Republican Senator Lindsey Graham wanted Trump to win a second term, but he wasn’t persuaded at all by the so-called “evidence” that Rudy Giuliani presented to him. According to a new book by Bob Woodward, Graham likened the work done by Giuliani to that of a third grader, and those close to Graham who also looked at the material described it as “sloppy” and questioned whether any of it was even real. Farron Cousins explains what happened.
*This transcript was auto-generated. Please excuse any typos.According to Bob Woodward’s new book peril. Lindsey Graham was one of the individuals brought in to the white house on January 2nd. We’re Rudy Giuliani talked to everybody there about how the election was allegedly stolen. And Lindsey Graham, according to the book was pressing Rudy Giuliani. Give me names, right? Give us the evidence you say you’ve got all this evidence. Give it to us. I’m the chair of the Senate judiciary committee, at least for a couple more days, Rudy. So let’s get on this buddy. Give me what you got. Well, a couple days later, Rudy Giuliani came through and he gave Lindsey Graham a packet, a packet that Lindsey Graham passed over to Lee Holmes, who was then the, uh, lead attorney for the Senate judiciary committee. And homes described the work as shoddy homes. When, as far as to question whether or not the sources that Giuliana used were even real, if they even existed. And once Lindsay Graham got his hands on the packet and he looks through it, he likened the work to that of a third grader, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham basically said that Rudy Giuliani’s legal work here because this is what it was. He was setting up the legal challenges, uh, could have been done by a third grader because it was so, so bad. This is Rudy Giuliani folks. And again, all of this is according to Woodward’s new book, but this is Rudy Giuliani, right? This was a man on the cover of time magazine, following nine 11. This was America’s mayor, right? The guy who came close, I guess you would say to, you know, possibly being a president of the United States. This is the guy who just in 2006, went to bat for, uh, you know, the, the big opioid companies and won in court for them. And he had been reduced to basically, you know what? We can surmise from this information, making stuff up to make Donald Trump happy and let’s not get this wrong. Lindsay Graham wanted Donald Trump to win Lindsey. Graham was at the white house that day because he thought there was a chance they could overturn the election. Lindsey Graham didn’t just happen to stumble into the oval office and say, oh shoot, is there a meeting here? Oh, okay. Yeah, I’ll sit and listen. Why not? Right? No. He was invited there and he accepted the invitation because he thought there was a chance, but Giuliani was so fricking terrible at what he does. And he had no evidence at all that Lindsay Graham was like, wow, this could have been put together by an elementary school student. Rudy Giuliani has ruined his reputation. Rudy Giuliani ruined any chance of having a decent legacy all because he decided to throw his lot in with Donald Trump. That was a choice he made because at one point he believed he was going to be rewarded. And now Trump won’t even return his phone calls. Trump won’t help him pay his massive legal bills that continue to Mount Giuliani has been left out in the cold. Donald Trump could not care less about what happens to Rudy Giuliani and Lindsey Graham. Even though you didn’t go along with Giuliani’s plan here, you need to take note of that because you’ve also been a, a loyal lapdog to Donald Trump. And you need to realize that that loyalty is not a two way street, buddy. The second you are no longer useful to him or the second you are in need, you’re going to be cast out and you’re going to find yourself pretty lonely with the exception of course, of having Rudy Giuliani for company. Because Trump won’t talk to him either.
Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti discuss how three separate news organizations published the same erroneous claim about Rudy Giuliani last week, prompting corrections.
BREAKING: Trump’s lawyer just had a DELUSIONAL reaction to the bombshell Supreme Court ruling against Trump.
No, she’s what threatens Trump most: an honest American.
Elite Trump circles
Pitching a gas deal
Backing Giuliani’s efforts
Trump allies felt Giuliani’s free-wheeling monologues were hurting the president. And that was before the ex-New York mayor’s business associates got arrested.
For weeks, prominent Republican advisers have been privately imploring President Donald Trump to sideline Rudy Giuliani after a barrage of inconsistent, combative and occasionally cringe-inducing media interviews, according to three people familiar with the conversations.
And that was before the arrest of two foreign-born businessmen who reportedly helped Giuliani try to discredit former Vice President Joe Biden, the leading Democrat to take on Trump in next year’s election. Several reports have indicated Giuliani himself may be caught up in the probe.
Yet Trump remains linked to Giuliani, who was initially hired to help fend of Robert Mueller’s Russia investigators, but who now may have pulled the president into another investigation — one that might lead to impeachment. While the president has long appreciated Giuliani’s pugnacious and never-back-down attitude, Trump allies fear Giuliani will damage Trump with his long-winded monologues and free-wheeling accusations.
The constant sniping from staff could ultimately force Trump to dump his long-valued fixer, as he has done with former personal lawyer Michael Cohen and countless other ousted officials, like ex-Attorney General Jeff Sessions and former chief strategist Steve Bannon.
“Rudy Giuliani needs to stop talking,” said a former campaign official who remains close to Trump’s team.
Giuliani has been Trump’s attack dog since he was hired as an unpaid personal attorney April 2018. But the president’s personal lawyer has now found himself at the center of an unfolding controversy over the president’s attempts to get the Ukrainian president to open an investigation into Biden and his son, Hunter.
To numerous Trump advisers, though, the appearances have hurt more than they’ve helped the president.
“Rudy right now needs to focus on himself and not Ukraine,” said an outside Trump adviser.
For now, Trump is sticking with Giuliani, or “My Rudy,” as Giuliani said the president sometimes calls him. “Nothing has changed on that,” said Giuliani’s own attorney, Jon Sale. Trump plans to keep using Giuliani on everything but Ukraine matters because they know he’s a witness if this goes to impeachment, according to a source familiar with the legal team’s strategy.
Trump said late Friday he didn’t know if Giuliani was still his attorney. “I haven’t spoken to Rudy,” he said. “I spoke to him yesterday, briefly. He’s a very good attorney and he has been my attorney.”
That’s good for Trump, Giuliani argued.
“I’m not a puppy — I know what I’m doing,” he said. If he didn’t represent Trump, Giuliani added, “they would let him be a punching bag.”
In a text on Saturday morning, Giuliani replied to the two most pressing questions he’s facing. “No knowledge of any probe. Still President’s counsel in same way as before…no change,” he wrote.
In a Saturday morning tweet, Trump wrote: “So now they are after the legendary “crime buster” and greatest Mayor in the history of NYC, Rudy Giuliani. He may seem a little rough around the edges sometimes, but he is also a great guy and wonderful lawyer.”
At least one Republican suggested Giuliani would not leave even if Trump wanted him to. Either way, Giuliani is not going away, given his central role in the budding Ukraine controversy.
Giuliani fed Trump the information that largely led the president in a phone call to pressure Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. The former New York mayor had spent months trying to make contact with Ukrainian officials to collect evidence and convince them that they should be looking at Hunter Biden’s work for a Ukrainian gas company and Joe Biden’s Obama-era efforts to have a Ukrainian prosecutor removed over corruption concerns. There is no public evidence that either Joe or Hunter Biden broke any laws.
House Democrats launched their impeachment inquiry after Trump’s request was revealed, spurring Giuliani to blanket the airwaves with his bulldog defenses of the president. Democrats have also subpoenaed Giuliani for documents and testimony related to his Ukraine activities, setting off a battle that’s likely to drag on for weeks.
Don Goldberg, who helped respond to congressional investigations in the Clinton White House, said Giuliani shouldn’t be helping Trump when he’s facing his own problems.
“It’s so messed up,” he said. “You’d think a president would want to have competent counsel if you’re talking about fighting for your political life. We’re so far not seeing that with the caliber he’s been using.”
Giuliani suggested in an interview this week that his television appearances could be reduced now that Trump’s legal team is expanding.
Some also speculated that the recent addition of former Rep. Trey Gowdy (R-S.C.) to the Trump impeachment legal team was an attempt to reduce Giuliani’s appearances on the airwaves.
Although Gowdy — who led the congressional investigation into former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s response to in the 2012 Benghazi terrorist attacks — won’t start as a Trump attorney until January, he could appear as a surrogate on television in the meantime.
Democrats initially launched an investigation into Trump on Sept. 24 after learning about his call with Zelensky.
And Giuliani has been talking — a lot.
On Sept. 19, he denied he asked Ukraine to investigate the Bidens, only to admit it 30 seconds later.
On Sept. 24, he blew up at radio host Christopher Hahn during a joint television appearance, calling him a “moron” and an “idiot.”
On Oct. 6, he yelled at TV host Howard Kurtz, putting his fingers to his lips to shush him in the middle of the interview.
And in a series of phone interviews, Giuliani described himself both as a “hero” and the real “whistleblower” in the Ukraine saga, questioning why anyone would praise the person who initially raised concerns about Trump’s call.
“If I get killed now, you won’t get the rest of the story,” he warned POLITICOlast month.
Michael Gerhardt, a University of North Carolina law professor who has written books on impeachment, said Giuliani’s primary legal role is to appear on television.
“That’s helping facilitate the political arguments the president is making,” he said. “But at some point, if impeachment gets any traction, you’re going to need somebody that can speak more clearly and more powerfully with respect to the different points of the impeachment articles that may be drafted and ratified.”
Giuliani said he and Jay Sekulow, another Trump attorney, are still working for Trump because they successfully represented Trump during Mueller’s investigation into whether the Trump campaign conspired with Russia to interfere in the 2016 election.
“Jay and I got us through the last one, not the peanut gallery,” Giuliani said. “The president has made his views quite well known.”
It’s not the first time prominent Republicans have complained to Trump about Giuliani. But those same allies say the situation has grown dire since the House opened its impeachment inquiry.
“I think he’s massively hurting,” said a person close to the Trump campaign. “His TV appearances are so confused and contradictory, he’s creating an impression of internal chaos.”
“He’s inarticulate,” said a Republican who speaks to the president. “Rudy hurts the president with inconsistent, confusing messages.”
One former senior administration official described it this way when asked what Trump’s strategy against impeachment should be: “Hopefully Rudy will be on the space shuttle.”
So far, Trump has not heeded the advice.
“As long as Giuliani is doing battle with the president’s perceived critics and opponents, that’s what matters to the president,” said Republican strategist Kevin Madden, who worked for Mitt Romney’s 2012 presidential campaign. “The efficiency of the performance isn’t as important as the willingness to do battle.”
Trump admires Giuliani’s brand, his loyalty and his Trump-like style, according to people familiar with their relationship. He has both political and legal experience at the national level, and has known the president for decades.
“They have a brotherly relationship,” said a second Republican who speaks to the president. “He likes his combative style.”
Giuliani’s reputation soared after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, when he was dubbed “America’s Mayor.” These days, he’s regularly mocked on late-night shows and “Saturday Night Live.” His favorable ratings dipped to their lowest point in 2018 since Gallup began their polling on him in 2004.
Still, Trump supporters credit him with helping the president survive the Mueller investigation — and now exposing the Biden allegations.
At the White House Friday, senior aide Stephen Miller forcefully defended Giuliani. “You should all be grateful Rudy Giuliani is helping to shine a light on the endemic corruption that occurred while Joe Biden was vice president,” he told reporters, alluding to unsubstantiated claims that Biden got a Ukrainian prosecutor fired to protect his son.
Republican strategist John Feehery said Trump loves what he is doing. “If this were any other president, Rudy would be a disaster,” he said. “There is a method to the madness. The goal is to always stay on offense and not be defensive.”
But there was at least one sign that Trump might be tiring of Giuliani.
On Thursday, the president told reporters he didn’t know the two Giuliani associates — Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman — charged with sending foreign money to U.S. political campaigns. Then, he turned the attention squarely back to Giuliani.
“You’d have to ask Rudy,” he said.
THAT AT LEAST SHOULD BE SAFE. HE CLEARLY DID NOT EXPECT TO RUN
HE CLEARLY DID NOT EXPECT TO RUN INTO LOCAL REPORTERS WHO KNEW
INTO LOCAL REPORTERS WHO KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE TALKING
EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT WHO WERE ABSOLUTELY RED IN
ABOUT WHO WERE ABSOLUTELY RED IN ON THIS SUBJECT, WHO KNEW WHAT
ON THIS SUBJECT, WHO KNEW WHAT TO ASK, WHO WOULDN’T BACK DOWN
TO ASK, WHO WOULDN’T BACK DOWN AND WERE READY TO — READY TO
AND WERE READY TO — READY TO ADVANCE THIS STORY EVEN WHEN HE
ADVANCE THIS STORY EVEN WHEN HE WOULD NOT ANSWER.
WOULD NOT ANSWER. WATCH THIS FROM NASHVILLE.
WATCH THIS FROM NASHVILLE. >> THE ANNOUNCEMENT YESTERDAY,
>> THE ANNOUNCEMENT YESTERDAY, ONE OF YOUR MOST TRUSTED SENIOR
ONE OF YOUR MOST TRUSTED SENIOR ADVISERS RESIGNED.
ADVISERS RESIGNED. HE IS ADDING HIS VOICE TO A
HE IS ADDING HIS VOICE TO A NUMBER OF CAREER DIPLOMATS WHO
NUMBER OF CAREER DIPLOMATS WHO EXPRESSED FRUSTRATION OVER WHAT
EXPRESSED FRUSTRATION OVER WHAT THEY SEE AS YOUR FAILURE TO
THEY SEE AS YOUR FAILURE TO STAND UP FOR GOVERNMENT SERVICE
STAND UP FOR GOVERNMENT SERVICE AND FOR SERVANTS LIKE AMBASSADOR
AND FOR SERVANTS LIKE AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH CAUGHT UP IN THE
YOVANOVITCH CAUGHT UP IN THE UKRAINE CONTROVERSY.
UKRAINE CONTROVERSY. DID YOU DO ENOUGH TO DEFEND THE
DID YOU DO ENOUGH TO DEFEND THE AMBASSADOR PRIVATELY AND
AMBASSADOR PRIVATELY AND PUBLICALLY AGAINST THE SMEAR
PUBLICALLY AGAINST THE SMEAR CAMPAIGN BEING WAGED AGAINST
CAMPAIGN BEING WAGED AGAINST HER?
HER? AND WILL YOU SPEAK TO THAT NOW?
AND WILL YOU SPEAK TO THAT NOW? >> MAYBE YOU HAVE SOME OF YOUR
>> MAYBE YOU HAVE SOME OF YOUR FACTS WRONG, SO YOU SHOULD BE
FACTS WRONG, SO YOU SHOULD BE CAREFUL ABOUT THINGS YOU ASSERT
CAREFUL ABOUT THINGS YOU ASSERT AS FACTS BEFORE YOU STATE THEM.
AS FACTS BEFORE YOU STATE THEM. >> CAN YOU SPEAK TO MICHAEL
>> CAN YOU SPEAK TO MICHAEL McKINLEY’S RESIGNATION?
McKINLEY’S RESIGNATION? >> I DON’T TALK ABOUT PERSONNEL
>> I DON’T TALK ABOUT PERSONNEL MATTERS.
MATTERS. >> DID YOU SUPPORT AMBASSADOR —
>> DID YOU SUPPORT AMBASSADOR — THE AMBASSADOR BEING RECALLED
THE AMBASSADOR BEING RECALLED MONTHS BEFORE HER TENURE WAS UP?
MONTHS BEFORE HER TENURE WAS UP? >> I SUPPORTED EVERY MISSION
>> I SUPPORTED EVERY MISSION THAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS
THAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN ENGAGED IN.
BEEN ENGAGED IN. >> IN MID-FEBRUARY YOU WERE IN
>> IN MID-FEBRUARY YOU WERE IN WARSAW.
WARSAW. DURING YOUR TIME THERE, DID YOU
DURING YOUR TIME THERE, DID YOU MEET WITH GIULIANI?
MEET WITH GIULIANI? >> YOU KNOW, I DON’T TALK ABOUT
>> YOU KNOW, I DON’T TALK ABOUT WHO I MEET WITH.
WHO I MEET WITH. I WENT TO WARSAW FOR A
I WENT TO WARSAW FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
PARTICULAR PURPOSE. >> SO YOU’RE NOT GOING TO SAY
>> SO YOU’RE NOT GOING TO SAY WHETHER YOU MET WITH HIM?
WHETHER YOU MET WITH HIM? >> SO WHEN I WAS IN WARSAW, I
>> SO WHEN I WAS IN WARSAW, I HAD A SINGULAR FOCUS.
HAD A SINGULAR FOCUS. MY FOCUS WAS ON THE WORK WE HAVE
MY FOCUS WAS ON THE WORK WE HAVE DONE.
DONE. >> IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE NOT
>> IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO SAY.
GOING TO SAY. >> WHEN I WAS IN WARSAW, WE WERE
>> WHEN I WAS IN WARSAW, WE WERE WORKING DILIGENTLY TO ACCOMPLISH
WORKING DILIGENTLY TO ACCOMPLISH THE MISSION.
THE MISSION. >> TEXT MESSAGES SHOW THAT
>> TEXT MESSAGES SHOW THAT DIPLOMATS UNDER YOUR AUTHORITY
DIPLOMATS UNDER YOUR AUTHORITY TOLD THE UKRAINIANS THAT THE
TOLD THE UKRAINIANS THAT THE GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT
GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS ONLY POSSIBLE IF THEY
TRUMP WAS ONLY POSSIBLE IF THEY INVESTIGATED HIS POLITICAL
INVESTIGATED HIS POLITICAL OPPONENTS AND THEORIES ABOUT
OPPONENTS AND THEORIES ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN 2016.
WHAT HAPPENED IN 2016. WERE YOU AWARE THAT THIS WAS
WERE YOU AWARE THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING?
HAPPENING? >> AGAIN, YOU HAVE GOT YOUR
>> AGAIN, YOU HAVE GOT YOUR FACTS WRONG.
FACTS WRONG. SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE WORKING AT
SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE WORKING AT LEAST IN PART FOR THE DEMOCRATIC
LEAST IN PART FOR THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE WHEN YOU
NATIONAL COMMITTEE WHEN YOU PHRASE THAT PREDICATE OF A
PHRASE THAT PREDICATE OF A QUESTION IN THAT WAY.
QUESTION IN THAT WAY. TUS
TUS IT IS UNFORTUNATE.
IT IS UNFORTUNATE. >> THE REPORTER ASKING THOSE
>> THE REPORTER ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS WAS NANCY AMENS, WHICH
QUESTIONS WAS NANCY AMENS, WHICH IS A LOCAL NBC AFFILIATE IN
IS A LOCAL NBC AFFILIATE IN NASHVILLE.
NASHVILLE. WOW DID SHE DO A GOOD JOB THERE.
WOW DID SHE DO A GOOD JOB THERE. SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO,
SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO, LISTEN, CAN’T ANSWER QUESTIONS
LISTEN, CAN’T ANSWER QUESTIONS FROM LOCAL REPORTERS, NOT WHEN
FROM LOCAL REPORTERS, NOT WHEN EVERYBODY CAN FOLLOW THIS VERY
EVERYBODY CAN FOLLOW THIS VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD STORY.
STRAIGHTFORWARD STORY. SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO
SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO MAY FIND HIMSELF GETTING
MAY FIND HIMSELF GETTING IMPEACHED HERE FOR HOW HE HAS
IMPEACHED HERE FOR HOW HE HAS TRIED TO COVER IT UP SINCE.
TRIED TO COVER IT UP SINCE. MIKE POMPEO TRIED TO HIDE THE
MIKE POMPEO TRIED TO HIDE THE FACT HE WAS ON THE CALL.
FACT HE WAS ON THE CALL. HE APPEARS CLEARLY NOW IN AN
HE APPEARS CLEARLY NOW IN AN INTERVIEW WITH NBC’S AFFILIATE
INTERVIEW WITH NBC’S AFFILIATE IN NASHVILLE TENNESSEE, HE
IN NASHVILLE TENNESSEE, HE APPEARS CLEARLY NOW TO BE TRYING
APPEARS CLEARLY NOW TO BE TRYING TO HIDE SOMETHING ABOUT WHEN AND
TO HIDE SOMETHING ABOUT WHEN AND WHERE HE WAS MEETING WITH RUDY
WHERE HE WAS MEETING WITH RUDY GIULIANI WHEN THE SCHEME WAS
GIULIANI WHEN THE SCHEME WAS BEING HATCHED.
BEING HATCHED. DID YOU IN FACT MEET WITH RUDY
DID YOU IN FACT MEET WITH RUDY GIULIANI IN WARSAW EARLIER THIS
GIULIANI IN WARSAW EARLIER THIS YEAR BEFORE WE ALL KNEW THIS
YEAR BEFORE WE ALL KNEW THIS SCHEME WAS UNDERWAY?
AND EVERYBODY IS TRYING TO GET AS FAR AWAY AS THEY CAN FROM
AS FAR AWAY AS THEY CAN FROM THIS, RIGHT?
THIS, RIGHT? BUT WITH THE FIRST ARRESTS, WITH
BUT WITH THE FIRST ARRESTS, WITH NOT JUST ONE BUT MULTIPLE PHOTOS
NOT JUST ONE BUT MULTIPLE PHOTOS OF THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE
OF THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT WITH THESE MEN WHO
PRESIDENT WITH THESE MEN WHO WERE JUST ARRESTED AND THE
WERE JUST ARRESTED AND THE PRESIDENT’S ELDEST SON WITH
PRESIDENT’S ELDEST SON WITH THESE MEN WHO WERE JUST
THESE MEN WHO WERE JUST ARRESTED, WITH NEWS ABOUT THE
ARRESTED, WITH NEWS ABOUT THE WHITE HOUSE DINNER THAT
WHITE HOUSE DINNER THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP INVITED THESE
PRESIDENT TRUMP INVITED THESE MEN WHO WERE JUST ARRESTED TO
MEN WHO WERE JUST ARRESTED TO JUST LAST YEAR.
JUST LAST YEAR. THAT’S HIM INVITING THEM TO THE
THAT’S HIM INVITING THEM TO THE WHITE HOUSE FOR A MEETING, FOR A
WHITE HOUSE FOR A MEETING, FOR A DINNER MEETING, RIGHT?
DINNER MEETING, RIGHT? I MEAN, THIS IS A DOWNWARD
I MEAN, THIS IS A DOWNWARD SPIRAL AT THIS POINT.
SPIRAL AT THIS POINT. THE HOMELAND SECURITY SECONDARY
THE HOMELAND SECURITY SECONDARY RESIGNED TONIGHT.
RESIGNED TONIGHT. THE ENERGY SECRETARY RECK PERRY
THE ENERGY SECRETARY RECK PERRY IS FACING A SUBPOENA FOR HIS
IS FACING A SUBPOENA FOR HIS INVOLVEMENT IN THIS.
INVOLVEMENT IN THIS. THE SECRETARY OF STATE APPEARS
THE SECRETARY OF STATE APPEARS TO BE AT RISK OF IMPEACHMENT
TO BE AT RISK OF IMPEACHMENT HIMSELF AS HE IS MULTIPLY
HIMSELF AS HE IS MULTIPLY IMPLICATED IN THE PRESIDENT’S
IMPLICATED IN THE PRESIDENT’S SCHEME THAT NOW APPEARS TO HAVE
SCHEME THAT NOW APPEARS TO HAVE TURNED ROUNDLY AGAINST HIM,
TURNED ROUNDLY AGAINST HIM, INCLUDING THE RESIGNATION IN
INCLUDING THE RESIGNATION IN PROTEST OF HIS NUMBER TWO LAST
PROTEST OF HIS NUMBER TWO LAST NIGHT.
NIGHT. BUCKLE UP.