flawed self and the answer to that is if
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you have enough humility to set the bar
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properly low then you could be better
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tomorrow than you are today because what
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you also have to do is you have to say
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well here’s all my flaws and my
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insufficiencies and the best that
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someone that flawed and insufficient
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could do to improve and actually do it
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is this and that’s not worth going out
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in the street and celebrating with
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plaque arts you know it’s like well this
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is why I tell people to clean the room
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it’s not going to brag to someone that
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you did that but someone is insufficient
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as you might be able to manage it and
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that means you actually are on the
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pathway to self improvement and you’re
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transcending your former self and you
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might say well what’s the right way of
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being in the world if there is such a
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thing and it’s not acting according to a
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set of rules
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it’s attempting continually to transcend
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the flawed thing that you currently are
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and what’s so interesting about that is
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that the mean meaning in the meaning in
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life is to be found in that pursuit so
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it’s things are going really badly for
you and that there’s just chance
associated with that sometimes and you
and the people around you are doing
stupid things to make it worse it’s like
okay what have you got under those
circumstances you’ve got the possibility
to slowly raise yourself out of the mire
you’ve got that the possibility to do
just what the fighter does when he’s
defeated which is to say well regardless
of the circumstances that might have led
to my defeat like even if there were
errors on the part of the referee this
is no time to whine about it this is a
time to take stock of what I did wrong
so that I could improve it into the
future and that’s the right attitude you
know in the Old Testament one of the
things that’s really interesting about
the Old Testament stories is in the Old
Testament the Jews keep getting walloped
by God it’s like they struggle up and
make an empire and then they just get
walloped and then it’s all crushed in
there and they’re they’re out of it for
generations and then they struggle back
up and make an empire and then they get
demolished again and it happens over and
over and over and the the attitude of
the Old Testament Hebrews is we must
have made a mistake it’s never to shake
their fist at the sky and curse fate
it’s never that the presupposition is if
things aren’t working out it’s my fault
and that’s a hell of a presupposition
and you might say well of course you
know what’s that that underestimates the
degree to which there’s systemic
oppression etc etc and and the and the
vagaries of fate it’s like it doesn’t
over underestimate it it’s not the point
the point is your best strategic
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position is how am i insufficient and
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how can I rectify that that’s what
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you’ve got and the thing is you are
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insufficient and you could rectify it
both of those are within your grasp if
you aim low enough one of the things why
do you see the that’s another thing you
keep saying aim low enough have a low
enough bar why do you why do you mean
that well let’s say you’ve got a kid and
you want the kid to improve you don’t
set them a bar that’s so high that it’s
impossible for them to attain it you
take a look at the kid and you think
okay this kid’s got this range of skill
here’s a challenge we can throw at him
or her that exceeds their current level
of skill but gives them a
reasonable probability of success and so
like I’m saying it tongue-in-cheek to
some degree you know it’s like but if
you’re but I’m doing it as an aid to
humility it’s like well I don’t know how
to start improving my life someone might
say that and I would say well you’re not
aiming low enough there’s something you
could do that you are regarding is
trivial that that you could do that you
would do that would result in an actual
improvement but it’s not a big enough
improvement for you so you won’t lower
yourself enough to take the opportunity
incremental steps yes and so this is
also what is achieved through exercise
it’s one of the most important well what
do you do when you go and lift weights
you don’t go on like if you haven’t
bench press before you don’t put 400
pounds on the damn bar and drop the and
drop the bar through your skull I know
you think look when I started working
out when I was a kid I was I was wait
about a hundred and thirty pounds and I
was six foot one so thin kid and I
smoked a lot I wasn’t in good shape I
wasn’t in good physical shape and I went
to the gym and it was bloody
embarrassing you know when people would
come over and help me with the goddamn
weights here’s how you’re supposed to
use this you know it was humiliating and
maybe I was pressing 65 pounds or
something at that point you know but
what am I gonna do I’m gonna lift up a
hundred fifty pounds and injure myself
right off the bat no I had to go in
there and strip down and put my skinny
goddamn self in front of the mirror and
think son-of-a-bitch there’s all these
monsters in the gym who’ve been lifting
weights for ten years and I’m struggling
to get 50 pounds off the bar tough luck
for me but I could lift 50 pounds and it
wasn’t fair very long until I could lift
75 and well you know how it goes but and
I never injured myself when I was late
lifting and the reason for that was I
never pushed myself past where I knew I
could go and I pushed myself a lot you
know I gained 35 pounds of muscle in
about three years in University I kind
of had to quit because I was eating so
goddamn much I couldn’t stand it
seething like six meals a day it was
just taking up too much time but there’s
a humility in determining what it is
that the wretched creature that you are
can actually manage aim low and I don’t
mean don’t aim and I don’t mean don’t
aim up but you have to accept the fact
that you can set yourself a goal that
you can attain and there’s not going to
be much glory in it to begin with
because if you’re not in very good shape
the goal
Yuuka day could attain tomorrow isn’t
very glorious but it’s a hell of a lot
better than nothing and it beats the
hell out of bitterness and it’s way
better than blaming someone else it’s
way less dangerous and you could do it
and what’s cool about it there’s a
statement in the New Testament it’s
called the Matthew principle and
economists use it to describe how the
economy in the world works to those who
have everything more will be given from
those who have nothing everything will
be taken it’s like what’s very
pessimistic in some sense because it
means that as you start to fail you fail
more and more rapidly but it also means
that as you start to succeed you succeed
more and more rapidly and so you take an
incremental step and well now you can
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lift 55 pounds instead of 52 point 5
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pounds you think well what the hell is
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that it’s like it’s one step on a very
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long journey and so it’s it and it
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starts to compound on you so a small
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step today means puts you in a position
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to take a slightly bigger step for the
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next day and then that puts you in a
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position to take a slightly bigger step
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the next day and you do that for two or
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three years man you’re starting to
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stride you know what I have so many
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people coming up to me now this is one
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of the things that’s so insanely fun
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about this tour which is so positive
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it’s it brings me to tears regularly
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it’s mind boggling because people come
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up to me and this is happening wherever
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I go now and they say they’re very
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polite when they come and talk to me you
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know and they’re always apologetic for
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interrupting and so it’s never it’s
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that what that means is that these kids
have been educated for twelve years and
no one had ever sat them down and said
okay what the hell are you doing and why
and how are you gonna get like where do
you want to go why do you want to get
there how are you gonna get there
how are you gonna mark your progress
they’ve never walked them through that
exercise you walk people through that
exercise just to get them to do that
increases the probability that they’ll
stay on track by 50% that’s incredible
well it’s one of the things I’ve always
complained about is that they know one
people teach you facts they don’t teach
you how to approach life they don’t
teach you how to think they don’t teach
you how to confront why do the
insecurities and different traps that
your mind will set up for you yeah well
that’s what partly what’s so fun about
doing this lecture tour because that’s
exactly what I’m talking to people about

..

83:28
right I’m transmitting information that
I’ve learned from very very wise people
and so there’s that but also we don’t
want to underestimate the utility of the
technology right because we have this
long-form technology now and it’s
enabling us to have this discussion and
so we can get deeper into things
publicly and socially then we were able
to before and I see this I see this as a
manifestation of that and and as and I’m
hoping too that maybe maybe what’s
happening because we’re gonna have a lot
of adaptation to do in the next 20 years
as things change so rapidly we can
hardly comprehend it and hopefully the
way we’re going to be able to manage
that is to think and hopefully these
long form discussions will provide the
political or provide the public forum
for us to actually think to actually
engage at a deep enough level so we’ll
be able to master the transformations
and I think that’s possible and him
part of the reason that I wrote this
book and well part of the reason that
I’d be doing what I’ve been doing for
84:24
the last thirty years because I really
have believed since nineteen eighty five
something like that that the way out of
political polarization the way out of
the excesses of the right and the left
is through the individual I think the
West got that right the fundamental unit
of measurement is the individual and the
fundamental task of the individual is to
engage in this process of humble
self-improvement I believe that’s the
case and that’s where the meaning is and
that’s where the responsibility is and I
think and I’m hoping that if enough
people in the West and then and then the
rest of the world for that matter but
we’re very polarized in the West right
now if enough people take responsibility
for getting their individual life’s
together then we’ll get wise enough so
we won’t let this process of political
polarization put us back to the same
places that we went so many times in the
20th century I don’t see another
antidote for it it’s not political it’s
ethical this is the message that I
always hear from you and this is you as
a friend this is the you that I
understand but this is not how you’re
commonly represented you are the most
misrepresented person I’ve ever met in
my life
I have never seen someone who has so
much positive that gets ignored and
where people are looking for any little
thing that they could possibly
misrepresent and switch up and change
and I’m kind of stunned by it I mean I
I’m really not sure what it is about you
that’s so polarizing with all these
different people that are deciding that
85:58
you are some sexist transphobic evil
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person that’s this right-wing
86:06
all right the figure you know even to
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the point where it’s it’s it’s kind of
86:14
humorous to me sometimes when I read
86:16
some of these these takes on you what do
86:20
you think that’s from like what what is
86:22
have you this is a new thing for you
86:25
you mean this only been the last few
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years that you’ve gone from this
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relatively unknown professor in a
86:33
university into
86:33
Anto to being this worldwide figure
86:36
where people you’re obviously your
86:39
message is resonating with people in a
very huge way but the people that are
opposing you they’re vehemently opposed
what do you think that is collectivist
don’t like me collectivists what do you
mean by that
people who think the probably proper
unit of analysis in the world is a
political and B group oriented the
identity politics types don’t like me at
all and they have every reason not to
because I’m not I’m not a fan of
identity politics
I think things that’s why you’re
misrepresented but mentally there’s
other reasons I mean I came out against
this bill in Canada bill C 16 that that
hypothetically purported to do nothing
else but to increase the the domain of
Rights that were applied to transsexual
people but there was a there was plenty
more to that bill man let me tell you
and I read the policy dot the policies
that went along with it and it was a
compelled speech bill and so I opposed
it on the grounds that the politicians
87:36
are not supposed to leap out of their
87:37
proper domain and start to compel speech
87:40
it’s not the same as forbidding hate
87:42
speech I’m I think hate speech should be
87:44
left alone personally for all sorts of
87:46
reasons but to compel the contents of
87:48
speech is a whole new thing it’s never
87:51
been done before in the history of
87:52
British common law English common law
87:53
and it’s actually the Supreme Court in
87:56
the 1940s in the u.s. said that that was
87:58
not to be allowed and so it was a major
88:00
transgression and they said well we’re
88:02
doing it for all the right reasons it’s
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like no no you don’t get it
88:05
you don’t get to compel speech I don’t
88:07
care what your reasons are and why
88:09
should I trust your damn reasons anyways
88:11
what makes you so st. like so that you
88:14
can violate this fundamental principle
88:15
and I should assume that you’re doing it
88:17
for nothing but compassion and that
88:18
you’re wise enough to manage that
88:19
properly it’s like sorry no I read your
88:22
policies I see what you’re up to I don’t
88:24
like the collectivists I think they’re
88:26
unbelievably dangerous and I have reason
88:28
to believe that so I think that when
88:31
push comes to shove if your unit of
88:35
analysis is the group and your worldview
88:37
is one group and its power claims
88:39
against all other groups that that
88:41
that’s not acceptable it’s it’s
88:43
tribalism of the worst form and it lead
88:45
to nothing but mayhem and desire
88:47
and part of the reason you’re doing it
88:48
isn’t because your compassion it’s
88:50
because you’re envious and you don’t
88:51
want to take responsibility for your own
88:52
life and I’m calling you on it and so
88:55
you don’t like me so I must be an
88:56
alright figure I must be a Nazi saying
88:59
your house needs a lot of work man
89:01
there’s a lot of rot in the in the
89:03
floorboards
89:04
the plumbing is leaking the water’s
89:05
coming in you’re not you’re not the sage
89:07
and Saint you think you are there’s so
89:10
much work you have to do on yourself
89:11
that it would damn near kill you to take
89:13
a look at it do everything you honestly
89:15
think that that’s why people are
89:16
responding to you in a negative way that
89:18
they only have their own personal
89:20
problems that they’re avoiding it can’t
89:22
possibly be that you represent to them
89:24
something that is either cruel or
89:30
something that is not compassionate
89:33
about people and their differences and
89:35
their flaws and their their humanity
89:38
because I think it’s certainly the case
89:40
that there the vision that’s been
89:42
generated of me is yeah that’s but
89:44
that’s what I’m getting at oh yeah
89:46
there’s that too but why is layers say
89:48
theirs well part of its the political
89:51
polarization you know at the moment
89:52
we’re viewing almost everything that
89:54
happens in the world through a political
89:56
lens at least the journalists at least
89:58
first of all first of all I gotta make
90:01
this clear
conditions oh no we can’t do that it’s
134:32
like the discussion you guys wanted why
do you continue and agree to have these
conversations that are gonna be edited
oh well that’s a good question the Jim
Jefferies one was another one yeah Jim’s
134:43
a friend of mine but I mean he gave you
134:45
a good question and you actually gave a
134:46
good answer you said actually I’m
134:49
probably wrong about yeah yeah and you
134:50
were talking about whether or not gay
134:52
people should whether someone should be
134:55
forced to bake a cake for cake for gay
134:57
people yeah I said forced to probably
134:59
not they said well what if they don’t
135:00
want to get baked a cake for black
135:02
people yeah and he said well actually
135:05
probably it probably should be forced to
135:07
yeah well probably wrong yeah well I was
135:09
probably wrong in everything I did and
135:11
that in that part of the discussion
135:12
because I hadn’t thought that issue
135:15
through enough to actually give a good
135:16
answer he didn’t expect that issue
135:18
because this is not something you talk
135:19
about commonly no and it’s it’s actually
135:21
complicated right I mean obviously the
135:23
whole I won’t serve you because you’re
135:25
black thing is not good but then again
135:27
you have you also have the right to
135:29
choose who you’re going to affiliate
135:30
with but
135:31
that’s complicated because it’s a
135:32
commercial circumstance and then if
135:33
you’re making a cake is that the same as
135:35
serving or is that compelled speech it’s
135:37
like oh my god these are border cases
135:40
that cause a lot of controversy I don’t
135:42
mean serving black people obviously
135:43
that’s not a border case but these cases
135:45
that caused a lot of controversy is
135:47
where two principles are at odds and it
135:49
isn’t exactly clear where to draw the
135:50
line and I’m not happy with you know I’m
135:53
not happy with my answer to that but I
135:55
hadn’t spent that like week it would
135:57
take to think through the issue and
135:59
really have a comprehensive perspective
136:00
you didn’t expect that to be a subject
136:02
anyway no no what how long did you talk
136:05
to Jim for oh I think about 45 minutes
136:08
maybe an hour first Oh two minutes yeah
136:11
well my daughter has told me and and my
136:14
wife as well my son as well and these
136:16
discussions we’ve been thinking about
136:18
how to handle the media which is a very
complicated question and one hypothesis
being don’t do interviews that will be
edited and I’ve thought about that and
and and and being thinking about it and
that might be the right answer it might
be the right answer going fooling it is
right and well it could it could easily
be although it’s the only way you can’t
be misrepresented just all the problems
that I’ve seen with you all of them come
from you being edited yes I mean there’s
complex subjects that people would
disagree with you on but when you look
at complete mischaracterizations of your
point
these have been established because of
editing yes well I guess the only
counter-argument is this and I mean a
lot of these a lot of these
opportunities come I’ve had
opportunities that are coming at me a
rate at a rate that doesn’t allow me to
think them through as much as I could
optimally but but then there’s another
thing which is it isn’t necessarily a
mistake to lay yourself open to attack
because sometimes it reveals the motives
of the attackers like that’s what
happened in the Kathy Newman interview
no that could have gone really sideways
like I was lucky there to some degree
because she interviewed me for 40
minutes or whatever and something like
that and then they did chop it down to
seven minutes or three minutes and it
was exactly what you’d expect and that
is what I expected after
away from the interview I thought oh my
god they’re just gonna chop this into
reprehensible segments and pillory me
but I walked away from it because there
was 50 other things to do but then it
was so funny because they did do that
and then they put up the whole interview
and the reason they put up the whole
interview was because they thought the
interview went fine it isn’t that they
knew that that was gonna cause commotion
not at all not a bit
he
141:23
journalists I’m certainly not taking
141:24
anywhere near the number of
141:26
opportunities that I have in front of me
141:27
right we are trying to be very careful
in picking and choosing but that doesn’t
always go well and it’s like it could be
that it could be that I shouldn’t do
anything that is edited at all that’s
certainly possible so well this is the
problem you speak in these you speak in
these long-form podcasts and interviews
and you get a chance to extrapolate and
unpack some pretty complicated issues
and compare them to other complicated
issues and try to find meaning and
middle ground and and try to try to
illuminate certain positions when you
expose yourself to editing you you
expose yourself to someone
idea of what the narrative should be and
how to frame your positions in it in and
dishonest way yeah and you’re seeing it
time and time again when it exposes the
142:23
problem with medium look I went to the
142:25
Aspen ideas festival last week which is
142:27
a whole story in and of itself but I was
142:29
interviewed there by a journalist from
142:31
the Atlantic Monthly and it was a
142:33
relatively long form interview I think
142:35
we talked for 40 minutes something like
142:37
that and it’s going to be edited
142:39
now I trusted her I trust her now
142:42
whether that’ll be well how that will
142:44
play out in the final edit I don’t know
142:46
because she won’t be the only one making
142:48
the decision right well the question is
142:50
should have I done it well look it was
142:53
the Aspen ideas festival it’s a
142:54
different audience it’s left-leaning
I thought well maybe I’ll go talk to a
left-leaning audience people are always
criticizing me for not doing that I
usually don’t do it because I don’t get
invited but so I went and talked to them
it’s like and Barry Weiss interviewed me
in front of the Aspen ideas festival and
that was long-form uncut and put on the
web and so maybe that was useful the
Atlantic thing well it might be good
we’ll see it does expose me to the risk
though because it’ll be edited so and it
was it wise to do it
look I’ve been fortunate so far despite
the fact that I’ve been taken out of
context at times and fairly significant
proportion of times but not the
overwhelming majority of times the net
consequence of all of that has been to
143:46
engage more and more people in a complex
143:48
dialogue as far as I can tell so that’s
143:51
the good that’s the good it doesn’t mean
143:54
the strategy that I’ve implemented so
143:56
far is the only strategy that will work
143:58
into the future we can also clearly
144:00
establish it you didn’t planning this to
144:02
happen this this whole thing that
144:04
happened from you opposing that bill and
144:07
then going to where you are how many
you
148:11
know what you’re talking about so you
148:13
take the listeners on a journey right
148:15
it’s an exploratory journey but
148:17
fundamentally what’s propelled you to
148:19
superstardom in some sense is not just
your ability which is non-trivial but
the fact that you’re on this giant
technological wave and you’re one of the
first adopters and I’m in the same
situation we’re first adopters of a
technology that’s as revolutionary as
the Gutenberg printing press and so
that’s all unfolding in real time it’s
like look at what’s happening yeah well
the spoken word is now as powerful as
the written word that’s never happened
before in human history and we’re on the
cutting edge of that for better or worse
that’s a very good way to put it the
spoken word is just power yeah and maybe
even more so why is it so accessible to
people that don’t have the time to read
well or stuck in traffic you know or or
and here’s another possibility maybe ten
times as many people can listen to
complex information as can read complex
information in terms of their ability to
process it sure could easily we don’t
know maybe it’s maybe it’s the same it’s
certainly easier to listen to a book on
tape for me than it is to read a book
yeah well so for us so the question is
for how many people is that true and I
would say it might be true for them for
the majority of people and then people
are doing hybrids you know so because
you can sync your book with audible
right so they’ll read when they have the
time but then when they have found time
which is also a major component of this
that that’s the time when you’re driving
or the time when you’re doing dishes is
now all of a sudden you can educate
yourself during that found time this is
149:40
a big revolution and the band blowing
149:43
out the bandwidth makes a huge
149:44
difference because while we talked about
149:46
that at the beginning looks like people
149:48
are more intelligent than we thought and
149:49
you and I are both and the rest of this
149:51
intellectual dark web that’s kind of
149:53
what unites us say is everybody has an
149:55
independent platform virtually everybody
149:57
they have an idiosyncratic viewpoint
150:00
they’re interested in having discussions
150:02
and pursuing for the furtherance of
150:04
their knowledge even though they might
150:05
have a priori ideological commit
150:07
Sam doesn’t I suppose I do and and Ben
150:09
Shapiro certainly does but they’re still
150:11
interested in having the discussion but
150:14
more importantly they’re capitalizing on
150:16
the long form and and the fact that
150:18
that’s possible is a reflection of this
150:19
technological transformation and the
150:21
technological transfer information might
150:23
be utterly profound it looks like it and
150:27
so that’s you know I’ve been trying to
150:29
sort this out because I keep thinking
150:30
why the hell are these people coming to
150:32
listen to what I’m saying it’s like well

150:33

I’m a guru you know I’m a sage it’s
150:35
something like that it’s like don’t be
150:37
thinking that first think if there’s
150:41
situational determinants first take your
150:43
damn personality out of it okay what’s
150:45
going on oh yes this is all fostered by
150:48
YouTube and fostered by podcasts what’s
150:50
so new about that
150:52
no bandwidth restrictions no barrier to
150:55
entrance possibility of dialog because
150:58
people cut up the YouTube videos into
151:00
chunks and make their own comments on it
151:02
it’s a whole new communication
151:03
technology also a lack of interference
151:06
by executives and producers and all
151:08
these different people that have their
151:09
own bodies unmediated yes unmediated is
151:11
giant yeah yeah well that’s all part of
151:13
the reason you’re so popular too is like
151:15
you just put this on like so you’ve got
151:17
exactly the right balance of competent
151:21
production because there’s nothing
151:23
excess about it like it’s competent but
151:26
no more than that I know that’s by
151:28
design but you also don’t edit it it’s
151:30
like what you see is what you get it’s
151:31
like everyone’s relieved by that we can
151:33
make our own damn decisions no I think
151:35
that’s very important if you’re gonna
151:36
have a conversation with someone that’s
151:38
honest you you can’t decide what to
151:40
leave in and what to take out and it’s
151:43
just well that’s partly also why I deal
151:45
with the press the way I do yeah if I’m
151:47
gonna have a full conversation it’s like
151:48
I’m willing to take the hits yeah and
151:50
and I understand what you’re saying but
151:52
that’s one of the reasons why it
frustrates me so much is that I see what
they’re doing and I’m like what you’re
doing is ancient what you’re doing is
it’s it’s this is what people did twenty
years ago thirty years ago for you can’t
152:03
really do that anymore
152:04
you can’t misrepresent people you used
152:06
to be able to if you were in the press
152:07
you could take people quote amount of
152:09
context do whatever the fuck you wanted
152:11
put an article about them they couldn’t
152:12
do a goddamn thing about it it happened
152:14
to me in nineteen
it was like ninety-nine
I did a I had a comedy CD that came out
and this woman wrote an article about it
and it just she just lied she lied about
my perspective she lied about the bits
she misquoted the bits she didn’t just
paraphrase them
she changed what the bits were to make
them you know misogynist or hateful or
whatever it was and in doing so I that
there was no recourse there was nothing
that I could do about them like wow I’d
never experienced that before I was like
this is stunning and then I found out
this person did that a lot and this is
what she did and there’s ultimate power
that comes at being the person who has
the pen being the person who has the
typewriter and you you’re the person who
works for you know the Boston Globe or
whatever the publication is that that is
something that existed forever you know
and that you had to be either a friend
of the press you had to play ball you
had you had a bend to their will you to
do what they wanted you to do and they
could misrepresent you and choose to
paint you in any way they like and it’s
one of the reasons why I don’t do
anything anymore
I don’t do any interviews anymore I
don’t do anything I don’t want to do
anything yeah this I do enough man you
153:28
want to know about me it fucking there’s
153:29
a thousand podcasts there’s more than a
153:32
thousand there’s I think there’s there’s
153:35
1,100 and there’s a bunch of other ones
153:37
three right let’s just it doesn’t make
153:38
any sense
153:39
yeah well that that’s that that it may
153:41
also be the position that I increasingly
153:43
find myself in I think it’s the right
153:45
position because then the
153:47
misrepresentations don’t exist anymore
153:48
so then the only problem is the dispute
153:50
over the actual ideological
153:52
conversations or the other the actual
153:55
concept but you know the thing is you
153:57
know you made a point there that’s quite
153:58
interesting it’s like we are in a new
154:00
media landscape so now if someone comes
154:02
out as a as a media figure with some
154:06
institutional credibility and
154:09
misrepresents its exposed and so then
154:12
the question is how much risk should use
154:14
shoulder to expose the proclivity for
154:16
media misrepresentation and the answer
154:19
to that might be some now it might be
154:22
moving you know maybe I’ve done enough
154:23
of that I mean it would be easier for me
154:26
in many ways if I just stopped doing it
154:28
but but there’s some utility and having
154:31
it play out and so
154:33
well so I’m trying to get I’m trying to
154:36
only take those opportunities that
154:38
appear to have more benefit than risk
154:41
and when I defining benefit
154:44
well the question is then what
154:46
constitutes benefit and I guess what
154:48
constitutes benefit is well that would
154:52
further the attempts that I’m making to
154:55
bring information to a vast number of
154:57
people that could conceivably help them
154:59
stabilize and improve their individual
155:02
lives that’s worth a certain amount of
155:03
risk
155:04
well it certainly increases your profile
155:06
increases your profile and even if you
155:08
know you have 60% of these people are
155:10
gonna get a bad perception of you 40% of
155:12
these people that never heard of you now
155:14
we’re going to understand who you are
155:15
because they do further investigation
155:16
yeah so there’s some benefit in that but
155:18
the negative I mean I get text messages
155:21
from random people that I was friends
155:22
with years ago let’s say this Jordan
155:24
Peterson is just such a lying sack of
155:26
shit and he’s this not only I don’t even
155:28
know who the fuck you are and then
155:30
second of all like why are you
155:31
contacting me you know I’m saying hi
155:33
you’re saying he’s a scam artist he’s a
155:40
fraud he’s in it and I’m like wow and so
155:43
they’ll see an interview you know like
155:45
the the Jim Jefferies clip which is a
155:47
minute long or whatever it is or the
155:49
Vice piece or the the initial Kathy
155:52
Newman piece and they just form this
155:55
determined position on you and then Reid
155:58
hit pieces on you and then this is where
156:01
they take their opinion this is where
156:03
it’s from it’s and it’s like these are
the last gasps of a dying medium I
really do I just I think too I don’t I
don’t think that people appreciate it I
think the people that are listening to
this that do appreciate long-form
conversations and with all warts and all
all the ugliness and the mistakes and
the critical errors and the the people
that appreciate that they they they have
156:29
a real hate for being lied to you know
156:32
because it’s it it changed when when you
156:35
try never being treated as if they’re
156:37
stupid yes
156:38
yeah which they aren’t yeah that’s both
156:41
it’s just it’s it’s deceptive when you
156:44
when you added someone and take their
156:47
words
to context and change them around you’re
being deceptive the New York Times did
that again this week they had some
philosophy professor from Hong Kong
University write a piece on me and he
took they quoted me it was a sentence
there’s like the first phrase was in
quotes and then there was some joining
words and then the second phrase was in
quotes and there was some joining words
and then the third phrase was in quotes
and the three quotes added up to a
statement that bore no resemblance
whatsoever to what I was saying how can
they do that in the New York Times that
seems to me to be something that should
be the the I don’t but they still I
don’t think they can do I think they’re
killing their brand so fast that they
can’t but it is so disturbing to me as a
157:24
person who’s been a fan of the New York
157:26
Times forever I just don’t understand
157:28
how they could allow that to happen how
157:30
could you allow your what what is the
157:33
gold standard for journalism how could
157:36
you allow it to become something that
157:37
willfully misrepresents someone they
157:39
never did to push an idea I never did
157:41
put my book on the New York Times
157:43
bestseller list it’s quite comical how’s
157:45
that possible oh they have rules which
157:48
they don’t disclose but one of them
157:50
apparently is well if the book is
157:51
published and counted and distributed in
157:53
the United States then it doesn’t count
157:54
even though they’ve had books like that
157:56
on the New York Times bestseller list
157:57
before and I think okay well is this bad
158:00
or good it’s like well it’s bad because
158:02
to the degree that I might want to be on
158:04
the New York Times bestseller list
158:05
although I haven’t been losing any sleep
158:07
over but you’re selling I know how many
158:09
books are selling yeah it’s basically
158:10
being the best-selling book in the world
158:12
since January you know it’s gone up and
158:14
down to some degree but right it should
158:16
be the number one New York Times
158:18
bestseller so they they they have the
158:20
reasons and but I look at that and I
158:22
think oh well you can only do that ten
158:24
times until you’re done like because
158:27
it’s a fatal error
158:27
you have the gold standard for
158:29
measurement you’re not measuring
158:31
properly you’re burning up your brand
158:34
you think well we’re the New York Times
158:35
so we can burn up our brand it’s like no
158:38
you can’t Newsweek is gone Time magazine
158:40
is a shallow is a shell of its former
158:42
self like the big things disappear and
158:46
they disappear when they get crooked and
158:48
ideologically rigid and so that’s what’s
158:51
happening at the New York Times not with
158:53
everyone there but with plenty of them
158:55
and they’ll die faster than people think
158:58
but it’s so confusing to me that
159:00
it didn’t used to be that yeah and now
159:04
it is and are they just responding to
159:06
this new world where you have to have
159:08
clickbait journalism and you know some
159:11
people are struggling to find people to
159:12
actually buy physical newspapers which
159:14
is well it’s a different thing it’s hard
159:16
to say like because maybe see it’s weird
159:18
because you don’t have to resort to
159:20
clickbait because these long-form
159:23
discussions are the antithesis of
159:24
clickbait right are they struggling in
159:27
terms of like how many people buy them
159:29
safer oh absolutely every newspaper the
159:32
newspapers in Canada went cap and hand
159:34
to the federal government for subsidies
159:36
about six months ago because they’re
159:37
dying so fast and so some of it is
159:40
they’re being supplanted by technology
159:42
that’s a huge part of it but as they are
159:44
supplanted they get more desperate they
159:46
publish more polarizing stories that
159:48
works in the short term to garner more
159:50
views but it alienates people from the
159:52
brand and speeds their demise classic
159:54
death spiral of a big of a big
159:56
organization and that’s going to clean
159:59
things out like mad I mean I don’t know
160:00
where CNN is in the Cable News rankings
160:03
now our cable show rankings but it keeps
160:04
falling but it’s falling in the rankings
160:07
as cable itself disintegrates and dies
160:09
why do you need cable TV right
160:12
no one needs cable TV the only people
160:14
who have cable TV are the people who
160:16
haven’t figured out yet that you can
160:18
replace it entirely online for like 1/10
160:20
the price with with much less hassle but
160:22
the art is people want a location they
160:25
can go to to find out what’s going on in
160:26
the world and this is the one thing that
160:28
they used to represent and you know I
160:31
mean I don’t think Fox News is any
160:33
better I think you just have these
160:34
ideological extremes left and right and
160:37
I remember very clearly watching the
160:39
election coverage before the election
160:42
like we were leading up to the election
160:44
I would go Fox News and then I go CNN I
160:46
just would go back and forth with them
160:48
on my cable yeah and I would just be
160:49
laughing I’m like what is really
160:51
happening in the world because I’m
160:53
getting to different stories I’m getting
160:55
Russia and I’m getting Hillary’s emails
160:56
this is I don’t know what the fuck is
160:58
what what is happening I’m getting pussy
161:00
grabbing and I’m getting you know
161:03
Benghazi yeah you know I’m this is what
161:05
I’m getting and I don’t understand like
161:06
why this is obviously ideological this
161:10
is well not just look it might be that
161:11
as the technology is supplanted
161:14
the ideological polarization increases
161:17
as the thing dies right there struggling
161:19
for anyone to pay attention and this is
161:21
the way they have to do it to any shore
161:23
and I think what’s happening on the
161:24
other side which is the side you occupy
161:27
say is that a new technology that’s long
161:29
form that deals with many of those
161:32
problems is emerging and it’s going to
161:33
emerge it’s going to be victorious
161:35
but in the me might already be
161:37
victorious in the meantime little baby
161:39
stuff still exists in the digital world
161:42
yeah you know and then you’re getting a
161:43
lot of the articles that are written
161:45
about you people are absorbing these
161:46
articles not from a physical form you’re
161:48
getting it from from digital yeah well
161:50
okay so then the sense is well do you
161:52
have fundamental trust in the judgment
161:54
of your fellow man let’s say and my
161:57
answer to that is yes because although
161:59
I’ve been pilloried to a great degree by
162:02
the radical types in the commentariat
162:05
and in that classic journalists though
162:09
comments with regards to me on YouTube
162:11
are 50 to 1 in my favor and and that’s
162:15
even the case when the ideologues put up
162:16
videos about me they’re designed to
162:18
discredit me and I’ve sold a million and
162:21
a half books it’s going to be published
162:23
in 40 countries and thousands of people
162:25
are coming to my lectures and so I would
162:27
say the attempts to discredit me aren’t
162:30
working so and now I think that’s
162:34
because that even like even if you go to
162:35
youtube you can see Jordan Peterson
162:38
smashes leftist journalists you know as
162:40
a clickbait thing someone’s taken a
162:41
two-minute clip from a video and they
162:43
put it out and they’re using that
162:44
clickbait headlines to attract attention
162:46
it’s like it does attract attention and
162:48
that probably even furthers polarization
162:50
but I think that most people enough
162:53
people that’s the prayer enough people
162:56
are going for the long form thorough
162:58
discussion so that the sensible will
163:02
will triumph that’s what I’m hoping for
163:05
the sensible will triumph no I agree and
163:07
I think that is what’s happened yeah I
163:09
think that’s why this fifty to one
163:10
number exists is that there but the the
163:13
number one in that 50 the 50 verses you
163:17
know the 50 people that are actually
163:18
understanding what’s going on and
163:20
agreeing with you versus the number one
163:22
that are trying to willfully
163:24
misrepresent you they still exist and
163:25
they’re loud you know they’re and
163:27
they’re
163:27
to be right and this is one of the
163:29
things that people love to do they love
163:31
to fight to be right instead of
163:33
examining their position and wondering
163:34
whether or not they are taking you out
163:36
of context and misrepresenting your
163:38
positions to the world willfully and
163:40
doing so in order to paint a negative
163:43
picture of you that does not accurately
163:45
represent who you are what you stand for
163:47
yes but by doing this virtue without any
163:50
of the work they’re also destroying
163:52
their own credits this is what’s
163:54
devastating it’s like the in they’re
163:55
trying to win they’re killing themselves
163:58
right well and that’s a good that’s a
164:00
good motif for the entire conversation
164:03
it’s like try hard to hard to win you
164:06
kill yourself you were talking last
164:07
night when we were when we were over
164:08
dinner you said that one of the most
164:10
deadly things for a fighter to do is to
164:11
overestimate his own position you’re
164:14
gonna get your abilities yes if you
164:17
overestimate your abilities you you’re
164:18
you’re in deep deep trouble because
164:20
you’re gonna get a wake-up call right
164:22
and objectivity is one of the most
164:24
critical aspects of development you have
164:26
to be you have to be objectively
164:28
assessing your strengths and weaknesses
164:30
at every step of the way that’s brava
164:33
bravado right I’m I’m trying to prove
164:35
how I’m so powerful I’m so powerful it’s
164:37
an ego shield and that’s why I was
164:39
saying that the ego is the enemy were
164:40
talking about right so I get you know I
164:42
want to get into this because this is a
164:44
I think this is a fascinating thing with
164:47
you personally that your diet you’re on
164:51
this carnivore dog yeah no okay so I
164:53
want to preface that with something I am
164:55
NOT a dietary expert so I’m not speaking
164:58
as an uninformed citizen yes well this
165:01
is anecdotal evidence from a human being
165:03
it is dealt with autoimmune issues yes
165:05
their whole life yes you have done this
165:08
for how long now I’ve been on a pure
165:10
carnivore diet for about two months and
165:13
a pretty very very low carb greens only
165:16
modified carnivore diet for about a year
165:20
so in the year and-and-and-and a
165:22
low-carb diet for two years so from the
165:25
time that I’ve known you I’ve known you
165:26
for what two and a half years now
165:27
sometimes yeah yeah when I first met you
165:29
you had much more weight on your body
165:31
yeah you look different yeah and you
165:34
were back then you were eating like the
165:36
standard diet right like normal people
165:38
yes pasta
165:40
bread yeah chicken whatever yes right
165:42
you shifted over to only meat and greens
165:46
I saw you and like you look fantastic
165:48
I’m like what are you doing
165:50
you’re like I changed my diet I only
165:51
meat in green so I was like wow that’s
165:53
fascinating well I felt like okay what
165:56
you’re doing is cutting out refined
165:57
sugars and all these different things
165:59
that are problematic preservatives all
166:01
the bullshit processed foods and you’re
166:04
having this extreme health benefit I was
166:05
like wow that’s really excellent you’re
166:07
showing great discipline then you
166:10
decided to take it to another place and
166:11
cut out the greens you know what was the
166:13
motivation for cutting out the greens
166:15
well all of the motivation for this has
166:17
been my experience with my daughter
166:19
because she has an unbelievably serious
166:21
autoimmune disease I just talked to her
166:22
this what is it called
166:23
well it’s rich arthritis but it there’s
166:26
there’s way more to it than that
166:28
but the arthritis was the major set of
166:30
symptoms she had 40 affected joints and
166:32
she had to have her hip replaced and her
166:34
ankle replaced when she was 15 and 16
166:36
and so she basically hobbled around on
166:38
two broken legs for two years in extreme
166:41
agony and that was just a tiny fraction
166:42
of the whole set of problems I just
166:45
talked to her this morning she’s in
166:47
Chicago looks like she has to have her
166:48
ankle replacement replaced so that’s
166:51
next on the horizon but but apart from
166:54
that she is doing so well now it is
166:55
absolutely beyond comprehension so she’s
166:59
she’s she’s very trim she had a baby but
167:02
she’s very trimmed she’s down to about
167:03
118 pounds she’s about five foot six
167:06
she’s just glowing with health all of
167:09
her autoimmune system symptoms are gone
167:11
all of them and she was also seriously
167:13
depressed like severely depressed way
167:16
worse than you think she couldn’t stay
167:17
awake for more than about six hours
167:19
without taking Ritalin
167:21
and she was dying and hide a cousin my
167:23
cousin’s daughter she died when she was
167:26
thirty from an associated autoimmune
167:28
condition so there’s a fair bit of this
167:30
in our family it was bloody bleak I’ll
167:32
tell you and my wife always had a
167:34
suspicion that this was dietary related
167:37
you know and well we did notice that
167:41
when Michaela was young if she ate
167:43
oranges or strawberries that she’d get a
167:46
rash like there were there were there
167:47
and then when she developed arthritis if
167:50
she ate oranges in particular that would
167:51
definitely cause a flare it was the only
167:53
thing we could see
167:54
the problem is is that in order to
167:56
identify a dietary component the
167:58
response has to be pretty quick after
167:59
you eat the thing like if it’s two days
168:01
later how the hell are you gonna figure
168:02
that out a lot of these responses appear
168:04
to be delayed for four days and last a
168:07
month so good luck figuring that out
168:10
anyways Mikayla noticed about three
168:12
years ago no more than that now five
168:13
years ago she was at Concordia
168:15
University and struggling with her with
168:18
her illness and and all the Association
168:20
associated problems she noticed that
168:22
around exam time she was starting to
168:24
develop real skin problems and my
168:27
cousin’s daughter who I mentioned had
168:29
really bad skin problems and wounds that
168:31
wouldn’t heal and that was partly part
168:32
of the process that eventually killed
168:34
her and she thought oh it must be stress
168:36
and then she thought wait a second I
168:38
really changed my diet when I’m studying
168:40
all I do is eat bagels all I do is eat
168:42
bread sandwiches she thought maybe it’s
168:44
the bread so she cut out gluten first
168:47
and it had a remarkable effect like a
168:50
really remarkable effect and then she
168:53
went on a radical elimination diet all
168:55
the way down to nothing but chicken and
168:57
broccoli and then her symptoms started
168:59
to drop off one by one like and and like
169:02
one of the things that happened is she
169:03
started to wake up in the morning she
169:04
started to be able to stay awake all day
169:06
when you’re only staying awake for six
169:07
hours with riddlin staying awake all day
169:09
that’s like having a life and so a whole
169:12
bunch of things improved then her
169:14
depression went away and I’ve had
169:17
depression since I was 13 probably and
169:19
very severe and I’ve treated at a
169:21
variety of ways some of them quite
169:22
successfully but it’s been a constant
169:24
battle and my father had it and his
169:26
father had it and it’s all just rife in
169:28
my family and my wife has autoimmune
169:31
problems and her niece a depression
169:32
define it oh oh would you define it
169:36
because that’s a word that’s a blanket
169:38
term yeah
169:38
well imagine imagine that you wake up
169:40
and that you remember that all your
169:42
family was killed in a horrible accident
169:43
yesterday you would feel that even
169:45
though the times wrong yes yes
169:47
just-just-just worse than that because
169:50
well one of the things Mikayla told me
169:52
was she thought well what’s it like to
169:53
be depressed
169:54
imagine you have a dog and you really
169:55
loved the dog and then the dog dies and
169:57
then about three years ago our dog died
170:00
and that was Mikayla’s dog and she
170:02
really liked that dog and she said that
170:05
was bad but it’s nowhere near as bad as
170:06
being depressed
170:08
and I asked her to at one point when she
170:09
was about 15 or 16 I said look you’ve
170:12
got a choice kid here’s the choice you
170:14
can either have depression or arthritis
170:16
which one I’ll take the arthritis
170:21
after she’d lost two joints so it was no
170:26
joke it’s no joke man it there isn’t any
170:28
no I wouldn’t say that I wouldn’t say
170:31
there’s nothing worse because worse is a
170:33
very deep hole right but it’s bad yeah
170:35
people prove you wrong right oh yes
170:37
definitely worse worse is a deep hole
170:39
anyways her depression went away all
170:41
these symptoms went away and like
170:43
radically so what changed her from
170:45
chicken and broccoli to carnivore well
170:47
she she kept experimenting and she got
170:51
very sensitive to all sorts of foods in
170:53
the aftermath of that too so this is why
170:55
I wouldn’t recommend that anybody does
170:56
this casually because we don’t
170:57
understand much about it but the upshot
170:59
was that well she kept she kept she kept
171:02
experimenting and she started to add
171:04
things back and take them away and
171:06
sometimes when she added things the
171:07
results were devastating she was like
171:09
done for a month she eats the wrong
171:10
thing done for a month all the symptoms
171:13
came back the depression came back she
171:15
thought that her whole dietary theory
171:16
was wrong because it lasted so long it
171:18
was so extreme and it’s like I took her
171:20
two years to figure out that really what
171:22
she could eat was beef and greens and
171:24
then she figured out that she could only
171:25
eat beef so greens themselves well look
171:29
so what happened okay so two years ago
171:32
she said dad you have tried this diet
171:33
because you have a lot of the same
171:34
symptoms as me now I didn’t have
171:36
arthritis but I had a lot of the other
171:38
symptoms and I thought oh Christ
171:41
okay Mikayla I can try anything for a
171:43
month she said try it for a month I
171:44
thought okay whatever I can hang by my
171:46
fingernails from the windowsill for a
171:48
month it’s like it’s just not that big a
171:50
deal
171:50
and so I eliminated I went on really low
171:54
carb diet okay so this is what happened
171:56
I had gastric reflux disorder and I was
172:00
snoring quite a lot I stopped snoring
172:03
the first week I thought what the hell
172:05
that’s supposed to be associated with
172:07
weight loss because I had gained some
172:09
weight I weighed about 212 pounds and
172:11
I’m I what six one and a half so that
172:12
was my maximum weight I stopped snoring
172:15
which was a great relief to tear me so
172:17
that just quit and that’s a big deal
172:18
right because if you snore you have
172:19
sleep apnea and then you don’t sleep
172:20
right it’s like not a good thing okay
172:22
next I started waking up in the mornings
172:25
I’d never been able to wake up in the
172:27
mornings my whole life I always had to
172:29
stumble to the shower and then maybe I
172:31
could wake up took me an hour and I felt
172:33
terrible and so
172:34
all the sudden I woke up it was like oh
172:36
look at that I’m awake in the morning
172:38
and I’m clear-headed and things aren’t
172:40
gloomy and horrible it’s like well he’s
172:42
not weird then I lost seven pounds the
172:44
first month I thought seven pounds
172:47
that’s a lot in a month and I’d already
172:48
gone for a whole year on a sugar-free
172:50
diet I didn’t lose any weight and I’d be
172:52
the exercise a sugar free but did you
172:53
cut out bread no no it was just no
172:55
desserts no sugar no and I thought that
172:57
might do it didn’t make any difference
172:58
at all seven pounds well then then I
173:02
lost seven pounds the next month then I
173:04
lost seven pounds the next month I lost
173:06
seven pounds every month for seven
173:07
months like I’d throw away all my
173:09
clothes I went back to the same weight
173:10
that I was when I was 26 and my
173:12
psoriasis disappeared and I had floaters
173:15
in my right eye and they cleared up and
173:17
then the last thing that went away from
173:20
me I was still having a bitch of a time
173:21
with mood regulation and that sucked
173:23
because when I changed my diet I didn’t
173:24
respond to antidepressants properly
173:26
anymore they weren’t working and so
173:28
although I was getting better physically
173:30
on a variety of ways like radical ways I
173:33
was really having a bitch of a time
173:35
regulating my mood and I was having
173:36
sporadic really negative reactions to
173:38
food when I ate something I shouldn’t so
173:40
that took about a year and half to clear
173:42
up and I was still really anxious in the
173:44
morning up to three months ago like
173:45
horribly and then it would get better
173:47
all day people said well you’re under a
173:48
lot of stress and I thought yeah yeah
173:50
I’ve been under a lot of stress for like
173:52
ten years it’s like it’s a lot but it
173:54
wasn’t any more stressful than helping
173:56
my daughter deal with her illness that’s
173:58
for sure that no this is something
173:59
different and she said to me quit eating
174:03
greens and I thought oh really
174:04
Jesus Mikayla I’m eating cucumbers
174:07
lettuce broccoli and chicken and beef
174:11
it’s like I have to cut out the goddamn
174:12
greens it’s like try it for a month okay
174:17
within a week I was 25% less anxious in
174:20
the morning within two weeks 75% and
174:23
I’ve been better every single day I’m
174:24
better now probably than I’ve ever been
174:26
in my life and I haven’t been taking
174:27
antidepressants for a whole year so I
174:30
don’t know what and I weigh 162 pounds
174:33
like I have no I’m and I’ve actually
174:36
gained musculature I’ve been doing some
174:38
working out but not a lot and so I can
174:42
sleep six hours a night no problem I
174:44
wake up the morning I’m awake if I take
174:45
a 15 minute nap that used to take me an
174:47
hour to recover for
174:48
that’s gone here’s the coolest thing
174:50
I’ve had gum disease since I was 25
174:53
that’s been serious enough to have I’ve
174:55
had to have minor surgical interventions
174:57
scraping and that sort of thing to keep
174:59
it at bay
174:59
it’s go on I checked with my dentist
175:02
before this last tour no inflammation
175:04
and that’s associated with heart disease
175:06
by the way gum inflammation and
175:08
gingivitis it’s a good risk factor heart
175:10
disease it means the systemic
175:11
inflammation is gone and it’s not
175:13
supposed to happen you’re not supposed
175:15
to recover from gingivitis and my gums
175:17
are in perfect shape it’s like what the
175:19
hell so here’s what happened I lost 50
175:21
pounds it’s like that’s a lot right I’m
175:26
nowhere near as hungry as I used to be
175:27
my appetites probably formed by 70% I
175:30
don’t get blood sugar dysregulation
175:32
problems I need way less sleep I get up
175:36
in the morning and I’m fine I’m not
175:38
anxious I’m not depressed I don’t have
175:39
psoriasis my legs were numb on the sides
175:42
that’s gone I’m certainly intellectually
175:47
at my best at the moment which is a
175:50
great relief especially doing this tour
175:51
depression is gone
175:54
I’m stronger I can swim better and my
176:01
gum disease is gone it’s like what the
176:03
hell and you’ve done you’ve done no
176:05
blood work so you don’t know what your
176:06
lipid lipid profile is or no I’ll get
176:09
that done again when I go back take any
176:10
vitamins no no I eat beef and salt and
176:13
water that’s it and I never cheat ever
176:17
not even a little bit no not soda no
176:19
wine I drink club soda well that’s still
176:23
water well you know when you’re down to
176:26
that level no it’s not Joe there’s
176:28
there’s club soda Joe’s really bubbly
176:31
there’s Perrier which is sort of bubbly
176:33
there’s flat water and there’s hot water
176:34
so that’s crazy well we ate last night
176:40
and I ate what you ate just we both had
176:43
that giant tomahawk yeah I had wine
176:46
though yeah
176:47
I’m curious about this I’m very curious
176:50
and I think you might try it but I eat a
176:53
lot of vegetables yeah but I don’t have
176:54
any problems like health problems hey
176:56
man like I’m not
176:58
disclaimer number two I am not
177:01
recommending this to anyone however I
177:03
have had however I have had many many
177:06
people come up to me on the tour and say
177:09
look I’ve been following your daughter’s
177:10
blog and I’ve lost like a hundred pounds
177:13
I think what you lost a hundred pounds
177:16
see I lost 100 pounds in six months I
177:17
talked to a woman yesterday she lost 15
177:19
pounds in one month she was 70 it’s like
177:22
this is all right here’s a question
177:25
why is everyone fat and stupid that’s a
177:29
question man because it’s new is there
177:32
something else it is it’s new and it’s
177:35
not a sedentary lifestyle that that
177:37
hypothesis doesn’t seem to hold water
177:39
there’s something wrong with the way
177:41
we’re eating and the what’s wrong is
177:43
that we’re eating way too many
177:44
carbohydrates I think but they’re never
177:46
on a no x8 shift the elimination of most
177:49
carbohydrates has made a big shift in my
177:51
life and I do cheat occasionally with
177:54
bread and occasionally with pasta I will
177:57
I will go off with ice cream and things
177:59
along those lines but most of the time
178:02
I’m just eating meat and vegetables most
178:05
of the time and then I have a cheat day
178:07
like you know once a week like yeah
178:09
especially if I go to dinner I’ll have a
178:11
little pasta and it doesn’t seem to mess
178:13
too bad but I do feel shitty after I do
178:16
it it’s like for simple mouth pleasure
178:18
I’m allowing myself to feel tired after
178:21
we’re tired yeah that’s a big one man
178:23
yeah but like I out yeah like well
178:26
really I can’t no and it’s so
178:29
interesting to like I can’t believe I
178:31
can wake up in the morning okay that’s
178:33
never happened to me in my whole life
178:35
and when I was a kid 13 12 I had a bitch
178:38
of a time waking up in the morning it
178:40
was just brutal I just thought that’s
178:42
how it was this is what I mean again I’m
178:44
not a nutritionist either but what’s
178:46
fascinating to me is I haven’t heard any
178:49
negative stories about people doing this
178:50
well I have a negative story okay okay
178:53
one of the things that both Mikayla and
178:56
I noticed was that when we restricted
178:59
our diet and then ate something we
179:01
weren’t supposed to the reaction to
179:03
eating what we weren’t supposed to was
179:04
absolutely catastrophic but it show what
179:07
did you switch to what did you eat
179:09
rather um well the worst response I
179:11
think we’re allergic to or allergic
179:13
whatever the hell this is having an
179:15
inflammatory response to something
179:17
called sulfites and we had some apple
179:19
cider that had sulfites in it and that
179:21
was really not good like I was done for
179:23
a month that was the first time I talked
179:25
to Sam Harris you were done for a month
179:27
oh yeah it took me out for a month it
179:28
was awful real yeah yeah so I would sell
179:31
oh and what so this is right before this
179:32
whole truth conversation with Sam Harris
179:35
at the Guthrie in the mud during during
179:36
it was I think the day I talked to Sam
179:39
was like the worst day of my life not
179:40
because of talking to Sam but it was
179:43
just physical Jesus I was so dead but I
179:45
didn’t want to not do it
179:46
cider like what was his own fights in
179:49
what was it doing there oh it produced
179:52
an overwhelming sense of impending doom
179:55
and I seriously been overwhelming like
179:57
there’s no way I could have lived like
179:59
that if that would have lasted for see
180:01
Mikayla knew by that point that it would
180:03
probably only last a month and I was
180:04
like a month yeah my fucking cider well
180:08
I didn’t sleep that that month I didn’t
180:10
sleep for 25 days I didn’t sleep at all
180:12
I didn’t sleep at all for 25 days how is
180:15
it possible that I’ll tell you how it’s
180:16
possible you lay in bed frozen in
180:20
something approximating terror for eight
180:22
hours and then you get up oh my god oh
180:24
yeah no and this is some fucking cider
180:26
from
180:27
that’s what we thought yeah I mean look
180:29
again I don’t know what the hell I’m
180:32
talking about okay this is all a mystery
180:34
to me
180:35
the fact that my daughter was so sick
180:37
see the one thing that I did know cuz I
180:39
scoured the literature on arthritis when
180:41
she was a kid the scientific literature
180:42
and because we were interested in the
180:44
dietary connection and the only thing I
180:46
could find that was reliable was that if
180:48
people with arthritis fasted their
180:51
symptoms reliably went away and that’s
180:53
actually a well-documented finding but
180:55
then if they started to eat again then
180:57
there were symptoms came back and I
180:59
thought well what the hell does it not
181:01
matter what they eat they can’t be
181:03
reactive to everything it’s like no but
181:07
they can be reactive to almost
181:08
everything and the difference between
181:10
everything and almost everything that’s
181:12
a big difference
181:13
and so Mikayla seems to be maybe me too
181:15
and hammies on the same diet because she
181:18
has autoimmune problems on her side of
181:19
the family so Mikayla seemed to inherit
181:21
all of them your skin looks better old
181:24
Jesus Joe I’m waiting whatever here yeah
181:26
yeah you you you look like more vibrant
181:28
it’s very strange thank you thank you
181:30
welcome
181:31
but the see my point is I you’re saying
181:34
that there’s a there is problems with
181:37
this diet but that doesn’t seem to be a
181:38
problem with a diet seems a problem with
181:40
deviating from the diet your body
181:41
becomes a custom with well one of the
181:43
thighs Isis that we’ve been pursuing and
181:46
there’s some justification for this and
181:47
the scientific literature is that the
181:49
reason that you lay on layers of fat is
181:52
because the fat acts as a buffer between
181:54
you and the toxic things that you’re
181:56
eating because fat is actually an organ
181:58
it has functions other than merely the
181:59
storage of of calories and maybe when
182:02
you strip out that protective layer then
182:05
you’re more sensitive to what you
182:06
shouldn’t be eating this is all
182:08
speculative hypotheses right or maybe
182:10
you sensitize yourself by removing it
182:12
from your constant diet I don’t bloody
182:14
well know well I would think it would be
182:16
much more likely that because you think
182:17
about people who are alcoholics they
182:19
develop a tolerance to alcohol
182:20
you know you get off of that and then
182:22
you have a drink and your tolerances are
182:24
shot and then you immediately have a
182:26
reverse reaction to the alcohol yeah
182:28
same thing with marijuana yeah when
182:30
people do it all the time you your body
182:32
becomes tolerant well I think I think
182:34
that the layering of fat on might be
182:36
part of the tolerance mechanism hmm so
182:39
it’s not merely a matter of
182:40
caloric intake it’s a matter of of toxic
182:43
telluric intake buffered by whatever it
182:45
is that fat is doing as a neuro
182:47
endocrine organ but again like I said I
182:50
said I’m out of my depth here but you
182:52
know the whole everyone’s out of their
182:54
depth the goddamn food pyramid was made
182:56
by the Department of Agriculture not the
182:58
Department of Health it wasn’t
182:59
predicated on any scientific studies
183:01
whatsoever
183:01
we should have we shouldn’t be eating
183:03
massive quantities of corn syrup we we
183:05
way too many carbohydrates Michaela
183:09
posted a paper the other day a doctor
183:11
has successfully treated type 1 diabetes
183:14
with a carnivore diet type 1 not type 2
183:17
so that’s bloody impressive yeah it’s
183:21
it’s very curious to me because you’re
183:24
talking about the one adverse reaction
183:26
which is when you deviated from the diet
183:28
yeah what I’m talking about is when I
183:30
read people’s accounts of trying this
183:33
diet it’s almost universally positive
183:35
you know but again that’s probably and
183:41
it’s the same with all these stories
183:42
that I’m collecting as I’m touring and
183:44
you know people lots of people have come
183:46
up to me and said look I lost 45 pounds
183:48
in the last three months I think yeah I
183:51
think what’s shocking to me I think well
183:53
what do you make of that say well I
183:55
can’t believe it well who can oh I
183:56
couldn’t believe it
183:57
fifty pounds it’s like first of all I
184:00
didn’t know I had fifty pounds to lose
184:01
you know I thought it was maybe 20
184:03
pounds heavier than I should have been
184:04
there should have been 185 something
184:06
like that I guess that’s 25 to 30 pounds
184:09
that was the maximum thought no no I
184:11
lost I meant 162 and I was at 212 so
184:14
what’s that fifty fifty pounds it’s a
184:18
lot of weight Jesus I threw had to throw
184:20
all my clothes away
184:22
it’s I can’t believe it when I saw you
184:24
last night I was like you’re so slim
184:26
like your your stomach is completely
184:28
flat and it’s and this is not a lean
184:31
mean fighting yeah man and you’re not a
184:33
an exercise fanatic it’s not like you’re
184:36
starving yourself it’s not like you know
184:37
and I’m not running 5 that’s another
184:39
thing I should say to people if you want
184:40
to try a diet like this you eat enough
184:43
meat and fat so you were not hungry okay
184:46
you can’t get hungry
184:47
you’re not eating enough if you’re
184:48
hungry and if you’re hungry you’re gonna
184:50
cheat and it’s gonna drive you stark
184:51
raving mad the other thing that was
184:53
really cool is like I really liked
184:54
sweets like I’ve kind of lived on peanut
184:56
butter sandwiches and chocolate milk
184:58
not really but that was my go-to food
185:00
you know both of which were terrible for
185:03
me but after I stopped eating
185:06
carbohydrates for a month the
185:08
carbohydrate cravings went away you know
185:11
last night when we were out for dinner
185:12
somebody ordered bread pudding and I
185:13
bloody love bread pudding with caramel
185:15
and and and ice cream so it was sitting
185:17
there and I could smell it like you know
185:19
I thought I could go all fantastic mr.
185:21
Fox on that bread pudding and just tear
185:24
it down in about 15 seconds but it
185:26
wasn’t it wasn’t as intense as a craving
185:28
for a cigarette if you’re Nick’s
185:29
ex-smoker it was like God be really nice
185:31
to eat that but like my appetite
185:34
declined by about 75% that’s been
185:36
permanent that’s been so there’s a
185:38
perverse thing for you
185:39
I eat way less and now I’m not as hungry
185:42
okay how does that make sense
185:44
well you’re not eating way less you’re
185:46
eating way less thing yes you have 30
185:48
ounce steak last night yes yes I’m doing
185:51
my best not to be hungry although it
185:53
didn’t look like I was 30 no no no
185:55
there’s a small 30 on the steak well I
185:57
think it starts out 30 ounces before
185:59
they cook it right loses a considerable
186:01
right right very fatty right but that’s
186:03
the other thing too you you must have to
186:06
get a lot of fat yeah well I eat fatty
186:08
cuts of steak and yeah Michaela is
186:09
buying fat directly from the butcher
186:12
store and we cooked that up cut it into
186:13
small pieces and fry it up till it’s
186:15
crispy Wow it’s actually quite delicious
186:18
it’s not bread pudding with ice cream
186:20
but it’s not funny
186:21
you mean Dino it’s so ridiculous well I
186:23
wanna I want your blood profile I want
186:25
to find out what’s going on with you
186:27
because one of the big misconceptions
186:29
when it comes to cholesterol and
186:30
saturated fat and food is that if you
186:33
eat dietary cholesterol that it affects
186:35
your
186:35
blood cholesterol levels it’s not it’s a
186:38
super common misconception well those so
186:40
the thing about clinical studies with
186:42
diet are virtually impossible to conduct
186:44
because you just can’t you can’t conduct
186:46
a proper randomly distributed controlled
186:49
experiment it’s too hard so a lot of
186:51
what we’re trying to do is pull out
186:52
information from correlations right you
186:55
can’t do it which is one of the real
186:56
problems with correlating meat with
186:59
cancer and diabetes and all these
187:01
different diseases is because people are
187:02
eating a bunch of shit with that oh yeah
187:04
and they have different lifestyle
187:06
profiles or like there’s just endless
187:07
numbers of confounding variables you
187:10
only need one con founding variable
187:12
that’s that’s relevant to screw up the
187:13
study right you can’t get that
187:15
information with correlational studies
187:17
we try because it’s impossible to do the
187:19
studies but how many people are
187:20
incredulous when they’re honey people
187:22
wouldn’t when they’re hearing about this
187:24
Oh everybody everybody well you or not
187:27
but you know you’re interested in this
187:29
sort of thing but they should be
187:29
incredulous like when people make absurd
187:31
claims is like oh well I had 50 health
187:34
problems and I stopped eating everything
187:35
but meat and they went away it’s like
187:36
whoo sure it’s like yeah well wasn’t you
187:39
dying so yeah and I see the results and
187:44
I know it’s an anecdote I bloody well
187:45
understand that and I’m highly skeptical
187:47
about all of this but I’m telling you so
187:49
that’s why I’m telling you what happened
187:51
to me and what happened to my daughter
187:52
and also what happened to my wife
187:53
because she’s Tammy was always in good
187:55
shape and she’s exercised a lot and she
187:58
reduced to the to the pure carnivore
188:01
died about a month ago she lost like 12
188:04
pounds
188:04
she was already slim she’s back to the
188:06
same weight she was when she was 21
188:09
she’s like 58 you know and she doesn’t
188:13
look 58 I can tell you that so it’s
188:16
really fascinating it’s really
188:18
fascinating because I just I as a person
188:22
who studied diet for many years I would
188:25
assume that you need phytonutrients I
188:27
would assume do you need vitamins
188:29
supplements like vitamin C for example
188:30
turns out if you don’t eat carbohydrates
188:32
you don’t need vitamin C ha who woulda
188:34
guessed how does that work I don’t I
188:37
don’t remember Michaela outlined a paper
188:39
for me
188:39
vitamin C is necessary for carbohydrate
188:41
metabolism but if you don’t if again
188:44
remember everyone listening I am NOT an
188:46
expert in this field right so
188:49
but but I want you to get your blood
188:52
tested because I think if be pretty
188:55
funny if it was in good shape yeah it
188:57
would be I mean I’d like to find out
188:59
what your nutrient levels are and where
189:00
they’re coming yeah I mean what what I’m
189:03
getting a little cramping in my toes
189:05
from time to time so I’m not sure about
189:07
potassium possibility that’s a
189:10
supplement it’s very easy which is why
189:12
I’m concerned but like and also minerals
189:15
you know you know in certain minerals
189:17
you’re getting from vegetables that
189:18
you’re probably not getting yeah well
189:20
this is all like look it seems not hard
189:23
to supplement that stuff though
189:24
colloidal minerals you know there’s some
189:26
mineral pills you could take plenty of
189:28
well there are plants are people who
189:30
basically lived on meat you know the any
189:32
what did the mess I basically did yeah
189:35
there some supplementation but not a lot
189:36
yeah and apparently if you do a
189:39
carnivore diet you’re supposed to eat
189:40
more organ meat and I do some of that
189:42
but not a lot but I can tell you like
189:44
I’m I mean well look I wouldn’t be doing
189:48
this if it wasn’t producing positive
189:49
results yeah it’s not like it’s fun
189:51
running for a while well it makes you a
189:53
social pariah mm-hm like let’s invite
189:56
the Petersons over oh yeah they don’t
189:58
eat anything oh we have other friends
189:59
that’s like well that’s how it works
190:01
it’s not malevolence right it’s just if
190:03
you’re a pain no one invites you out so
190:05
so I’m a social pain and an ideological
190:08
pain and now I’m a nutritional pain
190:10
because there’s no friends how difficult
190:12
is it when you’re trying to get
190:13
breakfast like what do you do when you
190:15
oh well lots of times when we were
190:17
traveling we cook so we’ll usually stay
190:20
in places where you can cook oh okay but
190:22
most places you can get a steak mm-hmm
190:25
and so that’s mostly what we do I’ve
190:26
been traveling in a Motorhome and so
190:28
we’ve been cooking in the Motorhome
190:29
and so not carry beef jerky with me
190:32
which we make what so yeah it’s crazy
190:35
you make your own beef jerky well it’s
190:38
like we have a dehydrator and you just
190:40
basically put salt on and throw in the
190:41
dehydrator so that works pretty well you
190:45
anticipate continuing this well forever
190:48
Cod forevers a long time I’d like to be
190:51
able to eat more things but I’m gonna
190:52
experiment with that very very very very
190:55
very cautiously I’m gonna add mushrooms
190:57
next because maybe I could eat them well
191:00
this is why I’m asking there
191:02
positive benefits that a lot of people
191:04
achieve and and experience when they
191:07
switch to a vegan diet yeah one of the
191:09
things it is is you get off of the
191:10
standard American diet with lots of
191:12
refined sugars and a lot of
191:15
preservatives a little shit and then you
191:18
find positive benefits Chris Kresser has
191:21
gone into depth about this but then over
191:22
time the nutritional bent deficiencies
191:25
in that start to wear on your health yep
191:28
and I’m wondering well it’s certainly
191:32
possible well certainly eventually this
191:34
diet will kill me no life will well
191:38
you’re right
191:39
biology will yes unless so it science
191:42
intervened
191:42
might be that for some people of Megan
191:45
dieters or vegan diet is preferable to a
191:48
standard American diet well for sure to
191:50
a standard American diet but also
191:52
there’s so much biological variability
191:54
yeah you know the things that bothers
191:56
some people don’t bother other people at
191:57
all and that’s that’s something that we
192:00
got to take into consideration yeah well
192:01
that’s why I don’t want to universalize
192:03
from my experience you know but but this
192:05
is what’s happened to me and this is
192:07
what’s happened to my wife and my
192:08
daughter
192:08
so and all of its being well with
192:10
Michaela it’s it’s miraculous I cannot
192:13
believe it the last time I saw it made
192:14
me cry I’ve never seen her look like
192:17
that she looks so good she’s so healthy
192:19
and all her other joints are not
192:21
experiencing any problem and she’s
192:22
taking no immunomodulators at all
192:25
no medication none and she was on him
192:27
fro Jesus yes more medication than you
192:30
can shake a stick at methotrexate which
192:31
is basically they use it to treat cancer
192:34
it’s a it’s a what’s what’s the cancer
192:36
treating drugs called whatever I don’t
192:39
remember at the moment she was on Enbrel
192:42
which really really helped but but later
192:43
opened to bacterial infections so she
192:45
always had pneumonia in the fall but
192:48
envel really helped and then heavy doses
192:52
of antidepressants and Ritalin and Jesus
192:54
how long has she been on this carnivore
192:56
diet oh god she’s only been eating meat
192:59
it’s got to be at least six to eight
193:02
months now Wow and does she get blood
193:06
work done uh yep and her blood work I
193:08
won’t comment on that I don’t know the
193:11
details of her blood work
193:14
I don’t know to answer that hmm it’s
193:17
fascinating I’m curious I’m considering
193:19
trying it for a while the problem is I
193:21
eat so much game meat you know what
193:23
there’s a lot get some fat yeah that’s
193:25
the trick there try it for a month see
193:27
what happens you what the hell a month
193:29
you know just a month ya know a months
193:32
not hard yeah interesting
193:36
all right let’s wrap this up all right
193:38
three hours it’s re 2:20 believe it or
193:40
not hey crazy prison it’s always a
193:42
pleasure great see one thing I want to
193:44
bring up ya for it how weird is this
193:46
whole association to you cuz it’s weird
193:50
to me the IDW yeah oh I D WI yeah
193:54
of course it’s election darkweb it is
193:56
it’s like I’ve been trying to puzzle it
193:58
out I mean I think what it is is a loose
194:01
collection of early adopters of a
194:02
revolutionary technology that’s what it
194:05
looks like to me and and it we found
194:06
each other because we’re all doing the
194:07
same thing but it’s also a bunch of
194:10
people that are honest intellectually
194:11
honest about their and and maybe don’t
194:14
even disagree even agree on folio
194:16
definitely but honest about perceptions
194:18
well and also I think interested in
194:20
long-form discussion yeah right and and
194:22
able to engage in it because otherwise
194:23
we wouldn’t be having the relative
194:25
success that we’re having in the in the
194:27
in the milieu you know and it got a name
194:29
and that’s kind of interesting and
194:31
that’s Eric though yeah that’s right
194:32
that’s Eric yes he loves it most
194:42
interesting about I love to rib him yeah
194:44
well it’s got this funny conspiratorial
194:46
element there that’s sort of true and
194:48
sort of mostly dramatic and was a
194:50
mathematician he’s always looking for
194:52
patterns codes yeah yeah I don’t know
194:55
what to make of it I mean things get a
194:57
name and then you think well why did
194:58
that get named and well someone named it
195:00
but yeah but the name stuck so it seemed
195:02
our proposed is some degree and well
195:04
what do we have in common most of us are
195:07
entrepreneurial most of us have our own
195:08
platform so we can speak independently
195:11
most of us are interested in long-form
195:14
philosophical discussions primarily not
195:16
political but but bordering on political
195:18
well just band’s more political oh yes
195:20
he’s the most yeah but he’s also very
195:22
sophisticated political commentators so
195:24
he borders on both the philosophical and
195:26
the religious yes so
195:28
and then we’re we’re we’re all the newly
195:32
new adopters of this new technology so
195:34
that’s enough to put us in a group and
195:35
then well it turns out that we’ve all
195:37
been talking to each other but part of
195:38
the reason for that is while we’re all
195:40
doing the same thing on the net so it’s
195:42
not surprising that we’re talking to
195:43
each other so I always go for the simple
195:45
explanations first you know it’s not a
195:47
movement exactly what it is it’s the
195:49
manifestation of a new technology and
195:52
then well do we have anything in common
195:53
that’s worth discussing that would make
195:56
this a viable group let’s say and the
195:58
answer to that is I don’t know you know
196:01
I’ve been touring with Ruben that’s been
196:03
good it’s been good to have a comedian
196:04
along and he’s also a good interviewer
196:06
he does the q and a’s with me and it’s
196:09
nice to have some levity in the mix
196:11
because of the conversations are the
196:12
discussions with the audience are very
196:13
serious although I can crack a joke and
196:15
I can’t tell a joke but if something
196:19
funny occurs to be I can say it and
196:22
sometimes it’s funny so that’s something
196:24
you know and we’ve been we’ve been
196:27
discussing a fair bit and I had good
196:29
conversations with Shapiro and Harris
196:30
for that matter so there is lots of
196:32
interplay between us but I think that’s
196:35
more because we we inhabit the same
196:37
technological space more than the same
196:39
ideological space apart from the fact
196:42
that we are actually interested in
196:44
dialogue fundamentally so we’ll see I
196:49
mean I’m watching it with curiosity are
196:53
you apprehensive do you think this is
196:54
sure potential downsides so there’s lots
196:56
of downsides to it sure there’s lots of
196:58
downsides I mean first of all you know
197:01
most of us are on an individual
197:04
individualistic path I’m not come I’m
197:06
not really much of a group guy you know
197:08
so am I in this group it’s like well I’m
197:11
pleased to be associated with you guys
197:13
that’s for sure but I don’t really know
197:16
what it would mean or if it should mean
197:17
anything or if it’ll screw up what I’m
197:18
doing or if it I don’t know anything
197:20
about it
197:21
but mostly I’m curious it’s like huh
197:24
this is a group I thought this is the
197:26
Rat Pack I thought what I walked into
197:28
the restaurant of us because we were out
197:29
last night was Ben Shapiro Sam Harris
197:32
Eric Weinstein Dave Rubin Joe Rogan and
197:35
me right and my wife Tammy and so we’re
197:38
all walking in there and I thought well
197:40
this is kind of like being
197:40
back in the 1950s I thought well I know
197:42
maybe it isn’t but that’s what came to
197:44
mind so I thought that’s funny and it’s
197:46
it’s it’s kind of cool and it’s
197:48
interesting and it’s edgy and all of
197:50
that but I’m not I’m not taking it
197:53
seriously
197:54
I’m not also not you know I’m not taking
197:56
it not seriously either
197:58
but I’m just watching I’m watching
198:00
everybody interact because it is a very
198:01
motley crew of people it is so and
198:04
they’re very different and so but it was
198:07
very much joy thank you okay so why did
198:10
you think it was enjoyable it’s good
198:11
conversation I mean yeah everyone that
198:14
was in that group has been on my podcast
198:15
or I’ve been on theirs and you know it’s
198:18
a fun group of really honest interesting
198:22
people that you Lear very peculiar
198:24
people specially Eric yeah he’s
198:27
listening right now I’m fucking with him
198:28
I love that guy but no I mean they’re
198:30
all it’s there everyone’s different but
198:33
everyone’s also unique and they all
198:34
bring a lot to the table and that’s
198:36
what’s interesting about it you know
198:37
think the weird collection yeah you know
198:40
I I don’t know what to think of it like
198:42
when Eric called me up about the whole
198:44
New York Times thing I’m like what are
198:45
you talking about right like why did you
198:49
do that
198:49
what I do what what did you be part of
198:51
the New York Times article I barely was
198:53
I just answered a couple questions but
198:56
there’s a review you’ve got a picture
198:57
yeah they didn’t direct they didn’t
199:00
obsess they shouldn’t taken a picture of
199:02
me I was dressed like I was going
199:03
onstage at the Comedy Store I didn’t
199:05
wear anything any differently they were
199:06
trying to make a big deal of it I’m like
199:07
look I don’t have any time this you want
199:09
to take a picture means is what I’m
199:10
wearing yeah and and we we did it on the
199:13
parking lot above the Comedy Store and
199:15
started to rain I go we’re done I got to
199:17
go I got to go onstage I can’t be
199:19
soaking wet you know and and then go
199:21
onstage and that was it
199:22
you know it was just okay so your take
199:24
on it is that it’s well it’s in turn is
199:26
its interest yes well this is the this
199:29
is probably another thing that unites
199:31
that group of people everyone in that
199:33
group of people is likely to get in
199:36
trouble because they find you too many
199:37
things interesting
199:39
right and it’s trade openness that’s
199:41
another thing that unites all of us yes
199:42
yeah and so and you know curiosity
199:45
killed the cat and so yeah but we’re not
199:47
cats true curiosity also built the
199:50
pyramids it did it did it and it saved a
199:52
lot of caps too
199:55
let’s end with that all right all right
199:57
Jordan all right pleasure my friend
199:59
chewy again see you always yeah yeah
200:01
that’s it folks see you soon
200:05
[Music]
200:10
[Applause]
200:12
[Music]

Triangulation 😮 Narcissist Triangulation Triangulate Here’s Why

Rough Translation:

namaste everybody, Lisa a romano the breakthrough a life coach and today I
wanted to talk about narcissistic triangulation and why narcissists need
to triangulate in the first place so that we can understand and why I think
it’s important that we take some time to consider why triangulation is so huge
for narcissists is because alice is making a bunch of noise in my office
right now she’s just getting comfortable so that’s the groaning you hear Alice
anyway so it’s important that we understand that triangulation goes hand
in hand with narcissism and narcissistic rage narcissistic projection and all
that goes along with dealing with a very unhealthy personality who is extremely
shame-based and is doing everything that they possibly can to deflect from
anybody ever being able to see past the mask and they will use just about any
any tactic necessary to prevent anybody from seeing their flaws and so I just
did a video if you haven’t seen it on self-acceptance oh you might want to
check that out because kind of dovetails nicely into this idea healthy people
accept that they have flaws and they accept that they’re human and they know
that humility is part of the human experience and they learn to heal their
shame they identify that shame is is not necessary guilt can be very helpful and
that it helps us shape our behavior in the future so I know that I was a very
reactive young mom I was 23 when I had my son what did I know
and I was had very low self-esteem and I was severely codependent so really below
the veil very reactive you know just thinking if I did everything right then
everything’s gonna if I was good and I was a doormat and I took care of
everybody then life somehow would work out you know that was mixed in with a
lot of the my indoctrination from growing up as a Catholic being told that
I should worry more about others and then myself and my mother used to say to
me you should be ashamed of yourself right whenever I didn’t act accordingly
and so we we as healthy people are understanding that you know guilt can
help us shape our behavior so if I realized that I was over reactive and
very you know it was just an overreacted young mom I can feel guilt about that
about my behavior and that guilt can help me change my behavior in the future
that’s awesome but we’re learning that shame is not us
shame shame comes from the outside it’s an experience from outside it’s related
to family secrets it’s it’s related to what’s going on in our child’s at home
that we can’t work out and we feel terrified that people are going to know
that there’s mental illness in our family or our mother or father committed
suicide or our brothers on drugs or i’ont committed suicide or whatever
right so we’re so afraid of these truths that have nothing to do with us right
and many of us carry this shame so we’re healthy people are understanding like
okay shame is happened to me someone made me feel shame it’s like someone
gave you a sweater I call it the SOS the sweater of shame and as you heal and
become more above the veil you become more conscious like I can take this
fricking sweater off anytime I want to because it’s not my fault that I have
this shame nobody should shame a child and a child should never have to carry
the weight of the world on their shoulders alone there should always have
been someone there attuning themselves the child making them feel better and
helping them understand their circumstances I don’t need this sort of
shame anymore but when it comes to narcissistic personalities their shame
is so deep and they are so defensive that they deflect and they project
because they can’t get to that space of what happened to me you know they can’t
and they don’t want to they have no desire to go there right so healthy
people who have been wounded go there it hurts like hell trust me been there a
few times you know I’m still dealing with myself you know and what’s happened
but we’re all working progress right so healthy people are able to go there and
heal their shame and and recognize the shame is not made with
something that happened to me you know and as difficult as a process as it is
and anybody has ever taken my 12-week breakthrough coaching program
we’re digging you know we’re getting in there we’re just we’re scrubbing the
walls of the soul and you know we’re trying to figure out what happened and
it’s tough stuff but people who refuse to take that journey who are defensive
and and deflect all the time and project who never get to that that core of what
is at the root of their anger and their rage and their disappointment in life
right they end up staying stuck and they end up blaming people for why they feel
the way they feel so so why does a narcissist
why does try any triangulation go hand and hand with a narcissist in my humble
opinion I am a Cho in my humble opinion triangulation goes hand in hand with
narcissistic abuse because the narcissist has got to make sure they end
up on the top so if a narcissist is in a relationship with you and they do this
all wherever they go in my opinion so if a narcissist is at work right in a work
setting a narcissist can act like he is that his partner’s best friend but
behind his partner’s back you know he’s talking about the partner in the break
room you know Ralph is a nice guy but you know he had a nervous breakdown
about you know six years ago yeah you know his poor wife you know he’s a
handful I mean on the surface he looks like a
great guy he’s so easy to deal with but you know the reality is he’s got so many
problems and you know you know I’m doing my best to like you know drag him along
like you know keep him going and you know I’m gonna take him out next Friday
and make sure that you know you know he’s okay meanwhile Ralph is fine
Ralph’s a hundred percent fine routes 110% fine Ralph has no issues whatsoever
but let’s say the narcissist name is Mark you know mark is making sure that
if there’s ever a fall with Ralph that mark ends up on the top
that people like oh my god poor mark because he has to he has to make a claim
against you right he’s building up a case against you or building up a case
against Ralph in the in the event that there is an issue he cut mark ends up
looking like he’s the guy on top so narcissists are always collecting flying
monkeys whether we know it or we don’t but it is a very common common trait you
have let’s say you’re married to a narcissist and you know behind your back
he’s calling his family and he’s he’s talking to his friends he’s even calling
your friends he’s my ex-husband did this my ex-husband called my friends called
my mother hung out with my brother talked to my father and in one breath
was saying to him your daughter’s like she could have been a rocket scientist
she’s amazing there’s nothing that could have could have held her back but to me
he was calling me name saying that I was a flake saying that I was crazy saying
things like even your mother thinks you’re crazy which means you had a
conversation with my mother about me behind my back which means you pulled
her into our life and into our conversation right or just into our
experience triangulation so this is a very common thread and it’s amazing when
you see it right you know they have to triangulate because they’re concerned
that if anything they’re always thinking ahead whether it’s on whether it’s
conscious or unconscious they’re always making claims against our the people so
that they always look like the victim so in my humble opinion narcissistic
triangulation is the norm narcissists are always collecting flying monkeys and
it doesn’t matter if it’s at work it doesn’t matter if it’s in the doctor’s
office it doesn’t matter if it’s in a relationship with a friend or
relationship with a spouse their agenda is to make sure that they look like the
victim very very important and we have to be prepared because
and this is what happens to us like in my case you know I was the codependent
and I never went to my family about my ex-husband because I wanted them to see
him as a nice guy you know I wanted to make them proud
you know I also knew that if I went to my parents and told them I think to sum
up with this guy they wouldn’t have believed me because
he spent so much time convincing them that he was awesome and because I was so
codependent and I was worried about not looking perfect and I was worried about
being judged for being unhappy I was taught that I wasn’t allowed to be
unhappy and how dare you you’re selfish for being unhappy I never told anybody
about my ex-husband I kept it to myself so I was not collecting flying monkeys I
wasn’t triangulating and then what happens when the roof blows off and the
floor gets pulled out from underneath you you go to talk to your friends and
lo and behold you discover that your husband or your boyfriend or your
girlfriend has been talking to them about you the entire time and so when
you go for support nobody believes you nobody understands you and when the
smear campaign starts you feel like you swallowed a grenade like what just
happened you review the agenda is to stay above you and right so I can’t have
an open conversation with you I have to stay above you right and I don’t know I
don’t want to resolve this with you because I am the victim and I want to
make sure that I remain the victim so I have to stay above you so that’s also
another another key idea to keep in mind and that’s why narcissism involves
triangulation and that’s why when relationships end there is there are
smear campaigns because it’s been happening when you didn’t even realize
it was happening behind your back there was a collection of smear complaining
monkeys there was this collection of things happening that you weren’t even
aware of and you know we have to if if we have been woken up in a relationship
with the narcissist you know we realize we’ve been in a relation
with the narcissist you know unfortunately we have to expect that the
smear campaign is an inevitable aspect of ending that relationship because they
can’t just go away they can’t just end the relationship
they can’t just ride off into the sunset and start another relationship and say
wow what did that past relationship teach me know narcissists must destroy
you they are aggressive they are hell-bent on destruction and the more
you come at them the more they’re gonna try to annihilate you right angry stuck
below the veil of consciousness reactive and totally believe they are the victim
and so when you take all of this into consideration you will take into
consideration the shame that they’re trying to run from right and how anger
sometimes can prevent can make them feel safe right so if I make you the bad guy
I never have to look at me and if you’re the bad guy and you’re crazy
then whatever wisdom comes out of your mouth possibly I can deflect because
you’re crazy and you’re no good and so I never have to let what you have to have
you have to say penetrate my soul and crack the mask so then I never have to
deal with the tremendous shame that’s inside of me
so sometimes anger and rage is like a shield and that prevents narcissists
from actually able being able to actually deal with their shame and then
if you understand that they must remain the victim then you also have to you
also can understand why they triangulate and what the purpose is of it and the
reason I like to do these types of videos is because once you understand
the the agenda once you understand the mechanics once you once you understand
why a narcissistic personality would take this on then it’s easier for us to
step step away from it you know it’s really really mind-blowing when you find
yourself in a relationship with the narcissist that you’ve cared about and
the relationship has ended and you just go to work the next day minding your own
business like wow it sucks you know I can’t believe this person was this
person like you know I love this purse you know and but you’re going you mind
your own business you’re going about life and taking care of yourself and
doing your Epsom salt baths or whatever you know hold it onto your crystals
going for some Reiki whatever floats your boat and then BAM out of nowhere
you get hit upside your head with some news of a smear campaign minding your
own business and here comes the smear campaign or you decide to meet up with
some girlfriends and talk about why you broke up and you know by the look on her
face she’s like that’s not what I heard what do you mean is that what you heard
and then you find out that your husband and your boyfriend or whatever has been
talking to your girlfriend the whole time that you’ve been with them right it
is devastating and it can make you feel so alone and I can tell you as someone
who has been accused of so many different things by my ex-husband and
his family and even some friends I can tell you that it makes you feel like you
have you are three months old you know you have been dropped off in the middle
of the Brooklyn Bridge and they’re attractive trailers coming at you you
know the helicopters with machine guns hovering over and it’s dark you know
it’s not gonna rain and you’re this 3-month little old baby on this bridge
and oh my god you know it makes you feel so powerless and so helpless and like
the world is coming to an end but hold on and know that the more you hold onto
yourself in the less attention you give this situation you are pulling your
energy from it remember what we focus on grows right and so imagine that this
isn’t an energetic ball his energy or her smear campaign whatever it is is an
energetic ball and your job is to pull as much energy and drain as much energy
from it as possible so that it can dissipate and shrink so the less
attention you give it don’t look on Facebook don’t talk to the friends
who’ve been pulled in you don’t have conversations about what’s going on
deliberately pull your attention from it in the meantime up your self-care very
very important and so dodging it with namaste namaste and also know you know I
also teach your Law of Attraction class and
this question always comes up like I thought I was doing better how could I
have tracked this into my life and you know I’ve done so much healing work how
could this happen to me again you know and then they start to feel bad
sometimes members feel bad that this has shown up right that this abusive
relationship has shown up with this conversation has shown up and I thought
I was doing so much better so just a little bit about that what is within us
that needs to be healed will eventually come to the surface and when it comes to
a certain comes to the surface that’s a that’s our opportunity to heal it so
that we can move forward so we’re always trying to I think anyway in my humble
opinion iMHO I think what we’re trying to do is
evolve and to leave old paradigms behind so that we can create new paradigms and
move and accelerate forward on our spiritual journey and so while something
is still active inside of us it could be the fear of what other people think
about us it could be leftover shame from childhood right it could be a pattern in
ourselves the I know for me after I got divorced I attracted three narcissistic
relationships one was worse than the other and these were criminals hello I
didn’t know that I eventually figured that out but seriously this was serious
stuff and what I had to look at was I was the common denominator so what was
coming up from me right what was coming up for me was eventually I realized I
was ignoring some red flags that my inner guidance was was sending me
signals and I was saying no I was rationalizing them away and so that’s
why after the last relationship I was like I’m not ignoring red flags anymore
because what I do hell breaks loose and so that’s what I came that’s that’s what
I attracted into my life because I want truth and I want growth and so here I am
asking for growth and when you ask for growth you will be presented with what
needs to shift and as long as we stay clear as to the goal for our humanity or
for our souls journey as long as we understand we’re here to transcend the
old and we don’t freak out what it shows when it shows itself like when we find
out someone stole money from us so we find out someone’s lied to us it’s been
it’s it’s now part of our experience because it’s sort of like a layer of
skin that’s now at the surface that we need to slough off right and that’s an
awesome thing so try not to get caught up thinking that because it’s in our
experience it’s a bad thing because time and time again
I mean I’ve coached probably thousands of people personally as well as through
my coaching programs and what is showing up is this idea that every time a
conflict is resolved abundance shows up whether it’s abundance of light energy
or abundance of healing energy so don’t allow the linear brain good bad up down
left right Democrat Republican fool you into thinking or believing in this
illusion that this is a bad thing if something’s showing up in your
experience is painful that’s a good thing because it’s an opportunity to
heal it and to shift and to become a more abundant light activated body being
person soul person so it’s all good as long as we don’t allow our minds to tell
us that it’s not good and so there are definitely tools that we can use on the
road as we’re learning to heal ourselves and here our lives like the 1 2 3
process you can look up look up the 1 2 3 process on my channel there are so
many tools that we can use so you can also check out codependent now what it’s
naughty what you’re programming I have a ton of resources and a ton of life
skills that you can use to help you manage when chaos comes up so I hope
that this this video has helped you understand why trying why narcissists
triangulate and what you can do to get out of get out of a head of it if you
find yourself in the middle of it and how important it is to just remove your
energy from it and just just let them just let them burn out because I mean
when you ignore a narcissist like that makes them crazy when you set a boundary
that makes them nuts like they they can’t handle it right and so what will
happen is they won’t be able to contain the
narcissistic rage and I know that sounds crazy but hear me as long as you do what
you can to maintain your energy and you just allow this little Tasmanian devil
to spin out what’s gonna happen is the flying monkeys you know family members
your friends whatever they’re gonna start to see what’s really behind the
mask which is destruction which is annihilation which is the opposite of
love and letting go and abundance right and so try to keep this in mind the next
time you’re dealing with this or if you’re dealing with this and know that
ultimate self care ultimate self empathy can definitely ease the pain of having
to survive a narcissistic smear campaign you’re not alone I’ve survived one or
two in my life so know that you’re in good company and everything’s gonna be
fine just love yourself because you are enough now I must say I bow to the love
and the light that is absolutely in you and for anyone who’s interested in my
membership site you can check it out at HTTPS dot dot slash slash Lisa – a dash
Romano dot Micah jabra.com I have a bunch of programs and video lessons and
audio lessons and meditations and downloadable files including a copy of
the road back to me and some of my best-selling programs not the 12-week
and not the master class but other programs are actually in the in the
membership site as well and so just check it out and let me know what you
think bye for now

Should You Tell A Narcissist Who They Really Are?

It can feel like a great idea to call a narcissist out and tell them who they really are. But can anything good come of it?

It can be a very emotional experience when we find the information that allows us to understand why this person behaves the way they do. And even though the information is shocking it makes so much sense. All the pieces add up. And at this time it is very likely to feel an intense urge to tell the narcissist who they really are. In this week’s video we deeply investigate the urge so many of us have to call the narcissist out and let them know they have pathological narcissism … I’m going to explain why you should never act on the urge and what is the most beneficial thing to do for you and your healing instead.