Albertans feel they don’t have a future in Canada: Former Encana CEO

Gwyn Morgan, former CEO of Encana, discusses the growing sense of Western alienation after the Liberals didn’t secure a single seat in Alberta or Saskatchewan. He says it isn’t about the industry anymore, it’s about the sense that they will never be treated equally with the other provinces.

Michael Ignatieff: Liberalism in Search of a New Self

Steve Paikin speaks with Michael Ignatieff, rector and president of the Central European University and former leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, about his university’s ongoing battle with the Hungarian state, populist unrest in Europe, and his impressions of Canada’s recent election.

00:00
almost a decade ago Michael Ignatieff
00:02
fought a tough election as leader of the
00:04
Liberal Party of Canada although he
00:06
didn’t win the day then it turns out it
00:08
may have been a meaningful precursor to
00:10
the fight he’s been facing of late
00:12
having returned to academic life as the
00:14
rector and president of the Central
00:16
European University in Budapest he’s
00:19
been making the case for small L liberal
00:21
values in the university’s ongoing
00:23
battle with the Hungarian government so
00:25
joining us now to reflect on that and
00:28
the wider context of populist unrest in
00:30
Europe here’s the former MP for
00:32
Etobicoke lakeshore there’s Michael
00:34
Ignatieff welcome back nice to be here
00:36
and whenever I say welcome back to you I
00:37
always have to start by reminding
00:39
everybody you used to do a show here at
00:40
TV in this studio I don’t know how many
00:43
years ago but it was a lot absolutely I
00:45
can’t believe I’m still standing well
00:48
you’re sitting at the moment but anyway
00:49
the last time we spoke your University
00:53
was in Budapest Hungary yes where is it
00:55
now well we’re never gonna leave
00:58
Budapest we we stood up for academic
01:01
freedom and we defied this regime so
01:04
we’ll always maintain a presence in
01:06
Budapest but they’ve rendered it illegal
01:08
for us to offer our us masters and
01:11
doctorates in Budapest so we’re doing
01:13
them in Vienna so we have we’ve
01:15
recreated the austro-hungarian Empire we
01:17
have a campus in Budapest and a new
01:20
campus in Vienna but it’s a kind of
01:22
scandal Steve that in the 21st century a
01:25
member of the European Union an ally of
01:28
Canada a member of NATO could get away
01:31
with throwing a university out of its
01:33
country because it doesn’t like the
01:34
politics and it doesn’t like we’re
01:36
frankly a liberal institution in the
01:38
small-l sense of it that we believe in
01:41
academic freedom liberal democracy and
01:43
those values and that’s the beef he has
01:46
with us and so he’s pushed us to move
01:49
next door he is Viktor Orban the prime
01:51
minister he is Viktor Orban I never met
01:53
him no I’ve never had the I’ve never had
01:56
the pleasure and then that’s significant
01:59
in a normal country the university
02:02
president might talk to a prime minister
02:04
from time to time we’ve sought
02:05
continuously to have some contact with
02:08
him but it’s just not possible he
02:10
determined that he could win an election
02:12
in 2018
02:13
by making George Soros who founded our
02:16
University his chief number-one enemy so
02:20
if George Soros was the number-one M
02:22
enemy then the University he founded our
02:25
university would be you know the number
02:27
one enemy and that’s what it’s about
02:28
it’s a political battle in which an
02:31
illiberal single-party state has lined
02:36
up against academic freedom and
02:38
institutional autonomy and so we’ve had
02:40
to fight back and and it’s been a it’s
02:44
been kind of brutal battle the the the
02:49
official media never stops coming after
02:51
us it’s a very unfamiliar position for a
02:54
university to be in because most of the
02:56
time people don’t even notice
02:57
universities are there and suddenly
02:59
you’re constantly under attack but we
03:02
fought back and I feel proud of the team
03:05
that has fought with me because we’re
03:08
fighting for something important there’s
03:10
a connection between democracy and free
03:14
institutions we forget how important to
03:17
democracy is the idea of free
03:19
self-governing institutions like
03:21
universities and when you attack a
03:24
university you are eventually attacking
03:27
democratic freedom he calls it George
03:29
Soros University why did you do that do
03:31
you think well because he wants to brand
03:33
us with kind of an association with you
03:37
know let’s remember who George Soros is
03:39
he’s a Hungarian Holocaust survivor made
03:43
a huge amount of money on the
03:45
international markets has now given away
03:47
billions to promote difficult unpopular
03:51
causes like human rights and founded
03:55
this university why to help the
03:58
countries of Eastern Europe move from
04:00
communism to democracy but there must be
04:03
there must be something about evoking
04:06
the Soros name in Hungary that he feels
04:08
resonates with his base what do you
04:10
think that is well then we get into
04:12
complicated territory
04:13
George is Jewish some of the rhetoric
04:17
not some of it a lot of the rhetoric has
04:20
been anti-semitic while denying that
04:23
it’s anti-semitic so there’s a lot of
04:25
stuff about the
04:26
Paulette rootless speculator who ruins
04:29
the lives of ordinary people has no
04:32
national attachments no national roots
04:36
no national commitments where have we
04:38
heard that language before and they
04:40
surface that language and it calls up
04:43
the devil from the deep as it were and
04:45
then when you say but this is
04:47
anti-semitic language they say how dare
04:49
you right so it’s the anti-semitism of
04:52
the 21st century and it’s very alarming
04:54
to be to see it happen you think you
05:00
know let’s remember in 1944 500,000
05:03
Hungarian citizens were exterminated in
05:05
the space about 8 weeks so you really
05:08
don’t want to go back to this this is
05:10
just poison all the way down and when
05:12
they play with it I feel I feel that
05:14
they’re there they’re there they’re
05:16
playing with fire and it gets me steamed
05:19
up to see it happen when we thought you
05:22
know never again to the best of my
05:24
knowledge
05:24
orbán studied liberal arts in Great
05:28
Britain during his younger days what do
05:30
you think’s happened to him well his
05:33
story is a parable of what’s happened to
05:36
the transition from communism to
05:38
democracy in in Europe he did have a
05:41
scholarship paid for by George Soros he
05:44
went to Oxford he was a heroic figure in
05:47
1989 because he was the first young
05:50
student leader to call for the retreat
05:52
or removal of Soviet troops in Hungary
05:55
then I think he understood I think he
05:59
felt dissed by the Budapest liberals
06:01
he’s a country very smart able country
06:04
boy he felt I’m a rural guy these urban
06:07
sophisticates you know and and then I
06:09
think he saw just how conservative the
06:13
base of Hungarian society is just how
06:17
fearful they were of being integrated
06:20
into a global capitalist economy just
06:24
how fearful they were about the future
06:25
of their language their national
06:27
identity there’s some of their religious
06:29
identity and now that’s bad too you know
06:32
to want to preserve that but he went
06:34
right into that grab that nationalist
06:37
conservative
06:39
strand in Central and Eastern Europe but
06:41
it’s a strand in every society and he’s
06:44
built a political career on it very
06:46
effectively I mean this this is a master
06:48
politician I he Hungary’s a small
06:51
country but the whole world talks about
06:53
him because he’s tried to do something
06:54
that you know he’s a model for a lot of
06:58
people air21 in Turkey mr. Netanyahu in
07:01
Israel
07:02
mr. Kachinsky in Poland and even mr.
07:05
Putin they respect mr. Orban because
07:09
he’s creating a new form of single-party
07:11
rule for the 21st century and it’s it’s
07:14
is justified by democracy I mean mr.
07:17
Rubin wins elections and then he uses
07:19
elections against democracy by eroding
07:22
civil liberties by eroding the
07:24
independence of the courts by you know
07:26
and then coming after the universities
07:28
so he set a new path in the liberal path
07:31
which is pretty significant pretty
07:33
important that’s why I think Canadians
07:35
and Ontarians listening to this ought to
07:37
pay attention to what’s happening in in
07:39
in in Hungary I’m not saying it’s coming
07:43
to a neighborhood near you but I’m
07:44
saying it is concerning to see a great
07:49
democratic society go towards a
07:51
single-party state in this way it should
07:53
concern us all I want to share with you
07:56
and our viewers and listeners on
07:58
podcasts two sets of numbers here which
08:01
compare popular opinions in Hungary and
08:03
in Poland and then I’ll get your take on
08:05
this so according to Pew Research this
08:08
is what Hungarians say are the very
08:10
important liberal democratic values for
08:12
their country
08:13
apparently 95 percent support a fair
08:16
judiciary eighty-five percent support
08:18
gender equality eighty seven percent
08:20
support free speech 76 percent support
08:23
of free media eighty seven percent
08:25
support regular elections 68 percent
08:28
support free opposition party so some
08:30
pretty high numbers and here it is in
08:32
Poland and these numbers are all lower
08:34
only 72 percent supporting a fair
08:36
judiciary only 69 percent supporting
08:38
gender equality 61 percent supporting
08:41
free speech 64 percent supporting a free
08:44
media 63 percent supporting regular
08:46
elections less than half the people
08:48
supporting free opposition parties the
08:51
agendas got some great numbers there
08:53
it gives me a lot to think about and I
08:54
don’t have an instant answer for the
08:56
comparison between Hungary and Poland
08:59
but I think it shows something hopeful
09:02
in my view which is that people vote for
09:05
Orban because they don’t have actually a
09:08
better alternative it’s important to
09:10
remember that the opposition which you
09:13
know picks up those numbers has never
09:16
been able to consolidate around a single
09:19
candidate that people can support so
09:21
Orban has benefited massively from a
09:23
divided opposition but those numbers are
09:26
telling you that Hungarians want to be
09:29
consistent with European values and
09:32
human rights standards and if those
09:34
numbers tell you that if a candidate got
09:37
together and said folks I want to make
09:40
those those numbers mean something I
09:43
want free courts I want free media I
09:45
want real political pluralism I think
09:47
those numbers are telling it that
09:49
opposition figure could win an election
09:51
now when when that will happen I don’t
09:53
know but it indicates a an important
09:56
thing about liberalism is that it is a
10:00
mistake to think that Orban reflects the
10:04
country orbán shapes the country from
10:07
the top-down but this is a country that
10:10
wants to be a modern Western European
10:13
democratic society what it doesn’t have
10:16
is an opposition that can express that
10:18
but here’s the the proof of what I’m
10:21
saying is that about a month ago the
10:24
city of Budapest elected an opposition
10:28
mayor a moderate pragmatic liberal green
10:32
candidate who swept the board swept out
10:35
the fit as the the government mayor and
10:39
that’s a sign of what those numbers are
10:41
saying to you
10:42
they won’t change so I I don’t feel
10:45
Orban as the end of the story and I
10:47
don’t think a liberal ISM is going to
10:50
triumph over liberal democracy I think
10:54
those numbers are telling us an
10:55
important story not just in Hungary but
10:58
also in Poland though I can’t explain
11:00
the difference between the two numbers
11:01
let me now read an excerpt for you this
11:04
is by Yvonne Kruschev and Stephen Holmes
11:07
an excerpt from their new book and here
11:08
we go Central European elites saw
11:11
imitation of the West as a well-traveled
11:13
pathway to normality encouraged by hopes
11:16
of joining the EU the reformers
11:18
underestimated the local impediments to
11:20
liberalisation and democratization and
11:22
overestimated the feasibility of
11:24
importing fully worked-out Western
11:26
models the wave of anti liberalism
11:28
sweeping over Central Europe today
11:30
reflects widespread popular resentment
11:33
at the perceived slights to national and
11:35
personal dignity that this palpably
11:38
sincere reformed by imitation project
11:40
entailed what’s your view on the
11:42
suggestion that well I think the
11:44
suggestion is that Eastern European
11:46
countries are really not quite ready to
11:47
recreate Western cultures in their midst
11:50
well that’s a very good book by Yvonne
11:53
Kraus 7 Stephen Holmes these are people
11:55
I know and respect and they really know
11:57
the ground they’re making a key point I
11:59
think which I think Canadians would
12:01
resonate with which is that nobody likes
12:03
to be told the only way you can go is to
12:06
copy someone else Canadians don’t want
12:09
to copy Americans we like living beside
12:11
them but there are a lot of things we do
12:12
not want to copy Eastern Europeans do
12:15
not want to copy you know Germany and
12:18
France they don’t want to be Germans
12:20
they want to be Hungarians Czechs and
12:22
poles that’s what that story is telling
12:24
you emulation copying being told that’s
12:28
the only objective you can have creates
12:31
resentment because people wanted to fin
12:33
they want to defend what they have they
12:35
want to defend being Hungarians urban
12:37
has been a genius at capturing that
12:40
resentful feeling that they don’t want
12:42
to just become Germans or French people
12:45
they want to stay on Geary and and so
12:47
you know nationalism patriotic pride is
12:51
just the building block of all politics
12:54
everywhere and liberals forget that at
12:56
their peril and if you have a if you
12:58
have a political story that says we want
13:01
to be transnational we want to be
13:03
cosmopolitan we want to have you know a
13:04
borderless world at a certain point
13:07
there’s gonna be a push back and we see
13:09
the push back in Europe but we all would
13:11
see we would also see it in Canada
13:13
Canadians want be Canadians we’ve had a
13:16
hundred and fifty plus year experiment
13:18
in being
13:19
different doing our own saying and I I
13:21
just think that’s bedrock to all
13:24
politics everywhere whether you’re a
13:25
conservative whether you’re a liberal
13:27
whether you’re a new Democrat who ever
13:29
you’re if you don’t have a story about
13:30
why you love your country and want to
13:32
defend it and keep it distinctive in
13:34
itself you’re not going to win an
13:36
election
13:36
have we been too arrogant in the West
13:38
suggesting you got to be more like us if
13:40
you want to be ready for primetime I
13:42
think I think the straight answer is yes
13:45
sometimes arrogant it’s been appropriate
13:48
for us because I teach human rights for
13:50
us to say look every democracy is going
13:53
to be different but we think democracy
13:54
is a better system than a totalitarian
13:58
or authoritarian one we should have said
14:02
a little more you know there are
14:03
different strokes for different folks
14:04
democracy doesn’t come in one color
14:07
one-size-fits-all Canadian democracy is
14:10
completely different from American
14:12
democracy to the south
14:14
Hungarian democracy will will have its
14:17
own national characteristics where we
14:19
were right to say is look there’s some
14:21
things you should never do to anybody
14:22
and that’s what we’re saying with human
14:24
rights you know don’t torture don’t
14:26
imprison without trial don’t you know
14:28
treat people with the basic elements of
14:30
justice there are some universals but i
14:32
think it was right for us to say we
14:34
stood for but i think we paid much too
14:37
little respect to the national histories
14:40
the specificities of countries their
14:42
pride their desired not to emulate other
14:45
people but to be themselves i think i
14:47
think that’s the story we did get wrong
14:49
in the nineties blood and belongings
14:51
still matters oh yeah if I can steal a
14:52
chat app so tightly from a book
14:54
absolutely I mean that that was I think
14:58
that’s the thing I learned actually from
15:00
Quebec nationalism weirdly I mean I we
15:03
we had this dingdong battle about the
15:06
future of our country in the 80s and the
15:07
90s when I was a student growing up and
15:09
it taught me to respect nationalism it
15:12
taught me to respect the stubbornness of
15:14
it and I think the trick Canada’s tried
15:16
to manage is we can share the same house
15:19
you know and easy let me sort of lay out
15:23
this sort of well-worn political path
15:24
and have you tell us what we’re supposed
15:26
to make of it
15:26
progressives want progress for a
15:29
significant number of people progress
15:31
represents
15:32
a threat to their sense of what is
15:34
normal clashes ensue populist s– gain
15:38
attention they win elections what do you
15:41
do with that kind of conundrum yeah I’ve
15:46
lived this you know you go to towns in
15:49
southwestern Ontario where the steel
15:51
mill is just closed or where you know
15:53
they’ve relocated something across the
15:55
border or they ship the jobs out
15:56
altogether
15:57
and that’s progress in the sense that
15:59
it’s capitalist progress it helps the
16:02
stock price and it’s a killer for the
16:04
for the working people and a lot of
16:07
those folks didn’t finish high school
16:09
and they’re in their 50s and you think
16:11
I’ve never felt so bad being in public
16:14
offices I was facing those folks because
16:16
I’d you did the blah blah blah but you
16:18
know it was kind of empty and they were
16:19
too smart not to know it was a bit empty
16:21
you know job retraining and got to have
16:24
hope you got to have faith and you know
16:26
they just looked crumpled bye-bye bye
16:28
Automation job relocation progress and
and I think liberalism liberal
gradualism of the kind I passionately
believe in often meets its limit at that
moment when when progress and change
really hurts livelihood another place
where I think progress is running up
against a real limit is the green agenda

because I think you know progress
absolutely requires us getting our co2
down and it’s a national project that
we’ve got to get right but it’s it’s
dividing the country west-east it’s
dividing smokestack people working in
smokestack industries and fuel intensive
industries from those in the tomorrow
industries and we just haven’t we we’ve
got the wrong idea about green politics
which is we’re all supposed to agree
this is the great civilizational
challenge and it’s kind of above
politics

green politics is politics all the way
down because it’s so divisive
and I
think liberalism has been slow to
adopted green agenda and it’s been slow
17:37
to understand then how do we get these
17:39
share conflicts adjudicated I mean the
17:42
West wants that pipeline built to
17:44
Tidewater Eastern Canada
17:46
says hell no i we that’s the only way we
17:48
can make our targets if we keep the
17:50
stuff in the ground Alberta is
17:52
absolutely incandescent with anger at
17:55
the threat and and the fatal mistake
17:58
would be to turn this into a kind of
18:00
tribal religious conflict to say you
18:03
know oh the Albertans don’t care about a
18:05
green agenda you know to divide us that
18:09
way a liberal politics that says look
18:11
we’ve got a common objective which is to
18:13
save the planet how do we make these
18:15
tough choices together you talk you talk
18:18
you talk everybody puts water in their
18:20
wine and we you know this is a real test
18:23
for what I love which is liberal
18:24
gradualism you know step by step patient
18:27
adjudication of interest which is how
this country holds together but boy the
green stuff is really the biggest
challenge we’ve got in Canada in the
21st century I really mean it the green
agenda is the most divisive issue in
Canadian politics and it will be for a
long time
also because the aboriginal
factor if your side doesn’t figure out
its side of the argument and there are
18:49
more people like XI and Trump and Boris
18:52
Johnson and air Dhawan and Modi and and
18:54
then you mentioned those Eastern
18:56
Europeans Kachinsky and/or bun then they
18:58
come along they’re gonna win so your
19:03
side of the arguments kind of got its
19:04
get its act together pretty soon don’t
19:06
you think well I think we need to be we
19:10
need to be go on the offensive we need
19:14
to say and it’s an unpopular thought
19:16
because it sounds kind of complacent but
I don’t think it is that liberal
gradualism is the only thing that’s
going to get the green agenda done
if
you think about how far we’ve come since
1970 when I was a student there was
19:32
barely any ecological or environmental
19:34
consciousness at all there was very
19:37
little understanding of what the climate
19:38
science was meaning in 50 years there’s
19:41
been an absolute change every single
19:44
thinking person in the world now we’ve
19:47
got to make the choices but the the
19:49
increase in our consciousness has been
19:51
enormous the public policy is getting
19:55
sharper and sharper here’s an here’s a
19:58
significant fact
19:59
if you look at the places in the world
20:02
where emissions co2 emissions have
20:06
platformed out that is we’re still
20:09
putting too much out there but there is
20:11
no growth in co2 emissions they are all
20:13
in liberal democratic societies which
20:17
tells you that a liberal democratic
20:20
society is actually very it’s built for
20:22
adjudicating share conflict it’s built
20:25
for getting people to recycle it’s built
20:28
for getting a price on carbon it’s get
20:31
it’s built for getting the cost
20:33
renewables down and those societies
20:36
democratic societies are doing actually
20:38
a better job of that than authoritarian
20:41
China than authoritarian Russia and we
20:44
need to hold on to confidence that it’s
20:46
actually through democracy that we get
20:49
an adjudication of these political
20:51
conflicts over green issues its renewed
20:55
my faith in democracy not made me more
20:57
pessimistic about democracy we either do
21:01
the green agenda democratically we’re
21:03
not going to do it at all I can’t have
21:05
the former leader of the federal Liberal
21:07
Party in that chair and as I hinted at
21:09
earlier and not ask him questions about
21:11
Canadian politics you knew this was
21:13
coming how carefully did you follow the
21:15
last just-completed federal election in
21:17
this country well I get it on my news
21:20
feed every morning and my wife and I sit
21:23
in bed and feel basic relief that we’re
21:26
not in the bear pit are still did you
21:29
take any particular lessons away from
21:31
the results of that election well I
21:35
think a minority government it was a
21:38
kind of a bit of a slap in the face to
21:41
my party in a way and I think there’s a
21:43
kind of sense of relief that it wasn’t
21:45
worse that the minority is quite strong
21:47
mr. the Prime Minister campaigned hard
21:49
he’s an unbelievable campaigner and I
21:51
think they kind of pulled it out but I
21:53
think it’s been sobering and I think
21:55
that’s probably good for a Liberal Party
21:57
I think it will force much more cross
21:59
party collaboration I think that’s good
22:02
I think you can see a minority
22:04
government lasting for a while how
22:06
long’s a while well they usually last 18
22:09
to 24 months I could see this going
22:11
three possibly four
22:13
or actually but look year’s possibly
22:16
possibly just because I think that the
22:18
stars are aligning and a certain way to
22:20
favor stability and I think as I said
22:23
before the green issues are the really
22:26
tough ones there are national unity
22:27
issues in our country and handling them
22:30
wisely will be the test of the next the
22:33
next mandate but I think the stars are
22:35
aligning to make this make this better
22:39
we’ve had a very strong resurgence of
22:42
Quebec nationalism we’ve had a very
22:44
strong resurgence of Western alienation
22:46
I think it’s important just to remember
22:48
we have been here before this is the
22:50
this is the ground condition of Canadian
22:52
politics since forever
22:54
I don’t see it as being fundamentally
22:56
new the thing I do see is new is that
22:58
the share conflicts are now
23:00
fundamentally about the green agenda in
23:02
a way that they weren’t in the 70s or
23:04
80s so they weren’t in the nationalist
23:06
period before now the green agenda is
23:10
the is the thing where we’ve got to get
23:12
our public policy right but I you know I
23:15
I think that I hope the the election was
23:20
a lesson in humility sobriety you say
23:25
you hope because that is certainly one
23:26
of the questions that’s percolate in
23:28
Canadian politics right now is you know
23:30
did the Prime Minister and did his party
23:32
understand that they were that they
23:34
ought to be somewhat chastened right now
23:36
and the jury is out on whether they are
23:37
yeah I think they should be I I am not
23:42
in a position to give anybody any
23:44
political advice since you will recall
23:46
how just how well I did and in that last
23:49
election so I’m not I I don’t actually
23:51
have the credibility to give anybody
23:53
least of all my successor advice but I I
23:56
would hope that it’s chastening and
23:58
sobering the public sent this government
24:01
a message and I think they will because
24:04
they’re all very politically smart the
24:06
Prime Minister whatever is a very shrewd
24:08
political you know master of his game he
24:12
will read the tea leaves I have no doubt
24:15
about it it’s one of the takeaways from
24:17
this election that some politicians
24:20
amazingly have incredible layers of
24:22
teflon and others don’t
24:25
yes I think that’s true
24:26
I think that I think there’s no question
24:28
and that’s a huge political asset but
24:32
again don’t don’t abuse it don’t misuse
24:34
it be careful that that’s that’s that’s
24:37
pure treasure it’s pure lightning in a
24:39
bottle
24:39
don’t don’t don’t overdo it as a guy you
24:42
can lose it sure and as a guy who’s been
24:44
through all that do you find a sort of
24:46
fundamental injustice in in who gets the
24:48
Teflon and who doesn’t no no no no this
24:52
is about this is about deep stuff in our
24:56
in our in our country you have a Prime
25:00
Minister speaks both official languages
25:02
perfectly who is credible and both of
25:05
our fundamental national communities a
25:08
man who has a name that is deeply
25:13
resonant in Canadian politics I’m not
25:15
you know and he’s a good-looking guy I
25:17
mean he and he put it all together I
25:20
mean you know you know I I feel you know
25:24
the key question is whether he will use
25:28
these gifts wisely
25:30
in the next mandate and that’s it that
25:33
will be a test of his leadership it’ll
25:35
be a test of his toughness it’ll be a
25:36
tough test of his decisiveness it’ll be
25:39
a test of whether he’s willing to get
25:41
down and really master the difficult
25:46
questions of national unity this this
25:48
the the job of a prime minister is keep
25:52
a country together that’s that’s what
25:55
you do and he will have to keep the
25:58
country together and that means
25:59
Aboriginal Canada means Western Canada
26:01
means go back it means all our regions
26:03
it’s one of the most difficult political
26:05
jobs in the world and as a bystander I
26:09
can only wish him the very best of luck
26:11
because you know the country’s future
26:13
depend on depends on his wisdom his
26:16
sobriety his humility and his discipline
26:18
I want to just finish up by I always
26:23
like to have a little fun with you when
26:24
you come in here because you do have
26:26
history with this place and I want to
26:28
remind everybody that it was almost
26:30
exactly 25 years ago that you and I sat
26:33
in this very studio and talked about a
26:35
book that you had just written called
26:37
blood and deal belonging about the
26:39
spasms of national is
26:40
in the world as much as I fear doing
26:43
this you want to see what we look like
26:44
25 years ago when we had that
26:46
conversation really Steve I really dread
26:49
this boy you’re gonna see a lot of miles
26:51
on the clock okay Sheldon let’s let’s
26:56
introduce the horror show to come roll
26:58
it please what we have to find is a form
27:02
of state government or state order that
27:06
allows ethnic groups to have
27:08
self-determination in the states that
27:10
matter this is why the Canadian story is
27:12
so important so crucial if we can show
27:15
that you can have two nations and I
27:18
regard the québécois as a nation if we
27:20
can have two nations sharing a single
27:23
state we can prove that you do not have
27:26
to fragment state structures in order to
27:28
give nations self-determination in other
27:32
words we can have a situation in which
27:34
we can collaborate in the business of
27:36
maintaining a state structure if we fail
27:38
the whole world is going to draw one
27:41
overwhelming lesson which is that every
27:43
nation in the world has to have its
27:45
state if every nation in the world has
27:47
to have a state we will have 5000 States
27:51
instead of 300 and that is a recipe for
27:55
chaos pretty good hair back then I gotta
27:58
say it feels deeply embarrassing where
28:02
did that hair go I haven’t got much of
28:04
it let’s go get your hair what are you
28:05
talking about though do you know what
28:06
can I say though 25 years later those
28:09
words still seem pretty wise and how do
28:10
you think we’re doing at accommodating
28:12
two nations inside one country well I
28:15
think Canada you know when I was in I
28:19
was in Spain about two weeks ago every
28:22
time a Canadian arrives in Spain they
28:25
ask you one question how do you how do
28:27
you guys do it pretty separatist leaders
28:29
in jail there they put separatist
28:30
leaders in jail and my Canadian instinct
28:33
are frankly is that that’s a mistake I’m
28:35
strongly in favor of a the sovereignty
28:38
of national sovereignty of Spain but I
28:40
think judicial izing and criminalizing a
28:43
secessionist attempt was a political
28:45
error these things are solved as we
28:48
solve them by talking and talking and
28:50
talking we we had 30 years of this or
28:52
something it can
28:53
and we were all sick of it but the
28:55
talking saved us and and I think now and
28:59
it doesn’t mean we love each other it
29:01
doesn’t mean Quebec nationalism is over
29:03
it doesn’t mean threats to to even
29:07
Western separatism will will not
29:10
entirely disappear but we’ve managed to
29:13
create a political frame in which we
29:15
talk we discuss we don’t necessarily
29:16
love each other we don’t necessarily
29:18
understand each other all that well
29:20
sometimes but I think there is a kind of
29:22
basic existential commitment to the
29:25
dialogue that makes us Canadians and
29:27
that’s that really is important to the
29:30
world I mean you know it’s important
29:33
when you go to Spain it’s important
29:34
everywhere every country that I ever go
29:37
to looks to Canada not for a lot of
29:41
things but they look to us intensely on
29:43
this issue how did you keep your show on
29:46
the road and what I answer is it was
29:49
politics all the way down and talking
29:52
and keeping it simple and keeping it
29:53
peaceful and that’s the great story that
29:56
Canada has to offer the world it’s
29:58
always good of you when you make the
30:00
trip back over to this side of the pond
30:01
that you spend so much time with us here
30:03
at Evo we’re grateful and let’s keep
30:05
doing it okay well thanks so much Steve
30:07
that’s Michael Ignatieff director and
30:08
president of Central European University
30:14
the agenda with Steve Paikin is brought
30:16
to you by the chartered professional
30:17
accountants of Ontario CPA Ontario is a
30:20
regulator an educator a thought leader
30:23
and an advocate we protect the public we
30:26
advance our profession we guide our CPAs
30:29
we are CPA Ontario and by viewers like
30:33
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30:33
thank you

Stokely Carmichael

He was also frustrated to be drawn again into nonviolent confrontations with police, which he no longer found empowering. After seeing protesters brutally beaten again, he collapsed from stress, and his colleagues urged him to leave the city.[28]

.. Carmichael helped to increase the number of registered black voters from 70 to 2,600—300 more than the number of registered white voters.[2] Black voters had essentially been disfranchised by Alabama’s constitution passed by white Democrats in 1901.

.. Black residents and voters organized and widely supported the Lowndes County Freedom Organization (LCFO), a party that had the black panther as its mascot, over the white-dominated local Democratic Party, whose mascot was a white rooster. Since federal protection from violent voter suppression by the Ku Klux Klan and other white opponents was sporadic, most Lowndes County activists openly carried arms.

.. Although black residents and voters outnumbered whites in Lowndes, their candidate lost the county-wide election of 1965. In 1966, several LCFO candidates ran for office in the general election but failed to win.[31] In 1970, the LCFO merged with the statewide Democratic Party, and former LCFO candidates won their first offices in the county.[32][33]

.. Carmichael became chairman of SNCC in 1966, taking over from John Lewis, who later was elected to the US Congress. A few weeks after Carmichael took office, James Meredith was shot and wounded by a sniper during the solitary March Against Fear. Carmichael joined Martin Luther King Jr.Floyd McKissickCleveland Sellers and others to continue Meredith’s march. He was arrested during the march and, upon his release, he gave his first “Black Power” speech, using the phrase to urge black pride and socio-economic independence:

.. According to Carmichael: “Black Power meant black people coming together to form a political force and either electing representatives or forcing their representatives to speak their needs [rather than relying on established parties]”.[36]

.. Carmichael led SNCC to become more radical. The group focused on Black Power as its core goal and ideology.

.. Carmichael ultimately sided with those calling for the expulsion of whites. He said that whites should organize poor white southern communities, of which there were plenty, while SNCC focused on promoting African-American self-reliance through Black Power.[38]

.. Carmichael considered nonviolence to be a tactic as opposed to an underlying principle

.. that we were never fighting for the right to integrate, we were fighting against white supremacy. Now, then, in order to understand white supremacy we must dismiss the fallacious notion that white people can give anybody their freedom. No man can give anybody his freedom. A man is born free. You may enslave a man after he is born free, and that is in fact what this country does. It enslaves black people after they’re born, so that the only acts that white people can do is to stop denying black people their freedom; that is, they must stop denying freedom. They never give it to anyone.[39]

.. For a time in 1967, Carmichael considered an alliance with Saul Alinsky‘s Industrial Areas Foundation

.. Carmichael popularized the oft-repeated anti-draft slogan, “Hell no-We won’t go!” during this time.[44]

.. Carmichael was targeted by a section of J. Edgar Hoover‘s COINTELPRO (counter-intelligence program) which focused on black activists; the program promoted slander and violence against targets that Hoover considered to be enemies of the US government.[52

.. A March 4, 1968 memo from Hoover states his fear of the rise of a black nationalist “messiah” and notes that Carmichael alone had the “necessary charisma to be a real threat in this way.”[56

.. Hoover stepped up his efforts to divide the black power movement. Declassifed documents show a plan was launched to undermine the SNCC-Panther merger, as well as to bad-jacket” Carmichael as a CIA agent. Both efforts were largely successful: Carmichael was expelled from SNCC that year, and the rival Panthers began to denounce him.[57][58]

.. Carmichael was present in Washington, D.C. the night after King’s assassination in April 1968. He led a group through the streets, demanding that businesses close out of respect. Although he tried to prevent violence, the situation escalated beyond his control. Due to his reputation as a provocateur, the news media blamed Carmichael for the ensuing violence as mobs rioted along U Street and other areas of black commercial development.[62]

.. Carmichael soon began to distance himself from the Panthers. He disagreed with them about whether white activists should be allowed to participate in the movement. The Panthers believed that white activists could help the movement, while Carmichael had come to agree with Malcolm X, and said that the white activists should organize their own communities first.

.. in July 1969, Carmichael published a formal rejection of the Black Panthers, condemning them for not being separatist enough and for their “dogmatic party line favoring alliances with white radicals”.[2]

.. Carmichael’s suspicions about the CIA were affirmed in 2007, when previously secret CIA documents were declassified, revealing that the agency had tracked Carmichael from 1968 as part of their surveillance of black activists abroad. The surveillance continued for years.[67]

.. Kwame Ture, along with Charles V. Hamilton,[79] is credited with coining the phrase “institutional racism“—defined as racism that occurs through institutions such as public bodies and corporations, including universities. In the late 1960s Ture defined “institutional racism” as “the collective failure of an organization to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their color, culture or ethnic origin.”[80]

.. Garrow described the period in 1966 where Ture and other members of the SNCC managed to successfully register 2,600 African American voters in Lowndes County, Alabama, as the most consequential period in Ture’s life “in terms of real, positive, tangible influence on people’s lives.”[4]

Evaluations from Ture’s associates are also mixed, with most praising his efforts and others criticizing him for failing to find constructive ways to achieve his objectives.[81]

.. “Even though we kidded and called him ‘Starmichael,’ he could sublimate his ego to get done what was needed to be done….He would say what he thought, and you could disagree with it but you wouldn’t cease being a human being and someone with whom he wanted to be in relationship.”

Adolph Hitler—I’m not putting a judgment on what he did—if you asked me for my judgment morally, I would say it was bad, what he did was wrong, was evil, etc. But I would say he was a genius, nevertheless . . . . You say he’s not a genius because he committed bad acts. That’s not the question. The question is, he does have genius. Now when we condemn him morally or ethically, we will say, well, he was absolutely wrong, he should be killed, he should be murdered, etc., etc. . . . But if we’re judging his genius objectively, we have to admit that the man was a genius. He forced the entire world to fight him. He was fighting America, France, Britain, Russia, Italy once— then she switched sides—all of them at the same time, and whupping them. That’s a genius, you cannot deny that.[85]

.. “Our paper on the position of women came up, and Stokely in his hipster rap comedic way joked that ‘the proper position of women in SNCC is prone’. I laughed, he laughed, we all laughed.

.. This viciously anti-women outlook is another reason why all of these nationalist movements went nowhere

The Vatican’s America Problem

The Republican Party, which under George W. Bush wrapped the Catholic-inflected language of “compassionate conservatism” around its pro-life commitments, has been pinballing between an Ayn Rand-ish libertarianism and the white identity politics of the Trump era.

.. old 20th century approaches to Catholic politics — both the ethnic-Catholic liberalism of a Mario Cuomo or a Ted Kennedy and the Catholic neoconservatism that shaped figures like Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio or Paul Ryan — seem like they’re out of energy and influence.

.. Western liberalism writ large seems at once hostile to traditional religion and beset by internal contradictions, making the moment ripe for serious Catholic rethinking, a new and perhaps even post-liberal Catholic politics.

..  the religious votes for the cheerfully pagan Trump and the growing interest in traditionalism, radicalism and separatism, are not the culmination of the Catholic-evangelical alliance but rather a reaction to its political and cultural failures — and the failures of liberal religious politics as well.

.. leaders and thinkers have spent decades rallying to the republic, trying to bring about its moral and political renewal … only to see republican virtues decaying, liberalism turning hostile to religious faith, and democratic capitalism delivering disappointment and dislocation

.. in their evident paranoia about what the Americans are up to, you see a different spirit: a fear of novelty and disruption, and a desire for a church that’s primarily a steward of social peace, a mild and ecumenical presence, a moderate pillar of the establishment in a stable and permanently liberal age.