Discerning History: Authority

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it’s been a long time since we were here
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together and so Gettysburg is our topic
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as I’m sure you remember and I want to
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start tonight by seeing if there are
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things that have occurred to you in this
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interval that you want to bring up any
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leftover things from last time or any
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nagging problems or aggravating
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statements that you’ve been mulling over
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since we last met Scott you look like
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you’re assuming the asking a question
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position is that correct I do have a
question I one of the things that I as
like a historian of the Civil War and
you kind of touched on this in the essay
you wrote on here the struggle to like
figure out who to believe and who did
not believe and how you decipher all
these different accounts and I feel like
in this book which one are you pointing
to Alexander yeah versus some of other
things we’ve read he has a different
perspective on like whether they should
have continued the battle on the first
day and that he’d be he offered the
opposite point of view I thought that in
a number of instances than what we read
and I struggle especially because a lot
of this stuff is written so far after
the war to decipher like you know and
particularly you who’ve studied a more
asking how do you understand and how do
you kind of consolidate two different
perspectives and who’s right and you
would actually have you you read a lot
of things and play them off against one
another and make judgments about which
people which historical actors tend to
be reliable and which are liars that a
number of them are just in better Liars
they lie about everything he is he is I
told you before everybody else came in I
think he is the single best writer about
the war among all the people who
experienced the war and wrote about it
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from the Confederate side and I think on
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the Union side the only one
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better than geniuses u.s. grant us grant
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and Porter Alexander are the two best
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memoirs military memoirs of the Civil
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War he wrote another book as you know if
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you read the introduction in here
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carefully that he published in nineteen
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seven and Alexander did called military
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memoirs of a Confederate it’s so good
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that it has never been out of print
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two hundred and thirteen years later
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that books never gone out of print
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he wrote this one however before he
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wrote military memoirs and military
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memoirs has a misleading title because
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it isn’t a memoir it’s really a history
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of the Army of Northern Virginia
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he wrote this one first wrote it only
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for his children which gives him a tone
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that simply is almost never present in a
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memoir as you know he’s very hard on
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robert e lee in various places in there
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almost no former Confederates were hard
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on these very hard on Stonewall Jackson
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he quotes profanity he quotes instances
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of cowardice he’s absolutely up front
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about Confederate soldiers who killed
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black soldiers who tried to surrender at
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the Battle of the crater he’s not very
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matter-of-fact they killed them they
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came they heard there were black
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soldiers they came from way down at the
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other end of the line so they could kill
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one of them it’s it’s it’s an amazing
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book in many ways and it was a
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revelation to me not only to me but to
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people who knew Alexander well and in
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the literature very well I think that
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has become the single most quoted book
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on Lee’s army by anyone who was in his
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army and it’s just because he’s I’ve
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been able to check lots of things over
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the years his descriptions and so forth
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and he he’s amazingly accurate was an
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engineer he’s really smart he’s
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obnoxious Lee smart can tell by reading
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this that he was a pain to a lot of
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people because he was smarter than they
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were and they knew he was smarter than
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they were one of one of those kinds of
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people we all know those people we maybe
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those people but anyway he’s one of
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those people and he had there’s a
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description in there of a place on the
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North Anna River he was at that place
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one time for 30 minutes in his life and
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he described how the Federals started to
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shell that position and how the house
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had recessed windows
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said they thought they were about a foot
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and he jumped up in one of the windows
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and pressed himself against that as the
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shells came in and one of the union
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shells hit a chimney that was up to to
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his left and destroyed part of it and we
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took a tour there this has been 15 years
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ago now got to that house and it’s
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exactly as he described it recessed
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windows a chimney with a repair on the
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top of it right to the top left of the
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window which was on the side of the
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house where he said he was it’s just
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astonishing of what his memory was like
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but he also had a diary that helped jog
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his memory
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and he had letters that he’d written
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during the war that he also used when he
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wrote this so it’s so it’s an amazing
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account that doesn’t mean it’s
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infallible and it doesn’t mean there’s
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no second guessing there’s always second
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guessing in a memoir even more generally
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I mean it talks about in the the other
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book about how even in the war council
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would need like there were all the
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different people who were there and have
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first-hand accounts have dipped recount
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like the weather men had reservations
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about and they don’t all agree and if
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three weeks from now somebody looked all
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of us up and asked us to give them an
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account of this class meeting there
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would be many things that would be
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difficult to reconcile we would you’re
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all going to very different memories of
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what goes on in here you hear different
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things you process different things
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differently and you’ll just have
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different memories I think I’m very
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suspicious of oral histories as a
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category of evidence they’ve they’re
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very much used now they’re going to be
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used more and more because people don’t
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write letters anymore and they try to
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destroy email even though they really
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can’t but they get it beyond the reach
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of historians so it’s going to be a real
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problem I think an even bigger problem
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than it has been in the past
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yes and
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worse because if we were sharing our
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view of this class we wouldn’t have an
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agenda oh you might have an agenda
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we might everybody has an agenda I’m not
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that compared to people who are trying
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to chose not comparative people whose
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reputations are on the line
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yes not compared to Daniel sickles
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arguing with George Gordon Meade about
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what went on on the second day of the
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Battle of Gettysburg no they have a lot
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right now I have a lot riding on that
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yes I think kind of a different way that
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liyan means are treated is really
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interesting it seems like Lee gets away
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with making a lot of mistakes and
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everybody forgives him and his
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reputation still really strong and it
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seems all neat successes are kind of
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characterizes not sort of good luck you
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mean his successes at Gettysburg yeah
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good kind of good fortune and I is it
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does we get away with it because of the
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charisma because I want to know what you
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think the answer to your own question is
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that was the one thing I could come up
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with and also maybe Longstreet just
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going on such a tiring after Gettysburg
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probably helpfully out in a huge way but
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it did it I think if we could bring Mead
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and Lee into this room and have them
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here they would leave and then we would
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talk about them and you would have a
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very different impression of lead than
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you did me no matter what you thought
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and you might have an impression going
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in by the time they left I think you
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would leave was just one of those people
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who commanded spaces and impressed
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people even people who didn’t especially
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think they wanted to like him me was
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grumpy and he doesn’t have a lot of
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successes over all his career I mean Lee
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comes into Gettysburg with this resume
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with a number of really quite
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spectacular successes on it almost all
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against the odds and me doesn’t have
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that on these resume
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never has that on his resume and has the
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bad fortune about a year after
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Gettysburg to find himself traveling
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he’s still the commander the army but
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grant is traveling with the army and so
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it’s not means army it’s grants army if
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anything good happens it’s grants army
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if anything bad happens it could be
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means army well so what
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you never think that lea would do
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something like media Chamberlain like
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give him like 120 men and just like well
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me didn’t do that to Chamberlain
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underlings did it I mean it happened it
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was way down the chain of command it was
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the brigade commander who told
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Chamberlain a guy named strong Vincent
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and you’ll see his little marker where
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he was mortally wounded strong Vincent
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told Joshua Chamberlain strong Vincent
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commanded this brigade and in the fifth
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Corps and Joshua Chamberlain’s main
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regiment was one of the regiment’s in
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that when you walk along Little Round
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Top when you’re there they’re the main
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regiment then there’s an 83rd
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Pennsylvania and there’s a Michigan
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regiment and a New York regiment those
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are the four regiments in a brigade and
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it just so happened that Chamberlain
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ended up on the left but of course you
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mean what would we put soldiers in a
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position like that yeah
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just like that oh he would just
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absolutely like that
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yep yep say though that meat has like
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nothing like what Lee has on his resume
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but he was the commander of the army
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when the Union won the biggest battle of
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the war so isn’t that a huge resume
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building no because it’s grants army in
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everybody’s mind it’s because US Grant
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is with that army the entire way
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once he gets east which is to say the
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only battle where George Meade is really
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the commander of the army of the coma is
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this one but it’s a big one but it is a
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big one it’s a really big one it’s a big
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one that left
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Abraham Lincoln with what idea about me
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did he let Lee get away and finished you
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had a chance to really finish the job
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and he didn’t do it didn’t do it
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immensely frustrated by this once grant
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comes Meade is part of the eye and I
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think meat was a good soldier don’t get
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me wrong but meat is not the soldier
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could win the war for the United States
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I mean there’s not the slightest chance
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that he could have been a soldier who
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won the war the United States he just
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doesn’t just doesn’t have it why do you
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think he was so and and I was surprised
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by the essay on meeting here because
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he’s like touted as this great very
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positive este positive but when you read
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it there he doesn’t do that much he just
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like repositions some people and gets a
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lot of credit for that but obviously
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clearly Sowers is he’s very good at
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repositioning you know that sounded so
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snarky actually was good at
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repositioning and that is important
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we’ll taco I mean this is yeah so we’ll
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talk about that what’s your body is
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narrow if you got bottom line to this
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particular set of comments all effort
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those trying to dish I was trying to
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defend the point that meat had nothing
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on his resume because well coming into
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Gettysburg here’s range resume he was a
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pretty good division commander he
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commanded the Pennsylvania reserves he
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commanded the division at Antietam then
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he’s promoted the corps commander he’s a
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corps commander at Chancellorsville but
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he doesn’t really do anything he was
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still a division commander at
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Fredericksburg and his guys got shot
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just like everybody else’s he did okay
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but he didn’t really stand out so he’s
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an okay corps commander he was a pretty
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good division commander and he’s an army
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commander who’s been in command for
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three days that’s a pretty blank resume
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I think for someone who’s an i and in
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contrast Lee has the seven-day second
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Bull Run the Maryland campaign
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Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville on
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his resume vastly different maybe back
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to Kara’s question a little bit Scott’s
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um does the difference between what
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Howley and he’ll meet or perceived as a
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maybe to some of that stem from they’re
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just they’re different leadership styles
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as well the fact that it does seem like
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pretty consistent Lili is the central
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figure right he’s figurehead he’s an
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idol all all decisions flow to him he
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has a very small staff and much too
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small right and
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admittedly and and at the same time mead
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is having counsels and group discussions
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and votes about what should be done and
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I wonder if that distributive form of
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power just that kind of a distributive
12:52
power structure if maybe that also these
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because it makes it easy for meets
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critics to look them and say oh he
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didn’t decide anything the group did
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okay right but at the same time in my
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mind it seems like that actually might
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be a more effective more effective but
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that was one of the questions that I
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wanted to talk about that I wanted to do
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at last but I don’t care how we do this
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I will get to lots of things tonight and
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since this is supposed to be a more
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freeform evening we can do just exactly
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whatever you want to do as long as you
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don’t get wildly out of control but if
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we want to talk about that I’m happy to
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talk about that they have very different
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leadership styles leak and make a
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decision Lee doesn’t need votes to
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decide what he’s going to he talks to
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people talks to Longstreet every day
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we’ll do more of this next week talking
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about the subordinates goes and talks to
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you’ll and his subordinates on the night
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of the first talks to you again that
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night he’s worried about you all he’s
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already figuring out that you’ll he’s
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not Stonewall Jackson which he didn’t
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know before now he’s figuring that out
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but he never says let’s vote never says
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that’s all getting the room and vote
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that’s not he does not need to do that
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but me certainly you can have some
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sympathy for being in this situation
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that having been in command for three
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days and never been an army commander
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before he’s junior to some of the pizza
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some of the other corps commanders he
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isn’t even the senior corps commander
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he’s junior to John Reynolds he’s junior
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to John Sedgwick it’s not even the
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senior corps commander in the army and
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people in the army are very meticulous
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about rank during the Civil War and even
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now but then they certainly were if I’m
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a Major General and Bryce is a
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major-general but I was a major-general
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a month before Bryce I’m not going to be
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entirely comfortable if Bryce is put in
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charge of me because I rank him
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and that’s the case with me at
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Gettysburg it’s two of his subordinates
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who are senior to him in the army Justin
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I was gonna say isn’t someone telling as
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well at one time that he did pole that
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he wanted to kind of back away the
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reposition and was it all the corps
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commanders we wanted to stay all the
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ones who were awake yes and one was
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asleep and one didn’t vote but yes all
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those who voted but what is the point
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this essay this favorable essay to him
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what’s the point that he makes in that
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essay that’s a decision that people
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appointed too many times this show that
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me just can’t meet has to get he needs a
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consensus he needs to find out what
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everybody wants to do what’s the yes I
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say about that said he’d already made up
15:29
his mind to stay before he asked for the
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vote but he hadn’t made up his mind
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about was whether to remain on the
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defensive or to attack the next day but
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he’d already made the decision and
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already sent a message to the War
15:42
Department about his intention to stay
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so he made one decision without talking
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to but of course that raises the
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question what if what if six of the nine
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people in the room and said well we
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think we need to go we don’t think we
15:57
should stay then I think George mean why
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not of stage who knows we can’t know
16:05
about that but I think that police is
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right behind this specific better which
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is a big one isn’t better this kind of
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leadership style because you have so
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many battle fronts and then you can
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instead of like waiting the kind of
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hours to come to talk to you and send
16:23
another decision like everybody just
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decide by themselves and you know you
16:28
kid
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on a faster speed than the enemy because
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it’s so centralized it they cannot go as
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fast as you can no because no and that’s
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so that’s smart so he brings everybody
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in and he asks Hancock what’s going on
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in your part of the line and he asks
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Warren let’s go what have you seen I
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mean and everybody can tell him bring
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their intelligence from the very parts
16:53
of the line sure that’s I would think
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that’s a smart
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to do that’s a smart thing to do for the
16:58
next day to plan is wailing and again
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for the same day battles but once the
17:04
battle starts then of course it becomes
17:05
very difficult because communication is
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so problematical on a Civil War
17:10
battlefield really problematical you
17:12
want to send a message to Hancock and
17:15
you so you get your staff officer Scott
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and start point him in the direction of
17:21
where you think Hancock is supposed to
17:23
be and he goes and well Hancock has gone
17:26
over to talk to somebody else so he’s
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not there or Scott gets shot on the way
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over or he gets lost or his horse gets
17:33
shot I mean anything it’s really really
17:36
difficult to maintain what we would
17:40
consider reasonable control of a
17:42
battlefield when you’re talking about
17:43
there are 160,000 men on that
17:48
battlefield within a few miles of one
17:50
another
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Jake said that was a question I had
17:52
reading the paper we’re talking the
17:55
first day a lot about we was exerted
17:58
yeah I actually talked about that but
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you’re being kind yeah how much the
18:06
communication of the time I mean how
18:08
much it was can user well here’s the
18:10
influence he can exert on the first day
18:12
the waited what did Lee wants what are
18:14
these orders in his army what’s the
18:17
situation on the first day is Lee is
18:19
riding toward Gettysburg that morning of
18:24
July 1st anybody to have to avoid a big
18:26
engagement he has ordered his
18:28
lieutenants not to bring on a general
18:30
engagement quiet his whole army isn’t
18:33
done yet Longstreet pickets armies all
18:35
over southern Pennsylvania he wants them
18:37
back together it’s the same thing
18:38
happened to her in the Maryland campaign
18:40
his army was scattered all over Maryland
18:42
and he was pushed into a fight so here
18:45
he wants the army back together before
18:47
he gets into a fight those are the
18:50
instructions the night before oh so what
18:52
happens in the morning okay ap Hill
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tales
19:01
Henry Heath he can walk into Gettysburg
19:03
to look for shoes who is not doing this
19:07
job right there what what is what
19:09
missing component here Jim Stewart if
19:13
Jeff Stewart had been there with the
19:14
cavalry we would have known there were
19:16
pebbles in Gettysburg you would have
19:18
known and Henry Heath would not have
19:20
walked into Gettysburg with his big
19:22
clunking division which is not what big
19:25
clunking divisions of infantry do you
19:27
don’t line 7,000 guys up on the road for
19:30
a breast and walk toward something
19:32
you’re not sure about but that’s what
19:34
was that’s what happened just annoying
19:36
is what was the definition of general
19:38
engagement in terms of so in my mind and
19:40
reading kind of essentially this was you
19:43
know heavy reconnaissance this was you
19:45
know there’s some engagement but it
19:46
wasn’t the full-on Army’s colliding well
19:49
what happens when you start shooting at
19:50
each other
19:51
put the Hoosier how many are shooting it
19:53
does doesn’t it but button but let me
19:56
reframe my question what can happen when
19:59
you if you have an infantry division
20:00
that starts shooting at other people
20:02
that can easily turn you together I mean
20:05
the best way not to bring on a general
20:07
engagement is don’t go start shooting at
20:09
somebody if you’re an infantry division
20:11
let your cavalry sort of do what cavalry
20:14
do and don’t send an infantry division
20:17
forward and so by the time
20:21
soli hears this firing in the direction
20:24
of Gettysburg and decides to go take a
20:27
look so he gets there – any of you
20:30
remember about when you got there up to
20:33
Oklahoma about two o’clock he shows up
20:35
on her Ridge you’ll see her ridge when
20:37
you get there it’s one Ridge over from
20:39
McPherson Ridge so here comes Lee here’s
20:43
Gettysburg here’s Burridge merson’s
20:47
Ridge seminary Ridge Oak Hill and
20:52
Cemetery Hill and Culp’s Hill wildly out
20:55
of proportion but generally the soli
20:58
shows up here to what has gone on down
21:02
to that point in the day what’s the
21:04
situation when he gets there can anybody
21:07
give us a quick account 25 seconds
21:12
what’s happened
21:13
he’s moving in on this road he come in
21:16
two on the Chambersburg pike modern
21:18
route 30
21:19
with his 7000 infantry
21:21
and he gets this far he gets to her
21:24
Ridge any runs into Buford’s cavalry
21:28
which is here and on McPherson Ridge and
21:30
the cavalry make heath deploy which
21:33
takes them takes a long time to get 7000
21:36
men from being four abreast walking
21:40
along road to in battle lines like this
21:43
so you go for its call from going you’re
21:46
in column on the road and you go into
21:48
line into a battle formation takes an
21:50
hour for Heath to do that then they
21:54
fight here and it’s a and the battle is
21:57
on an east-west axis we’ve talked about
21:58
all of this the cavalry fights about an
22:01
hour and then John Reynolds comes up
22:04
with the first Corps and then it becomes
22:05
an infantry fight Justin this is why
22:07
it’s you don’t want your infantry
22:08
walking along Pennsylvania and running
22:11
into somebody now you have an entire
22:14
infantry Corps fighting a Confederate
22:17
division now you’ve got $15,000 17,000
22:21
guys shooting at each other that’s
22:22
getting very close to being a general
22:24
engagement already but you get a
22:27
stalemate here because the Federals are
22:30
in a good position on McPherson’s Ridge
22:32
you’ll see that ground it’s very good
22:35
ground
22:35
some veterans are on her rich but just
22:39
before Lee gets on the battlefield
22:42
Robert Rhoades is division of Richard
22:46
Ewell’s Corps shows up on Oak Hill and
22:50
when you stand on Oak Hill it’s a
22:51
stunning aspect from Oak Hill the Union
22:55
battle line is like this facing it that
22:58
way
22:59
Confederate artillery on Oak Hill and
23:01
they’re looking right down the whole
23:03
Union line it’s an artillerist dreams
23:06
you can’t miss if you shoot a little bit
23:09
short you’ll hit Federals here if you
23:11
shoot a little bit long you’ll hit
23:13
Federals here you’d have to be an
23:15
absolute dope knocking at federal
23:18
somewhere if you’re an artillerist up
23:20
here where they come in then Confederate
23:23
infantry shows up here and that
23:25
reorients the entire battle now the
23:27
Federals have to bring the 11th Corps
23:29
they bring the 11th Corps out here and
23:31
part of the first Corps now has to
23:33
which and paste that way now it’s a
23:36
battle that has a north-south axis and
23:39
an east-west axis and when Lee gets here
23:41
what he sees is the Confederates it’s
23:44
sheer luck as we talked about last time
23:46
they’re coming in at exactly the right
23:49
place every time the Federals get a
23:52
battle line in place Confederates come
23:54
in beyond their line and so Lee sees
23:57
that and he is the one who makes the
23:59
decision here
24:00
he says push it so he has changed his
24:04
orders at that point don’t bring on a
24:05
general engagement oh wait a minute this
24:08
general engagement looks like it’s
24:09
really going our way and so here is
24:12
combative aggressive side comes out and
24:15
he says push it but that’s a key
24:17
decision for him to make but he makes it
24:20
on the basis of what he can actually see
24:22
from there he can see the elements
24:24
coming together tactically it makes
24:27
sense we see Iran when I began I had to
24:29
that’s do you see retreat right he what
24:32
retreat or like doesn’t get into
24:35
engagement convenient many things you
24:37
said no don’t fight roll like don’t
24:39
retreat if you need to then yeah not so
24:42
much reach but yes and what had happened
24:44
to very the the day before this big
24:49
brigade under the bright North
24:51
Carolinian we talked about James
24:52
Johnston Pettigrew he had taken his
24:55
Brigade just the way heat went in on the
24:57
first Pettigrew did it on the 30th he
24:59
saw Union cavalry and what did he do he
25:01
immediately withdrew because his orders
25:04
were not to bring on a general
25:05
engagement that’s the other reaction
25:07
that is the reaction that that are that
25:10
reaction is the one that these orders
25:12
make pretty clear to anybody who has the
25:15
uniform on is desired reaction do not
25:18
start a fight because once you start a
25:21
fight anything can happen anything can
25:24
happen so Pettigrew hadn’t started a
25:27
fight the day before he gets into a
25:29
fight here but by the time Lee gets
25:31
there too these elements are coming
25:33
together and it seems to make sense to
25:37
let that let them but the by and go yes
25:40
so
25:41
there was a problem I know in other
25:42
battles used hot air balloons table you
25:44
might have been don’t know high air
25:45
balloons here that Confederates Porter
25:48
Alexander talks about the only instance
25:49
in the entire war for the Confederates
25:52
use a hot air balloon it’s during the
25:53
the Peninsula Campaign and it became
25:56
unboard and just floated down the James
25:57
the the Federals have a balloon core
26:01
sort of under a man named Thaddeus Lowe
26:04
who had balloons up during the seven
26:08
days balloons up at credit sure they’re
26:09
very unwieldy and in a really active
26:12
campaign like this the odds would be
26:14
against having them move with the army
26:17
and low fell out with the government the
26:19
government was paying him so much to be
26:21
a balloon guy it wasn’t in the army then
26:24
they they said willing to pay you half
26:26
as much and he said we’ll go to hell I’m
26:28
going to California and and that’s he
26:30
ended up out in Pasadena and mount Lowe
26:32
out there’s a named after low so they
26:34
have balloonist but Melinda’s are on
26:36
only a handful of battlefields in the
26:38
civil war they work you could get up see
26:41
everything they’d run a telegraph wire
26:42
up and so the balloonists are up there
26:44
tapping out what they can see down below
26:46
and the other side is trying to shoot
26:49
them down they dig holes put the trails
26:51
of the cameras in so they can get more
26:52
elevation and try to shoot them down but
26:54
they they don’t play a crucial role on
26:57
any battlefield okay sisters absence
27:01
that we talked about last night I feel
27:03
like I think it’s three days and
27:05
Gettysburg kind of offers him some
27:07
excuses and terms of only Alan Nolan
27:10
does because Alan Nolan wants all of it
27:12
on Lee so how does he let Stewart off
27:13
the book he says the league is in
27:15
country king borders and that he wants
27:19
him to protect the right flank but he
27:20
also you
27:22
I was hitting spy I uh you know what my
27:28
feelings are about is I I don’t think
27:30
you can let Stewart off the hook because
27:32
Stewart knew what his job was there’s
27:34
absolutely no question that he knew what
27:37
his job was his job was to screen the
27:40
armies movement is it went north and
27:41
gather intelligence about the Federals
27:44
that’s what his job is he’s really good
27:47
at it really good at it but he wasn’t
27:51
really good at it here in Allen who’s
27:53
the lawyer a really good lawyer Allen
27:56
was the senior partner in the biggest
27:58
law firm in Indiana and was on the
28:00
Harvard Law Review and he writes and
28:02
thinks like a lawyer which means he
28:05
doesn’t know how to use evidence because
28:07
lawyers here’s how lawyers use evidence
28:10
huh I want to argue a I’ve got 30 pieces
28:16
of evidence 11 of them support a 19 of
28:22
them support B but I want to argue B so
28:25
I’m going to use my 11 piece of evidence
28:27
and are you a that’s how you win cases
28:30
in a court you don’t have to tell about
28:32
the 19 pieces of evidence to the jury
28:34
but if you’re a historian and you’ve got
28:37
30 pieces of evidence and 2/3 of them
28:40
say me not a you have to think pretty
28:43
hard about arguing hey keep your
28:46
historian not if you’re a lawyer Alan
28:48
and I have many great discussions fueled
28:51
by he liked a really good scotch and
28:54
cigars and we would argue about this and
28:57
they’d say no historians don’t know how
28:59
to use evidence and I’m saying you know
29:01
really Alan come to terms with this but
29:05
that is that is how he makes his case
29:08
against Lee what’s the gist of a
29:10
lanolin’s case against Lee what is out
29:14
what really gets under Alan’s skin about
29:17
Stewart left some Calvary for him in a
29:20
broader sense oh no he did Stewart did
29:22
Lee cavalry he did leave cavalry you’re
29:24
running a company all of you you’ve got
29:28
six key subordinates you’ve got paid
29:32
really wonderful you’ve got be who’s
29:35
mighty damn good
29:36
you’ve got see who’s almost mighty damn
29:38
good you’ve got Dee who’s a complete
29:41
pain in the ass and can’t get along with
29:43
anybody else but it’s pretty good at
29:44
what he does you’ve got II who should be
29:47
sent to Siberia and kept away from Wars
29:49
and you’ve got it who is worse than e
29:52
Jeff Stewart takes these three with him
29:54
and leaves those three with lead so yes
29:58
he doesn’t need cavalry with Lee and
30:00
these two are cavalry who would fit into
30:04
the bar seeing in Star Wars this one is
30:07
good well you can’t get along with
30:09
anybody so it’s true that he leaves
30:12
cavalry that’s the truth but it’s not
30:15
cavalry that’s very good and so if you
30:19
have if you have a really critical
30:21
operation you’ve got three really good
30:23
underlings and three who are not really
30:27
very good and you decide these are the
30:30
ones you’re going to let it just me
30:32
that’s not a close call just to push
30:34
back inside though it wasn’t that big
30:36
failed at Gettysburg these three you
30:38
know deeper back it’s that you weren’t
30:39
even there
30:40
I mean why would you well the best one
30:43
the best one d and I’ll put a name on
30:46
him his name is William e Jones and his
30:48
nickname was grumbled that’s his actual
30:51
nickname he was known as grumble Jones
30:53
in the army
30:55
grumble Jones was left basically
30:58
watching the rear echelons of the army
31:00
which is an important place for him to
31:01
be the other two guys Beverly Robertson
31:05
who was a North Carolinian who should
31:07
have been court-martialed just before
31:09
the campaign started the other was a guy
31:10
named Albert
31:11
Jenkins who commanded this cavalry from
31:14
the western part of Virginia’s it was
31:15
just unspeakably unreliable they’re the
31:19
ones who were closest to what’s going on
31:21
with the army so it’s an Jeff Stewart
31:23
has Wade Hampton and fits you and he’s
31:26
got his best bits laid he’s got his very
31:28
best people with him up by Carlisle
31:32
Pennsylvania on the 1st of July
31:34
I mean they’re just they know but the
31:36
main thing the main thing as I said
31:37
before it isn’t even which subordinates
31:40
are or aren’t there the main thing is
31:41
the Jeff Stewart he’s the key
31:44
he’s the one he said that he’s in charge
31:45
of this so should we have given him that
31:49
responsibility of course he should
31:50
because he’s never letting down he’s
31:52
been a superb cavalry officer even
31:56
though it’s he’s been superb as long as
31:58
leads he’s been there ever since Lee’s
32:01
been in the Army Jeff Stewart has been
32:02
there right from the beginning and his
32:04
absolutely reliable just as reliable
32:08
does the way Longstreet has nothing
32:11
prepared lead for how long he’d be hated
32:13
Gettysburg not be prepared Lee in
32:15
contrast to you’ll whom Lee didn’t know
32:19
very much about he knows about Stewart
32:21
Stewart is an absolutely known quantity
32:23
to lead and so’s Longstreet okay I
32:28
didn’t get we’re trying to get like with
32:30
the cavalry I mean how custard assign
32:32
each cover he would take and did he need
32:36
because Lee Lee style of command we
32:39
talked about this before it’s a very
32:41
it’s a very loose rein that he exercises
32:44
over these people he really trusts he
32:46
tells Stewart what he wants him to do
32:48
and then what’s worrying about it and
32:50
just assumes that Stewart will do it
32:52
because Stewart has always done it
32:54
before so Stewart what Lee didn’t know
32:56
is it Stewart was going to take these
32:58
three brigades and ride off to the east
32:59
and end up out of contact with the army
33:03
through the absolutely critical part of
33:06
the campaign there was no way he could
33:08
have anticipated that no way and for his
33:11
thoughts did he need the best cover he
33:13
or Lee no it’s true Stewart was it
33:16
necessary or no could have performance
33:19
well if any of us I mean if we had been
33:22
if I were Jeff Stewart I would have
33:24
taken those guys too and so would any of
33:26
you because they’re the people you rely
33:28
on the most it’s not their fault it’s
33:31
not his subordinates Stewart’s fault
33:33
yeah yeah yeah sure I would have taken
33:34
the best ones he did not think he was
33:38
good he didn’t think that he was leaving
33:39
Lee in the hands of these other
33:41
cavalryman’s Stewart did not think that
33:43
Stewart thought he was gonna be doing
33:44
what he was supposed to be doing he
33:46
didn’t know the army the Potomac was
33:48
going to start moving with him on the
33:50
other side of it and there they go
33:53
stuck
33:54
bryce what wasn’t that part of was it
33:57
nolan’s
33:57
I think it was no arguing that wasn’t
34:00
that part of it the breakdown was that
34:02
Lee had given Stuart so many orders
34:05
three or four different directives like
34:07
Alan argues that poor Jam would have
34:10
just been confused about what I was
34:12
supposed to defend and screen and gather
34:16
resources and swing around the army but
34:19
not too far but not too close he did not
34:21
tell him to swing around the in army to
34:23
be 12 but that’s a big okay if you do
34:26
they tell we did not come to swing
34:28
around the Union Army that’s Jeff York’s
34:30
decision okay that that would I don’t
34:34
think there I think if he thought he was
34:36
going to retrieve the reputation that
34:37
was taken a blow at brandy station or
34:41
Stuart almost lost the biggest cavalry
34:43
battle of the war after he’d been in his
34:45
peak Hokkien best of having big reviews
34:49
and balls tonight and having everybody
34:52
come and look at how wonderful he was
34:54
all those things and they was almost
34:56
defeated and he was humiliated
34:58
is it reasonable to expect that he could
35:01
have been confused by what seemed to be
35:04
contradictory orders you know what I
35:06
think he would have said if he was
35:08
confused he would have said generally
35:09
I’m not quite sure what you want me to
35:12
do here please clarify that’s all he
35:15
would have had to do if he would I don’t
35:17
think he was confused but if he were
35:19
confused that’s what you would do that’s
35:22
what anybody would do let me just make
35:25
sure this is what you want me to do
35:26
that’s all it would have taken they’re
35:27
together they’re in the same place he
35:30
can just go to Lee’s tent and say may I
35:33
have five minutes with the general I
35:34
have one thing I would like to clarify
35:35
what he thought we would have had to do
35:40
Dannan then my question is when he’s
35:42
dealing with someone like you all who
35:44
was not a known quantity who is
35:46
completely paralyzed by yes we know that
35:50
right he didn’t know that right so
35:52
that’s so that then that’s the question
35:54
is how does he deal with someone like
35:55
that you know in in a big confrontation
35:58
like Gettys
35:59
to say you know it indicates that you
36:03
were going to be paralyzed by my lack of
36:06
how did lady when did lead begin to have
36:09
it’s a real doubts about you Karen he
36:14
said that you should take it practical
36:16
and it’s that evening I think that Lee
36:20
began to think oh this isn’t okay it’s
36:24
not Stonewall Jackson and I better go
36:26
see just how far from Stonewall Jackson
36:28
this is soon wrote over to yields
36:30
headquarters that night and what have
36:32
you find when he got there when he let
36:34
them know that he wanted to maintain the
36:36
aggressive the next day what was the
36:38
reaction at at mules its you’ll and
36:41
Jubal Early who’s a division commander
36:43
Robert Rhoades who’s a division
36:45
commander those are the main people in
36:47
place there what’s their response the
36:52
response is just a passenger they try to
36:55
test the authenticity we don’t want to
36:58
be the main part of this offensive why
37:00
don’t you let somebody else be the main
37:02
part and we’ll we’ll play a secondary
37:04
role isn’t what Lee wanted to hear from
37:07
them not what he wanted to hear in that
37:09
room and not what he would have heard
37:12
from I hate to say it again Stonewall
37:14
Jackson it isn’t what he would have
37:16
heard from Stonewall Jackson and it’s
37:18
not what he would have heard from
37:19
Longstreet in most instances either he’s
37:21
spending at least gonna get a number of
37:23
little wake-up calls on July 1st at
37:26
Gettysburg ease already had one about
37:28
Stewart and he gets one about you he
37:31
gets one about Longstreet when they have
37:33
their first sort of tense conversation
37:36
in the afternoon Brian yeah kinda on
37:38
that that one more interesting passages
37:41
was Craig talking about the leading
37:43
causes of southern fetus first Stewart’s
37:47
absence second I guess you’ll Xin
37:50
competence right third long he puts on
37:52
cheek confidence brought you agreeing
37:53
with that I you know I think Stewart is
37:58
in a separate category because if
38:00
Stewart’s that there wouldn’t even have
38:01
been a battle if Stewart had been doing
38:03
what Stewart was supposed to do once
38:04
they’re on the battlefield I think I
38:07
think Longstreet is more culpable
38:09
I think poor you’ll have
38:10
reasons for not attacking late in the
38:13
afternoon he knew things that Lee didn’t
38:15
know he said he would attack if ap Hill
38:17
supported him on the right Lee was
38:20
literally with ap Hill when he got that
38:23
word from you and Lee never told AP hill
38:25
to attack which seems that seems odd to
38:29
me that Lee would sort of not have he’ll
38:31
attack but would expect you’ll to attack
38:33
and it seems reasonable to want a
38:36
coordinated attack so I I think Lee is
38:38
culpable there and I don’t know he never
38:40
explained why he didn’t tell Hill to
38:43
attack Hill had one division that hadn’t
38:45
fired a single shot his biggest division
38:47
hadn’t even been in the action yet
38:49
commanded by a guy named Anderson from
38:52
South Carolina hadn’t even been in the
38:54
fight so I don’t know what’s going on
38:57
with Lee there that to me is
38:58
inexplicable but boy did he he put a
39:02
black mark next to eul’s name
39:06
metaphorically at that point and it and
39:09
it never got erased it only has any put
39:11
up more but this is the first one that
39:13
night first he had an attack then he
39:16
didn’t seem aggressive when Lee went and
39:18
talked to him leave with Lee it’s pure
39:21
one of his subordinates you might not
39:24
always succeed but he would want you to
39:28
be aggressive and want to succeed and
39:31
want to harm the enemy if he doesn’t get
39:35
that kind of vibe from you it’s not good
39:38
for you terms about he’s going to think
39:41
about you
39:46
basically said that Lee was on the field
39:49
it was with health would would you let
39:51
some to some extent I said that I did at
39:58
0.2 like this were like a business and
40:01
your CIO yeah not doing well it’s gonna
40:04
be a CEO that takes responsibility takes
40:06
the fall
40:07
I agree completely I don’t understand
40:09
why unless it in legal terms of is just
40:12
all charisma at some point a remand ago
40:16
does the tax except Lee estates all
40:18
culpability and it seems like these
40:19
commanders are the scapegoat he other
40:23
people made everyone but lead the
40:25
scapegoats at Gettysburg and I think
40:27
there’s plenty of blame to pass around
40:29
but you can’t Lee doesn’t get a pass
40:30
here he is the one and he is on the
40:33
scene with Hill he’s right there so that
40:36
is in he is he’s the one who decides to
40:38
make it a big battle he’ll doesn’t
40:40
decide to make it a big battle Lee
40:41
decides to make it a big battle when
40:43
he’s on the scene and then he decides
40:46
not to do something else with he’ll he’s
40:48
but once he gets once he rides Traveler
40:52
up off the Chambersburg pike on to her
40:56
Ridge it is his battle down til then you
40:59
can point to lots of people why did
41:01
he’ll let Heath go in why did he do that
41:02
where’s Jeff Stewart once Lee is there
41:05
and the chalk is smacking all over the
41:08
ground then he’s the heat there we agree
41:13
with you completely the responsibilities
41:14
on his shoulders absolutely on his
41:16
shoulders then his defenders would say
41:19
well Lee wanted to do this and his
41:21
subordinates letting down he hoped they
41:24
would do this and they didn’t do that
41:25
and he but he is in charge once he gets
41:29
to the field at two o’clock I agree was
41:33
that part of what
41:35
he was official communications never
41:39
disingenuous about what happened or
41:42
maybe not disingenuous but he put it in
41:44
an air that he was trying to get certain
41:46
things done but trying to be defensive
41:49
if at all possible he was forced into
41:52
this and ultimately I guess passed a
41:54
little bit of the buck in terms of the
41:56
fact that it was his decision well I
41:59
actually know I don’t think Lee I think
42:02
one of the things I think is Admiral
42:04
badly is that he does take
42:05
responsibility he took the
42:07
responsibility in a letter the Jefferson
42:09
Davis right after he said I’m I it’s my
42:11
fault I asked the troops to do more than
42:13
they can do it’s my fault now he in his
42:16
post-war conversations which he didn’t
42:19
think would ever become published and
42:21
which did eventually become published he
42:24
he had a hierarchy of blame and he did
42:28
blame Jeff Stewart and he was hard on he
42:32
lumped all his corps commanders together
42:33
he said they fought the battle in a
42:35
halting way and his clear you’ll would
42:38
be at the top of that list but but
42:40
healing is on happening with the ellen
42:41
long stream as well so yes he does point
42:43
the finger at people but doesn’t in his
42:45
official report and he doesn’t publicly
42:47
and he didn’t with his own men right
42:49
after the battle he rode right out among
42:51
them you walk out on that part of the
42:53
field and said this is all my it’s all
42:55
my fault not it’s all my fault that’s
42:57
mostly my fault or it’s our fault it’s
42:59
my fault he said I salute also thinking
43:07
only and going to this point that was
43:11
also him complaining a lot about not
43:13
having commanders or generals to talk
43:16
with a versity but that he was already
43:18
in the war for a while so he’s an he’s
43:21
also his folk that he didn’t develop to
43:24
other Cornell’s or general brigades
43:29
because you know he knew the size was
43:31
getting in he knew he wanted to spread
43:34
out
43:35
more they corpse but he didn’t do well
43:41
bring you up more officers right well
43:44
here’s the here’s we talked about this
43:46
problem before and when you’re all
43:48
running high-powered country there are
43:49
companies you’ll probably find this out
43:52
too it’s hard to be certain that
43:55
somebody who’s done very well at this
43:57
level is going to do very well at this
44:00
level you just can’t tell sometimes they
44:03
do sometimes they’re spectacular
44:04
sometimes they end up with your job
44:06
button you try all the fuel somehow and
44:08
what he’s trying this is their first
44:10
battle since Stonewall Jackson died so
44:13
this is the very first time that his to
44:15
unknown quantities are going to be corps
44:18
commanders hill and you’ll they’ve never
44:20
commanded this many men before it’s new
44:23
for them this is their first time at bat
44:26
at that level of command so no he has no
44:29
record to go on there no record to go
44:31
there is no the way to try them all well
44:35
the other way to try them out is they
44:36
command at the next lowest level he’s
44:38
not going to tell Stonewall Jackson take
44:39
a battle op I want to see how he’ll does
44:41
as a guard commander know it’s donal
44:44
jackson’s their stonewall jackson’s in
44:46
charge it’s a it’s a brutal process in
44:51
the Civil War when do you have to
44:52
replace someone usually someone who’s
44:54
any good when they’re killed that’s when
44:57
you have to do it so Jackson is dead
45:00
what are we going to do one of the key
45:02
decisions that we made right after
45:05
Jackson died is the army had always been
45:07
in two pieces Jackson and half of it in
45:10
Longstreet had half of it Lee decided
45:13
that he probably shouldn’t trust anyone
45:16
else with that much so he may cut it
45:18
into three pieces instead of two and so
45:21
whereas Jackson and Longstreet that each
45:26
had a core with four divisions in it
45:28
that’s the old army in Northern Virginia
45:30
eight divisions in two Corps when they
45:33
create the new 3rd Corps they take that
45:36
division goes there that division goes
45:39
there and they bring a new division into
45:41
the army so it is so now James
45:44
Longstreet score is smaller than it was
45:46
before Richard you’ll got a smaller
45:48
version of the Corps that that Jackson
45:51
had commanded in AP Hill got a brand new
45:54
Corps that had his old division in it
45:56
which came out of Jackson’s court plus
45:59
one division from Longstreet’s Corps and
46:01
then the new one that hadn’t been with
46:03
the army before
46:03
that’s one decision Lee made and I think
46:06
that decision in itself shows that he’s
46:09
Lewis that’s almost one way to see how
46:12
these guys will do you’re giving them
46:13
not as quite as much responsibility as
46:16
Longstreet and Jackson had under the old
46:19
organization you’ve reorganized the army
46:21
and reduced the amount of responsibility
46:24
that each of your first tier of
46:26
subordinates has but it was a
46:29
requirement to do West Point
46:31
no it’s not a requirement but the other
46:37
side they had channels that were gone
46:41
they had one yeah one Corps commander
46:44
Dan sickles
46:46
is the only car commander in either army
46:48
who didn’t go to West Point in the
46:50
general to get religion there are lots
46:54
of Colonels lots of because there aren’t
46:56
enough West pointers to command these
46:58
gigantic armies so the vast majority of
47:00
officers in the armies did not go to
47:03
West Point but the top echelon of
47:06
command in both armies overwhelming in
47:10
all the Civil War armies overwhelmingly
47:12
went to West Point sickles is the only
47:14
one who didn’t and sickles is sort of
47:16
the odd man out in the army a lot of the
47:19
other officers don’t like him he’s not
47:22
part of the club in any way that didn’t
47:25
blade for Lydia also a problem to
47:28
choosing officers high rank because oh
47:30
you have to be West Point so don’t know
47:31
certainly gyro classic he would have
47:34
just know everybody he considered was a
47:37
West pointer everybody who was
47:39
conceivably a candidate to be a corps
47:41
commander
47:42
see that there was also like necessary
47:46
or he was too careful no I don’t think
47:50
there was anybody if I were at least I
47:51
wouldn’t even know where you’d have to
47:53
go so far down to get somebody who was
47:55
in the West pointer the idea of taking
47:57
them from they might be a brigade
47:59
commander so you go from commanding 1500
48:01
min to 20,000 men that’s too that’s too
48:03
big a jump to take too big a jump at the
48:06
very end of the war there was a man
48:08
named John Gordon who you’ll you’ll see
48:13
where they’ll talk about him at
48:15
Gettysburg Marines will I’m sure when
48:17
you’re there he ends up as a corps
48:19
commander at the very at Appomattox he’s
48:21
a Corps commander he’s a non West
48:23
pointer who’s just a kind of brilliant
48:25
military figure but he takes him a long
48:28
time and the only reason he gets up
48:29
there is because everybody else is
48:31
getting shot and he ends up in that
48:34
position
48:41
there’s a pause here yet yes do we start
48:45
a new line yes let’s start a new thread
48:47
I’m going to make another feeble attempt
48:50
to get you to say something nice about
48:51
books I’d say a lot of nice things on
48:53
long street when I was free was very
48:55
tall but I was going what I was trying
48:59
to find when I was digging through my
49:00
mom Street this was some I remember
49:02
reading at some point there was some
49:04
study someone did they actually tried to
49:07
duplicate his large on the second day
49:11
and they said and I wanted no fingers I
49:14
remember that he got to a point where he
49:18
was exposed so we had to backtrack and
49:20
take a look around can do you know yeah
49:23
do you know what I’m talking about
49:24
I guess I’ve made them you tell me I’ve
49:26
taken many groups on that March it is
49:28
it’s it’s an importer Alexander he talks
49:31
about it he they wanted to get around to
49:34
the Union left and you you come down a
49:38
road and I don’t know whether the
49:39
Marines maybe they’ll take you on the
49:40
smart shoe you come up to this little
49:42
piece of high ground you’re looking a
49:43
little ramp up and round top and their
49:46
Union signalman up there and they don’t
49:47
want to be discovered so when they see
49:49
that they drop back down off it RIA
49:51
today does this long counter March and
49:52
gets down in the bottom he’s got a gap
49:54
of about five hundred yards you need to
49:56
get from here to right down here without
49:58
being seen so he does this long well
50:00
Porter Alexander reached that same place
50:02
earlier in the day for his artillery
50:04
caught up and all they saw that what was
50:07
his solution to the problem he dropped
50:09
down went about 400 yards off to his
50:12
right and ended up down where he was
50:13
supposed to be cooking maybe 20 minutes
50:15
to do it 20 minutes with him when he
50:17
goes well yeah I was artillery the
50:19
artillery was out in front of the
50:21
infantry it’s not how many guys you have
50:22
it’s how do you solved the problem he
50:24
solved the problem in a very efficient
50:26
indirect way Longstreet solved the
50:28
problem in the most cumbersome
50:30
imaginable way but ate up lots of
50:32
precious time and Alexander remarked in
50:35
another context he didn’t see why the
50:37
infantry when they got there just didn’t
50:38
follow his horse droppings around to see
50:41
how they got where they were going
50:43
because it’s just and when you stand
50:44
there the ground just lays out the
50:47
camera is Little Round Top we’re
50:49
standing on this little road here
50:50
there’s of the ridge goes just like this
50:52
and we drop back this
50:54
our and we just come around go around
50:58
the back row and we end up where the
50:59
camera is and nobody can see us
51:02
I mean you can see it all from right
51:03
there can see how so you could have to
51:07
find another thing to get Longstreet up
51:09
okay that was not going to work that one
51:11
he should have been able to figure out
51:12
he did things he didn’t start to get his
51:17
column ready to march until his last big
51:19
aid was up and now this is inside the
51:22
beltway minutia but I mean this is he
51:24
waits for a bit for his very last reggae
51:26
to get out before he starts to get ready
51:28
to go why didn’t he get ready to go and
51:31
when the last Brigade comes up go but
51:34
didn’t he do that because he didn’t
51:35
agree with the orders and yes yeah what
51:38
kind of subordinate does that because it
51:39
doesn’t agree with the orders I mean
51:42
really if he really doesn’t want to do
51:44
it then say General Lee I can’t I’m
51:46
sorry I disagree so violently with what
51:49
you’re doing that I think you should put
51:51
someone else in my place that’s what you
51:53
do if you’re not gonna try your best
51:55
that’s what you do get out of the way I
51:58
hate to play you called Payton so I’m
52:01
only going to run at half speed on this
52:03
account I know the ball is gonna come to
52:04
me but I’m not going to run very fast I
52:06
think you should have called a slam yes
52:09
kind of a go you don’t get to do that if
52:12
you’re the receiver and Peyton Manning
52:14
calls the play or you what our I
52:16
guarantee you you won’t be a receiver
52:18
very long if you do that two or three
52:20
times and he knows you’re doing it you
52:23
don’t get to do that in an army and and
52:27
I do and I think you put your finger
52:29
right on I think that’s exactly what
52:30
Longstreet was doing he’s making a point
52:32
but let’s save him for next week we’ll
52:35
talk about Longstreet a lot next week
52:37
we’re supposed to focus on need and Lee
52:41
Jenny right I’m buying you affirm but I
52:46
thought we were doing tonight
52:47
that’s why I feel so empowered but
52:50
talking about we and just shouldn’t go
52:54
in across some timing
52:56
that’s a huge that’s what I had actually
52:58
intended to start with tonight but this
53:00
is sort of stream of consciousness the
53:03
way we’re coming out this so now we’re
53:04
back in the aftermath of
53:06
Chancellorsville right should he have
53:08
even gone
53:09
what does Alan know and think about that
53:10
well he kind of displays the argument a
53:13
bit yes and they’ll take it to the north
53:16
but it seems that it’s too aggressive
53:18
like Alan think you said pee on my ear
53:20
yeah
53:21
what should we have done according to
53:23
Alan I should have just gone a bit
53:25
defensively hunker down baby and select
53:28
the Yankees come to you just like at
53:30
Fredericksburg right oh I see the whole
53:33
points we talked about last class by
53:35
going to the Nord lure the army away
53:37
from Richmond you know using your army
53:39
to just dissipate making Morgan’s have a
53:43
call for peace but I feel like it’s a
53:46
huge hold of the guy and I don’t see why
53:48
the North with so many more men couldn’t
53:51
split their army and sack Richmond as
53:54
well as engaged Lee in Pennsylvania did
53:56
they all they just took him to
54:00
Pennsylvania right there I mean yes that
54:02
mate they left they left away what did
54:04
occur want to do when we march north he
54:08
wanted to go to Richmond but but why did
54:12
I mean but Lee understands what are the
54:14
realities what what would the northern
54:16
population say if General Lee’s headed
54:19
for Pennsylvania and the Army of the
54:22
Potomac goes the other way how is that
54:24
going to play behind the lines in the
54:25
United State is not it is not an option
54:28
there’s the biggest most famous rebel
54:31
army is in the United States what’s the
54:34
reaction you go get them and get them
54:37
out of the United States you don’t get
54:38
to go the other way but no they have
54:41
enough men to they can you babe I mean
54:42
there’s a how many armies do they have
54:45
next to Washington one one they have the
54:49
army Potomac what’s the army of the
54:50
tomek’s job deal with the army in
54:54
Northern Virginia where the army
54:55
Northern Virginia goes the army Potomac
54:58
god damn better well though or there are
55:00
going to be problems they’re going to be
55:02
tremendous problems for the Lincoln it
55:04
station so that is not an option to go
55:07
the other way not an option
55:08
Italy understood that even though hooker
55:11
having been crushed mentally by Li at
55:14
Chancellorsville wanted to do that I
55:17
still find that sort of hilarious that
55:19
the army commander would say well I want
55:20
to go the other way I know he’s headed
55:22
to the United States now’s my perfect
55:24
chance to go to Richmond but he didn’t
55:27
understand this Richmond is not the key
55:28
the key is Lee’s army so you thinking
55:31
sacrifice men we were just gone on
55:33
terrorizing Pennsylvania throughout I
55:35
mean I think there was no chance he was
55:37
going to sacrament there’s a zero
55:39
percent chance that politically he would
55:42
be allowed to do that this absolutely no
55:44
chance not a slim chance no chance that
55:47
he’s going to be allowed to do that
55:49
these are two Democratic Republic’s at
55:52
war this is one of the things we talked
55:54
about the first day politics and
55:56
military affairs are like this the
56:00
military the armies do not operate in a
56:03
military vacuum they operate in an
56:06
intensely politicized atmosphere and
56:08
people pay attention people being
56:10
civilians at home the boat pay attention
56:14
oh there’s no chase I’ll be right back
56:16
there in just a second oh sorry cuz last
56:18
class you said that he had to take the
56:22
army out of Virginia he said that yes
56:25
ledian yeah so how else you do that
56:28
without going to know that’s the only
56:30
way to do that we haven’t talked about
56:32
the main reason he said he wanted to get
56:34
it out of Virginia what’s the main
56:36
reason Lee wants to get the army out of
56:39
Virginia and then they want to give him
56:40
a chance to regrow there it’s logistics
56:42
he wants to give the farmers in Virginia
56:45
respite and he wants to get into
56:47
Pennsylvania and just siphon everything
56:50
his army can use out of that lush
56:53
central Pennsylvania countryside that’s
56:55
I think that’s the number one thing on
56:57
his mind
56:59
number two is he says you’re talking
57:01
about how big the armies are what is he
57:03
20 so he says if we don’t if we just sit
57:05
and wait what is going to happen we say
57:08
okay we won the Battle of
57:09
Chancellorsville I’m just gonna sit here
57:11
at Fredericksburg what’s going to happen
57:15
what’s going to happen what are the
57:17
federals could have do what are the
57:19
faendal is going to do in from Lee’s
57:21
perspective what does he say what’s the
57:24
scenario that he sketches out basically
57:26
he sees the war of attrition with the
57:28
north continuing to engage and bring the
57:30
war to the south one danger wherever
57:33
they choose to bring it he says they’re
57:36
bigger than we are they have more men
57:38
than we have if we just sit here we’re
57:41
going to allow our more powerful
57:42
opponent to take their time perfect
57:45
their plans and project their power at
57:48
the point of their choice and eventually
57:52
where does he say the army Northern
57:54
Virginia will end up yes it will end up
57:56
defending Richmond will end up in
57:58
Richmond and when he gets in Richmond
58:00
his view is the war is over
58:02
because it will end up as a siege and a
58:05
siege can only end one way with a
58:08
smaller force hunkered down and a larger
58:10
force enveloping it and he will do
58:14
almost anything to avoid death what
58:16
makes the comparison between Lee and
58:18
Washington wasn’t that was pretty
58:19
interesting yes Washington walking his
58:21
Lee’s idle right Washington let’s the
58:24
British take New York he lets them take
58:26
Boston you doesn’t have anything they
58:27
want we didn’t exactly let them take New
58:30
York they took New York the enthusiam
58:32
out but yes so the be moving into
58:35
Pennsylvania is basically the same as
58:37
Washington going to Valley Forge and
58:40
just kind of making his way down selves
58:41
and having to catch for loss at Yorktown
58:44
so from that perspective the war of
58:47
attrition isn’t a bad thing for Lee Lee
58:50
does not fight the war the way
58:51
Washington fought the revolution
58:52
absolutely Washington avoids big battles
58:54
but when Lee is afraid of this war of
58:57
attrition should he have been he’s
59:01
afraid of being besieged in Richmond
59:03
yeah he absolutely should have been what
59:04
how did the war in when he got besieged
59:06
in Richmond and Petersburg that’s when
59:08
the war ended yeah but like politically
59:11
the North was going to get tired of this
59:13
if we had avoided the big battle is that
59:15
fair to say if there weren’t big battles
59:18
the United States civilian population
59:21
probably wouldn’t have gotten tired of
59:23
it
59:23
as they got tired of it when their
59:25
soldiers were suffering hideous
59:27
casualties in these big bells it’s a
59:30
it’s a it’s this race for the
59:33
Confederates from Lee’s perspective a
59:35
race between attrition that comes with
59:40
winning the kinds of victories you’re
59:41
winning the depressed northern morale
59:42
and how quickly northern morale which is
59:45
going to have it is the North going to
59:46
give up first or we can run out of em
59:48
first that is the equation that Lee has
59:50
in his mind in an end the northern
59:53
morale proved resilient enough to absorb
59:56
a third of a million casualties and
59:58
still push on through all both came very
60:01
close in the summer of 64 not the
60:03
sticking to it I mean this close this
60:06
close you can you can make a great case
60:10
that it would have been better if Lee
60:12
hasn’t suffered so many casualties we’d
60:14
have to be an idiot not to make that
60:15
case but what you can’t supply and what
60:18
Alan Nolan could never answer I would
60:22
ask you how do you guarantee a supply of
60:24
Ambrose Burnside’s
60:26
to give you a bunch of battles of
60:28
Fredericksburg where you put your army
60:29
and really strong ground and your
60:31
opponent comes up and just attacks
60:32
uphill against you all day you only ever
60:36
found one of those guys in command of
60:38
the Union Army
60:39
excited about you know that that is what
60:44
caused the Union at that moment divided
60:46
what you do the same in the opposite way
60:48
because they would have all day fighting
60:51
uphill attacking a very entrenched
60:53
position they were going to lose I’m
60:55
Linda Park and right what worse what
60:59
you’re saying that while is that he
61:00
should have known that he would fail at
61:02
Gettysburg and should have known that
61:04
attacking a nindroid position uphill at
61:07
that moment is also the timing to be
61:11
affable
61:11
here’s the problem with that thinking he
61:15
did that it gains his mill in late June
61:19
18 he had a 50,000 man assault that
61:21
gains his smell biggest assault of the
61:23
war early that succeeded he had
61:27
assaulted Chancellorsville exactly two
61:29
months before the picket Pettigrew
61:32
assault where his infantry who were
61:34
outnumbered were attacking
61:36
who retrenched and they succeeded there
61:39
are and I think this is what led him I’m
61:42
not getting I’m just trying to explain
61:44
why I think he did this and it’s because
61:46
I think he believed in the end that his
61:49
infantry could just take care of
61:52
business no matter what the obstacles
61:55
because he had seen them do it in an
61:59
offensive mode 4 times before Gettysburg
62:03
but when you stand there and look across
62:06
you’ll stand on Cemetery Ridge and look
62:08
across at Cemetery Ridge and I mean you
62:11
I’m sure you’ll thank gosh we’re going
62:13
to line up here and walk over there with
62:17
people seven tenths of a mile with
62:19
people shooting at us with cannons and
62:20
mutlu whew it’s it’s it’s really
62:26
distressing to do that so should he have
62:30
nothing he had this great quotation
62:32
later he said i bided known that it
62:34
wouldn’t work even as dull a fellow as i
62:36
am would have done something different
62:39
but he didn’t know it wouldn’t work
62:42
Longstreet thought it wouldn’t work
62:44
and I think Longstreet Jim for all your
62:47
posturing about how I don’t like
62:49
Longstreet I think Longstreet’s idea was
62:51
better at getting Braddock Porter
62:53
Alexander’s idea is the best what if he
62:55
say Lee should have done after his big
62:57
victory on the first day Alexander says
63:00
there are three options and he says the
63:02
best one is one for the Confederates yes
63:06
hunker down we smacked the Federals
63:10
around on the first day they’re there on
63:12
this line here here we are on seminary
63:16
Ridge which is a nice defensive position
63:18
as well just we’ll hunker down and make
63:21
them attack us they never drive us from
63:24
positions said and Alexander said the
63:27
onus is on them to get us out of the
63:29
United States the place where Lee was
63:32
most disingenuous in his official report
63:34
is when he said that he the battle was
63:37
forced on him because his supply
63:39
situation was tenuous and in the essence
63:41
he had to attack that that is just not
63:43
true now Alexander calls him on that
63:46
he said well we stayed there for three
63:48
more days and fought a big battle and
63:50
then we stayed another 10 days north of
63:53
the Potomac if he had published that
63:57
book if Alexander had when he wrote it
63:59
he would have come in for incredible
64:01
criticism across the south incredible
64:03
for being so harsh on Lee anybody want
64:06
to do something else would leave right
64:08
now or shall we give this did this class
64:10
is no different than any other class
64:11
where it’s all about Lee we haven’t
64:13
spent much time on George media but any
64:16
kind of Lee aftershocks I’ll say after
64:22
I’ve made the answer to that note but we
64:25
are going to circle back to leave Mead
64:29
we’ve had a semi elephant defensively as
64:33
someone who was who did a very good job
64:36
in difficult circumstances I want to
64:39
hear someone offer a critique of need
64:42
that might not be quite so positive
64:44
if anyone reached that kind of
64:47
conclusion about it are you all need ice
64:49
in there so have a crack at a gym yes
64:58
that’s yes basically defending me and
65:03
saying that it really was a critical
65:05
place seemed to me to be mostly about
65:16
and it was you’ll see his he wasn’t
65:19
blown up but there were lots of
65:21
cannonballs coming around and then so he
65:22
left so the entire narrative of his
65:26
actions during the day seemed like he
65:29
wasn’t really interesting that much the
65:31
biggest effect that’s all I came out
65:33
about him was that he yes he did make
65:34
this a that one decision early on
65:36
brought everyone together to get
65:39
information out of a consensus
65:41
the decision but everything else seems
65:45
to just fall into place because the boom
65:49
commanders or his subordinates did their
65:53
job well or just kind of happened when
65:57
did he get to the battlefield when this
65:59
meat show up and get his birth the night
66:04
of day one how late on the night of is
66:08
almost midnight
66:09
so almost midnight so that’s
66:11
everything’s over with he has to make a
66:14
decision that night too I mean he there
66:17
he has a decision to make am I going to
66:19
stay here tomorrow or not what about on
66:23
the second
66:23
what are his biggest what’s his biggest
66:26
crisis on the second sickles yes what’s
66:34
what so what’s the deal with sickles
66:38
you’re George Gordon Meade what do you
66:41
think is happening on your line on the
66:44
second until you find out differently
66:46
you put your line together how are you
66:49
thinking what the hell are you doing
66:51
well no now wait a minute I said what
66:53
are you thinking before you find out
66:54
what’s it doing how would you put your
66:56
line together in a nice interior lines
66:59
on high ground you don’t probably don’t
67:01
even it’s right goes from it goes from
67:03
cold tail this is such a mess here now
67:05
we’re going to start over like you’re
67:08
doing with all these warranties
67:10
this is great we have boards and boards
67:13
co-ceo Cemetery Hill which confusingly
67:18
has the same initials Cemetery
67:22
there’s a little brown top so you think
67:26
you have a West Point case there so his
67:31
original lie on the second goes like
67:34
this and sickles is supposed to be in
67:37
the farthest left it kind of goes down
67:39
to Little Round Top that’s what he
67:41
thinks is is happening and then early in
67:45
the afternoon what does he find out cuz
67:47
happened what what is sickles done so
67:51
all the little kids work advance here’s
67:53
the peach orchard which is higher than
67:56
so sickles has just taken his his core
67:59
this is the Emmitsburg Road coming into
68:02
town he’s taking his core he’s put it
68:04
one division there and then the other
68:06
one my map is so bad it comes down to
68:09
Devil’s Den which he will see and he
68:11
didn’t what did he tell me about this
68:16
nothing did not tell me he did this so
68:21
now the Union line just stops right here
68:23
and what’s the weakness of sickles isn’t
68:27
that sickles the point is that this is
68:28
higher than this ground and sickles is
68:30
sensitive about that because of what
68:32
happened to in the Chancellorsville and
68:33
when you go there you’ll see that the
68:35
peach orchard is higher than this but
68:37
when he moves out there what is the
68:41
defensive problem with his being out
68:43
there along the Emmitsburg Road you can
68:45
just get cut off this flank was in the
68:48
air this life is in the air he’s just
68:50
floating out there all by himself with
68:52
his ten thousand men and so needs
68:56
what’s needs reaction to this what is
68:58
possible reactions to this what could he
69:01
do when he finds out this is HAP I don’t
69:03
mean he cursed he cursed a lot but Mead
69:05
Mead had a very rich vocabulary hubbub
69:08
vulgar isms and blasphemies that he
69:12
would deploy at the drop of a hat but
69:13
apart from that what what are the what
69:17
could he do here okay darn it sickles
69:20
has gone out there golly
69:23
no oh fudge he’s not worried supposed to
69:26
be he tried he thought about but yeah he
69:33
went out and looked
69:34
why can’t he order him back because this
69:36
started fighting the Confederates are
69:38
showing that’s right the Confederates
69:40
are showing up so yes he does he pulls
69:48
in troops from two other Corps to try to
69:50
shore up this this weak line and
69:53
somebody made the semi dismissive
69:57
comment Justin I don’t know who did that
69:59
what me did was move people around and
70:01
he gets a lot of points for that that is
70:04
essentially what he does his move people
70:06
around he moves them around so that his
70:09
life is strongest at the point of
70:11
greatest danger he moves them from culty
70:15
virtually strips everybody from our far
70:17
right CH site and moves them down here
70:21
so there’s hardly anybody left up there
70:23
anyways other people it’s all about
70:25
supporting his left flank
70:27
which is in real danger throughout the
70:30
fighting on the second and he uses these
70:33
inferior lines very well so he doesn’t
70:35
good he does a very good job of that but
70:38
that would be something you’d have to be
70:42
a really bad officer not to know how to
70:45
use interior lines because that’s one of
70:47
the things that everybody knew I mean
70:49
that’s a huge advantage everybody
70:51
nobody’s but still let’s give him points
70:52
for that he did a good job of that what
70:56
else did we do that we find that
70:58
especially impressive to us I mean I
71:00
could never understand why sequels who
71:02
went what why did sickles go out there I
71:05
could not Michelle wants to know why I
71:09
have chalk all over my pants and why
71:11
sickles went out from his line on
71:13
Cemetery Ridge why did he do that and
71:16
somebody but not you Jim I don’t want
71:19
you to answer this I want somebody else
71:21
to answer tab and Chancellor bill yeah
71:23
higher position those order to get it up
71:25
called Hazel Grove yes and what happened
71:28
when he gave it up that thing the United
71:31
States positive battle that’s right
71:33
other than that nothing bad happened
71:35
done canary so was so it’s all about
71:39
Chancellorsville it’s all about
71:41
Chancellorsville what does I mean he
71:43
just says and he told Henry hunt who’s
71:46
the union artillerist our chief of
71:48
artillery I can defend better from that
71:50
high ground than I can from back here
71:53
but the fallacy in that is have enough
71:55
men to make a line that makes sense by
71:59
going out to the peach orchard and
72:00
defending that high ground so that’s a
72:04
good argument in theory but on the
72:06
ground it doesn’t stand up all those
72:09
sickles dependent and sickles said What
72:12
did he say his move did retrospectively
72:16
when they’re arguing about who’s his
72:18
arguments what the caused me to send
72:23
reinforcements sooner which was kind of
72:26
again for to it what did it do with the
72:27
Confederates according to sickles
72:30
anybody picked up on that yeah and get
72:33
like saved the Union mind because the
72:35
killer would have gotten around their
72:36
flank because they were throwing dirt
72:38
around hops so the confederation said
72:40
attacked him up in the peach orchard and
72:42
that cave it’s almost like a delaying
72:44
action made them focus there and they
72:47
broke a lot of their strength trying to
72:50
carry this ground that sickles took up
72:52
and by the time they over ran the peach
72:54
orchard and wheat field they ran up
72:57
against Union lines that by that point
72:59
we’re able to hold on the high ground so
73:01
he argues it saved the battle and his
73:04
critics said it came this close to
73:06
undoing the army you idiot political
73:11
craven political Tammany Hall tool you
73:14
almost lost the battle by what you did
73:17
in his responses no that’s exactly wrong
73:19
by moving out there I made Longstreet
73:22
deployed farther away than he would have
73:24
and he broke himself on my line which
73:27
was farther to the West than it would
73:29
otherwise yes I would I wouldn’t part of
73:35
this because he was and no one else was
73:44
yes and so there was already a lot of
73:46
bad baggage to begin with and so there
73:49
was no trust there’s no respect and so I
73:52
don’t
73:52
I wonder if sickle would have made the
73:55
same decisions to disobey the orders had
73:57
they actually gotten along if he made he
73:59
had gotten along right regardless the
74:01
chance or a hooker had given him the
74:02
orders or someone that he got along with
74:04
him given the orders I think that I
74:07
think there’s no way we can let him off
74:10
the hook for not telling his army
74:12
commander what he was doing I mean you
74:13
just can’t do that you can’t move an
74:15
entire infantry Corps out of where
74:19
you’re ordered to be without letting
74:21
your commander know what you’re doing so
74:23
I don’t think we can let him off the
74:24
hook there but I do think he is it’s
74:27
it’s understandable because he is an
74:29
almost complete outsider in the high
74:32
command but not only because he got
74:34
along with hooker who was a West pointer
74:36
but because he is he’s a politician he’s
74:38
not a West pointer he has this very
74:40
clouded and controversial and notorious
74:44
history that he brought with him as well
74:47
and was not considered the gentleman and
74:49
was not coming he just doesn’t fit in it
74:50
doesn’t fit in at all with this in the
74:53
culture of the Army of the Potomac
74:55
but even saying all of that he’s still a
74:58
soldier and a subordinate and you just
75:01
can’t do that even if it’s the right
75:03
move if he had told me initially that
75:06
meat cooks that okay you go there and
75:08
we’ll do this in this and this as we set
75:10
up the line the Marines I’m sure are
75:12
going to talk to you about that line the
75:15
line in a number of places that hooker
75:17
that sickles put together didn’t have
75:19
enough infantry to make an infantry line
75:21
there are lots of places where you had
75:22
artillery and in the Civil War you can’t
75:26
have artillery all by itself it can’t be
75:28
by itself because it’s absolutely
75:30
vulnerable to infantry if it’s all by
75:32
itself so it was a terrible line didn’t
75:34
have enough men to do that it’s on the
75:37
other hand it took the Confederates a
75:40
lot of casualties to get
75:41
sicles line so and it’s impossible to
75:46
decide which of them is absolutely right
75:48
or absolutely wrong but I don’t think
75:52
it’s impossible to decide that he can’t
75:55
have a principal subordinate who is
75:57
freelances this way in a situation like
76:00
that but I but I want somebody to argue
76:02
with me if you think that that if there
76:04
are circumstances when you should have a
76:05
subordinate do that when it makes sense
76:08
right poor hands wet up let’s go isn’t
76:10
that the way that lead kind of ran
76:12
things right I mean to a certain extent
76:14
certainly not to to the point of
76:16
insubordination but he didn’t he push
76:19
down certain decision-making power and
76:21
say if you get to a point in the battle
76:22
and I’m not there and there’s a decision
76:25
to be made you make it and you become
76:27
the aggressor and so it seems like if
76:29
sickles had been in Lee’s army Lee might
76:32
have almost praised him for taking that
76:35
kind of an initiative I mean at what
76:38
point is an insubordination and at what
76:40
point is it just taking the initiative
76:42
and taking higher ground that you see is
76:43
better it’s that the problem with taking
76:47
the higher ground I think I think that’s
76:49
a great way to put it I think there
76:50
would be much more leeway in Lee’s army
76:52
than in the Union Army to do that but
76:54
the problem with the action is that he
76:56
doesn’t improve the army situation there
76:59
he creates this salient where he is hope
77:01
or is now completely vulnerable and
77:04
unless people do other things to rectify
77:07
that situation he’s he’s put at risk
77:10
basically 1/5 of the army here so I
77:13
think that’s his problem it’s it’s not
77:15
as if he’s pushing and aggressive he’s
77:17
not going after the Confederates here
77:19
he’s just funding the defensive
77:20
alignment but I think your point about
77:23
whether this kind of behavior at least
77:26
to a degree would be more acceptable in
77:28
Lee’s army I think the answer is yes to
77:30
that how can you explain good then we
77:33
didn’t let Longstreet or Hood go around
77:36
the flank in us exactly Lee Lee’s not
77:38
part of that equation
77:39
that’s Longstreet being a bad
77:41
subordinate again in my view hood should
77:43
have been allowed to do that Lee would
77:45
have allowed to do that because Lee had
77:48
allowed Longstreet to do
77:50
at Manassas he had allowed Jackson to do
77:52
it at Chancellorsville you get to the
77:53
ground and you see that the situation is
77:55
different and you know something that I
77:58
don’t know then you’re allowed to adjust
78:01
the circumstances on the ground and
78:02
that’s what hood was asking to do
78:04
it’s Longstreet who said no General Lee
78:07
told us to do it this way and we can’t
78:09
change General Lee’s orders
78:10
well Longstreet knew that wasn’t true
78:12
because Longstreet had changed these
78:14
orders at different points because all
78:16
of that on Longstreet I put 100% of that
78:19
on Longstreet because Lydia is way back
78:21
up by Lee has no idea what’s going on
78:23
and they’re not communicating with Lee
78:26
Longstreet is just saying Lee would not
78:28
allow that and so we can’t do that
78:34
getting back to me so the part of waters
78:37
kind of imposing your will of the enemy
78:39
was there ever a time that the Meade
78:41
attempted to do that because I feel like
78:43
he was just reacting a large part this
78:45
is all reactive yes right and so that
78:49
brings us to the next lead question and
78:51
Mary I saw your hand go up I’ll come
78:53
here in just a minute
78:53
what where is Meade’s opportunity to
78:56
impose his will on the army Northern
78:58
Virginia does he have any option
79:06
as as he’s watching the detritus of the
79:10
picket Pettigrew assault in front of him
79:14
it seems and when he has the sixth core
79:17
right behind him which is the biggest
79:19
core in the army the Potomac and it
79:20
hasn’t fought yet it seems like there’s
79:23
an option there for him to do something
79:25
I saw other hands go up too is that what
79:29
everyone was going to say now what’s the
79:32
counter-argument to that why what would
79:37
prevent his doing that give us some
79:39
factors late Brian it’s late is it
79:43
almost dark what time’s it get dark in
79:47
Gettysburg Pennsylvania in July of 1863
79:53
what isn’t there in the summer of 1863
79:57
the reason daylight savings time gets
79:59
dark around 8 by 8 o’clock
80:02
through the guard so imagine you’re in
80:05
Arizona and that’s what time is like in
80:08
Pennsylvania what and what time in the
80:11
afternoon is Pickett’s charge over with
80:14
about four we’ve got four hours of
80:16
daylight left now that’s either a lot of
80:21
time or not much time to move 15,000 men
80:24
around and get them to do something it
80:26
takes a long time to move a lot of men
80:28
around and get them in position to do
80:30
something why else might he not have
80:36
done anything here yeah
80:43
the tonier voice is so you’re I mean
80:46
your heart is not in that and another
80:48
thing maybe this and that and you know I
80:50
might have said you have like that or
80:51
yeah it seems like after a victory like
80:54
that put yourself in need skin what’s
80:58
going through your head right now
81:00
they’re retreating
81:02
I’m sorry go ahead here make your point
81:04
before I thought you also or I my
81:07
impression from the reading
81:08
that he was still worried that the
81:10
Confederates might recruit that they
81:12
weren’t done he’d seen so much success
81:15
letting them mess up on their own behalf
81:17
that I think that probably gave him the
81:20
confidence to just hang on the defense
81:22
even let him attack again right Scott
81:25
well the if I was him I would have felt
81:30
like we won this battle and I don’t want
81:33
to risk anything we would have exhaled
81:34
and thought wow but the big argument in
81:38
the essay I believe is that like in all
81:41
this repositioning everything every
81:43
other chorus had gotten like so mixed up
81:45
and everything was just kind of they
81:48
were this defensive position and it was
81:51
all patchwork and to Hancock was wounded
81:54
and if the reason three courts I think
81:57
it said yeah had all been badly wounded
81:59
and to try to regroup and get people
82:02
where they needed to be deleted charge
82:04
would have been very difficult and I
82:08
think your point about me he’s really
82:10
new on the scenes this is Earth’s huge
82:12
battle he’s in charge of the entire army
82:13
to see success and then say okay and now
82:16
I’m going to go
82:17
the Confederates firm and the you know
82:21
leadership styles stuff it seems like
82:23
that would be a big stretch for Emily at
82:26
this point yeah I personally think
82:30
that’s a lot of what’s going on but just
82:33
flip this the scenarios though can you
82:35
imagine that Lee would let an
82:38
opportunity like that go by I really
82:41
can’t imagine that I think he would have
82:43
put something together and tried to do
82:45
something – because it’s chaotic I mean
82:48
it wait
82:49
how many we’ve been I can’t remember I
82:51
know I asked him how many of you been to
82:52
Gettysburg how many they’ve stood on
82:53
Cemetery Ridge and looked I mean you
82:56
know what that Vista is like and to see
82:58
nothing but defeat and chaos on the part
83:03
of your opponent as far as you can see
83:07
in both directions in front of your line
83:08
I mean that is something Porter
83:12
Alexander he talks about the Union
83:14
experience of Chancellorsville when they
83:16
started to retreat from the clearing of
83:19
Chancellorsville and Alexander hurried
83:21
his guns his battalions of artillery
83:23
down into position to where they could
83:26
fire into this is he put a defenseless
83:29
mass of retreating man he said that’s
83:31
the part of a battle that can be
83:33
denominated pie that’s what you wait for
83:36
that’s what you dream up and then you
83:38
just inflict the greatest possible
83:41
damage at that point and that’s not
83:43
happening in the wake of the picot
83:45
Pettigrew assault it’s not at all what
83:49
about over the next several days what
83:52
what happens over the next one what is
83:54
Lee what date is Lee retreat the port
83:59
same day Vicksburg surrenders God is on
84:03
the side of the United States is what
84:05
the people in the United States decide
84:07
it’s the fourth of July and we’ve won
84:09
two big victories so Lee hands for the
84:12
Potomac
84:13
what is he fine
84:18
he’s retreating in this gigantic
84:21
rainstorm the rivers up and he can’t get
84:25
across how many days before he can get
84:29
across and ten days he can’t get across
84:36
and how much fighting takes place in
84:39
those ten days
84:42
no it’s God but but that’s probably good
84:46
for the Union because at least the way
84:49
that Alexander described it they’ve
84:51
become so entrenched in that defensive
84:53
position even though that their backs
84:55
are to the river into the wall that they
84:58
were like hoping for a battle at that
85:00
point they were they were I’ll just ask
85:04
you to flip this around again the
85:05
Federals are hunkered down along the
85:07
Potomac they’re about forty-five
85:08
thousand of them and there are 80,000
85:13
Confederates who are coming after them
85:15
and they want the Confederates to attack
85:18
I think the can think it’s just it’s
85:20
just an interesting contrast in mindsets
85:25
or cultures of command or whatever you
85:28
want to call it it’s a very striking
85:30
contrast it really is it’s I mean Lee is
85:36
encumbered by these huge trains of
85:38
wounded man I’m trains wagon trains they
85:40
call them trains his train stretched
85:43
total supplies and wounded he has more
85:49
than 40 miles of trains on different
85:52
roads heading for the Potomac forty
85:54
miles as he leaves the battlefield that
85:57
seems like a pretty vulnerable target
86:00
yeah I’m shocked even if the union’s
86:03
head and kind of surrounded them or
86:05
Indian just lightly engaged you have
86:08
kept them from crossed they can’t cross
86:09
if they’re engaged wait yeah they’re not
86:12
even pressing all-out attack but just no
86:13
need to harass and then definitely half
86:16
of them yeah but they can’t cross if
86:18
they’re under fire right and in the end
86:20
Lee gets across in one night crosses his
86:23
army in one night he did the same thing
86:25
after Antietam one night that’s
86:28
incredibly efficient going across the
86:30
Potomac there it’s I I think I think
86:36
Meade is in a really hard position and
86:39
does a really good job in a lot of ways
86:41
but I can understand Lincoln’s
86:44
frustration in the wake of Gettysburg
86:48
I really can relying upon the council
87:02
officers I didn’t get the sense that
87:05
there was a big boys repelling there’s
87:09
not there’s there’s there’s not there’s
87:13
no one saying you must you’ve got to let
87:16
me do this just let me go even if no one
87:18
else goes let me know I think
87:30
I think it’s cultural I think it’s I
87:33
think that the whole reaction on the
87:36
part of these union officers is part of
87:39
this McClellan culture that was so
87:43
profoundly important in the forging of
87:47
the army and it’s absolutely and the
87:49
clouds absence makes no difference and
87:51
is still there even though McClellan
87:53
isn’t there anymore and this most
87:55
aggressive corps commander is Hancock
87:57
and Hancock is his wound is really badly
88:02
wounded and and Reynolds his most senior
88:06
corps commander is dead so not that he
88:09
was that aggressive but that may be part
88:11
of it so you’ve got new people in
88:13
command of those Corps to just as usual
88:15
as new and who knows what he’s going to
88:17
do now you have new people in command
88:19
and sickles so there’s somebody new in
88:21
command of the 3rd Corps in command of
88:23
the 1st Corps incoming it’s in command
88:24
of the 2nd Corps but the 6th Corps
88:28
hadn’t even thought it’s the biggest one
88:29
in the Army it seems like the 6th Corps
88:31
would have been available for at least
88:36
light harassing duty something something
88:41
Scott is another kind of positive on me
88:46
one of the things that I saw is a
88:47
contrast and images because and they
88:50
have just been because of the situation
88:51
was when the Federals were under fire
88:56
and and you know he was taking his
88:58
headquarters were taking fire he still
89:01
like got out there and went and like
89:04
checked in with almost around Anders and
89:07
what I mean they have a good story about
89:09
the he tells the story about the guys
89:12
hip standing behind the wagon and how it
89:14
didn’t give any more protection yeah
89:16
whereas it seems like me at least in
89:18
this situation is very removed
89:22
any of the actual combat and I know I
89:25
saw that as something that was an act of
89:28
valor to still be out there in the
89:30
trenches when he’s at risk right well he
89:35
definitely is moving around the
89:37
battlefield he lead acted that way at
89:39
Antietam moving all over the line and
89:40
coming under fire I think we pretty much
89:43
stayed close to where the Virginia
89:45
Monument is now when you’re there you’ll
89:46
have a good sense of where he was and he
89:48
was and just sort of yeah listening to
89:51
fighting to his left fighting to his
89:53
right and he’s not moving all around
89:56
nope nope I’m not sure what his presence
89:59
his presence down were hood in
90:01
Longstreet were would have made a
90:03
difference I think because i i’ve no
90:05
doubt leo said well sure move around
90:06
there that makes sense you can get clear
90:09
around the flank that way but anyway
90:12
hood didn’t get to go and then hood got
90:14
shot almost immediately
90:17
hideous wound a very bad wound for old
90:20
hood
90:26
nobody’s gotten a neat tattoo I guess
90:28
since we met last time not a single one
90:30
I think need but I’m also I have a real
90:35
sense you’re much more interested in Lee
90:37
here he seems more interesting to you
90:42
why is that how why is he more
90:44
interesting to you so take us back
91:00
Alexander account he was even proper
91:04
enough to go to Tennessee and I think
91:06
Longstreet Montreat want wanted to yeah
91:08
yeah oh no no absolutely and it’s a
91:17
question it underscores how important he
91:20
was because virtually everybody else we
91:22
talked about this I think we did I can’t
91:24
remember I’m pretty sure we did they
91:27
debated this in April and May the
91:28
Confederates how to allocate their
91:30
resources and most people politicians
91:32
generals and Jefferson Davis favored
91:35
weakening Lee and reinforcing either the
91:38
army dependent Vicksburg or Braxton
91:40
Bragg’s army which was essentially
91:42
defending Chattanooga and they made good
91:46
arguments and but Lee said no and in the
91:49
end Davis
91:50
wouldn’t go against me which is a
91:52
measure of the argument in a loans are
91:57
in him the two books that you are
92:00
looking at non Connelly that argue that
92:03
Lee was just one of many generals he
92:05
says the same as all the others he’s not
92:06
the same as all the others he’d be they
92:08
get five votes and he gets five and a
92:10
half boats in this Lincoln when he took
92:13
when he pulled his cabinet and everybody
92:14
voted no and he voted yes and then he
92:16
said the eyes have it it’s that kind of
92:18
thing with Lee it’s hard to go against
92:21
the only guy who ever wins anything for
92:23
you it’s really hard to do Harriette
92:25
anything though if we move so far you
92:28
don’t remember what
92:29
going to say well I think it’s
92:31
interesting that we find leave we
92:34
definitely may because we brought a lot
92:36
more about him but at the end of the day
92:38
I’d rather be mean with the right
92:39
strategy than charismatic slightly
92:42
dogmatic and Lee with the wrong strategy
92:44
so it’s just really interesting to think
92:47
that Mead because he didn’t go on the
92:50
offensive to be more likely his harshly
92:52
criticized and Lee who basically loses
92:55
the war because he will not do anything
92:58
but be the aggressor now you’re
93:01
channeling now I know him that’s right
93:03
Lee loses the war because he’s too
93:05
aggressive you could also say that means
93:07
not be you don’t say means not be more
93:09
likely because obviously he’s not be
93:10
more like grant who also would have done
93:13
something to hurt the rebels after
93:15
pursuing grant would have been all over
93:17
them to me does empower people though
93:21
right like he just empowers the top
93:23
level at the decision-making point and
93:25
then expects people to listen well by
93:29
empower you mean listens to their
93:31
arguments and then makes it yeah sure
93:34
yeah he does he does yep I wouldn’t say
93:38
that I think you know you look at the
93:39
two people that from the war that are
93:42
still have these huge sizes these are
93:43
Lincoln and Lee and I think that the
93:44
reason they had this perceived or
93:47
publicly perceived ideology that they
93:49
were operating on and I think that’s
93:50
what people like find fascinating that
93:52
they were so yeah there’s a slower Lee
93:56
being driven by it is like love for home
93:58
and Lincoln major by you know his like
94:02
love of country or however you know and
94:05
the whole nation and so I think that
94:06
people find that fascinating that they
94:08
were so Dhirubhai that that that it like
94:10
dictated all of their actions and in
94:12
fact of the way and so I think that’s
94:14
why you know ends up being this
94:15
long-term fascination whereas me like
94:17
did the right things but it’s like
94:18
there’s not a backstory there I think
94:20
it’s harder to like connect with why he
94:22
did the things he did
94:25
and with Lee it’s also I think I mean if
94:28
you all of these qualities that people
94:31
like would have meant nothing if he
94:33
haven’t won a bunch of victories in 1862
94:35
and 1861 the matter oh he’s a great
94:37
Christian gentleman yeah but he’s a
94:39
loser let me toss to all these battles I
94:41
don’t care buddy but letting be a
94:43
preacher not a general because he’s not
94:45
many battles that’s the key that’s the
94:47
real people Lee is that he wins battles
94:49
and gives civilians hope that’s the key
94:53
all the other stuff is nice wonderful
94:56
dressing in gigas and scrollwork and
94:58
crown moldings but the basic thing is
95:03
that he’s successful and successful to
95:08
the degree that Gettysburg isn’t held
95:11
against him that’s what to me is one of
95:13
the most remarkable aspects of his
95:16
position in the Confederacy Gettysburg
95:18
essentially has no impact on his
95:21
reputation none none it’s amazing but
95:29
true amazing but true it really is okay
95:34
we’re a minute over will do subordinates
95:38
next week I’m going to bring a musket
95:40
next week I have to drive to Washington
95:42
or would have brought it tonight and who
95:43
knows in Washington with a musket what
95:45
might happen to me but I will have it
95:47
next week when we end what I already
95:51
gave you hardtack tonight I didn’t bring
95:56
hardtack know you’ll get hardtack to
95:58
hardtack and a must
96:01
you’ll be the only kids on your block
96:03
with hardtack I promise

20-30% of the Population is Authoritarian in Europe and US

44:03
sentences I apologize so I’m a New Deal
44:05
Democrat from Massachusetts just like
44:07
you what do we do about the thirty
44:10
percent of the population that believes
44:12
everything Trump says every conspiracy
44:15
theory they’ve been going like that
44:17
since the Southern Strategy started in
44:19
the 70s and under Reagan in the 80s I
44:22
can give money I can make phone calls
44:25
I believe in swinging left or whatever
44:27
it’s called but no red state person is
44:30
going to listen to
44:31
someone like me I am the elite and they
44:34
hate us 30 just you answered your own
44:37
question in a way we’ve always had 30
percent of the twenty to thirty percent
of the country has always been unfairly
far-right
and I think one of the
troubling things about now is you kind
of mainstream some of that old-fashioned
I’ll call it right-wing extremism that
leaves 70 percent of the country I think
you week there’s a majority to be had
there I guess I’m not worried that there
are a certain number of people who
believe anything you know some of our
opponents think of out of us seventy
percent I think your figure is broadly
right it might even be a little less
than thirty percent and we can make
democracy work on the basis of those
number point is not unanimity we need
majorities to accomplish ends we report
on a study in yes okay wait you can’t
leave them hang on the study and then
your point is the majority has spoken
they want to hear it yeah the pool of
the pool of people who would vote for
far-right parties in Europe hasn’t
changed the percentage for for thirty
years what makes the difference is the
activity at the leadership level
the
kind of Appeals that are being made the
the structure of the electoral system
that sometimes diminishes their
mobilization and activity and other
times brings them to the fore so we need
other voices at the leadership level
both in communities and nationally
46:21
speaking out and that will make a
46:24
difference my concern
46:44
many families you go home at
46:45
Thanksgiving and there’s somebody who
46:47
have had that on in almost as background
46:50
noise for 25 years and there’s a lot of
46:53
misinformation I can talk to people and
46:56
hear their pain and relate on that level
46:59
but if they’ve been hearing something
47:01
for 25 years and believe things that are
47:03
demonstrably untrue to be true my
47:06
question is a is it worth it to try to
47:09
deal with that and be is do you actually
47:12
think that that had an influence on this
47:14
past election yeah well we have a lot on
47:18
this in the book which by the way makes
47:21
a great holiday gift not too early for
47:25
Christmas
47:26
Monica thanks Pete he says it with every
47:29
book one ferocious Shana one for Yom
47:32
Kippur or another one for Sukkot you
47:37
know one we have a very large problem
47:39
when you lose the public square and when
47:41
people cocoon in and get the information
47:44
they want to there is a big problem on
47:47
the right because there’s a deliberate
47:49
attempt to lie and distort and give
47:51
people false facts and large numbers of
47:55
people believe those things three
47:56
there’s a term called motivated
47:58
reasoning where once you believe
48:00
something and you get incontrovertible
48:02
evidence to the contrary you are
48:04
motivated to deny that and believe
48:07
something that’s untrue and dealing with
48:10
that is an enormous problem in the
48:12
country and there’s no clear answer one
48:16
of the things we have to do is recreate
48:18
a public square and hope that if we
48:19
build it they will come
48:21
and we see some of this with public
48:22
media we need to find other ways to do
48:25
it and we need to be relentless in
48:27
fact-checking
48:28
even if some people aren’t going to
48:30
believe it to make sure that a larger
48:32
group of people who don’t pay a lot of
48:33
attention don’t come to believe that for
48:36
example Sciences evenly divided on
48:39
climate change and you they need to
48:43
understand reality and that is our job
48:45
as well
48:50
oh yeah yeah he wants he’s from the
48:57
other side yeah please do you mind
48:59
let could yeah go ahead uh yeah you’re
49:04
loud and clear
49:05
I grew up overseas was born in Nebraska
49:07
raised overseas in a British school
49:10
system and it was much more
49:12
authoritarian much more regimented like
49:16
the military can you hear me
49:18
let him speak please go ahead anyway the
49:21
Queen was in charge of the British
49:23
Empire so as a little kid I sang god
49:25
save the queen every morning rather than
49:26
the Pledge of Allegiance came back here
49:28
every six years to reaffirm my
49:30
citizenship and learn how to talk like
49:32
an American and spell like one and do my
49:35
cursive like one and from overseas the
49:40
the 60s we’re evolving and LA was
49:43
burning and the riots and the drugs and
49:45
sexual revolution and it looked like
49:48
from overseas that our country was just
49:49
starting to go down the toilet well here
49:52
we are 50 years later and divorce rates
49:55
have not gone down children are not much
49:58
more respectful of their parents the
50:01
legal system is under constant attack
50:03
from every source and within and without
50:06
terrorism’s running rampant the
50:08
economy’s in danger so my question is
50:10
we’re not progressing and somehow in the
50:13
midst of all that collapsing over 60
50:16
years Trump won I’m not sure how he did
50:18
I don’t like many of the things he’s
50:21
done or reported to me have done and if
50:24
Muller finds finds out that he’s part of
50:27
the swamp that needs to be drained I
50:29
hope he gets trained but until that
50:31
point whether it takes a year or two
50:33
years I think we should be polite
50:34
citizens and show that we’re mature
50:37
American world citizens and allow the
50:40
rule of law to work because that’s what
50:42
we’re based on hey are you done sir
50:45
thank you very much at first thanks for
50:48
nine hours of prayers for the country we
50:50
needed could I just say really quickly I
50:53
very much agree with something in what
50:57
you said which is we do want to uphold
50:59
our laws and our Constitution but part
51:03
of what that provides for is the
51:06
opportunity to dissent against the
51:08
government that obviously many of the
51:10
people in this room some probably about
51:13
half of the country now feels is under
51:16
some real threat from the president
51:19
because of how he behaves on a whole
51:21
series of issues we try to make the case
51:24
in our book that there is reason to be
51:27
vigilant against a president whose
51:30
habits sometimes resemble those of other
51:33
leaders who have undercut democracy
51:35
itself and we also think that the
51:38
policies Trump is pursuing paradoxically
51:41
are likely to worsen the situation of
51:43
many of the people who voted for him
51:45
particularly for example the repeal of
51:47
the Affordable Care Act but if you want
51:50
to talk to us I’d be happy to extend the
51:52
argument with you or the conversation
51:54
but I appreciate your speaking up thank
51:55
you sir
51:56
thank you we’ll get you afterwards yeah
52:06
how much time we spend in the general
52:09
media on diversion distraction denial
52:16
duplicity and not separating all of that
52:21
activity in great words and pictures
52:24
from do what’s really going on how can
52:28
we help great papers like the Washington
52:31
Post and New York Times which I added to
52:33
subscription because I want people to go
52:35
on to separate in the paper all of the
52:39
four DS there’s a distraction because
52:42
they still want to show it and to dues
52:44
what’s going on so we can look at that
52:47
and not get distracted at about you know
52:50
one thing I will say what each a and I
52:52
did one a on Friday it was actually
52:55
really wonderful exchange and they the
52:57
Week in Review section but we never got
53:01
to for example Tom Price four hundred
53:05
thousand dollars and taxpayer money to
53:07
take
53:09
charter jets and that’s one of the key
53:12
questions here the the kleptocracy this
53:15
sort of abuse of government some of this
53:17
gets drowned out by distraction and I
53:21
think apart what we’re hoping to do with
53:23
the book is to get people focused back
53:24
on these larger questions but there’s a
53:27
natural tendency both in a media looking
53:29
for eyeballs and for subscriptions to go
53:34
to the controversy and one of the things
53:36
that Trump understands in his gut
53:38
whenever the news Titans is to get out
53:41
there and create a new distraction and
53:43
some of what we’re dealing with today is
53:45
positive but let’s face it some of it is
53:47
an attempt to distract away from the
53:49
others Greg quickly he makes it really
53:51
hard because you can’t really not cover
53:54
what he said about Colin Kaepernick and
53:58
Steph Curry and you can’t just let it go
54:01
even though if you could make a very
54:04
good case that what we actually should
54:06
be talking about is the health care bill
54:07
and what the world they’re going to do
54:09
on taxes and we just got to figure out
54:11
how to do a couple of things at the same
54:12
time and not let one drown out the other
54:15
but it’s really hard I’m struck by the
54:18
absence of any discussion about
54:22
corporate power and citizens united in
54:25
this process and I was wondering if you
54:26
could comment on that my colleagues have
54:29
been fighting citizens united they
54:31
survive forever so it’s in the book we
54:33
have a big big chunk on campaign finance
54:36
and citizens united and and the problem
54:40
the problem is it’s it’s less corporate
54:43
power than it’s the power of a handful
54:47
of billionaires who who are looking to
54:50
amuse themselves and and to realize
54:53
their their fantasies about a world they
54:58
would like to create in this country and
55:02
so we have a number of suggestions for
55:04
it I mean it there’s no easy answer
55:05
especially after Merrick garland was not
55:10
allowed a hearing and a vote on the
55:13
court and now it’s going to be tougher
55:15
and tougher but we need a new
55:17
jurisprudence that will get us beyond
55:20
focusing simply on corrupt
55:23
to deal with the broader problems of of
55:27
representation accountability and in our
55:30
government so it’s it’s it’s less that
55:34
their divisions within the corporate
55:37
structure of America as we see very much
55:41
new and old and and and I think we
55:46
talked about but we also talked about
55:47
reforming the corporation in other words
55:49
I think you have a point about I think
55:51
we all agree you have a point about
55:53
corporate power and that’s why we have
55:56
this Charter for social responsibility
55:58
which is about reforming the corporation
56:01
because as long as the corporation is
56:03
focused only only on shareholder value
56:06
and the bottom line this is this is not
56:08
George Romney capitalism you know if you
56:11
go back and look at George Romney this
56:13
was a vision of capitalism that was
56:15
about making your companies successful
56:17
but also being concerned about the
56:19
commonweal in some sense what made the
56:21
company this society that made the
56:23
company’s successful and I don’t wanna
56:25
be nostalgic about that because
56:26
nostalgia never works but there was
56:28
something about that approach to
56:29
capitalism that was different than the
56:32
one that we’ve had recently social media
56:42
and Facebook for example and what seems
56:47
to be coming out is the possibility that
56:53
there are other secret ways of
56:55
influencing people who don’t have any
56:57
idea what’s going on social media more
57:02
broadly is one of the drivers here when
57:05
you have tribal media and it can be
57:07
amplified by social media and lies can
57:09
spread through a number of different
57:11
vehicles and all of us regularly get
57:13
emails from friends and relatives that
57:15
say can you believe this with a link to
57:19
something and just remember if you get
57:21
something that says can you believe this
57:22
don’t believe it but but there’s
57:28
enormous that’s right well it might be a
57:31
cat video that’s different
57:33
but there’s a larger point about
57:35
Facebook a couple of large points the
57:37
first is when Facebook agreed to give
57:39
out this information this was not Mark
57:42
Zuckerberg in a patriotic gesture saying
57:46
we are gonna open up they were pushed to
57:48
do it
57:49
they didn’t say much when they got a
57:51
hundred and fifty million dollars in
57:52
revenue but there’s another element of
57:54
this what those ads did was
57:56
extraordinarily sophisticated in
57:58
targeting particular groups of voters
58:00
and a very large share of the country
58:02
gets its information about politics from
58:04
Facebook somebody not a Russian gave
58:09
them that information at a sophisticated
58:12
level and what we can hope is that the
58:16
Muller investigation will dig down even
58:18
deeper and remember that this wasn’t
58:20
just about a presidential contest there
58:22
was targeting including WikiLeaks that
58:26
hit particular members of Congress and
58:28
then ads including from Paul Ryan’s PAC
58:32
that went after those a lot of people
58:36
here colluded and if we don’t get to the
58:39
bottom of this and if we don’t in sit as
58:41
an action make sure that states are
58:42
protected against problems in the future
58:47
then we will have lost our democracy
58:48
this is that as big a threat to
58:51
democracy as anything I can imagine in
58:54
under semi-normal times the President of
58:58
the United States would make it the
59:01
number one domestic priority to deal
59:04
with with a commission and with an
59:07
effort to see that we protect our
59:10
electoral system I think we’ll take two
59:15
more questions the people are at the
59:16
microphone yeah I’m a Bernie guy I want
59:19
to go back to the primary
59:22
that Bernie V Trump out pulled the
59:26
ever-lovin mess out of Hillary v Trump
59:30
do any of you think that Bernie could
59:33
have beat Trump in the general election
59:36
I’m I got to say I think I’m an agnostic
59:39
on that question I’m not certain here on
59:41
the first of all Hillary did suffer some
59:44
some of the votes against Hillary were
59:46
sexist so that doesn’t hurt Bernie
59:48
so that’s on that side and that Bernie
59:51
clearly carried some of the
59:54
constituencies where Trump made big
59:56
inroads working quite well we got ultra
59:58
ultra left socialists versus ultra ultra
60:02
right not so anybody I mean the device
60:05
not a man surprise I’ll bet there and
60:07
that that’s on the other side of the
60:08
equation other words I think Bernie
60:09
might have had some appeal to some of
60:11
the constituencies that Trump did
60:13
extremely well in I’m wondering what he
60:15
would have lost on the other side that
60:17
Bernie never came in for that very much
60:20
harsh attack from the Clinton campaign
60:22
because they assume they win the primary
60:24
and did not want to alienate Bernie’s
60:26
voters and we’ve never had a trial run
60:28
of what an anti Bernie campaign really
60:31
would have a looked to like so I think
60:32
there’s something on the side that he
60:34
could have won but I don’t think we
60:36
really tested the proposition very well
60:38
in the primary so I as I say I’m
60:40
agnostic on the question I I don’t one I
60:43
don’t think we should let some Bernie
60:44
people like Susan Sarandon off the hook
60:47
people who said Trump would be even
60:50
better than Hillary or there’s no
60:51
difference here have some responsibility
60:54
with what we’re getting now but second
60:58
you cannot look at a Bernie who went
61:01
through a primary process as a kind of
61:03
folk hero even though he lost soundly
61:05
you have to look at what Bernie would
61:07
have looked like after a billion dollars
61:09
coming from Russia the right and others
61:13
would have done to Bernie and you know
61:16
we had a mini scandal with Bernie and
61:18
his wife over the collapse of her
61:20
college he didn’t release his own tax
61:22
returns
61:23
just imagine what they would have made
61:25
out of little things there so never look
61:27
at somebody who didn’t run or didn’t win
61:30
that’s true Abidin as well without
61:31
thinking of what it would have been like
61:33
if they’d been through this meat grinder
61:35
last question thank you for moderating
61:41
thank you for hosting I look forward to
61:43
new location which I’m gonna call
61:46
politics pros and baseball near
61:48
Nationals Park that’s a great name
61:52
okay I want to incorporate baseball into
61:56
it an election is like a baseball game
61:58
you want to have your best pitcher in
62:01
the seventh game and every four years we
62:03
have a seventh game it’s called the
62:06
presidential election is this the best
62:08
two pitchers both parties could have put
62:10
on the mound for their teams do I have
62:13
to go listen to this nonsense oh the
62:15
game with 18 innings and we and it’s a
62:17
draw 1-1 because this pitcher wasn’t
62:20
available that pitcher wasn’t available
62:22
because he pitched yesterday Joe Biden
62:25
was available John Kasich was available
62:30
and if the party’s the Democratic our
62:33
Democratic the Republican Party pulled
62:35
us nonsence again guess what I may see
62:39
it in 2028 but I look forward to seeing
62:42
the first present knighted States from
62:44
neither party thank you we do agree on
62:51
we definitely agree the place is a side
62:53
bet on that just really quickly I be Joe
62:56
Biden obviously did run it would have
62:58
been a fascinating contest if he had run
63:00
against Hillary Clinton as norm said I
63:03
think you could run the same analysis
63:05
and see what would have happened to Joe
63:06
Biden he clearly had some assets that he
63:10
could have brought to the table but if
63:12
you look at Hillary Clinton put aside
63:13
whether people I suspect looking at the
63:16
voting of our area this had fairly
63:18
pro-clinton crowd but whether you’re pro
63:20
or anti Clinton it’s clearly a case that
63:23
she was one of the most qualified
63:24
candidates who was ever on the ballot
63:26
like or or not and that the and on the
63:32
Republican side what I really think
63:34
happened there is you had a tragedy of
63:36
the Commons where all of the other
63:38
Republican candidates were kind of
63:41
hoping either that they would be the
63:44
last person standing against Trump and
63:46
would beat him or in the case of Ted
63:48
Cruz
63:49
that he would eventually lose and then
63:52
Cruz would inherit the Trump support I
63:54
think in the Republican Party they let
63:57
him go through didn’t realize the danger
63:59
they faced until it was too late and
64:01
then he won the Republican nomination so
64:03
I think you can blame that on the
64:05
strategists inside the Republican Party
64:07
cuz I agree with you I like John Kasich
64:09
better than I like Donald Trump but we
64:12
can all agree that max scherzer would
64:13
make a great candidate okay and I think
64:18
we can all agree that you guys were
64:20
fabulous thank you all and we could all
64:29
agree that Debra is fabulous
64:31
[Applause]
64:42
you

Preacher Franklin Graham Claims Brett Kavanaugh Abuse Allegation Is Irrelevant

Rachael Denhollander, an evangelical Christian, was the first woman to speak out against former USA Gymnastics doctor Larry Nassar. In a tweet thread on Sunday, she said that part of the reason she waited so long to come forward was that she had watched friends and family members “eviscerate” victims who spoke out against much-loved candidates, pastors, teams or ministries.

“That showed me what they REALLY thought about abuse and what they REALLY thought about victims,” Denhollander wrote. “I knew it meant if faced with a choice between a survivor and their favorite ‘whatever,’ they’d attack the survivor.”

.. Amy Smith is an advocate for abuse survivors who runs Watch Keep, a blog that tracks reported incidents of sexual abuse in Christian communities. She called Graham’s comments “irresponsible and reckless” — and insensitive toward Blasey.

“The message he is conveying to anyone suffering from sexual abuse is clear: After a number of years, your pain is irrelevant and should be disregarded,” Smith told HuffPost.

.. She said Graham’s argument reflects a mentality she has commonly found among pastors ― that sexual assault is a sin to be handled quietly among the parties involved rather than a crime that should be reported to law enforcement. It’s no longer acceptable for people to wave off abuse allegations as irrelevant, she said, because the criminal nature of a sexual assault doesn’t change, no matter how much time has passed.

Christa Brown, a clergy sex abuse survivor who blogs about church cover-ups of abuse, said that Graham’s dismissive comments send a “dreadful” message to teenage boys and girls.

Sexual assault is not some ordinary “teenage” thing, Brown said. And it’s not appropriate for anyone to dismiss allegations of violent behavior.

The Problem With Facts

Just before Christmas 1953, the bosses of America’s leading tobacco companies met John Hill, the founder and chief executive of one of America’s leading public relations firms, Hill & Knowlton. Despite the impressive surroundings — the Plaza Hotel, overlooking Central Park in New York — the mood was one of crisis.

Scientists were publishing solid evidence of a link between smoking and cancer. From the viewpoint of Big Tobacco, more worrying was that the world’s most read publication, The Reader’s Digest, had already reported on this evidence in a 1952 article, “Cancer by the Carton”. The journalist Alistair Cooke, writing in 1954, predicted that the publication of the next big scientific study into smoking and cancer might finish off the industry.

.. So successful was Big Tobacco in postponing that day of reckoning that their tactics have been widely imitated ever since. They have also inspired a thriving corner of academia exploring how the trick was achieved.

.. In 1995, Robert Proctor, a historian at Stanford University who has studied the tobacco case closely, coined the word “agnotology”. This is the study of how ignorance is deliberately produced ..

.. In the UK’s EU referendum, the Leave side pushed the false claim that the UK sent £350m a week to the EU. It is hard to think of a previous example in modern western politics of a campaign leading with a transparent untruth, maintaining it when refuted by independent experts, and going on to triumph anyway.

.. The instinctive reaction from those of us who still care about the truth — journalists, academics and many ordinary citizens — has been to double down on the facts.

.. The link between cigarettes and cancer was supported by the world’s leading medical scientists and, in 1964, the US surgeon general himself. The story was covered by well-trained journalists committed to the values of objectivity. Yet the tobacco lobbyists ran rings round them.

  1. First, the industry appeared to engage, promising high-quality research into the issue. The public were assured that the best people were on the case.
  2. .. The second stage was to complicate the question and sow doubt: lung cancer might have any number of causes, after all.  And wasn’t lung cancer, not cigarettes, what really mattered?
  3. .. Stage three was to undermine serious research and expertise. Autopsy reports would be dismissed as anecdotal, epidemiological work as merely statistical, and animal studies as irrelevant.
  4. Finally came normalisation: the industry would point out that the tobacco-cancer story was stale news. Couldn’t journalists find something new and interesting to say?

.. “It’s as if the president’s team were using the tobacco industry’s playbook,” says Jon Christensen

.. One infamous internal memo from the Brown & Williamson tobacco company, typed up in the summer of 1969, sets out the thinking very clearly: “Doubt is our product.” Why? Because doubt “is the best means of competing with the ‘body of fact’ that exists in the mind of the general public. It is also the means of establishing a controversy.” Big Tobacco’s mantra: keep the controversy alive.

Doubt is usually not hard to produce, and facts alone aren’t enough to dispel it.

.. a simple untruth can beat off a complicated set of facts simply by being easier to understand and remember.

.. When doubt prevails, people will often end up believing whatever sticks in the mind

.. The account mentioned petrol cans and paint but later explained that petrol and paint hadn’t been present at the scene after all. The experimental subjects, tested on their comprehension, recalled that paint wasn’t actually there. But when asked to explain facts about the fire (“why so much smoke?”), they would mention the paint. Lacking an alternative explanation, they fell back on a claim they had already acknowledged was wrong

.. This should warn us not to let lie-and-rebuttal take over the news cycle. Several studies have shown that repeating a false claim, even in the context of debunking that claim, can make it stick.

.. The myth, after all, was the thing that kept being repeated. In trying to dispel the falsehood, the endless rebuttals simply make the enchantment stronger.

.. This sort of fact-checking article is invaluable to a fellow journalist who needs the issues set out and hyperlinked. But for an ordinary voter, the likely message would be: “You can’t trust politicians but we do seem to send a lot of money to the EU.”

.. he wished the bus had displayed a more defensible figure, such as £240m. But Lilico now acknowledges that the false claim was the more effective one. “In cynical campaigning terms, the use of the £350m figure was perfect,” he says. “It created a trap that Remain campaigners kept insisting on jumping into again and again and again.”

.. The false claim was vastly more powerful than a true one would have been, not because it was bigger, but because everybody kept talking about it.

.. The researchers began with data from 1.2 million internet users but ended up examining only 50,000. Why? Because only 4 per cent of the sample read enough serious news to be worth including in such a study. (The hurdle was 10 articles and two opinion pieces over three months.)

.. known as the “50 cent army”, after the amount contributors were alleged to be paid per post

.. “Almost none of the Chinese government’s 50c party posts engage in debate or argument of any kind . . . they seem to avoid controversial issues entirely . . . the strategic objective of the regime is to distract and redirect public attention.”

.. simply pick a fight with Megyn Kelly, The New York Times or even Arnold Schwarzenegger. Isn’t that more eye-catching than a discussion of healthcare reform?

.. “The tobacco industry was the leading funder of research into genetics, viruses, immunology, air pollution,” says Proctor. Almost anything, in short, except tobacco.

.. Proctor considers its main purpose was to produce interesting new speculative science.

Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease may be rare, but it was exciting news. Smoking-related diseases such as lung cancer and heart disease aren’t news at all.

.. Proctor describes it as “the opposite of terrorism: trivialism”. Terrorism provokes a huge media reaction; smoking does not. Yet, according to the US Centers for Disease Control, smoking kills 480,000 Americans a year. This is more than 50 deaths an hour. Terrorists have rarely managed to kill that many Americans in an entire year. But the terrorists succeed in grabbing the headlines; the trivialists succeed in avoiding them.

.. the truth can feel threatening, and threatening people tends to backfire.

.. But parents who were already wary of vaccines were actually less likely to say they’d vaccinate their children after being exposed to the facts — despite apparently believing those facts.

.. “People accept the corrective information but then resist in other ways,” says Reifler. A person who feels anxious about vaccination will subconsciously push back by summoning to mind all the other reasons why they feel vaccination is a bad idea. The fear of autism might recede, but all the other fears are stronger than before.

.. Reifler’s research suggests that you’ll accept the narrow fact that Turkey is not about to join the EU. But you’ll also summon to mind all sorts of other anxieties: immigration, loss of control, the proximity of Turkey to Syria’s war and to Isis, terrorism and so on. The original lie has been disproved, yet its seductive magic lingers.

.. Practical reasoning is often less about figuring out what’s true, and more about staying in the right tribe.

.. The Dartmouth students tended to overlook Dartmouth fouls but were quick to pick up on the sins of the Princeton players. The Princeton students had the opposite inclination. They concluded that, despite being shown the same footage, the Dartmouth and Princeton students didn’t really see the same events. Each student had his own perception, closely shaped by his tribal loyalties. The title of the research paper was “They Saw a Game”.

.. Some students were told it was a protest by gay-rights protesters outside an army recruitment office against the military’s (then) policy of “don’t ask, don’t tell”. Others were told that it was an anti-abortion protest in front of an abortion clinic.

.. Liberal students were relaxed about the behaviour of people they thought were gay-rights protesters but worried about what the pro-life protesters were doing; conservative students took the opposite view.

.. When we reach the conclusion that we want to reach, we’re engaging in “motivated reasoning”. Motivated reasoning was a powerful ally of the tobacco industry.

.. If you’re addicted to a product, and many scientists tell you it’s deadly, but the tobacco lobby tells you that more research is needed, what would you like to believe?

.. the industry often got a sympathetic hearing in the press because many journalists were smokers. These journalists desperately wanted to believe their habit was benign, making them ideal messengers for the industry.

.. “Groups with opposing values often become more polarised, not less, when exposed to scientifically sound information.”

.. scientific literacy can actually widen the gap between different political tribes on issues such as climate change — that is, well-informed liberals and well-informed conservatives are further apart in their views than liberals and conservatives who know little about the science

.. the role not of scientific literacy but of scientific curiosity.

.. “politically motivated reasoning . . . appears to be negated by science curiosity”. Scientifically literate people, remember, were more likely to be polarised in their answers to politically charged scientific questions. But scientifically curious people were not.

.. Curiosity brought people together in a way that mere facts did not. The researchers muse that curious people have an extra reason to seek out the facts: “To experience the pleasure of contemplating surprising insights into how the world works.”

.. Curiosity is the seed from which sensible democratic decisions can grow. It seems to be one of the only cures for politically motivated reasoning but it’s also, into the bargain, the cure for a society where most people just don’t pay attention to the news because they find it boring or confusing.

.. What we need is a Carl Sagan or David Attenborough of social science

.. One candidate would have been Swedish doctor and statistician Hans Rosling, who died in February