Transcript
00:03
[Music]
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welcome everybody I’m Nathaniel Deutsch
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I’m the director of the humanities
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Institute here at UC Santa Cruz and I
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want to welcome everyone here to see
00:17
Jaron Lanier
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he’ll be talking tonight I also want to
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welcome everybody who is watching this
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on a live stream that we have running at
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the same time we’re very thankful for
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the support from the Peggy Downes Baskin
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humanities endowment for
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interdisciplinary ethics for supporting
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this lecture we’re also very thankful
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for the Andrew W mellon foundation for
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supporting year-long series of events
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that will be hosting at the humanities
00:43
Institute on data and democracy and
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Jaron Lanier stalk is going to be
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launching that series in addition to the
00:52
event tonight we will be hosting in the
00:55
coming year a series of other events
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including questions that matter at
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khumba jazz center on January 29th which
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we invite all of you to I know there’s
01:06
some of you have been to some of our
01:07
past questions that matter events and
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also an event that we have been planning
01:13
actually for a while and has become even
01:16
more necessary because of the events of
01:18
recent days and that is a conversation
01:21
on anti-semitism in the internet which
01:25
we will be hosting on a date to be
01:27
announced
01:28
I want to thank there’s many people I
01:30
could thank but I’ll leave out the names
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I’ve already cleared it with them I’m
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just gonna thank thank their units the
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humanities Institute staff which is as
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always amazing and then the staff of the
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humanities divisions development office
01:45
which is also always amazing so thank
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you everyone for all the work that went
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into this event tonight’s program will
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include a lecture followed by again and
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I think some music followed by a
01:58
question-and-answer session and book
01:59
signing and I’ll be talking a little bit
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more about the book signing later
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questions and answers will be
02:04
facilitated by note cards and we have
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some uh sure’s that are moving around
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the room and if you would like to
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a question please raise your hand now
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and they will hand you cards and you can
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write out the the question they’ll pick
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it up and then they’ll give it to me and
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I will be facilitating the question and
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answer that way so I’ve had the pleasure
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of spending the day with Jaron and I can
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tell you that he is a fascinating person
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a very generous person as well with his
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time he met with some students earlier
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today and had a conversation with them
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which was wonderful for him to do and
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tonight he will be giving a lecture
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we’re lucky to have him here he’s a path
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breaking computer scientist a virtual
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reality pioneer if I’m not mistaken you
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coined the phrase mutual virtual reality
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he’s a composer and artist and author
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who writes and numerous topics including
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technology the social impact of
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Technology the philosophy of
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consciousness and information internet
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politics and the future of humanism and
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one of the things that we believe in so
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strongly at the humanities Institute is
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that conversations about technology
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cannot simply be left to a computer
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scientists no offense to any computer
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scientists in the room we love you too
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but we also think that it is critical to
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have people who work in the humanities
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involved in those conversations and this
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is part of why we are doing this tonight
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he is the author of best-selling and
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award-winning books including you are
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not a gadget a manifesto and who owns
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the future most recently he’s the author
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of 10 arguments for deleting your social
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media account right now his lecture
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tonight is entitled how the internet
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failed and how to recreate it please
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join me in welcoming Jaron Lanier
03:56
[Applause]
04:04
hey how are you all any students here is
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this all this is the the adult okay good
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good ah good excellent there for you
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here I’m going to start with some music
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because some of what I have to talk
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about is not the most cheerful stuff
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because our times aren’t universally
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cheerful lately and music is how I
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survive anyway any of you heard me play
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this thing okay
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[Music]
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[Applause]
05:44
[Music]
05:57
[Music]
06:06
[Music]
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you all know weight is up you all know
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what that is right yeah it’s called a
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cab
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it’s from Laos it’s arguably the origin
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of digital information if you look at it
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it’s got a parallel set of objects that
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are either off Iran there’s 16 of them
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in this one 16-bit number they go back
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many thousands of years they appear to
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be older than the abacus in ancient
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times they were traded across the Silk
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Route from Asia and were known to the
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ancient Greeks and Romans the Romans
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made their own copy which was called a
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hydrolyse and it was a giant egotistical
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Roman version that was so big it has to
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be run on Steam it was operated by teams
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of slave boys because despite have
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Festus is best efforts they didn’t have
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computer AI yet and the slave boys
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couldn’t quite operate all the planks
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that open to close the holes and sink
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and so they developed this crossbar
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system and we know about it because
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there’s a surviving hydrolyse believe it
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or not and that automation evolved along
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with the hydrolyse in in two directions
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it turned into the mediaeval pipe organ
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and there were player mechanisms on the
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earliest pipe organs experimentally and
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it also turned into a family of string
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instruments that had various assists
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like the early pre clavichord
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instruments that eventually evolved as
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the piano the notion of automating these
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things was always present so there were
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always attempts to make player pianos
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around Mozart’s time somebody made a
08:18
non-deterministic player piano which
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meant it didn’t play exactly the same
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thing twice Mozart was inspired by that
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made some music that included dice rolls
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but another person who was inspired was
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a guy named jacquard who used the
08:34
similar mechanism to make a programmable
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loom that in turn inspired somebody
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named Charles Babbage to make a
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programmable calculator and his daughter
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ada
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to articulate a lot of ideas about
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software for the first time and what it
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meant to be a programmer and then in
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turn that all inspired a dimm’d fellow
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named Alan Turing to formalize the whole
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thing and invent the modern computer so
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there’s a direct line this is it this is
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the origin of digital information now of
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course it’s not the only line and if I
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was if I was paid to be a historian I
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wouldn’t have told you that story with
09:14
such authority and yet I’m not so this
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is a charming tale it’s a happy place to
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begin it’s a it’s a reminder that
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inventions can bring delight and joy and
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it’s part of why I’m a technologist but
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unfortunately we have some matters to
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discuss here that are not quite so happy
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we live in a world that has been
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darkening lately it’s not just a
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historical lensing effect where it feels
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worse than ever it’s bad in a new way
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there’s something weird going on and I
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want to begin by trying to distinguish
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what’s going on with our present moment
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of darkness as compared to earlier times
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because this is tricky
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it’s almost impossible I think to not be
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embedded in one’s moment in time it’s
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almost impossible not to have illusions
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due to where you’re situated right and
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so I don’t claim to have perfected the
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art of absolute objectivity at all I’m
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struggling and I’m sure that I don’t
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have it quite right but I want to share
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with you my attempts up to this
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now the first thing to say is that by
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many extremely crucial measures we’re
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living in spectacularly good times where
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the beneficiaries of a steady
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improvement in the average standard of
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living in the world we’ve seen a
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lowering of most kinds of violence we’ve
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seen an improvement in health in most
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ways and for most people it’s actually
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kind of remarkable in many ways these
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are really good times and those trend
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lines go way back over over centuries
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we’ve seen steady improvement of
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societies kind of gotten its act
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together and we’ve been able to hold on
11:26
to a few memories about things that
11:28
didn’t work so we’ve tried new things
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we’ve we’ve developed relatively more
11:33
humane societies and relatively better
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science and better Public Health and
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it’s amazing it’s wonderful it’s
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something that’s a precious gift to us
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from earlier generations that we should
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be unendingly grateful for and I always
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keep that in mind I always keep in mind
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that just in our modern human-made world
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just the fact you can walk into a
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building and it doesn’t collapse on us
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is a tribute to the people who made it
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and the people who funded them and
12:07
regulated them and the people that
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taught them there’s like this whole
12:11
edifice of love that’s apparent all the
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time that we can forget about and during
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times that feel dark one of the
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antidotes is gratitude and just in these
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simple things
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I feel extraordinary gratitude and it
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reminds me of how overall there’s been
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so much success in the project of
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Science and Technology it’s so easy to
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lose sight of that and yet there is
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something really screwy going on that
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seems to me to be fairly distinct from
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previous problems it’s a new sneaky
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problem we’ve brought upon ourselves and
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we have yet to fully invent our way out
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of it
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so what exactly is going on
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I think at a most fundamental level
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we’ve created a way of managing
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information among ourselves that
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detaches us from reality I think that is
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the most serious problem if the only
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problem was that our technology makes us
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at times more batty
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more irritable paranoid more
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mean-spirited more separated more lonely
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if that kind of problem was what we were
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talking about that would be important it
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would be serious it would be important
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to address it but what really scares me
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about the present moment is that I fear
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we’ve lost the ability to have a
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societal conversation about actual
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reality about things like climate change
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the need to have adequate food and water
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for peak population which is coming the
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need for dealing with changes in the
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profile of diseases that are coming
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there’s so many so many issues are real
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they’re not just fantasy issues their
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existential real issues climate above
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all and the question is are we still
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able to have a conversation about
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reality or not
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that becomes the existential question of
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the moment and so far the way we’ve been
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running things has been pulling us away
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from reality that scares me and I think
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that’s the core darkness that we have to
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address we can survive everything else
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but we cannot survive if we fail to
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address that now in the title of this
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lecture I promised a little bit of
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history how the internet got screwed up
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or something like that so I’ll tell you
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a bit about that but I want to focus
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more on trying to characterize this
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issue a little more tightly and trying
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to explain at least my thoughts on how
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to remedy it and maybe some other
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people’s thoughts to try to give you a
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bit of a sense of it
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now to begin with one of the infuriating
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aspects of our current problem is that
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it was well foreseen in advance that’s
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the thing about it nobody can claim that
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they were surprised and I can point to
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many folks who were talking about this
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in advance I’m good as good a starting
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place as any is to talk about iam
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foresters story the machine stops who
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here has read it ok well a few people
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terrifying right all right
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the machine stops was written I believe
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in 1907 is that right it might have been
15:43
on nine but you know a century in a
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decade ago or so and it foresees a world
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remarkably like ours it’s a world and
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this was written well before touring
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well before any of this stuff
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I mean before there was computation and
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it describes a world of people in front
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of their screens interacting social
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networking doing search and getting lost
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in a bunch of stupid and
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finally when the machine experiences a
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crash there’s this calamity on earth and
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people become so dependent on it that
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the loss of this machine becomes a
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calamity in itself and at the very end
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of the book people are crawling out from
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their screens and looking at the real
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world and saying oh my god the Sun and
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it’s like this it’s a really amazing
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piece because it’s possibly the most
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precious thing prescient thing that’s
16:37
ever been written at all it was written
16:40
in part as a response to the techie
16:44
utopianism of the day it was a response
16:47
to writers like HG Wells saying wait a
16:50
second these are still going to be
16:52
people we have to think about what this
16:53
will mean to people it’s often the case
16:56
that the first arrive or on a scene has
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a clearer view and can have this kind of
17:01
lucidity that later people find it very
17:03
difficult to achieve and I think
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something like that happens very long
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ago but then honestly we could talk
17:11
about Touring’s last writing just before
17:13
his suicide where he was realizing the
17:16
even though he played as great a role as
17:19
anyone in defeating fascism he hadn’t
17:21
defeated fascism at all because here he
17:24
was being destroyed for his identity you
17:28
all know the story of trade by now it’s
17:30
not obscure anywhere there was a movie
17:31
and everything for a long time I would
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speak to computer science classes nobody
17:35
knew about Turing’s death at all which
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is a scandal but at this point I think
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everyone knows and if you read his final
17:42
writings you read this kind of in a way
17:45
an inner glow of somebody who does have
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some kind of a faith and some kind of a
17:50
stronger Center but also this kind of
17:52
sense of defeat and by the way it’s
17:55
within the context of that that he
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invented artificial intelligence that he
17:58
invented the Turing test and this notion
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of this person who would transcend this
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non person who could transcend sexuality
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and be just this pristine abstract
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platonic being an escaped oppression
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perhaps but anyway so we have that in
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the immediate early generation of
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computer scientists we had Norbert
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Wiener who here has read Norbert Wiener
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I don’t see a single young person’s hand
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up and unfold if you’re young if you’re
18:29
a student and you haven’t read any of
18:30
these people would you please correct
18:31
that and read them seriously you’ll
18:33
you’ll be so happy if you take this
18:34
advice I’m actually read these people so
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Norbert wieners one of the very first
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computer scientists first generation and
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he wrote books that were incredibly
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prescient about this he wrote a book
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called the human use of human beings and
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he pointed out if you could attach a
18:51
computer to input and output devices
18:53
interacting with a person you could get
18:55
algorithms that would enacted adaptive
18:58
behaviors technologies to take control
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of the person and he viewed this as this
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extraordinary moral failure that to be
19:08
avoided any SS thought experiment at the
19:10
end of the book Reese’s well you could
19:12
imagine some kind of global system where
19:13
everybody would have devices on them
19:15
attached to such algorithms that would
19:17
be manipulating them in ways they
19:19
couldn’t quite follow and this would
19:21
bring humanity to a disastrous end but
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of course this is only a thought
19:24
experiment no such thing is feasible
19:25
because there wouldn’t be enough
19:27
bandwidth on the radio waves and all
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this
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you know he then explained why it
19:30
couldn’t be done and of course we built
19:32
exactly the thing he warned about I
19:35
could give many other examples I worked
19:40
on it myself in 92 I wrote an essay
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describing how little AI BOTS could
19:45
create fake social perception in order
19:47
to confuse people and throw elections
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big deal
19:51
lots of people were prescient about this
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this wasn’t a surprise we knew and
19:57
that’s the thing that’s so depressing
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there was a lot of good cautionary
20:03
science fiction there were a lot of good
20:05
cautionary essays there were good
20:07
cautionary technical writings and we
20:10
ignored all of it we ignored it all how
20:15
could that have happened so I I would
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rather tell the story about how
20:23
everybody was surprised and a lot of
20:25
people who are entrepreneurs in Silicon
20:27
Valley were surprised but only because
20:29
they don’t like reading don’t be like
20:33
them so the social history of how
20:39
everything screwed up is a reasonable
20:41
way to talk about the particular way in
20:43
which is screwed up so I’m gonna give it
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a try the first thing to say is that in
20:51
the generation of media technologists
20:57
and artists and viewers from immediately
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before computation went pop in like the
21:03
60s into the 70s into the 80s some of
21:07
the personality dysfunctions and some of
21:10
the craziness was already apparent we
21:11
started to see this notion that anybody
21:14
could be a celebrity and people became
21:16
obsessed with this idea that maybe I
21:17
could be one and maybe there’s something
21:19
wrong with me if I’m not and this kind
21:21
of mass media insecurity obsession thing
21:28
I it’s hard to trace the moment when
21:33
this personality dysfunction really hit
21:35
the mainstream and really started to
21:37
darken the world
21:38
we were talking earlier actually about
21:41
what moment to choose I was thinking
21:42
actually the assassination of John
21:44
Lennon because here you had somebody who
21:46
basically just wanted to be famous for
21:47
being able to be a kill a random killer
21:49
and that was a little new if you look at
21:53
crappy evil people earlier sure there
21:57
was someone to be famous I don’t know
21:58
Bonnie and Clyde or something like that
22:00
but there are a few different things
22:02
about them one thing is that they were
22:06
also stealing money there was a kind of
22:07
a way in which they were I don’t know
22:10
there’s some kind of a part of a system
22:11
they had peers they weren’t they weren’t
22:13
typically total loners the most typical
22:18
profile of really evil person before was
22:21
actually a hyper conformist the typical
22:23
Nazi was actually somebody who didn’t
22:25
want to stand out who just was going
22:27
with the flow and and fully internalized
22:30
the the social milieu around them and
22:32
because it felt normal and that’s that’s
22:34
been a much more typical way that people
22:37
behaved appallingly in history this this
22:40
sort of weird loner celebrity seeker
22:43
thing I’m sure it existed before but it
22:45
started to become prominent I I want to
22:48
say something I’ve never said publicly
22:49
before but it’s just been gnawing at me
22:50
for many years I’m old enough to have
22:53
had some contact back in the day with
22:56
both Marshall McLuhan and Andy Warhol
22:58
who were two figures who had a kind of a
23:01
loose way of talking about this early
23:04
but they didn’t condemn it they just
23:06
stood aloof and say oh we’re super smart
23:09
and wise for being able to see this
23:10
happening and what they should have done
23:11
as they should have said this is
23:13
and I it’s actually really been
23:15
bothering me I’ve never said that before
23:16
I feel it should be said because once
23:19
again the first people on the scene
23:20
sometimes have a kind of a vision and
23:23
they should be judgmental about it the
23:24
way M Forster was and I feel like they
23:27
maybe failed us morally at that point
23:29
because they saw it better than a lot of
23:30
other people maybe than anybody at that
23:32
time anyway that’s maybe not useful to
23:35
say now but at some point it has to be
23:37
said let’s fast forward a little bit
23:41
computation starts to get cheap enough
23:43
that it’s starting to creep out of the
23:44
lab this is the early 1980s
23:48
and here we hit another juncture there
23:54
was this thing that happened oh man I
23:57
was right there for it it was the birth
23:59
of the open free software idea there was
24:01
a friend of mine named Richard Stallman
24:04
any chance Richards here no I guess not
24:08
anyway you never know when saw I saw
24:10
four things anyway Richard had this
24:13
horrible he like one day he just art
24:16
saying oh my god Mike my girlfriend’s
24:18
been killed like my lovers been killed I
24:20
said oh my god that’s horrible but what
24:22
it really was was the software system
24:24
he’d been working on for this kind of
24:26
computer and what had happened is it had
24:28
gone into a commercial mode where the
24:30
companies and it was I think all the
24:31
Lisp machine which would probably nobody
24:33
remembers anymore a sort of early
24:35
attempt to make an AI specialized
24:37
computer and he he was upset he said he
24:43
sort of melded his anger about this with
24:46
a kind of an anti-capitalist feeling
24:47
said no software must be free it must be
24:50
just the thing that’s distributed it
24:51
can’t be property property is theft and
24:54
it really spoke to a lot of people it
24:57
melded with with these other ideas that
24:59
were going on at the time and so it
25:02
became this kind of feeling I would say
25:05
sort of a leftist feeling that was
25:07
profound and remains to this day a lot
25:10
of times if somebody wants to do
25:11
something useful with tech they’ll have
25:13
to put in the word open-source lately
25:15
they also have to put in blockchain and
25:17
so very typically it’s open source it’s
25:19
got blockchain and then then you know
25:21
it’s good so there was this other thing
25:26
going on which is this feeling that the
25:27
purpose of computers was to hide and
25:31
that’s that deserves a little bit of
25:33
explanation
25:34
they were America has always had this
25:37
divide this red-blue divide or whatever
25:40
remember it used to be a north-south
25:41
divide we but we fought one of history’s
25:43
horrible wars once is a civil war and so
25:48
people on what we’d call now the red
25:49
side of the divide we’re very upset
25:54
there was a Democratic president named
25:56
Jimmy Carter that a few people other
25:58
than me in the room might be old enough
25:59
to remember and there was a period when
26:02
there was an Arab oil embargo and we did
26:05
we had long lines at gas stations and he
26:07
imposed a 55 mile an hour speed limit on
26:09
the freeways which a lot of people
26:12
really hated because I wanted to drive
26:13
fast and so this thing sprang up called
26:16
CB radio and CB radios were these little
26:19
analog radios you’d install on your car
26:21
and you’d create a false persona a
26:24
handle and then you’d warn other people
26:27
about where the police were hiding so
26:29
that you could all drive fast
26:30
collectively by sharing information and
26:32
it was all anonymous he could never
26:34
trace it and this thing was huge this
26:36
had as high a profile at the time as
26:38
Twitter does today probably there were
26:40
songs celebrating it it was a really big
26:42
deal but then on the left side of
26:45
America on the blue side people also
26:48
wanted to hide and in that case there
26:52
were two things going on one is the
26:53
draft hadn’t quite died down and it was
26:55
still the Vietnam era and that was just
26:57
terrifying because people didn’t really
27:01
believe in that war and the idea of
27:03
being drafted into this horribly violent
27:05
war that appeared to have no good
27:07
purpose just absolutely broke people’s
27:09
hearts and terrified people so they
27:11
wanted to hide and a lot of people did
27:13
and then there was marijuana and the
27:16
drug laws and a lot of people really
27:19
were hiding from those as well so you
27:21
basically had both red and blue America
27:23
feeling like the number one priority for
27:27
freedom for goodness is to be able to
27:29
hide from the government so encryption
27:32
and hiding and fake personas became this
27:36
celebrated thing so this in this milieu
27:41
there was this idea that online
27:44
networking which didn’t really exist yet
27:45
I mean we had networks but they were all
27:46
very specialized and isolated there
27:48
wasn’t a broad internet yet there would
27:50
be this idea that everything would be
27:52
free and open everything would be
27:54
anonymous and it’d just be like this
27:56
giant black weird place where you
27:59
everything you never knew anything but
28:01
you were also free and nobody could find
28:02
you
28:03
hmm okay so that was that was this
28:06
starting idea so there were a few other
28:09
things that fed into it another thing
28:11
was that there was a famous rock band
28:12
called the Grateful Dead that encouraged
28:14
people to tape their songs and didn’t
28:16
care about privacy and all this there
28:17
are all these different factors
28:19
now oh this was going on and then
28:21
simultaneously this other thing happened
28:23
which is we started to have the figure
28:26
of the glorified practically superhuman
28:31
tech entrepreneur and these were in the
28:34
80s they but these were figures like
28:36
Steve Jobs Bill Gates people we still
28:39
remember of course bill still with us
28:41
and they were just worshipped they were
28:45
the coolest people ever well around
28:47
around here in California people hated
28:49
Bill but they loved Steve and there was
28:55
this kind of interesting problem which
28:58
is we not we didn’t just like our tech
29:02
entrepreneurs we made them into sort of
29:04
superhuman figures the the phrase dent
29:08
the universe is associated with jobs
29:09
it’s this notion that there’s this this
29:12
kind of michi and super power to create
29:16
the flow of reality to direct the future
29:18
because you are the tech entrepreneur
29:19
and computation is reality and the way
29:22
we set these architectures will create
29:24
future societies and that’ll ultimately
29:25
change the shape of the universe once we
29:27
get even greater powers over physics and
29:30
there was just like this no end to the
29:32
fantastical thinking we were at the
29:34
birth point for every form of absolute
29:36
God like you know immortality and
29:39
shape-shifting and every crazy thing I
29:40
was a little bit of that I’m sorry to
29:43
say I was I kind of got a little off
29:44
I was pretty intense in the 80s myself
29:47
but anyway there was this feeling that
29:50
the entrepreneur could just just like
29:55
was had more cosmic power than the
29:58
average person okay so now here you have
30:00
a dilemma that had been kind of sneaking
30:03
up and nobody had really faced it on the
30:05
one hand everything’s supposed to be
30:07
free everything’s supposed to be
30:09
anonymous everything is supposed to be
30:11
like this completely open thing but on
30:14
the other hand
30:15
we love our entrepreneurs we worship our
30:17
entrepreneurs the entrepreneurs are
30:18
inventing reality so it should be clear
30:21
that there’s a bit of a potential
30:23
conflict here everything must be free
30:24
but we worship entrepreneurs how do we
30:27
do it how do we do it how do we do it
30:28
and so a set of compromises were created
30:32
over the years that ended up giving us
30:35
the worst of both sides of that I would
30:37
say so I’ll give you the the story is is
30:40
long and interesting but I’ll give you
30:42
just a few highlights one thing that
30:45
happened is when we finally got around
30:47
to actually creating the Internet
30:49
we decided it has to be super bare-bones
30:52
it would represent machines because
30:54
without having a number representing a
30:56
machine you can’t have an Internet but
30:58
it wouldn’t represent people it didn’t
30:59
intrinsically have accounts built-in for
31:01
humans it had no storage for humans
31:05
built-in it had no transactions it had
31:07
no authentication it had no persistence
31:10
of information guaranteed it had no
31:12
historical function we had it was like
31:14
super bare-bones just this thing
31:16
connects with that thing that’s all it
31:17
did and the reason why was that we were
31:21
supposed to leave room for future
31:23
entrepreneurs those who we worshipped
31:26
you know the Internet so if I was about
31:30
to say the Internet as you know was
31:31
invented by Al Gore some of you would
31:33
laugh and that’s because it was a laugh
31:36
line for a while because he was a
31:37
democratic he was a vice president and
31:40
before that a senator from Tennessee and
31:42
he was accused of over claiming that
31:44
he’d invented the internet on a TV show
31:45
which didn’t happen however I think he
31:48
should claim it I think he did invent it
31:50
he didn’t invent it technologically not
31:52
at all all of the underlying stuff which
31:55
is called a packet switch network and a
31:56
few other elements that existed in lots
31:59
of instances from before he had this
32:01
idea of throwing some government money
32:03
into it to bribe everybody to become
32:04
interoperable so they’d just be one damn
32:06
network and people could actually
32:07
connect that really was him and he
32:10
deserves credit for having done that
32:12
unless you think it was a terrible idea
32:14
but when that was happening
32:16
I remember having conversations about is
32:18
like we by creating this thing in such
32:21
an incredibly bare-bones way we are
32:24
creating gifts of hundreds of billions
32:26
of
32:26
for persons unknown who will be required
32:28
to fill in these missing things that
32:30
everybody knows have to be filled in and
32:34
then a little while later this other
32:36
thing happened which is Tim berners-lee
32:37
who’s great came up with a world wide
32:39
web protocol and here he did this thing
32:44
up to that point all of the ideas for
32:48
how to create shared you know shareable
32:51
media experiences online which are
32:53
called hypertext after Ted Nelson had
32:55
come up with the first Network design
32:57
back in 1960 the HTTP is from his for
33:00
hypertext they a core tenet of these is
33:04
that anytime one thing on the internet
33:06
pointed at something else that other
33:07
thing had to know it was being pointed
33:08
out so that there were two-way legs you
33:11
always knew who was pointing at you and
the reason for that is that way you
could preserve context provenance
history you could create chains of
payment where if people mashed up stuff
from somebody else in that person mashed
up from somebody else you could pay
payments that would populate back to pay
for everybody who contributed so if you
wanted to have an economy of information
you could the information wouldn’t be
dropped but Tim just had one wailings
you could point it somebody they have no
idea that we’re being pointed out and
the reason for that is that it’s just to
actually do the two-way links is
genuinely a pain in the butt it’s just
more work if you do one way links the
whole thing could spread a lot faster
anybody can do it it’s just a much
easier system and that embedded in it
not only this idea of virality or me
meanness where whatever can spread the
fastest is what wins
and so it was a quantity over quality
thing in my view that was another thing
that happened so another thing that
happened didn’t come from Silicon Valley
in the late 80s people in Wall Street
started to use automated trading in the
first flash crash from out of control
trading algorithms was 89 and they
figured out something very basic
although an Forester had described
exactly this problem so much earlier
which is that if you had a bigger
computer than everybody else and it was
more central getting more information
you could calculate ahead of everybody
in gained an information advantage and
in economics information advantages
everything so if you’ve had just a
little bit more information on everybody
else you could just turn that into money
and it wasn’t really new insight but it
had actually been implemented before
then shortly after that a company called
Walmart realized they could apply that
not just to financial instruments to
investments but to the real world and
they created a software model of their
supply chain and dominated it they could
35:10
go to anybody who was involved somewhere
35:12
in giving them products and figure out
35:14
what their bottom line was so they could
35:15
negotiate everybody down they knew who
35:17
everybody’s competitor was they went
35:19
into every negotiation with superior
35:21
information when they built this giant
35:23
retail empire on information superiority
35:28
Dada all happened before anybody in
35:30
Silicon Valley started doing it okay now
fast-forward to the birth of Google so
you have these super bright kids Sergey
and Larry some of the students I talked
to today on campus here remind me of
35:43
what they were like at the same age
35:44
super bright super optimistic idealistic
35:47
actually focused and they were backed
35:54
into a corner in my view on the one hand
35:57
the whole hacker community the whole
tech community would have just slammed
them if they did anything other than
everything being free but on the other
hand everybody wanted them to be the
next Steve Jobs the next Bill Gates that
was like practically a hunger like we
want we want our next star and the only
way to combine the two things was the
advertising model the advertising model
would say you’ll get everything for free
you can be you know as far as you’re
concerned your experience is you just
36:26
ask for what you want and we give it to
36:28
you now the problem with that is that
36:31
because it’s an advertising thing you’re
36:35
actually being observed your information
36:37
is being taken you’re being watched and
36:39
there’s a true customer this other
36:41
person off to the side who at first you
36:45
were always aware of because you could
36:46
see their little ads you know they’re
36:48
like if your local dentist or whatever
36:50
it was cute at first it was harmless at
36:51
first
36:54
and unfortunately if they come up with
37:00
this thing
37:01
after I don’t know worse law had ended
37:04
in computers were as fast as they were
37:05
ever gonna get and we’d established a
37:08
whole regulatory and ethical substrate
37:10
for computation everything maybe it
37:12
could have worked but instead they did
37:14
it in a period where there was still a
37:16
whole lot of Moore’s law to happen so
37:18
all the computers got faster and faster
37:19
cheaper and cheaper more more plentiful
37:21
more and more storeit or more connection
37:22
the algorithms got better and better
37:25
machine learning kind of started to work
37:27
a little better a lot of these
37:29
algorithms kind of kind of figured it
37:30
out we had enough computation to do
37:32
experiments and get all kinds of things
37:34
working that hadn’t worked before all
37:36
kinds of little machine vision things I
37:38
sold them on machine vision company
actually and the whole thing kind of
accelerated and what started out as an
advertising model turned into something
very different and so here we get into
our description of at least my
perception of the state that we’re in
37:54
right now so I mentioned earlier that
37:58
Norbert Wiener had described what he
38:04
viewed as a potentially horrible outcome
38:06
for the future of computation where
you’d have a computer in real time
observing a person with sensors and
providing stimulus to that person in
38:14
some form with displays or other
38:16
effectors and implementing behavior
38:19
modification feedback loops in order to
38:23
influence the person and if that was
38:24
done globally it would detach humanity
38:27
from reality and bring our species to an
38:29
end that was the fear back in the 50s
38:31
now unfortunately this innocent little
advertising model which was supposed to
address both the desire to have
everything be this Wild West open thing
and the desire to have entrepreneurs
despite everything being free landed us
right in that pocket that’s exactly
where we went
38:53
now I should say a bit about behaviorism
38:56
because that’s another historical thread
38:58
that led to where we are behaviorism is
39:02
a discipline of reducing the number of
39:07
variables in the training of an organism
39:10
so that you can corporal’s them
39:12
rigorously and reproduce effects so
39:15
let’s say if you’re whispering into your
39:18
horses ear while you’re training your
39:19
horse
39:20
that’s not behaviorism if you’re
39:22
whispering into your kids ear even if
39:24
you do offer some treats once in a while
39:26
ten cards behavior that’s not
39:27
behaviorism it has elements of it but
39:30
hardware behaviors and reduces the
39:32
variables and says look what we want to
39:34
do if we want to isolate we want to say
39:36
here’s this organism it’s in a box
39:38
sometimes they’re called Skinner boxes
39:41
remembering BF Skinner one of the famous
39:43
behaviorists and we want to say if the
39:46
creature person human whatever does a
39:48
certain thing you want you give the
person the treat does something you
don’t want give them a punishment
typically maybe candy and electric shock
39:58
the timing and the occurrence of these
40:02
things is guided by an algorithm you
40:04
find him the algorithm you need to
40:06
discover how to change behavior patterns
40:08
this science of studying behavior
40:11
behaviorism yielded surprises really
40:16
interesting surprises very early on the
40:19
first celebrity behaviorist was probably
40:22
Pavlov you’ve all heard of Pavlov I’m
40:24
sure and he demonstrated famously that
40:27
he could get a dog to salivate upon
40:30
hearing a bell whereas previously the
40:32
dogs salivated
40:33
upon being given food and hearing the
40:36
Bell so he was able to create a purely
40:39
symbolic seeming stimulus to replace the
40:43
original concrete one that’s quite
40:45
important because in many areas today
40:48
where behaviors modified addictions are
40:50
created there only abstract stimuli this
40:53
is true for instance for gambling’s that
modern gambling is based on this so are
like little games like candy crush were
there pictures of candy instead of real
41:01
candy now I have no doubt someday
41:04
there’ll be some Facebook or Google
41:07
hovercraft you know drone over your head
41:10
that drops real candy and electric
41:11
shocks on your head but for the moment
41:13
we’re in this symbolic realm that that
41:16
pavlov uncovered another amazing result
41:21
is that you might think naively that’s
41:23
simply providing punishment and reward
41:26
as reliably and as immediately as
41:29
possible would be the most effective way
41:31
to change behavior patterns but actually
41:33
that’s not true it turns out that adding
41:36
an element of randomness makes the
41:39
algorithms more effective so we don’t
41:44
fully just to state the obvious nobody
41:46
really understands the brain as yet but
41:49
it appears that the brain is is
41:52
constantly in a natural state of seeking
41:55
patterns of trying to understand the
41:57
world so if you provide a slightly
41:59
randomized feedback pattern it doesn’t
42:02
confuse or repel the brain instead of
42:05
draws the brain in the brain is a gate
42:06
there must be something more to
42:07
understand there must be something more
42:09
and gradually you’re drawn and more and
42:11
more and more and so this is why the
42:15
randomness of when you win at gambling
42:17
is actually part of the addiction
42:19
algorithm that’s part of what makes it
42:21
happen
42:21
now in the case of social media what
42:24
happens is the reward is when you get
42:27
retweeted or you go viral something like
42:30
that the term of art in Silicon Valley
42:33
companies is usually a dopamine hit
42:35
which is not an entirely accurate
42:37
description but it’s the one that that’s
42:40
most commonly is for when you have a
42:41
quick rise of a positive reward but just
42:45
as the gambler becomes addicted to the
42:48
whole cycle where they’re losing more
42:50
often than they win a Twitter addict
42:53
gets addicted to the whole cycle where
42:56
they’re most often being being punished
42:59
by other people who are tweeting and
43:00
they only get a win once in a while
43:02
right it’s the same it’s the same
43:05
algorithm and indeed
43:09
one of the side effects so in the trade
43:14
the terminology we use is engagement we
43:17
have algorithms that drive engagement
43:19
and we hire zillions of people with
43:22
recent PhDs from psych departments this
43:24
whole program there’s a program called
43:26
persuasive technology at Stanford where
43:28
you can go get a PhD in this and then
43:30
you get hired by some tech company to
43:32
drive engagement but it’s it’s really
43:34
just a sanitized word for addiction so
43:40
we drive addiction using a variety of
43:42
these algorithms and we can study them
43:45
more than the classical behavior server
43:46
did because we can study a hundred
43:48
million instances at once and and and we
43:52
can put out a hundred million variations
43:53
on all kinds of people and correlated
43:55
with data for all those people and then
43:58
cycle and cycle in a cycle the
44:00
algorithms can find new pockets of
44:03
efficacy they can tweak themselves until
44:06
they work better and we don’t even know
44:07
why they’re far ahead of any ability we
44:10
have to really keep up with them and try
44:12
to interpret exactly why some things
44:13
work better than other things
44:14
now even so it’s important to get this
44:18
right the effect is in a way not that
44:22
dramatic so Facebook for instance has
44:26
published research bragging that it can
44:28
make people sad and they don’t realize
44:29
that they were made sad by Facebook now
44:31
by the way you might wonder why would
44:34
Facebook publish that wouldn’t they want
44:37
to hide that fact it sounds pretty bad
44:39
but you have to remember that you’re not
44:42
the customer of Facebook the customer is
44:44
the person off to the side we’ve created
44:46
a world in which any time two people
44:48
connect online it’s financed by a third
44:51
person who believes they can manipulate
44:52
the first two so to the degree Facebook
44:55
can can convince that the third party
44:58
that mysterious other who’s hoping to
45:00
have influence that they can have some
45:03
mystical magical unbounded sneaky form
45:06
of influence then Facebook makes more
45:08
money that’s why they published it and
45:11
I’ve been at events where this stuff is
45:14
sold by the various tech companies and
45:15
they there’s no end to the brags and the
45:18
exaggerations when it comes to telling
45:20
the true customers what their powers are
45:22
very different from their public stance
45:23
but at any rate the the the darkness of
45:33
this all is that when you use this
45:37
technique to addictive people and we
45:40
haven’t even gotten to the final stage
45:41
of influencing their behavior patterns
45:42
we’re still just at the first stage of
45:44
getting them addicted you create
45:46
personality dysfunctions associated with
45:49
addiction because it is a form of
45:50
behavioral addiction so if any of you
45:53
who have ever dealt with somebody who’s
45:55
a gambling addict the technical
45:58
qualities of gambling addiction are
45:59
similar to the technical qualities of
46:02
social media addiction now I was just
46:06
saying before that we have to get this
46:07
right and understand the the degree of
46:10
awfulness here because it’s actually
46:13
kind of slight but just very consistent
46:15
and distributed a gambling addiction can
46:18
be really ruinous somebody can destroy
46:20
their lives and their family a social
46:22
media addiction can be ruinous as we’ve
46:24
seen by unfortunate events in just the
46:27
last few days but more often there’s a
46:30
statistical distribution where a
46:32
percentage of people are kind of
46:35
slightly effective and have their
46:37
personality slightly changed so what
46:40
will happen is some percentage and in
46:42
some of the studies I’ve seen published
46:44
maybe it’s like 5%
46:46
show like a three percent change in
46:48
personality or something like that so
46:49
and this is over hundreds of millions of
46:51
people or even over billions so it’s a
46:53
very slight very distributed statistical
46:56
effect on people with just a few who are
46:59
really dramatically affected but the
47:02
problem with that is that it compounds
47:07
like compound interest a slight effect
47:10
that’s persistent consistent repeated
47:14
starts to darken the whole society so
47:17
let’s talk a little bit about the
47:18
addictive personality that’s brought out
47:20
by these things the way I characterize
47:23
it is it becomes paranoid
47:28
insecure a little sadistic it becomes
47:36
cranky now why why those qualities so I
47:44
have a hypothesis about this and here
47:46
I’m hypothesizing a little ahead of
47:50
experimental results in science so I
47:53
want to make that clear this is a
47:54
conjecture not not something that I can
47:57
cite direct evidence for what I but but
48:01
all the the components of it are all
48:03
well studied so it’s just putting
48:05
together things that are known and I
48:07
think I think this should therefore be
48:09
worthy of public discussion you can very
48:13
roughly bundle emotional responses from
48:17
people into two kind of bins when we’ll
48:22
call positive and the other will call
48:23
negative the positive ones are things
48:25
like affection trust optimism and a
48:32
person belief in a person faith in a
48:34
person comfort with a person relaxing
48:37
around a person all that kind of stuff
48:39
the qualities you want to feel in
48:40
yourself when you’re dating somebody
48:42
let’s say the negative ones are things
48:46
like fear anger jealousy rage feeling
48:53
aggrieved feeling a need for revenge
48:55
just all this stuff now in the negative
48:58
bin a lot of these emotions are similar
49:01
to another bin that’s been described
49:03
over many years which is the startle
49:05
responses or the fight-or-flight
49:06
responses and the thing about these
49:09
negative ones is that they rise quickly
49:11
and they take a while to fall so you can
49:15
become scared really fast you can become
49:17
angry really fast and the related
49:21
positive emotions tend to rise more
49:23
slowly but can can drop quickly they
49:25
have the reverse time profile so it
49:29
takes a long time to build trust but you
49:31
can lose trust very quickly it takes a
49:33
long time to become relaxed compared to
49:37
how quickly you can become
49:38
startled scared and nervous and on edge
49:41
no this isn’t universally true there are
49:44
some fast rising positive emotions I
49:46
just talked about the dopamine hits
49:48
earlier so that’s an exception but
49:50
overall they’re more fast rising
49:52
negative ones
49:53
now these algorithms that are measuring
49:57
you all the time in order to adapt the
50:00
customized feeds that you see and the
50:02
designs of the ads that you see and just
50:04
everything about your experience they’re
50:06
watching you watching you watching you
50:07
in a zillion ways expanding all the time
50:10
now they’re following your voice tone
50:13
and trying to discern things about your
50:14
emotions based on pure correlation
50:17
without necessarily much theory behind
50:18
it they’re watching your emotions as you
50:21
move they’re watching your eyes your
50:23
smile and of course they’re watching
50:25
what you click on what you type all that
50:28
and the thing is if you have an
50:32
emotional response that’s faster the
50:35
algorithms are going to pick up on it
50:36
faster because they’re trying to get as
50:39
much speed as possible they’re rather
50:42
like high-frequency trading algorithms
50:44
in that sense we intrinsically in
50:47
Silicon Valley try to make things that
50:49
respond quickly and act quickly and so
50:51
if you have a system that’s responding
50:54
to the fast rising emotions you’ll tend
50:56
to catch more of the negative ones
50:57
you’ll tend to catch more of the
50:58
startled emotions now here’s the thing
51:01
if you look at the literature and ask
51:04
the broad question if we accept this
51:08
idea of beaming emotions into positive
51:10
and negative feedback emotions as far as
51:14
behavior change goes is positive or
51:16
negative more influential on human
51:19
behavior and the answer you’ll get is a
51:21
really complex patchwork there’s
51:24
behaviors have been around for a long
51:26
time so there’s a lot of studies you can
51:28
read hard to know exactly how high
51:30
quality all the research is especially
51:32
the older stuff but in general you can
51:34
find lots of examples of positive
51:37
feedback working better than negative or
51:39
vice versa and it’s all very situational
51:42
a lot of it’s very subtle on how things
51:44
are framed for people all kinds of stuff
51:45
but overall I what I perceive from the
51:49
literature is
51:49
approximate purity between positive and
51:52
negative but if you ask which emotions
51:56
will the algorithms pick up on when
51:58
they’re trying to get the fastest
51:59
possible feedback it’s unquestionably
52:01
true that the negative ones are faster
52:03
all right
52:05
so what you see is the algorithm
52:06
suddenly flagging oh my god I got a rise
52:09
out of that person let’s do some more of
52:10
that because we’re engaging that person
52:12
and that stuff tends to be the stuff
52:15
that makes them angry paranoid
52:17
revengeful insecure nervous jealous all
52:21
these things and so what you see is this
52:24
feedback cycle where a certain kind of
52:28
dysfunctional personality trait is
52:30
brought out more and more and people
52:33
with similar dysfunctional personalities
52:36
are introduced to each other by the
52:38
system’s
52:38
so when it’s a personality look like
52:41
well the the addiction personality
52:43
online all named three people who have
52:47
recently displayed it rather blatantly
52:49
one is the president who I’m just not
52:52
going to bother to name because I’m sick
52:53
of idiot the second is Kanye the third
52:58
is Elon Musk three people all displaying
53:02
somewhat overlapping in my view
53:05
personality distortions now I’ve no I’ve
53:09
had slight contact with two of the above
53:12
three I’ll let you guess which two they
53:14
are well know I’ll say one of them’s
53:17
trouble I’ve met Trump a few times over
53:18
a very long period of time I’ve never
53:21
known him well I’ve never had a real
53:23
conversation with him but I will say
53:24
that in the 80s and 90s he didn’t seem
53:29
like somebody who was desperate for you
53:30
to like him he didn’t seem like somebody
53:33
who was nervous about what you thought
53:34
about him he didn’t seem like somebody
53:36
who was itching for a fight he didn’t
53:38
seem like somebody who was looking for
53:40
trouble and thought it would help him he
53:43
really just didn’t seem like that at all
53:44
he seemed I think he was still a con man
53:46
I think he was but he was kind of like a
53:49
happy con man is that you know it was
53:51
like a different persona
53:53
and and I think what you know remember
53:58
how I said before that the gambling
54:00
addict is addicted to the whole cycle
54:02
where they lose a lot before they win
54:04
and I think in the same way the Twitter
54:06
addict is addicted to a cycle where they
54:08
bring a lot of wrath upon themselves and
54:10
have to deal with a lot of negative
54:12
feedback before they get positive
54:14
feedback or that you know there’s a mix
54:16
it’s very much like the losing and
54:18
winning and gambling and so I think
54:21
what’s happened is he’s gotten himself
54:22
into this state where he’s he’s like
54:24
this really nervous narcissist and this
54:27
is kind of weird like this personality
54:30
of the person who really like this
54:31
really like me I think he likes me
54:33
this kind of weird nervous narcissistic
54:36
insecure person has not been a typical
54:39
authoritarian personality in the past
54:41
and yet it’s working now and I suspect
54:45
the reason why is a lot of the followers
54:47
who respond to it see themselves in that
54:49
insecurity which is really strange I
54:52
mean if you think about this in the past
54:55
the celebrity figure or the leader
54:57
typically wanted to display a
54:59
personality that was kind of
55:02
invulnerable and an aloof and unmeaning
55:06
self-sufficient uncaring about whether
55:09
whether they’re liked or not and yet
55:12
that’s not what’s going on here it’s
55:13
really strange and and then there’s this
55:16
issue of lashing out its it be so so
55:19
it’s it’s as if because you know that
55:22
you have to get a certain if there’s a
55:23
certain amount of punishment that goes
55:25
with that reward you actually seek out
55:28
some of the punishment because you’re oh
55:29
that’s actually a part of your addiction
55:31
so if you’re a gambling addict you
55:33
actually make some stupid bets it’s it’s
55:35
it’s true it’s just what happens so you
55:38
have Elon Musk
55:39
I’m calling this guy who tried to rescue
55:41
kids in a cave in Thailand a pedophile
55:43
out of nowhere all right same thing
55:46
twitter twitter addiction dysfunctional
55:49
personality Kanye I’m not even what you
55:52
know but but basically you have people
55:54
who are kind of degrading themselves and
55:57
making themselves into fools but in a
56:01
funny way in the current environment
56:03
and there’s a whole world of addicted
56:06
fans who actually relate to it see
56:08
themselves in it and it works it works
56:10
for the first time in history and it’s
56:12
really strange it’s really it’s a really
56:15
weird moment okay so I started by
56:20
talking about the problem of losing
56:22
touch with reality
56:23
now as you heard I have a book called
56:28
ten arguments for deleting your social
56:29
media accounts right now and it goes
56:31
through a lot of reasons to delete your
56:34
social media of which the closest to my
56:37
heart is actually the final one which is
56:39
a spiritual one it’s about how I think
56:41
that Silicon Valley is kind of creating
56:44
a new religion to replace old religions
56:47
and even atheism with this new faith
56:49
about AI and the superiority of tech and
56:54
how we’re creating the future and all
56:55
this and and I feel that that religion
56:57
is an inferior woman people are being
56:59
drawn into it through practice so that
57:00
that tenth argument is the one I care
57:02
most about but what I want to focus on
57:04
here is the existential argument which
57:06
is the loss of reality so the problem we
57:11
have here is that we’ve created so many
57:15
addicts so many people who are on edge
57:17
that they perceive essentially politics
57:24
before they perceive nature they
57:26
perceive the world of human
57:31
recriminations before they perceive
57:33
actual physical reality no I presented a
57:36
theory it’s in various of my books
57:39
called the pacts which which I will
57:42
recount to you now that’s a way of
57:44
thinking about this it goes like this
57:48
there’s some species that are
57:51
intrinsically social like a lot of ants
57:54
there’s some species that tend to be
57:57
solitary like a lot of octopuses some of
58:01
my favorite animals there are some
58:04
species that can switch that can be
58:07
either solitary or social depending on
58:11
circumstances
58:13
and a famous one that we refer to in
58:16
mythology and in our storytelling is the
58:18
wolf you could have a wolf pack or you
58:21
can have a lone wolf same wolves
58:24
different social structures different
58:26
different epistemology I would say when
58:30
you’re a lone wolf you’re responsible
58:33
for your own survival you have to pay
58:36
attention to your environment where will
58:38
you find water where will you find prey
58:40
how do you avoid being attacked where do
58:43
you find shelter how do you survive bad
58:44
weather you are attached to reality like
58:47
a scientist or like an artist you are
58:50
naturalist when you’re in a wolf pack
58:54
different story now you have to worry
58:57
about your peers they’re competing with
58:59
you you have to worry about those above
59:01
you in the pack will they trash you can
59:04
will you get their station you have to
59:06
piss on those below you because you have
59:08
to maintain your status but you have to
59:11
unify with all your fellow pack members
59:13
to oppose those other packs over there
59:15
the other so all of a sudden social
59:19
perception and politics has replaced
59:22
naturalism politics versus naturalism
59:25
those are the epistemologies of the lone
59:28
wolf and the wolf pack people are also
59:33
variable in exactly this way we can
59:36
function as individuals or we can
59:38
function as members of a pack now what
59:43
happens is exactly what I am at least
59:45
hypothesizing happens with wolves it’s a
59:47
kind of interesting interaction
59:48
interacting with scientists who actually
59:50
study wolves because I haven’t actually
59:52
spent that much time with wolves just a
59:53
little bit so they’re people who know a
59:54
lot more about wolves and let’s just say
59:57
my little portrayal is overly simplified
59:59
but just I mean I’m it’s like a little
60:03
cartoon but I hope it functions to
60:04
communicate so when we are thinking as
60:11
individuals we have a chance to be
60:13
naturalist so we have a chance to be
60:14
scientists and artists we have a chance
60:16
to perceive reality uniquely from our
60:20
own unique perspective a diverse
60:22
perspective as compared to everyone else
60:23
is that
60:24
we can then share when we join into a
60:28
pack mentality we perceive politics so
60:32
what happens on social media is because
60:34
the algorithms are trying to get a rise
60:37
out of you to up your engagement and
60:39
make you ripe for receiving behavior
60:42
modification you’re constantly being
60:44
pricked with little social anxiety rage
60:50
irritations all these little things all
60:53
these little status worries is my life
60:55
as good as that person’s life am i
60:57
lonely relative to all these people what
60:59
do they think of me am i smart enough am
61:02
i getting enough attention for this why
61:03
didn’t people care about the last thing
61:05
I did online blah blah blah blah blah
61:06
and there’s just like it’s not that any
61:08
of these things by themselves are
61:10
necessarily that serious but
61:11
cumulatively what they’re doing is
61:13
they’re shifting your mindset and
61:16
suddenly you’re thinking like a packed
61:18
feature you’re so the pack switch is set
61:20
and you’re thinking politically and when
61:23
you think politically you lose
61:25
naturalism you know I think both modes
61:29
of being have a place I think being I
61:32
think if people exclusively all the time
61:34
stayed in the lone setting that would be
61:37
bad for society that would be bad for
61:39
relationships would be bad for families
61:42
and so on however there needs to be a
61:45
balance there needs to be a healthy way
61:47
of going back and forth between them and
61:49
not getting lost in one or the other and
61:52
so the hypothesis I’d put forward is
61:54
that we’re giving people so many little
61:57
anxiety-producing bits of feedback that
61:59
we’re getting them into this pack
62:00
mentality where they’ve become hyper
62:04
political without maybe even quite
62:06
realizing it and losing touch with
62:08
reality no when I say losing touch with
62:10
reality that demands some evidence
62:14
because you might say well are we less
62:16
in touch than in the past
62:18
so remember at the start after the music
62:23
I gave you what I consider to be sort of
62:27
a positive framing and a lot of good
62:29
news absolute poverty has been reduced
62:32
absolute levels of violence have been
62:33
reduced absolute levels of disease have
62:35
been reduced and so
62:36
there are many ways in which we’re
62:38
bettering ourselves but there’s this
62:40
other thing going on which is bad enough
62:44
that it might be the undoing of all of
62:47
that and that is this loss of reality
62:50
now here’s what I want to point out I I
62:53
travel around a fair amount and I
62:55
visited places that would appear on the
62:58
surface to have very little in common
63:00
I’ll mention some of them Brazil Sweden
63:03
Turkey Hungary the United States what do
63:08
they all have in common what they have
63:10
in common is the rise not just we
63:14
sometimes characterized it as right-wing
63:16
populist politics I don’t think that’s
63:20
quite right I think what we actually are
63:23
seeing is the rise of cranky paranoid
63:30
unreal politics I think that’s a better
63:34
characterization and it’s really
63:36
remarkable how it’s all happened at
63:38
about the same time and it’s happened in
63:40
some poor parts of the world too it’s
63:41
not even it’s like so it’s an you could
63:44
say well it’s something about aging
63:45
populations all the cranky old people I
63:47
have you know freshmen will tell me that
63:50
to get our minor but you know their
63:52
countries that are very young that have
63:54
that problem Turkey Brazil it’s like oh
63:56
it’s diverse countries it’s that we
63:59
can’t have democracies unless they’re
64:01
they’re ethnically monolithic or
64:03
something brazil’s diverse oh it’s it’s
64:08
inequality we can’t have the problem is
64:11
that societies are just losing their
64:14
social safety net well you know Sweden
64:17
Germany not really they might have
64:19
anxiety about actually you know it’s
64:22
it’s not so all these places are really
64:25
different they have different histories
64:26
and yeah they’ve all had similar
64:29
dysfunctions and so you have to say well
64:31
what’s in common between all of them and
64:33
you can say something vague well they
64:35
all have anxiety about the future and
64:36
this that’s true but the obviously they
64:38
have in common is that people have moved
64:40
to this mode of connecting through
64:42
manipulative systems that are designed
64:44
for the benefit of third parties who
64:45
hope to manipulate everybody sneakily
64:47
that seems like the clear thing they all
64:50
have in common
64:51
Brazil recently I mean all the same crap
64:55
that we saw was happening on whatsapp
64:58
which is the big connector down there
65:00
and Facebook I think to their credit try
65:04
to help a little bit but they couldn’t
65:05
really do it cuz the whole system is
65:07
designed to be manipulative you know
65:08
it’s if if if you have a car – that’s
65:12
designed to roll it’s very hard to say
65:14
well we won’t let it roll very much I
65:16
mean whatever it does it’ll be rolling
65:17
if you have a manipulation system and
65:19
that’s what it’s designed for you can
65:21
try to get it to roll more slowly or
65:23
something but all it can really do is
65:24
manipulate that is what these things are
65:26
optimized for that’s what they’re built
65:28
for that’s how they make money
65:29
every penny of the many billions of
65:32
dollars that some of these companies
65:33
have taken in that are totally dependent
65:35
on this and of the big companies the
65:37
only ones really totally dependent are
65:39
Google and Facebook or almost suddenly
65:41
dependent it all comes from people who
65:43
believe they’ll be able to sneakily
65:44
influence somebody else by paying money
65:46
via these places that is what they do
65:47
there’s just no other way to describe it
65:50
and so you have the typical thing that
65:57
happens is that the algorithms there
66:01
isn’t any information in them that comes
66:03
from like angels or extraterrestrials it
66:06
all has to come from people so people
66:07
input some information and often it’s
66:09
very positive at first you know it’ll a
66:11
lot of the starter information that goes
66:13
into social networks ranges from
66:16
extremely positive and constructive and
66:18
constructive to just neutral and nothing
66:21
much so there might be people who are
66:23
trying to better themselves maybe
66:24
they’re trying to help each other with
66:26
health information or something like
66:27
that
66:28
then all this information starts they’ll
66:31
say what we’re gonna forward some of
66:33
this information to this person in that
66:34
person we’ll try a 10 million times and
66:36
we’ll see if we get a rise from anybody
66:39
that ups their engagement now the people
66:41
who will be engaged quote-unquote
66:43
engaged are the ones who dislike that
66:45
information so all of a sudden you’re
66:47
getting juice from finding exactly the
66:49
horrible people who hate whatever the
66:50
positive people started off with and so
66:53
this is why you see this phenomenon over
66:55
and over again where whenever somebody
66:57
finds a great way to use a social
66:58
network they have this
66:59
initial success and then it’s echoed
67:01
later on but horrible people giving even
67:03
more mileage out of the same stuff so
67:04
you start with an Arab Spring and then
67:06
you get Isis getting even more mileage
67:08
out of the same tools you start with
67:10
black lives matter you get these
67:12
horrible racist these horrible people
67:16
who just are blackening America getting
67:18
even more mileage out of the same tools
67:20
it just keeps on happening and by the
67:24
way you start with me too and then you
67:26
get in cells and proud boys and whatever
67:28
the next stupid things gonna be because
67:30
the algorithms are finding these people
67:32
as a matter of course introducing them
67:34
to each other and then putting them in
67:35
feedback loops where they get more and
67:36
more incited without anybody planning it
67:39
there’s no evil person sitting in a
67:41
cubicle intending this I or at least I
67:44
would be very surprised to find somebody
67:46
like that I know a lot of the people in
67:49
the different places and I just don’t
67:51
believe it I believe that we backed
67:54
ourselves into this weird corner and
67:56
we’re just not able to admit it and so
67:58
we’re just kind of stuck in this stupid
68:00
thing where we keep on doing this to
68:01
ourselves so what you end up with is
68:06
electorates that are driven you have
68:09
like enough of a percentage of people
68:11
who are driven to be a little cranky and
68:14
paranoid and a little irritated and they
68:17
might have legitimate reasons I’m not
68:18
saying that they’re totally disconnected
68:20
from real life complaints but their way
68:22
of framing it is based on whatever the
68:24
algorithms found could be forwarded to
68:26
them that would irritate them the most
68:27
which is a totally different criteria
68:29
than reality so whatever it is and so if
68:34
it’s in the case of the synagogue
68:37
shooter it was one set of in
68:40
the case of the pipe bomber guy was
68:41
other thing in the case of the guy who
68:43
set up the but it’s all similar it’s all
68:45
part of the same brew of stuff that
68:46
algorithms forward now in some cases the
68:51
algorithms might have tweaked the
68:53
messages a bit because the algorithms
68:54
can do things like play with fonts and
68:56
colors and timing and all kinds of
68:57
parameters to try to if those have a
68:59
slight effect of how much of rise they
69:01
can get but typically they come from
69:03
people who are also
69:05
just trying to get as much impact as
69:08
possible and I think what I think what’s
69:11
happened is we’ve created a whole world
69:13
of people who think that it’s honorable
69:18
to be a terribly socially insecure
69:21
nitwit who feels that the world is
69:23
against them and it’s desperate to get
69:24
attention in any way and if they can get
69:26
that attention that’s the ultimate good
69:28
and the president acts that way a lot of
69:31
people act that way
69:33
that’s what musk was doing and I could
69:36
many other figures and I think what
69:38
happens is these people become both the
69:40
source of new data that furthers the
69:41
cycle and of course it drives them and
69:44
so that there’s sort of multiple levels
69:48
of evil that result from this the
69:50
obvious one is these horrible people who
69:54
make our world unsafe and make it make
69:57
our world violent and break our hearts
69:59
and just keep on doing it over and over
70:01
again and this just off the sense that
70:03
just random people are self-radicalized
70:06
and turning themselves into the heart of
70:08
the most awful version of a human
70:09
imaginable but there aren’t that many of
70:12
them in absolute numbers and I said in
70:14
earlier in terms of absolute amounts of
70:17
violence there’s actually an overall
70:18
decrease in the world despite all this
70:20
horrible stuff with some notable
70:22
exceptions like in with Isis in the
70:24
Middle East and so forth
70:25
but overall you know actually that’s
70:27
that’s true however the second evil is
70:31
the one that I think actually threatens
70:33
our overall survival and that is the one
70:35
of gradually making it impossible to
70:38
have a conversation about reality it’s
70:41
really become impossible to have a
70:44
conversation about climate it’s become
70:46
impossible to have a conversation about
70:48
health it’s become impossible to have a
70:51
conversation about poverty it’s become
70:53
impossible to have a conversation about
70:55
refugees it’s become impossible to have
70:58
a conversation about anything real it’s
71:03
only become possible to have
71:05
conversations about what the algorithms
71:07
have found upsets people and on the
71:09
terms of upsetting because that’s the
71:11
only thing that’s allowed to matter
71:15
and that is terribly dark that is
71:19
terribly dark and terribly threatening
71:21
and what I the scenario I worry about is
71:25
I mean it’s conceivable that some sort
71:30
of repeat of what happened it’s hard for
71:34
me to even say this but some sort of
71:35
repeat of what happened in the late 30s
71:37
in Germany could come about here I can
71:39
imagine that scenario I can imagine it
71:42
vividly because my own grandfather
71:43
waited too late in Vienna and my mother
71:46
was taken as a child and survived the
71:49
concentration camp so I feel it’s very
71:51
keenly having a daughter myself and yet
71:56
I don’t think that’s the most likely bad
71:58
scenario here I think the more likely
72:00
bad scenario is that we just put up with
72:03
more and more shootings more and more
72:07
absolutely useless horrible people
72:10
becoming successful and one in one
72:12
theatre or another whether politicians
72:13
or company heads or entertainers or
72:17
whatever and gradually we don’t address
72:21
the climate gradually we don’t address
72:24
where we’re gonna get our fresh water
72:26
from gradually we don’t address where
72:28
we’re gonna get a new antibiotics from
72:30
gradually we don’t wonder how we’re
72:33
gonna stop the spread of viruses vaccine
72:37
paranoia is another one of these stupid
72:39
things that spread through these
72:41
channels gradually we see more and more
72:43
young men everywhere turning themselves
72:45
into the most jerky version of a young
72:47
man sort of various weenie suppress
72:51
supremacy movements under different
72:53
names from you know gamergate to in
72:57
cells – all right – proud boys –
73:00
whatever this is going to be like this
73:02
endlessly and then gradually one day
73:04
it’s too late and we haven’t faced
73:06
reality and that and we’re we no longer
73:10
have agriculture we no longer have our
73:12
coastal cities we no longer have a world
73:15
that we can survive in and I that is you
73:21
know it’s a kind of a what I worry about
73:23
is a terribly stupid cranky undoing
73:27
fight into us not a big dramatic one
73:30
it’s neither a whimper nor a bang but
73:33
just sort of a cranky rant that could be
73:38
our end and is that a laugh line I don’t
73:44
know you guys are pretty dark anyway so
73:51
what to do about it
73:53
so here there my characterization of the
73:57
problem overlaps strongly with a lot of
74:00
other people’s characterizations of the
74:02
problem mine is perhaps not identical to
74:06
the problem as described by many others
74:08
but there’s an F overlap that I think we
74:11
have a shared we meaning many people who
74:13
hope to change us have a shared sense of
74:15
what’s gone wrong no the first thing I
74:17
want to say in terms of optimism is Wow
74:19
is that better than things used to be if
74:21
I had been giving this talk even a few
74:24
years ago not long at all ago I would
74:28
have been giving the talk as a really
74:30
radical French figure who was saying
74:31
things that almost nobody accepted who
74:33
had lost friends over these ideas and
74:36
who was really kind of surviving on the
74:40
basis of my technical abilities in my
74:42
past rather than what I was saying
74:44
presently because it was so unpopular
74:45
the last especially since I would say
74:48
like brexit Trump but also just in
74:51
general like studies showing the
74:52
horrible increase in suicides and teen
74:55
girls that that scale with their social
74:58
media use all these horrible things that
74:59
have come out oh no something that’s
75:02
really different in Silicon Valley there
75:05
are genuinely substantial movements
75:07
among the people the companies to try to
75:09
change their act regulators at least in
75:12
Europe are starting to get teeth and
75:13
really look at it seriously the tech
75:17
companies are trying to find a way to
75:19
get out of the manipulation game they
75:22
haven’t necessarily succeeded and not
75:24
all of them are trying but some of them
75:26
are
75:27
and it’s a different world it’s a world
75:29
with a lot of people who are engaged so
75:31
now having presented and the problem as
75:34
I see it it’s possible to talk about the
75:38
solution now a lot of folks feel the
75:41
solution should be privacy rights the
75:44
European regulators are really into that
75:46
we had a major conference on that in
75:48
Brussels last week where Tim Cook who
75:52
runs Apple gave a fire-breathing talk
75:53
that kind of sounded like a talk I might
75:55
have given at some point in the past I
75:57
gave a talk there too and I was like wow
76:01
I’ve got the radical anymore it’s very
76:02
straight in a way in a way I kind of
76:04
mourn the loss of radicalness because
76:08
some part of me likes being the person
76:10
like at this outer edge and I’m not and
76:12
it’s kind of like oh god I’m supposed to
76:14
be the radical but anyway I am I think
76:20
it’s great that the Europeans are
76:21
pushing for privacy the theory behind
76:24
that is that the more the harder it is
76:29
for the manipulation machine to get at
76:31
your data the less it can manipulate and
76:33
the more maybe there’s a chance for
76:36
sanity there’s a peculiar race going on
76:39
because the societies and year of that
76:42
support regulation and have and have
76:45
regulators with teeth which we really
76:47
don’t have much of in the u.s. right now
76:48
are themselves under siege by these the
76:51
the cranky political parties who are
76:54
sometimes called right-wing populist but
76:56
I think should be just called you know
76:59
the crank parties and the the cranky
77:02
parties might bring these societies down
77:04
so there’s a race can the regulator’s
77:07
influence the technology in time to
77:09
preserve themselves or will the
77:11
technology destroy their politics before
77:13
they have a chance it’s a really so
77:16
that’s a race going on right now it’s
77:17
quite dramatic and I wouldn’t know how
77:19
to handicap it now the privacy approach
77:23
is hard because these systems are
77:27
complicated like if I say okay here’s
77:30
click on this button to consent to using
77:32
your data for this like I even obviously
77:34
can’t read them
77:36
thing and even if there’s some kind of
77:38
better regulation supporting it it’s
77:40
just nobody understands that even the
77:42
companies themselves don’t understand
77:43
their own data they don’t understand
77:44
their own security they don’t I mean
77:46
like this whole thing is beyond all of
77:48
us nobody’s nobody’s really doing it
77:50
that well everybody’s having data
77:52
breaches and discovering suddenly that
77:54
they were using data they didn’t think
77:56
they were using that’s happened
77:57
repeatedly at Google and Facebook in
77:59
particular so I’ve advocated a different
78:02
approach which is instead of using
78:08
regulators to talk about privacy get
78:11
lawyers and accountants to talk about
78:13
lost value from your data being stolen
78:15
now I have several reasons for that one
78:19
is I don’t think we’ll ever lose our
78:22
accountants and our lawyers I think
78:24
they’re more persistent than our
78:26
regulators that’s one reason and I’m not
78:30
going to do lawyer jokes because it’s
78:34
about the health society’s become some
78:35
mean-spirited I don’t like to make jokes
78:37
about classes of people even lawyers
78:38
anymore but in your so my best friends
78:43
are really you know them but anyway let
78:52
me give you an example that I like to
78:55
use to explain the economic approach
78:57
here there’s a tool online that I happen
79:01
to use frequently that I really like
79:03
which is automatic translation between
79:05
languages if you want to look at a
79:06
website in another language or send
79:08
somebody now you can go online and there
79:10
at least two companies that do this
79:12
pretty well now Microsoft and Google can
79:14
enter your text in one language a usable
79:16
translation comes out on the other side
79:18
convenient free great modernity however
79:24
here’s an interesting thing it turns out
79:28
that languages are alive every single
79:30
day there’s a whole world of public
79:31
events all of a sudden today I have to
79:35
be able to talk about the Tree of Life
79:36
shooter and you have to know what I mean
79:38
all of a sudden today I have to be able
79:40
to talk about the magibon Marie you need
79:42
to know what I mean so every single day
79:44
there all of these new reference points
79:46
that come out lately often horrible ones
79:48
sometimes my
79:49
once maybe a new music video and a new
79:53
meme that people like whatever so every
79:56
single day those of us who help maintain
79:59
such systems have to scrape meaning
80:02
steal tens of millions of example phrase
80:04
translations from people who don’t know
80:06
it’s being done to them so there are
80:08
tens of millions of people who are kind
80:10
of tricked into somehow translating this
80:12
phrase or that phrase in Google and
80:14
Microsoft have to grab these things and
80:15
incorporate them to update their systems
80:17
to make them work but at the same time
80:20
the people who are good at translating
80:22
are losing their jobs
80:24
the career prospects for a typical
80:27
language translator have been decimated
80:30
meaning their tenth of what they were
80:31
following exactly the pattern of other
80:34
information based work that’s been
80:36
destroyed by the everything must be free
80:39
movement recording musicians
80:41
investigative journalists crucially
80:43
photographers all of these people are
80:46
looking at about a tenth of the career
80:48
prospects that they used to have that’s
80:50
not to say that everything’s bleak all
80:51
there there are examples in each case of
80:54
a few people who find their way and this
80:57
gets to a very interesting technical
80:58
discussion which is I won’t but you get
81:01
a zipper curve where there are few
81:03
successful people and then it falls to
81:04
nothing whereas before you before you
81:06
had a bell curve but I can if anybody
81:08
wants to know more about that I can but
81:09
anyway you have a tiny number of
81:11
successful people but almost everybody
81:13
has lost their careers now wouldn’t it
81:15
make more sense if instead of making
81:20
money by providing free translations in
81:22
order to get other people who are called
81:24
advertisers to manipulate the people who
81:26
need the translations in some sneaky way
81:28
that they don’t understand and make the
81:31
whole world more cranky and less reality
81:32
oriented instead of that what if we went
81:37
to the people providing this phrase
81:39
translations and we just told them you
81:41
know if you could just give us the
81:42
phrase translations we really need then
81:45
our system would work better and we’d
81:47
pay you because then we’d have a better
81:48
system and then if we went to the people
81:50
who need translations and say free isn’t
81:53
really quite working because that way we
81:55
that means we have to get these other
81:56
people to manipulate you to have a
81:58
customer but we’ll make it really cheap
82:00
what about a die
82:01
a translation or something like that we
82:03
worked out some kind of a system where
82:05
the people who provide the translations
82:07
meet each other because it’s a network
82:08
we can introduce them they form a union
82:11
they collectively bargain with us for a
82:13
reasonable rate so that they can all
82:15
live put their kids through school and
82:17
then we get better working translators
82:20
and yeah you pay a dime you can afford a
82:22
dime and something everybody’s happier
82:24
no there are a few things about this
82:26
that are really good in my point of view
82:28
one is we no longer have these people
82:30
from the side paying to manipulate
82:32
people everything’s become clear – we
82:35
have a whole class of people making a
82:36
living instead of needing to go on the
82:38
dole instead of saying oh we need this
82:40
basic income because everybody is
82:41
worthless 3 we’re being honest instead
82:44
of lying which is a really big deal
82:46
right now we have to lie because we’re
82:49
not telling the people that were taking
82:50
their data we’re telling them oh you’re
82:52
buggy whips you’re worthless
82:53
but in secret we need you that’s a lie
82:56
and for there’s kind of a spiritual
82:59
thing here where we’re telling people
83:01
honestly when they’re still needed like
83:03
to tell people oh actually you’re
83:05
obsolete the robots taken over your job
83:08
when it’s not true when we still need
83:10
their data there’s something very cruel
83:12
about that it cuts to some sort of issue
83:14
of dignity and human Worth and it really
83:16
bothers me so for all these reasons this
83:18
seems like a better system to me and
83:21
sure we’d have to make accommodations
83:22
for those who can’t afford whatever the
83:24
rate would be for the language
83:25
translation but we can do that we’ve
83:27
almost figured out ways to do that if
83:28
we’re a decent society and we’d be a
83:30
more decent society because we wouldn’t
83:32
have an economy that’s strictly run on
83:35
making people into assholes so so that’s
83:41
why I advocate the economic approach so
83:44
I know it’s bad form but it can I refer
83:47
you to a paper to read go look up
83:50
something called blueprint for a better
83:52
digital society I’m sorry about the
83:54
title I didn’t make it up it’s an
83:56
editor’s fault Adi Ignatius it’s your
83:59
fault Adi and it’s a Harvard Business
84:01
Review recently you can find it online
84:02
very easily blueprint for better digital
84:05
society and it’s the latest version
84:07
about how to make this thing work and a
84:09
little bit about how to transition to it
84:13
so so that’s the solution I’ve been
84:16
exploring and promoting I think there’s
84:19
room for a lot of solutions another idea
84:22
is people like the Center for Humane
84:25
technology which is Tristan Harris in
84:27
another group called Common Sense Media
84:28
are trying to educate individuals about
84:31
how to be more aware of how they are
84:33
manipulated and how to make slight
84:35
adjustments to be manipulated a little
84:37
less worth trying remember it’s a sneaky
84:42
machine the whole industry is based on
84:43
fooling you so staying ahead of it is
84:45
gonna be work you can’t just do it once
84:47
and think you’re done it’ll be a
84:48
lifetime effort that’s why I think you
84:49
should just quit the things yeah when I
84:53
say can you please delete all your
84:55
social media accounts surely one of the
84:58
first thoughts and all your minds is
85:00
well that’s ridiculous I mean you’re not
85:02
going to get billions of people to
85:04
suddenly drop these things there’s
85:06
there’s two reasons why you’re correct
85:09
if you have that that that thought one
85:14
is that you’re addicted this is an
85:16
actual addiction you can’t just go to
85:18
somebody with a gambling addiction and
85:19
say oh just so you know any more than
85:21
you can do that if they have a heroin
85:23
addiction that’s not how addiction works
85:25
you can’t just say no it’s a prop it’s
85:27
hard
85:27
addiction is hard all of us have
85:29
addictions none of us are perfect but
85:31
this particular ones destroying our
85:33
future it’s really bad it’s not just
85:34
personal we hurt each other with this
85:36
one in an exceptional way so another
85:41
reason is network effect and that means
85:43
everybody already has like all their
85:45
pictures and all their past and all
85:47
their stuff on these properties that
85:49
belong to companies like Facebook and
85:50
for everybody to get off it all at once
85:53
they can continue to have connections
85:54
with each other is a coordination
85:56
problem that’s essentially impossible at
85:57
scale so that’s that’s a network effect
86:00
problem so why am I asking people to do
86:03
something that can only happen a little
86:05
and the reason why is even if it only
86:08
happens a little it’s incredibly
86:09
important so let me let me draw a
86:12
metaphor to some things that have
86:14
happened in the past we have in the past
86:17
had mass addictions that were tied to
86:24
corrupt
86:25
mercial motives at a large scale one
86:28
example is the cigarette industry
86:32
another example is big alcohol alcoholic
86:36
beverages I could mention others lead
86:39
paint is when I bring up in the book now
86:41
in these cases well actually the lead
86:44
paint was an addiction thing so I’ll
86:45
leave I’ll leave out lead paint so let’s
86:47
just talk about cigarettes and in the
86:50
case of cigarettes when I was growing up
86:52
it was almost impossible to challenge
86:55
cigarettes
86:56
I you know like cigarettes were manly
86:59
they were cool if you were on the red
87:02
side of America they were the cowboy
87:03
thing if you were on the blue side they
87:06
were the cool beatnik thing everybody
87:07
had a cigarette and you just couldn’t be
87:10
cool without your cigarette but enough
87:12
people finally realize that they could
87:14
get out from under it that at least it
87:16
allowed a conversation the addict will
87:19
defend it if you talk to somebody who’s
87:21
really addicted to cigarettes it’s very
87:22
hard for them to really get a clear view
87:25
of what the cigarette means to society
87:27
what it means to have cigarette in
87:28
public spaces there was a time in this
87:32
room would have been filled with
87:33
cigarette smoke and we would have been
87:35
gradually killing the students who were
87:36
attending I think I’m coughing in
87:42
sympathy with remembering what that was
87:43
like because it was really horrible
87:48
alcohol Mothers Against Drunk Driving
87:50
was or drunk drivers I forgot which it
87:53
is has been one of the most effective
87:55
political organizations they changed
87:57
laws they changed awareness they changed
87:59
outcomes and saved an enormous number of
88:01
lives despite the fact that once again
88:04
alcohol is cool it’s supposed to be cool
88:06
to drink at a frat party it supposed to
88:07
be cool to drink at your fancy
88:09
restaurant everybody loves drinking and
88:11
there’s this whole world event of
88:13
advertising liquor we found a reasonable
88:17
compromise in both cases we don’t throw
88:20
people who drink or smoke cigarettes in
88:23
jail like we’ve done for marijuana for
88:25
years instead we came up with a
88:28
reasonable policy don’t do it in public
88:30
don’t do it behind the wheel it worked
88:32
that was only possible because we had
88:36
enough people who were outside of the
88:38
addiction system
88:39
have a conversation in this case we
88:42
don’t have that in this case all the
88:44
journalists who should be helping us are
88:46
addicted to Twitter and making fools of
88:47
themselves if you’re a journalist in
88:50
this room you know I’m telling the truth
88:54
the same for politicians same for public
88:57
figures celebrities who might be helpful
88:59
we need to create just a space to have a
89:04
conversation outside of the addiction
89:06
system now you might be thinking oh my
89:08
god I’ll destroy my life if I’m not on
89:10
these things I don’t think it’s true I
89:13
think if you actually drop these things
89:14
you suddenly discover you can have any
89:15
life you want I’m not claiming that I’m
89:18
the most successful writer or public
89:21
speaker but I’m pretty successful I have
89:22
best-selling books I get around I you
89:25
know you hired me to come talk to you
89:29
and I’ve never had an account on any of
89:31
these things and you could say oh but
89:33
you’re an exception in this way well I
89:34
mean how much of an exception can I be I
89:37
play any points against me I’m like this
89:39
weirdo and and I still know seriously
89:42
you know I mean I still can do it if I
89:44
can do it probably other people can do
89:45
it too
89:46
I just don’t I think that there’s this
89:48
illusion that your whole life like
89:50
they’ll be you’ll just be erased if
89:52
you’re not on these things but that
89:53
illusion is exactly part of the problem
89:55
that’s that’s exactly part of this weird
89:59
existential insecure need for attention
90:05
at any cost bizarre personality
90:08
dysfunction that’s destroying us just
90:10
give it a rest
90:11
now here’s what I would say there was a
90:13
time it’s when if you were young
90:17
especially one of the priorities that
90:20
you felt in your life was to know
90:21
yourself and the only way to know
90:23
yourself is to test yourself and the way
90:25
you test yourself is maybe you’d go
90:26
trekking in the Himalayas or something I
90:30
used to hitchhike into central Mexico
90:32
when I was really young just a really
90:34
young teenager and that’s how I tested
90:36
myself these days I think the the
90:39
similar idea would be quitting your
90:41
social media and really deleting it like
90:43
you can’t you can’t like quit Facebook
90:45
and keep Instagram that’s you
90:46
have to actually delete the whole
90:48
thing
90:49
and and then it doesn’t mean you’re
90:52
doing it for your whole life
90:53
delete everything and then stay off
90:56
stuff for six months okay if you’re
90:59
young you can afford it it will not kill
91:01
you and then after six months you will
91:03
have learned and then you make a
91:05
decision in my opinion you should not
91:08
harm your life for the sake of the ideas
91:11
I’ve talked about today if it’s really
91:13
true that your career will be better or
91:15
whatever through using these things then
91:18
you need to follow your truth and do
91:21
what makes you succeed and if it’s
91:22
really true that being a serf just
91:24
stupid Silicon Valley giant is the thing
91:27
that helps your career okay but you have
91:32
to be the one making that decision and
91:33
if you haven’t tested yourself you don’t
91:36
have standing to even know so I’m not
91:40
telling you what’s right for you but I
91:41
demand that you discover what’s right
91:44
for you that I think is a fair demand
91:47
given the stakes and with that cheerful
91:51
closing I will call it
91:53
[Applause]
92:02
[Music]
92:06
so we have is that is a mic on so do we
92:10
have the question set people well we
92:14
were gonna have cards I don’t know if
92:15
any cards have made their way here’s a
92:17
card cards okay
92:19
I’m actually an unclear on how this
92:22
whole thing works okay well this is it
92:28
alright so normally I would get a bunch
92:32
of cards but but but I haven’t that
92:34
hasn’t happened yet okay lately I’ve
92:36
noticed that I was getting progressively
92:38
more cranky that’s now a technical term
92:41
I think you’ve introduced along with a
92:43
virtual-reality cranky from a lack of
92:46
sleep because of the excessive blue
92:48
light given off by screens ah have you
92:51
factored this effect into your theory oh
92:55
yeah
92:56
well there’s the time and stuff like
92:57
that there’s more as soon as soon as I
93:02
put blue filters on my screens I got a
93:03
lot less cranky okay there the the
93:08
problem of blue light keeping you up and
93:11
those are all real problems and in fact
93:13
you might want to just turn colour off
93:15
on your computer definitely turn colour
93:17
off on your phone and all seriousness
93:18
you don’t need it
93:19
for most things I have I have color I
93:23
use a phone but I definitely cover off
93:24
and like make those changes if you know
93:28
if you notice something like that yeah
93:32
you can right you can turn off the blue
93:38
light on your computer you can go into a
93:40
setting and you know the best way to do
93:43
it go to the visual accessibility
93:45
settings because they have these high
93:46
contrast settings for people who have
93:49
trouble focusing and they get rid of
93:50
color as we come stark contrast as an
93:54
example oh for God’s sakes I have to
94:00
enter this – I was going to show you
94:01
what it looks like but I’m not going to
94:02
bother with a code anyway you just you
94:04
can do it every major platform has this
94:06
ability it’s really that and you should
94:08
do it go to Common Sense Media org or to
94:15
Center for humane technologies website
94:17
and both of them have advice on how to
94:21
do things like this and another thing is
94:23
both I’m pretty sure both Windows and
94:26
Mac if it’s a computer have ways to make
94:28
the blue light go away as the evening
94:29
approaches there’s like this kind of
94:31
stuff this is real stuff and you should
94:33
pay attention to it and the technology
94:35
should serve you and not drive you crazy
94:36
but I do have to say this is not an
94:38
existential threat this is this is at
94:41
the level of too much sugar and
94:42
breakfast cereals or something like that
94:43
it is actually a real issue it’s it’s it
94:46
does have an effect on the health of the
94:48
population but it’s not going to destroy
94:49
us this other stuff I’m talking about is
94:51
at another level okay
94:53
so rather than the cards do we have
94:57
cards we do okay great let’s give some
95:02
cards is that your card oh okay great
95:07
okay here’s my card isn’t there a design
95:09
problem for publishing online if you
95:11
know who’s pointing at you how is that
95:14
related to the problem Allen turning
95:16
faced touring it says turning he hatched
95:20
the concept of a machine like
95:22
personality isn’t that too software what
95:25
listening and compassion is to human
95:27
communication yeah it’s a kind of
95:30
interesting question to me when I read
95:34
Turing’s final notes that the Turing
95:37
test comes up twice it comes up in a
95:39
little monograph he wrote and it comes
95:40
up in a sort of a little note there’s
95:43
two statements of it and in both of them
95:45
to me reading them there’s just this
95:49
profound sadness I feel like this is
95:51
this person who’s just screaming out so
95:55
some of you might I don’t know there’s a
95:56
whole history to this thing that what
95:58
trinket is he created a metaphor oh boy
96:02
let me try to do this as fast as I can
96:04
Turing did as much as anybody to defeat
96:07
the Nazis in World War two by braking
96:10
using one of the first computers that
96:11
ever existed to break a Nazi secret code
96:13
called enigma and he he was considered a
96:18
great war hero however he lived an
96:22
identity that was illegal at that time
96:24
which is that he was gay
96:25
and he was forced by the British
96:27
government after the war to accept a
96:30
bizarre crack treatment for being gay
96:32
which was to overdose on female sexual
96:35
hormones with this bizarre idea that
96:37
female hormones would balance his over
96:39
sexiness which was supposed to be the
96:41
gay it’s like so stupid it’s hard to
96:43
even repeat it and he started developing
96:46
female physiological characteristics as
96:48
a result of that treatment and it he
96:53
committed suicide by a sort of a weird
96:56
political thing where he laced an apple
96:58
with cyanide and ate it next to the
96:59
first computer sort of anti Eve or
97:03
something and he was a very brilliant
97:05
and poetic man and in the final couple
97:08
of weeks of his life he came up with
97:10
this idea of repurposing an old
97:14
Victorian parlor game that used to be
97:18
this thing we’d have a man and a woman
97:21
behind a curtain or a screen of some
97:26
kind and all they could do is pass
97:30
little messages to a judge and the judge
97:32
would have to tell who’s the man and
97:33
who’s the woman and each of them might
97:35
be trying to fool the judge which is
97:36
kind of a weird if you think about it
97:38
the Victorians were pretty kinky and
97:40
bizarre and and so what you’re doing is
97:45
as with behaviorism and as for the
97:47
internet you’re slicing away all of
97:48
these factors and just turning it into
97:50
like this limited stream of information
97:51
so it’s kind of like tweeting or
97:53
something and that so what Turing said
97:56
is what if you got rid of the woman and
97:58
you had a man in a computer and the
98:00
judge couldn’t tell them apart wouldn’t
98:03
then finally you have to admit that the
98:05
computer should be given rights and give
98:07
in stature and be treated and when you
98:10
read it I don’t the way I read it is
98:13
it’s this person saying oh my god I
98:14
figured out how to save the world from
98:16
these people who wanted to destroy
98:18
everybody based on being of the wrong
98:19
identity these people who wanted to kill
98:22
not only gays but of course Jews and
98:24
Gypsies and and and black people and
98:27
these horrible people and I came up with
98:30
this way of defeating them and now
98:31
you’re destroying me for who I am
98:33
and I feel like there’s this kind of
98:37
astonishing sadness in it and the way
98:40
it’s the way turns and so that was the
98:43
birth of the idea of artificial
98:44
intelligence and I feel like the way
98:46
it’s remembered is completely unlike
98:48
what it’s like to read the original you
98:50
know I feel like if you look at the have
98:51
you ever read the original Turing
98:53
because if you read the original Turing
98:54
I mean it’s like it’s intense you know
98:58
here’s this person who’s being tortured
98:59
to death it’s like it’s not some kind of
99:02
nerdy thing at all it’s it’s a it’s a
99:05
difficult it’s difficult to read the
99:07
documents and I think it was like this
99:12
crazy I think he knew he was about to
99:15
die and I think he was reaching out for
99:17
some sort of a fantasy of what kind of a
99:20
thing what would it take for people to
99:23
not be cruel what would it take and I
99:26
think in this very dark moment he
99:28
thought maybe giving up humanity
99:30
entirely and we’ll just maybe if we’re
99:32
just machines maybe we won’t do this to
99:35
ourselves and the thing about that of
99:37
course is we’ve turned ourselves sort of
99:40
into machines because we’ve all kind of
99:42
acting like machines to be able to use
99:44
this stuff you’re all sitting there all
99:45
day entering your like little codes to
99:47
get online that you’re sort of turning
99:49
into machines in practice and yet we’ve
99:51
just become more and more coral like
99:53
that that’s the the ultimate irony is
99:55
that it didn’t help so that’s my take on
99:58
it and this idea that AI is some could
100:02
be some form of compassion I think it’s
100:05
kind of I think it’s really
100:06
just a way of stealing data from people
100:07
who should be paid to translate AI is
100:11
theft
100:11
to paraphrase anyway okay we we a I is
100:23
just a way look all all we can do with
100:27
computers ever look to be a good
100:30
technologist you have to believe that
100:33
people are sort of mystically better
100:35
than machines otherwise you end up with
100:38
gobbledygook and nonsense you can’t
100:40
design for machines so AI has to be
100:43
understood as a channel for taking data
100:45
from one person to help another
100:47
I take I take the data from the
100:50
translators and I apply it through a
100:52
machine learning scheme or some kind of
100:54
scheme and I can get translations that
100:56
help people in a better way than I could
100:59
without that scheme in between which is
101:01
wonderful
101:02
so it’s technology to help people
101:04
connect in a way that’s more helpful if
101:05
you understand AI that way you elevate
101:08
people and you don’t confuse yourself
101:11
okay yeah we we we don’t have a lot of
101:13
time and we have a lot of great
101:15
questions so some questions are not
101:16
going to be able to be answered now
101:19
although I want to mention that there
101:21
will be a book signing and book
101:23
purchasing outside after the event is
101:27
over there’ll be two tables please if
101:29
you want to ask me long quest you can’t
101:31
go up through it come up to me and ask
101:32
like some open-ended giant question I’m
101:34
signing your book that would taken out
101:35
like by that you really can’t do that by
101:37
a book the people who are selling ebooks
101:39
have asked that you buy a book first
101:41
before you have it signed and that note
101:48
I’ll segue into there’s a couple
101:49
questions that are connected to this how
101:51
about your market solution arguably the
101:55
mess we’re in now comes from the
101:56
monopolistic and manipulative tendencies
101:58
inherent in markets given that the world
102:01
world has never known pure markets what
102:03
would keep this one pure oh it’s not
102:05
going to be pure it’s going to be
102:07
annoying and unfair and horrible but the
102:09
thing about it is it won’t be extent
102:10
existentially horrible
102:12
the thing about market so what I would I
102:15
believe about economic philosophies is
102:17
there’s never been one that’s worked out
102:19
in practice and instead just asked with
102:21
moral philosophies and theories of how
102:24
we learn and many many other areas where
102:26
we’re trying to deal with very complex
102:27
systems it’s not so much that we can
102:29
seek the perfect answer but we have to
102:31
trade-off between partial answers so to
102:33
me there’s never been a pure market
102:37
there’s never been and I don’t think
102:39
there ever could be but I think what you
102:41
can do is you can get a balance this was
102:43
the the Keynesian approach to economics
102:45
I think is very wise you get you you you
102:48
get a balance between reasonable
102:50
oversight and and in a reasonably
102:53
unfettered market and they’ll go through
102:54
cycle for the market will need help and
102:56
you just you trade off you trade
102:58
and I think that that’s that’s the only
103:01
path we have I think being eyed and
103:04
being an ideologue for any solution to a
103:07
highly complicated problem is always
103:08
wrong okay just two more then and
103:11
there’s a couple like this as well
103:14
what about the connection force of
103:15
social media eg for the feminist
103:18
movement like me to these online
103:21
communities raise awareness and create
103:23
supportive communities and then many
103:25
people who rely on social media for
103:27
community because of the demands of
103:28
capitalist jobs yeah yeah it’s just
103:32
that’s all true except that backfires
103:34
and the backfire is worse than the
103:36
original so like what happened the it
103:40
just keeps on happening I mean like
103:41
before me too there were there was a
103:44
problem of diversity in the gaming world
103:47
and a few women in gaming just wanted to
103:51
be able to say one or two things and not
103:52
be totally invisible and and then the
103:54
result of that was this for Asia’s thing
103:56
called gamergate that was just this
103:58
total never shut up totally wipe
104:01
everybody else out totally make it
104:02
everything horrible movement and then me
104:05
too has spawned this this other thing
104:09
that’s still rising which is the in
104:10
sells and the proud boys and all this
104:12
stuff and the problem is that in these
104:15
open systems at first your experience of
104:19
finding mutual support and creating
104:21
social changes as a entik it’s real it’s
104:23
just that there’s this machine you’re
104:25
not thinking about behind the scenes
104:26
that’s using the fuel you’re providing
104:29
in the form of the data to irritate
104:31
these other people because it gets even
104:33
more of a rise from them and you’re
104:35
creating this other thing that’s even
104:36
more powerful that’s horrible
104:38
even though it wasn’t your intent and
104:39
that’s the thing that keeps on happening
104:40
over and over again it doesn’t
104:42
invalidate the validity of the good
104:44
stuff that happens first it’s just that
104:46
it always backfires well not always but
104:48
typically and you end up you end up
104:53
being slammed and you don’t even like
104:55
one of the things that’s really bad
104:56
about it is that it’s you know it seems
104:59
like it’s just the fault of the creeps
105:01
who come up where it’s actually kind of
105:02
more the fault of the algorithms that
105:04
introduced the creeps to each other and
105:05
then got them excited in this endless
105:07
cycle of using your good intentions to
105:09
irritate the worst people so I mean
105:12
I know the thing is it’s cute
105:14
blacklivesmatter was great I think I
105:16
mean I think it’s wonderful and yet the
105:18
reaction to it was horrible and of a
105:21
higher magnitude and I just think we
105:23
have to find unfortunately until we can
105:26
get rid of the advertising model and the
105:28
giant manipulation machine every time
105:30
you use the big platforms for any kind
105:33
of positive social effect it’ll backfire
105:35
and destroy you and it’s it’s a fool’s
105:38
game even though it’s valid at first in
105:41
the long term it’s a fool’s game okay
105:44
this I don’t like saying that I hate
105:45
saying that it breaks my heart this is
105:47
the last question and it’s existential
105:49
wanna I’ll combine the two two questions
105:53
here seeing how pernicious social media
105:55
has become by being hijacked toward
105:58
bummer and you know bummer is another
106:00
technical term using yeah there’s a
106:04
wonderful writer on cyber things I’m
106:06
sherry Turkle and she read my book and
106:09
she said oh I love this book but there’s
106:10
just too much touching it
106:11
and the thing because it there’s like
106:13
bummer and there’s a cat’s behind on the
106:15
cover stuff and I the problem is I
106:19
married a woman who likes butt jokes and
106:21
I just can’t I don’t know some of they
106:23
just come I don’t know anyway okay so
106:29
how to how to guard against an immersive
106:32
technology like virtual reality becoming
106:35
even more insidiously bummer and then
106:38
how do you know what is real okay oh
106:41
well all right those are small questions
106:43
so the first one I mean I think the way
106:47
to keep fort reality vert reality could
106:49
be super hyper creepy I wrote a book
106:52
about vert reality that we have mention
106:53
it’s called dawn of the new everything I
106:55
don’t know if they’ll have it upfront or
106:56
not but I talked a lot about that issue
106:58
so virtuality could potentially be
107:00
creepy I think the way to tell whether
107:03
something’s getting creepy is whether
107:04
there’s a business model for creepiness
107:06
so if the way it’s making money is that
107:08
there’s somebody to the side who thinks
107:10
they can sneak lis alter you or
107:11
manipulate you that’s the creepy engine
107:14
if there isn’t that person and if there
107:15
isn’t that business going on it’s less
107:18
likely to be creepy I think this is
107:19
actually that’s actually a pretty simple
107:21
question to answer I think it boils down
107:23
to incentives I think incentives run
107:25
world as much or more than anything else
107:27
as far as this question of how to be how
107:29
do you know what’s real
107:30
the answer is imperfect what you do is
107:34
you struggle for it you struggle to do
107:37
scientific experiments to publish you
107:39
have to always recognize you can fool
107:40
yourself you have to recognize that
107:43
whole communities of people can fool
107:44
themselves and you just struggle and
107:45
struggle and struggle and you gradually
107:47
start to form a little island in a sea
107:50
of mystery in which you never have total
107:54
confidence but you start to have a
107:56
little confidence so there’s some things
107:58
that we can be confident of now the
108:01
earth is round not on line but do we
108:06
know it in an absolute absolute sense no
108:09
you can never know reality absolutely
108:11
but you can know it pretty well and so
108:13
in order to talk about reality you have
108:16
to be used you have to get used to near
108:21
perfection that is never actual
108:24
perfection and if you’re not comfortable
108:26
with that concept you have no hope of
108:27
getting to reality because that’s the
108:29
nature of reality reality is not
108:31
something you ever know absolutely and
108:32
in fact just to be clear I in one of my
108:35
books I defined reality is the thing
108:37
that can be never that can never be
108:38
measured exactly it’s the thing that can
108:40
never be simulated accurately it’s the
108:42
thing that can never be described to
108:44
perfection that is reality but at this
108:46
because the simulation can be described
108:48
to perfection I can describe to you a
108:50
video game world or a virtual world to
108:52
perfection I can’t do that with reality
108:54
and the the thing is though that we
108:59
can’t demand absolute knowledge in order
109:01
to have any knowledge at all or else we
109:03
make ourselves into genuine fools we
109:05
have to be able to accept that we can
109:07
have better knowledge than other
109:08
knowledge it’s all an incremental sort
109:11
of eternal improvement project so the
109:16
people who demand absolutely proof of
109:18
climate change or fools but they’re
109:21
interesting like I mean some of you
109:23
might have read there was a good history
109:25
published this week about the history of
109:28
the reading wars about how we learn
109:30
reading and there’s this community of
109:32
people who’ve just been absolutely
109:34
unable to accept a load of scientific
109:37
evidence about how did he
109:38
kids to read effectively because of an
109:40
ideology and they’re sincere and it’s
109:43
like people it’s really really hard
109:45
accepting reality is your life’s work
109:47
it’s really really really hard it’s it’s
109:50
not it doesn’t come naturally
109:52
necessarily it’s a discipline thank you
109:55
all right
109:56
[Applause]
110:03
[Music]
110:04
[Applause]
Jonathan Haidt Explains How Social Media Drives Polarization | Amanpour and Company
In a time of heightened political tension, Jonathan Haidt has a good idea of what’s driving this polarized atmosphere around the world. He is a social psychologist who believes social media has transformed in recent years to become an “outrage machine,” spreading anger and toxicity. He sits down with Hari to discuss this difficult problem and what the possible solutions could be.
Matt Taibi: The Press Does Not Doing Bipartisan Scandals
Transcript
00:00hmm so Jamie pointed out this this00:07congressman is that who it is the Jamie00:11pointed this out that there’s a00:12congressman and he released a series of00:14tweets and the first letter of all these00:17tweets if you put them all together it00:18says Epstein didn’t kill himself or did00:20not kill so notice it didn’t he did how00:25do you do the posture00:26should have gone with did not darting00:28here with that evidence of a link00:30wrapped Paul gaw sir what are the odds00:33this guy did this accidentally really00:35small right that’s kind of like one of00:37those monkeys typing Shakespeare say00:39yeah yeah I don’t think I could it could00:41work and the thing is he did it00:43backwards right so you didn’t see what00:46the puzzle was until the last tweet00:48because the last time he does in E I got00:50a tweet from someone about 35 minutes00:52ago that I don’t know if there’s a bunch00:54of people online paying attention to it00:55or what but someone alerted me and a few00:57other people what it is yeah does he00:59have an image of that fucking that crazy01:01mask is that in his shit too01:03okay he’s a agent he’s got the I was01:07November first V mask yes yeah what is01:10that mask for Vendetta was a01:12representative of something01:14it’s the Guy Fawkes mask yes that’s01:16right right yeah so this guy’s uh he’s01:19he’s thinking along alternative lines of01:21thought but that is really an01:22interesting way of saying it alphabet01:25tree that’s yeah just making a bunch of01:27tweets don’t ever address it just leave01:29it there walk away you know Lewis01:31Carroll was famous for that was he yeah01:33that was one of uh he did a lot of sort01:35of tricks with words you read the book01:38gödel Escher Bach No01:39yeah there’s a whole bunch of stuff in01:41there about people who used who put01:45puzzles in text mmm you know that’s kind01:47of a thing that people did I guess back01:49more in the 18th century in before well01:51this Epstein case is probably the most01:54blatant example of a public murder of a01:59crucial witness I’ve ever seen in my02:00entire life or anybody’s ever seen and02:02the the the minimal amount of outrage02:05about this the no minimal amount of02:07cover it’s fuckin fascinating I mean I02:09what’s amazing to me just as a you know02:12somebody works in the media02:13is that this was shaping up to be the02:15biggest like news story in history yes02:18and the instant he you know he died or02:23was died or however you want to call it02:25it this story just fell off the face of02:27the earth it’s like nobody’s doing02:30anything about it and I I don’t02:32100% understand that I mean I get it why02:35that’s happening but it’s it’s just02:37amazing02:38well when the woman from ABC what was02:41her name Amy that lady the the one who02:46wrote Roebuck you who had the frustrated02:49moment that she called it a frustrating02:51private moment right what she was02:53talking about having the scoop and02:55having that story and them squashing it02:58right like this this is all stuff that03:01everybody used to think was conspiracy03:04everybody’s think this was stoner talk03:06this was you know you don’t I mean like03:08this is stuff where people just a03:11delusional they believe all kinds of03:12wacky conspiracies sure but the reality03:15is much less complicated well this is03:16not possible this is one of those things03:18it’s so obvious it’s so in everyone’s03:21face well there’s a couple of things03:24going on because there there are many03:26different ways than this can play out I03:27mean you could have a news director who03:29just sort of instinctively decides well03:32we can’t do that story because I might03:34want to have well and quedan later or I03:35might want to have this politician on03:37later and it’s it’s not like anybody03:39tells them necessarily that we can’t do03:42this but sighs too hot you if you grow03:44up in this system and you’ve been in the03:46the business for a long time you just03:49you have all these things that are03:51drilled into you and almost like the03:52cellular level about what you can and03:54cannot get into and I think there but03:57there were some explicit things that03:59happen with Epstein to I mean they keep04:00there there were a lot of news agencies04:02that killed stories about him that you04:04know and we’re hearing what some of them04:05in Vanity Fair this thing you know so04:07yeah it’s it’s bit stay it’s bad it’s04:10terrible yeah yeah when when I found out04:13that Clinton flew no less than 26 times04:17on a plane with Epstein I was like dude04:20I haven’t flown that many times with my04:22mom04:23long did he know Epstein yeah I don’t04:26know but I mean they have that many04:28flights to have the Secret Service04:29people involved I mean that’s incredibly04:33bold what was he dealing with just girls04:36was Clinton that much of a hound that he04:40would go that deep into the well that04:42many times 26 times well that’s the04:45thing about the Epson story that makes04:46no sense to me like I I thought that the04:48percentage of people who were out and04:50out like perverts who had a serious04:53problem like with petty ophelia or04:55whatever it was was pretty small you04:57know yeah but your but they had a lot of05:00people coming in and out of this05:02compound and and it just seems like it’s05:04a it’s a very strange story what were05:07they really up to I have I have no idea05:09and was was it all a blackmail scheme05:10it’s just it’s just so strange well05:12seems like the pedophilia aspect of it05:14might be directly connected to Epstein05:16himself like he might be the one that05:19has a problem with girls that are like05:2016 and he likes them very or he did like05:23them but with the other guys it could05:27just be girls05:28it could be yeah yeah I mean that’s why05:29it’s so crazy like how could it be that05:31these but maybe it’s not but they must05:34but they knew who he was05:35yeah but they probably didn’t know the05:37extent of it probably not yeah up until05:40a point up until he was arrested right05:42and then they’re like oh well then05:44that’s when everybody backed off of him05:46right yes yeah I mean I’m not a hundred05:48percent yeah I haven’t covered this05:50story in depth I’ve only I only really05:52got into it a little bit we made you cuz05:59it mixes a lot of things that are are06:00very tough to cover yes you know the06:03intelligence world is very tough to06:04cover mm-hm06:05you know it’s it’s hard to get stories06:07out of there that they don’t want you to06:08have yeah and this is this is like the06:11mother of all stories and you know in06:13terms of that and they’re just little06:15little bread crumbs here and there that06:17whole thing about Acosta06:18you know the vanity vanity fair– quote06:21from him is that when he said that when06:24he looked at the case he didn’t do it06:27because I was told he belonged to06:28intelligence yes what does that mean06:31right now whose intelligence you know06:32what I mean like what agency but what06:34for you06:35and then you pair that with things like06:37you know I have friends on Wall Street06:39who told me I’ve never heard a single06:41instance of this guy actually having a06:43trade right you know so what was his06:45hedge fund doing you know I mean if you06:47think about it hedge funds a perfect way06:48to do blackmail well because you can06:51just have people putting money in and06:52out all the time and it would look like06:55investment yeah so very strange story06:58well Eric Weinstein had a conversation07:00with him you know Eric Weinstein with07:02Peter Thiel capital right yeah he’s like07:04this guy does know what the fuck he’s07:05talking about oh yeah he’s an actor07:09right this is nonsense right right that07:11was initial almost instantaneous07:13response yeah yeah and and and what real07:16clients did he ever have what any07:17jewelry trade and what has he got a07:19billion dollars or whatever he had yeah07:21no it’s half a billion under management07:23yeah it’s ridiculous why the guy who07:25owns Victoria Secrets give him a seventy07:28million dollar home right in New York07:30City like why I mean these are all07:33things that would have been really07:34interesting to get into you know try to07:37kill himself the suicide didn’t happen07:39to him like in the wire all right oh07:41yeah yeah so unfortunate so07:45unfortunately the cameras died so07:47unfortunately sustained an injury that’s07:49uh that you usually only get through07:52strangulation right yeah murders you he07:54fell on the ground and accidentally07:56broke his hyoid bone yeah big deal I08:00mean it’s so bizarre I can’t stand08:03consider conspiracy theories I’m one of08:04these people who who doesn’t like08:06reading but I can’t I can’t make this08:08story work in a way that isn’t you know08:11yes pure toriel’s well that’s the thing08:13it’s like it gets to a point where you08:15like okay even Michael Shermer who runs08:17skeptic magazine wait a minute the08:20cameras we’re not working seems like a08:24conspiracy fucking when Michael Shermer08:26says he that guy doesn’t believe in08:28anything08:28right right he is fucking he’s down the08:31line on virtually every single thing08:33that’s ever happened he doesn’t believe08:35in any conspiracies well well how do you08:37what’s the innocent explanation for any08:39has none that doesn’t make any sense you08:41can’t you can’t spin it in any way to08:43make it not a crazy conspiracies08:46especially when the the brother08:48as a doctor to do an autopsy oh yeah it08:51says date I was fucking murdered right08:53yeah Michael Baden the famous guy from08:55the HBO autopsy show right yep08:57absolutely08:58Oh craziness complete craziness and you09:01know it’s an example of you know the FG09:07star it’s interesting because it’sbecause it’s about villains on bothsides of the aisle right this is aclassic is something I’ve written aboutbefore is that the press does not liketo do stories where the problem isbipartisan yeah right so when you havean institutional problem when Democratsand Republicans both shareresponsibility for it when you know oror if it’s an institution that kind ofexists in perpetuity no matter what theadministration is we don’t really liketo do those stories we like if Fox likesto do stories about Democrats MSNBClikes to do stories about Republicansbut the thing that’s kind of you know09:42all over the place they don’t like to do09:43that story Epstein is you know he’s09:45friends with Trump and and with Clinton09:48I mean yeah obviously has more friends09:49on the Clinton side but still and I09:51think that’s this is one of the reasons09:53why this story doesn’t have a lot of09:55traction in the media because neither09:57side really likes the idea of going too10:00deeply on it feels like to me well it’s10:03but the the blatant aspect of it they10:06don’t mean the closest that we have to10:08that is the absolute murder the JamalKhashoggi murder that’s the closestthing we have to or is absolute murderight this one but but it’s also soinsanely blatant but now you have10:19foreign actors that are involved in it10:20and they all disperse and then there’s10:22left with this confusion of to who’s10:24responsible for it well Saudi Arabia10:27that’s another example where you can’t10:29really say it’s you know one side of theboth parties have been incrediblycomplicit in their cooperation with theSaudi regime and in you know themassacres that are going on Yemen it’s aclassic example of what Noam Chomskyused to talk about with worthy andunworthy victims right like if theSoviet communists did it they were thatwas bad but if death squads in ElSalvador killed a priest or a Catholicpriest you know then that that wassomething we didn’t write about becausethey were our client state Yemen is astory we don’t write about Syriais a story we do write about but they’re11:03really equivalent stories and yeah the11:07but you’re absolutely right the11:08khashoggi thing I don’t think either11:10party and or either sides media really11:12wants to get into that all that deeply11:14how much is media shifting now like11:17you’ve obviously been a journalist for a11:19long time but come how much are things11:21changing in the light of the Internet11:24well a lot and this is what I mean I11:26have a new book out now that’s really11:27about this right what why the business11:29has changed what’s it called hey dink11:31yeah it’s out its out now and it’s it’s11:36really about how the press the business11:38model the press has changed I mean it’s11:40something that you talk about a lot you11:41hear you on your show all the time11:43talking about how news agencies are11:46always trying to push narratives on11:48people trying to get people wound up and11:50upset and that is a conscious business11:53strategy that we didn’t have maybe 3011:56years ago you know you think about11:58Walter Cronkite or what the news was12:00like back in the day you had the whole12:02family sitting around the table and12:04everybody watched it was sort of a12:06unifying experience to watch the news12:08hmm now you have news for the crazy12:11right-wing uncle and then you have news12:12for the kid in the che shirt and their12:15different channels and they’re trying to12:16wind these these people up you know to12:20get them upset constantly and stay there12:22and a lot of that has to do with the12:23Internet because before the internet12:27news companies had like a basically free12:29way of making money they dominated12:31distribution the newspaper was the only12:33thing in town that had a you know if you12:35wanted to get a wan ad it had to be12:37through the local newspaper12:38now with the internet the internet is12:40the distribution system anybody has12:43access to it not just the local12:44newspaper and so there the easy money is12:48gone and we have to chase clicks more12:49than we ever had had to before we have12:52to chase eyeballs more than we have to12:53so we’ve had to build new money-makingstrategies and and a lot of it has to dowith just sort of monetizing anger anddivision and all these things and we13:01just didn’t do that before and it’s a13:03had a profound difference on the13:05on the media as a writer if you13:07personally experienced this sort of the13:10influence where people have tried to13:12lean you in the direction of clickbait13:14or perhaps maybe alter titles that make13:18them a little bit disingenuous in order13:20to get people excited about the I mean13:21you know I my editors at Rolling Stone13:24are pretty good in it and they give me a13:25lot of weight leeway to kind of explore13:27whatever I want to explore but I13:29definitely feel a lot of pressure that I13:30didn’t feel before in the business13:33because especially in the Trump era and13:36and you know I’ve written a lot about13:37the Russia story right but you know13:39that’s an example of one size media does13:43has one take on it and another size13:45media has another take on it and if you13:47are just the journalist and you and you13:49want to just sort of report the facts13:52you feel a lot of pressure to fit the13:53facts into a narrative that your13:55audience is gonna like and I had a lot13:57of problem with the Russia story because13:58I thought you know I don’t like Donald14:00Trump but I’m like I don’t I don’t think14:02this guy’s James Bond consorting with14:04Russian spies I think he’s corrupt in14:07other ways and there was a lot of14:09blowback on my side of the business14:11because you know people in sort of14:15liberal quote-unquote liberal media you14:17just have all there’s a lot of pressure14:18to have everybody fit into a certain14:20narrative and I think that’s really14:21unhealthy for the business yeah14:23very unhealthy right it’s you know14:25because as soon as people can be14:26manipulated to conform it to that14:27narrative then all sorts of stories can14:29be shifted oh yeah yeah absolutely and14:32and you the the job used to be about14:35challenging your audience every now and14:37then right like if you think a certain14:38thing is true well it’s our job to give14:40you the bad news and say that you’re14:41wrong about that that used to be what14:43the job was to be journalists now it’s14:45the opposite now we have an audience14:48we’re gonna tell you exactly what you14:49want to hear and what you and we’re14:51gonna reinforce what you think and14:53that’s very unhealthy a great example of14:56this was in the summer of 2016 I was15:00covering the campaign I started to hear15:03reporters talking about how they didn’t15:06want to report poll numbers that showed15:08the race was closed they thought that15:10that was gonna hurt Hillary all right15:12like we said in other words we had15:13information that the race was closed and15:15we’re not telling this to audiences15:17because15:18they wanted to hear that it was gonna be15:20a blowout for Hillary right on and that15:23didn’t help Hillary it didn’t help the15:25Democrats do not warn people about this15:27right but it was just because if you15:30turned on MSNBC or CNN and you heard15:33that Trump was within five points or15:35whatever it was that was gonna be a15:37bummer for that audience so we stayed15:39away from it and you know this is the15:42kind of thing it’s it’s not politically15:44beneficial to anybody it’s just we’re15:46just trying to keep people glued to the15:48set by telling them what they want to15:50hear and that’s not the news that’s not15:51that’s not our job you know and it15:53drives me crazy15:55yeah it should drive you crazy that what15:57you said about journalism being it used16:00to be something that you’re challenging16:02your reader you’re you’re giving them16:04this reality that may be uncomfortable16:06but it’s it’s educational and expands16:09their view of the world this where do16:11they get that now they don’t that’s the16:13whole problem16:14like you get you can predict exactly16:17what the each news organization what16:21their take is going to be on any issue16:23by going oh16:24just did you take an example when when16:28the business about the Isis leader al16:30Baghdadi16:31being killed hit the news16:34instantaneously you knew that the New16:36York Times CNN and the Washington Post16:39that they were going to write a whole16:40bunch of stories about how Trump was16:42overplaying the significance of it that16:44he you know that he was telling lies16:48about it they were they mate they you16:50knew they were gonna make the entire16:51thing about Trump and then meanwhile Fox16:54had a completely different spin on about16:55how heroic it was but but news audiences16:58didn’t have anywhere to go to just16:59simply hear who was this person17:01why was he important what were the17:03growth of the people in the region think17:05you know what kind of what is this gonna17:07mean going forward is they actually17:09gonna have any impact you know is are we17:13gonna have to continually you know is17:16there gonna be a new person like this17:17every every time are we actually17:19accomplishing it you don’t get that17:21anywhere all you get is Trump is a17:23shithead on one side and Trump is a hero17:25on the other side that’s that’s not the17:27news you know yeah and but the thing is17:29it’s like17:31the business aspect of it is so weird17:33like you have your guys like Hannity or17:35you can absolutely predict what that17:37guy’s gonna say every single time you17:38know what side he’s on and he’s blatant17:41about it mhm and when you see someone17:45like that you go okay well this is okay17:47where this is this is peak bullshit17:48right so where where do we go where I17:51see both sides where’s the where’s the17:53where’s the middle ground where someone17:55goes well this is true but you gotta say17:57this is honest too and this is this is17:59what’s going on over on this side and18:00the Republicans have a point here and18:02you don’t you don’t18:04there’s no mainstream media place where18:07you can go for that right now18:08no there isn’t and that’s I mean I mean18:10one of this is one of things already but18:11this is one of the reasons why shows18:12like yours are so popular I mean I think18:14there’s a complete loss of trust that18:17they feel like people are not being18:18honest with them all right and they’re18:20not being straight and you know they18:22they come to people like you and and a18:25lot of other people of independent folks18:27who aren’t like the quote-unquote18:29mainstream media because they it’s not18:34really thought it’s not reporting it’s18:36not anything if you can predict a18:37hundred percent what a person’s going to18:39say that’s not thinking that’s not18:41reporting that’s not it’s just marketing18:42someone like me that’s so disturbing I’m18:44a fuckin comedian and a Cagefighting18:46commentator when people are coming to me18:48like this is this is the source where18:51you go for unbiased representations of18:53what’s going on the world that’s crazy18:55well I mean I started interview with18:58Barry Weiss right and you just you did a19:01simple base you didn’t go to journalism19:02school right no no so she said something19:06about how you know oh she’s an Assad19:09toady and you said what does that mean19:12you just ask the simple basic questions19:14right what does that mean where is that19:16coming from how do you know that you19:18know yeah like journalism isn’t brain19:21surgery that’s all it is is to asking19:22the simple questions that sort of pop to19:24mind when you when you’re in a situation19:26like where did this happen how do we19:28know that that’s true and but there’s a19:32whole generation of people in the press19:33now who just simply do not do that go19:36through the process of just asking19:37simple questions like how do I know19:39that’s true like after each story your19:41report you’re supposed to kind of like19:43wipe your memory clean and start over19:45so just because somebody was banned the19:47last time you covered them doesn’t mean19:48that they’re necessarily going to be the19:50bad guy this time you cover them all19:52right you have to continually test your19:54assumptions and ask yourself is this19:57true is that true is this true how do we19:59know this and we’ve just stopped doing20:02that like the it’s just the maratha of20:04like pre-written20:06takes on things and it’s it’s really20:09really bad and you can see why audiences20:12are fleeing from this stuff they just20:14don’t have the impact they used to well20:16it’s really interesting this a lot of20:17this is this unpredicted consequence of20:20having these open platforms like20:22Facebook and like where people are20:24getting their news and then the20:25algorithm sort of directs them towards20:28things that are going to piss them off20:30which I don’t even think necessarily was20:33initially the plan I think the plan is20:35to accelerate engagement right so they20:37find out what what what you’re engaging20:40with what stories you’re engaging with20:41and then they give you more of that like20:44re my friend Ari Shaffir actually tried20:47this out and what he did was he went on20:50YouTube and only looked puppy videos and20:54that’s all he looked at for like weeks20:56and then YouTube only started20:58recommending puppy videos to him so it’s21:01not necessarily that Facebook wants you21:04to be outraged but that when you are21:06outraged whether it’s over abortion or21:08war whatever the subject is you’re going21:10to engage more and their algorithm21:12favors you engaging more so if you’re21:14engaging more about something very21:16positive you know if you’re all about21:17yoga and meditation your algorithm would21:20probably favor yoga and meditation21:22because those are the things that you21:23engage with but it’s natural for people21:26to be pissed off sure to look for things21:29that are annoying especially if you’re21:30done working and you’re like kind this21:31world sucks what’s going on that sucks21:33worse and then you go to your Facebook21:35and oh Jesus look at this goddamn border21:37crisis right oh Jesus look at this while21:39fucking here’s the problem with these21:41goddamn liberal they don’t know sure and21:42you engage and then that’s your life and21:46then it’s it’s saying oh I know how to21:47get mad all fired up I’m gonna fucking21:49send them some abortion stories whoa21:51right and then that’s your feed right21:53yeah exactly but the but there’s so many21:55economic incentives that go in there21:57right they know the21:58more that you engage the longer that22:01you’re on right the more ads yes you can22:03you’re gonna see yeah right so that same22:05dynamic that Facebook and and the social22:08media companies figure it out22:10which is that if you keep feeding22:12something somebody something that you22:14know has been proven to spin that person22:16up and get them wound up that they’re22:18gonna they’re gonna come back for more22:20of it and they’re gonna keep coming back22:22and actually you can expand their desire22:24just to see that stuff by by making them22:27sort of more angry overall and they will22:31they will come back and they will spend22:33more and more and more time well the22:34news companies figured out the same22:35thing and they’re just they’re just22:36funneling stuff at you that they know22:39you’re gonna you’re gonna just be in an22:42endless cycle of sort of an impotent22:43mute rage all the time but it’s kind of22:46addicting you know and they know that22:48and in there and it’s it’s sort of like22:50the tobacco companies they know it’s a22:51bet it’s a product that’s bad for you22:53and they just keep giving it to you22:55because you know it makes money for them22:56yeah and it’s just the thing about it is23:00all of it is about ads told how many23:04clicks they get in ads if they just said23:06you can have a social media company but23:08you can’t have ads there’s a new federal23:11law no more ads on Facebook no more ads23:13on YouTube no our ads on Twitter no more23:16ads on Instagram good luck right yeah23:19we’re all collapse yo yeah but that23:22seems to be what it is it’s like they23:24figured out that your data is worth a23:26tremendous amount of money and the way23:29they can utilize that money is to sell23:31advertising mm-hmm ya know they they23:33coulda coming and going because they’re23:35they’re not only selling you ads or but23:38they’re also collecting the information23:39about your habits which they can then23:41sell again yeah so it’s a it’s a dual23:43revenue stream you know is it the media23:46companies they’re basically they’re just23:49consumer businesses where they’re23:51they’re trading attention for ad space23:53right so if they can get you to watch23:55four hours of television a day they have23:57that many ad slots that they can show23:59you and they know how much money they’re24:00gonna make you know but the the social24:02media companies get it two ways they’re24:04they they get it by you know attracting24:06your eyeballs and then also selling24:08selling your habits to the other the24:10next set of advertise24:11which you know is very insidious but24:13what’s interesting about this is that24:14most people don’t think about this as a24:17consumer business right like Americans24:19these days are very conscious of like24:20what they put in their bodies24:21you know they won’t eat too many candy24:23bowl depending on who they are right but24:25people at least look at what the24:26calories are but they don’t think about24:28the news that way or social media like24:31that with it put on their brains and24:32it’s also a consumer product yeah it24:34really is I’ve gone over that many times24:37with people that that’s a diet this is24:39your diet you have a mental diet as well24:41as you have a physical like food diet24:43absolutely of an information diet and a24:46lot of people are just eating shit with24:48their brain it’s the worst kind of junk24:50food it’s like it’s like a cigarette24:52sandwich the stuff yeah it’s so fucking24:54bad and it’s getting worse it is it is24:56getting worse and it’s what’s weird is24:58that this is a ten-year-old problem and25:00no one saw it coming and it’s kind of25:02overtaking politics it’s overtaking the25:04social discourse everybody’s wrapped up25:07in social media conversations they carry25:09them on over to the dinner table and it25:11gets people in arguments at work and all25:14this stuff no one saw coming these that25:17no one saw the this outrage economy from25:21you know social media sites from things25:23like Facebook no one saw that no one no25:25one ever predicted that your data was25:27gonna be so valuable no the fuck saw25:29that I don’t think anybody I mean I25:32think some people in the tech business25:33probably saw early on yeah it’s a25:35potential for this but you know in terms25:38of other other businesses like the news25:41media and also politics I mean you have25:43to think about the impact of this on25:45politics has been enormous25:47you know I covered Donald Trump Trump25:50really was just all about whatever25:52you’re pissed off about I’m right there25:54with you you know and people are just25:56sort of pissed off about lots of things25:58these days because they’re doing this25:59all day long you know and if you if you26:02can if you can take advantage of that26:05then you’re gonna have a lot of success26:06and I think I think a lot of people26:07haven’t figured that out and some of26:09these things are real causes like people26:11are upset about real things but it’s26:14just yeah you’re absolutely right people26:16did not see this coming and they didn’t26:18prepare for it’s just weird that it’s26:19one of the biggest sources of income on26:22and people didn’t see it coming I mean26:24Facebook is generating billions of26:27dollars and now yeah potentially26:29shifting global politics yeah and you26:33know the the whole issue of a couple of26:36companies like Facebook having control26:39over what you do and do not see is yeah26:41it’s an enormous problem that nobody26:43nobody really cares about I’ve tried to26:45write about it a few times I’ve written26:47a couple of features about it what about26:49how what a serious problem this is look26:51if you look at other countries like26:53Israel China there there are a number of26:58companies where you’ve seen this this26:59pattern of internet platforms27:02liaison with the government to decide27:04what people can and cannot see and27:06they’ll say well we don’t want to see27:09you know Palestinian protest movement so27:11we don’t want to see you know the27:13Venezuelan Channel tell us or like we27:16want to take that off you think about27:18how that could end up happening in the27:20United States and it is already a little27:21bit happening it’s a little bit but it27:23seems to be happening only in the terms27:25of like leaning towards the progressive27:27side which people are okay with because27:28they think especially in the light of27:30Donald Trump being in office this is27:32acceptable censorship yeah but they’re I27:34think they’re wrong about I think you’re27:36wrong about that – yeah and terribly27:38dangerous27:38it’s very short-sighted yes in and they27:41and I think there’s there’s also this27:43thing that happens with people where27:46they think well this is never gonna27:48happen to me you know like you can do27:50that bad thing to this person that I27:52don’t like but you know as long as it’s27:53never gonna happen to me exactly but27:55they’re wrong and my history shows it27:57always does happen to you you know and27:58that’s so we’re giving these companies28:00an enormous amount of power to decide28:02all kinds of things what we look at what28:06what kind of political ideas we can be28:08exposed to you know I think it’s very28:11very dangerous28:11that biased interpretation of what28:13something is that was what people talked28:16about when the initial Patriot Act was28:18enacted when people were like hey this28:21might be fine with Obama in office right28:23maybe Obama is not going to enact some28:28of the worst clauses of this and use it28:30on people or the was the NDAA so I would28:34rise yeah28:35where some of the things were just28:36completely unconstitutional but don’t28:38worry we’re not gonna use those but28:40you’re setting these tools aside for28:43whatever fucking president we have like28:45what if we have a guy you out trumps28:46Trump right I mean we never thought we’d28:48have a Trump right what if we have a28:50next-level guy post Trump what if28:52there’s some sort of catastrophe tragedy28:56attack something that really gets people28:59fired up and they vote in someone who29:01takes it up to another level and then he29:03has these tools and then he uses these29:04tools on his political enemies which is29:06entirely possible well I mean we’ve29:08already seen that a little bit I mean29:10people don’t want to bring this up I29:11mean i but you know a lot of the stories29:14that have come out about Trump they’re29:15coming from leaks of classified29:17information that are coming from those29:19war on terror programs that were29:21instituted after 9/11 yes this is five29:23the certifies Amendments Act the NSA29:26programs to collect data like they’re29:27they’re unmasking people like we have a29:30lot of evidence now that there was a29:32lawsuit a couple that came out about a29:33month ago that showed that the FBI was29:37doing something like 60,000 searches a29:39month at one point where they’re on you29:42know they were asking the NSA for the29:44ability to unmask names and that that29:45sort of thing so we’re I mean these29:49tools are incredibly powerful they’re29:51incredibly dangerous but people thought29:52after 9/11 they were scared so you know29:55we want to protect ourselves so that’s29:57okay for now29:58you know well we’ll pull it back later30:00but they mean it but you never do pull30:02it back right no and I mean it always30:04ends up being used by somebody in the30:06wrong way and I think we’re starting to30:08see that that’s going to be a problem30:09yeah I’m real concerned about places30:13like Google and Facebook altering the30:16path of free speech and and leaning30:20people in certain directions and30:21silencing people that have opposing30:23viewpoints and the fact that they think30:26that they’re doing this for good because30:28this is how they see the world and they30:30don’t understand that you have to let30:32these ideas play out in the marketplace30:34of free speech and free ideas if you30:36don’t do that if you don’t do that if30:38you don’t let people debate the merits30:40the pros the cons what’s wrong what’s30:42right if you don’t do that then you30:44don’t get real discourse if you don’t30:45get real discourse you’re essentially30:47you’ve got some sort30:48of an intellectual dictatorship going on30:49and because it’s a progressive30:51dictatorship you think it’s okay because30:53it’s people who want everybody be30:55inclusive and you know I mean this is30:58this is a weird time for that it’s a31:00really weird time for that because as31:01you said people are so short-sighted31:03they don’t understand that these like31:05the First Amendment’s in place for a31:07very good reason and set up a long31:09fucking time ago because they did the31:10math they saw where it was going and31:12they were like look we have to have the31:14ability to express ourselves we have to31:15have the ability to freely express31:18thoughts and ideas and challenge people31:20that are in a position of power because31:21if we don’t we wind up exactly where we31:24came from mm-hmm yeah no and and courts31:27continually reaffirmed that idea that31:30the the the way to deal with bad speech31:33was with more speech yes and they did it31:35over and over and over again you know we31:37we the the legal standard for speech you31:41know still I think remains that unless31:45it’s directly inciting violence you31:46couldn’t you could like you can have31:47speech that incites violence generally31:49and even the the Supreme Court even31:51upheld that you can have speech that’s31:53that comes from you know material that31:55was stolen illegally that’s okay but we31:58had a very very high bar for prohibiting32:00speech always and you know the the32:03liable cases this the cases for32:05defamation you know that also32:08established a very very high standard32:09for punishing speech but now all of a32:12sudden people have a completely32:13different idea but it’s like you know32:15forget about the fact that this was a32:17fundamental concept in American society32:19for you know two hundred and thirty32:21years or what they just want to change32:22it you know without thinking about the32:25consequences well that’s where a guy32:26like Trump could be almost like it’s32:30almost like a Trojan horse in a way like32:33if you wanted to play 3d chess which you32:35would do you’d get a guy who’s just so32:37egregious and so outrageous and then so32:40many people opposed them get that guy32:42let him get into a position of power and32:44then sit back watch the outrage bubble32:46and then take advantage of that and32:48funnel people into certain directions I32:50mean I don’t think that’s what’s32:51happening but if I was super fucking32:54tinfoil Hattie that’s how I would go32:57about it I would say this is what you32:58want if you really want to change things33:00for your direction33:01put someone that opposes it that’s33:04disgusting and that way people just a33:07rational intelligent person is never33:10gonna side with him33:11so they’re gonna side with the people33:12that oppose him and then you could sneak33:14a lot of shit in that maybe they33:15wouldn’t agree with and any other33:16circumstance yeah Trump’s election sort33:19of like another 9/11 right like you know33:219/11 happened all of a sudden people who33:23weren’t in favor of the government being33:25able to go through your library records33:27or listen to your phone calls and all of33:29a sudden they were like oh Jesus I’m so33:30freaked out like yeah fine when Trump33:33got elected all of a sudden people33:34suddenly had very different ideas about33:36speech and like they you know hey that33:39guy’s so bad you know that maybe we33:42should consider banning x y&z yeah and I33:46yeah it’s me if he was conceived as a33:52way to discredit the First Amendment and33:55some other ideas that would that would33:57that would be a brilliant 3d chess move33:59yeah super sneaky yeah that’s like China34:02level many steps ahead exactly I mean34:07what do you think all this goes it seems34:11like this is I mean obviously just wrote34:13a book about it but it seems like this34:15is accelerating and it doesn’t seem like34:18anyone’s taking a step back and hitting34:20the brakes or opting out it seems like34:23people are just ramping up the rhetoric34:25yeah I mean I think that the the34:27divisive miss problem is is going to get34:29worse before it gets better34:32the the business model of of of the34:35media now is so entrenched that until34:39some of these these companies start34:42going out of business because they’re34:43doing you know they’re losing audience34:46because people don’t trust them anymore34:48the you know the news is going to keep34:50doing what it’s doing it’s gonna Canada34:52model is gonna become normal for for34:55news companies I think it or it already34:57basically is you know on both the left34:59and the right and in terms of you know35:02the Internet companies they’re35:05consolidating they’re getting more and35:06more power all the time and there’s I I35:09think we’ve already seen that people35:11have I think too much tolerance for35:13letting letting them make decisions35:14about35:15what we can and cannot see and I think35:18it’s gonna get worse before it gets35:19better I don’t know what do you think I35:20yeah that’s what I think I mean Facebook35:22Twitter all these play Twitter has some35:24of the most ridiculous reasons for35:25banning people one of them is dead35:27naming oh yeah35:28so if you call Caitlyn Jenner Bruce35:30right okay I like you better when you35:32were Bruce banned for life right you35:34can’t even say I liked you better when35:35you were Bruce banned for life right35:38yeah and and and actually that that35:40what’s really interesting about that is35:42that’s a that’s a core concept that35:46we’ve changed completely like all the35:48different ways in the past that we35:49punished speech we punished the speech35:52not the person yes right so if you know35:55liable defamation all those things first35:58of all they were all done through the35:59courts so you had a way to fight back if36:02you thought you were unjustly accused of36:04having defamed somebody or live with36:05somebody but if they found against you36:08the person who got something out of it36:11was the person who was directly harmed36:12right and again the courts judged that36:14and they you know it wasn’t like you36:17were banned from for life from ever36:19speaking again right they just gave a36:21bunch of money to a person who might36:23have suffered some kind of career injury36:24or whatever it was because of that and36:28usually there was a retraction or it was36:30removed from the press or whatever it36:31was but it wasn’t like we were we were36:33saying we’re never gonna allow you to be36:35hurt or seen from again we kind of won’t36:38we were sort of encouraging36:39optimistically people to get better36:41right and yeah and to be different right36:44now and now we’re not doing that at all36:45now we’re just saying you won one strike36:47or two strikes whatever you’re gone and36:49it’s not like it’s a public thing so you36:52can’t sue over it right yeah well that’s36:54what’s crazy about it because it is a36:56public utility in a way yes it is even36:59Jack Dorsey from Twitter and admitted as37:02much on the podcast and he wishes that37:04we would view it that way he’s actually37:05proposed two versions of Twitter a37:08Twitter with their standard censorship37:11in place and then a Wild West Twitter37:13mm-hmm but I’m like sign me up right37:15yeah on that Wild West Twitter right is37:17the problem with like things like gab37:19and I’ve gone there a few times and37:22watched it and I mean even Milo Union37:24appleís is criticized for being this is37:26that it’s just like so hate-filled37:27because it’s the place where you can go37:29and37:29fuckin say anything right so the only37:31people that it’s attracting are people37:33that just want to go there and just37:34fucking shoot off canons of n-bombs and37:36RAL everybody a kike it’s crazy37:39I mean it’s and there’s real37:41communication there as well there’s37:43there’s plenty of that too but the sheer37:47number of people that go there just to37:49blow off steam because they can’t say37:51those things on Twitter or Facebook or37:53any other social media platform without37:55being banned because of that it becomes37:57a channel for it mm-hmm you know and37:59it’s like it doesn’t get a chance it38:01doesn’t get a chance to the concept is38:03great the concept is if you’re not doing38:05anything illegal we’re not gonna stop38:07you’re not daxing anybody you’re not38:08threatening anybody’s life we’re not38:09gonna stop you go ahead but if you you38:11do that and you’re the only one that38:13does that unfortunately everyone who38:15wants to just say fucked up shit goes38:18right and you get a disproportionate38:19amount of fucked up shit38:21yeah and it’s directly because the fact38:23that these places like Twitter or38:24Facebook have censored and they make it38:27so you are scared to say whatever you38:29want to say mm-hmm and so you can so38:31even if you have controversial ideas38:33that maybe some people would agree with38:34in someone you get banned for life for38:37just controversial ideas even38:39controversial ideas that are38:40scientifically and biologically factual38:43right the transgender issue like if you38:46say there’s a woman I brought her up a38:48million times when Megan Murphy yes a38:51man is never a woman she says they tell38:53her to take it down she takes a38:55screenshot of it puts that up takes it38:57down but takes a screenshot of the38:59initial tweet haha look at that banned39:02for life right a man is never a woman is39:04a fact that is a fact it’s a biological39:06fact now if you decide to become a woman39:09and we recognize you as a woman in39:11society well that’s just common courtesy39:12in my eyes like you have a person who39:14has this issue they feel like they were39:16born in the wrong body okay I get that39:18I’m cool with that39:19but to make it so that you’re banned39:21forever you can call someone a dumb fuck39:24an idiot a piece of shit your mother39:27should have swallowed you everybody’s39:28like yeah do Petain Terms of Service39:29seem fine here everything’s good say a39:32man is never a woman gone for life right39:35yeah Caitlyn Jenner I liked you better39:37when you’re bruce dunn that’s it yeah no39:40and and it’s crazy and obviously39:42people see that and they and they just39:44get matter and and it seems to39:46legitimate39:47it makes people very very resentful in39:50ways that they wouldn’t be otherwise it39:52makes there’s no pathway there’s no39:54there’s no other thing right there’s no39:56free speech platform that’s universally39:59accepted like these ones like I said40:02like gab or there’s a couple other ones40:03out there there’s not no one’s using40:06them yeah it’s a very small percentage40:07of the people in comparison to something40:09like Twitter which is enormous right and40:11so because people don’t want to be40:13kicked off the platform they’re40:14radically changing there is no sense40:18right and we’re seeing this a lot also40:19with political ideas to like you know40:22you know I have a podcast used useful40:24idiots it’s called right we’re like we40:26try to talk to people who are kind of40:28excluded from mainstream media because40:30that’s happening a lot now right like if40:32you have the wrong idea about anything40:35whether it’s Russia gate or the40:38israel-palestine conflict or Syria or40:40whatever it is you’ll you will suddenly40:44be sort of labeled I mean with tulsi40:46gabbard friends they call her an40:47assadist right like once you get stuck40:50with the term assadist on twitter nobody40:52wants to associate you with you no one40:54wants to defend you right they all kind40:56of and be it’s your you’re like suddenly40:59like the kid with lice and people don’t41:02want that to happen to them so they stop41:04saying X Y & Z yeah right and and they41:06just sort of go with with the flow will41:08go with the crowd and it causes this41:10sort of you know uniform conformist41:16discourse that does isn’t really about41:18anything right people are afraid to talk41:20which is crazy yeah right well you’re41:23not supposed to talk to someone I41:25experience this all the time the this41:27idea of giving someone a platform like41:29look if I have someone on like a ben41:31shapiro or something like that you41:32shouldn’t give that guy a platform well41:34he’s already got a platform should41:36wouldn’t be better if I just talk to him41:37and find out what his ideas are and ask41:40him about those ideas like we had a very41:41bizarre conversation about gay people41:43where it means basically full on41:46biblical religious interpretation of gay41:49people which to me is always strange41:52like okay how do you stand on shellfish41:54you know do you41:56just as strong on shrimp whereas your on41:59gay guys right like why is it gay guys42:02it’s that like the Bible’s pretty clear42:05on a bunch of different things that42:07don’t seem to fire people up the way42:10homosexuality does like why why do you42:13care if you had a friend that was eating42:14shrimp would you go to his house we had42:16shrimp cocktail no but you wouldn’t go42:18to a friend’s house if he was having a42:20gay marriage mm-hmm so you won’t42:23celebrate gay marriage but you don’t42:25mind a guy who’s got a fucking a42:27shellfish platter right out at a party42:30like that’s in the Bible man right42:33you’re not supposed to wear two42:33different kinds of cloth you you know42:36that is the bunt there’s a bunch of shit42:38in the Bible that you like Wow God was42:40wrong about that like how confident are42:42you right how comforting you that you42:44can interpret God’s Word so perfectly42:46that you’re like you let the lobster42:48slide but all that but fucking we got to42:50stop that you know like it’s really42:52weird but that’s the whole point of you42:54to challenge the idea yes yes but but42:57the prevailing view now is that even43:00having the discussion yes because you43:03have a platform I mean I read that thing43:05in Al and the Atlantic you know where43:06they’re like you you you give people to43:09I forget what the phrase was they were43:11saying something like you had I give to43:14people too many chances too many chances43:15the people who had already forfeited the43:17right to have them or something43:18something along those lines but that was43:20silly yeah guy gave up his hand when he43:21said about me that I’m inexhaustible but43:24that he like snaps right oh it’s about43:27you and now that’s what it is you not43:30you like naps okay so you don’t like43:32people that have energy I’m super sorry43:34but the the you know I thought that43:36piece was really interesting because43:38that the whole idea that there are43:40people who have forfeited the right to43:42take a forever to communicate forever43:44well who decides that I mean it again43:46there’s this there’s this intellectual43:48snob ISM yet goes on and you know43:52frankly on my side of the media aisle43:54where well we’ll decide what what an43:56appropriate thought is what’s what’s43:58right thinking what’s wrong thinking you44:01know what who gets to have a platform44:03who doesn’t get to have a platform who44:04we who were gonna call a monster who are44:06not currently I mean Minh Tunder stand44:09that the arrogance where44:10from to decide that some people you know44:13and I totally disagree with people like44:14you know Alex Jones or Shapiro or you44:17know most things and but I don’t think44:20that they should be wiped off the face44:21of the earth I mean I don’t know44:23well it’s interesting to challenge44:24people on these weird ideas and find out44:26how they come to them and and you will44:28get a lot of fence sitters that will44:30recognize the flaws in their thinking if44:32you let them talk because there’s a lot44:34of people that aren’t sure either way44:35maybe they haven’t invested a lot of44:37time investigating it maybe they really44:39don’t know what this guy stands for44:41maybe they just read a cartoonish44:42version of who he is and then you get to44:44hear them talking to go oh well I see44:46the flaw in his thinking or oh well he’s44:49right about some things and a lot of44:50people are right about some things44:52they’re wrong about things and they’re44:54right about things and the only way you44:55can discern that is you communicate with44:58them but as soon as you deep platform44:59people like forever you’re just gonna45:01make a bunch of angry people you’re just45:03gonna make a bunch of people that are45:05completely distrusting and you’re gonna45:07absolutely empower the opponents of your45:10ideas but like people that do get to45:13when when do they get a chance to have45:14their voice well when they vote so the45:17more you do this shit the more you45:18censor conservatives the more they’re45:20gonna vote against liberals this is just45:22a fact45:23mm-hmm there’s no getting around that45:24this is human nature yeah I mean I I45:26lived in the former Soviet Union you45:30know for 11 years and 100% if you lived45:36in Soviet Russia and something was45:38published by an official publisher45:40people thought it was basically bullshit45:42right but if it was in the samizdat if45:45it was in the privately circled stuff45:47that had been repressed and censored45:48people thought that was the coolest45:50thing in the world like that that was45:51the hot ticket right and you’re45:53automatically giving something cachet45:56and an added weight by censoring it I46:01mean this is just proof it’s just the46:02way it works it’s human nature if people46:04think that you don’t want them to see46:05something they’re gonna run through it46:07twice as hard you know so I just don’t46:09understand a lot of that instinct I46:11think people people have this idea that46:13it works that you know the deep46:16platforming works but you can’t deep46:18platformer an idea you know you may be46:20able to do it to a person or to yes but46:23you eventually46:23you have to confront the idea you could46:25do it to a few people and it has been46:27successful which is one of the reason46:28why people are so emboldened like they46:30have a successful IDI platform Milo46:32mm-hmm I mean they really have it’s very46:34hard to hear him talk anymore you don’t46:36he’s not in the public conversation the46:39way he used to be right because they46:41kicked him off of all these different46:42platforms and if you go into why they46:45kicked him off these different platforms46:46but even if you don’t agree with him and46:48I don’t own a lot of things like boy I46:51don’t agree with kicking him off those46:52platforms if you you listen to what he46:54got kicked off for it’s like man I don’t46:56know this this doesn’t seem like this46:58makes a lot of sense yeah no I mean the47:01same thing with Alex Jones47:02yeah Alex Alex Jones has said you know47:05he’s got after me a couple of times in47:07ways that were pretty funny actually but47:09when he was you know kicked off the all47:12these platforms you know I wrote a piece47:14saying I think people are kind of doing47:16an end zone dance a little early on this47:18one you know because you Jones is a47:22classic example of how the system47:25the way the system used to work they47:26would have punished him for for being in47:29the libelous about the Sandy Hook thing47:31right because that that would sort of47:33fit the classic definition of what was47:34what prohibited speech was before but we47:37wouldn’t any he would have lost probably47:39a lot and he still might on in those47:41court cases but to remove him forever I47:44think you know it just sets it it47:48creates a new way of dealing with speech47:51that I think is very dangerous you know47:53right because the goalposts keep getting47:54moved right if you can ban him for that47:57then why don’t you ban me for repeating47:59the things that I said about Megan48:01Murphy right or ban because what I said48:03about Bruce Jenner banned this for that48:06I mean you it gets you get further and48:08further down the line you keep moving48:09these goalposts and next thing you know48:11you’re in a very rigid tightly48:13controlled area where you can48:15communicate and you’re suppressed and48:17that just it accelerates your desire to48:21step out of that boundary and it makes48:23you want to say things that maybe you48:24wouldn’t even have thought of before and48:26also logistically it’s an incredibly48:28it’s a it’s an insane thing to even48:31think about asking platforms to48:34rationally go through all this content I48:36talked to somebody who48:37a pretty high-ranking Facebook executive48:38after the Alex Jones thing and he said48:41think about what we used to used to do48:42just to keep porn off Facebook and we’re48:46dealing with what a couple of billion48:48items of content every single day we had48:50these really high-tech algorithms that48:52we design to look for flesh tones at48:54that site and that’s how the Vietnamese48:57running girl photo got taken off48:59Facebook because they like automatically49:01spotted a naked girl I know and they49:04took that down you know the he’s like49:07the Facebook I’ll go doesn’t know that’s49:08an icon of fucking journalism right like49:10it just knows it’s a naked girl so you49:13say you take that and now you’re gonna49:15ask Facebook to make decisions about49:17about ideas right like if it’s that hard49:21and that expensive for us to go through49:23and just just to keep child porn off of49:27Facebook think about how crazy it’s49:29gonna be when we when we start having49:31entry-level people deciding what is and49:33is not appropriate political content49:35yeah it’s it’s not only gonna be49:37impossible to enforce it’s it’s gonna49:41they’re gonna make a mess of it and they49:43will and they already are you know and I49:44think that’s what we’re seeing well49:46that’s why Twitter so weird because you49:48can get away with shit on Facebook you49:50can say things on Facebook like Facebook49:52doesn’t have a policy about dead naming49:54or Facebook doesn’t have a policy about49:56misgendering people but they do have a49:59porn policy50:00well now Twitter you can have porn right50:04me then I will have to be very careful50:06when I give my phone to my kids50:08that make sure they don’t open up the50:09fucking Twitter app yeah because I50:11follow a lot of dirty girls and some of50:12them I mean they’re it’s just right50:15there there’s no warning bang right in50:17your face I mean it’s kind of crazy50:18right they have such an open policy when50:22it comes to sex which I’m happy they do50:24I’m happy not even that I want to see50:26porn but I’m happy that their attitude50:28is just fine it’s legal do yeah you50:32don’t have to follow those people if you50:33don’t like it seems like it’s in the50:35American spirit to be I know but but it50:38all comes down to for me but but ya know50:41the the policies are completely50:43inconsistent to with with Twitter like50:45I’ve seen I mean I’ve talked to people50:46who have been removed from Twitter for50:49saying pretty50:50you know pretty borderline things right50:53like they’re you know basically pretty50:55mild insults or something that would be50:57threatening only if you really splinted50:59hard you know51:00there was a guy from the Ron Paul51:01Institute who got this who got taken51:03down for instance because he was having51:04a fight with some you know guy who was I51:07think a Clinton fan I forget what it was51:09exactly but you’ll see behavior that’s51:13much worse from people who have another51:16political ilk and they will not be51:18removed or they might be a smaller51:20profile person they won’t be removed so51:22and then what is that all about right51:24like if if it’s only a person who has51:2520,000 followers or higher we’re gonna51:27mean it’s just so you just can’t do it51:30there’s just too many layers and anyway51:33I’m against it just generally but just51:35in terms of logistics it doesn’t make51:36any sense I’m against it generally too51:38and when I talked to Jack and he was51:39explaining to me the problems with51:41trying to manage things at scale you51:44really kind of get a sense of it like oh51:46you guys are dealing with billions and51:48billions of humans using these things51:50right yeah yeah and and but they’re51:53already you know in many countries51:56around the world they have armies of51:59thousands of people who go through52:01content to try to flag this or that kind52:03of political content yeah in a niche52:05people yeah they have you know in52:07Germany has like it got I forget what52:10the term was they had this um some52:11really scary sort of authoritarian word52:13for like filtration centers or something52:15like that52:16you know the Chinese have have armies of52:20people I mean I did a story about52:21Facebook and how it was you know teaming52:25up with groups like the the Atlantic52:27Council here in the United States52:28remember a couple of years ago the52:31Senate called in Twitter Facebook and52:33Google to Washington and asked them to52:37devise strategies for preventing the52:39sowing of discord you know so they52:41basically what’s asking them to come up52:44with strategies for filtering out fake52:47news and then also certain kinds of52:49offensive content but you know that is a52:53stepping stone to what we’ve we’ve seen52:55in other countries I think you know and52:57I think it’s really worrisome but but52:59nobody seems to care on our side of the53:01aisle which is which is very strange53:02myself it’s53:04miles well it’s a it’s a censorship53:06issue you know and it’s it’s a53:09short-sighted thing as you said before53:10it’s people and it’s not even there’s53:14people that do pretty egregious things53:16from the left like the Covington school53:18thing when people were saying we got to53:21Doc’s these kids and give me their names53:23release their names these people are53:25still on Twitter to this day right53:27talking about kids that just happen to53:28have these make America great again hats53:30and I have a friend who used to live in53:32that area said like no you don’t get it53:33like there’s these stands these kids are53:36on the high school like field trip53:38there’s these stands we could buy these53:39hats everywhere these kids bought the53:41hats they’re they think they’re being53:43funny these guys play the music and then53:45get in their face you take a photo of it53:47it looks like this guy’s standing in53:49this Native American guy’s face but then53:51you see the whole video it’s no no the53:53Native American guy was playing his drum53:54walking towards him and then everybody53:58sorts probably it’s outrage cycle it’s54:03just so exhausting in a signaling54:05everyone’s signaling how virtuous they54:07are everyone’s signaling they’re on the54:09right side everyone’s signaling you know54:11I want names take these guys down like54:14you’re talking about sixteen year old54:15kids right it’s so fucking crazy and all54:18what is he Vic he’s guilty of smiling54:20was that what he guilt he’s guilty of54:22yeah no he’s got a mag a hat on I mean54:24yeah it’s crazy and the signaling thing54:27is crazy and you know for me the in the54:30in the news business a lot of people54:32that I know went into the when at the54:35journalism precisely because we didn’t54:37want to talk about our political views54:39like the whole point of the job is like54:41you know we’re just gonna tell you what54:43the facts are like not gonna tell you54:44about what I’m all about you can’t do54:46that anymore everything’s editorialize54:48everything is about editorializing and54:51signaling this is like what you’re54:52saying you’re telling people what your54:55stance is on things and that’s that’s54:58the opposite of what the job used to be54:59and this is again one of the things I’ve55:01been trying to focus on is that you know55:04what’s exactly what you’re talking about55:05people used to go to the news because55:07they wanted to find out what happened in55:08the world and they can’t do it anymore55:10because everything that you turn on55:11every kind of content is just55:14editorialized content where people are55:16sort of telling you55:17where they stand on things and you know55:19I don’t want to know that I wouldn’t55:20know what the information yes it’s so55:22hard how does this get resolved because55:24we’re dealing with essentially a two55:26decade old problem right I mean give or55:28take before that before the this the55:32social media and before the internet and55:34websites this justice wasn’t this wasn’t55:37what it was you could count on the New55:38York Times to give you an unbiased55:41version of what’s going on in the world55:43I don’t necessarily know that’s true55:45anymore no no other times has kind of55:47gone over to this model as well and55:49they’re super woke they’ve they’ve55:50struggled with it they they were that55:52there was an editorial and I wrote about55:54this in the in the book that the in the55:56summer of 2016 this guy Jim Ruttenberg55:59wrote the sort of this piece said Trump56:00is testing the norms of objectivity that56:02was the name of the piece and basically56:05what he said is Trump is so bad that we56:06have to look like rethink what56:08objectivity means we have to not only be56:11true but true to history’s judgment he56:14said and we have to have copious56:16coverage and a gret quote and aggressive56:18coverage so we’re gonna cover Trump a56:19lot we’re gonna cover him aggressively56:21and we’re gonna show you we’re gonna56:23take a stand on this issue rather than56:26just tell you what happened right so56:28rather than doing the traditional New56:29York Times thing of just the facts will56:32tell you sorted out right you figure out56:34we’re gonna tell you you know kind of56:36had it what your stance should be and56:39you know I think where does where do we56:41go from here how does it get resolved I56:43don’t know because you know unless the56:46the financial incentives change there56:49they’re not going to change you know the56:51business used to be back when you’re56:54talking about with New York Times and56:55then there were three networks and they56:57were all trying to get the whole56:58audience right so they were they were57:00they were doing that kind of neutral57:02fact-finding mission and it was working57:04for them financially now they can’t do57:06that because of the internet it’s it’s57:07you’re hunting for audience and little57:09groups yeah and they’re just giving you57:11hyper politicized stuff because that’s57:12the only way they can make money I don’t57:14know how we change it I don’t know how57:15we go you know we reverse it it’s it’s57:18it’s a problem it’s so interesting57:20though because I mean if you looked at57:24human interactions and if you looked at57:27you know dispensing news and information57:30and you follow trends from like the 30s57:33to the 40s to the 50s to the 60s to 70s57:37he’d be like oh well people are getting57:38better at this57:39people getting better whoa whoa what the57:42fuck is going on now everything is off57:45the rails yes two camps barking at each57:47other’s blatant misinformation on both57:50sides blatant distortions of the truth57:52blatant editorializing of facts and57:55you’re like hey what happened guys yeah57:57no it’s it’s it’s crazy and and not not58:00that the news didn’t have distortions58:03before like you think about you know we58:07covered up all sorts of thing you know58:09massacres in Cambodia a secret bombing58:11you know the use of Agent Orange like58:14it’s definitely I just didn’t appear in58:15the news in the degree it should now58:18though you turn on either MSNBC or Fox58:22and you’re right you’ll you’ll find58:25something that’s just totally full of58:26shit within five minutes usually and58:28that did not used to be the case you58:32know I think individual reporters used58:35to take a lot of pride in their work58:36you know and it’s different now now now58:39when you make mistakes in the business58:41you don’t you don’t get bounced out of58:43the business in the way you used to and58:45that’s that’s really strange like only58:47plagiarism plagiarism still bounces you58:50what plagiarism case is pretty yeah58:52that’s usually fatal right you’re not58:54gonna usually recover from that I mean58:55some people have kind of near in58:57problems with that and they they you59:00know I’m not gonna yes but but um but no59:04but you think about people who got59:05stories like w the WMD thing wrong right59:08not only do they not get bounced out of59:10the business they all got promoted you59:12know they’re like the editors of major59:13magazines now or you know and and so59:16what does that tell people in the59:18business well it tells you you know if59:20you screw up as long as you screw up59:21with a whole bunch of other people it’s59:22okay you know which is not good and and59:25we used to have a lot of pride about59:26that stuff in this business and that we59:28now we don’t anymore59:29you know and it it’s there isn’t the59:33shame connected with with screwing59:34something up that there used to be I59:36think there’s a real danger with in59:38terms of social media especially in not59:42complying to the Constitution59:44not complying to the First Amendment I59:46think there’s a real danger in that and59:47I don’t think we recognize that danger59:49because I don’t think we saw what social59:51media was until it was too late and then59:53by the time it was too late we had59:55already had these sort of standards in59:58place and the people that run it we’re60:01already getting away with enforcing60:03their own personal bias their60:04ideological bias and this is this is60:08that when you’re at this position where60:10you go well how does that ever get60:11resolved they’re not going to resolve it60:13on their own they’re still making ass60:14loads of money what he did is the60:16government resolved it well if Trump60:18steps in and resolves it looks like he’s60:19trying to resolve it to save his own60:21political career or right to into you60:23know to help his supporters it’s like60:26yeah no and and and no matter what if60:29Trump does anything about it60:30automatically everyone’s gonna be60:32against it right right you know even60:33even if it’s um even if there’s some60:36sense in there somewhere people won’t60:37won’t won’t get behind it but you know I60:40do anything about it it’s gonna be a60:41correction time there’s gonna be a gap60:44time where it’s gonna be like that where60:46it’s just gonna flood with people that60:48are just like with this newfound freedom60:51they’re just gonna go and shit up the60:53town you know but I mean but how would60:55you how would you fix it now like that’s60:58something because it’s not only about60:59rules it’s also about culture like61:01people have already they’re in this61:02pattern of you know not saying the wrong61:06thing right and they don’t61:08I think there’s we’re in a culture that61:10doesn’t even really know how to deal61:13with free speech if we actually had it61:15in the same way we used to you know no61:16one seems to have a forecast like no61:19one’s like well the storm is gonna last61:20about four years and then say there’s no61:22there’s no forecast no no one’s like wow61:25some fucking uncharted waters right61:28right but if you historically the61:31tendency is once you have a tool that61:34kind of can be used to keep people on61:38line and for enforce compliance of ideas61:41and then it always ends up worsening and61:44becoming more and more dictatorial and61:46authoritarian yes again you go back to61:48the Soviet example like once I started61:50you know really exercising a lot of61:52control over the press and literature61:54and things like that it didn’t get61:56better you61:57it just continued becoming more of a you62:00know an entrenched thing until so I62:02that’s what I worry about I think they62:04were headed more in that direction yeah62:06I think so too62:07I’m not really concerned with on both62:10sides when people dig their heels in62:12ideologically the other side just gets62:14even more convinced they’re correct oh62:15yeah yeah and there’s no cross dialogue62:20of any kind not anymore62:23there and even now I mean it’s it’s62:26interesting you had you had Bernie62:29Sanders on your show and Sanders all62:31it’s Sanders is one of the few62:33politicians left who has this idea that62:36we should talk to everybody like there’s62:38there are no illegitimate audiences out62:39there there know and like you know62:41that’s my job as a politician is to try62:43to convince you of things but that’s not62:45normal in the Democratic Party anymore I62:47mean Elizabeth Warren you know has made62:51a big thing about not going on Fox and62:53about having certain people taken taken62:55off Twitter and yeah and and I think62:58that’s increasingly the the sort of line63:02of thought in mainstream Democratic63:04Party thought now is is that we’re just63:06gonna rule out whatever whatever that is63:0947% of the electorate we’re just not63:10gonna talk to them anymore63:11right right yeah I I don’t know how63:14that’s that can possibly be a successful63:16political strategy then what and what63:18the point is you know I yeah no no it63:21doesn’t make any sense I was reading63:24something where people are going after63:25tells he gathered for being on Tucker63:27Carlson she’s like I’ll talk to63:29everybody and I’m glad she does and by63:32the way it’s like it’s hard for her63:33because she’s kind of an outside63:34candidate it’s hard for her to get time63:36on these other networks and so they want63:39to punish her for being on Tucker63:40Carlson’s and then they have this you63:42know reductionist view of who he is he’s63:46a white supremacist like to all she63:48supports white supremacists she goes on63:49a white supremacist show it okay is that63:51what he is really what he is and using63:54its knee a lot more than that there’s a63:56lot going on there right you guys are63:58fucking with life you know you’re64:00fucking with the reality of life and64:03you’re saying it in these sentences64:05you’re printing it out in these64:06paragraphs as64:08and you sending it out there64:09irresponsibly and it’s just really64:11strange that people don’t understand the64:13repercussions of that yeah that’s64:15something we talked about on our podcast64:16easily it’s all the time is that the64:18this it’s a catch-22 right like you you64:22don’t invite somebody like tulsi gabbard64:24on to CNN MSNBC where you they’re kind64:28of excluded from the same platform the64:29other politicians get so they go to64:31other platforms64:32all right and then you say oh you went64:34on that platform so you’re illegitimate64:35yes you know what do you want them to do64:37like you know what they do the same64:39thing with people who go on RT for64:40instance right oh well you’re helping64:42the Russians because you went on RT well64:44they’re that’s because you didn’t invite64:46them on any I mean yeah you their people64:48are gonna try to talk to anybody they64:49can to spread their ideas and that that64:52that kind of propaganda thing is is64:54pretty constant now in the use of the64:57term terms like what white supremacists64:59with Tucker Carlson I mean there there65:01are a million terms now that you use to65:03just kind of throw at people and what65:05they’re trying to do is create this ik65:06factor around people yeah right like65:09once you get someone gets a label65:11associated with them then nobody wants65:14to be associated with that person all65:16right Ryan they quickly kind of die out65:18of the public scene and that’s I think65:20that’s really bad too you know it’s it’s65:22like a it’s it’s just an65:25anti-intellectual way of dealing with65:26things and I and I think it’s it’s not65:29good it’s weird that it’s so prevalent65:31it’s weird that there’s so few65:32proponents of a more you know65:36open-minded way of thinking right yeah65:38and just to take the gap we had we had65:42Tulsa together on our show too and65:44immediately we got accused what do you65:46love Assad right do you want a bomb65:49Syrian sure you want to keep murder65:50Syrian children no I you know she’s a65:52presidential candidate and we want to65:54talk to want to hear what she has to say65:55but they immediately go to the65:58maximalist interpretation of everything66:00and then they’re what they’re basically66:02saying when they ask you those questions66:04are do you want to wear that label too66:06because she’s got it already66:08so if you have a run again you’re gonna66:10you’re you’re gonna have that label and66:11people they see that you know and and so66:14you know people who have who don’t have66:16a big following and who are worried66:19about their careers66:21in about you know the money and66:23advertisers and stuff like that they66:24they think twice about you know66:26interviewing that person the next time66:27yeah and here’s another way to get that66:29speech exactly and again I don’t know66:32how you get out of it you know and I66:36mean I’ve experienced some blowback I66:39guess but it doesn’t hasn’t worked yet66:42right you know I mean it’s not real it’s66:45just like it’s just words like okay well66:48but yeah and and but you’re handling it66:50the right way back I think people your66:53audience is rewarding you for for not66:56not bowing to it66:58you know and I think that more people if67:01they took that example and said I’m not67:02gonna listen to what the the pack says67:05about this I’m not gonna be afraid of67:06being called a name you know fuck that67:09I’m gonna talk to you I want to talk to67:11and I’m gonna gonna head you know67:13explore whatever ideas I want to explore67:15then the this kind of stuff wouldn’t be67:18as effective so yeah so easy to do to67:22people it’s so easy for them to deep67:23platform people yes always and shadow67:26banning and all this other weird shit67:27that’s going on yeah they’re channeling67:30people and and pushing people into these67:34areas of their platforms that makes them67:38less accessible and I know where it67:40comes from you know I was I was young67:42and politically active once you know you67:44you want to change the world you want to67:46make it a better place so you’re in67:48college and you don’t have any power you67:50don’t have any way to input make67:54something into legislation you know what67:56I mean yeah so what do you do you you67:59know social media gives you the illusion68:01that you’re having an impact in the68:03world by you know maybe getting somebody68:05deep platformed or taking off Twitter or68:07something like that it feels like it’s68:08political action that yeah but it’s not68:11you know what I mean it’s it’s it’s68:12something that they that is open to68:14people to do but it’s not the same as68:18you know getting 60 Congress 60 members68:21of the Senate to to raise taxes on a68:24corporation that’s been evading them for68:2620 years you know what I mean like68:27that’s that’s real action this you know68:31getting some random person taken off the68:33internet is just not change68:34you know but but people feel like it is68:36and they wanna they want to do the right68:38thing so I get it but no it’s it’s not68:41you know put real political action I68:43don’t think no it’s fucking gross yeah68:49and it just lead it’s there’s so much of68:52it on there’s so little logic also and68:56you this must be a personal thing for68:59you but it’s this is the unfunniest time69:01in American history69:03like yes no because you rewarded for for69:07stepping outside the box that’s true in69:09a big way mm-hmm like yeah you mean Dave69:12Chappelle gets attacked but guess what69:14he also gets rewarded in a huge way run69:17he goes on stage now people go ape shit69:20that’s true and part of the reason why69:22they go fucking bonkers is because they69:24know that this guy doesn’t give a fuck69:26and he’s one of the rare ones who69:28doesn’t give a fuck so when he goes up69:29there you know if he thinks something69:32crazy about whatever it is whatever69:34protected group or whatever idea that69:37he’s not supposed to explore that’s not69:39gonna stop him at all he’s gonna tell69:40you exactly what he thinks about those69:42things regardless of all this woke69:44blowback he’s not he doesn’t care right69:46so because of that he’s rewarded even69:48more and same thing with Bill burr69:50same thing with a lot of comics I69:51experienced it with my own jokes sure69:53did more controversial bits getting69:55people more fired up now they love it69:57because everyone’s smothered their70:00smothered by human resources and70:02smothered by office politics and you’re70:04smothered by social discourse70:07restrictions and he’s don’t feel like70:10you can express yourself any more this70:12is true and and and all people also70:13don’t have a they feel like they’re70:15being watched all the time yeah things70:17like that kind of can’t let it all hang70:19out anywhere right and and so that’s70:21yeah they they do feel incredibly like70:24repressed and under the gun yeah I think70:26that that’s that’s true yeah I just I70:29feel like it I mean I’m not a comic but70:31if but I just imagine it must be a more70:34challenging environment it’s more70:35challenging but more rewarding to my70:37friend ari said it best he said this is70:39a great time for comedy because comedies70:41dangerous again right that’s true yeah70:43that’s true yeah it’s kind of goes back70:44to like a Lenny Bruce era right70:46when you know you could kind of70:48completely freak people out with a70:50couple of saying a couple of sure yeah70:53for good or bad or prior yeah well you70:56like you saw it with like louis c.k70:58right louis ck’s under the microscope71:00now that joke that he made about71:02parkland is absolutely a louis c.k joke71:06if you followed him throughout his71:08career what was the joke again i’m sorry71:10the joke was why am i listening to these71:12parklands survivors why are you71:13interesting cuz you pushed some fat kid71:16in the way like see you’re laughing71:18right like that is a louis c.k joke he’s71:23saying something fucked up you’re not71:24supposed to say that is throughout his71:26goddamn career he’s done that that’s71:28always done but after the you know71:32jerking off in front of women all that71:33stuff and him coming out in admitting it71:35and then taking a bunch of time off now71:37he’s a target right now he does71:38something like that and they’re like oh71:40he’s all right now like no this is what71:42he’s always done right he’s always71:44taking this sort of contrarian outside71:47the box fucked up but hilarious take on71:51things and that bit71:52unfortunately because it was released by71:54someone who made a youtube video of it71:56he didn’t get a chance to he was gone71:58for ten months and he had only done a71:59couple sets when he was fleshing these72:01ideas out i guarantee you he would have72:03turned that idea into a brilliant bit72:04but he never got the chance because it72:06was just it was set out there in the72:08wild when it was a baby he was mauled72:10down by wolves it needed to be heard72:13right yeah i mean that’s what a bit of72:15these bits they they grow and they72:17develop and that was a controversial72:19idea that we’re supposed to think that72:21someone’s interesting just because they72:22survived a tragedy and his take is like72:24no no no no you’re not interesting right72:27you’re fucking boring you’re annoying72:28get off my get off my TV and a lot of us72:31have felt that way sure he just the way72:34he said it was easy to take and put in72:37you know out of context put it in quotes72:39and turn him into an asshole well yeah72:42but that’s what comedy is right it’s72:44it’s taking what people the the thoughts72:46that everybody has and vocalizing that72:49the end that forbidden thing in a way72:51that people can kind of you know come72:54together over right i mean i think that72:56was a lot a lot of what richard pryor72:57schemer was about like he took a lot of72:59the sort73:00comfortable race problems right and he73:05just kind of put them out there and both73:07white people and black people laughed at73:09it yeah right like together you know and73:11that that was what was good about it yes73:12but if you can’t if if people are afraid73:17to vocalize those things that they think73:18it’s gonna you know ruin their career is73:20you know that that makes it more73:22interesting right it’s more hype more73:24high stakes but if you can navigate73:25those waters and get to the promised73:28land of the punchline it’s even more73:29rewarding right but you just have to73:31explain yourself better you have to have73:33better points you have to have you have73:35to have a better structure to your73:38material where you while the the people73:41who may find your idea objectionable73:44they you you coax them like hold my hand73:48I’m gonna take you through the woods73:50we’re gonna be okay right follow me and73:53boom isn’t that funny73:55right right right you have to navigate73:56it skillfully and you have to navigate73:58it thoughtfully and you have to really74:01have a point you can’t have a half-assed74:03point but you can’t have a situation74:06where it’s fatal to be off by a little74:08bit I know like there was a writer that74:11I loved growing up a Soviet writer named74:13Isaac Babel Stalin ended up shooting him74:17but he gave a speech about I think it74:20was in 1936 you know to to a Soviet74:23writers collective and he said you know74:25people say that we don’t have as much74:27freedom as we used to but actually all74:29of all that the you know the the74:31Communist Party is done is Britta’s74:33prevented us from writing badly the only74:35thing that’s outlawed now is writing74:36badly right and everybody laughed but he74:39was actually saying something pretty74:41serious which is that you can’t write74:42well unless you can you know screw up74:44too you know like on the way to to being74:48creative in a good way you have to miss74:50yes you know and if missing is not74:52allowed and there’s high punishment for74:55missing you’re not going to get art yeah74:57you’re not gonna get revolution you’re74:59not gonna get all these things well and75:01in comedy it’s particularly important75:03because you have to work it out in front75:04of people absolutely yeah no I used to75:06sit at a comedy club in75:08hatton when I was like in college that75:11you know they would try out their75:13material like on a Wednesday right you75:16know early and that was always the most75:18interesting time for me well like75:19they’re trying south stuff out and a lot75:21of it wasn’t so good but you know it was75:23interesting right and you just can’t75:26have a situation where people feel like75:28you know one wrong word is gonna ruin75:30their career yeah you know yeah I don’t75:32know but there’s also people that are75:34wolves and they’re trying to take out75:36that little baby joke wandering through75:38the woods they they want that feeling of75:41being able to take someone down right75:44and that that’s you know that’s you’re75:45getting that now too which is just and75:47so now because that there’s like yonder75:49bags at the improv where I’m performing75:51tonight they usually on their bags you75:53have to put yourself on the bag when you75:54go in there so you can’t record things75:56yonder bag yes it’s a company called75:58yonder it’s just so strange it’s like76:01all the shows I did with Chappelle he76:03uses yonder bags and an idea is to76:06prevent people from from filming and76:08recording and you know and then76:10eventually putting your stuff out there76:11uh-huh76:12well you know look I’m kind of all for76:15that I mean I’ve seen this with76:17politicians on the campaign trail like76:19they are so tight now in ways that they76:21used to not be well you saw the Donald76:23Trump thing Donald Trump jr. where Trump76:26jr. what they didn’t want him to do they76:28wanted him to do a Q&A and he didn’t76:30want to do it so they booed him the76:32right wing people uh-huh bullying him76:34they’re yelling out Q&A Q&A because they76:37want to be able to talk oh I see it’ll76:39say something to him and these are76:40people that were like far-right76:42far-right people they just didn’t think76:45he was being right enough or he was76:46playing the game wrong or he wasn’t76:47wasn’t letting them complain to him76:49right right yeah yeah now that’s bad and76:52and and politicians are aware of that76:56now and they’re they’re constantly aware76:57that they’re on film everywhere and so77:00they’re you know a thousand percent less77:02interesting because yeah they’re there I77:04mean I remember covering campaign in77:072004 and I was I saw Dennis Kucinich77:10give a speech somewhere and he was going77:13from I think Maine to New Hampshire and77:16I said can I get a ride back to New77:17Hampshire he’s like yeah sure so you77:18know it takes me on the77:20and he like takes his shoes off he’s77:22like cracking jokes and everything and77:24like eating udon noodles or something77:26political candidates would not do that77:28now like they’d be afraid to be off the77:30record with you right you know right77:32right and and they’re afraid to be77:33around people and just behave like77:35people you know which is not good I77:38don’t think it’s the weirdest time ever77:41to be a politician because it’s it’s77:42basically you’ve got this one guy who77:45made it through being hugely flawed77:49mm-hmm and just going ah77:51the fucking locker room talk and it was77:53like well yeah it is locker room talk77:54yes and then it works and he gets77:56through and he wins and so you’ve got77:58him who seems like he’s so greasy like78:01nothing sticks to him and then you have78:04everyone else who’s terrified of any78:06slight misstep yeah totally and and you78:10can’t replicate the way Trump does this78:12you know Trump Trump is he was born this78:14way there’s like a thing going on in his78:16head like he is you know pathologically78:19driven to behave in a certain way and78:20he’s not gonna be cowed by the way you78:24know people are but socially because he78:26just doesn’t think that way78:27no no he’s and but that’s no one else is78:29gonna behave like that what do you think78:31about him and speed what do you think I78:34do all that78:34does he take speed you mean yeah so did78:37you ever see his speech after Super78:40Tuesday yeah that’s the one we was78:43slurry it was that wasn’t always ramped78:46up he was very I just say watch that78:50speech you know we’re not supposed to78:51draw conclusions about but you know what78:54what my big lament pharmaceutically with78:55somebody but I would say just watched on78:57Donald Trump’s performance after the78:59results of the Super Tuesday roll in in79:022016 let’s hear some of that firstly79:06chris Christie is hilarious she’s79:09talking about wages I’ve been poor and79:11everything’s poor and everything’s doing79:13badly but we’re gonna make it she’s been79:14there for so long I mean if she hasn’t79:17straighten it out by now she’s not gonna79:19straighten it out in the next four years79:21it’s just gonna become worse and worse79:22she wants to make America whole again79:24and I’m trying to find what is79:26yeah I mean it’s just I already go back79:30and look but yeah but he got he went on79:32and on also that the Christie factor was79:34really funny with that because he was79:35him he’s just sitting back there going79:37what am i doing what am i doing with my79:39life79:40look at his face literally you can see79:42his brain wander well how the fuck did79:44this happened I was gonna be the man79:46like I was the goddamn president it was79:50gonna happen for me I could see it79:52happening I saw him in uh in Ames Iowa79:56basically standing alone in the park79:58waiting for people to try to shake his80:00hand you know yeah it was pretty bad80:01like you see that and but you do you80:03have a theory about Trump and speed yeah80:05yeah yeah I think he’s on some stuff80:07mm-hmm I think first of all I know so80:09many journalists that are on speed I80:12know so many people that are on adderall80:13and it’s very effective it gives you80:16confidence it gives you a delusional80:18perspective80:19well you get a delusional state of80:21confidence mm-hmm it makes people think80:22they can do anything it’s basically a80:24low-level meth it’s very similar to80:27methamphetamine chemically sure and80:29people are in it yeah it is tell me what80:31it’s like because I haven’t done it yeah80:33I mean I’ve done speed to I mean you80:35know all those all those drugs are yeah80:37they’re like baby baby speed basically80:39yeah and you’re absolutely right I think80:42people who it’s not good for a writer80:44because writing is one of these things80:47where one of the most important things80:49is being able to step back and and ask80:52am I really my full of shit here is you80:54know are my jokes as funny as I think80:55they are like right if once that80:57mechanism starts to go wrong you know81:01you’re really lost yes81:02writer right because you’re just you’re81:03not in front of an audience you’re with81:05yourself in front of a computer so I81:08don’t think I don’t think speed is a81:10great drug I mean you get a lot of stuff81:12done so that’s that’s good but but ya81:16know I I think there’s a lot of people81:18who are on it now and also a lot of us81:20because kids come up through school and81:23they’re on it just you know and they81:25they get used to it so I you know I have81:27kids I wouldn’t dream of giving giving81:29them any of those drugs you know I think81:31it’s crazy yeah I do – did you see you81:33saw the I’m sure you saw the sudafed81:34picture – right no what was that Trump81:37was sitting in his office eating a81:39was that famous photo where he’s like I81:41love Hispanics where he’s eating a taco81:43bowl at Trump Tower and behind him81:46there’s an open drawer and in that open81:47drawer as boxes of sudafed and sudafed81:51sort of yeah I mean you it gives you a81:54low-level buzz and the I mean this is81:59why I used to have to go to CVS to buy82:02this stuff used to have to give you82:03drivers I guess you still do they have82:05to give your driver’s license because82:06they want to make sure you’re not82:07cooking meth right lying like 10 boxes82:09of it at a time and cooking up a batch82:11yeah if you’re like in a you know holler82:13in Kentucky and you go in and get 20 2082:16boxes of sudafed and pretty much people82:18know what you’re doing there82:19yeah that’s really funny did he so he82:21had a bunch of sudafed oh yes yeah in82:23his box and you know there was that one82:26reporter that was that guy’s name again82:29who had a hole he wrote a series of82:33tweets which he eventually wound up82:34taking down by the way Jamie I can’t82:35find those fucking tweets he wrote a82:39series of tweets that there was a very82:40specific Duane Reade pharmacy where82:42Trump got amphetamines for something82:46that was in quotes called metabolic82:48disorder Kurt I can Walled fun Kurt yeah82:511982 Trump started taking amphetamine82:53derivatives abused them only supposed to82:55take two for 25 days stayed on it for82:57eight years really now is he full of82:59shit83:00so yeah Kurt I can Walt isn’t83:03interesting because he’s written some83:05really good books about finance he wrote83:09a book about Enron he wrote a book about83:12Prudential it was really really good83:15then when I was starting out writing83:17with Wall Street I was like wow these83:18books are really incredibly well83:19researched but he had some stuff in the83:23in 2016 where like that’s an example of83:28something as a reporter I see that83:30Michael where’s that coming from83:31you know and because you in journalism83:35you can’t really accuse somebody of83:37certain things unless it’s backed up to83:39the enth degree so right he had a couple83:41of things that I thought I you know83:42would be concerned about83:43he took a leap I don’t know I mean look83:46that’s what I’m Sam stepped outside of83:47the journalistic boundaries of what you83:50can absolutely prove and not prove83:53and took a leap and that’s why I think83:54he took down the duane reade pharmacy he83:56didn’t take it down oh it’s still there83:58as well there wasn’t okay there it is84:00there was another thing about a well84:03he’s got the milligrams per day Wow84:05where’s this from I don’t know it84:08doesn’t show it or anything but I84:10believe he eats drug use a copy of it84:11from someone or talk to the doctor drug84:14was diethyl propane 75 milligrams a day84:16prescription filled Duane Reade on 57th84:19Street Manhattan not that I know things84:20so you know get the doctor’s name to dr.84:24Joseph greenberg I countered with84:27medical records a white house admitted84:30to me only a short time for diet that he84:32took it when he was not located and84:34that’s fun he says I countered with84:36medical records they cut me off Wow yeah84:40I mean you know one thing I will say is84:42that when you’re when you’re covering84:43stories sometimes you hear things and84:46and you know they’re pretty solid but84:48you put you it’s not quite reportable84:50because the person won’t put their name84:51on it84:52or you know you’re not a hundred percent84:55sure that the document is a real84:56document maybe it’s a photocopy and that84:59that can be very very tough for85:00reporters cuz they know something’s true85:02but they can’t write they can’t and and85:05social media has eliminated a barrier85:07that we used to have we used to have to85:09go through editors and fact checkers and85:11now you know you’re on Twitter or you85:13can just kind of you know right right or85:15you can hint at something you know and I85:18think that’s that’s something you don’t85:19want to get into as a reporter too much85:21you know yeah that’s a weird use of85:23social media right it’s like sort of a85:25slippery escape from journalistic rules85:29yeah exactly yeah you know or you can85:32you can insinuate that somebody did X Y85:35& Z or you can you can use terms that85:38are a little bit sloppy like you know85:41again but it seems like they did admit85:42that he took that stuff forth ah yes so85:44if you have the the white house85:46you know spokesperson saying that they85:47he took it for a short time for a diet85:49then you find that’s a reportable story85:50right yeah yeah well I think when people85:53get into that shit it’s very hard for85:55them to get out of that shit mm-hmm85:57that’s a the the speed train and I’ve85:59seen many people hop on it it’s got a86:01lot of stops nobody seems to get off86:04yeah not with86:06keep intact right yeah no it’s uh that’s86:08that’s not a good old he’s so old he86:12doesn’t exercise he eats fast food and86:14he gets so much fucking energy I and I86:16mean people want to think he’s this86:17super person you know but maybe he’s on86:20speed maybe yeah I mean he’s just gonna86:23collapse turn over and collapse one not86:25can go a lot longer on speed than people86:28think maybe if you just do it the right86:30way but isn’t that kind of the way86:31history always works it’s like again not86:34to go back to the Russian thing but all86:36the various terrible leaders of Russia86:38like they all died of natural causes86:40when they were 85 right whereas you know86:42in a country where people get murdered86:43and die of industrial accidents and bad86:45health when they’re you know 30 all the86:47time right but the worst people in the86:49country make it to very old age and you86:52know and die and in their alcoholics and86:55maybe that’s the thing right maybe maybe86:56you know he has the worst diet in the87:00world and maybe he’s on speed and maybe87:02it’s also your perception of how you87:05interface with the world maybe because87:07he’s not this introspective guy that’s87:09really worried about how people see him87:10and feel about him maybe he doesn’t feel87:12you know whatever whether it’s87:14sociopathy or whatever it is he doesn’t87:16feel the bad feelings they don’t get in87:19there yeah and this he doesn’t have the87:21the stress impact right right and that’s87:23the thing about speed apparently it87:25because of the fact that it makes you87:27feel delusional and it makes you feel87:29like you’re the fucking man like don’t87:31worry about what other people think in87:32losers who cares right right yeah you87:37know that was why not by greenly why not87:39by greenland yeah that came out of87:41what’s wrong with that we bought Alaska87:43well we based it Alaska yeah yeah we87:45were supposed to give it back but we we87:47didn’t it seems like Greenland would be87:48a good place to scoop up especially as87:50things get warmer right yeah exactly and87:52the fuckin tweet that he made when he87:54put the Trump Tower I promise not to do87:56this and have a giant Trump Tower in the87:58middle of Greenland I was laughing my88:00ass off like love or hate that is88:03hilarious his trolling skills are88:05top-notch very good they’re they’re88:07fantastic oh he knows how to fuck with88:09people when he starts calling people