openpolitics.com

it’s about undermining a

potential source of a potential power

source that he doesn’t control so a

potential power source that he doesn’t

control is the truth so by trying to

define everything as a matter of opinion

he undermines all of journalism and I

Transcript

00:01

thank you thank you so it’s such a

00:08

pleasure to be here with Andrea who is

00:10

my journalism hero and friend and I I’m

00:17

often asked if there’s what journalists

00:20

can do in this situation with this

00:22

administration we’re really I mean no

00:26

matter what we do we lose right it’s

00:28

always it’s always a net loss for

00:29

journalism

00:30

it is always in that loss for journalism

00:32

right weights the loss of access it’s

00:33

the loss of information it’s a loss of

00:35

sort of trust it’s sort of trust and but

00:42

but the one example that I can always

00:44

give of of a journalistic effort that

00:47

that I think is successful and that

00:49

actually finds the right approach to

00:51

this administration is trumping which is

00:55

amazing if you’re not already listening

00:57

to it you have to start now and now

01:03

there’s this book which is which is an

01:07

extraordinary accomplishment and I I

01:09

don’t understand how you did it while

01:10

also doing the podcast I was sort of

01:13

observing the process and then suddenly

01:16

it was done it was amazing for me too

01:21

but to start with I actually want to ask

01:24

you to read I know I know you have a

01:26

good radio voice so could you read from

01:31

the very beginning of the book at the

01:33

section called the wedding from page 7

01:39

absolutely with an wedding has its own

01:42

internal alert the wedding this is the

01:50

wedding with Jared Kushner Nevada Trump

01:51

the wedding had its own alert internal

01:54

allure the world of the Celebrity

01:56

Apprentice was one of famous people who

01:58

had seen better days Dennis Rodman Gary

02:00

Busey Dionne Warwick Joan Rivers there

02:03

were actual movie stars at Jared and

02:05

Ivanka’s wedding Princess Padme Amidala

02:08

of the Star Wars movie franchise Natalie

02:11

Portman and Maximus

02:13

miss Meridius from gladiator Russell

02:15

Crowe among the old dynastic families of

02:18

New York real estate when asked about

02:20

Trump people said and still say Donald

02:23

Trump is not one of us they say they

02:26

never saw Donald Trump at the Real

02:27

Estate Board of New York or at the

02:28

partnership for the New York City or the

02:31

Alliance for a better New York they did

02:33

not see him at civic events they did not

02:34

see him at charity balls or the ballet

02:36

or the Opera with few exceptions for

02:39

example the US Open tennis tournament in

02:41

Queens he stayed in his own homes

02:43

frequented his own clubs and ate in the

02:45

restaurants in his own buildings

02:47

by contrast Ivanka Trump had found

02:49

acceptance in the Manhattan elite she

02:51

went to the Chapin school on the Upper

02:53

East Side and showed Rosemary Hall

02:54

boarding school in Connecticut and she

02:56

said School of American Ballet and

02:59

danced as a child extra in the

03:00

Nutcracker as an adult she was a

03:03

sought-after supporter for causes from

03:05

the World Wildlife Fund to the New York

03:07

City Police Foundation she was welcomed

03:09

to the Met Gala and Vanity Fair parties

03:11

and chatted about Opera with Leonard

03:13

low-paid on the public radio station

03:14

WNYC unlike her father and her husband

03:18

she had no hint of Queens or New Jersey

03:20

in her measured speech somehow through

03:24

her their accents were laundered Ivanka

03:27

and Jared’s wedding was Jewish in a

03:29

trumpian way as women arrived they were

03:35

given elegant shawls to guard against

03:37

the autumnal chill as the Sun slid down

03:39

the sky but also to cover their

03:41

shoulders Ivanka herself were a Vera

03:44

Wang wedding dress shoulders covered by

03:46

white lace sleeves extending down to her

03:49

elbows in some dances women were

03:51

separated from men in the Orthodox

03:53

tradition the food served in a separate

03:56

dinner tent also enormous was kosher a

03:58

rabbi had walked through the tent

04:00

koshering a caters caterers knife by

04:02

dipping it in water

04:04

there was pastrami corned beef turkey

04:07

sushi station and Peking Duck a 13 layer

04:10

cake that was almost as tall as the

04:13

bride and groom which is tall ringed

04:15

with cream-colored lisianthus roses

04:18

peonies lilies-of-the-valley and baby’s

04:20

breaths

04:21

Charles Kushner’s speech was a variant

04:23

of the one he gave at every family event

04:25

every simcha

04:26

Yiddish and Hebrew for joy a metonym for

04:29

joyous occasion about being the son of

04:31

Holocaust survivors about the miracle of

04:33

survival about Jews thriving and

04:35

prevailing about the values of family

04:37

and has said Hebrew for compassion or

04:40

grace and Torah he spoke about evanka

04:43

and how she had worked so hard to become

04:45

Jewish and how the family embraced her

04:47

now Donald Trump had been bewildered by

04:50

his daughter’s conversion but was

04:52

gracious at his daughter’s wedding

04:53

he spoke appreciatively and

04:55

uncharacteristically of his first wife

04:57

Ivana and all the work she’d done to

05:00

raise Ivanka acknowledging he hadn’t

05:02

always been an attentive parent the

05:04

guests who had come to the wedding with

05:05

a mix of curiosity and anticipation and

05:08

obligation and appreciation were greeted

05:11

warmly they felt for a fleeting instance

05:14

perhaps the gravitational pull of Donald

05:16

Trump’s personality that night as guests

05:20

left clutching their give away prayer

05:22

books and a pair of javi Anna flip-flops

05:24

that said jarred on one and Ivanka on

05:27

the other laced through with a string

05:29

calling them a great pair they were

05:32

forced to embrace Trump’s ostentatious

05:34

nests even as they participated in his

05:36

display to pay tribute to this marriage

05:39

of money and power to acknowledge the

05:42

authority of the patriarchs from the

05:44

vantage point of everything they had

05:46

built the families could say we’ve

05:49

arrived you are complicit in our power

05:51

we are a force to be reckoned with pay

05:55

respect to us foolishly the world did

05:59

not

06:02

so as as you can tell this is also

06:10

beautifully written book in addition to

06:12

being an incredibly research book but I

06:16

want to talk about the title for a

06:18

second mm-hmm

06:19

you call them American oligarchs so

06:21

let’s define the terms what’s what’s an

06:23

oligarch so Masha I think I asked you

06:29

that question when I was starting

06:32

writing this book or even before I had

06:35

started writing this book like many

06:38

people after the 2016 election which I

06:40

had covered I didn’t know what to do

06:43

next and I was trying to figure out what

06:45

to do next and we started on this Trump

06:50

business reporting project and I kept

06:51

running into Russian names so I asked

06:55

Masha would she have coffee for me and

06:57

explained what an oligarch was and so

07:04

that was maybe six months before I

07:08

started to write this book proposal and

07:10

I just hit on the title American

07:11

oligarch so what do I mean by American

07:14

oligarch I think what I’m what it is is

07:20

what we see in this Trump world and

07:23

especially in this real estate world of

07:25

New York and New Jersey but all over

07:26

this country we’re incredibly wealthy

07:30

people give the money to get the

07:34

government they want and one of the

07:38

things that I really wrestled with in

07:39

writing the book is that Trump and

07:40

Kushner’s are definitely okay so I don’t

07:43

really know how rich he is because I

07:44

haven’t seen his tax returns

07:46

but I don’t think Donald Trump or the

07:49

Kushner’s are the richest people in

07:50

America by far and they were not sort of

07:54

players in the political scene in the

07:56

way the Koch brothers were or the olan’s

07:59

or the devices or the princes or any of

08:02

those people who just really gave money

08:04

to break the campaign finance system but

08:08

the Trump family and the Kushner family

08:10

but especially the Trump family broken

08:12

in a different way and the way was that

08:15

Donald Trump in his father gave so much

08:18

money to the political bosses and also

08:21

had the system of compromise like they

08:23

would hire the people that would work

08:27

for the party bosses they hired their

08:29

lawyers and they just always figured out

08:31

the way in so they could use their money

08:33

to get the government they wanted along

08:37

with that was making sure that they

08:40

would never suffer legal consequences

08:42

which enabled them to do this and one of

08:45

the things I learned in writing the book

08:46

was that they broke it from within so I

08:50

didn’t really know what an American

08:53

oligarch was when I started writing the

08:54

book even though I had it in the title

08:56

but I think I understand it now and I

08:58

didn’t know everything that was going to

09:00

happen in the two years since I started

09:02

writing the book but what we see is a

09:05

system that where the very wealthy are

09:10

making money faster and faster and

09:13

thanks to the tax cuts and Jobs Act of

09:15

2017 they’re making it even faster and

09:17

then they have more money to give to a

09:18

very transactional president who has

09:21

made it so clear I mean every day people

09:25

just pay this president which is like

09:27

the stunning to me is somebody who

09:28

covered political corruption because it

09:31

didn’t happen that way you know I spent

09:32

so much time looking through campaign

09:34

finance disclosures and lining them up

09:36

and lining up the check numbers and with

09:37

Trump it’s just out there in the open

09:39

people are booking rooms at his hotels

09:41

or golf course memberships are buying

09:43

condos and he is paying close attention

09:46

now I think that American oligarchs are

09:51

not quite what I understand is happening

09:54

in Russia with the oligarchs because

09:57

these are people who

09:58

as I understand it are so beholden to

10:01

Putin and their whole business model

10:03

relies on their sort of supporting his

10:06

government not crossing him and if they

10:09

do they will not make money or be killed

10:11

or sent to jail or exiled or maybe all

10:14

of those things which is something that

10:17

I learned from man without a face which

10:19

is also a book that Masha wrote so I

10:23

we’re not that’s not exactly where we

10:26

are however one of the things that

10:29

happened to me while I was covering Paul

10:30

mana for its trial that really shocked

10:33

me was that during the trial one of the

10:38

political consultants who had worked

10:39

with Paul Manafort said do you know who

10:41

paid you and he said oh yes very rich

10:43

people they call them oligarchs and I

10:45

thought wow that is crazy there was no I

10:49

mean there was no super PACs there was

10:51

no campaign finance system there was

10:53

nothing they just paid for the

10:55

consultant that was going to hire the

10:56

president that they wanted that was

10:58

going to enable them to keep making

10:59

money so we’re not quite there but that

11:05

is the direction we are heading

11:06

unfortunately so you talk about the

11:11

research for this book is starting six

11:14

well right after the election but

11:16

advance right right did the research

11:18

actually begin so I started I started

11:22

covering corruption in well I started

11:25

covering governments in New York in 1994

11:29

which was the year Rudy Giuliani became

11:31

mayor and I covered politics election

11:37

government but really what I wanted to

11:41

do is understand how power worked and so

11:45

that is an endeavor that I’ve been doing

11:49

for 26 years now and one of the things

11:55

about I recently did a story for NPR

11:58

just sort of all this tape of Rudy

12:00

through the ages and NPR was like can

12:03

you do this story can you find the time

12:05

which was you know right around the time

12:07

this book was supposed to be finished

12:09

and they said look once you pulled the

12:12

tape

12:12

together you can use it for his obituary

12:13

and I was like oh my god I’ve been

12:17

covering Rudy Giuliani since he was

12:18

mayor and now apparently I’m going to

12:20

cover him until he dies not that he’s on

12:22

the verge of death but I’ll have the

12:24

tape together but talk a little bit more

12:29

but how I want you to talk about Wayne

12:32

Barrett a little bit yeah so while I so

12:35

I had before I was a journalist I worked

12:38

in New York City government in politics

12:40

and I was sort of a low-level official

12:43

and I read the book City for sale by

12:47

Jack Newfield and Wayne Barrett and I

12:51

thought to myself wow this is how power

12:55

works and all of these people that live

12:57

in this world around me that did things

12:59

I had no idea and I thought to myself

13:01

okay I want to be like that and many of

13:04

you know Wayne Barrett he was a

13:06

legendary muckraking reporter a friend

13:10

of mine he really dedicated a large

13:13

portion of his life to investigating

13:15

Donald Trump he was actually the first

13:17

person to think okay Donald Trump is

13:19

somebody worthy of a biography a serious

13:21

biography and he also wrote two

13:23

biographies of Rudy Giuliani Wayne died

13:28

on January 19th 2017 hours before Trump

13:32

was sworn in as president but has been a

13:34

daily source of inspiration to me

13:36

because he was the kind of muckraking

13:40

fact-based journalist who was willing to

13:42

connect the dots that has been a model

13:44

for my career and I actually think for

13:46

many journalists who are working today I

13:50

remember we met up I think in early 2017

13:55

and and you sort of gestured around to

14:01

to lower Manhattan where we were and

14:04

said I think real estate holds the key

14:07

yeah I think we just look at real estate

14:08

we’re going to figure it all out what

14:11

made you think that well so real estate

14:15

in New York we don’t necessarily think

14:17

of it this way but it’s like it’s like

14:19

an energy or a mineral resource it is a

14:22

limited resource that is controlled by

14:25

the government and it is also thanks to

14:31

laws that began that Thomas Jefferson

14:35

encouraged of all people there began

14:38

this tradition in this country of

14:39

keeping very detailed land records so

14:41

even though Donald Trump has figured out

14:45

every way to not tell us things about

14:47

his holdings real estate records are

14:52

extremely detailed and you can find all

14:54

kinds of things about them one of the

14:57

first stories that we did was about Paul

15:00

man affords real estate deals and what

15:03

we had started doing is really okay

15:04

we’re going to look at Trump Tower and

15:05

figure out all the people that live

15:07

there

15:08

mostly with shell companies we tried to

15:10

figure out who the shell companies were

15:11

we got up to apartment 43 G and that was

15:14

Paul manna forts apartment and it was

15:16

such a strange financing pattern we

15:20

tried to sort it out and we wouldn’t we

15:22

asked a bunch of excerpts experts who

15:24

would finance their apartment in this

15:26

way and they said oh that looks like

15:27

money laundering so we wrote that story

15:30

it was money laundering and as a matter

15:34

of fact it was money laundered from the

15:37

oligarch couldn’t Ukraine that I

15:38

mentioned and Paul Manafort serving

15:41

prison time for it which is one of the

15:45

reasons that Donald Trump and Giuliani

15:47

went to Ukraine in the first place

15:48

because they wanted to undermine the

15:52

basis of that conviction even though it

15:54

was tested in two federal jurisdictions

15:57

they believe that if they could cast

15:59

doubt on Paul metaphores kindig

16:00

conviction then they would cast doubt on

16:03

the whole Muller report so shifting

16:09

gears a little bit

16:10

most of the protagonists of this book

16:13

are not people that you had access to

16:16

for various reasons some are dead hmm

16:21

and some wouldn’t talk to you yeah and

16:24

some I understand receives scores of

16:26

questions from you I mean let me just

16:30

sidebar this so many of you know that

16:34

masha after the 2016 election wrote i’ll

16:39

talk

16:39

rules for survival and one of the things

16:41

she said is expect there to be less and

16:44

less press access fewer and fewer press

16:48

briefings and for people who try to

16:51

report in the administration to be

16:52

retaliate in a way that makes it

16:54

impossible to do their job that was a

16:58

fairly benign description of our current

17:01

situation we not only have we not seen

17:05

the president’s tax returns or know who

17:07

his business partners are or who to whom

17:10

he owes money there are no visitor

17:13

records at mar-a-lago or at the White

17:15

House there it’s much harder to get

17:18

disclosures they simply do not give us

17:20

information I mean I think we see in

17:22

this impeachment trial the way they have

17:23

stonewalled Congress but that is also

17:25

what it’s like to be a journalist we

17:26

just get nothing and so I think that

17:33

covering this administration has really

17:37

I mean and the other thing also of

17:40

course is that Donald Trump just you

17:41

know bullies people especially

17:43

journalists he calls journalists the

17:45

enemies of the people the enemy of the

17:47

people which is as you know not an

17:50

accident it’s about undermining a

17:52

potential source of a potential power

17:56

source that he doesn’t control so a

potential power source that he doesn’t

control is the truth so by trying to

define everything as a matter of opinion

he undermines all of journalism and I

think that that is one of the things

that I both tried to do in the book and

try to do in the in the trumping podcast

is to sort of by doing it say yes

actually there is truth there is an

alternate power center to the answer of

access I mean one of the things that

turns out to be incredibly interesting

18:32

is that um a lot of people in New York

18:37

City and New Jersey know a trump or a

18:40

Kushner it’s amazing to me particularly

18:42

and if anybody hears from Livingston New

18:45

Jersey but at almost every event that

18:47

I’ve been to including on the west coast

18:48

somebody has come to me and said I’m

18:50

from Livingston New Jersey which is

18:51

where the Kushner family is from

18:53

population 28,000 right so it has been

18:57

you know I feel that I am blessed by the

19:00

generosity of my sources who have spoken

19:03

to me under you know a conditions of a

19:06

lot of fear and many of them have

19:07

already suffered repercussions and other

19:09

ones were afraid that they would I sent

19:13

separate questions to Jared Kushner

19:16

Ivanka Trump Charles Kushner and Donald

19:19

Trump the Trump’s just ignored me the

19:22

Kushner’s basically ignored all of my

19:23

questions and there did answer a few

19:28

fact-checking confirm or correct type of

19:31

questions so I had a little bit of that

19:35

but that’s all that I got from them so

19:39

two follow-ups to that first of all did

19:40

they answer those truthfully well so far

19:48

as I could tell yes but one of the

19:52

questions to Jared Kushner was you

19:54

graduated from Harvard and the class of

19:57

2003 correct and he and the answer was

20:03

with honors so it’s like okay I’m gonna

20:06

put that in the book because I was sort

20:07

of tough on Jared Kushner and he got

20:10

into Harvard after his father gave a

20:12

huge contribution his father did not go

20:13

to Harvard but them shout out to my

20:18

excellent fact-checker Fergus McIntosh

20:19

she found out that 91 percent of the

20:21

people in the class of 2003 had

20:23

graduated with honors so I didn’t put it

20:25

in the book so it’s true right but but

20:32

did you feel like it was and I’m and I’m

20:35

asking this actually because i i’ve

20:37

written some about people that i also

20:39

didn’t have access to and sometimes it

20:41

feels like an advantage because you’re

20:42

not beholden to somebody yeah I mean I I

20:47

think that it is harder when I mean it’s

20:51

hard when somebody gives you a lot of

20:53

access because I mean I feel an

20:55

incredible sense of responsibility to to

20:58

everybody that’s in the book to all the

21:00

people that spoke to me and to everybody

21:02

that’s in it to really really try and

21:05

get it

21:07

but I think that knowing how these

21:11

families work the people that work with

21:13

them they give up so much of themselves

21:16

and it’s one of the major themes of the

21:18

book is everybody gets close to them

21:21

compromises themselves in some way and

21:23

then can’t go back not a journalist but

21:26

an example of this is Michael Cohen who

21:30

talks in some testimony that I have in

21:33

the book about how Trump kept asking him

21:35

to cross lines and every time he crossed

21:36

a line he would ask them to cross

21:38

another line and then he was so far over

21:40

he could never go back and then when

21:42

Michael Cohen testified to Congress and

21:44

they were attacking him and defending

21:46

Trump he said I was you don’t do what I

21:48

did because then you will find yourself

21:50

in the position that I’m in which is

21:53

serving three years in prison right now

21:56

right so you’re saying that’s the

21:59

advantage is that you saying that right

22:01

I mean with with especially with Donald

22:03

Trump like the whole history of his

22:05

relationship with journalists is that he

22:10

beguiles journalists and there’s a lot

22:12

of examples in the story about how he

22:13

like gave sports tickets to people and

22:15

then they couldn’t cover him anymore and

22:17

he would do things to bring people close

22:19

to him I mean he can treat journalists

22:21

any differently from the way he did

22:23

anybody else and then if people if he

22:25

didn’t like the stories he would

22:27

threaten to sue them and this goes back

22:28

forever and did sue them so I want to

22:35

talk about trumping for a minute because

22:37

what I what I most appreciate about it

22:40

is that it has I mean first of all it’s

22:42

an open-ended you call yourself an open

22:44

and an investigation which i think is

22:47

brilliant and your project is very

22:49

clearly to describe trumpism as a system

22:51

yeah and I just want to make it clear

22:55

just how different it is from the normal

22:57

of journalistic project how did you I

23:00

mean how different is it and and how did

23:02

you come up with this idea so we came up

23:08

with the idea so this is something so

23:09

right after Trump was elected it became

23:12

very clear that we were gonna have to

23:14

work with a lot of other journalists

23:15

because the

23:18

system was so complicated and there was

23:21

how I mean you could spend a year

23:23

investigating one shell company that

23:26

gave to the Trump inaugural so it became

23:28

clear that we were gonna have to

23:29

cooperate in a way that we were not used

23:32

to cooperating I mean we didn’t have to

23:34

but it would be better to do that

23:35

because there was so much material to go

23:37

through we would just be wasting our

23:38

time if we would be competing with each

23:40

other over diving into these business

23:42

records so we started to reach out to a

23:46

lot of journalists and we created this

23:49

partnership with ProPublica and we did

23:51

some stories about one of the first

23:53

stories we did was how Don Junior Ivanka

23:56

and Donald Trump was still on the Trump

23:57

Soho liquor license while they were in

23:59

the White House which meant if a high

24:01

school student bought a drink at the bar

24:03

that Trump Soho the president the United

24:05

States would be liable for that so but

24:09

we started to do a number of stories

24:11

with them and then we did this story

24:14

about the Trump Soho this was another

24:17

meeting that I had with mascha because I

24:19

wanted to know how to pronounce all the

24:20

Russian names and I wanted to understand

24:23

why the emigrates who lived in Brighton

24:25

Beach we’re doing business back when

24:27

Russia and the story ended up being

24:31

nothing to do with that and totally in

24:34

my old haunting grounds which was the

24:35

New York City Board of Elections records

24:37

because what had happened is that the

24:41

Trump there were there was an email

24:43

chain showing that the Trump adult

24:45

children had lied about the number of

24:46

units sold at the Trump Soho and did it

24:51

knowingly and which is a violation of

24:54

various laws in New York felony laws so

24:56

they were being investigated by the

24:57

Manhattan da and Trump’s white-collar

25:00

team well-connected I should add one of

25:02

them was the brother-in-law of the

25:05

former DEA and one was a law partner of

25:07

the DEA our former law partner of the

25:11

DEA but they couldn’t make the case go

25:12

away so they brought in Trump’s personal

25:14

attorney mark Kazu ‘its who up and also

25:17

happened to be one of the largest donors

25:19

to the Manhattan da and the case was

25:24

closed over the objection

25:27

the prosecutors so we did this story

25:31

with ProPublica in The New Yorker and

25:33

then afterwards we sat down and we

25:34

thought okay we should follow up so we

25:35

put on a big whiteboard all of these

25:37

questions and we were looking like what

25:39

are we gonna do we want to understand

25:40

this deal we want to understand that

25:41

deal we won’t understand India and then

25:44

we realized actually the question is the

25:46

story and that is what Trump Inc came

25:49

out of it’s a set it’s an open

25:51

investigation which has turned out to be

25:53

I mean people love the idea of an

25:56

investigation one of the stories that we

25:58

have not yet solved

26:00

partly because Trump has sued to block

26:03

the subpoenas that might have shed light

26:04

is what was happening with his

26:07

connections with Deutsche Bank in the

26:09

period prior to the election and we did

26:13

an episode saying well we don’t know

26:15

what happened literally we don’t know

26:18

what happened we don’t know if there was

26:19

money laundering but we are gonna tell

26:21

you all of the strange things that have

26:23

happened with Deutsche Bank they were at

26:25

the time that they were doing business

26:27

with Trump

26:28

they were sanctioned by New York

26:29

regulators for doing hundreds of

26:31

millions for laundering hundreds of

26:32

millions of dollars from Moscow to

26:34

London in New York so all of this was

26:37

going on at the same time they had no

26:38

money laundering controls and when we

26:42

when I started the Edit the episode and

26:45

we have a very intensive editing process

26:47

and one of the editors said I think you

26:49

need to tell people that you don’t know

26:51

what the end of the story is so that is

26:54

sort of thematically what Trump is is we

26:56

don’t know what the end is but we are

26:58

involved in this process of unravelling

27:02

and documenting and bringing people in

27:05

to help us solve it many people that

27:08

have we have reported on have been

27:11

indicted or gone to prison after we

27:14

wrote about them sometimes it seems to

27:16

be happening so fast that we can’t keep

27:20

up so I mean we wrote about live par na

27:23

San Diego Fuhrman and then the next

27:24

thing we know they were indicted in the

27:25

Southern District of New York I want to

27:31

ask you to read somewhere yes so this

27:35

section is called dirt

27:37

and it’s the end of the section story I

27:39

feel like I need to explain something

27:42

before I read this so Jerrod kutner’s

27:48

grandmother was a survivor of the

27:50

Holocaust and she lived in a town called

27:54

novogrudok in Northeast Poland where she

27:57

had been middle to upper-middle class

28:00

and there was a pretty thriving Jewish

28:01

community there and her family was

28:07

subject to all kinds of brutality mass

28:10

murders shootings there were tens of

28:14

thousands of Jews in the area by the

28:15

summer of 1943 there were hundreds and

28:19

one of the things that I found

28:22

remarkable from reading Jared Kushner’s

28:24

grandmother’s testimony because she had

28:25

left this testimony as part of this

28:28

movement where people felt we need to

28:29

document what happened in the Holocaust

28:33

so that it wouldn’t happen again

28:35

and one of the things that I found so

28:39

striking was how she kept talking about

28:42

whatever happened they were like this is

28:45

the worst thing that can happen so the

28:47

worst thing that could happen is that

28:49

the Soviet Union could take over and

28:51

then the next worst thing that could

28:52

happen was the Nazis could take over and

28:54

make them wear yellow stars and walk in

28:57

the middle of the street but surely it

28:59

couldn’t get worse than that and it just

29:02

kept getting worse and worse and worse

29:04

so from tens of thousands of Jews to

29:06

three hundred Jews they finally came to

29:08

the realization that they were going to

29:10

die that they had not been chosen by God

29:12

to live the Nazis were going to kill

29:16

them as soon as they were done with them

29:17

so they dug a tunnel they used spoons or

29:23

whatever they could find Forks and they

29:25

dug out bags of dirt and they hid it in

29:28

the wall so the Nazis would know that

29:30

they were building the tunnel and one

29:34

night on the eve of the Jewish High

29:36

Holidays they all crawled out to

29:39

foot-wide tunnel and they crawled out

29:43

maybe the length of three football

29:44

fields which is there probably a good

29:47

metaphor for tonight and they got under

29:50

the barbed wire and everybody

29:51

got out you know some of the people

29:52

including Jared Kushner’s grandmother’s

29:54

brother ran in the wrong direction

29:58

and were killed by the Nazis so all of

30:00

that is important for you to know before

30:02

I read this part this part is about

30:05

Jared Kushner right after the election

30:09

at this time it wasn’t even clear to

30:12

many Americans that Jared Kushner would

30:14

be joining the administration but the

30:15

Russians had figured out that Jared had

30:17

rare influence over his father-in-law

30:19

Putin kept opening fronts and his

30:22

maneuvers to reach Jared in addition to

30:24

oven and Dimitri owed to oligarchs he

30:26

sent his ambassador Sergei kiss-kiss

30:29

black know now Masha is making me say

30:33

all the Russian names out loud kiss lack

30:35

to create a third channel Kirchner

30:38

agreed to meet even though after the

30:40

election he said he couldn’t remember a

30:41

kiss Lex name Kushner has offered this

30:44

as evidence he couldn’t have colluded

30:45

with Russia during the campaign on

30:47

November 30th kiss lack Kushner and

30:50

Michael Flynn the incoming National

30:51

Security Advisor met at Trump Tower

30:53

Flynn it later had merged had secretly

30:56

accepted $600,000 from a firm linked to

30:58

the Turkish government for lobbying work

31:00

that coincided with the campaign

31:02

I asked ambassador kis lack if he would

31:04

identify the best person whether the

31:06

Ambassador or someone else with wimped

31:09

with whom to have direct discussions and

31:11

who had contact with his president

31:12

Kushner later said this luck did have

31:15

someone he wanted to speak with Kushner

31:17

his generals he asked Kushner if there

31:19

was a secure communications line they

31:21

could use Kushner came up with a

31:22

suggestion how about if they use the

31:24

communications equipment at the Russian

31:26

embassy this was a shocking suggestion

31:29

shocking suggestion to kiss lack that

31:31

the incoming American administration

31:33

albiet a friendly one could get access

31:35

to Russia’s most secret methods of

31:37

communications its inner sanctum

31:39

alarmed he said no he transmitted his

31:41

alarm to Moscow these communications

31:44

were monitored and recorded by US

31:46

intelligence agencies that’s how they

31:48

found out the president-elect son in

31:50

law’s talks with the Russian ambassador

31:53

kiss lack pursue Jared for yet another

31:56

meeting Jared was by now impatient he

31:58

decided that kiss lack didn’t really

32:00

have enough juice with Moscow but kiss

32:02

lack was persistent and set up a meeting

32:04

with Jared’s assist

32:05

at that meeting kiss left asked for yet

32:07

another appointment with Jared this time

32:10

is Kushner put it with a person named

32:11

Sergei Gorka who said he was a banker

32:14

the head of Venetian home bank or VEB

32:16

the Russian state-owned Development Bank

32:18

Gourcuff Kushner was told had a direct

32:21

line to the Russian president who could

32:23

give insight into how Putin was voting

32:25

the new administration and best ways to

32:27

work together so they met I agreed to

32:31

meet mr. Gourcuff Jared later wrote

32:33

because the Ambassador had been so

32:35

insistent said he had a direct

32:36

relationship with the president and

32:38

because mr. cork Cove was only in New

32:40

York for a couple days

32:41

I made ruin my schedule for the meeting

32:43

that occurred the next day on December

32:45

13th Kushner saw no conflict for the

32:48

son-in-law of the incoming American

32:49

president a real estate developer with a

32:51

billion dollar debt coming due to meet

32:54

with a banker for the Russian state to

32:56

talk about foreign policy the meeting

32:59

took place not in Trump Tower

33:00

but at Tom barracks colony capital

33:03

building in Manhattan at the time of the

33:05

meeting the EB was and remained the

33:07

subject of US sanctions imposed in the

33:09

wake of the Crimea invasion Gourcuff

33:12

told Kushner a little about his bank in

33:14

the Russian economy he said it was

33:16

friendly with President Putin Kushner

33:18

said an expressed disappointment with US

33:20

Russia relationships under President

33:22

Obama and hopes for a better

33:23

relationship in the future there were no

33:25

discussions about sanctions Kushner said

33:27

or about my company’s business

33:29

transactions real estate projects loans

33:31

banking arrangements or any private

33:32

businesses of any kind VB disputed this

33:36

characterization telling The Washington

33:38

Post that the session was held as a part

33:41

of a new business strategy and was

33:43

conducted with Kushner and his role as

33:44

the head of his family’s real estate

33:46

business when questioned by Muller’s

33:49

investigators Jared Kushner wanted to

33:52

make sure they understood how little he

33:54

thought of this meeting to advance his

33:55

argument that he couldn’t have been

33:57

conspiring with Russian state actors he

33:59

said he did not engage in any

34:00

preparation for the meeting and that no

34:02

one on the transition team even did a

34:05

Google search for Gore Cobbs name but

34:09

Gourcuff another of putin’s wealthy and

34:12

powerful emissaries had done his

34:14

research Gourcuff carried with him two

34:17

gifts

34:18

gifts that showed a careful and

34:20

deliberate investigation into the person

34:23

he was meeting with one was a piece of

34:26

art from novogrudok the village where my

34:27

grandparents were from in Belarus and

34:30

the other was a bag of dirt from that

34:33

same village as Jared Kushner later

34:35

explained during the campaign dirt on

34:39

Hillary Clinton had when the currency

34:41

Russians had tried to trade now the

34:44

Russians were giving Jared Kushner a

34:46

literal bag of dirt reminiscent of the

34:49

bags of dirt that Rhea Kushner and her

34:51

family had dug from the earth and hidden

34:53

in the walls of the novogrudok ghetto so

34:55

the Nazis wouldn’t know they had dug a

34:57

tunnel to safety had it not been for

35:00

those bags of dirt Ray would have never

35:02

made it out of the ghetto to the forest

35:04

to the refugee camp or to New York where

35:07

she had four children including one

35:09

named after her brother who died during

35:11

the escape and whose own son Jared Corey

35:15

Kushner was now one of the most powerful

35:17

people in a new and uncertain world

35:20

slinking again towards darkness

35:32

so like I said it’s it’s an incredibly

35:35

written book and you know it’s such an

35:39

interesting thing to bring that kind of

35:41

melancholy writing to an investigative

35:44

project but I wonder what it felt like

35:47

to research and write

35:49

yeah what’s really hard I mean it was

35:52

really hard

35:53

the hardwood there were a couple of

35:55

things that were really hard one of the

35:57

really hardest parts was I didn’t really

36:01

know that much about the Holocaust in

36:03

Poland and I had known about Jared

36:07

Kushner his grandmother’s testimony and

36:08

I was speaking to a friend of mine who

36:10

knows more about Holocaust Studies than

36:12

I do and he said well is it true and I

36:14

said wait what it wouldn’t be true and

36:16

he said no and I realized okay I have to

36:19

I have to report this the way I would

36:21

report anything else so I did I listened

36:28

to her sisters testimony I went to the

36:30

Holocaust Research Center I asked them

36:32

for every testimony from everybody else

36:34

who had survived and gotten out through

36:36

the tunnel and I read all the

36:37

testimonies largely I mean the stories

36:44

matched up and Jared Krishna’s

36:46

grandmother story largely was true there

36:48

was a places where people sort of

36:49

disagreed about numbers but I mean who

36:50

could know did something happen to 20

36:52

people did something happen to 50 people

36:54

the essential facts everybody told the

36:57

same story so I said okay that is that

36:59

is true but it was hard hard to listen

37:03

to that and especially Rhea Kushner

37:08

describing her growing dread for example

37:11

she talked about how when she was a

37:13

teenager they heard stories about

37:15

Germans coming into southern Poland and

37:18

killing Jews and their response was that

37:20

can’t be happening

37:22

who would do that so it was hard really

37:26

getting deep into the details of this

37:28

and watching what is going on now which

37:32

is not the Holocaust I want to be clear

37:34

but many of the initial conditions for

37:39

the Holocaust to happen like the assault

37:41

on truth like an assent

37:43

sort of set of or a sense of moral

37:47

relativism that there’s no right there’s

37:49

no wrong that anything goes so long as

37:51

you have the majority of people saying

37:52

that it goes sir seeing that on two

37:55

tracks was was difficult it’s I mean now

38:00

that the book is out in public and every

38:01

and I have been able to share the story

38:02

it’s it feels easier and easier to tell

38:05

it because it was much harder to sort of

38:08

be alone in that world of listening to

38:10

all of those testimonies and so so deep

38:12

in and it never it never got easier this

38:17

month we did an episode of our podcast

38:20

Trump Inc in which we had tape from

38:23

Jared Kushner as grandmothers various

38:25

testimonies and I had to stop in the

38:30

middle of tracking and go outside and

38:32

take a walk because it was so intense

38:33

and difficult to listen to the story of

38:35

what happened to them so that’s I mean

38:40

that’s a that’s a really difficult

38:43

challenge for a writer to you know to

38:46

and to inhabit that world right of

38:49

tragedy and then there’s a different

38:52

challenge which is to inhabit the world

38:54

of extremely unlikable people yeah but

38:57

like these extremely likeable people

38:59

have this tragic backstory yeah and I

39:02

don’t even understand how you wrap your

39:04

mind I mean I think so

39:09

American oligarchs is a story in five

39:12

acts and I think that one of the things

39:16

I’ve learned from other stories that are

39:19

in five acts is that people are

39:20

incredibly complicated and there’s no

39:24

simple sense of somebody is sort of good

39:26

forever and their ancestors are good

39:28

forever or because this horrible thing

39:29

happened to somebody they are a good

39:31

person

39:32

and I wanted to tell all of the moral

39:37

complexities in this story and I mean

39:40

you know standard journalistic practice

39:43

of wanting to know what is what is the

39:45

good in these people and in their

39:48

background so

39:53

and then I also think I mean the other

39:55

thing is is that it’s a story about

39:56

democracy which i think is so important

40:00

because it’s a story about the decisions

40:02

that have been made as a country by a

40:04

bipartisan group of elected officials

40:06

that have eroded our system and eroded

40:09

our system and each time there was a

40:10

body blow to the system I mean you know

40:14

when I started covering campaign finance

40:16

and corruption was so easy because you

40:17

would go and you’d look up a campaign

40:19

contribution and then you’d look what

40:21

happened to you know what could that

40:22

have possibly 75 thousand dollar

40:24

contribution but and then you would find

40:26

something like oh yes it was the scoping

40:31

study for the east side access project

40:33

for the MTA and there’s always some it

40:35

wasn’t hard it was like shooting fish in

40:36

a barrel once you sort of figured out

40:37

the system it is so hard now because the

40:40

systems have been so broken down and

40:43

each time the systems have been broken

40:44

down people have said on a bipartisan

40:47

level okay we’ll figure out a way to

40:49

weather this but no I mean I think that

40:53

the answer is you know this is the 10th

40:55

anniversary of Citizens United decision

40:56

and our democracy really has not

40:59

weathered that decision so it’s not like

41:03

it’s a story with a happy ending

41:06

but it’s a story that I felt compelled

41:09

to tell the other thing was is I got

41:10

sort of obsessed with the Broadway show

41:12

Hades town which is a story where you

41:17

know you know basically from the first

41:18

minute that it’s gonna have a terrible

41:19

outcome and you read it believing that

41:22

actually Morpheus is not going to look

41:26

back and it’s all gonna be good and

41:28

they’re gonna get out and then he

41:30

doesn’t because that’s the Greek myth

41:32

it’s not really a spoiler alert then

41:34

they tell it again and I felt like

41:36

that’s the sort of place that I felt

41:38

like I just have to tell this story

41:40

because what else can I do

41:42

and one of the many things I appreciate

41:44

about the book is that you keep

41:48

reminding the reader that you actually

41:50

have to think about you know how we

41:52

think about democracy how we think about

41:54

taxes how we think about wealth how we

41:56

think about social equality and that and

41:58

the Trump is not in that sense

42:00

an aberration totally not we’ve been on

42:03

this road for a long time

42:06

what I know a lot of questions remain

42:09

open for you at the end of the book but

42:11

give us a couple that you really want to

42:13

get answers to well I would like to see

42:22

Trump’s tax returns and I would really

42:24

really like to understand his business

42:27

[Applause]

42:30

you know there are so many I mean one of

42:36

the things and I understand this is a

42:37

very very emotional week for for a lot

42:41

of people I mean it’s one thing to know

42:42

that this Senate is going to acquit the

42:45

president it’s another to see them doing

42:47

it and and have that actually experience

42:50

but this is not we’re not yet at the end

42:55

of the of consequences but we’re sort of

42:58

hanging you know it’s kind of like one

43:00

of those movies where somebody is like

43:02

hanging over a cliff and somebody’s

43:03

holding on to them by one arm and that

43:05

they’re about to fall out like that’s

43:06

sort of where we are because three cases

43:09

are going to the Supreme Court including

43:11

the one where Trump’s lawyer is arguing

43:14

that he can shoot somebody on Fifth

43:16

Avenue and not even be investigated so

43:19

long as he’s president I was in the

43:20

courtroom when Trump’s lawyer said that

43:22

and I went and I wrote a story and I

43:25

went on the radio and I was like Trump’s

43:27

lawyer said he could shoot somebody on

43:29

Fifth Avenue and not be investigated and

43:31

then I got off the air and I was like

43:32

could what I have said to six million

43:35

people

43:35

be true can that be right is that what

43:38

they said so I had to go back and like

43:39

listen to the whole thing to make sure I

43:41

hadn’t gotten wrong no I hadn’t gotten

43:42

it wrong so Trump lost that case the

43:46

Second Circuit ruled no that is not the

43:48

case that is you know it is repugnant to

43:51

our constitutional system and you know

43:54

there was another decision another case

43:55

where a judge said the president is not

43:57

King so these were not ambiguous lower

43:59

court decisions federal court decisions

44:02

Circuit Court decisions and the Supreme

44:05

Court took them anyway so they’re

44:08

hearing them on March 20th they’ll rule

44:11

at the end of this term and for me I

44:15

think like that is the biggest remaining

44:17

question is what happens because

44:21

if the Supreme Court rules that the

44:25

president cannot even be investigated

44:27

I just don’t know I mean I think the

44:30

judicial bans has been really good there

44:33

have been a lot of really good lower

44:34

court decisions that have helped us get

44:36

out information and release facts but if

44:39

the Supreme Court rules that I think we

44:40

will be in even worse trouble than we’re

44:43

in now and I have a scarier question for

44:48

you before before we go to audience

44:53

questions one last one so couldn’t be

44:57

scary to you mosh how you wrote a story

44:58

book about totalitarian totalitarian

45:02

totalitarianism reclaiming Russia it’s

45:04

certainly well actually it’s awesome a

45:07

great book

45:09

I mean you decided to look at this and

45:15

the coming together of the Kushner’s and

45:17

the trumps mm-hmm which is not actually

45:19

what produced our current president yeah

45:22

and I have to ask I mean are you

45:26

thinking that that’s the future I yeah

45:31

but just to sort of walk through the

45:34

logic I mean I will say this I don’t so

45:36

I got out of the prediction game

45:38

November 9th 2016 and I covered you know

45:42

six national presidential elections so

45:44

going back to the 90s and so many other

45:46

elections and when you carve our

45:48

elections the basic thing that people

45:49

want you to know want to know is who’s

45:51

gonna win so every story you do has to

45:54

sort of somehow feel like people are

45:57

getting an answer to that question and

45:58

that is what happens in campaign

46:00

coverage I don’t know who’s gonna win

46:04

but I do think that Trump has taken over

46:10

the Republican Party has commandeered

46:13

mechanisms of democracy with help from a

46:17

lot of you know wealthy people who

46:18

believe in gerrymandering and who you

46:23

know believe in voter suppression etc

46:26

etc so I think we’re I mean I think that

46:31

the answer to all the darkies always

46:32

more

46:33

see so I think that you know I don’t

46:36

feel hopeless about that but I think

46:40

people should take it very very

46:41

seriously

46:42

I also think that since implied in your

46:45

question is what about Ivanka Trump I as

46:49

I mean I read all of Monica Trump’s

46:53

social media feeds and watched someone

46:56

how to watched so many episodes of The

47:00

Apprentice so many and one of the things

47:07

that I’ve noticed about Ivanka Trump is

47:09

you know she speaks like someone who

47:11

believes like she could run for office

47:12

someday and she’s very careful in what

47:15

she says you will notice that Ivanka

47:17

Trump almost she’s not like Don junior

47:20

who by the way Don junior okay just have

47:23

to say Don jr. had $94,000 bulk-buy from

47:27

the RNC of his book so he would be a

47:29

best-seller which is like the most

47:31

trumpian story ever because it’s like

47:33

manufactured success being presented as

47:37

actual success which is supposed to

47:39

generate more success so I only have you

47:43

all not 94 thousand dollars from the RNC

47:45

so please buy a lot of books tonight and

47:47

buy if you have one buy one for your

47:49

friends okay so that’s the end of the

47:50

commercial but Don jr. is a very when he

47:53

speaks he’s very dark very very dark

47:56

Ivanka Trump is not Ivanka Trump talks

47:59

in this upbeat way about the economy is

48:01

going great the Trump tax cuts have been

48:04

great for working-class people she talks

48:07

it in in an empathic way there was a

48:10

study about people who had a four

48:12

hundred dollar bill it would destroy

48:14

them economically but she presents as if

48:18

the Trump economic plans were somehow a

48:23

solution to these problems and she talks

48:26

about I mean she went to Africa and she

48:29

poses with children and she went to

48:34

India and talked about all that her

48:35

administration had done for women in

48:37

minorities and so she acts like somebody

48:41

who is preserving her options

48:46

that I can say okay so we have audience

48:51

questions one is do you have any insight

48:53

into why so many Americans being hurt by

48:56

Trump budget continue to support him

48:59

yeah I mean I think it’s really

49:03

complicated because I mean I think a

49:05

whole huge big theme of this book is

49:08

immigration and refugees and I think

49:13

what has happened is that there’s a

49:15

transferring of blame which is so people

49:19

think if there’s something is going

49:21

badly it’s because of immigrants and

49:22

refugees and if something is going well

49:25

it’s because of Trump and then I also

49:27

think it’s because of you know this

49:28

constant stream of spin about how much

49:33

better things are so I think that people

49:36

have a sense of hanging on to something

49:40

which is which is not their experience

49:43

but wanting so badly to believe it

49:45

because Trump hasn’t done such a good

49:46

job of selling that he is the person who

49:50

is their Savior

49:53

what is the role of privatization and

49:56

deregulation in trumpism yeah well I

49:59

mean I do think that is everything to do

50:01

with oligarchy and oh by the way I feel

50:04

like I need to say the last word of my

50:07

book is hope and it’s not I mean I I

50:12

really tried to make that hope earned

50:15

like I didn’t just say okay here’s 400

50:18

pages of darkness and now have hope so

50:23

so you’ll have to read to the end of the

50:25

book to find out how I I get to that

50:27

argument I’m sorry what was the question

50:32

right so I know why I thought about that

50:35

because in my epilogue I talked a lot

50:37

about sort of oligarchy and sort of

50:41

nativism being two heads of a Hydra and

50:46

what is going on with from with the

50:50

destruction of government is that he is

50:53

increasingly turning over the power and

50:56

the money which for him are so

50:58

intertwined

50:59

to a group of private businessman so the

51:03

insiders can stay on the inside and

51:05

everybody else is on the outside and

51:07

that is the model of the Trump

51:10

presidency so everything that he does to

51:13

privatize to deregulate is all about

51:17

giving the favors to the very very

51:19

wealthy who are then in turn going to

51:21

come back and do things for him and I

51:24

mean I think we already see this we see

51:27

this with some of the people who control

51:28

the biggest companies in America

51:30

Facebook Apple they are not confronting

51:34

Trump Google there they’re just not and

51:38

as and that is sort of how we are seeing

51:42

the system play out the privatization

51:44

deregulation they can roll up their

51:46

wealth even faster and faster and it’s

51:50

totally related to the destruction of

51:52

government because the tax bill dropped

51:55

the tax cuts and job act of 2017 has is

51:58

going to create a trillion dollar

52:00

deficit this year and so there is sort

52:03

of no money to run the government and

52:05

then everything becomes you know in the

52:08

hands of private business people who do

52:12

you think funded and inserted para nós

52:15

and Thurman into Trump’s orders and why

52:17

uh so we have I don’t know the answer

52:20

but we have an episode of our podcast

52:22

called The Diplomat the mockers and the

52:25

oligarchs which shows yeah it’s good it

52:31

has it has even a song from Fiddler on

52:35

the Roof in it you’ll see and you I mean

52:41

almost certainly there are I mean we

52:43

know that there are financial interests

52:44

involved now from what para nós has said

52:46

from the deals that he was doing and we

52:48

heard him talk to the president about it

52:50

I don’t know how many people listen to

52:52

that tape but it was extraordinary

52:54

so Trump is at a super PAC which he’s

52:57

not actually supposed to be really

52:58

coordinating with but all these rich

53:00

people come and they’re like we want

53:01

this we want that in part us was talking

53:03

about I want to do these energy deals in

53:05

Ukraine so we already know that there

53:07

were financial interests we know that

53:10

Parnassus was working for ukrainian

53:12

oligarch name

53:13

Demitri fear Tash who has been indicted

53:15

in the United States for violating the

53:18

Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and has

53:20

been fighting extradition extradition

53:22

since 2015 in Vienna and who seizes his

53:26

personal enemy Joe Biden because he

53:28

believes that Joe Biden is responsible

53:31

for his prosecution so there’s at the

53:35

very least a coincidence of interests

53:38

between fear Tash Parnassus Rudy

53:41

Giuliani and Donald Trump last audience

53:46

question can you talk about trust and

53:48

who these two families tend to trust

53:52

often to their own and our detriment

53:56

well I mean Trump trusts himself first

54:02

he trusts his family trusts you know his

54:05

son-in-law I mean I think one of the

54:06

reasons that Jared Kushner is sort of

54:08

this enormous ly powerful person is

54:10

because he comes from a family where

54:13

loyalty is valued and he that and he is

54:18

extremely faithful to his father-in-law

54:22

also one of the things that we’ve

54:25

learned disturbingly is that a lot of

54:29

the information and the narrative that

54:30

Trump is discussing about Ukraine he got

54:32

directly from Putin or Viktor Orban we

54:36

just that is actually fact now which is

54:39

kind of startling and and he told people

54:41

in his government where’d you learn this

54:43

oh I learned it from Viktor Orban or I

54:45

learned it from Vladimir Putin so I

54:47

think that you’ve read any of Marcia’s

54:50

books I think you’ll know that Vladimir

54:52

Putin is not a trust trustworthy source

54:54

and yet that does seem to be who is

54:57

informing our president at this moment

54:59

and disturbingly I mean one of the

55:03

things that’s very disturbing about this

55:05

impeachment trial so I mean it was sort

55:06

of a fascinating and disturbing thing

55:08

because there was all of this testimony

55:10

from all of these US government

55:11

officials and I’ve never seen anything

55:12

like it I’d never really understood how

55:14

the mechanisms of government worked and

55:17

how diplomacy was done and Fiona Hill

55:22

John Bolton’s chief of staff which is

55:24

like such historically so hard for me to

55:26

get my head around

55:27

but she said this is Russian propaganda

55:29

don’t believe it and people just simply

55:34

rejected that they were sort of like I

55:36

don’t want to hear anyone here and that

55:37

was sort of the way that Congress has

55:40

reacted so I think it is a really good

55:44

question to ask where President Trump

55:45

gets his information and I think it is

55:47

why it is so important to and I don’t

55:52

think I’m alone in this I think there’s

55:53

a lot of journalists that are trying to

55:55

document what’s going on but the Fourth

55:57

Estate is in the Constitution and I

55:59

think that you know I feel an obligation

56:02

to keep doing the kinds of things that I

56:05

do because it creates the possibility of

56:10

a future where truth will be embraced

56:13

once again

56:17

[Applause]

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