How Love Will Defeat Hate | Russell Brand & Deeyah Khan | Under The Skin

Documentary filmmaker Deeyah Khan is determined to confront hate and prejudice by meeting some of the most extremist groups in the world. She has sat down with White Supremicists in the US and interviewed former Jihadists to further understand what drives people to join these groups.
Her film “White Right: Meecomplexting The Enemy” won an Emmy and is available on Netflix. We discuss the role politics, class, feminism and everything in between plays in relation to this issue.

74:08
why do you only care when the
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perpetrator is the other man and
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similarly you see in the Muslim side of
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things as well you’ll see a lot of
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Muslim men who will be saying look at
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white American soldiers who are raping
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our women in Afghanistan who are raping
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our women in Iraq and you sort of go
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when rape happens by a white man you
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suddenly are women’s rights activists
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and suddenly you care I understand so
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it’s sort of like a confirmation bias
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meaning way of validating existing
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prejudice by pointing to truly horriffic
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transgressions and using them to bolster
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a pre-existing ideology of hatred so
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somehow your vile violence is okay
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because the other guy does it too but
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yes all their violence is worth and also
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earth and international level types of
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violence are considered necessary types
75:04
of violence are considered rational
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expedient whereas other types of
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violence that are wacky religious crazy
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hands-on which side of the equation
75:12
you’re on yes do you believe in God yeah
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I believe in love
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hmm yeah so so I use the word love even
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more than I use the word God why because
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to me that’s what it actually means it
75:29
means a kind of a unity of purpose and a
75:31
sort of benevolent oneness yeah how do
75:34
you think that these ideas can be
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popularized and do you think that these
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ideas can be politicized and potent they
75:44
are they already are and and how do you
75:47
popularize it I think the fact that
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somebody like you does this and I think
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that somebody like you I said this to
75:54
you when I walked in as well you know
75:55
you don’t have to do this you can very
75:57
comfortably do whatever it is that you
75:59
do and be you know comfortable deal with
76:03
your own kind of you know spirituality
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and your own practice and and that’s
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fine and your way of accomplishing
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change in the world is just by you
76:09
yourself appearing in the world in in
76:12
the kind of best sort of manifestation
76:15
of yourself as you can and that in
76:17
itself is is changing the world right
76:19
but you’re choosing to go beyond that
76:21
you’re choosing to to speak about issues
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that are difficult to speak about you’re
76:26
choosing to engage with people who are
76:27
difficult to engage with you’re choosing
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to ask questions that are uncomfortable
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and unpleasant but necessary so I think
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how we move the conversation forward is
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everyone doing their version of that if
76:39
they can you know at the same time I
76:41
don’t believe that we should sort of
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pressurize people or make people feel
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guilty or burdened by you know you have
76:47
to do this otherwise we’re all screwed
76:48
you know it’s people contribute in the
76:50
way that they can contribute and if you
76:52
just smile to a person if you don’t
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clutch on to your purse when a young
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Somali boy walks onto the bus and
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instead look at him and actually
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acknowledge him and nod and smile that
77:05
in itself is you’ve changed the dynamic
77:09
in the world a little bit so I think I
77:12
think people underestimate the the
77:15
individual responsibility and the
77:18
individual acts of kindness yeah do you
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not they do well partly out I would say
77:24
that we live in a time that place is so
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much responsibility thanks for those
77:27
lovely things you said about me by the
77:29
way
77:29
that replaces too much responsible
77:32
on the individual that we are told that
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you know that I guess we are given these
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roles in life as consumers we operating
77:44
within quite narrow parameters I think
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what you said about hope is very
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important a lot of people just don’t
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believe that change is possible and when
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I think about why I continue to engage
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in conversation I have a stand what we
77:58
were talking about prior to our recorded
78:00
conversation I have as you clearly do a
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belief in the optimum in in there that
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there is an ulterior reality that’s
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trying to realize itself through the
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purchase nosov human beings that’s
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inviting us to overcome our personal
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darkness and to build systems and
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connections based on the beautiful
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aspects of our nature as opposed to the
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darker aspects of our nature when we are
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culturally encouraged to focus on
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ourselves and our competitiveness and
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our darkness our last and our fear we
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live in a culture that promotes these
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values so you are right in a sense we
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have to discard the way that you did
78:47
when I was asking you about Muslims you
78:49
still really kind of answer I want is
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like or what anywhere a scarf or a job
78:53
all that kind of thing still would have
78:55
liked a bit of a clearer answer about
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that because it’s not necessary that the
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fact that you think that that is
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something that I I should or that that’s
79:04
something that might be an obligation
79:05
you even care about it you care if women
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do it down relevant I mean I run a
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magazine you know where we are
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constantly support I mean it’s set up
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with the purpose of of showing the the
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wide variety of Muslim experiences and
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Muslim women’s experiences that exist in
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the world and in that you know we are
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publishing articles of women who are not
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just you know we’re here jobs but also
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wearing the carbs and you know women who
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write things that I personally disagree
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with but that’s the whole point you have
79:35
to allow people the full expression of
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what it means to be a human being to
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that person and if that means having
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your hair out that means having
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every type of politics it means loving
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whoever that you want to love that means
79:50
all of that doesn’t matter
79:51
our job is to or my job I feel in
79:55
whatever tiny ways that I can is to try
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and support people and facilitate an
79:59
environment where people can flourish
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and be themselves as fully as possible
80:04
regardless of what that means and
80:06
regardless of whether I approve of it or
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not and whether I think it’s right or
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not but I also ask for that same
80:12
courtesy sort of for myself you know
80:15
it’s why I have to qualify myself as a
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Muslim through having to wear a hijab or
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having to look like this or hold this
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belief or that belief is is sort of it’s
80:28
sort of irrelevant it’s it’s it’s I am
80:31
what I am
and similarly there are the it’s complex
people are complicated and we have to
allow for people to be complicated
why
do we have to fit them into these nice
meat boxes just for our own satisfaction
you know these Nazis I had all these
opinions about them very neat little
boxes of you know they’re just this
they’re just that they’re justice and
shouldn’t they just this or and they
don’t people our people have many layers
to them and and to only define them by
their their their visual or their in any
kind of superficial symbols I think is
is reducing somebody’s humanity all the
work that I do is about is actually
about recognizing ourselves in each
other it is to try and locate the
humanity in someone else not so much to
find their humanity but it’s actually in
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an attempt to hold on to my own Wow you
81:31
know and it’s Annie and that’s important
81:33
and and I’ve said this many times and
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people kind of roll their eyes at this
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but you know it’s I refuse as a woman of
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color as a you know the long laundry
81:42
list of you know the things that I
81:43
consider myself to be I know what it
81:45
feels like to be stereotyped I know what
81:47
it feels like to be dehumanized and
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because of because of that I refuse to
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do that to somebody else even if that
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means a Nazi because if I am willing to
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somebody else then there’s no difference
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left mm-hmm and and that’s what I’m kind
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of working against is this kind of
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simplification of people this kind of
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caricature of people for from my
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convenience it’s not supposed to be
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convenient it’s supposed to just be
82:17
messy and wonderful and complicated it’s
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supposed to just be human and that’s the
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battle isn’t it the you know the whole
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challenge the whole thing is about
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recognizing that I can see myself in you
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and vice versa and there’s something in
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that and once we can recognize that it
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becomes harder for me to harm you and to
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hurt you or to exercise violence against
82:41
you and this is why on a bigger level
82:44
why our politicians encourage us to
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dehumanize each other is so that
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violence becomes possible it is so that
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we can strip each other of our rights it
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is so that we can become reduced just to
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a consumer or just to a voter you know
82:59
we’re not just anything we’re not just a
83:02
hijab we’re not just a woman or just you
83:05
know a famous guy who’s trying to do a
83:07
pod car to you than that there’s more to
83:10
me than that there’s more to the Nazis
83:12
than that there’s more to the jihadis
83:14
than that so the more we can get
83:16
underneath all the noise and and the
83:20
kind of static to the real heart to the
83:23
real the heartbeat of it the closer we
83:27
get to solutions and and you know it’s
83:31
we can’t afford we can’t afford to give
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up on each other is how I feel it’s it’s
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it’s we’re all in this together and I
83:45
think if we give up any if we give up on
83:47
each other then we’re also giving up on
83:49
ourselves and I think then we’re handing
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over you speak about power you’re about
83:53
power you’re about power me too if we do
83:57
that then we’re handing over our power
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and I refuse to do that I spoke to I do
84:02
a lot of work with women’s rights
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activists all around the world and in
84:06
particular in in with women from Muslim
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majority countries and again people in
84:11
the West would constantly
84:12
like to cast us as victims and as poor
84:14
pathetic women who are being abused and
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this that and the other but what I have
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found amongst a lot of these women who I
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consider to be my mentors who I
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considered to be my complete inspiration
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is even in the darkest darkest
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environments they’re able to hold on to
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light they’re able to hold on to
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resistance they’re able to smile they’re
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able to love they’re able to laugh and
84:36
they’re able to just do politics times
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10 and I asked one of them Hina Jilani
84:42
is her name and I remember asking her
84:44
you know why why are you hopeful you
84:47
know why why are you such an optimist
84:49
and she said she said because we don’t
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have the luxury of pessimism and I think
84:55
that’s true and to me if women like that
84:58
in circumstances that seem impossible
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and odds that seems completely stacked
85:04
against them are able to hold on to
85:06
their humanity and they’re constantly
85:08
some of the women that I work with are
85:09
working to bring their boys back from
85:13
Isis and from various militias to try
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and and reintegrate them back into life
85:20
and realize that jihad is not about
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spilling blood it’s about giving blood
85:24
at a hospital if women like this exist
85:27
when they’ve got everything against them
85:29
then because I asked you this why do you
85:32
do the things that you do the reason I
85:34
do it is I was lucky enough to be born
85:36
in a in a country like Norway and I’m
85:39
lucky enough to live in a place like the
85:40
UK for all of its faults and all of its
85:42
stuff I could have been born and I could
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have been born a girl in Afghanistan and
85:49
I think with all the privilege that I
85:51
have and all the advantages that I have
85:54
here surely it’s part of my
85:58
responsibility to do something useful
86:00
with that otherwise what good is it if
86:03
it’s just for me if only I get to
86:06
breathe and I get to be free and I get
86:08
to do what I want to do what good is it
86:10
if the woman next to me is bleeding well
86:14
good is it so privileged do you good
86:17
rent is you see as a duty it’s a
86:22
responsibility
86:23
see hmm you have to do something about
86:26
it have you any thoughts about how men
86:31
and women can relate to one another more
86:34
positively in this time that seems to be
86:38
seeing bifurcation and polarity between
86:40
the genders I think my skill energy has
86:44
to be reimagined I think what it means
86:45
to be a man the fact that the
86:48
associations to that has become about
86:50
dominance and violence and power the
86:54
fact that men some men anyway seek their
86:58
sense of self through through those
87:02
things I think we have to reimagine what
87:04
it means to be a man we have to
87:06
reimagine what masculinity means and I
87:08
think we have to liberate men from the
87:11
very very tiny tiny incredibly narrow
87:14
destructive boxes that they get to
87:16
operate within and I think we have to
87:18
make it okay for men to feel things and
87:20
to articulate their feelings and to say
87:25
and this is why I appreciate what you
87:27
again I appreciate what you do because
87:29
again you being in the position that you
87:31
are and you being is open and willing to
87:33
be vulnerable and willing to admit that
87:36
oh my goodness you do have feelings you
87:39
know I think it’s so important for young
87:41
men to see because I think we constantly
87:44
talk about women being at the receiving
87:47
end of toxic masculinity but I think
87:50
toxic masculinity is also killing men so
87:52
I think we need to liberate men from
87:54
that as well so how do we do that is I
87:56
think we have to speak about it as much
87:59
as possible and we have to make young
88:01
men understand that the liberation of
88:03
women is not and feminism is not just
88:06
about women
88:08
it’s actually about equalizing the sort
88:10
of playing field and also liberating men
88:13
from this cage yes liberation for men
88:16
from the narrative roles that they have
88:20
been granted which ultimately I would
88:23
say our roles that are prescribed by the
88:26
powerful directly but oh you know so
88:30
like we meant that I think this has gone
88:31
on for substantially longer than
88:34
was intended you know often and I don’t
88:36
trouble you with this kind of detail
88:38
people would hold up like a things and
88:41
like I really mean it’s 90 minutes now
88:43
and it continues but I think you’ve done
88:45
such an incredible work already I’m
88:47
fascinated to see the work that you will
88:50
continue to do and I hope that I can be
88:52
of some help to you does it make sense
88:54
what I’m saying no I think you may be
88:56
mentally of course it makes sense what
89:00
you’re saying I think but do you believe
89:02
that it’s doable do you believe that
89:04
what I’m saying that on an individual
89:06
level is how we start oh and building
89:09
solidarity between people yes beginning
89:13
has to be non judgement and well-being
89:15
while being personally discerning I also
89:17
believe that we have to have a
89:18
relationship with the transcendent which
89:20
you seem to understand that I think that
89:21
perhaps the primary problem is we define
89:23
ourselves by outward and material ideals
89:27
I think that if we can start to
89:29
challenge them we can start to break
89:31
down identity and reform identity I’m
89:34
not talking about some sort of
89:35
postmodern nightmare where no one knows
89:38
what England is anymore I’m saying is
89:40
that was you suggested in your very
89:42
first controversial insighting interview
89:45
that we have to reimagine states that
89:49
includes all of us the best version of
89:52
all of us and I think it’s this
89:53
obliteration of hope to which you
89:56
continually refer that is an important
89:59
factor that we need to reignite rien Dao
90:02
encourage people once more to believe in
90:05
a new vision one thing I did want to
90:07
pick you up on was when you spoke about
90:09
politicians and their visions you sort
90:11
of spoke of it in the abstract and in
90:12
fact your body language was you placed
90:14
it over there somewhere
90:15
and I think that possibly the
90:17
responsibility lies with us the the time
90:20
for abstract leadership particularly
90:22
within bodies there as we now know sort
90:24
of operate primarily at the behest of
90:25
corporate interests you know with the
90:30
excluding one or two noble I think the
90:34
extremes are actually reacting to
90:36
exactly what you’re saying
90:38
I think the extreme that the the all
90:40
these kind of convulsions that we’re
90:42
seeing on the fringes of our societies
90:44
is an actual reaction to the
90:47
that we’ve been reduced down to
90:48
consumers were being reduced down to all
90:51
these incredibly dehumanizing labels and
90:53
I think their attempts are actually
90:58
Noble in Anna and I kind of it’s a bit
91:01
uncomfortable for me to even say they
91:03
sort of feel this but I think some of
91:05
their intentions are actually no wolf in
91:07
that they’re fighting it mainstream is
91:09
well yeah and in the you know that their
91:11
intentions are actually about love
91:14
believe it or not it’s actually not hate
91:15
that drives them I know we keep talking
91:17
about hate when we’re speaking about
91:18
people like that but it’s actually love
91:20
and loyalty for each other and for a
91:23
future that they believe is it better
91:25
they don’t want to they are kind of the
91:28
collateral damage of global
91:30
globalization of of kind of this
91:32
consumer hyper extreme capitalist system
91:36
as well and so they’re trying to create
91:40
more meaning and and to become powerful
91:43
instead of powerless they want to matter
91:46
because they don’t and also as a culture
91:49
we only you have to you know sort of
91:52
think that the only time we reward these
91:54
guys with our attention is when they do
91:57
horrible things
91:58
so they matter to us when they commit
92:01
crimes sorry they’re telling you that
92:03
was ninety five minutes that we don’t
92:05
even have a sign for that sorry so I’m
92:07
not to make a new side to amalgamate the
92:10
five and the ninety signs never been
92:12
used before in completely new territory
92:13
an imagined realm history itself but no
92:17
less I just wanna do these quick could
92:18
do you mind if I ask you these quick
92:20
questions which we may be able to use
92:22
for clips and stuff because they’re more
92:24
to do with contemporary issues okay so
92:27
we talked about Tommy Robinson and Asian
92:30
grooming gangs and you were extremely
92:32
passionate weren’t ya it’s inspired one
92:34
of your girl greater rants one among
92:36
many in the league table of deer and
92:38
stars in constructing his Donald Trump a
92:42
real threat to Muslims and minorities in
92:45
America yes how
92:52
because he is dehumanizing anyone who
92:55
doesn’t fit into his vision of what it
92:57
means to be an American and what it
92:59
means to be a citizen and I think his
93:02
continuous reduction of people’s
93:06
humanity in this way will ultimately be
93:10
a recipe for violence really good and
93:12
surprisingly sinked he’s wearing a hijab
93:15
or burka anti-feminist
93:18
I think wearing a hijab can absolutely
93:24
be feminist burka I have real real
93:27
issues with personally right but again I
93:32
am a feminist concealing well the worker
93:35
also you meet very often it also
93:37
includes a niqab so it means you know
93:38
only your eyes showing so I have
93:40
problems with that when it comes to
93:43
hijab I completely will support women’s
93:45
rights to to choose that and to wear it
93:48
line then where’s the cutoff it’s like
93:50
it’s a creeping bit of fabric that’s
93:52
gotta be stopped at a certain bit the
93:54
face I think well I think it’s a matter
93:58
of the creeping fabric but I think it’s
94:00
also a matter of the age of the the
94:01
woman I think you know like I don’t
94:03
believe in compulsory veiling for
94:04
children I think that if you are at an
94:06
age where you can make an informed
94:08
decision about you know your politics
94:10
and your your body and how you manifest
94:12
your you know idea we don’t even think
94:14
that the Nazis are making informed
94:16
decisions we think they’re making
94:18
misinformed decisions we think that your
94:20
hat isn’t making misinformed decisions
94:22
that no one’s making informed decisions
94:24
people are responding to stimuli that’s
94:26
bogus distracting and misleading what
94:30
autonomy is there what free will is
94:31
there what is there accept abandoned in
94:33
fact of our individual identity at the
94:37
sack to be sacrificed at the altar of
94:39
some higher ideal called love or God no
94:42
but I I don’t think that it’s as fluid
94:43
as that I think you know it’s it’s all
94:46
really went for it you know but but you
94:48
know you look at Iran you know
94:49
compulsory veiling you know it’s a nanny
94:51
and if a woman just you know lightly
94:52
loose and surveil you know it’s it’s
94:53
it’s a it’s a reason for her getting
94:55
punished
94:56
you know violently or with prison
94:57
sentences or with social ramifications
94:59
same in Saudi Arabia you cannot walk
95:02
you know the the the kind of conduct
95:06
that women are expected to expected to
95:08
participate in is incredibly reductive
95:12
when it comes to their humanity so I
95:14
think it’s not as fluid as that but I do
95:16
think in Western countries you know with
95:18
so many of my Muslim female friends who
95:20
do choose to wear the hijab I absolutely
95:23
support it I choose not to my
95:24
grandmother didn’t use it my mother
95:26
doesn’t use it but a lot of other women
95:28
do they have done in the past and they
95:30
will continue to in the future and I
95:31
support that when it comes to the burka
95:33
for me personally not so much will if a
95:36
woman sits herself down here right now
95:38
and says look here this is my choice I
95:40
really feel more comfortable this way I
95:42
would say great I will fight for your
95:44
right to do so but when it comes to
95:46
three year olds four year olds five year
95:48
olds I’m not a fan of that but can it be
95:52
feminist it can be I don’t particularly
95:54
like I don’t know how many times I’m
95:57
gonna say that I don’t particularly like
95:58
the book as you can imagine about it
96:01
yeah what about auntie fur our Auntie
96:05
fur as bad as the far right how do you
96:07
mean by as bad as you know volatile
96:10
aggressive extremists I do think that
96:14
aspects of the auntie fur are becoming I
96:18
think there’s a Co radicalization going
96:20
on I think the extreme right and the
96:22
extreme left are kind of feeding off
96:23
each other and I do think that in in and
96:26
again I think masculinity comes here
96:28
more than anything else I think in in
96:29
the attempt to outdo the other end of
96:32
the spectrum I think both sides are
96:34
becoming more and more willing to to
96:37
relegate their political views to
96:40
violent expression which I disagree with
96:43
regardless of which side it comes from
96:45
but obviously my political leaning is on
96:48
the left anyway so I mean I’ve been a
96:50
part of kind of the ante for protests in
96:53
my own life and you got that spray the I
96:56
did I used to be a Nazi when I see
96:58
remember that other day yeah remember
97:00
that one are they as bad as each other I
97:04
think it depends on their behavior I
97:07
don’t agree with violence no matter who
97:11
perpetrates it does have some general
97:13
principles like that isn’t it let’s not
97:14
have violence there
97:15
let people express their individuality
97:17
and up to harming others yeah consent
97:22
just basic ideas right there are some
97:25
general principles that we can have the
97:29
label saying no have we surpassed all
97:32
that people are just saying five stuff
97:33
out there now they’ve gone it’s just you
97:36
know people I am recording this we’re
97:38
having this conversation hey this is the
97:43
thing say when I chatted to Jordan
97:45
Peterson and he says that much of the
97:48
rise of the current wave of feminism and
97:51
the anger inhered within it is in
97:54
accordance with us a archetype known as
97:58
the I can’t really the exact sort of the
98:02
exact archetype is saying that it’s in
98:04
accordance with an idea of that sort of
98:05
a negative female energy like the
98:07
devouring mother that what we protest
98:10
against is the sort of like you know
98:11
that there’s the possibility for the
98:13
positive male the you know benevolent
98:15
king they’re cruel King the benevolent
98:18
mother they’re cruel mother that we are
98:21
experiencing not you know people took a
98:23
lot about toxic masculinity what about
98:25
toxic femininity that’s a good more
98:27
succinct way of saying that there is
98:30
such a thing do you think so toxic
98:32
femininity do yeah that’s the my
98:34
question I mean III don’t know how that
98:36
manifests itself I don’t know how was
98:38
right – rage rage against the patriarchy
98:42
commerce but how is that toxic I mean
98:45
it’s it’s if you are on the receiving
98:46
end of persecution abuse violence
98:50
oppression for centuries
98:53
then if women dare to be angry for once
98:58
and not fill that the prescribed boxes
99:01
of be a good thing of government be
99:03
obedient
99:04
be be you know be a good girl don’t
99:07
react to be polite if women for once get
99:11
angry at being cut walking brutalized
99:14
and that’s it yeah yeah but what about
99:19
min ago when you just said with Muslims
99:22
we can’t have one category that is
99:24
Muslim with 1.5 billion people this the
99:27
need
99:29
to verify the the feminism is that there
99:32
is such a thing as a woman and that
99:34
there is such a thing as female
99:35
oppression couldn’t we similarly regard
99:37
oppression as happening at the level of
99:39
economics of under classes that occurs
99:42
regardless of gender well but it happens
99:46
because of agenda it happens but but you
99:49
but there are multiple layers of
99:50
oppression though that there’s not one
99:52
women don’t experience oppression just
99:55
because of their gender women also have
99:57
class women also have race you know all
99:59
these other markers aren’t just the
100:02
luxury of men or just the identifiers of
100:05
men they’re also identified identifiers
100:07
of women so women experience all the
100:10
layers of oppression that for example a
100:12
working-class man a working-class woman
100:14
experienced all the same forms of
100:17
oppression that are working-class mandus
100:18
but she has one added form of oppression
100:22
which also is assigned to her gender so
100:25
a woman can be standing out in in the
100:29
streets of or Tahrir Square in Egypt
100:31
right fighting against the oppressor
100:33
against Mubarak at the time
100:36
the Arab Spring when that was going on
100:38
she can be standing shoulder to shoulder
100:40
with her male you know there they were
100:42
demanding for freedom and and liberty
100:44
and dignity and bread and and you know
100:46
various other things but that woman also
100:50
has the added pressure of being
100:53
oppressed and abused potentially by her
100:55
father brother husband partner but the
100:58
man doesn’t I also work a lot with
101:00
artistic freedom and an artists who are
101:02
persecuted and in prison and tortured
101:04
and censored for various reasons women
101:07
experienced all the same things as their
101:08
male counterparts female journalists
101:10
experienced the same thing as their
101:12
their male counterparts with the added
101:14
layer of abuse that comes with the fact
101:17
that you’re a woman I understand this
101:20
Jordan Peters I think I actually only
101:21
got familiar with him through your work
101:23
actually people kept mentioning his name
101:25
I’m you know I’m still not that familiar
101:27
with him I appreciate the fact that he
101:29
is tracked he trying to speak to
101:30
something in men who are really
101:32
struggling and are really searching for
101:34
something I really appreciate that and I
101:35
think it’s really important that
101:36
somebody speak to that however I don’t
101:39
think that that needs to be at
101:40
expensive women and at the expense of
101:42
women getting to manifest their there
101:45
for Humanity it doesn’t have to be
101:47
either/or that’s what I do but perhaps
101:49
then we shouldn’t be opposing those
101:52
arguments by using its binary opposite
101:55
perhaps we should be continually
101:56
rejecting those terms those labels
102:01
female male you know I’m not suggesting
102:04
that we’ve become some kind of beingness
102:07
but just be human we can I agree with
102:11
you I agree with you but I think I think
102:13
we can try to aspire to the label of
102:16
human but the the reason these labels
102:19
matter in the process of getting to that
102:21
place is until and until oppression and
102:26
violence and an abuse of women stops in
102:30
the name of their gender in the name of
102:33
because you are a woman you are less
102:36
than until that stops we don’t get to
102:40
the category of we are all human
102:42
all women want all feminism is about
102:44
it’s not an T male it’s not we want men
102:48
to have less rights or we want now it’s
102:50
the time of women they want women to
102:52
take men to take a back seat
102:54
it is about liberating us all to just
102:57
yeah but when you speak on behalf of a
103:00
kind of spiritual progressivism you
103:03
speak as an individual when you speak in
103:04
terms of gender you speak as if feminism
103:06
is one you near when I would imagine
103:09
there are possibility many times I feel
103:10
it is different no no no I I don’t speak
103:12
of it as a unit I speak more as the
103:17
general experiences of women across the
103:21
world having done the work that I’ve
103:22
done and of course I can only you know
103:24
be in contact with so many people
103:26
personally but in the contact that I
103:28
have had it is absolutely undeniable
103:33
that women are suffering in so many
103:37
different contexts around the world
103:39
whether it comes to equal pay whether it
103:43
comes to equal protection under the law
103:45
whether it comes to protection from
103:47
violence whether it comes from there
103:50
just basic dignity and human rights when
103:53
something is expand
103:54
even as global as that how can you know
103:56
like I’m a man and but my most important
104:00
relationship in my life are with women
104:02
there all of them like so like I
104:05
obviously have a vested interest in the
104:08
people I love most living in a fair and
104:10
equal society
104:12
yeah I’m not particularly unique among
104:17
men
104:18
you’re not other than the charisma and
104:19
the eyebrows let’s not rule them out I
104:21
like it in loads of ways I’d like my
104:23
priorities would be the people I love
104:25
and the people I love are women and this
104:27
is where I do have I mean I do have
104:29
arguments with my feminist friends who
104:30
basically say you know me some of them
104:33
do say you know men are kind of a lost
104:35
cause all that kind of right there are
104:37
different types of feminism I’m not
104:39
saying that there aren’t I’m not saying
104:40
that there aren’t to me the goal is that
104:45
we all get to a place where we are just
104:47
human that’s got to be the goal that is
104:49
the goal that absolutely is the goal and
104:51
that is also the goal of a lot of
104:53
feminists maybe not all as a woman
104:57
believe that one of the areas that most
104:59
needs to be addressed is gender
105:00
inequality and then I as a man believe
105:02
for some quirky biographical reason
105:05
think iceberg to do with class and
105:07
oppression that have dinner Lille I know
105:09
but it’s I don’t believe that it’s just
105:11
got to do with gender I believe that
105:12
it’s got to do with gender class race
105:15
icon it’s got to do with all of it
105:18
that’s that’s the difference I’m saying
105:21
that gender is one more layer of
105:23
identity or one more layer of the
105:25
experience of being a human being that
105:28
defines what that experience is for for
105:30
an individual for a human in the time
105:33
that we have here so I’m not saying that
105:35
it’s not class not race not all of this
105:38
it absolutely is but one more experience
105:41
is also gender and I also want to say
105:43
that you being a man and like you just
105:45
said you know your closest relationships
105:47
or you know kind of investments in human
105:49
beings are actually with a lot of women
105:51
I think where a lot of feminists are
105:56
struggling or where we need to do better
105:59
if I mean I don’t really like a group
106:01
thing anyway but there you go if we have
106:04
to speak in those terms I I think we’re
106:06
feminists could
106:07
better is to understand that we are only
106:10
going to win these battles shoulder to
106:12
shoulder it has to be man and women
106:14
together
106:15
it cannot be women will win this battle
106:17
and men will win this battle and then
106:19
we’ll somehow figure it out together
106:20
it’s we have to fight together but you
106:22
tell me how do we involve more men you
106:24
know every like when I’ve been to
106:26
conferences and and conversations or
106:28
whatever about violence against women
106:29
the entire room it’s filled with women
106:32
the perpetrator is male so where’s the
106:35
guy I reckon it’s by you know luck when
106:38
we talked about James Baldwin I mean it
106:40
go yeah it’s by reconciling that the
106:44
identity is non-binary of sort of a
106:47
modern gender politics idea within that
106:51
you have to liberate the femaleness that
106:55
is almost like a kind of internal brexit
106:59
well fifty-one percent you know wanna
107:01
leave forty-nine percent want to stay
107:04
any man is almost female that we are
107:08
closer to reject these terms to liberate
107:11
the female within yourself to
107:12
acknowledge that women are the most
107:15
important people probably in your own
107:17
life and not to commodify and objectify
107:21
other human beings and to look at how
107:25
look at your own life and see where you
107:27
do that and see and be willing to change
107:30
a lot of people aren’t willing to change
107:31
I think you can do with anyone who’s
107:33
willing to change you hasn’t ossified
107:34
into a belief system that they use
107:37
instead of an identity yeah but I think
107:39
that that means that both sides of the
107:41
argument have to as you said be willing
107:43
to stand shoulder to shoulder willing to
107:44
reconcile willing to have a shared
107:46
vision is about creating an ideal as
107:49
opposed to venting ray yes and I mean
107:52
ultimately the goal like we said you
107:53
know it is about how do we ensure that’s
107:56
that people’s full humanity and whatever
107:59
their dreams and their hopes and their
108:01
their loves and and and whatever that
108:03
whatever their vision of themselves and
108:06
their future is that that gets to
108:08
manifest its manifest itself in its full
108:11
flourishing positive wonderful glory and
108:14
how do we how do we do that together how
108:17
do we do that without demeaning each
108:20
other
108:20
and to me the answer it’s sort of in my
108:23
kind of personal sort of small life is
108:26
being empathy empathy is kind of one of
108:28
the most important tools and one of the
108:30
most instruments I think that we have
108:32
available to us that we need to deploy
108:34
in that and and there within that is
108:37
it’s about stories how do we tell
108:40
stories in a way that we see ourselves
108:43
in each other where we recognize our
108:45
humanity in each other where we make it
108:47
possible for a disenfranchised man to
108:51
recognize what it might be like to be a
108:54
woman who’s experiencing violence and
108:56
vice versa you know and how do we and
108:58
also for us to recognize that a lot of
109:01
these barriers are sort of barriers and
109:04
divisions these walls I mean Trump keeps
109:06
talking about building a physical so
109:08
what are you for but but you know he’s
109:11
been so successful at building walls
109:13
between us as human beings already that
109:15
wall doesn’t the physical doesn’t exist
109:17
he’s already being successful in that so
109:19
how do we break down those walls how do
109:21
we create some more in plural inclusive
109:24
future you’re an incredible person I
109:27
think that what you are doing by placing
109:32
yourself among the people that you would
109:34
have the most obvious conflict is a
109:37
brilliant way of metabolizing our
109:40
potential to transcend those barriers
109:44
and boundaries and create connections
109:46
and ultimately having the optimistic
109:49
perspective that you clearly have that
109:51
love is more powerful than I that we
109:53
will get there that you will never undo
109:56
hatred with more hatred and that we have
109:58
to continually reach out in love to the
110:00
people that we have opposed it and
110:02
certainly those that oppose us yes dear
110:05
Wow what an incredible conversation that
110:06
is I feel a little bit like I’ve taken
110:08
drugs word drugs likewise thank you
110:14
you know thanks for watching this
110:16
podcast and going all the way to the end
110:18
of it was using kind of to kick the bell
110:19
when I’ve been able over there and
110:21
they’re subscribing so that we can
110:23
infiltrate your serenity and peace of
110:27
mind with jangling bells and buzzers

Russell Brand & Jordan Peterson – Kindness VS Power | Under The Skin #46

11:45
another way of thinking about it you
could identify with what you understand
that’s what ideologues do

you could
identify with you don’t with what you
don’t understand and that’s what sort of
seekers
after truth identify with or you
could identify with the process of
moving between those states you know
sometimes you know what you’re doing you
know where you are you you you’re you’re
in control and and and you can become
arrogant and identify with that and then
become too static about it right or you
can be in despair and everything is
chaotic and you can identify with that
in which case you’re not listing or you
can view yourself as the thing that
moves across the transformations and
that’s that’s the right way to to
conceptualize yourself is your the thing
that maintains constancy across
transformations one imagines that your
experience with the controversies around

..
18:19
ideologically you reject to these
taxonomy and you identify basically on
the base on the basis of research like
empiricism in a sense you can say like
you know I’m an open-minded tough person
this language is clinical psychology so
your faith is clinical psychology
average well we’ve done a fair bit of
research in my lab on yes the
temperamental predictors of political
predisposition and we can predict what
parties people are going to align
themselves with by studying their
personality so liberal types liberal
left types are high in a trait called
openness and open people you’re a very
open person and you can tell because you
think laterally you know you have an
idea and then it reminds you of a whole
bunch of other ideas and so you’ll move
laterally across ideas and a more
conservative person they’ll stay within
the category you know and so your
conversational style is is marked by by
divergences now that’s actually called
divergent thinking
it’s a hallmark of
three goodie
well it’s good if you want to be
creative
the problem with there’s
there’s a price for everything hey the
price for creativity is that it’s hard
to catalyze an identity because you’re
interested in everything that’s the
first thing and your interest will flip
from one thing to another so one of the
problems that creative people have while
they have to one is they have a hard
time establishing an identity and the
second is they have a hard time
monetizing their creativity it’s very
difficult to be a creative person and
make money
you can make money for other
people but usually you’re dead by them
so it’s not very helpful for you Jordan
both of those problems are as a result
of external structures the imposition of
external structures on the individual ie
make money
you know a problem of capitalism and you
know commerce more broadly and the other
one of identity similarly you know
something is is there a sort of a
peculiar contradiction in around
identity in that like it seems to be on
one level that you reject taxonomy so
you’re saying that these systems eg if
you say women are being paid less money
your argument would be we’ll hold on a
minute there are other factors other
than gender it here exact agree later
today argument it’s a funny thing
because the intersectional feminists
always always claim that you should take
other factors into account
right woman
man isn’t enough yeah black isn’t enough
well there’s a there’s a pay gap between
men and women but it’s not only to due
to gender stood all sorts of things and
you have to take them into account
so it’s really an intersectional
argument
no one’s grateful for it he’s
an intersectional argument so I like so
do you feel then cuz what I sense he’s
happening like trying to understand
where like our worldviews would align
and where potentially there would be
opposition between you and I well I’m
totally because it seems to in looking
at your work you say oh I don’t agree
with the way that this information is
being compiled I don’t agree with the
assumptions that you’re trying to saddle
that piece of data with it seems to me

26:50
didn’t understand that truth comes in
different forms depending on its
application
it’s a tricky thing

there’s the truths that apply when you’re
attempting to describe the
transformations of the material world

and there’s

the truths that apply when
you’re trying to determine how it is
that you should act
while you’re alive
and those obviously those have to come
into alignment but they’re not in
alignment right now and my sense and
this is a sense that’s being developed
at least in part from reading the great
psychoanalysts is that fictional
accounts metafictional accounts even
like biblical columns which are
mythological are stories about how it is
that people should act not stories about
what the material structure of the world

is like this is also where the
fundamentalists have it wrong as far as
I’m concerned because the
fundamentalists like to think that the
account in Genesis is a scientific
theory
it can be started up against
other scientific theory short they are
materializing the myth it yes that’s
right
she’s unhelpful well it’s not a help
well first of all it’s not doesn’t even
make any sense because the materialist
types in any real sense weren’t around
until about 500 years ago right this was
only set by light heart and Descartes
and and bacon and well Galileo was
another player but those were the two
the two major players established the
scientific method there weren’t
scientists before then I mean there were
very intelligent people who could
analyze the structure of the world
the
ancient Greeks were obviously very
rational and capable of philosophy but
there was no science until 500 years ago
and so obviously the people who wrote
Genesis weren’t scientists
because there
weren’t any scientists so whatever and I
also think that though the world they
described is much more it’s much better
considered the world of experience than
the world of material reality and well
look here’s an idea you can you can try
this one on
besides I’d be trying this on audiences
for quite a long time so modern people
say they think the world is made out of
things but if you watch them that’s not
how they act they act like the world is
made out of potential and so they’ll
even say things to each other like
you’re not living up to your potential

you might say well what is this
potential that you’re talking about you
can’t doesn’t have a color doesn’t have
a shape it doesn’t have a mass it
29:17
doesn’t have a size I think there’s
29:19
nothing about it that’s that has a
29:20
material a material element yet you
29:25
believe that you’re not living up to
29:27
your potential everyone feels guilty
29:28
about that if someone accuses you of
29:30
that you feel bad about it so then I
29:32
might say well you also live not as if
29:34
you confront the world of things but as
29:35
if you confront a world of possibility
29:37
and you hold each other accountable that
29:39
way because I could say well you’re not
29:41
making all the use of the possibility
29:44
that’s presented to you because you’re
29:45
not living problem you’re not living
29:46
honestly you’re not aiming high enough
29:49
you’re not making everything of that
29:50
potential that might be made so what’s
29:53
that potential well in religious stories
29:55
that potential and you see this in the
29:57
first story in Genesis is that potential
30:00
is what God creates order out of at the
30:02
beginning of time that’s the idea that’s
30:04
expressed in that book is that there’s a
30:06
potential whatever that is and that
30:09
something acts on it to bring it into
30:12
reality there’s a deeper idea in there
30:14
to which which is a profound idea which
30:16
is that the potential the actuality that
30:19
you bring out of potential with truth is
30:23
good and so there’s an ethical element
30:26
to the story as well and I actually
30:27
think that that’s that’s a great truth I
30:30
do believe that’s the case that the
30:31
reality you bring out of potential with
30:33
truth is good and I think that’s one of
30:36
the most that’s one of the most profound
30:38
discoveries of humanity the ability to
30:41
articulate that idea was articulated in
30:44
the first chapter in Genesis it’s a
30:45
brilliant idea that’s associated with
30:47
the idea that human beings are made in
30:50
the image of God because God is that
30:53
which calls reality into being out of
30:56
potential but each of us do that as well
30:58
in a small way from that seems to me to
31:00
just be true of course all things that
31:02
are in the
31:03
fest world will once unmanifest right
31:05
and many of the things that are
31:06
unmanifest now will become manifest and
31:08
we could choose that to some degree we
31:10
have agency well we seem to yeah we do
31:14
yeah well you know if I treat you like
31:16
you don’t have agency you don’t like it
31:18
it’s not the grounds for a for a
31:20
satisfactory long-term relationship
31:23
while we’re in the Old Testament I want
31:24
to ask you something custom in the book
31:25
of Job that seems right up your alley I
31:27
looked at this book I can’t remember who
31:28
wrote anymore you may even know aspects
31:30
oh you will it was a book of engravings
31:32
from the book of Job by the British
31:34
writer and poet William Blake Blake had
31:37
done this series of engravings based on
31:40
the trials and tests that job went
31:42
through in this in these series of
31:44
engravings Yahweh and Yahweh and Joe are
31:51
depicted as a sort of identical you know
31:53
they’re ones in a celestial realm ones
31:55
in the terrestrial realm at the
31:57
beginning of the image but job and his
31:59
family depicted in front of the tree of
32:02
life the instruments hang in the trees
32:03
the animals are sleeping by the end of
32:06
the image after these various trials you
32:08
know that after Joe has been tested this
32:10
and we will to assume I suppose that
32:12
there’s been this journey of self
32:13
catalyst realization we have through
32:16
these trials the the instruments are
32:18
being played the animals are awake you
32:21
know and there’s a sort of bright future
32:22
in this sense of astronomical stuff ie
32:24
the positioning of the Sun unknown is
32:26
somehow meant to be significant also and
32:27
the person that wrote this book is a
32:28
Jungian now the thing that struck me
32:30
deep deep deep and I’ve been struggling
32:32
with it ever since is there’s a moment
32:35
where Yahweh shows the behemoth and the
32:38
Leviathan to jove and he says these i
32:41
made as i made thee right and then in
32:44
this Jungian analysis of these
32:45
engravings the writer says that the that
32:49
God requires of us that we be good that
32:53
goodness itself may exist that there is
32:56
a something beyond buts comparable to
33:00
neutrality in God the Creator the idea
33:03
of God the Creator the image of the
33:05
behemoth and the Leviathan in these
33:07
engravings is terrifying
33:09
the animalism of the behemoth its
33:11
musculature its rawness the Leviathan
33:15
sneaky dark deep terrifying thing this
33:18
idea of agency and god this relationship
33:22
between the unmanifest and the manifest
33:24
as achieved through an individual’s
33:26
relationship with truth and expression
33:29
seemed to me that it was saying
33:31
something that was right on the
33:32
precipice of my ability to understand
33:35
and sounded to convey okay so the first
33:37
thing I would say is well one of the
33:40
indications that you’re open is the way
33:42
that you phrased that question because
33:44
there’s like 30 things happening in that
33:45
question all at the same time one of the
33:47
things that creative people do is they
33:49
throw out like images because your your
33:52
your question was full of images there’s
33:54
you’re trying to map territory that you
33:56
don’t understand you say here’s an image
33:57
and here’s an image and here’s an image
33:59
and here’s an image and there’s
34:00
something uniting all of those but I
34:01
don’t know what it is it’s like an
34:03
artist’s do by the way and so that’s a
34:05
preliminary mapping of unexplored
34:07
territory and so we could take that
34:09
apart a little bit I mean one of the
34:10
things so job is objecting to his
34:13
treatment because of course god has a
34:15
bet with the devil basically that he can
34:17
take job down and make him curse fate he
34:19
basically bets the devil that he can
34:21
turn Jobe into Cain and God says no no
34:25
you God says no you the devil bets God
34:28
that he can turned Joel indicate by
34:30
tormenting us and God says nose jobs a
34:33
good man no matter what you do to him he
34:34
won’t lose faith in being that’s
34:36
essentially the back and you think well
34:38
that’s a hell of a thing for God to do
34:40
but then and Joe objects to go on to
34:42
some degree and so he’s got his reasons
34:44
man I mean because everything’s taken
34:46
away from him and God says I made these
34:49
things the Leviathan so that’s like the
34:51
terrible element of nature and I made
34:54
the Bayeux moth and maybe you could say
34:55
that’s the terrible element of society
34:57
it’s like how dare you question me and
34:59
that’s a perfectly reasonable objection
35:01
that’s like really you’re gonna doesn’t
35:03
matter what happens you’re gonna
35:04
question God really well so god objects
35:08
to that then and then you you you you
35:11
will although Joe Young believed that
35:13
Jonah actually had the moral upper hand
35:15
in that description because God behaved
35:17
rather reprehensibly and having a bet
35:18
with the devil I mean you wrote a book
35:20
called answer to job which is very much
35:22
worth reading it’s it’s quite a profound
35:24
piece of work but then you also woven
35:26
into the question this idea
35:28
the ethical requirement to be good yes
35:31
there’s something in that that’s
35:33
unutterably deep because this is this is
35:36
right at the limit of my ability to
35:37
understand things too so it’s
35:39
speculative beyond belief but it seems
35:41
to me that we are thrown challenges and
35:45
that there that and that in some sense
35:48
those are best construed as tests of our
35:50
ethical ability so what Jung thought his
35:53
idea was something like this that at the
35:56
beginning of time people were
35:57
unconscious and that consciousness
35:59
emerged with all of its catastrophes
36:01
consciousness of death for example and
36:04
one way out of the burden of
36:07
consciousness was to return to
36:08
unconsciousness you can do that with
36:10
alcohol you can do that by being
36:12
dependent you can do that by failing to
36:14
grow up you refuse the burden of
36:16
consciousness by becoming unconscious
36:18
again but there’s another way forward
36:20
which is to become even more conscious
36:22
so the idea would be a little bit of
36:25
consciousness is like an illness but if
36:27
you can expand that consciousness
36:29
upwards enough then it stops something
36:31
it starts to become something that it’s
36:33
all that is its own cure and that partly
36:36
what your goal is while you suffer
36:39
through life is to heighten your
36:40
consciousness to the point where
36:42
everything gets integrated enough so
36:44
that that’s proper medication for the
36:46
disease of self-consciousness and you
36:48
believe that that was really the that
36:51
was one of the ideas that ran through
36:53
the entire well the entire structure of
36:55
judeo-christianity although not it
36:57
wouldn’t be limited to
36:58
judeo-christianity so it’s it’s more
37:01
consciousness rather than less it’s more
37:03
attention and I I think I think there’s
37:06
something to that and some of that see
37:08
the other thing you see in psychotherapy
37:09
for example is that when you’re trying
37:12
to lead people forward out of the
37:14
darkness let’s say out of anxiety and
37:17
depression and despair and and
37:18
resentment and bitterness and anger and
37:20
all of those things
37:21
catastrophic interactions with their
37:24
family is that you get them to stop
37:27
avoiding confronting the terrible things
37:30
that are in front of them right so
37:32
basically what you do instead of saying
37:33
to them you know those terrible things
37:35
that are happening just ignore those and
37:37
and find some peace right get your mind
37:40
away from it that isn’t what you say
37:41
you say turn around and look at them
37:43
even more than you’ve been looking at
them there’s a very paradoxical advice
but of all the things that have been
proven to aid people’s recovery and
movement towards mental health that’s
like at the top of the list
voluntary confrontation with what you
are afraid of or or what you despise

even for that matter and so Jung had an
axiom that he derived from the alchemist
which was in sterk willingness infinite
or which meant roughly meant that which
you most need will be found where you
least want to look
which is well yeah
well that’s he that was also his
explanation for why people weren’t
enlightened because you think well the
California approached enlightenment to
speak you know kind of satirically is
follow your bliss
it’s like well that’s
easy if that was the case everyone would
be enlightened but the union approaches
no no you do what’s meaningful and pay
attention follow the truth and it will
take you to the worst place you can
imagine and then maybe there’s some
chance for enlightenment

Campbell somewhat revoked that I follow
your bliss mantra though I say wish he’d
said follow your blisters you know like
oh yeah the pain yeah all right yeah I
didn’t know you said cool isn’t it yeah
wicked put that on the scoreboard oh
that’s good well like a novel thing like
I’ve been thrown because you’ve said
that I could summon you didn’t know it’s
39:05
unraveled my entire volton chow and now
39:08
I’ve reached for a bit of German
39:09
language to pull my way back in oh yeah
39:11
her nan Millfield he’ll help me out like
39:13
so like I’m reading this Moby Dick it
39:15
smashed my head up you know like and
39:17
like um when he says in there’s a toward
39:21
the end of the book I have when he’s
39:23
hanging out with Pip and stuffies and
39:25
he’s really losing it now but maybe he’s
39:27
finding it – there’s a bit where he
39:29
talked about will who is it that moves
39:32
this arm he says who is it that think
39:34
these thoughts if the mighty son has no
39:36
control over its movements what control
39:39
as Ahab over his thoughts you know he’s
39:41
talking about fate and destiny and these
39:43
ideas again seem to me very potent
39:46
powerful themes my vision he struggles
39:50
with a great whale right
39:52
yeah it’s the dragon of the abyss that’s
39:54
that’s moby-dick because it’s it’s the
39:56
hero against the dragon of the abyss
39:57
he’s obsessed with it right why should
40:00
be obsessed with it it’s what to be
40:02
obsessed with is the dragon of the abyss
40:04
that’s the oldest story of mankind is
40:06
that your proper obsession is the dragon
40:09
of the abyss that’s where the gold is
40:10
yes that’s where the gold is even though
40:13
that’s worth as our most terrifying also
40:15
a bloody tragic ending except that as
40:16
you take Ishmael as the protagonist in
40:18
which case Ishmael survives and I have
40:20
you know everyone died so I am but like
40:23
I so it’s a tragedy it’s a tragic
40:26
encounter with the dragon of chaos he’s
40:27
a failed hero figure outcomes he’s about
40:30
and these gates lost that limb and stuff
40:32
and I’m sure yes or symboi just like
40:34
Captain Hook and the crocodile here they
40:36
have to have you know I love it for me
40:38
it’s very exciting when I see these
40:39
patterns of perennialism and for me it
40:41
is exciting because this tree is
40:43
simplicity implicit in it is true for
40:46
now that thing we were talking about a
40:47
minute ago where we where I go excited
40:48
because to follow your blisters the feel
40:50
is going to say is like this says
40:51
there’s some sort of maxim I understand
40:53
in Buddhism is like let it burn let it
40:55
burn burn like tape away from me every
40:57
right and there’s the idea is also there
41:00
in Christianity so there’s an occult
41:02
interpretation there’s letters on
41:04
Christ’s cross INRI Jesus please that it
41:07
means Jesus Christ King of the Jews and
41:09
it was put there by the Romans but
41:10
there’s no cult interpretation in Latin
41:12
which I can’t reproduce but it means
41:15
through fire all things are renewed and
41:17
one of the one of the deepest ideas of
41:20
Christianity is that you should burn
41:22
everything off that’s part of you that
41:24
isn’t part of that thing that can die
41:26
and be reborn there’s all sorts of
41:28
baggage that you people say that there’s
41:29
baggage that you’re carrying everyone
41:31
knows that it’s dead wood it’s like that
41:32
has to burn off and that’s a lot of
41:34
touch way more of you than you think
41:36
who’s way more than you think whilst you
41:38
still haven’t said whoever not yet are
41:39
you believing God won’t keep gun
41:41
automatics I’m not one them type of
41:42
people yeah so that I’m like it seems to
41:48
me that you Revere truth and it seems to
41:52
me that you are interested in the truth
41:54
in Scripture and mythology then what
41:58
this leads me to is something we touched
42:00
upon briefly it’s about the role of
42:02
power and
42:04
the function of morality and ethics and
42:07
and and and green bead simpler ideas it
42:11
will terms if not ideas such as
42:12
compassion and goodness so when like you
42:16
know it’s interesting to me that you’ve
42:17
written sort of an access abort or
42:19
self-help type book that you know clean
42:20
your room stand up straight stick your
42:22
shoulders back stuff that you know like
42:23
I would not query the only thing that I
42:26
feel like I would like to ask you about
42:28
because my I don’t know if I even have a
42:30
constituency but the people I finally
42:32
you know I found myself talking a lot
42:33
Muslim people young women self harming
42:37
eating disorders these kind of you know
42:39
your clinical psychology so I mention
42:40
you have more access to that kind of
42:42
information and those kind of
42:43
experiences than I do I have this strong
42:46
feeling that I am supposed to make
42:48
myself available for the vulnerable for
42:51
the powerless and for the voiceless so
42:54
that’s a fine idea this is the one is
42:56
how do you do it
42:57
how do we do what to do a huge bloody
42:58
question sometimes they don’t want me
43:00
interfering in their lives is that
43:01
majority at the time right certainly is
43:04
that well there’s an there’s a maximum
43:06
that’s often applied by people who work
43:08
in old-age homes which is never do
43:10
anything for the residents that they can
43:12
do themselves I can’t steal their own
43:14
money and that’s the best sleeping buddy
43:25
so isn’t it so it’s hard like the thing
43:28
about the thing about compassion is it’s
43:30
not sufficient to produce solutions
43:32
compassion is an unbelievably useful
43:34
emotion if you’re dealing with six month
43:36
old infants what bow they’re always
43:38
right she’s there in our soul now but
43:40
like a it doesn’t work no but what about
43:46
I won’t want to say is like I know you
43:51
said all this thing about sort of good
43:52
that the one of the isn’t one of the
43:55
essential themes ideas about the Christ
43:58
myth being you know to burn away all
44:01
that cannot be reborn but bloody ill may
44:03
in the actual language all he bangs on
44:06
about is kindness kindness love love
44:08
kindness kindness love novel revelation
44:11
hmm not in revelation he’s a judge in
44:14
revelation what are you still you’re
44:15
still taking that is what’s the books
44:17
beyond the Gospels your students
44:18
as the word of Christ well I’m taking
44:21
them as part of the entire corpus of the
44:22
story I mean the reason that yon thought
44:24
revelation was appended to the Bible was
44:26
because the Christ in the Gospels was
44:28
aired Deus too much in a sense on the
44:31
side of mercy and not enough on the side
44:33
of judgment because here’s the
44:35
settlement is a technical there’s a
44:37
technical reason though it’s like
44:38
without one attachment oh Jesus well you
44:41
don’t have a choice
44:42
because if you have an ideal it’s a
44:44
judge like you have an ideal you and
44:46
there might be an ideal that you have of
44:48
you
44:48
it’s simultaneously your judge because
44:50
you fall short of it I understand this
44:53
cuz as funny enough I was talking to the
44:54
fellow that taught me meditation
44:56
yesterday Bob ruff so he’s a student of
44:58
the Maharishi you know that he said that
45:00
when my Rishi was asked what is the one
45:02
principle the one principle he didn’t
45:04
say kindness or compassion or anything
45:06
like that I said discernment right
45:08
discernment you know which part are we
45:10
gonna follow there is the tension going
45:11
yeah but judgment that’s why in
45:14
Revelation Christ divides the Damned
45:16
from the saved and most are damned its
45:19
discernment and and what that means in
45:21
some sense is that there’s a thousand
45:23
there’s a hundred thousand ways to do
45:24
things wrong and only one way to do them
45:26
right maybe the only five ways of doing
45:28
them right but you know that in your own
45:30
life is that the there’s an infinite
45:33
number of snares that you can tangle
45:35
yourself up in and to find that pathway
45:38
where everything is balanced that’s very
45:39
that requires continual discernment and
45:41
attention and so you you can’t have an
45:43
ideal without it being a judge and you
45:46
can’t you can’t live properly without
45:48
discernment but that doesn’t mean
45:50
compassion and compassion isn’t relevant
45:52
it doesn’t mean that at all I’ve got a
45:54
skew something that sort of occurs to me
45:56
see like I like you I found myself in
45:59
different types of controversial
46:00
situations various conflicts and maybe
46:03
it much of the time is because Albert
46:05
Maysles said tyranny is the deliberate
46:08
removal of nuance I didn’t even say that
46:11
that’s not a good phrase good share
46:13
isn’t it yeah that’s right but like the
46:15
thing right deliberate removal that’s
46:18
that’s what makes it different than
46:20
ignorance because ignorance there’s no
46:22
nuance in ignorance but it’s excusable
46:24
because you just don’t know anybody yeah
46:26
when it’s deliberate that’s a whole
46:27
different story I think very nice who
46:29
said that Alba Mays was filmmaker he
46:30
made like Grey Gardens he made that
46:32
ideas of documentary within very briefly
46:34
and he he made that Beatles movie when
46:37
the Beatles first came to the states he
46:38
made give me show us the Mazal maze was
46:40
probably like old guys now brilliant
46:41
documentarian approval he invented much
46:45
of the flying the wall verite style this
46:47
informed subsequent documentary
46:49
tyrannies the deliberate removal of
46:51
nuance are works of himself briefly
46:52
filming none other than President Donald
46:54
Trump before people but like one of the
46:56
things that I wanted to talk about was
46:59
um if I like this is a thing I don’t
47:02
like all of the I don’t like though I
47:04
agree and I feel I don’t know what you
47:06
feel that you know that one of the
47:08
neoliberalism abandoned its allegiance
47:11
to and left his politics has in a sense
47:13
abandoned the working class and I can
47:16
understand their rage and but the
47:19
feeling I personally have is when if I
47:22
sense that I’d said things and I’ve done
47:23
this so I know that I’ve offended women
47:26
which I you know when I was more when I
47:27
was a single person I was promiscuous
47:28
and I know that caused me conflagration
47:32
and conflict or when I’ve done things
47:34
like you know in a spirit a few mother
47:36
of had like a kickback
47:39
I’ve always felt bad if I feel like I’ve
47:42
offended people that I would I would
47:45
regard or sculture alia regarded as
47:47
vulnerable yeah so like around the like
47:50
I when we make the conversation about
47:53
the use of language tyranny and
47:55
oppression in free speech you know
47:56
obviously I agree with you but but I do
48:00
take from you know the gospel version of
48:03
Christ
48:04
the idea that kindness love we can’t you
48:09
know like we have to continue to find
48:11
resources for anger you know I won’t
48:13
we’ll continue to fail we must continue
48:14
to be loving so yeah what my question is
48:17
is if you you have found yourself in a
48:18
position where I kind of think some
48:20
people are using you to sort of say fuck
48:22
you women or fuck you transgender people
48:25
and for me I think I would want to go on
48:30
that’s not my bag like so well where do
48:33
you stand on that well I think I think
48:36
that first of all the most fundamental
48:39
part of the question which is this issue
48:41
about love and like one of the
48:46
things I’ve thought about a fair bit is
48:47
the meaning of the Sermon on the Mount
48:49
and as far as I can tell it’s it’s a
48:52
it’s basically a two part it’s two part
48:56
wisdom the first is that you should aim
48:59
at the highest good that you can imagine
49:00
and that would be a good that includes
49:03
everyone right so if I wanted what was
49:05
good for you say if I genuinely wanted
49:08
it I wanted in a way that was good for
49:10
you now I’m good in the long run and
49:12
good for you and your family in your
49:13
community and may be good for me too you
49:15
know we could conceive of that as the
49:17
desire and I think that’s a good
49:19
definition of love is that you actually
49:21
want the best you want the best possible
49:23
outcome and in the Gospels of course
49:25
that’s extended even to your enemies yes
49:27
right is that okay if we’re gonna have
49:29
things good let’s have it good enough
49:31
for even the people that set themselves
49:32
up against me because if the world was
49:34
running properly things would be good
49:36
for them too and that would be better
49:38
and it seems to me that that’s a very
49:40
good way of looking at things it’s a
49:41
difficult way of looking at things and
49:43
then the second part of the Sermon on
49:45
the Mount is something like having
49:48
established that as your aim which is no
49:50
easy thing by the way right because you
49:52
have to be pretty clear headed and
49:54
single-minded to actually want that to
49:56
be your aim then you can concentrate on
49:58
the day and you can try telling the
50:00
truth and you can alai so there’s truth
50:02
and love that are allied together truth
50:04
love and attention it’s something like
50:06
that that are all allied together with
50:09
regards to transgressing against the
50:11
vulnerable I don’t think that that is
50:14
what I’ve done I think that people have
50:16
claimed that but I don’t think there’s
50:17
any evidence for it I mean first of all
50:19
I know absolutely that I have brought
50:23
perhaps thousands of people maybe tens
50:27
of thousands of people but certainly
50:28
thousands of people away from
50:30
identification with the right because
50:32
they write me all the time and tell me
50:33
that I’ve received about 30,000 letters
50:36
specifically from people have been
50:38
watching my youtube videos since August
50:40
and 25,000 of them are so we’ve tried to
50:43
count are from people who said that they
50:45
were in very dark places and that their
50:47
lives are much better much oriented
50:50
towards truth and responsibility and
50:52
away from political ideology mostly on
50:55
the right right that they were attracted
50:56
on the right because I have more peace
50:58
like that right me then people who say
51:00
that I’ve say rescued them from the hell
51:02
holes of the radical left I think that’s
51:05
more of a historical accident some in
51:08
some in some why it’s than anything else
51:12
and but also with the transgender issue
51:14
more specifically I’ve received now at
51:16
least 40 letters from transgender people
51:19
and the only one of them was critical
51:21
and it wasn’t that critical the rest of
51:23
them all said we never signed up to be
51:26
poster boy of the year for the radical
51:28
left and it’s not-it’s been no picnic
51:31
believe me all that’s happened is that
51:33
our lives have become much more
51:34
difficult and I believe that and I don’t
51:37
see that I think one of the mistakes
51:38
that the radical left makes and this is
51:41
part and parcel of their flirtation with
51:43
identity politics is that they fall all
51:46
over themselves to believe that if a
51:48
person identifies as a minority then
51:51
they immediately have the right to speak
51:53
for all the people who are in that
51:54
minority and that’s a claim that I
51:56
reject completely I mean first of all
51:59
there is no transgender community it’s
52:01
not a community because the community is
52:03
constantly interacting and networking
52:05
and has a shared purpose and all that
52:07
transgender people are just as diverse
52:09
as any other people it’s like saying
52:11
well there’s there’s no real black
52:12
community there’s not homogeneous
52:14
political viewpoints across the black
52:16
population I said I agree to a point
52:19
that these taxonomy czar necessarily
52:21
externally imposed because how would
52:24
they be intrinsically experienced I
52:27
understand that but also it seems to me
52:30
that there is a thing called the
52:32
experience of being an african-american
52:34
and you can put into that high prison
52:37
populations for young males lack of
52:40
educational opportunity or work
52:42
opportunity that they has available for
52:45
that so while community may be an
52:49
incorrect term literally there is a
52:53
there was a strata that seemed to be
52:55
underserved and another concern I would
52:56
have about some of the war the
52:58
repurposing you know as far as far as we
53:01
know so far of much of your oratory and
53:05
online work seems to me that it supports
53:09
the powerful is a poor
53:11
hegemony I would I don’t agree that
53:13
things are as simple as white men are in
53:15
position pattern let you know though
53:16
that you know like but I’m only
53:18
interested in who is able to affect
53:20
change who is able to influence who can
53:23
you not attack in public what is
53:25
positive like who is being controlled
53:26
that’s what interests me so like in a
53:29
transnational corporations economic
53:31
elites you know less of an how are they
53:33
served by what I say or by what are you
53:36
say ok so yes inequality problem oh yes
53:43
you’re saying it’s natural which clearly
53:45
well it’s not you cannot lay it at the
53:47
feet of capitalism that’s absolutely
53:48
clear that and the fact that it’s now a
53:50
Yelp in those I what’s that capitalism
53:54
doesn’t help they sent me like you know
53:55
Marx’s critique well I understand better
53:57
it’ll irk is that capitalism is built on
53:59
limitless growth from finite from finite
54:02
resources and also Kapil ISM will always
54:05
always be redirected and criminally
54:08
misused and under this of the economics
54:10
of our time it’s up for me is
54:12
demonstrably I know so if there are
54:13
people say I know people are richer now
54:15
than ever
54:16
but like you know staying in LA for a
54:18
while and there’s ninety thousand
54:19
homeless people and the greater LA area
54:21
it seems like some sort of like the
54:23
apocalypse is creeping in people are
54:25
richer than they ever have been but the
54:27
extreme extremes of inequality or hi to
54:29
hmm and there’s some evidence that
54:31
there’s some evidence well here’s an
54:33
example of how these things might work
54:34
so imagine that people that people are
54:37
getting richer there’s absolutely no
54:38
doubt about that but here’s here like
54:40
we’ve got more stuff even though I’m
54:42
sure you’d agree there are V that’s
54:43
what’s diving that’s good obesity is a
54:45
bigger problem in the world now than
54:47
starvation right that’s a big deal
54:48
that’s a big plus but here in a way it
54:51
still implies that people are being
54:52
underserved by the seat by their
54:54
operating systems still inferred
54:58
inequality also oh yes well well first
55:01
of all there’s no doubt that any social
55:03
system has a tyrannical and arbitrary
55:06
aspect I mean that’s an archetypal
55:08
training right any of course even though
55:11
even well-functioning systems have a
55:12
tyrannical aspect Department not mostly
55:16
or at least merely what Native Americans
55:19
who you’re down with not Native America
55:22
native Canadians that the quak quak yeah
55:25
let them realize like how’s their social
55:28
system set up oh it’s a catastrophe
55:30
go on oh well I mean it’s a catastrophe
55:33
for all sorts of reasons I mean some of
55:35
it
55:35
yeah it is it is it’s the situation is
55:38
very catastrophic what he might be
55:39
because well the reserve system was set
55:41
up in Canada and it had a possibility of
55:43
working when there was a possibility
55:46
that small communities could work
55:47
economically but small communities don’t
55:50
work economically anymore like if you go
55:52
through Saskatchewan for example a
55:54
central province in Canada in the 1960s
55:57
there were thousands and thousands of
55:58
small towns mostly Caucasian that is
56:01
because if their dance capitalism no no
56:03
it’s not it’s it’s deeper than that it’s
56:05
the same prop well here’s it might be
56:07
deeper than it but in its current form
56:09
it is company because I would agree that
56:10
what is capitalism a manifestation of
56:12
greed it’s the same thing the same thing
56:17
has happened all over the world like
56:18
urbanization is taking place in a
56:20
tremendously rapid rate it doesn’t
56:22
matter what the culture is or the form
56:23
of government so you think that the
56:25
politics is happening at a lower level
56:27
the phenomenology that’s weathered is
56:30
where the significant is Hattie’s is a
56:32
bigger time and within it political
56:34
systems are slowing about but that
56:36
doesn’t mean that’s man all the ones we
56:37
have in search of fairer more just
56:40
better ones particularly if they are
56:42
empirically not working come up with a
56:43
way to reliably flatten inequality that
56:49
would be a good thing but the empirical
56:51
evidence suggests so there’s a bunch of
56:53
things it suggests first of all if you
56:55
look at at the attempts to alleviate
56:58
inequality over the last 200 years
57:02
whether there were left-wing governments
57:04
in power or right-wing governments and
57:06
now made absolutely no difference
57:07
whatsoever to the degree of inequality
57:09
the only things that have been reliably
57:12
demonstrated to flatten out inequality
57:14
are catastrophes wars revolutions
57:17
epidemics there’s one other war
57:20
revolution epidemics well it’s gonna be
57:23
some kind of postman yeah that’s right
57:25
it’s another Horseman I can’t remember
57:27
which it is but but at a price of the
57:29
price of radical redistribution seems to
57:33
say yeah
57:35
yeah there and no one has come up with
57:36
you think that’s because of health and
57:37
our functions because like you know in
57:40
an unequal system whilst there are many
57:43
people that are suffering there are some
57:44
people that are benefiting I’m in a tier
57:46
that benefit yes from the current
57:48
economic situation I Drive nice car you
57:51
have nice house I go where I want
57:53
well let’s look at that for a minute
57:54
like if you think about how that
57:56
happened in your life I bet I can tell
57:57
you how it happened go on well I mean
57:59
this isn’t a personal account but
58:01
Bennett Bay you had otherwise I’m not
58:03
interested it’s that’s in one dimension
58:05
right hi success but because you were
58:08
successful not to mention all sorts of
58:09
opportunities came your way like my
58:11
suspicions are that where you’re sitting
58:13
now you have more opportunities than you
58:15
can deal with mmm is that correct yeah
58:18
yeah opportunity right exactly well
58:20
there see this is part of what seems to
58:22
drive inequality is that as you get
58:25
successful the opportunities that come
58:28
your way start to multiply and they
58:29
don’t multiply linearly they multiply
58:31
exponentially and so when you start
58:33
moving up you start moving up faster and
58:35
faster and faster and faster and then
58:36
you’ll hit a point where you have so
58:38
many opportunities that you don’t even
58:39
know what to do with it and so it’s a
58:41
nonlinear improvement but the the
58:43
downside of that is and you might have
58:46
had periods in your life where that were
58:47
like this to where let’s say you start
58:50
to get depressed and then you start to
58:52
drink because you’re depressed and then
58:54
you start to isolate yourself because
58:55
you’re drinking and you’re depressed and
58:56
because you’re drunk and depressed and
58:58
your friends start to abandon you and
58:59
then you lose your job it’s like you’re
59:01
not going downhill in a straight line
59:03
you’re going downhill faster and faster
59:06
and faster till you fall off a cliff and
59:07
that seems to me how the world works is
59:09
like there’s a center point it’s
59:11
unstable things improve then they
59:13
improve exponentially and things fall
59:15
and then they fall off exponentially and
59:17
that seems to be what’s driving
59:18
inequality you start to succeed and the
59:21
probability that you’ll continue to
59:23
succeed starts to expand hmm and so and
59:25
we don’t know how to control that and
59:27
well here here’s some other examples of
59:29
it though because I said you couldn’t
59:30
lay it at the feet of capitalism the
59:32
same thing happens to cities a small
59:34
proportion of the cities get all the
59:35
people so some cities grow like mad and
59:38
others fail catastrophically like like
59:40
Detroit it it it applies to the mass of
59:43
stars so there’s a very few stars in the
59:46
in the Milky Way that have
59:48
most of the matter so it applies to the
59:51
height of trees in the in the jungle
59:52
right and you think if things are
59:54
applicable in cosmology and in biology
59:58
the way that they are their application
60:02
politically and sociologically becomes
60:04
less relevant because you see these
60:06
phenomena as being broader then media
60:09
don’t human interaction I know you think
60:11
it’s less relevant I just see I don’t
60:14
think the left wingers are pessimistic
60:18
enough about the problem
60:19
they say inequalities of problem it see
60:21
how you have equality as a problem like
60:23
it’s it’s a terrible problem but then
60:25
they say well it’s probably a function
60:27
of our political and economic systems
60:29
and we could fix those it’s like no it’s
60:31
not a function of our political and
60:32
economic systems or if it is it’s at
60:34
such a deep level that we don’t know
60:35
what drives it and we certainly don’t
60:37
know how to control it like so but does
60:39
that not mean Jordan that would you then
60:41
reject any attempt to alter systems in
60:43
favor of fairness because it seems to me
60:46
that the focus is on like and as it
60:48
would be for a clinical psychologist
60:49
individual change now part of my
60:51
personal experiences without individual
60:53
change social change is sort of
60:55
irrelevant and many great gurus would
60:58
say yes because because I am concerned
61:02
with inequalities and with social
61:04
instability and I thought about it for a
61:06
long time I knew that the left-wing
61:07
approaches tended to fail
61:09
catastrophically and the right wing of
61:11
course isn’t particularly concerned with
61:12
inequality so that’s the left wing fails
61:14
and the right wing don’t care yeah
61:16
that’s right we need today I don’t see
61:18
the danger sufficiently and the right
61:20
wing also tends to think that the spoils
61:23
go to who deserves them yeah that’s kind
61:26
of true but it’s not completely true so
61:29
that’s that’s part of that yeah because
61:30
we’re not all because of course and what
61:32
I like from a leftist perspective would
61:34
be that we’re not starting with from a
61:37
level playing field well in the system
61:39
isn’t perfect at selecting and this is
61:40
why I think a spiritual solution but as
61:43
something that is beneath or beyond
61:45
material is the only way that true
61:47
progress is likely to be achieved I was
61:49
thinking of this something that you said
61:50
before about when we were talking
61:52
briefly about kindness and compassion
61:54
and it occurs to me and this program
61:55
will show very simplistic but the
61:58
heroism itself by which I mean sacrifice
62:01
the willingness to sacrifice yourself
62:03
for a greater idea what excites me about
62:06
that idea and I believe why the
62:07
phenomena is so loaded is if someone is
62:09
willing to die for something it’s that
62:11
they believe it’s bigger than them in
62:13
fact that themself their self is not the
62:15
truest thing that there is something
62:17
greater if I will give my life for
62:19
another person it’s almost an
62:20
acknowledgment of oneness the temporal
62:23
nurse of the individuate itself and we
62:26
all work so hard to achieve
62:27
individuation and so much of your work
62:29
the clinical psychology of guiding
62:30
people towards it but for me it’s just a
62:33
temporary resting place because having
62:36
had the kind of experiences of personal
62:38
humiliation annihilation success failure
62:40
for the decimation you know all of these
62:43
things that what I’ve been led to and
62:45
what I continue to struggle with is how
62:47
do how do I serve how am I have service
62:51
how do I help people that is the
62:54
solution to the problem it’s like I
62:55
don’t think the solution to the problem
62:57
of inequality is sociological I think
62:59
it’s psychological I mean partly what I
63:01
try because it’s closer to essence
63:03
because it’s more essential or because a
63:06
society has to be a reflection of
63:08
individual psyches or collective psyches
63:10
why is a psychological the temptation
63:13
the temptation towards resentment and
63:16
destruction that’s associated with
63:18
sociological approaches to inequality is
63:21
too great and that as a consequence
63:23
those those movements tend inexorably to
63:26
become corrupt and destructive because I
63:29
think Orwell put his finger on it when
63:31
he said that middle class socialists
63:33
don’t like the poor they just hate the
63:35
rich and that hatred I think that hatred
63:38
gets the upper hand in sociological
63:40
movements I think that the best approach
63:43
to ameliorating inequalities to
63:45
strengthen the individual I mean that’s
63:47
and that’s what I’ve concentrated on
63:49
doing what we have this program the self
63:51
authoring suite and there’s a component
63:54
of that that helps people write an
63:55
autobiography and another component that
63:57
helps them write an analysis of their
63:59
personality and another component that
64:01
helps them write out a plan for the
64:02
future and we’ve used that we’ve studied
64:05
the effect of having people write out a
64:07
detailed plan for their future and it’s
64:09
a proper plan it’s like okay look you
64:11
you get to have what you want three to
64:13
five years down the road you
64:14
to have the friends you want you get to
64:16
have the family you want you get to have
64:17
the career you want the education you
64:19
get you get to take care of yourself
64:21
properly
64:21
you get to withstand the temptations of
64:25
drug and alcohol abuse and other sorts
64:26
of impulsive pleasures you get to make
64:28
productive and meaningful use of your
64:30
time okay what does that look like for
64:32
you write it out what does it look like
64:35
just you need a vision and then you need
64:37
another vision of how terrible things
64:38
could be if you let all your bad habits
64:40
get the upper hand and we’ve had people
64:42
do that in an experimental situation and
64:44
mostly they were college students and
64:46
the consequences of that there were two
64:48
consequences one was general which was
64:52
that University students were about 30%
64:55
more likely to stay in University and
64:56
got grades there were about 25% better
64:59
this is a walloping effect but even more
65:01
interestingly and this is the coolest
65:03
thing I think that we ever discovered us
65:05
in our psychological research we did
65:08
this research in Holland at the at the
65:13
Erasmus University in Rotterdam at the
65:14
Rotterdam School of Management and we
65:16
ran business students through the future
65:19
authoring program for multiple years so
65:21
several thousands of them and we
65:23
stratified them by gender and ethnicity
65:26
pretty a pretty rough cut men women and
65:29
then Dutch nationals and non-western
65:32
ethnic minorities okay and so that the
65:35
performance was like this the Dutch
65:36
women were at the top then the Dutch man
65:39
then then the non-western ethnic
65:43
minority women then the non-western
65:45
ethnic minority men and they were behind
65:47
the Dutch women bye bye bye oh they they
65:51
should about an 80 percent decrement in
65:53
performance really quite catastrophic
65:55
two years after they did the future
65:57
authoring program they were ahead of the
65:58
Dutch women it just blew us away because
66:01
it was and it was a perfect indication
66:03
of the fact that you can use a
66:05
psychological intervention to ameliorate
66:07
what looks like a sociological problem
66:09
and so I think the right see I think the
66:12
right solution and this is what I’ve
66:14
been saying over and over in my my
66:16
lectures and in this book 12 rules for
66:17
life and this is why I think it’s become
66:20
so popular I said look you’re right you
66:22
were right you said earlier in the last
66:25
question
66:26
well you can’t ignore the group
66:28
classification problem you know there’s
66:30
a black experience there’s a Latino
66:31
experience there’s a female experience
66:33
it’s like yeah that’s true but you have
66:36
to decide what level of analysis you’re
66:37
gonna make primary and I think the
66:40
primary level of analysis is the
66:42
individual and the psychological rather
66:44
than the group and the sociological and
66:46
I think if you put the individual level
66:48
first and then you alluded to that
66:49
because it was it was like an intuition
66:51
that you were bringing forward which was
66:53
your intuitionist being that the right
66:55
level of progress is made at the level
66:57
of the individual and I think that’s
66:59
true I hope that’s the only level where
67:01
I have personal authority as well right
67:04
and also personal responsibility because
67:07
the here’s the thing like here’s the
67:08
rule how about this don’t recommend any
67:12
changes that you wouldn’t suffer for if
67:16
they failed how’s that and that’s the
67:21
problem with large-scale political
67:22
action it’s like well here’s how we
67:23
should change things it’s like well they
67:25
changed them it’s well if it fails
67:27
doesn’t bother me it doesn’t hurt me I’m
67:29
not involved in it it’s like you should
67:32
be careful when you try to change things
67:34
to make sure you loose or for your own
67:35
stupid of course of course Jordan but
67:37
that also plays into the hands of
67:39
conservatism because you know when you
67:41
said like that left-wing change tends to
67:44
be sort of potentially destructive these
67:47
are of course these are not just
67:49
left-wing shit yes right-wing radicals
67:51
too and even not yeah there and also
67:53
there is sort of conventional politics
67:55
and the ecological impact that it has
67:57
the inequality which are like a whilst
67:59
you’re saying you continue to say that
68:01
the the problem of inequality is an
68:03
anthropological biological cause I’m a
68:06
logical musical problem it’s a really
68:08
deep problem it’s a deep problem and for
68:10
me whenever you get near a problem that
68:11
has that level of profundity or ubiquity
68:14
the solution can only be spiritually we
68:17
have to access the transcendent in some
68:19
way to look for solutions and although
68:21
that sounds a little airy-fairy believe
68:23
that why do you believe that I mean I’m
68:25
not disputing that but you obviously
68:27
believe ID playas
68:28
what what drove you to that conclusion
68:30
I’ve been driven to this conclusion by
68:32
the experiences of personal failure and
68:35
personal limitation by the failure of
68:37
individuation by the failure of my own
68:40
grandiosity
68:41
the failure of my own ego the failure of
68:44
Fame and power and money and sex and
68:47
drugs the the inability of them to reach
68:49
me in the belly of the beast deep deep
68:52
deep down whether Leviathan is this
68:54
these cures this alchemy was redundant
68:58
and what I have realized I think this
69:00
the spiritual journey for me the hero
69:03
turn in like you know I’m using
69:04
reference points in which you are an
69:06
expert and a professor is that that the
69:09
death of the smallest self and the
69:11
realization of the capital s self means
69:13
become a servant become a servant of
69:16
good use your abilities to generate the
69:19
maximum amount of love the maximum about
69:21
amount of kindness and compassion and to
69:24
be alert to where I can be of most use
69:27
now for me that can be incredibly
69:28
limited because I’m still a deep leave
69:30
it isto called narcissistic flawed
69:32
failing individual but what my focus is
69:35
what my intention is what I’m trying to
69:37
learn to become in this journey of
69:38
self-realization is a compassionate and
69:41
loving man and I was also said you added
69:43
something well you hadn’t useful to that
69:46
yeah useful you’re wrong usually the
69:48
finished well that’s it so the best
69:50
definition of Christian compassion that
69:52
I ever read was useful and generous hmm
69:55
right useful and generous mmm right and
70:00
so I would say the Conservatives in air
70:02
the Conservatives promote the useful end
70:05
of the distribution and liberals promote
70:07
the generous end but no lions need to be
70:10
brought together and I would say and
70:11
given that they yourself have said the
70:13
problem for example of hierarchies
70:15
exists on a far broader spectrum than
70:17
the political that these than the narrow
70:19
like when you were saying like on the
70:20
whole left-wing Democrat or Republican
70:22
governments or left-wing right-wing
70:24
governments have produced similar
70:27
immense ad it’s I’m not happy about this
70:30
no sad thing doesn’t it suggests also
70:32
Jordan that the range of solution that
70:34
we be offered is too limited yes I don’t
70:38
think it suggests that I think it in
70:40
Democrats yes and this is why I think
70:42
that the problem of inequality has to be
70:44
taken with more seriousness than it’s
70:45
being taken and the role of the
70:47
individual another obviously you would
70:48
focus on this is a clinical psychologist
70:50
is paramount because
70:52
because I kind of believe when I think
70:54
about sort of verse of a fluctuating
70:56
vivid grotesque right-wing phenomena
70:59
such as Donald Trump I don’t blame
71:01
people who vote for Donald Trump I
71:03
understand why people feel furious I
71:05
understand the emotion of anger and rage
71:08
and I suspect that all all that plays
71:12
out on the zoetrope of the material
71:13
realm is a reflection of the activity in
71:16
the psyche activity in the emotion how
71:18
could it be otherwise except for here of
71:19
course you say occurs in lobsters and
71:21
nature so that suggests it’s even more
71:23
profound the psyche is deeper than just
71:27
human right the psyche is all a
71:30
universal conscious and unconscious mind
71:32
so I suppose what I suppose what I’m
71:35
thinking is how what my interest is is
71:38
how come yes but let me ask you a
71:41
question go on what do you think that
71:43
you’ve done in the last year that’s good
71:44
they are mostly small things okay acts
71:48
of kindness I have a daughter you have a
71:51
good relationship with her so that seems
71:53
to be a good thing that’s been beautiful
71:54
that’s been sort of in fact that is
71:56
hugely significant my newfound ability
71:59
to live at what one might refer to as an
72:01
ordinary domestic life my willingness to
72:03
let go of other people’s perception of
72:05
me these things have all been hugely
72:06
significant and my sort of I would say
72:09
my dedication to sort of
72:11
self-improvement in areas that could
72:12
still be regarded as selfish is one
72:14
thing still an improvement I sort of
72:16
take exercised to look after myself from
72:17
that drug and alcohol free for like 15
72:19
years and it’s at this point that the
72:20
epiphanies are beginning to sort of
72:22
coalesce the things that I feel are
72:24
perhaps most important is to let go
72:27
self-centeredness when I when I conduct
72:28
myself and when I’m not continually
72:30
thinking what can I get when I don’t
72:32
look at the outside world as a resource
72:34
when I don’t think what can that person
72:35
give me what can they give me when I
72:36
think instead I have a chapter on that
72:38
and it’s called it says do what is
72:41
meaningful not what is expedient and to
72:44
to view the world as a place of
72:47
resources that can be delivered to you
72:49
it’s in some sense to be expedient is to
72:52
take the short term it’s to take the
72:54
approach of short-term gratification
72:55
something like that
72:57
yes self-centered is materialistic too
72:59
well it is materialistic but it’s also
73:01
it’s also it’s not optimal and it’s not
73:05
wise and there is
73:06
for that is is that it actually turns
73:08
out like if we’re gonna have it if we
73:09
had to continuing the relationship I
73:11
would want to try to do a little bit
73:13
more for you than you do for me and I
73:16
could do that even purely selfishly say
73:18
because if I did a little bit more for
73:20
you than you did for me you would want
73:21
to keep interacting with me how does
73:23
that all right so because me and you I
73:24
think get on relatively easy we’ve found
73:26
a frequency to communicate on but say
73:28
someone like the woman with high in
73:30
openness open openness is a good service
73:33
now what about the woman on Channel 4
73:35
News who seemed more agitated and stuff
73:38
like do like me so you’re actually
73:41
having a conversation we’re trying to
73:43
have a conversation that’s oriented
73:45
towards discovering some and you think
73:47
she has a sort of a series of linear or
73:49
not some FETs and she was just dropping
73:51
and regarded oh okay definitely that’s
73:53
exactly what happened except once there
73:56
was once
73:56
oh and you and you’ll be mean to me and
73:58
she was a bit like found it yeah yeah
74:00
well when I caught momenta there on her
74:01
ability to plebeians on the spot when
74:03
she said the shell is the wrong thing to
74:05
do you know yes yes no you are not good
74:10
they make you’re a clinical psychologist
74:12
but in this moment do you not feel or no
74:15
luck it’s a question that could be you
74:16
could easily pose to me feel like right
74:18
I just want this but that’s the person
74:20
that’s been in front of you that’s the
74:22
world in that moment I don’t think you
74:23
were hostile to that person I may say
74:25
but like do you not feel like in in that
74:27
moment it would be of value and of
74:30
service to nurture that person yeah yes
74:33
well I had a conversation with a friend
74:35
of mine very smart friend of mine his
74:38
name is Wayne maretskiy he’s quite the
74:41
he’s quite the character wing but he
74:43
what he watched and I’ve had people
74:45
watch what I’ve been doing for the last
74:46
18 months lots of people and they report
74:49
on what they think about what I’m doing
74:51
and so I asked Wayne about the interview
74:52
and you know he was happy about the fact
74:55
that I conducted myself with a certain
74:57
amount of calm and detachment and but he
75:00
did say something very interesting there
75:01
was this there was the kind of a
75:03
culmination of that interview was where
75:05
Kathy was challenging me about my right
75:08
to say things that might offend someone
75:10
and I said well I said essentially look
75:12
you’ve based your whole career and this
75:14
interview on that right
75:16
you know and congratulations to you
75:18
that’s what you should be doing
75:19
then she was taken aback by that and I
75:22
said gotcha and she she knows she was
75:26
sort of flustered and she said well yeah
75:27
you did and Wayne said you know you
75:30
could have instead of saying gotcha at
75:32
that point you could have taken the
75:34
opportunity there to to expand on that
75:38
opening and to try to have Jesse Unruh
75:40
say shit down there is Lorna the lane
75:44
for not doing that you know Christian
75:46
thing yeah yeah in that moment so I
75:49
thought and I thought about that a lot I
75:51
thought well that I think there were
75:53
limitations in the format like by that
75:56
time I were about 25 minutes into the
75:58
interview you know so it was coming it
76:00
was coming close to an end and you know
76:01
sometimes being funny cuz I think it was
76:04
reasonably funny it was reasonably witty
76:06
sometimes that’s okay too
76:07
well that’s why comedians are useful yes
76:10
yes say funny things but it’s just in
76:13
yeah hopefully they can get away with it
76:17
right and I think that that’s often an
76:20
extremely effective conversational
76:23
maneuver because he actually as a matter
76:24
of fact you said something I come into
76:25
this and nothing I’m just frying a few
76:27
things at you now because you know the
76:29
reason I do this because I start doing a
76:30
good degree at a university equals so s
76:32
called religion in global politics and
76:33
one of the main things they taught
76:34
taught me there are one of the things
76:36
I’ve intrigued me is the first thing I
76:37
show you is this bit of bourgeois
76:39
there’s barely literature by bourgeois
76:40
where some story can remember it called
76:42
the Chinese emperor system of taxonomy
76:44
we’re a show and the stories of the
76:46
house I love that game and I’m liking
76:48
itself and part of the courses they talk
76:50
about who gets to determine what words
76:52
like natural or power you know who gets
76:55
to determine how those terms are
76:56
allocated I think that who gets to
76:58
determine what’s deemed religious well
77:01
daddy Michael ejected to Bill c16
77:03
because I wasn’t going to let the
77:05
radical leftist decide the linguistic
77:07
playing ground and that’s what they were
77:09
trying to do you see there their
77:10
rationale was we’re on the side of
77:12
transgender people I thought no you’re
77:14
not you’re trying to control the
77:15
linguistic territory in a sense look
77:17
this is where this conversation is a
77:20
cure the parallels the conversation I
77:22
had with Sam Harris but if Sam Harris
77:24
what I found myself saying is but why so
77:27
worried about this one particular issue
77:30
of
77:31
jealousness or extremism when it seems
77:34
that power is actually situated
77:36
elsewhere it seems to me that here I’m
77:38
last you know in that instance I suppose
77:40
because that was the instance that came
77:42
you away you you as you term it the
77:44
radical left you know imposition of
77:46
certain rules around language that you
77:47
that was the reason for me but you have
77:51
also continued to furrow or plow that
77:53
furrow haven’t you have consider you
77:54
down a sort of a line that seems like
77:56
teleologically sensible with what
77:59
happened there like it continues to
78:01
who’s like you know I know exactly like
78:03
I agreed with your analysis of the word
78:04
proverb provocateur if you don’t you
78:06
know as a person is provoked if they’re
78:07
not provoked you’re not a provocateur so
78:09
it’s a difficult label to apply to
78:11
anybody but it seems to me that you know
78:14
when something when people say you know
78:16
young males are particularly sort of
78:19
attracted to your work I do see that
78:22
this is a time where males need guidance
78:26
and like where there isn’t the kind of
78:28
elders our elders customs initiations
78:32
routes to masculinity or in short supply
78:35
I can see that there’s a real value in
78:38
that but I also feel that in this time
78:41
of social contention I’d any politics
78:44
being part of it
78:45
and conflict that ideas that promote
78:49
unity and the emulation of those kind of
78:54
boundaries or something would be
78:56
particularly and especially valuable you
78:59
know again but I think the right way to
79:00
do that is to concentrate on the
79:02
individual and so well so let me answer
79:04
that in two ways the first thing the
79:06
first issue is that it isn’t
79:08
self-evident that the reason that my
79:12
what I’ve been talking about has been
79:14
attractive to young men that might be
79:17
like a fluke and it might be a fluke
79:20
because almost everybody who watches
79:22
YouTube is male yeah so like if I look
79:25
at my YouTube audience it’s 80% male but
79:27
that’s true of YouTube audiences in
79:29
general so it’s just a typical you well
79:31
right right and so what’s how about you
79:33
intuition well because I already did say
79:36
me something I don’t make complicated
79:37
than that but I do know that since my
79:39
book has come out I’ve been watching the
79:42
demographics of my
79:44
of my public audience that more and more
79:46
and more women are coming out so it’s
79:48
now to about 65 35 from 80/20 and more
79:52
and more older people are coming out to
79:53
so I think a fair bit of it was a
79:55
consequence of the fact that most of my
79:58
exposure and was to the YouTube audience
80:01
which happens to be mostly men now I do
80:04
also think that there is a particular
80:08
crisis with regards to what might be
80:10
described as proper pathways to
80:12
masculinity I also think that’s at play
80:14
so I think there’s two factors but I
80:16
also I don’t think that Kathy Newman
80:19
kind of went after me about this you
80:20
know she said well you know if you’re
80:21
directing your message towards young men
80:23
which I wasn’t but assuming that’s the
80:26
case isn’t that divisive and I would say
80:28
well I don’t think it is divisive
80:30
because first of all the masculine in
80:32
women also needs to be developed it’s
80:35
very very important and the people who
80:37
are the enemies of the masculine in men
80:39
are also the enemies of the masculine
80:41
and women so if you over protect your
80:43
sons let’s say you don’t want to you
80:45
don’t want to you want to you you over
80:49
protect them in part and and weaken them
80:51
because you’re afraid of their masculine
80:53
energy you’re going to do exactly the
80:54
same thing your daughter’s so that that
80:56
so that the even and that female a
80:58
female child would similarly be
81:00
disempowered so definitely because you
81:03
know the thing is and this is another
81:04
thing is that I am a psychometrician
81:06
that’s technically my my job and we
81:10
study Mitch it’s may our measurement
81:12
well and like it’s a truism of
81:14
psychometrics that men and women are
81:17
more the same than they are different
81:19
you know it’s funny because I’ve been
81:21
sort of positioned as someone who is
81:23
constantly on about the differences
81:25
between men and women but men and women
81:27
are more the same than they are
81:28
different and what that means is that
81:30
the development of masculinity and women
81:33
perhaps it’s not as important as the
81:35
development of masculinity and men but
81:37
it’s damn important it’s like it’s a
81:39
close second and so if people are
81:42
pushing down masculinity as a virtuous
81:45
mode of being then it has a detrimental
81:47
effect on both
81:50
but but you would say determinately
81:53
there and biologically that there is a
81:54
thing that is masculinity
81:56
and that thing masculinity is present in
81:58
both females and males definitely but I
82:01
think again one of the one of the
82:03
challenges that this argument or the
82:06
appears to be built around is a sort of
82:08
hierarchy around those trades
82:11
masculinity being synonymous for example
82:14
with power well here’s the thing I
82:15
wanted to bloody ask you
82:17
check this Axios it but I said it on a
82:18
YouTube video on my own the other day
82:20
and a 4c wonder if this stands up to
82:22
scrutiny
82:22
let’s give it a bit check this I said
82:25
like in Sweden they’re banning sexually
82:27
provocative advertising you know it’s
82:29
the kind of thing you hear a lot about
82:30
like the objectification of women I said
82:32
of course I support that because there’s
82:33
a male being subjected to lots of
82:35
sexualized images of women as to a
82:38
degree affected you know particularly
82:40
when I was younger my or the logical
82:42
conclusion of that was pornography right
82:44
yes that doesn’t really seem to be a
82:46
good thing it doesn’t seem to be a good
82:48
thing I don’t look at pornography
82:49
anymore like the pornography I think is
82:52
yeah very corrupting corrosive influence
82:54
or you know for me personally I want to
82:57
be involved if I said this check this I
82:59
go zone
82:59
I feel the use of the female in
83:03
advertising and commodification in
83:05
general is there is the perverted desire
83:10
to worship the feminine the negated and
83:14
neglected feminine has found its
83:17
expression through consumerism and
83:19
commerce because it is not being
83:21
properly honored socially what you made
83:26
up I would have to think that I’d have
83:29
to think about that a long time I would
83:30
have to think about that a long time
83:32
good idea that is an answer it
83:33
it’s it’s an idea worth we’re thinking
83:36
about for a while like if there are
83:38
sensual if we have essential yearnings
83:40
if we have like you know like eg if we
83:42
if the in a lie in if in indigenous
83:46
cultures we would have deities to
83:48
represent gender or certain energies
83:51
that are subtler than gender if there is
83:54
a sense that socially those energies are
83:56
not being expressed on it as you have
83:57
implied with your male or that ways
84:00
definitely the case so one of the things
84:01
that I’ve often thought about ideologies
84:03
is that they’re they’re like parasites
84:05
on religious structures and if you’re
84:07
thinking that the the movement of
84:09
feminine imagery up into the consumerist
84:11
world is an analog or is at least
84:14
impartial harsh part a consequence of
84:17
not having a symbolic place where that
84:19
attraction can be expressed I think
84:21
that’s probably right it was like it’s
84:23
like in the United States is that the
84:25
first family tends to be turned into
84:26
king and queen yeah because there’s no
84:28
place for that symbolic projection yeah
84:30
the template requires it yeah I heard
84:32
once an analysis of the Soviet Union
84:34
after the Revolution that it mimicked
84:37
the monarchic tyranny that preceded it
84:40
just in a different format right AC yeah
84:44
that there’s so certain images holy
84:46
trinity even right yes
84:47
Mao Marx Lenin amazing mark Stalin
84:51
depending on the Trinity
84:52
and some would argue that we know that
84:55
Christianity couldn’t take hold in Latin
84:57
America until they embrace the pantheon
84:59
ISM of the Saints and fountain the
85:00
figure of the Virgin until they’re like
85:03
they know that in certain cultures the
85:05
the Virgin had to be elevated because
85:07
there isn’t a place in the Father Son
85:09
Holy Ghost for the Divine Feminine you
85:12
know that’s a union idea yeah yeah
85:15
that’s an original idea of yours is that
85:18
the Trinity is missing a quartile and
85:20
sometimes that’s quartile is filled by
85:23
the figure of the devil and sometimes
85:24
it’s filled by the figure of the woman
85:25
so it’s like it’s like the houses in an
85:28
Harry Potter right there’s three good
85:30
houses and Slytherin this in the bottom
85:33
quadrant it’s a it’s a reflection of the
85:35
same kind of Mandela structure that’s
85:36
pretty cool it’s very cool very cool
85:39
have a place at the table for the
85:41
serpent you have another place hmm what
85:43
about apples and Sleeping Beauty right
85:45
in the Disney movies they don’t let in
85:47
that they don’t groan that’s right they
85:49
don’t invite her to the christening and
85:50
so their daughter ends up unconscious
85:52
they don’t let the terrible mother come
85:55
to the party so how it ends up
85:56
unconscious in our domestic normal
85:58
everyday cotillion lives what is the
86:01
terrible mother how does that feel
86:02
protection over protection don’t over
86:05
protect the baby lay and fall over a
86:07
little bit that’s right you do do the
86:08
least amount possible for your children
86:10
it’s something like that
86:11
that’s not neglect it’s nothing like
86:13
that it’s like the old age home adage
86:15
you know look I’ve seen this lots of
86:17
times with parents it’s like maybe you
86:19
have to get your kid dressed up to go
86:20
out well it takes a long time if you let
86:23
your kid do it you know and see a lot
86:25
faster just to do it it’s a lot faster
86:27
not to have them set the table it’s a
86:29
lot faster to do things for them
86:30
plus there’s there’s also and this is
86:33
part of the devouring mother archetype
86:35
it’s like if you’ve devoted your life to
86:37
a child perhaps more than you should
86:40
have
86:40
let’s say then it’s very difficult to
86:43
let the child go yeah what what’s there
86:45
left for you and so there’s this
86:47
terrible temptation to play well I’ll do
86:50
everything for you but you never leave
86:52
me and then for the child to say yeah
86:54
that’s right that’s exactly the right
86:56
face to make for that that’s a very
86:57
terrible thing and you see that again in
86:59
Disney’s Sleeping Beauty where
87:00
Maleficent has the heroic prints in the
87:03
dungeon it’s laughing at him right she’s
87:05
not gonna let him go until he’s ancient
87:06
and that’s and that’s a consequence
87:09
where else do we see the devouring
87:10
mother what some good pop cultural
87:12
examples of what doesn’t he movies all
87:14
the time I wake up in little in Little
87:17
Mermaid Ursula mother the devouring
87:20
mother shows up all the time she’s the
87:22
witch she’s the swamp dweller she’s the
87:25
she’s the Evil Queen in Snow White
87:27
what’s the counterpoint the fairy
87:29
godmother yeah fairy godmothers one yeah
87:31
that’s the positive feminine and that
87:33
happened that archetype manifests itself
87:35
all over the place as well the the fairy
87:37
godmother is a good one yeah and you see
87:39
in in Sleeping Beauty there’s three of
87:42
them three little fairies that take care
87:43
of the princess in the forest there
87:45
they’re the archetype of the positive
87:46
feminine so so you always see one of the
87:50
things that distinguishes a religious
87:52
viewpoint from an ideological viewpoint
87:54
is that there’s always a representation
87:56
of nature or the unknown always you need
87:59
one and Holy Ghost in Christianity is
88:04
not known well in Christianity I’d have
88:07
to think about that for a minute
88:10
party party it’s the Virgin Mother it’s
88:12
mostly positive representation in
88:14
Christianity so and that would be the
88:17
representation of the benevolence of
88:19
nature it’s something like that so
88:21
that’s the unknown but in a religious
88:24
representation you
88:25
have the positive and the positive the
88:28
negative aspect of the feminine that’s
88:30
also the unknown you have the positive
88:31
and negative aspect of them of the of
88:33
the state that’s the wise King and the
88:36
end that devouring King and you have the
88:38
positive and negative representation of
88:39
the individual and the reason it’s
88:42
religious in some sense it’s hard to
88:44
explain why in a very short period of
88:46
time but a religious viewpoint always
88:48
gives you a balanced viewpoint that’s
88:50
what makes it religious it’s like
88:51
there’s a positive element that’s
88:53
intensely positive but there’s the
88:55
negative counterpart and there’s a
88:56
positive so let me give you an example
89:00
here I can give you an example of how
89:03
this plays out there can typically the
89:06
frontier myth that settled the West was
89:08
essentially heroic individual positive
89:10
bringing the benefits of order and
89:14
culture positive to the desolate barren
89:17
wastelands of the West ok so it’s
89:19
positive individual positive culture
89:21
negative nature ok so that’s an ideology
89:25
but it’s a powerful story because it’s
89:26
true heroic individual bearer of culture
89:29
barren desolate wasteland it’s true but
89:32
one of the things that eventually
89:34
generated was a counter narrative and
89:36
not because it was only half the story
89:38
that counter narrative was the
89:39
environmental narrative which was
89:40
rapacious individual bringing pillaging
89:44
society into benevolent nature and they
89:47
had to recast the indigenous people that
89:49
lived on those land masses as savages
89:51
not entitled to the same rights yeah
89:54
wasn’t heroic individual and there were
89:56
two there were actually two competing
89:58
tendencies in in the Western mind one
90:00
was the noble savage so that was the
90:02
Roussel exactly and the other was
90:04
Dennison you know barbaric denizen of
90:07
the uninhabited land after only one hour
90:09
in annotations the romantic idea of the
90:11
noble savage became some sort of
90:13
whimsical new ancient thing and the
90:14
other one and the other one the Dennison
90:16
barbarian became justification for
90:19
genocide all right let me look wrap up
90:21
because I can feel the technological
90:22
angst in a variety of ways but dr.
90:26
droolin Pearson or professor Jordan
90:27
Pearson that they know how to big you up
90:29
enough with their with your prologue and
90:31
thank you your title thank you very much
90:33
I’ve really found it fascinating
90:35
have you enjoyed the conversation good
90:38
appreciated the invitation
90:47
you

3 Jokes That Will Take Control Of Any Situation

Very few people can control a conversation better than a comedian. They have arsenals of jokes that put rude people in their place and redirect the flow of conversation. Even when there isn’t a conflict, when a joke lands and everybody laughs – there is a period of space where you can redirect the conversation wherever you like.

In this video we are going to look at 3 specific types of jokes that Russell Brand uses to masterfully control a confrontation on MSNBC. We’re also going to see how you can use these same jokes to confidently steer conversation in your own life.