Trump’s 2,000 Lies – A Documentary

Donald Trump reached a major milestone according to the Washington Post by telling his two-thousandth lie since taking office. Telling two thousand lies is an unprecedented achievement in Presidential history, so tonight we look back at his many prevarications with a new mini-documentary that shows us how we got to this remarkable moment in misrepresentation. #pantsonfire

Joe Rogan Experience #1383 – Malcolm Gladwell

Malcolm Gladwell is a journalist, author, and public speaker. He is the host of the popular podcast “Revisionist History” and his new book “Talking to Strangers: What We Should Know about the People We Don’t Know” is available now.

52:43
if I pretend to be a UFC fighter
you’re gonna spot my liar my lies in
five minutes because you know more about
the content than I do but let’s remove
but there you’re not catching me because
I look like I’m lying you’re catching me
because I’m saying something that’s
bullshit I have a good story about that
I really
a good story I used to think that I was
really good at spotting liars and then I
met this guy I met him through a friend
and that’s I give him myself a pass and
then I met him through this friend he
was a friend of a friend so I just
assumed he was okay because my friend is
a very good friend and this guy was
claiming to be this Brazilian jiu-jitsu
black belt and he was writing for this
online magazine that was like a well
read magazine in the martial arts world
and it was the Abu Dhabi combat Club
they were responsible for this big the
Abu Dhabi submission World Championships
is the biggest championships in the
world is very highly regarded high
prestige this guy was talking about
these fights that he had had and you
know people bullshit a little bit so you
give people a little bit of room for
that but then he was talking about this
particular particular move that he had
pulled off in a fight that he had just
learned from my friend and it’s a very
difficult move it’s called the twister
it’s basically a guillotine from
wrestling and it’s setup from position
called side control it’s really
complicated you have to wrap someone’s
leg around you have to roll onto your
left shoulder you have to get behind
them you have to grab their arm put it
over your shoulder grab ahold of their
spine and it’s essentially like a spine
lock it’s a very difficult move to pull
off and it takes a long time to master
to the steps it takes a long time to
understand the position so this guy
learned it and then a couple days later
claimed to have pulled it off in
Thailand and it was like it’s like one
of those scenes in a movie with a record
scratches and everybody just goes what
and I remember we were like what’s going
on so then my friend winds up rolling
with him rolling his sparring it’s you
do Jiu Jitsu rolling and he comes back
to me he goes there’s no fucking way
that guy’s a black belt it doesn’t even
make sense he goes he’s like he doesn’t
know what the fuck he’s doing like this
is really weird so he winds up having
this confrontational conversation with
him on the phone while I’m in the car
he’s talking to him he goes I want to
know what you are cuz you’re not a
fucking black ball so tell me what’s
going on
he says hey no no I’m a black belt in
Japanese jiu-jitsu it’s
friend it’s now time goes out wait he
tells it’s got to go fuck himself time
goes on the guy winds up killing someone
he winds up murdering this girl that
he’s having sex with murdering her
husband and he gets caught driving
around hurt his car the guys car after
he’s killed the guy and then he winds up
trying to recruit a friend to kill
someone there’s like this whole big
thing and he winds up going to jail
and he’s in jail now but I remember
thinking okay you don’t know shit about
catching and spotting Liars cuz you
didn’t you didn’t spot that guy’s being
completely full of shit like I thought
he was a little full of shit but I
didn’t know he was a like a complete
sociopath and a murderer yeah yeah so
this is an interesting question using
that scenario would you have done a
better job if all I gave you was the
transcript of this guy speech so there’s
this is a there’s a lot of interest in
this question that community of people
who study deception so there’s many
different I can suppose I’m trying to
improve my ability to spot lies I can we
can do three things

  1. I can listen to you
    face-to-face as you’re telling me
    something is either true or false
  2. I can
    we could do this entirely on the
    telephone so I don’t see you I just hear
    you
  3. or I can just read the transcript of
    what you say and tried to decide whether
    it’s true or false

and it seems to be
the case that we’re better when we just
when we remove sight and sound and all
we have are this the word the plain
words on the page
hmm there was the
there is what being present does is it
introduces all kinds of of noisy
information that just distracts us from
the core question of whether the truth
is being told so maybe it was maybe if
all you had was a transcript and as this
guy is describing this particular what
was the name of the movie it’s a twister
the twister
maybe as you’re looking at the way he
just and all you’re doing is focusing on
the precise way in which he describes
this very very intricate move and you
would realize Oh
he actually doesn’t understand what he’s
talking about and you would have seen it
clearly in that moment if you but maybe
there was something about his
presentation that threw you off the
scent it was the move itself it see
because if he just said oh I got I got
the guy in an armbar well a lot of
people catch people in arm bars it’s
it’s a very common move you learn it
first day of jujitsu yeah you can catch
someone someone makes a mistake in
you’re a white belt and they reach up
and you grab their arm you can catch an
armbar yeah twister is very difficult to
pull off very difficult yeah it’s only
been done in the UFC maybe once I think
chan-sung Jung the Korean Zombie pulled
it off once he may be the only guy maybe
one other guy ever yeah this guy was
delusional
so it was horseshit and the only thing
that we were taking into consideration
like he was fight supposedly fighting in
Thailand which turns out there was no
fight at all he’s a complete liar yeah
the only thing that we were taken into
consideration was maybe this guy fought
a scrub like he could have fought
someone who really didn’t know anything
he said let me try the twister on him
but then that’s like you’d have to be
beating the guy so badly you just would
end the fight you wouldn’t do a twister
on him
the only time you do it twisters if
you’re a highly skilled grappler and you
think you could put someone in the
position that they don’t understand
that’s a confusing position it’s a
position that there’s a common position
called back mount where you would choke
someone or you would transition to other
moves from there and he was almost there
but not quite there because you’re
caught you’re kind of on the side so
even seasoned grapplers occasionally
make mistakes and get caught in a
twister but you have to be a fucking
wizard to pull that off on somebody yeah
it’s not something you have to be really
good it’s not something that you can
just do so when he said he did it we
were all like what he was if he said he
had kicked the guy and knocked him out
oh that well that happens all this arm
you said he punched a guy hit him with
an elbow and cut him the referee stopped
the fight all that stuff is real that
happens all the time he chose this one
signature move of my friend Eddie and we
were both like there’s something wrong
here
yes something wrong here there’s a
hilarious version of this on kind of
Runner and on all the the running
message board is one called let’s run
which is sisters and they’re constantly
catching people who lie about their
marathon times it’s hot it’s a hilarious
well there’s all kinds of reasons but a
lot of it is it starts with the eyeball
test so they’ll be up you know because a
lot of marathons have to take pictures
of the participants at various points
during the race mhm and someone will
claim to run like a 240 marathon now 240
you do really good run it’s not
classroom is very good to be serious to
run 240 so they’ll eyeball someone who
claims to run 240 to say now but I mean
you start looking at them 10 pounds
extra pounds right there they should be
they should look like they’ve been
running they look totally fresh as a
daisy right now they’re what are they
60:22
doing wearing no shoes no 240 marathon
60:25
you know it’s like is that kind of
60:26
process and then cuz the second order
60:28
where they do complicated analysis of
60:30
splits and they do all this kind of
60:32
thing but it often begins with the same
60:34
thing it’s like these guys trying to
60:36
claim to be this is like no no no that’s
60:39
not working that’s like a I love those
60:41
Insider II well I have this thought
60:45
about how much culture shifted through
60:47
the internet and how much culture will
60:49
shift again in even more astronomical
60:52
way once we can read minds and I don’t
60:54
think we’re far away from now I think
60:56
we’re a few decades away from some
60:58
technology that allows people to
61:01
establish intent and to see thoughts and
61:05
I think they’re very there’s some sort
61:09
of theoretical work they’re doing on
61:11
this right now and there’s there’s
61:13
different models that they’re trying to
61:15
achieve I think that’s going to
61:19
eliminate a lot of the bullshit of
61:21
communication mm-hm and I think it’s
61:23
gonna happen really quickly just like
61:24
Google sort of eliminates a lot of the
61:26
bullshit of people telling stories about
61:28
something and someone goes what what
61:29
happened wait a minute what year and
61:31
they go good that didn’t happen and they
61:34
can find out like almost instantaneously
61:35
I think we’re gonna be able to figure
61:36
that out with people I think there’s
61:39
going to be a way where you can where we
61:42
can see intent and we can read minds
61:45
I don’t think we’re far away from that
61:47
yeah I mean I known this neural link
61:50
thing with Elan mush is very Elon is
61:52
very hush-hush about this is different
61:55
sort of electronic brain interfaces that
61:58
they’re trying to experiment with yeah
62:01
who wouldn’t wouldn’t you worry be that
62:04
if we read we’re able to read someone’s
62:07
thoughts mm-hmm intentions what we would
62:10
in fact discover is even more confusing
62:13
than what we know now in other words
62:15
maybe what’s inside my head right now
62:16
are 35 different thoughts and intentions
62:20
warring at with each other
62:22
murder scenarios yes mercenary then
62:24
Malcolm just sort of keeps everything
62:28
normal I think it’s totally true think
62:31
about it most of us there’s any number
62:33
of things think about that yes the list
62:36
of the list of possible things that
62:38
could come out of my mouth at this very
62:40
moment is infinite mm-hmm right it is
62:42
evident there are at this very moment
62:45
God knows how many scenarios swirling
62:49
around my head about what should I say
62:50
next right right and why is my intention
62:53
to try and make you laugh to impress you
62:56
to piss you off to disagree with you to
62:58
agree with you I mean it we can go on
63:00
and on yeah all those are in play so you
63:03
really want to look inside my head and
63:04
get you’re not gonna get clarity yeah
63:06
it’s gonna be a mess or we’re gonna
63:07
realize we’re all a mess yes like it’ll
63:10
make us feel a little bit better like oh
63:12
everybody’s out of their fucking mind
63:14
but what you want that yes you would yes
63:18
come on I don’t endlessly curious about
63:20
I know my mind is such a mess and
63:23
there’s so much chaos going on there I
63:25
want to know what’s going on in other
63:27
people’s I want to know how fucked up am
63:29
i or am i normal mmm oh yeah is it so
63:32
standard
63:32
here’s my fear I had many fears about
63:35
this kind of thing but my fear would be
63:36
as follows that um I cannot count the
63:40
number of times where I have had
63:42
reactions to things that people have
63:44
said in the moment that turn out to be
63:46
wrong
63:47
deeply and badly wrong right and one of
63:49
the things that I have learned as an
63:51
adult is too deeply distrust those kinds
63:53
of reactions and to wait and very often
63:56
what will happen in my case sometimes
63:58
the waiting takes so long
63:59
I’m the kind of person who sometimes a
64:01
month will pass and I will think back on
64:03
a situation and I’ll think oh my god
64:06
I totally misunderstood that this person
64:09
who I thought was a jackass is actually
64:10
someone you know a lovely person who
64:13
wanted to give a second chance to or
64:14
whatever that comment that someone made
64:16
that I thought was stupid is in fact
64:19
extremely thoughtful and insightful this
64:22
will happen in weeks months later
64:23
whatever if you were able to read my
64:27
mind in a moment you would judge me for
64:31
my mistake and not give me an easy way
64:33
to correct it and it was you would trap
64:35
me in like what if this would have had a
64:37
reaction to something you said in this
64:39
conversation
64:40
in which I said Jesus I can’t believe
64:42
that that’s dumb
64:44
and then I’m driving back to LA tonight
64:46
and I think oh actually oh that’s really
64:48
interesting I thought about the time I
64:50
don’t want you to short-circuit my
64:52
learning process about you I want I want
64:56
to give me the privacy of my my six
64:59
hours of thinking about what you said
65:01
and allow me give me that kind of time
65:04
to come to a reasoned and insightful
65:06
conclusion about how I feel that’s
65:08
interesting but we’re talking then about
65:11
only one person having the technology
65:14
because if you both have the technology
65:16
and there wouldn’t be any issue you
65:17
wouldn’t be confusion as to why someone
65:20
was saying something you’d you’ve a much
65:22
clearer path to understanding their
65:24
thought process and their intent behind
65:26
it really yeah I mean if one person has
65:30
it right then yeah I get it
65:32
yeah if I could read your mind oh I said
65:34
something and Malcolm thinks I’m a
65:35
retard like you know there’s that but
65:37
there’s another there’s another
65:39
possibility that both people have it and
65:41
this is also one of the things that
65:44
would be fascinating about this is one
65:46
of the things about forbidden words is
65:48
forbidden words carry with them intent
65:53
they have automatic intent right but you
65:57
can say the exact same word and have
66:00
different intent behind it if we could
66:04
understand clearly what your intent is
66:06
mm-hm
66:06
then taboo words would automatically
66:10
become meaningless
66:11
mean it’s not about sound you make it’s
66:14
not about forbidden sounds always
66:16
what it’s about is thoughts yeah and
66:18
what you’re trying to convey and what’s
66:20
happening to you as a human being who
66:21
are you like what what what is your
66:23
process for the way you communicate what
66:26
is your process for the way you’re
66:28
trying to develop these thoughts in your
66:30
mind and express them to people
66:32
well well part of the problem with that
66:35
is language right and part of the
66:37
problem with making certain aspects of
66:40
our language forbidden is you limit
66:42
people’s ability to colorfully
66:44
communicate and express themselves in
66:46
certain ways mm-hmm I think that alone
66:49
just eliminating that alone eliminated
66:52
and confusion and also highlighting you
66:55
know you could highlight real problems
66:57
with people’s thoughts
66:59
and the way people communicate but also
67:01
eliminate many problems and say oh he
67:05
doesn’t mean that like you could see
67:06
what he means like this is what this is
67:07
where his mind is you could see you
67:09
could literally see the thoughts yeah
67:11
yeah I guess I would also I mean let me
67:15
get let me throw out another
67:15
complicating factor it still leaves the
67:18
question of cultural context yes so of
67:21
course one of the things I got really
67:23
interested when I was writing my book
67:24
was how our kind of cultural frames of
67:27
reference profoundly complicate our
67:32
attempts to understand other people and
67:34
so in your scenario where I have some
67:37
kind of window into your thinking and
67:39
intention I still need to know in order
67:42
to make sense of you I still need to
67:43
have a very clear idea of the the
67:46
cultural kind of rules of the road that
67:48
you use mmm and they’re likely to be
67:50
different from mine sure particularly if
67:52
you know I mean I’m in Canadian you’re
67:55
not but imagine if the difference
67:57
between us was more profound if our eyes
67:59
you know
68:00
then you you’re still like like I was
68:02
there’s a really cool thing I’ve been
68:04
obsessed with um with memory I’m doing
68:08
only seems I’m memory in my in revisions
68:10
history this coming season
68:12
and I was reading about this really
68:14
fascinating experiment which is done
68:16
with Korean and American college
68:20
students adults essentially and what I
68:23
do is I give you three circles paper
68:28
circles and one is past one is present
68:31
one is future and I say those are three
68:34
concepts represent those three concepts
68:39
with these three circles so the American
68:41
kid has passed here present in the
68:45
middle future over on the right right
68:48
three independent circles the Korean kid
68:51
puts all piles all three circles on top
68:54
of each other now what does that mean I
68:57
don’t know what that means
68:58
I mean something interesting right it
69:00
means that they don’t they’re not
69:02
separating these three modes the way
69:05
that we are they’re certainly coming at
69:07
experience with a very different set of
69:09
assumptions so maybe so I think of the
69:14
civil wars a long time ago but if I’m
69:16
Korean maybe the Civil War is as present
69:19
in my kind of consciousness as something
69:22
that happened last week is that maybe
69:23
that’s not what that means I’m not
69:24
exactly sure I’m sort of guessing
69:25
because I don’t know that I haven’t
69:27
fully investigated but the point is
69:29
there are I’ve just given you one random
69:31
example there are way way incredibly
69:35
different rules that different cultures
69:36
use to organize experience so if I’m
69:40
looking at you and reading your thoughts
69:43
I have to know those rules because those
69:46
rules are sorting out how people so this
69:48
is only this is not not – I’m not
69:50
dissing this notion of that you’re
69:52
talking about I’m saying that it needs
69:53
to have another layer as well a cultural
69:55
level a culture of l’air we just kind of
69:57
alerts me to how you’re organizing
69:59
experience that certainly makes sense
70:02
it’s it’s interesting when you think
70:07
about like the Tower of Babel right like
70:09
this this idea that at one point in time
70:12
everyone spoke the same language and God
70:15
sort of set it up so that it was we were
70:18
never going to be able to really
70:19
communicate with each other because
70:20
everybody has a bunch of different
70:21
languages and we’ll never figure it out
70:24
that’s the sort of crunched up version
70:27
of it if there was a way to change the
70:33
way like all languages are essentially
70:35
little symbols that are written down on
70:37
paper or typed out and then sounds you
70:39
make with your mouth and they convey
70:41
intent if there was a way to do another
70:44
version of language a universal version
70:47
of language that’s eventually adopted
70:49
like I’m reading this book about these
70:51
people that were kidnapped by Native
70:54
Americans and they were assimilated into
70:56
the tribes that learned the language and
70:59
this happened over a course of a couple
71:00
of years and I was thinking like what
71:02
would that be like if you you know
71:05
that’s how you learn a language you’re
71:06
kidnapped by oh you know I mean yeah
71:09
like you got but if there was a new
71:11
language how long would it take for
71:13
adults to learn a new language if
71:15
someone came up with a new language of
71:16
completely universal characters and this
71:21
language is conveyed through this
71:23
technology rather than through your
71:25
mouth so it’s your your your thoughts
71:27
your thoughts interface with some sort
71:30
of technology it creates whatever
71:33
hieroglyphs some sort of visual language
71:37
that we all agree upon and then this is
71:39
universal this is universal throughout
71:42
all cultures yeah and the only thing
71:44
that we would be confused about
71:46
assumptions and rules as far as like
71:48
what’s okay well you could do that can’t
71:50
we kind of do that already in a sense
71:52
that we could have a universal language
71:54
and then we have a device you know
71:58
sitting on our phone or something yeah
72:00
that when we I’m in you know I’m in some
72:03
for I’m in Bulgaria mm-hmm and I’m
72:06
ordering coffee I speak it in the device
72:08
and it simply translates either
72:11
translates me directly into Bulgarian
72:12
that’s actually not that hard no or it
72:15
translates this into this common
72:17
language that the Bulgarian translator
72:19
services and if you think of the
72:21
technology at a sudden more advanced
72:24
level that is now it could be done in a
72:28
very seamless way like it doesn’t have
72:31
to be some bulky box mm-hmm it could
72:33
literally be that I am speaking in
72:36
English and
72:37
you’re hearing is there’s a filter and
72:38
what your what you’re hearing is this
72:40
other language well don’t don’t Google
72:43
buds or whatever they are the air you
72:47
know the air pod version of those Google
72:49
things I think there’s something some
72:51
technology that actually enables you to
72:53
instantaneously translate that yeah I’m
72:55
doing for you yeah although you hate for
72:58
Google to have one more thing over us
72:59
right it’s like not enough that they
73:01
should control nine-tenths of our life
73:04
yeah well we’re also gonna let them
73:06
control our communication I remember as
73:08
a kid read AI used to love Doonesbury
73:10
did you redo yes and there’s a hilarious
73:12
thing in Doonesbury where I forgot Hwang
73:14
chol Duke or somebody is going to China
73:16
and his uncle Duke Hunter has Thompson
73:19
yeah it was and he was appointed
73:21
ambassador I think he was imported
73:23
American ambassador to China and and
73:24
that was a joke and he would go and he
73:27
would meet with like the head of you
73:29
know the president China and he would
73:30
say the most incredibly incendiary
73:32
outrageous things and the translator
73:34
never trans anybody said would turn he
73:36
would say this a rageous offensive thing
73:39
and the translator was saying you know
73:41
the flowers are blooming today yeah
73:47
Jamie had a thought once that
73:50
hieroglyphs for 2019 are essentially
73:53
emojis oh yeah well it’s kind of what
73:59
you’re sort of was saying it yeah like
74:00
the internet you have to translate
74:02
English into bits mm-hmm and where for
74:05
the computer to translate it into an
74:06
emoji it’s almost I feel like that’s
74:09
almost what you’re saying although it’s
74:10
not exactly it’s a being is a beginning
74:12
stuff yeah it’s I want to yeah it just
74:15
seems like this is not the best we can
74:18
do
74:18
noise noises with your mouth and then
74:22
you know learning English is incredibly
74:23
complicated for someone who speaks
74:24
Mandarin advice averse yeah it’s all
74:27
very what if we we all said hey look
74:29
this is some new version of a language
74:32
like whenever there’s uh whether it’s
74:34
contact or whenever there’s some movie
74:36
about extraterrestrials Oh is a team of
74:38
scientists and linguists and geniuses to
74:41
get together and they go look we’re
74:42
gonna establish a universal language
74:44
they communicate with these people in
74:46
Close Encounters of the Third Kind it
74:47
was music dude dude dude
74:49
do that they would figure out some way
74:52
we’re gonna figure out a way to talk if
74:54
we had some enormous financial incentive
74:59
or some enormous crisis was in play and
75:02
we had to all communicate with the same
75:05
language and so remember when they were
75:06
trying to push them while you’re from
75:08
Canada the the metric system was
75:10
actually real over there I was real you
75:12
know when I was in high school they were
75:14
trying to push the metric system yeah
75:16
and I remember there was like a
75:17
concerted effort they’re like we’re
75:18
gonna have to learn the metric system
75:19
because a universal system that the
75:21
whole world uses and they gave up the
75:24
United States Divac why did why was this
75:26
possible in Canada not possible in
75:28
United States because we’re assholes you
75:30
guys are 20% less assholes at least 20%
75:33
there I don’t know how’s that possible
75:35
I’ve always thought the exact grew up in
75:37
Boston which is also cold
75:39
I always thought cold weather made
75:42
assholes cuz it’s like you just like
75:44
fuck it’s called fuck that fuck you fuck
75:46
you
75:47
cuz Boston is filled with people that
75:49
want to get drunk and fight and then a
75:51
lot of them are really mean which is a
75:53
great place to grow up you develop a
75:54
thick skin and particularly as a
75:56
comedian it’s a great place to start out
75:57
and do comedy we’re gonna learn how to
75:59
do it right I don’t think Boston is mean
76:01
because of the cold I think yeah I think
76:04
it’s Canadian well the coldest parts of
76:06
Canada like you know I know lots of
76:08
people lots of members of my family are
76:10
from Winnipeg which is seriously cold
76:13
nicest people nicest people yeah it
76:15
doesn’t make any sense that’s why I said
76:17
it does that my theory sucks yes I think
76:19
it’s the children of very rough
76:23
immigrants and they stayed in these
76:26
communities and there it goes
76:28
yes exactly that’s what I am yeah so the
76:31
the immigrants of these people that were
76:33
willing to take a risk and get on a boat
76:35
when there wasn’t even YouTube videos to
76:37
watch yeah these are savage people that
76:40
made it over here and they’re really
76:42
rough and they had rough childhoods and
76:45
they raised rough children and the
76:48
echoes of that persist on the east coast
76:51
of the United States see the amount of
76:53
drinking that went on in Irish immigrant
76:55
communities is there’s it’s funny
76:58
because I stumbled across years ago I
77:00
was I’ve always been obsessed with
77:03
drinking an alcohol in fact I’ve chapter
77:05
that on it in this book but um so years
77:08
ago turns out that the place in America
77:10
where alcohol studies as they’re called
77:13
we’re really birthed was New Haven which
77:15
makes pretend attitude yeah makes
77:17
perfect sense
77:18
so in the 50s a bunch of people get
77:20
really really interested in
77:21
understanding how drinking works and in
77:23
New Haven of course you have the perfect
77:25
model because you have two very large
77:27
groups of immigrants you have Irish
77:28
Italians right in all of knowing that
77:31
you’ve got those two to work with and of
77:32
course they could not be more different
77:34
in the way they drink so even in
77:37
immigrant Italian communities in the 50s
77:39
these are people who are in terms of
77:42
volume of alcohol consumed way up at the
77:46
top they’re drinking with every meal
77:48
they’re making you know wine and you
77:50
know in their backyards they are but the
77:53
levels of alcoholism are infinitesimal
77:56
the amount of like social dysfunction
77:58
associated with drinking camp I mean
78:01
it’s just not it’s negligible these are
78:04
the healthiest drinkers you can imagine
78:05
side by side are the Irish and I don’t
78:09
need to tell you that story is very
78:11
different why is it it’s super
78:16
interesting question
78:16
you’ve got so they’re not one groups not
78:19
richer than the other they come to
78:20
America not at the same time but there
78:22
are 19th century early 20th century come
78:25
to American large numbers there are some
78:27
you know Irish culture looks a lot but
78:30
it was Catholic right now there may be
78:31
Catholic in different ways but there’s a
78:33
syrup on the surface these are you’d
78:36
think that they would use the bottle in
78:38
the same way no the Irish are the the
78:42
Irish the men are slinking off to the
78:43
pub and in Italy everyone’s gathered
78:46
around a steaming bowls of pasta and
78:48
drinking like one and a half glasses of
78:51
wine mild homemade wine with your dinner
78:53
it’s like nine day yeah it’s
78:56
unbelievable
78:57
is it because one is a whiskey culture
79:00
because whiskey’s rough stuff I mean you
79:02
really can’t have much before you’re off
79:04
the rails yeah there there’s some of
79:06
that yeah the the attachment to wine in
79:09
the Italian community probably saves
79:11
them a good deal of their of
79:13
alcohol-related heartbreak
79:15
I don’t know
79:16
too much about the actual what the is
79:22
there a difference between the way
79:24
different alcohol effects is there’s the
79:26
wine alcohol actually affect you by
79:29
volume by by by the actual percentage of
79:32
alcohol does it affect you differently
79:33
than beer or differently than whiskey or
79:36
differently in tequila cuz that’s what
79:38
people always say oh if I drink tequila
79:40
I get crazy like people always have
79:42
these stories but is that true if you
79:44
have you had a certain percentage of
79:46
alcohol yes we equalize the the alcohol
79:50
concentration is it all the same in you
79:53
yes because for me wine makes me warm
79:57
and friendly and it makes me sleepy and
80:00
it mean it doesn’t make me energetic
80:03
whiskey makes me crazy like I think it’s
80:06
a crazy drug I think when people drink
80:08
shots of Jack Daniels they just want to
80:11
go whoa they want to get correct they
80:13
want to do dumb shit it makes them want
80:15
to do dumb things shots in particular
80:18
makes people want to do dumb things
80:19
makes people get crazy makes you Balad
80:21
that makes people Irish right Ben are
80:27
you saying well I mean quarter Irish get
80:29
away with it for a little while only a
80:31
quarter that’s it yeah mostly Italian I
80:33
always see you’re at the cusp of these
80:35
two drinking tradition yes yes well I
80:38
see
80:39
but Rogan you’re foolish you’re fooling
80:41
this was Rogan yes yes because we would
80:43
think that you were majority Irish with
80:45
that yes yeah and I could be dark Irish
80:48
if you looked at my view yeah I’m well
80:50
I’m you know I’m a reserved English and
80:55
Jamaican Jamaicans not big drinkers you
81:00
know in the same kind of the difference
81:03
actually fascinatingly of the many weird
81:06
alcohol facts if you look at young
81:09
people it’s like looks like a college
81:12
aged young people in America and look at
81:13
their drinking habits the black students
81:20
drink and get drunk markedly less than
81:24
white kids real differences in drinking
81:27
behavior by Ray
81:29
at that age Asian students don’t drink
81:31
much either drinking is like a it cycle
81:34
it’s like a white thing it’s like a
81:35
crazy white thing increasingly you know
81:37
or problematic drinking I thought that
81:40
was fascinating this fast name I don’t
81:42
know they I don’t know why that’s so is
81:44
it its revered in our culture more it’s
81:47
uh yeah I mean getting fucked up is
81:50
celebrated in white culture well this
81:53
you know in the alcohol chapter in my
81:55
book the I talk about all the strange
81:58
things that have happened with drinking
82:00
patterns on campus and I was struck in
82:03
doing that chapter I was interested in
82:05
that connection between drinking and
82:07
drunkenness and sexual assault on campus
82:10
because all of those the overwhelming
82:13
majority if you talked to people who
82:14
study sexual assault on campus they will
82:16
tell you that you almost never see one
82:18
of these cases where both parties aren’t
82:21
drunk right it’s which doesn’t explain
82:25
them entirely but it’s a huge factor in
82:29
making sense of what happens and when
82:32
you dig into that you see these like
82:33
really weird patterns first up when I
82:35
was in college I did not know and I went
82:38
to college in Canada not a teetotaling
82:41
population I did not know a single
82:44
person who had ever been drugged
82:45
blackout drunk and then now if you talk
82:48
to a 20 year old college student in
82:51
America they will name friends of theirs
82:54
who get blackout drunk on a weekly basis
82:57
what is the drinking age in Canada and
82:59
what was it when you were in college
83:01
what has ecology was 18 yeah I think
83:03
that might be a big factor I’ve been
83:05
talking to friends about this about
83:08
Europe about how in Europe particularly
83:11
in Italy in France you’re allowed to
83:13
drink wine at a very young age yeah and
83:16
the taboo aspect of it forbidden fruit
83:19
all that goes away
83:20
it’s a just it’s a I don’t think young
83:25
kids should be drinking because I think
83:26
it’s terrible for your brain development
83:28
but I think there’s a thing in keeping
83:30
them from drinking or making it illegal
83:32
where it becomes so taboo and so
83:36
intoxicating that they can’t wait until
83:38
they can legally do it or they try to
83:40
get a hold of it before it’s legal and
83:43
has a certain excitement to it that just
83:45
doesn’t it doesn’t have in parts of
83:47
Europe yeah
83:48
you’ve given it up kind of so there’s
83:50
all kinds of the things that are new are
83:53
way less beer and way more hard liquor
83:55
so yeah
83:56
hard liquor when I was in school in
83:58
Canada in the eighties 95% of what we
84:01
drank was beer not there wasn’t any
84:03
whiskey or even or tequila or vodka in
84:08
our party such as beer beer kegs cake
84:10
parties yeah
84:11
really hard to get blackout drunk on
84:12
beer I mean blackout to get the blackout
84:15
you’ve got to be get you gotta get to
84:17
like I forgotten what the exact number
84:19
10 drinks or something well it’s point
84:21
you got to blow like 0.18 or something I
84:25
forgotten with is a sort of magic number
84:26
where people said for everybody because
84:28
some people they just get gerbil eyes
84:30
like there’s some dudes they’ll have a
84:32
couple of drinks and they get shark eyes
84:33
you know those those dark yeah like
84:36
expressionless eyes like hey man you
84:38
still here yeah they’re just wandering
84:40
around like like a like a person with
84:43
doll eyes there’s nothin there
84:45
with your shoes back that is just at
84:46
what point does your hippocampus shut
84:48
down and you ceased the ability to have
84:50
the ability to make memories that’s just
84:52
that’s a very narrow clinical
84:55
explanation of so there may be a whole
84:57
different set of manifestations of
85:00
drunkenness that have to do with
85:02
alcohols effect on other parts of your
85:04
brain right
85:05
but blackout is just about your
85:06
hippocampus and past a certain blood
85:10
alcohol concentration your hippocampus
85:13
just goes offline essentially you just
85:15
pull the plug on it and then so nothing
85:17
that’s coming in is being stored Wow so
85:20
you can continue to communicate I could
85:22
be blackout drunk right now but does it
85:24
vary with people does it the number well
85:28
so it would it would vary depending I
85:32
think on drinking history and yeah but I
85:34
mean is a there is it’s there’s a kind
85:37
of a there’s a consensus figure where
85:39
most people I wish I it’s in my book I
85:42
wish I could remember I think it’s
85:44
something like 0.16 or something like
85:47
that if you think of the if the love the
85:50
level legal level for drinking forums
85:52
for driving is 0.08 I think it’s roughly
85:55
2
85:56
that level and most people at that level
85:59
will be at risk we’ll have at least the
86:01
beginnings of memory impairment mm-hmm
86:03
so that feeling when you get really
86:05
drunk at a party and the next morning
86:07
you can only remember little bits and
86:08
pieces of what happened that night
86:10
that’s because you’re your hippocampus
86:13
was posed at your moment of peak
86:15
intoxication your hippocampus was
86:17
starting to shut down
86:18
it just wasn’t taking it it’s really
86:20
interesting too because some of our most
86:22
interesting minds and some of the best
86:24
communicators relied on alcohol heavily
86:27
Mike and it made that like hitchens I
86:30
mean it made him a more interesting
86:32
communicator when he was drunk well he
86:35
would have a drink you know I mean right
86:38
like he would be on Bill Maher you could
86:40
tell he was lit and and and he was so
86:44
eloquent and so articulate but that
86:47
beautiful phrasing so remember though
86:50
that’s an interesting point and a
86:51
crucial point about blackout which is
86:53
your hippocampus doesn’t necessarily
86:55
control your your how articulate you are
86:59
or how fluid your speeches it’s just
87:01
about memory so Hitchens could have been
87:04
the most articulate person in the world
87:05
and just and but the next morning he
87:08
would not have remembered a single thing
87:09
he said on Bill Maher I mean I’m
87:10
assuming if he was blackout no but you
87:14
don’t know there’s fascinating stories
87:16
in the literature about when people were
87:18
discovering blackout in the 50s and they
87:21
would there would be these stories like
87:23
they would some guy would come in he
87:26
would wake up in Las Vegas and he would
87:29
say what am i doing in Las Vegas like
87:32
and then he would go and he would see
87:33
his clothes hanging in the closet and he
87:36
would say what what’s going on and then
87:38
he would like go down to the desk and
87:40
say what and he said well you checked in
87:41
last night and he would look in his wall
87:42
and he would see he had a plane ticket
87:44
from Cleveland and they would
87:45
reconstruct and there’s a in fact this
87:47
very story was told in the you know one
87:49
of the big sites medical journals in the
87:51
50s the guy reconstructs he’s a Salesman
87:54
living in like st. Louis who gets really
87:56
really drunk and then his hippocampus
87:58
shuts down and he continues to function
88:01
so it goes gets in his car drives to the
88:04
airport buys a plane ticket goes to
88:06
Vegas does he doesn’t know it is in
88:07
Vegas
88:08
does whatever he does in Vegas
88:09
and then wakes up like two days later oh
88:12
my constant hippocampus is suddenly back
88:14
online what am i doing in Vegas that is
88:17
two days two days so what is like what
88:20
is he you can you you like so that was
88:23
my point
88:23
I could be blackout right now and still
88:27
communicate you wouldn’t know it I don’t
88:28
it’s not like you can tell I can’t tell
88:30
whether you have a headache can I write
88:33
no clue so you don’t know what’s going I
88:35
mean until we come up with that machine
88:36
that you were talking about you can’t
88:37
tell that my hippocampus isn’t working
88:40
except if you answer if you asked me the
88:42
same question
88:43
this is how you the only way you can do
88:45
it you had a party you think someone’s
88:47
blackout ask them the same question over
88:49
and over again and see if they respond
88:52
like say why you asked me so literally I
88:55
would say wait did you say you’re uh
88:59
you’re a quarter Irish and then I would
89:02
you have to wait like say five seconds
89:04
and say Joe did you see her a quarter
89:06
Irish and in a certain way you’re gonna
89:07
say Malcolm white stop it if you don’t
89:09
say that you’re blackout drunk but if
89:12
you do if you could you be blackout
89:15
drunk and still have like a tiny memory
89:18
no you may just ask me is that okay so
89:21
the hippocampus doesn’t shut down all at
89:24
once so what it does is it shuts down
89:26
slowly so let’s imagine we’re both doing
89:29
shots so after I mean I’m quite sure
89:32
your capacity I’m I mean you like I’m
89:36
half your weight am i but I don’t know
89:39
what you are you’re like 200 pounds I’m
89:41
126 okay so we’re gonna deal with
89:44
alcohol very differently but let’s
89:45
assume we’re doing shots of tequila
89:48
there’s a point of where things start to
89:50
get hazy so you might remember that I
89:52
asked you that question you might not
89:54
and then as we keep drinking in our
89:56
blood alcohol levels get higher and
89:57
higher at a certain point your
89:59
hippocampus will completely like the off
90:02
switch has been thrown so it goes from
90:05
being sluggish and impaired to just
90:08
being down like and what brings it back
90:13
well your blood-alcohol level has to
90:15
fall to the point where it can work
90:17
again so you fall asleep and over the
90:20
course of eight hours of sleep you know
90:23
you’re
90:23
alcohol is processed by your liver blood
90:25
alcohol Falls hippocampus snaps back
90:28
into action
90:29
wow what a ridiculous drug to be our
90:32
most socially acceptable drug yeah
90:34
totally and then the Vegas thing where
90:37
they give it to you for free
90:38
Christy in a place where you can gamble
90:40
which is really sneaky yeah that’s one
90:44
of the weirder laws ever that if a
90:46
person could literally lose their house
90:48
while their blackout drunk crazy I mean
90:51
in retrospect imagine you were were we
90:54
let’s do a little ranking thing here we
90:57
have three vices and I’m I know exactly
90:59
where you’re gonna be going with this
91:01
but we have three things we want to
91:04
prioritize dope alcohol smoking right
91:13
cigarettes cigarettes you can ban one
91:15
Vashti rank them in order you could
91:18
start from scratch I’m saying Joe we’re
91:20
starting over
91:20
okay what you say goes rank you weak so
91:24
right now the way we have dealt with
91:26
these is smoking is is becoming the most
91:30
taboo of those three cigarettes mm-hmm
91:34
marijuana ii and alcohol is the one that
91:37
we have the least inhibitions about
91:40
right my argument would be that that
91:42
list is exactly backwards that it should
91:46
be alcohol should be the most taboo
91:50
marijuana should be actually not exactly
91:52
backwards it should be alcohol the most
91:54
abou cigarettes the second most
91:56
marijuana the third that’s how I would
91:58
do yeah I would agree with that yeah
92:00
yeah
92:00
so we’re basically we have it completely
92:02
upside-down but I think for some people
92:06
like look there’s obviously obviously
92:11
terrible things that happen to you when
92:13
you smoke cigarettes
92:14
mmm but every time is it Potsie
92:19
I’ve smoked a cigarette or two before
92:22
shows like I’ve smoked to say I mean I
92:24
mean or two I’ve never smoked two in a
92:27
row but I’ve smoked a cigarette before
92:28
I’ve done shows like Dave Chappelle gave
92:30
me one of his cigarettes recently Tony
92:32
hinge clips give me a cigarette I’m not
92:33
a cigarette smoker but there’s something
92:35
cool about the headrush that you
92:37
get when you smoke a cigarette I
92:38
hesitate to say that and this is a
92:40
person who’s done a lot of drugs I’ve
92:43
done a lot I’ve smoked a lot of pot and
92:45
I’ve done psychedelics and I’ll talk
92:47
about them openly
92:48
I have hesitation about telling people
92:51
that I’ve enjoyed a cigarette well
92:54
because because it’s because I think
92:55
it’s so bad for you it’s it’s it’s I
92:58
think when I talk about doing mushrooms
93:01
I think mushrooms are good for you I
93:03
think it makes you freak out I think it
93:05
illuminates parts of your consciousness
93:08
that I think a lot of people guard and
93:10
protect and shield and I think sometimes
93:12
doing something that breaks down those
93:15
walls is good for you ultimately overall
93:19
there’s a little bit of an adjustment
93:20
period but I think you learn something
93:22
about the normal state of consciousness
93:24
I don’t think you learn much when you
93:26
smoke cigarettes I just think there’s
93:28
just a little bit of a head rush that
93:29
you get out of it but I know so many
93:31
people that are sick from cigarettes so
93:33
many people that can’t quit them so many
93:35
people that have died from cancer I mean
93:37
I personally have known several people
93:40
that have died from cancer from smoking
93:42
cigarettes yeah so I hesitate in saying
93:44
it but I don’t want to be dishonest I’ve
93:47
had them yeah I don’t smoke cigarettes
93:49
though I’ve never bought a pack I’ve
93:51
that’s a cigar of smoke cigars I like um
93:54
sometimes I just think it’s a terrible
93:58
it’s a terrible thing to get hooked on
94:01
yeah yeah and as I would say the same
94:04
thing with alcohol I know people that
94:06
have had real problems with alcohol that
94:07
have been alcoholics and they have to go
94:10
to meetings and you know they’re on
94:11
12-step programs and you know I would
94:13
never offer them a drink mm-hmm but if
94:16
you said hey let’s do a shot right now
94:17
let’s celebrate we this is a wonderful
94:19
conversation let’s have a glass of
94:21
whiskey I can have a glass of whiskey
94:23
and not drink again it doesn’t bother me
94:25
oh yeah I don’t I don’t have that
94:27
whatever that is yeah but some people do
94:29
yeah I hesitate hesitating glorifying
94:33
that – yeah and for young people it
94:36
scares the shit out of me if I see I I
94:38
probably drank for the first time when I
94:40
was probably I was in high school I
94:43
think is probably 14 or 15 the first
94:45
time I ever got drunk with my friends
94:47
you know we got ahold of some Jack
94:48
Daniels
94:49
made me throw us the iron Melville
94:51
drinking age yes well you know it’s just
94:53
friends you know listen in the yeah
94:56
classic rock and getting drunk in
94:58
fosston but the it’s it’s something I
95:02
occasionally enjoy I think I enjoy
95:04
alcohol I like having a drink of wine
95:06
with a glass of wine with a meal I like
95:09
having a drink with friends occasionally
95:12
but I don’t have a problem with it and I
95:13
know people who do and so I feel weird
95:16
talking about it knowing those people
95:19
that do have a problem with it yeah yeah
95:21
with pot though the people that have a
95:24
problem with pot it’s rare and it’s
95:26
usually people that have some sort of
95:29
and I do believe there there is an issue
95:32
with people have some sort of an
95:33
underlying schizophrenic issue that
95:35
could come from especially high doses if
95:38
they smoked a lot of pot in one night
95:40
they can have a schizophrenic episode
95:42
I’ve actually seen it particularly from
95:44
edibles I’ve seen it um but that’s to me
95:48
that’s absolutely the least taboo and I
95:51
think there’s a lot of benefits to pod I
95:53
think pop makes you more sociable I
95:55
think it makes you friendlier mm-hmm I
95:56
mean some people get paranoid from it
95:58
but I think that’s what that really is
96:00
is marijuana illuminating how vulnerable
96:03
you actually are yeah you know that we
96:05
sort of protect ourselves from this
96:07
overwhelming existential angst that you
96:10
get when you get high on pot yeah and
96:12
people say oh I don’t like it it makes
96:13
me paranoid well you know the reality is
96:16
you’re vulnerable we’re all very very
96:19
very vulnerable and we just somehow or
96:21
another make it to like how old are you
96:23
56
96:24
I’m 52 we made it we made it to stage
96:27
somehow or another despite all the
96:28
paranoia we got here we don’t have to I
96:32
mean it’s right really you know life is
96:35
crazy we’re in these metal boxes with
96:37
combustion engines
96:38
you know like trusting the people next
96:41
to us going 60 miles an hour paying
96:42
attention not looking at their phone you
96:44
know it’s like it’s very left in then we
96:47
get in planes and who knows the fuck’s
96:49
going on with the engine this guy’s
96:50
flying it over the sky it’s we’re very
96:53
vulnerable all the time just diseases
96:55
and you know not to mention you know war
97:01
and all sorts of other things that could
97:02
float we know
97:03
mention everything earthquake fire yeah
97:05
yeah fires yes no my my thing on this is
97:09
simply the collateral damage yeah
97:11
so leave the individual out of it and
97:14
ask how much social damage is caused by
97:17
any of those things okay in alcohol in
97:20
act number one by a bullet yeah you know
97:23
what’s amazing to me is how the people
97:25
who make alcohol have get a free ride
97:30
it’s incredible to me like if I said to
97:33
you that I was on the board of Philip
97:37
Morris you would say that’s how come
97:39
that’s pretty screwed up yeah and you
97:40
would you would be you know a problem
97:42
with it if I said that oh I’m you know
97:44
I’m on the board of anheuser-busch you
97:47
probably would hit me up for tickets to
97:48
the Super Bowl mmm right is that the
97:50
same whereas there’s no in terms of the
97:53
amount of social damage what out what
97:55
anheuser-busch has created has produced
97:57
a hundred times the social damage than
97:59
what Philip Morris has produced Yeah
98:01
right like or you know so it’s like it’s
98:04
a it’s always puzzled about I don’t know
98:06
how it got it in our heads like to treat
98:10
one like it’s completely taboo and the
98:13
other we kind of shrug you know the
98:15
there are a bunch I was reading about us
98:17
recently how many colleges accept
98:21
not just accept alcohol advertising and
98:25
sponsorship but you go to a college
98:27
football game and you know Bud Light
98:31
will have will be an active sponsor of
98:34
the event will have some huge
98:35
relationship with the school this is
98:38
crazy
98:38
I mean it’s crazy right it’s like this
98:41
is the drug that is causing so many
98:44
problems for young people particularly
98:46
on campuses and the schools are hand in
98:48
glove with the manufacturers of it
98:50
because it’s socially acceptable because
98:52
I don’t have to worry about
98:52
repercussions because we gave it up we
98:54
gave it a in a way that they would never
98:56
have Marlboro Marlboro yeah oh my god
98:59
people would pick it yeah
99:00
where is it’s not you know I don’t know
99:02
that’s true it’s a strange kind of a
99:04
we’re so messy people are so messy and
99:08
that is that that’s a very good example
99:10
of how messy we are um now I’m
99:18
I hidden really for some because I
99:20
hadn’t realized you were from Boston why
99:23
are so many comics from Boston it’s a
99:25
hard place is that what it mean women
99:27
drunk guys first of all am i right am i
99:31
right in thinking there doesn’t seem to
99:32
be like why is it every time I turn
99:34
around and I listen to some comic and
99:36
they say well when I was growing up in
99:38
Boston of course you fellas a lot it’s a
99:40
lot there’s a lot and there are a
99:42
specific kind of it’s like the audience
99:45
is there have a very short attention
99:47
span they they’re they’re not gonna
99:50
coddle you if you suck they will boo you
99:52
off the stage it’s terrible for your
99:54
self-esteem when you’re young yeah
99:56
bloody scary but it’s it doesn’t just
99:58
build character it builds the correct
100:00
approach towards an audience that you
100:02
have to realize these people do not let
100:04
these people got babysitters they they
100:07
spent money they’re here they could have
100:08
been in a movie they could have done a
100:10
lot of the recreational activities
100:11
they’ve chosen to come to the comedy
100:12
club stop fucking around get to work
100:14
like like treat this like this is and
100:16
the consequences of bombing are horrific
100:19
right the feeling is it’s one of the
100:21
worst feelings a person can have yeah
100:23
so when was the last time you bombed
100:26
it’s been a while since I bombed bombed
100:28
but I’ve had jokes that ate shit yeah
100:31
well that’s this is visit process that i
100:33
go through every two years i put out
100:35
special and then i write a new one and
100:38
during the process of writing a new one
100:39
you don’t write it in a vacuum you write
100:41
it and then i bring that stuff to the
100:43
comedy store and fortunately with the
100:45
comedy store you’re doing 15-minute sets
100:48
with you know 15 other talented people
100:51
and so you you don’t have to be up there
100:54
for a long time and you get it in the
100:56
comp the the Comedy Store also the
100:58
audience is very unique in that a lot of
101:01
them understand that they’re going to
101:03
see these guys like Dave Chappelle and
101:06
Chris Rock and work out comedy how I see
101:08
they know it’s they understand it and
101:10
like you could joke around about it like
101:12
that bit sucks I swear to god that’s
101:13
gonna be good in about four months tip
101:15
puts that bits in the oven right now
101:17
because there’s concepts that you have
101:19
there you go there’s got to be a way to
101:21
make this work but that way that I just
101:23
did is not the way I will always trust
101:25
the reaction you get in other words you
101:27
don’t tell a joke it bombs and you say
101:29
actually I think it was
101:30
a problem not mine never that’s never
101:31
their problem there’s not a chance in
101:34
hell you can have a bad audience where a
101:35
good joke doesn’t go over because
101:37
they’re drunk and they’re not paying
101:39
attention or they’re heckling that’s
101:40
possible yeah but that’s the anomaly the
101:44
it’s if you have a bit and you think
101:46
it’s a great bin the audience doesn’t
101:48
laugh they’re right mm-hmm you know
101:50
maybe another audience would laugh maybe
101:53
you’re doing it in the wrong demographic
101:56
or what-have-you but most likely that
102:00
joke sucks yeah and most likely you have
102:02
these ideas and you need to figure out
102:05
how to rework them like Chris Rock told
102:07
me that that he says that famous bit
102:10
that I love black people I hate the
102:13
n-word right that bit he said took him a
102:16
year to work out a full year he said it
102:19
was bombing he couldn’t get it to work
102:20
right
102:21
he’ll fuck up his act but he knew there
102:24
was a way to do it and then it became
102:26
one of the greatest bits of all time it
102:29
became this incredible classic bit but
102:32
that was from him grinding just chipping
102:34
away at it reworking it bringing it
102:37
onstage it eats shit you bring it back
102:39
you go over it you ponder it you ask
102:41
questions of other great writers like
102:44
what do you think you know No maybe then
102:47
and then you try it again and it keeps
102:48
doing it he did does it a hundred times
102:50
or 200 times and then eventually it
102:53
becomes a bullet proof and then he gets
102:54
it down to that form that you see it on
102:56
his comedy special where it’s just boom
102:58
punchline BAM punchline boom punchline
103:01
BAM
103:02
and people like because it’s so good but
103:05
there’s a process to doing that and
103:06
sometimes you have this idea in your
103:08
head and you’re like I think there’s
103:10
something there I just got to figure out
103:12
how to get into their head yeah and then
103:14
I got to figure out how to make it in a
103:16
way like what’s the most palatable way
103:18
for people to digest this idea because
103:20
comedy is essentially a mass hypnosis
103:22
right you’re getting the audience to
103:24
allow you to think for them for a brief
103:26
period of time and so if you’re at your
103:30
best
103:30
the punchlines are sneaky they come
103:33
where you don’t expect them you take
103:35
people on this ride they’re assuming
103:37
because they’re letting you think for
103:38
them that you’re a thoughtful person
103:40
you’re not going to make them feel bad
103:41
for liking you and that’s one things
103:43
that people
103:43
you say something mean or something
103:46
thoughtless you betrayed yeah you
103:48
betrayed their trust because they’ve
103:50
trusted you to think for them yeah so
103:52
you have to be considerate about
103:53
people’s sensibilities and feelings you
103:56
know and when you’re especially when
103:57
you’re breaching a sensitive issue like
104:00
it you have to you have to dance you
104:03
have to do you have to figure out a way
104:05
to make this thing compatible and the
104:08
people’s thought patterns it’s funny I
104:10
you know I don’t I’m not a stand-up
104:12
comedian but I gave a lot of speeches
104:15
like in in conferences and corporate
104:18
settings which is a very in some ways a
104:21
very different animal in some ways quite
104:22
a similar animal but I’ve been doing it
104:25
for 20 years now and the thing I’m
104:28
always that blows me away is how
104:33
different audiences are hmm like and I
104:37
one thing that you after doing it for
104:40
about 10 years you start to get a little
104:42
bit smarter about reading the room at
104:46
the beginning to know who they are and
104:48
what and it’s you know it makes a
104:51
difference like there are some some
104:55
audiences are generous and they’ll if
104:58
they see the in my case the punchline is
105:01
not necessarily a joke but it’s the the
105:03
payoff to whatever story I’m telling
105:04
some people when they see it coming if
105:08
you think about it as a line mm-hmm
105:10
they’ll reward you the minute they see
105:11
it they see it off in the horizon yeah
105:15
and they encourage you yes yes some
105:17
people will wait until the last possible
105:20
moment and then some people will wait a
105:22
beat
105:22
after the punchline is over and then
105:25
think about it and reward you
105:27
those three audiences may that makes a
105:30
world of difference in how you tell the
105:33
story in your expectation going in in
105:36
you know because if you if you think
105:38
it’s an early rewarding audience and
105:40
it’s a late rewarding audience you can
105:42
get you’ll be ten minutes in and you’re
105:43
totally bummed out because you think
105:45
it’s a disaster but in fact it’s not
105:47
like and then you get I develop all of
105:49
these short hands about audiences I
105:52
don’t know if they’re true or not but in
105:55
my experience I remember once giving a
105:57
talk
105:58
to a group of engineers on a early on a
106:02
Monday morning in Minneapolis in
106:04
February so it’s freezing it’s 8 o’clock
106:06
in the morning they’re engineers and
106:08
they’re all white guys they’re like no
106:10
agents right an incredibly thoughtful
106:12
interesting audience listened to every
106:15
word but they are not gonna reward you
106:17
until they have thought about what you
106:20
said and they’ll wait like you know
106:22
there’s a five-second lag between
106:24
whatever payoff you give and their
106:26
response right if you go I’ve also given
106:29
a talk to like a group of teachers in
106:33
New Orleans so there you have a room
106:36
that is largely female that will be much
106:40
more diverse so maybe 50% black for
106:42
example 20 percent Hispanic 30% white
106:45
just way more they’re gonna reward you
106:48
the minute they see it coming their
106:50
teachers first of all so their whole
106:53
thing is about listening rewarding you
106:56
know seeing the best in something and
106:58
celebrating it yeah I mean completely
107:00
different and if you go into the
107:02
engineers in Minneapolis and the
107:04
teachers in New Orleans with the same
107:07
expectation you’re gonna it’s going to
107:09
be a disaster yeah right yeah teachers
107:11
just want to find a way to love you
107:13
right and and also their women women I
107:16
think my experience are far more
107:18
generous than men as audience I don’t
107:21
know overall yeah probably yeah but uh
107:24
so that like I’m I took a long time to
107:26
figure that out because you for the
107:28
longest time I would walk away from
107:29
someone I would think from some talks
107:31
and would think I just did
107:32
committed the worst possible offenses
107:34
you’re doing a different thing though
107:35
it’s your dance is very different right
107:38
you’re first of all you’re giving these
107:40
speeches and you’re doing it in these
107:43
corporate environments you’re doing it
107:45
in conference rooms I would imagine and
107:47
a different kind of halls and yeah
107:50
bright lights yeah I’m doing it at
107:53
comedy clubs theaters and arenas so
107:57
comedy clubs they know what they’re
107:59
getting into they’re in and it’s set up
108:02
like if you go to the Comedy Store or
108:03
The Improv right it’s a low ceiling it’s
108:07
a great hot mic his great sound system
108:11
there’s opening acts that warm everybody
108:13
up before I get there the stage is set
108:15
and it’s a an environment that it’s been
108:20
established for decades this is a place
108:22
to go to hear people tell jokes yeah
108:24
you’re doing it you’d say you don’t have
108:27
an opening acts you’re doing it
108:30
they don’t even know if you’re gonna be
108:31
funny they don’t know what you’re gonna
108:32
do you’re gonna talk yeah you’re gonna
108:34
talk about that I’ve been sitting in the
108:35
same air-conditioned arena for six hours
108:39
one small break I mean it’s there and
108:42
listening to really doing work yes you
108:45
know so it’s a yeah it is it very very
108:46
different yeah it’s a super interesting
108:47
I find it route it incredibly rewarding
108:50
and I also find it it’s sort of it
108:56
reaffirms my my my kind of faith in
109:00
humanity for some reason interesting
109:02
I really I’m very very happy that I
109:04
started doing it so doing it years and
109:06
years ago but just to communicate with
109:07
large groups of people that reaffirms
109:09
her faith in what way because I’m always
109:11
struck by how open I think a lot of the
109:15
rhetoric in our society now about how
109:17
divided we are and blood I just think
109:19
it’s I think we’re divided on line I
109:21
think we talked to people person to
109:23
person yeah we find a way to find common
109:26
ground yeah and you go to these meetings
109:28
and you know that half of the room voted
109:31
one way another half voted the other way
109:32
and that it doesn’t come up it doesn’t
109:35
block half of you from appreciating have
109:37
them appreciating what you’re saying
109:38
they’re totally open to to as long as
109:40
you are respectful and take the time to
109:43
explain what you think and why and what
109:46
and how it matters to them then people
109:50
will listen and engage and ask really
109:52
good questions and I don’t see so funny
109:54
that Washington is divided and online is
109:57
divided I don’t I just don’t see it else
109:59
mm maybe I’m not getting an accurate
110:03
picture of the whole country but in in
110:06
these you know give a talk a group of
110:08
whatever educators in New Orleans you
110:11
know you don’t see this I think when it
110:14
comes to political discussions that’s
110:15
when people get really divided because I
110:17
think they feel like they’re supposed to
110:18
be divided it was really interesting
110:20
video that I watched yesterday where
110:21
Donald Trump jr. was getting heckled by
110:23
these all right
110:24
characters for not being right-wing
110:26
enough I was like holy shit like this
110:29
this but I get a lot of pleasure and
110:33
watching that play out not because I
110:36
want Donald Jr to get heckled but
110:39
because I this is what I’ve always said
110:42
there’s people that are just extreme and
110:44
it doesn’t matter if they’re in an tyfa
110:47
or if they’re in the proud boys if
110:49
they’re far left or far right it’s the
110:51
same thing they’re just finding an
110:53
ideology and they’re taking it to the
110:55
extremist level and they’re angry that
110:57
people weren’t woke enough or they’re
110:59
finding an ideology and they take it to
111:01
the furthest level and they’re angry
111:02
people that are not separatists that
111:04
aren’t white supremacist they’re angry
111:06
people that like Mexicans at all than
111:08
any Mexicans I mean there’s there’s
111:10
people that are that racist that are mad
111:12
at subtle racism they’re mad at people
111:14
that there’s just people that are
111:18
extreme and you can’t make everyone
111:21
happy
111:21
it is impossible and some people don’t
111:25
want to be happy they want to find ways
111:27
in which you’re not woke enough they’re
111:29
their concern is not the overwhelming
111:33
good of the world harmony peace love
111:37
compatibility communication and
111:39
community that’s not where their concern
111:40
is their concern is finding ways you’re
111:43
wrong so finding ways that they’re right
111:45
and ways that you’re that you’re wrong
111:47
so they’ll they’ll find some reason why
111:49
you’re not woke enough and so it my
response to that was a was slightly
different although I think a lot of what
you’re saying is accurate the reason
they got upset with him was that he
wouldn’t do a QA
yes okay yes okay now
as someone who’s on his book tour and
has done been doing this for 20 years
let me just say you have to do the Q
yeah the Q&A; is symbolically crucial
it’s like everyone says okay I would
seize you get up there and you do your
prepared bit and it was like okay fine I
know you can do your prepared bit but
you’re asking me to spend $28 on a book
and what I want to know is are you
someone who is meaningfully engaged in
the ideas that you’re talking about in
your book
right so Q&A; is where you
prove that to me yes
prove that you’re thoughtful prove you
care about the stuff prove that you
wrote this
and someone else didn’t prove
all those things yeah he wouldn’t do it
I’m sorry
find it weird because he just did the
view which is like the worst way to have
a QA
I had fun of you but I’m saying and
that’s a choice there’s everyone’s
talking everybody over everybody yeah
you you really don’t get a chance to
express full thoughts yes yeah if he if
he could do the view he can certainly do
QA at you it was at UCLA was it was it
really was it but what was interesting
too is that what he was using as an
excuse was that the the left-wing media
is going to take his quotes and take him
out of context
dude I have no sympathy
for him well in that case no didn’t make
any sense doesn’t make any sense like
any sense just say something intelligent
an eyeful and you’ll be taken seriously
that’s the way the rule works well
there’s a whole video I mean if someone
takes it out of context you could always
like show the entire video
hey that’s
out of context why is he playing the
helpless credit stopper this Tainted
well I mean is someone who’s in you know
like I said look I got no sympathy for
that either listen I have no sympathy
for him either in that in this case I do
not I think it’s it’s not I found it
very amusing his wife or a girlfriend
113:57
forgotten what she is which of those
113:59
things she is she she then this is the
114:01
crowd about how the only the only way
114:03
they could get dates is online because
114:05
nobody would do you see that it’s like
114:06
rule number two after rule number one is
114:10
do the QA rule number two is don’t dis
114:13
the audience by by telling them they’re
114:15
all losers like it’s just not what do
114:17
you well there’s people you know that’s
114:20
a thing where people want to just get
114:22
get you
114:22
you got them so they want to get you
114:24
people are booing fuck you you lose no
114:26
no no you’re a loser
114:28
you know it’s just noises instead of gum
114:31
love love yeah you have a good one guys
114:35
take care
114:36
but instead you’re right do the Q&A; yeah
114:40
don’t don’t don’t even you know it’s not
114:43
that hard to answer questions I think
114:45
there’s a real problem with answering
114:46
questions in front of a crowd though
114:48
where people screaming out things I
114:50
think real thoughtful conversation
114:51
should be had one-on-one and it’s it
114:54
what if like we you and I having this
114:55
conversation it’s great but if there was
114:57
a third person there talking to we would
114:59
have to work that guy in or that girl in
115:01
we’d have to figure out when she’s
115:02
talking when we’re talking and if you
115:05
got another person okay now you got a
115:06
real problem now you have four people
115:07
and yeah it’s it’s very difficult if you
115:10
watch those panel shows some for some
115:13
reason the network news shows
115:15
post-election pre-election their
115:17
election covers they’ve still haven’t
115:19
figured that out they’ll get seven
115:20
people on they think it’s like more than
115:22
merrier and you like that like the
115:24
pregame shows on NFL yeah like they got
115:26
so many guys each one that says one set
115:28
yes and they’re talking over each other
115:30
and everybody’s trying to get a sound
115:31
bite off everyone has this prepared
115:33
thing this is zinger I’m gonna get that
115:36
Trump guy with this one and they’re
115:37
ready for it and they’re trying to
115:39
interject it and someone’s talking over
115:40
them and excuse me I’m talking and then
115:42
it degrades wait I want to use the
115:45
opportunity of being on the show to
115:46
issue a challenge to double-jump jr. oh
115:48
like just call me up Don and I will
115:53
accompany you on your book tour an
115:55
interview on you on stage respectfully
115:58
will do let’s let’s do a Q&A; you and me
116:02
we’ll ask you questions I’ll do it
116:04
do you want to do that yes that’s
116:06
something you want to do why do you want
116:07
to do that I think it’d be fun what do
116:08
you think would be fun about it well I
116:10
think it would be good I’m saying
116:12
anything that’s gonna not do it okay
116:15
so let’s be clear about a couple things
116:17
okay this not it would not be a stunt
116:19
I’m not doing it to do gotcha
116:21
I would like to read his book
116:24
thoughtfully and engage with him in the
116:26
ideas in it and do we see for myself
116:29
exactly thing I was talking about before
116:31
is is he does he want to meaningfully
116:34
engage with those ideas with someone who
116:36
doesn’t necessarily share them right
116:38
right and that would be for its I would
116:42
ask for an hour
116:42
mm-hm and we can do it in lieu of
116:45
audience Q&A; if he likes I will just
116:47
have a conversation with the Wednesday
116:48
so just a conversation in front of an
116:50
audience
116:51
Oh mmm that would be interesting I can
116:53
see that would you pay to see that yeah
116:55
I would do his book title is the same as
116:58
my 2016 Netflix title
117:01
it’s triggered I got there first oh
117:05
don’t beat about three years that’s
117:08
question number one I’ll say done I
117:09
noticed it time of your book is the same
117:11
as why are you biting Joe Rogan stuff
117:15
what’s going on over there
117:16
he probably didn’t know it existed Bill
117:18
Maher almost released his HBO specials
117:20
triggered – really yeah I was gonna call
117:22
it trigger – but at least he sent me an
117:24
email apologizing you know I’m gonna get
117:26
it you want to get there early well it’s
117:28
you know it’s not my term I wouldn’t
117:31
really care if bill used it or if Donald
117:33
Trump jr. used it he did obviously is he
117:36
done heard dawn he’s done he’ll come
117:38
dawn uh that’s a good question isn’t he
117:42
Donald Trump jr. on line but they think
117:44
they distinguish the dad is Donald oh so
117:47
they call him I don’t know that’s one of
117:49
things that could happen
117:49
presumably in our face off maybe we
117:52
should do why am i limiting it to an
117:53
hour oh yeah
117:55
let’s go Rogen rule let’s go like two
117:56
hours yes me and Don G right in the
117:58
second hour we really get into it yeah
118:00
because that’s what happens you could
118:02
keep it together people can keep it
118:03
together for 45 minutes you can’t keep
118:05
it together for three hours in three
118:07
hours you know who a person is you know
118:09
I couldn’t give a talk in Colombia and
118:11
the Colombians are take themselves in
118:15
the best way very seriously right they
118:17
consider themselves the most cultured
118:18
people do that America yeah and they’re
118:20
and they’re they think they speak the
118:23
most beautiful Spanish and I’m told they
118:24
they may as well they may well do and so
118:27
I was talking with the was gonna go this
118:29
little kind of lecture tour of major
118:31
Colombian cities and I was talking to
118:33
the organizer and I’d extend a question
118:36
you asked is well how long I should talk
118:38
for some period of time and then we’ll
118:39
do Q&A; how long do you think I should
118:41
talk and the guy goes I don’t know house
118:45
three hours he was dead serious and you
118:51
realize like this is the same soap when
118:53
Fidel Castro would give those six hour
118:55
speeches you realize it’s not just I
118:58
mean Castro a little bit crazy but
119:00
there’s also the art puck there are
119:02
cultures that have an expectation but if
119:05
you’re gonna go and hear somebody speak
119:07
it’s not going to be over in 40 minutes
119:09
right you have to commit to the to the
119:12
experience and they literally wanna me
119:14
to start at 9:00 and then
119:15
did noon weren’t the early campaign
119:18
speeches for people running for
119:20
president and the early days this
119:23
country weren’t they like that as well I
119:24
believe there were a long Affairs yeah
119:26
and then then you get to Gettysburg
119:28
Address which is what is it six minutes
119:30
or something hmm
119:31
oh no no or is it the inaugural I
119:34
forgotten one of Lincoln’s most famous
119:37
speeches very brief is incredibly brief
119:39
and you realize a now context where
119:40
people are used to hours and hours hours
119:42
what an extraordinary I mean it is think
119:45
about Lincoln as a kind of badass
119:50
entertainer not entertainer performer so
119:53
he walks into a world where everyone’s
119:56
thinking they’re gonna be there for two
119:57
hours he sets up there and he’s done in
120:00
five minutes he was what up just a Power
120:03
Move nastic like this is a good move
120:05
imagine him imagine him so he comes in
120:08
to his like aides and says this holds it
120:11
up and it’s you know you’ve seen in the
120:12
in the Lincoln monument on the mall it’s
120:15
two paragraphs ya know Ford what is it
120:19
I’m not Canadian four score and seven
120:21
years ago
120:22
yes blah blah blah blah do paragraphs on
120:24
they must have been like what these
120:26
people traveled by a horse and cart for
120:29
hours there you speak yeah right yeah
120:32
that’s it such a great move it is a good
120:35
move right we’re still talking about it
120:36
today yeah it’s unbelievably beautiful I
120:40
every time I go to the Lincoln monument
120:42
and read that I am moved to tears it is
120:45
insanely gorgeous prose as a writer you
120:47
must appreciate like economy of words
120:50
using the right words in the right place
120:53
and having the the right impact and you
120:56
know my friend Ari he has a piece of
120:59
paper that he has glued to the top of
121:01
his laptop from Hemingway to quotes as
121:03
the first draft of everything is shit
121:06
it’s true and there’s something about
121:09
someone nailing writing someone just
121:13
writing something that you go god damn
121:15
you just fucking nail that yeah yeah
121:18
there you have to mean the trick is
121:20
always even though it’s false you have
121:24
to you have to hold in your heart the
121:26
conviction that there is a way
121:28
to say this perfectly and beautifully
121:30
yeah right
121:32
you you so even when you’re in draft one
121:35
or two or five and it’s not there yet
121:37
you have to believe it’s possible and
121:39
the minute you lose that belief that
121:41
it’s possible it’s over when you when
121:43
you write do you write on paper first
121:46
and then start typing like how do you
121:48
how do you type oh and then print it out
121:52
because there’s there’s certain things
121:54
structural things you can only see I
121:56
think when it’s on the page and you’ve
121:59
kind of put all the pages in front
122:00
printed out though you don’t write
122:02
longhand at all dude I’ll print it out
122:03
and then we’ll I would know then it will
122:05
annotate that draft with a pen mmm so I
122:09
will do longhand absolutely there’s a
122:11
there there’s a I I’m very I think that
122:15
our thinking is actually quite sensitive
122:16
to the the mode that we’re using yes so
122:21
you think differently when you’re typing
122:22
on a keyboard than when you have a pen
122:23
in your hand and I think it’s neither
122:25
not one is better than the other they’re
122:26
both good they’re just different and yes
122:28
makes sense to use both yeah I agree
122:31
it’s particularly for me my notes before
122:36
I go onstage
122:36
I always write out longhand I mean right
122:39
out I write my comedy though all my
122:43
thoughts essays I write them all out on
122:44
a keyboard
122:45
I’d write typing and then when I’m about
122:48
to go onstage like the hour or so before
122:50
a show I’ll write out index cards and
122:53
sometimes I’ll write out entire pits if
122:55
it’s a bit I’m working on and it’s kind
122:56
of new I will write it all out and it
122:58
helps tremendously with my memory yeah
123:01
but something about writing things out
123:04
but writing to me on paper is so slow
123:09
it’s so slow for me to actually write
123:12
the words for me to get the thoughts out
123:13
I want to get the thoughts out with the
123:15
keyboard because I can just type I can
123:16
do it quickly I can get it done what I
123:19
don’t do what a lot of people do do is
123:21
voice to text I don’t do that never done
123:25
that no no but we I have a question that
123:27
occur to me when you saying you were
123:29
talking about that schedule that you’re
123:30
on that you do us every two years so are
123:34
you starting when you when you have to
123:36
sit down and write new material
123:37
are you starting cold or do you have you
123:41
in the previous year were you kind of
123:42
building up little bits and pieces that
123:44
you’re now putting together yeah I
123:45
always have little stuff that I lay
123:47
aside like I have I have pages and pages
123:52
of shit that never went anywhere and so
123:54
I’ll go back over that and go man this
123:56
maybe doesn’t take that out there and
123:58
then I’ll introduce all so usually
124:01
there’s a window of time like say if I’m
124:04
I film it in July it might not air until
124:08
are into October rather so in that
124:11
window I have those four months to try
124:14
to create material so what I’ll be able
124:17
to do in that window say I have a bit
124:19
that I know works because it’s something
124:21
special I’ll do that bit because the
124:23
people haven’t seen it yet and then
124:24
after that bit
124:26
I will sandwich in and some new stuff
124:29
and I’ll try to make that new stuff come
124:31
alive and then I’ll add a bit after that
124:34
that I know is good then I’ll sandwich
124:35
in some new soap you can make like a
124:36
like a club sandwich of shitty jokes
124:40
it’s sandwiched in between like legit
124:43
bits and then one of them will catch
124:45
fire
124:45
no Mike all right this one’s alive now
124:47
good and you go back
124:48
can you see a trajectory in your comedy
124:51
like when you go back and look at
124:53
something you wish you were a joke that
124:55
you may have done I don’t know eight
124:57
years ago do you how do you react to it
125:00
does it I don’t work I don’t but if I
125:02
did I probably somewhat I would I would
125:04
definitely see flaws oh my god that’s
125:07
too wordy or that’s that’s clunky or
125:10
that’s fit for store I don’t like how I
125:12
acted that out or I don’t like maybe
125:14
that wasn’t done yet you know there’s a
125:16
there’s a cooking period and everybody
125:19
has a different take on it and I’ve been
125:20
my friend Anthony Jeselnik has a three
125:23
year cycle and he might be right he he
125:26
takes the first year he just does clubs
125:28
in LA and develops material the second
125:30
year he goes on the road and he goes to
125:33
comedy clubs in the row the third year
125:34
he takes that to theaters and then he’s
125:37
ready to film at the end of the third
125:39
year yeah and you know his last special
125:41
was excellent but he’s just a very good
125:43
comic very good writer but his process
125:46
might be right there’s some guys that
125:48
were doing it on a one year cycle they
125:50
were doing a new special every year and
125:52
I don’t think that’s right
125:54
that’s gotta be yeah it’s too hard it’s
125:56
not just too hard the material suffers
125:59
its half-cooked a lot of is gooey on the
126:02
inside it’s just not ready yeah it’s not
126:04
done to me some of the bits are really
126:06
good then some of the bits aren’t and
126:07
you have to fill the whole hour and the
126:09
problem is also when you’re doing a
126:11
special every year you have your own
126:13
audience so those people love you so
126:15
they’re laughing at stuff that’s not
126:17
even that good like you have to you have
126:20
to be doing that in front of a bunch of
126:21
people that didn’t expect to see you
126:22
yeah yeah yeah that’s that’s hard to do
126:26
so a lot a lot of weird tricks you could
126:29
play on yourself as a comic you know you
126:32
could think you’re better than you are
126:33
or that the bits are better than they
126:34
are or that you you don’t have to worry
126:36
about things anymore you don’t have to
126:37
grind you don’t have to throw yourself
126:39
into the gladiator pit that is the
126:41
Comedy Store on a Tuesday night but you
126:43
do you do there’s no other way if you
126:46
want to be top notch you have to do the
126:48
things that top-notch people do there’s
126:50
a sinister mean there’s no there’s no
126:53
books written on this
126:54
there’s no University course but all the
126:58
best people will tell you there’s a
126:59
process this is the process yeah it’s
127:02
one of the weird art forms and that no
127:04
one teaches it there’s literally anybody
127:07
who does teach it is terrible there’s no
127:09
one who can it is I’ve never seen like a
127:11
we’re a real world-class headliner sells
127:14
out theaters who teaches a course on
127:16
comedy never seen it mm-hmm
127:18
you know and I couldn’t teach you how to
127:20
do it anyway because your way of doing
127:23
it would be very different than Jamie’s
127:24
way of doing it which be very different
127:25
than Steven Wright which is very
127:27
different than Sam Kinison it’s like
127:28
everybody’s got their own weird little
127:30
thing that makes them funny it’s a
127:32
matter of what is you the process mmm
127:35
how do you how do you get it out who is
127:37
your candidate for I always love in any
127:40
particular field
127:41
there’s the insiders choice and then
127:44
there’s the popular choice like the most
127:46
hilarious one is if you ask an architect
127:48
who their favorite architect is 99 times
127:51
out of a hundred you will never have
127:53
heard of that are it’s always some
127:54
obscure German guy from like hmm the 30
127:57
you know or it’s some like you know
127:59
experimental Dutch guy who did he’s done
128:01
one building and it’s like amazing if
128:03
you know it’s like some you did a church
128:05
outside of Antwerp and it was
128:07
why was that so who’s that who’s who’s
128:11
your insiders uh I would say the insider
128:14
a pick is Dave Attell because Dave
128:18
Attell is probably one of the greatest
128:20
comics of all time and doesn’t get
128:22
enough love because he has no social
128:25
media presence he wears the same hat and
128:29
the same shirt and the same jacket in
128:30
the same pants every day he does no
128:32
thought whatsoever about his look all he
128:36
does is just write new and better jokes
128:38
constantly he’s one of the most prolific
128:40
comics but he still he’ll still have a
128:43
hard time selling places out and it
128:44
doesn’t make any sense although lately
128:47
he and Jeff Ross have done this thing
128:50
called bumping mics where they go on
128:51
stage and they they sort of work
128:53
together and they talk shit and like
128:55
Jeff will say something funny and then
128:57
Dave will say something funny and Dave
128:58
will do his bits and Jeff will make fun
129:00
of them and they’ll go it’s really
129:01
entertaining and they do a series of
129:02
shows doing that and that has elevated
129:04
his profile and that I’m very very thing
129:06
how long was he serve in the wilderness
129:08
he’s been out there forever he’s that
129:10
was show on Comedy Central way back in
129:12
the day called who was a hominid act yet
129:16
insomnia thank you yeah and it was like
129:17
he would go out after shows and they
129:20
would you know go do weird things in
129:23
these towns and he would get blackout
129:25
drunk and he was an alcoholic at the
129:26
time and he was getting hammered drunk
129:28
and then he quit he got sober and rare
129:32
in comedy that someone gets sober and
129:35
becomes much better but that’s what
129:37
happened with Dave he’s a much better
129:38
comic now than even was then I would so
129:41
and what’s your when you see someone
129:44
like that perform and you’re you know
129:47
someone who’s extraordinary talented and
129:50
good
129:50
what is your emotional reaction to it do
129:52
you run home and re-examine all the
129:55
stuff you’re doing I mean what’s it was
129:56
certainly inspiring
129:57
yeah when someone’s really good I always
129:59
want to write that that is the feeling I
130:01
always a Cocker go to work work but also
130:04
I’ve cherished and held on to like a
130:07
like a sacred ember that I’m trying to
130:09
keep keep alive my fan oh my my my my
130:14
love of being a fan of stand-up comedy
130:17
like I like watching it I’m a fan I love
130:20
it
130:21
I like going to see it like to this day
130:23
mmm like I’m working with my friend Joey
130:25
Diaz tonight who I think is the funniest
130:26
guy alive I’m happy I’m gonna go see
130:30
comedy I’m gonna see him like that
130:32
I’d still like watching I still enjoy it
130:35
I didn’t for a while in the early days
130:37
it was too I was too ambitious and I was
130:42
judging myself versus them and if
130:44
someone had a really great joke I wish I
130:46
thought of it instead of enjoying it
130:48
I’ll go God why didn’t I think of that
130:49
and that’s a it’s poison and then I
130:52
realized luckily well I got very lucky
130:55
that I figured this out early on like
130:57
you know couple two or three years and I
130:59
was like I used to love comedy like why
131:01
am I not loving comedy because I’m doing
131:03
calm that’s the dumbest fucking thing in
131:05
the world the reason why I got into
131:06
stand-up comedy was because I loved
131:08
watching it now all of a sudden I don’t
131:10
like it because I’m jealous or you know
131:13
I or it makes me compare myself to them
131:16
and I don’t like the feeling or it makes
131:18
me you know what is that that’s so dumb
131:20
and then I realized it thankfully and I
131:23
had a shift and I caught myself yeah and
131:26
I have managed to cherish and and
131:30
nurture that being a fan that feeling of
131:34
being an actual fan the enjoyment of
131:36
stand-up comedy I nature that so that
131:38
that to me is critical so when a guy
131:40
like David tells on stage I can enjoy it
131:43
I enjoy it I just can I can sit there
131:46
like an audience member and just laugh
131:48
but are you and there’s question is when
131:51
you sit in an audience of cefotetan
131:55
you’re sticking out with watching Dave
131:57
Attell okay are you experiencing him
131:59
differently than the audience is because
132:00
you were professional like him I’m sure
132:03
someone but I try to shut down the
132:05
analysis part of my brain as much as
132:07
possible I try to shut down like why did
132:10
he run it like that why doesn’t he do it
132:11
this way I try to just be a fan I try to
132:13
just watch mm-hmm you know but I’m sure
132:16
I know some things are coming or I know
132:19
the way I would do it or I know Dave
132:22
very well so I know how he would do it
132:24
I’m sure there’s some sort of a
132:26
difference between but that’s like the
132:29
same as immediate musician right if
132:30
you’re a musician if you’re a guitarist
132:32
and you’re watching an amazing guitarist
132:33
even though they’re really
132:35
you probably mmm okay I see what he’s
132:36
doing he’s doing this thing like you
132:38
understand technically I can’t turn I
132:40
was my worry as I get older is that
132:43
increasingly my reactions are simply
132:45
versions of I would have done it that’s
132:48
not how I would have done it right right
132:50
as opposed to
132:51
so if sake punk comes to me for advice
132:54
my first did I think about oh that’s
132:56
here’s the advice I’d like to give on
132:58
this piece of writing my first someone
133:00
actually was talking a friend of mine
133:01
yesterday brought to me an essay she’s
133:04
working on credibly interesting essay
133:08
about the role of women in cinema
133:11
and I give out so we’re walking around
133:13
and I’m telling her my response to it
133:16
and after I give it that my first
133:19
thought was wait did I just say if I was
133:23
doing it I was I would have done it this
133:26
way in other words did I you know did I
133:27
just simply impose my own standards and
133:31
preferences on her which is not advice
133:33
that’s actually the that’s the worst
133:35
thing what you have to do is inhabit her
133:37
mind and fix it according to her own
133:40
intentions and yes I’ll and I my I’m
133:44
constantly paranoid about the notion
133:46
that I am NOT being truly empathetic at
133:49
the moment of giving advice
133:51
I’m just projecting my own and I think
133:55
that’s that’s something that happens
133:56
when you get so when you become so sure
133:59
of your own methods and professional
134:04
personality then you know that’s the
134:06
kind of I wouldn’t have done that when I
134:08
was 25 because I didn’t know what it
134:10
meant to be to write a Malcolm Gladwell
134:13
thing Brian’s just kind of reacting as a
134:15
human being but now I kind of have this
134:17
thing burned into my skull yeah you have
134:19
a method I have a method I mean I try to
134:22
mix it up but it probably still override
134:24
and everybody’s method is dead
134:25
particular with writing right
134:26
everybody’s method it’s very different
134:28
yeah everybody’s voice is very different
134:31
there’s some key things with comedy one
134:34
of them is as I said before the economy
134:36
of words it’s very important in comedy
134:38
if you see the punchline coming too far
134:41
out it loses impact with the more words
134:43
you use but if you can get the punchline
134:45
to the people before they see the
134:47
punchline coming in as a gigantic
134:48
packed that’s what my friend Joey Diaz
134:51
does better than anybody
134:52
mm-hmm he he does he does it better than
134:54
anybody he sneaks things in on you yeah
134:57
yeah this from my sphere along his very
135:00
lines I’ve often thought this was the
135:01
one of the greatest jokes I’d like to
135:04
see you probably know this joke
135:05
a lot in terms of economy this is the
135:09
most economical great joke I’ve ever
135:10
heard my life and it’s from oh my god
135:13
his name this is appalling I forgotten
135:15
his name but I know I was Dillard Park
135:22
he was he was in a Lake Bell movie Lake
135:27
Bell yeah he’s an incredibly he had his
135:30
own show on it’ll come to me the joke
135:34
was you know those signs in bathrooms in
135:38
restaurants you know all staff should
135:42
wash their hands after using the
135:44
bathroom right
135:45
especially Earl it’s two words that
135:53
transform is a tricky to race no no it’s
135:57
especially Earl especially so it’s like
135:59
I cannot go into about them anymore
136:01
without thinking of that joke it’s so
136:03
fantastic it’s like you know you did
136:07
like it takes this you know I don’t need
136:09
to explain the joke too it’s just a mate
136:11
two words have created this lasting
136:15
image of Earl its averted the whole
136:19
bathroom thing it’s it’s I can’t go to
136:21
the bathroom in your head it’s burned
136:23
into my head oh is it Jamie its I cannot
136:26
believe that’s so humiliating I can’t
136:29
remember his name it was in New York
136:31
kind of indie comic okay but I just like
136:35
that bro girl I know but we’re getting
136:38
close even close
136:39
you know it’ll come to me but he um but
136:42
that’s like I’m sure I am amazed by the
136:44
two words part mm-hmm like it’s just
136:48
that you can do it with two words just
136:49
strikes me is the same reason why I’m
136:50
obsessed I’ve always had an incredible
136:53
love of television commercials for silly
136:57
yes because the good ones the idea that
137:00
you can he
137:02
Munich ate something emotionally
137:04
powerful or funny or meaningful in 30
137:07
seconds is so badass like 30 seconds is
137:12
nothing right and there are people whose
137:15
job it is to communicate and some of the
137:17
like not the run-of-the-mill like 80% of
137:20
them are relatively straightforward you
137:21
know but there are there’s a handful
137:25
that are just magnificent
137:27
there was one uh I mean there’s a
137:30
million examples of great ones but there
137:31
was one really beautiful one which was a
137:35
Heineken ad oh god no I’ve forgotten
137:37
again the song they used we’re a bunch
137:41
of kids jump in the back of a cab and
137:44
they start singing a bell dev DeVoe song
137:47
and the cab driver they’re all young
137:52
cool hipsters and they’re all crammed in
137:54
the back and they’re all like a little
137:55
bit tipsy and the cab drivers it’s like
137:57
crusty old school guy and it comes to
137:59
the chorus and he chimes in and it’s
138:04
just this moment it’s 30 seconds and
138:06
it’s fantastic cuz you don’t you’re not
138:08
expecting that you’re thinking right you
138:10
see that crusty old it’s like a Boston
138:11
cab driver right like some grizzled
138:13
Irish guy who’s like 70 years old and
138:15
this week you think oh you must hate
138:18
these kids because they’re young and
138:19
beautiful and they’re tipsy that’s a
138:21
Friday night and he’s driving a cab and
138:22
then the song comes on the radio and
138:24
they all start singing along and they’re
138:27
kind of drunken way and then he just
138:29
joins in and is right this right thing
138:31
with it it’s fantastic and it’s 30
138:33
seconds like somebody a really great and
138:36
funny like they remember the Wendy’s
138:38
lady where’s the beef oh yeah you’ll
138:41
never forget that one 3 words where is
138:43
the beef and an image old lady screaming
138:45
opening up a cheeseburger looking for
138:47
the beef yeah yes I mean how could you
138:50
not how could you not take off your hat
138:52
the person who came up with that yeah
138:54
right if I gave you if you’re if you’re
138:57
set with 30 seconds it’s all right yeah
139:01
really really all right right and you
139:03
have to make a point you’re trying to
139:05
sell something yeah
139:06
Jerry Seinfeld was going to open up an
139:10
advertising agency for a while he he had
139:14
thoughts about I know he had done a car
139:16
commercials and apparently he had
139:17
written some of the commercials and he
139:19
had decided that he was gonna write
139:20
commercials yeah he was gonna do that
139:22
I think he’s got so much Seinfeld money
139:25
he’s like fuck that why am i working
139:26
what am i doing
139:27
I’ve got a billion dollars in the bank I
139:29
just go buy a couple more Porsches I
139:31
mean his his he doesn’t just have a
139:33
billion dollars in the bank he’s more
139:34
coming in coming in yeah it’s like
139:36
coming yeah there’s no it’s like a yeah
139:38
and it just seems to agree – does he did
139:40
he get did this Larry David have the
139:42
same deal that he does I do not know
139:44
yeah I would love to know that I would
139:46
like to know that – I don’t think he
139:47
does
139:48
I know I would imagine he doesn’t but I
139:50
think he’s probably extremely wealthy
139:53
but he has in my opinion the most
139:55
underrated sitcom of all time and Curb
139:57
Your Enthusiasm there’s times that I’ve
139:59
watched that show where I’ve been
140:00
literally weeping laughing like holding
140:03
my side laughing yeah and it’s so odd
140:06
the way he does it you know do you know
140:08
how he writes things yeah they have like
140:10
a place where they like okay you’re
140:12
trying to sell me a toaster and Jamie’s
140:15
trying to stop me from buying that
140:17
toaster but you’re you’re mad at Jamie
140:20
and you’re trying to be persuasive at me
140:21
at the same time that’s how they write
140:24
so it’s they just do multiple takes with
140:27
really talented people and they find
140:29
magic yeah it’s correct meaning it’s
140:32
crazy how open-ended it I’ve talked to
140:34
different guys that have been on the
140:35
show yeah you know about how they do it
140:38
it’s it’s amazing yeah that you have to
140:40
love the amount of trust you have to
140:41
have in your fellow actors yes yeah but
140:45
it’s kind of that’s lovely yes
140:47
particularly contrasted with this
140:49
incredibly tightly controlled email
140:52
writing process right that’s in place in
140:54
so many of those shows yes yes yes but
140:56
it’s also why that show seems so organic
140:59
yeah you know I mean there’s talking
141:01
over it sounds real it’s like you know I
141:04
had trouble watching it because it was
141:06
too real to me I was just cringing with
141:09
all of the social awkwardness just
141:10
constructing one socially awkward
141:12
situation that’s right and I couldn’t
141:14
because I couldn’t distinguish it from
141:16
real life yes I just I just couldn’t
141:18
bury much it was about it did you ever
141:22
see the one where he has he’s over the
141:25
rapper’s house krazee-eyez-killa you see
141:27
the
141:28
and the rapper has Scarface played’ 24/7
141:31
I mean it’s Larry David with this rapper
141:34
it is fucking magic man it’s magic it’s
141:38
so good yeah oh he’s a legitimate genius
141:42
there’s no doubt about that and you know
141:45
he’s also like a real legit oddball like
141:48
he drives a Prius you know like he is
141:50
that schlubby guy is probably worth five
141:52
hundred million dollars or something
141:53
crazy but you know he’s that kind of
141:55
schlubby guy that’s the way he me that’s
141:58
who he is yeah those guys were in am i
142:01
right they were in New York like barely
142:03
scraping by forever yeah yeah well he
142:05
was a stand-up and he and Jerry knew
142:10
each other from back then and you know
142:12
he was a weird stand-up like it just was
142:14
an acquired taste it wasn’t it wasn’t
142:15
you know it wasn’t yeah burning down
142:18
comedy clubs who which comics are not to
142:21
your taste I’m not saying that you don’t
142:23
like I mean that are not to your taste
142:24
that is whose humor just doesn’t kind of
142:28
know you mean nothing I could think of
142:33
offhand I know I wouldn’t pay attention
142:35
one things I’ve gotten really good at as
142:37
I’ve gotten older is not paying any
142:39
attention to things I don’t like yeah
142:42
just just letting it just slide right
142:45
out of my brain and onto the floor I’m
142:46
not interested it’s just I I spent so
142:49
much time when I was younger and stupid
142:51
or worrying about things I don’t like
142:53
being upset if things I don’t like well
142:55
that sucks why do people like that what
142:57
the fuck’s wrong with them and then
142:59
realize like what a gigantic waste of
143:01
resources that is just a huge waste of
143:05
energy yeah that uh I don’t care anymore
143:08
you know as long as they’re not stealing
143:09
material as long as they’re not you know
143:12
doing something terrible to other comics
143:15
victimizing as long as they’re not doing
143:17
that I really don’t care it’s like
143:18
they’re doing well good luck is in yeah
143:21
I tried you mean it’s not I’m just not I
143:24
mean it’s not a hundred percent it’s uh
143:26
it’s constantly a work of process but my
143:30
philosophy is rooted in some sort of a
143:33
pragmatic understanding of how my own
143:35
brain works yeah like you don’t you only
143:37
have so much time and you only have so
143:38
much energy
143:39
if you’re wasting your time on things
that you don’t like that have nothing to
do with you if people like something
like in that’s how I feel about music
and and movies and so many things
there’s so many things that I just don’t
like them at all
but some people do I mean you know some
people will that I think their music is
dogshit
but they’ll have full Staples Center if
people are rockin out I must be wrong
it’s not me it’s not them it’s just like
everyone’s different people have
different tastes
some people like really cheesy rom-coms
and they like it they really enjoy it
they seek comfort in this movie where
you know it’s gonna work out in the end
it’s going to it’s not like in the end
the fucking meteors gonna land on the
building and kill everybody and the the
screen is gonna splatter with blood
because the you know their bodies
explode you’re not gonna see that in
this movie in this movie everything’s
gonna work out great it’s this is like
by that I’ve that feeling about law and
order in fact what am i I have no idea
why any would ever watch that show and
one of my secret goals in life is at
some point I would like to be appointed
executive producer of law and order and
I want to do ones that completely
subvert yes so we get you through your
all everyone knows exactly how every one
of those shows is always gonna turn out
right and I want to get to minute 47 and
then just go on some savage you turn
that just appalls at outrageous
absolutely and then I’ll be done I’m
quitting and I’m walking back yeah fuck
and don’t tell anybody that Malcolm
Gladwell’s taken over no yeah it’d be
totally honest I would push just gently
push Dick Wolf aside and say let me have
this one and we’re gonna like completely
and we’ll have it you know the the
villain that will actually be one of the
prosecutors that’s what we’ll do or
something along those lines in every
episode ends like No Country for Old Men
style where the shit’s over you like
what the fuck but there’s something
there’s a drug in those where they’re
comforting and that people know that the
bad guys gonna get caught and the good
guy I don’t know this is a random
thought but I don’t know any men who
watch them and I’ve come to the belief
that they are there’s something there
actually for women and
a very comforting kind of reassuring
fantasy about how the world works that
that you know there the system is so I
had cutting a mite this is an incredibly
complicated theory that I developed once
about these kinds of things
oh so there’s we all know what a Western
is yes a Western is where is
conceptually a world in which there is
no law and order and a man shows up and
imposes personally law and order on the
territory the community right so there
is also a eastern what does an Eastern
an Eastern is a place where by contrast
is a story where they’re like I got this
straight it was four types the Eastern
is where there is law and order there’s
so there are institutions of Justice but
they are have been subverted by people
from within so a nice tune would be the
Serpico is an Eastern it’s a crooked cop
who is it’s the bad apple who has you
know screwed up that there are lots of
tons and tons of of Hollywood movies are
Easterns the northern is the case where
law and order exists and law notre is
morally righteous system works
Lana that show Law & Order is a northern
it’s a functioning apparatus of Justice
which reliably and accurately produces
the right the correct result in
confronting criminality every single day
when it’s on TV the southern is where
the the entirely the southern is all
John Grisham novels or Southern’s they
are where the entire apparatus is
corrupt and where the reformer is not an
insider but an outsider so in in every
John Grisham novel the same they all
precede I love John Grisham must be
clear but they all perceived from the
same premise which is the system is
rotten to the core
and only this white knight who comes in
from the outside can save us so in the
Western there is no system in the
northern there’s a system
fantastic in in the Eastern the system
is reformed from within but in the
southern the system has to be reformed
from without huh that’s my complicated
so I feel like anything you can place
all art about law and order about the
criminal world criminal justice into one
of these four categories and the so the
Brits love the northern so what is you
know all of the the famous British
detective stories are always drama comes
Sherlock Holmes yeah is it northern it’s
like the system is like and the you know
that there’s no corruption on the police
department they may be bumbling and
Charles gotta help them out but no one’s
you know off on some there’s no there’s
never a case where there’s a rotten cop
who’s selling out every is there a
modern version of the Western because
westerns all seem to take place between
the time of like fifteen sixteen hundred
and eighteen eighty there is so leach I
do you read the Jack Reacher novels my
Lou child no but I watched one of the
movies that those are weathers those are
westerns there’s you’ll never the whole
thing about a West’s can you find the
police can you find the police officer
you know I you to find a police officer
in a leach odd novel they’re not nowhere
to be found
Reacher is a retired the hero is a
retired army investigator he’s not even
in the army anymore and he’s just
roaming around the country solving
crimes on his own and he’ll confront
some massive criminal conspiracy and he
never calls the cops right that’s the
whole premise that’s so Western you
can’t call the cops in the classic
Western because there’s no cost as we
found right you’re in Montana on the
border but reach her it’s a it’s a 21st
century Western so he doesn’t call the
cops cuz he doesn’t feel like it it’s
just like they never up here like and he
just murders everyone on his own and
then he gets on the train and goes to
the next place
they’re amazing I loved them so much do
you write fiction no never I mean I I
read so many thrillers I read like I
mean I’m probably read how many do I
read here 50 60 70
really I read it you know when you go in
the airport that’s a lot into the Hudson
news and you see all those there’s a
whole like wall of those thrillers I
have read every single minute that means
you’re reading more than one a week yeah
easy yeah Wow and then I write on top of
that I read by serious stuff but I
devour people send me publishers send me
these things in the mail just because I
don’t have to buy them anyway I just sit
they know that I’m obsessed like Lee
childs although he didn’t with his most
recent Lee childs publisher for yours
you’d send me galleys I mean I didn’t
send you’re not recently happen
I think they’ve forgotten me it fucked
0:56
up what are you consuming all of it
151:01
reading or does it any of it book on
151:03
tape no I’m reading you know yeah I mean
151:05
I’m reading them in breakneck speed
151:09
and I’m but I do there’s a guy I’d love
151:12
I love one of my favorites is Steven
151:14
hunter who writes to you know they made
151:16
some movies of his stuff Bob Lee swagger
151:17
these sniper movies they’re
151:19
fantastically well written and those the
151:23
minute he comes out with a new one I I
151:26
read it the instant I mean I have to
151:27
it’s just like there’s just such
151:29
delights I’ve never heard oh he’s so
151:31
good really yeah so good mmm anything
151:34
with the word sniper in it is generally
151:35
one of his books oh and the shooter with
151:38
Mark Wahlberg was one yeah and see that
151:40
was a good but they’re the books are
151:42
fantastic
151:43
mmm I would recommend him wholeheartedly
151:44
um how do you have the time to read all
151:48
these books well that’s my job not
151:52
reading thrillers but but my job is
151:54
reading books literature yeah you know I
151:57
read very quickly I suppose but I I
152:00
don’t watch a lot of TV I just watched a
152:03
little bit of sports I don’t really
152:04
watch much so it’s not a lot competing
152:06
for my attention but um you know I know
152:09
the book that I will read tonight it
152:11
dinner so when you set out to write a
152:14
book do you have a premise stewing in
152:18
your head where it’s just like throbbing
152:20
where like that’s it that’s the one
152:22
or do you halfway in I’ll get it I’ll
152:24
start
152:25
oh so you start a book with a little
152:27
kernel there’ll be a story I’m
152:29
interested in I’ll write it up and then
152:31
I’ll see where can I go from there
152:34
hmm like they’ll be every one of my
152:36
books began as a very very simple one
152:39
chapter but I didn’t I didn’t know what
152:41
surrounded the chapter but there was
152:43
something in the book in talking to
152:47
strangers I got interested in these spy
152:49
stories he’s that story of Tel Aviv and
152:53
Montes the Cuban spy who rises to the
152:56
top of the American intelligence
152:57
establishment I began with that and I
152:58
went and talked to the guy who caught
153:01
her and he had such a fantastic
153:03
interview with him and that just got me
153:05
incredibly excited and that got me this
153:07
whole thing about here’s a woman spying
153:10
in plain sight for Castro at the top of
153:12
the American intelligence establishment
153:13
for ten years no one catches her even
153:19
though she’s not some master spy she has
153:21
the codes that she’s using in her purse
153:23
and the radio she’s using in a shoe box
153:26
in her closet like we’re not talking
153:28
about James Bond right and like she does
153:31
it and no one even comes close to her
153:32
they all like really really smart people
153:34
and that was such a fascinating notion
153:37
that even in the most sophisticated and
153:39
by definition paranoid agency in the
153:42
American government they’re spies that
153:44
get away with all the stuff like do you
153:46
think anybody ever gets away with it to
153:47
retirement and then there’s never
153:50
oh absolutely in fact really so I go and
153:53
I interview the guy who caught this
153:54
woman Anna Montez and I’m leaving to go
153:59
back to try back he’s in a small town in
154:01
Wisconsin and I you know as one does I
154:04
turned off my tape recorder and put it
154:05
in my bag and I’m walking back to my car
154:07
because I’ll walk you to your car it’s
154:09
like okay and we’re walking down the
154:11
street and he pians tell me another
154:13
story even better than the one I went
154:16
there to talk to him about which of
154:18
course my typical is no longer running
154:19
so don’t have the story anymore what the
154:21
fuck and the story was basically oh
154:23
there’s another bigger spy out there I
154:25
now know I now realize there is there’s
154:27
one out there right now well this was
154:29
three years ago there was one three
154:31
years ago that’s out there was actually
154:32
just retired at the implication was
154:34
they’re still there they’re bigger and I
154:36
really was one of those things where
154:38
when he put together all the pieces to
154:40
catch this one woman Anna Montez he
154:43
realized oh there’s someone else and
154:46
then he retired
154:47
whoa he’s like the implication was he
154:50
couldn’t get anyone else interested in
154:51
finding the other bigger one but he knew
154:53
there was someone out there they didn’t
154:55
know specifically who there were no he
154:57
knew there was someone I I forgot of
154:59
course because it was this tragic thing
155:00
where I tried out but you find him
155:02
yeah how didn’t you just hold on stop
155:05
stop stop let me put this back on do you
155:07
think he would have told you the story
155:07
if your tape recorder was running don’t
155:09
think so
155:10
oh fuck it’s kind of great it’s a great
155:14
he was incredibly that’s where Siri
155:16
comes in hey Siri record this yeah
155:19
that’s right
155:20
he was its crew but I think you know if
155:24
you’re in that world you just assume
155:25
yeah they all assume they’re spies like
155:28
we have them we have them in there
155:30
so it’s like they’re not as maybe
155:32
they’re not as worked up about it as we
155:33
are I don’t know yeah there’s there was
155:36
a story recently where Iran assassinated
155:40
some people that they suspected were CIA
155:43
spies and I always wondered like how
155:46
many people are spies and like you know
155:50
homeland style living in some other
155:53
country assimilating into their culture
155:55
getting jobs and organizations him even
155:58
in terrorist groups yeah infiltrating
156:00
what a crazy way to live your life well
156:04
there was a story I told him one of my
156:05
podcast episodes business history season
156:08
two I think that I ran across I loved
156:11
reading these memoirs of like mid-level
156:14
retired intelligence officers and
156:15
there’s tons of them and people don’t
156:17
really read them and I loved their just
156:19
because invariably like in the middle of
156:21
the book they’ll tell you some they’ll
156:23
just drop some crazy story and this guy
156:27
it was the former general counsel the
156:32
CIA wrote his memoirs really interesting
156:35
memoirs and the middlee tells a story
156:36
about how the CIA CIA a guy who was a
156:40
really big deal terrorists in the 70s
156:42
and 80s really big deal um has a change
156:46
of heart and comes to the CIA and says I
156:50
no longer believe in what I’m doing I’d
156:52
like to work for you and proceeds to
156:55
work for the CIA for some period of time
156:58
unknown period of time and he’s the he’s
157:00
way up high in Middle Eastern terrorist
157:02
organization and that fact leaks to the
157:07
New York Times and a reporter for The
157:09
New York Times basically writes a story
157:12
outing him and the CIA frantically tries
157:15
to get in touch with him to warn him and
157:18
he vanishes they think he was killed
157:22
fuck that reporter because there he was
157:25
a barely interesting you if you’re a
157:26
reporter and you have something like
157:27
that though that’s what the episode is
157:29
all about okay because your whole job is
157:31
to release information your whole job is
157:35
to report on things so here you have
157:37
this bombshell of a story that’ll make
157:39
you look like a hero but it could get
157:40
someone killed
157:41
what do you do fuck what I didn’t
157:44
realize is that there’s a established
157:47
pattern of people at this intelligence
157:50
services and editors of newspapers talk
157:52
all the time yeah about things like this
157:54
it’s like so they have arrangements yeah
157:56
they ever put that in this case the
157:57
arrangement didn’t work Malcolm you’re
158:01
awesome let’s wrap this up thank you
158:04
really appreciate I really appreciate
158:05
you work I’ve like I said have been a
158:07
gigantic fan for a long time so this is
158:08
a real treat for me and would you do
158:11
this again I would be delighted to thank
158:12
you thank you very much
158:13
appreciate it bye everybody
158:18
fuck
158:26
[Music]