Tyler Cowen: On Being Conversation Partner that Draws out the Best

76:48
oh just interesting first of all how do
you manage to to have discussions with
both jordan peterson and at the same
time people like automated which are
totally of the different size of the map
and still be a look of the interview or
a discussion that partner by both sides
of the equation with some alienating one
of the sites you know a lot of people in
your position just like enough being
either clone of the right totally
election they can’t have discussions
that’s a very good question I’m not sure
I know the answer I mean my audience
probably has a better sense of that than
I do but you know I’ve had like
published dialogues with Paul Krugman
Jeffrey Sachs Dani Rodrik Larry Summers
there is basically all like the leading
left-leaning
economists and I just asked them like
would you do it and they all said yes
and none of them have been paid yet
either it’s not like oh we had to shell
out you know the box to get Paul Krugman
just asked him I guess I think he
thought he would get a fair treatment
and then when you do a bunch of these if
people feel the others have gotten a
fair treatment they’re willing to do it
too
but I’m genuinely mystified because you
know I never thought any of those people
would say yes so like through some way
in which I’m still miss perceiving the
world people
meet printed in the same newspaper as
some of the other people that you like I
think a lot of them see Jordan Pearson
is a really yeah you know I think I
approach those conversations trying to
learn from those people and not trying
to refute them so I try to refute myself
in a sense and that changes the demeanor
and the tone and I guess it’s working
for attracting the people like sometimes
readers will write to me and they’ll say
Oh Krugman said this Jeff Sachs said
that like how could you just let that
slide they want me to like fight combat
with them on every point but somehow
that’s not what I think it should be
like if their arguments have weaknesses
maybe those weaknesses will come out
more if I’m encouraging and drawing out
the argument rather than in just
refuting it and that’s been like part of
what my podcast series has been about
but again it’s still a mystery to me I
think sometimes just like if you do
things that other people think can’t be
done like they can be done so just do
them that’s a very naive answer but I
don’t think it’s totally off-base either
so we’re all like under investing in
just doing things because I didn’t
approach this with any kind of plan or
strategy whatsoever I just like asked
them and then did it and it’s gone
pretty well and it’s a very popular
podcast and it’s like famous writers
we’ve had in it like Margaret Atwood all
sorts of different people I didn’t think
would be possible Martina Navratilova
the tennis star Kareem abdul-jabbar the
basketball player sorry yeah so for them
it’s like a platform where they can
reach a quality audience so I’m like
giving them access to my audience they
value that and it’s kind of like a
challenge I sometimes say I approach the
podcast I try to make every person look
as smart as possible and
that’s actually a lot more intimidating
than when someone tries to make you look
as stupid as possible because you’re
used to that people trying to refute you
like you always have your comebacks but
80:54
the pressure on you and someone’s trying
80:55
to make you look really smart like
80:57
that’s a real challenge for people and I
81:00
think they somehow respect that or they
81:02
don’t get enough of it elsewhere and
81:04
they’re sort of keen to sign up and take
81:06
on the challenge like if I ask you the
81:08
hardest but sympathetic questions like
81:11
how well will you do and people like
81:13
that anyway I thank you all for coming
81:18
if you have been like any follow-up
81:19
questions ever you can just feel free to
81:21
email me my email is online and I’d like
81:24
to thank my hosts also for having me
81:27
here in Israel it’s been a great
81:28
privilege and I do hope to come back and
81:30
again thank you all for the evening
81:33
[Applause]

Russell Brand & Jordan Peterson – Kindness VS Power | Under The Skin #46

11:45
another way of thinking about it you
could identify with what you understand
that’s what ideologues do

you could
identify with you don’t with what you
don’t understand and that’s what sort of
seekers
after truth identify with or you
could identify with the process of
moving between those states you know
sometimes you know what you’re doing you
know where you are you you you’re you’re
in control and and and you can become
arrogant and identify with that and then
become too static about it right or you
can be in despair and everything is
chaotic and you can identify with that
in which case you’re not listing or you
can view yourself as the thing that
moves across the transformations and
that’s that’s the right way to to
conceptualize yourself is your the thing
that maintains constancy across
transformations one imagines that your
experience with the controversies around

..
18:19
ideologically you reject to these
taxonomy and you identify basically on
the base on the basis of research like
empiricism in a sense you can say like
you know I’m an open-minded tough person
this language is clinical psychology so
your faith is clinical psychology
average well we’ve done a fair bit of
research in my lab on yes the
temperamental predictors of political
predisposition and we can predict what
parties people are going to align
themselves with by studying their
personality so liberal types liberal
left types are high in a trait called
openness and open people you’re a very
open person and you can tell because you
think laterally you know you have an
idea and then it reminds you of a whole
bunch of other ideas and so you’ll move
laterally across ideas and a more
conservative person they’ll stay within
the category you know and so your
conversational style is is marked by by
divergences now that’s actually called
divergent thinking
it’s a hallmark of
three goodie
well it’s good if you want to be
creative
the problem with there’s
there’s a price for everything hey the
price for creativity is that it’s hard
to catalyze an identity because you’re
interested in everything that’s the
first thing and your interest will flip
from one thing to another so one of the
problems that creative people have while
they have to one is they have a hard
time establishing an identity and the
second is they have a hard time
monetizing their creativity it’s very
difficult to be a creative person and
make money
you can make money for other
people but usually you’re dead by them
so it’s not very helpful for you Jordan
both of those problems are as a result
of external structures the imposition of
external structures on the individual ie
make money
you know a problem of capitalism and you
know commerce more broadly and the other
one of identity similarly you know
something is is there a sort of a
peculiar contradiction in around
identity in that like it seems to be on
one level that you reject taxonomy so
you’re saying that these systems eg if
you say women are being paid less money
your argument would be we’ll hold on a
minute there are other factors other
than gender it here exact agree later
today argument it’s a funny thing
because the intersectional feminists
always always claim that you should take
other factors into account
right woman
man isn’t enough yeah black isn’t enough
well there’s a there’s a pay gap between
men and women but it’s not only to due
to gender stood all sorts of things and
you have to take them into account
so it’s really an intersectional
argument
no one’s grateful for it he’s
an intersectional argument so I like so
do you feel then cuz what I sense he’s
happening like trying to understand
where like our worldviews would align
and where potentially there would be
opposition between you and I well I’m
totally because it seems to in looking
at your work you say oh I don’t agree
with the way that this information is
being compiled I don’t agree with the
assumptions that you’re trying to saddle
that piece of data with it seems to me

26:50
didn’t understand that truth comes in
different forms depending on its
application
it’s a tricky thing

there’s the truths that apply when you’re
attempting to describe the
transformations of the material world

and there’s

the truths that apply when
you’re trying to determine how it is
that you should act
while you’re alive
and those obviously those have to come
into alignment but they’re not in
alignment right now and my sense and
this is a sense that’s being developed
at least in part from reading the great
psychoanalysts is that fictional
accounts metafictional accounts even
like biblical columns which are
mythological are stories about how it is
that people should act not stories about
what the material structure of the world

is like this is also where the
fundamentalists have it wrong as far as
I’m concerned because the
fundamentalists like to think that the
account in Genesis is a scientific
theory
it can be started up against
other scientific theory short they are
materializing the myth it yes that’s
right
she’s unhelpful well it’s not a help
well first of all it’s not doesn’t even
make any sense because the materialist
types in any real sense weren’t around
until about 500 years ago right this was
only set by light heart and Descartes
and and bacon and well Galileo was
another player but those were the two
the two major players established the
scientific method there weren’t
scientists before then I mean there were
very intelligent people who could
analyze the structure of the world
the
ancient Greeks were obviously very
rational and capable of philosophy but
there was no science until 500 years ago
and so obviously the people who wrote
Genesis weren’t scientists
because there
weren’t any scientists so whatever and I
also think that though the world they
described is much more it’s much better
considered the world of experience than
the world of material reality and well
look here’s an idea you can you can try
this one on
besides I’d be trying this on audiences
for quite a long time so modern people
say they think the world is made out of
things but if you watch them that’s not
how they act they act like the world is
made out of potential and so they’ll
even say things to each other like
you’re not living up to your potential

you might say well what is this
potential that you’re talking about you
can’t doesn’t have a color doesn’t have
a shape it doesn’t have a mass it
29:17
doesn’t have a size I think there’s
29:19
nothing about it that’s that has a
29:20
material a material element yet you
29:25
believe that you’re not living up to
29:27
your potential everyone feels guilty
29:28
about that if someone accuses you of
29:30
that you feel bad about it so then I
29:32
might say well you also live not as if
29:34
you confront the world of things but as
29:35
if you confront a world of possibility
29:37
and you hold each other accountable that
29:39
way because I could say well you’re not
29:41
making all the use of the possibility
29:44
that’s presented to you because you’re
29:45
not living problem you’re not living
29:46
honestly you’re not aiming high enough
29:49
you’re not making everything of that
29:50
potential that might be made so what’s
29:53
that potential well in religious stories
29:55
that potential and you see this in the
29:57
first story in Genesis is that potential
30:00
is what God creates order out of at the
30:02
beginning of time that’s the idea that’s
30:04
expressed in that book is that there’s a
30:06
potential whatever that is and that
30:09
something acts on it to bring it into
30:12
reality there’s a deeper idea in there
30:14
to which which is a profound idea which
30:16
is that the potential the actuality that
30:19
you bring out of potential with truth is
30:23
good and so there’s an ethical element
30:26
to the story as well and I actually
30:27
think that that’s that’s a great truth I
30:30
do believe that’s the case that the
30:31
reality you bring out of potential with
30:33
truth is good and I think that’s one of
30:36
the most that’s one of the most profound
30:38
discoveries of humanity the ability to
30:41
articulate that idea was articulated in
30:44
the first chapter in Genesis it’s a
30:45
brilliant idea that’s associated with
30:47
the idea that human beings are made in
30:50
the image of God because God is that
30:53
which calls reality into being out of
30:56
potential but each of us do that as well
30:58
in a small way from that seems to me to
31:00
just be true of course all things that
31:02
are in the
31:03
fest world will once unmanifest right
31:05
and many of the things that are
31:06
unmanifest now will become manifest and
31:08
we could choose that to some degree we
31:10
have agency well we seem to yeah we do
31:14
yeah well you know if I treat you like
31:16
you don’t have agency you don’t like it
31:18
it’s not the grounds for a for a
31:20
satisfactory long-term relationship
31:23
while we’re in the Old Testament I want
31:24
to ask you something custom in the book
31:25
of Job that seems right up your alley I
31:27
looked at this book I can’t remember who
31:28
wrote anymore you may even know aspects
31:30
oh you will it was a book of engravings
31:32
from the book of Job by the British
31:34
writer and poet William Blake Blake had
31:37
done this series of engravings based on
31:40
the trials and tests that job went
31:42
through in this in these series of
31:44
engravings Yahweh and Yahweh and Joe are
31:51
depicted as a sort of identical you know
31:53
they’re ones in a celestial realm ones
31:55
in the terrestrial realm at the
31:57
beginning of the image but job and his
31:59
family depicted in front of the tree of
32:02
life the instruments hang in the trees
32:03
the animals are sleeping by the end of
32:06
the image after these various trials you
32:08
know that after Joe has been tested this
32:10
and we will to assume I suppose that
32:12
there’s been this journey of self
32:13
catalyst realization we have through
32:16
these trials the the instruments are
32:18
being played the animals are awake you
32:21
know and there’s a sort of bright future
32:22
in this sense of astronomical stuff ie
32:24
the positioning of the Sun unknown is
32:26
somehow meant to be significant also and
32:27
the person that wrote this book is a
32:28
Jungian now the thing that struck me
32:30
deep deep deep and I’ve been struggling
32:32
with it ever since is there’s a moment
32:35
where Yahweh shows the behemoth and the
32:38
Leviathan to jove and he says these i
32:41
made as i made thee right and then in
32:44
this Jungian analysis of these
32:45
engravings the writer says that the that
32:49
God requires of us that we be good that
32:53
goodness itself may exist that there is
32:56
a something beyond buts comparable to
33:00
neutrality in God the Creator the idea
33:03
of God the Creator the image of the
33:05
behemoth and the Leviathan in these
33:07
engravings is terrifying
33:09
the animalism of the behemoth its
33:11
musculature its rawness the Leviathan
33:15
sneaky dark deep terrifying thing this
33:18
idea of agency and god this relationship
33:22
between the unmanifest and the manifest
33:24
as achieved through an individual’s
33:26
relationship with truth and expression
33:29
seemed to me that it was saying
33:31
something that was right on the
33:32
precipice of my ability to understand
33:35
and sounded to convey okay so the first
33:37
thing I would say is well one of the
33:40
indications that you’re open is the way
33:42
that you phrased that question because
33:44
there’s like 30 things happening in that
33:45
question all at the same time one of the
33:47
things that creative people do is they
33:49
throw out like images because your your
33:52
your question was full of images there’s
33:54
you’re trying to map territory that you
33:56
don’t understand you say here’s an image
33:57
and here’s an image and here’s an image
33:59
and here’s an image and there’s
34:00
something uniting all of those but I
34:01
don’t know what it is it’s like an
34:03
artist’s do by the way and so that’s a
34:05
preliminary mapping of unexplored
34:07
territory and so we could take that
34:09
apart a little bit I mean one of the
34:10
things so job is objecting to his
34:13
treatment because of course god has a
34:15
bet with the devil basically that he can
34:17
take job down and make him curse fate he
34:19
basically bets the devil that he can
34:21
turn Jobe into Cain and God says no no
34:25
you God says no you the devil bets God
34:28
that he can turned Joel indicate by
34:30
tormenting us and God says nose jobs a
34:33
good man no matter what you do to him he
34:34
won’t lose faith in being that’s
34:36
essentially the back and you think well
34:38
that’s a hell of a thing for God to do
34:40
but then and Joe objects to go on to
34:42
some degree and so he’s got his reasons
34:44
man I mean because everything’s taken
34:46
away from him and God says I made these
34:49
things the Leviathan so that’s like the
34:51
terrible element of nature and I made
34:54
the Bayeux moth and maybe you could say
34:55
that’s the terrible element of society
34:57
it’s like how dare you question me and
34:59
that’s a perfectly reasonable objection
35:01
that’s like really you’re gonna doesn’t
35:03
matter what happens you’re gonna
35:04
question God really well so god objects
35:08
to that then and then you you you you
35:11
will although Joe Young believed that
35:13
Jonah actually had the moral upper hand
35:15
in that description because God behaved
35:17
rather reprehensibly and having a bet
35:18
with the devil I mean you wrote a book
35:20
called answer to job which is very much
35:22
worth reading it’s it’s quite a profound
35:24
piece of work but then you also woven
35:26
into the question this idea
35:28
the ethical requirement to be good yes
35:31
there’s something in that that’s
35:33
unutterably deep because this is this is
35:36
right at the limit of my ability to
35:37
understand things too so it’s
35:39
speculative beyond belief but it seems
35:41
to me that we are thrown challenges and
35:45
that there that and that in some sense
35:48
those are best construed as tests of our
35:50
ethical ability so what Jung thought his
35:53
idea was something like this that at the
35:56
beginning of time people were
35:57
unconscious and that consciousness
35:59
emerged with all of its catastrophes
36:01
consciousness of death for example and
36:04
one way out of the burden of
36:07
consciousness was to return to
36:08
unconsciousness you can do that with
36:10
alcohol you can do that by being
36:12
dependent you can do that by failing to
36:14
grow up you refuse the burden of
36:16
consciousness by becoming unconscious
36:18
again but there’s another way forward
36:20
which is to become even more conscious
36:22
so the idea would be a little bit of
36:25
consciousness is like an illness but if
36:27
you can expand that consciousness
36:29
upwards enough then it stops something
36:31
it starts to become something that it’s
36:33
all that is its own cure and that partly
36:36
what your goal is while you suffer
36:39
through life is to heighten your
36:40
consciousness to the point where
36:42
everything gets integrated enough so
36:44
that that’s proper medication for the
36:46
disease of self-consciousness and you
36:48
believe that that was really the that
36:51
was one of the ideas that ran through
36:53
the entire well the entire structure of
36:55
judeo-christianity although not it
36:57
wouldn’t be limited to
36:58
judeo-christianity so it’s it’s more
37:01
consciousness rather than less it’s more
37:03
attention and I I think I think there’s
37:06
something to that and some of that see
37:08
the other thing you see in psychotherapy
37:09
for example is that when you’re trying
37:12
to lead people forward out of the
37:14
darkness let’s say out of anxiety and
37:17
depression and despair and and
37:18
resentment and bitterness and anger and
37:20
all of those things
37:21
catastrophic interactions with their
37:24
family is that you get them to stop
37:27
avoiding confronting the terrible things
37:30
that are in front of them right so
37:32
basically what you do instead of saying
37:33
to them you know those terrible things
37:35
that are happening just ignore those and
37:37
and find some peace right get your mind
37:40
away from it that isn’t what you say
37:41
you say turn around and look at them
37:43
even more than you’ve been looking at
them there’s a very paradoxical advice
but of all the things that have been
proven to aid people’s recovery and
movement towards mental health that’s
like at the top of the list
voluntary confrontation with what you
are afraid of or or what you despise

even for that matter and so Jung had an
axiom that he derived from the alchemist
which was in sterk willingness infinite
or which meant roughly meant that which
you most need will be found where you
least want to look
which is well yeah
well that’s he that was also his
explanation for why people weren’t
enlightened because you think well the
California approached enlightenment to
speak you know kind of satirically is
follow your bliss
it’s like well that’s
easy if that was the case everyone would
be enlightened but the union approaches
no no you do what’s meaningful and pay
attention follow the truth and it will
take you to the worst place you can
imagine and then maybe there’s some
chance for enlightenment

Campbell somewhat revoked that I follow
your bliss mantra though I say wish he’d
said follow your blisters you know like
oh yeah the pain yeah all right yeah I
didn’t know you said cool isn’t it yeah
wicked put that on the scoreboard oh
that’s good well like a novel thing like
I’ve been thrown because you’ve said
that I could summon you didn’t know it’s
39:05
unraveled my entire volton chow and now
39:08
I’ve reached for a bit of German
39:09
language to pull my way back in oh yeah
39:11
her nan Millfield he’ll help me out like
39:13
so like I’m reading this Moby Dick it
39:15
smashed my head up you know like and
39:17
like um when he says in there’s a toward
39:21
the end of the book I have when he’s
39:23
hanging out with Pip and stuffies and
39:25
he’s really losing it now but maybe he’s
39:27
finding it – there’s a bit where he
39:29
talked about will who is it that moves
39:32
this arm he says who is it that think
39:34
these thoughts if the mighty son has no
39:36
control over its movements what control
39:39
as Ahab over his thoughts you know he’s
39:41
talking about fate and destiny and these
39:43
ideas again seem to me very potent
39:46
powerful themes my vision he struggles
39:50
with a great whale right
39:52
yeah it’s the dragon of the abyss that’s
39:54
that’s moby-dick because it’s it’s the
39:56
hero against the dragon of the abyss
39:57
he’s obsessed with it right why should
40:00
be obsessed with it it’s what to be
40:02
obsessed with is the dragon of the abyss
40:04
that’s the oldest story of mankind is
40:06
that your proper obsession is the dragon
40:09
of the abyss that’s where the gold is
40:10
yes that’s where the gold is even though
40:13
that’s worth as our most terrifying also
40:15
a bloody tragic ending except that as
40:16
you take Ishmael as the protagonist in
40:18
which case Ishmael survives and I have
40:20
you know everyone died so I am but like
40:23
I so it’s a tragedy it’s a tragic
40:26
encounter with the dragon of chaos he’s
40:27
a failed hero figure outcomes he’s about
40:30
and these gates lost that limb and stuff
40:32
and I’m sure yes or symboi just like
40:34
Captain Hook and the crocodile here they
40:36
have to have you know I love it for me
40:38
it’s very exciting when I see these
40:39
patterns of perennialism and for me it
40:41
is exciting because this tree is
40:43
simplicity implicit in it is true for
40:46
now that thing we were talking about a
40:47
minute ago where we where I go excited
40:48
because to follow your blisters the feel
40:50
is going to say is like this says
40:51
there’s some sort of maxim I understand
40:53
in Buddhism is like let it burn let it
40:55
burn burn like tape away from me every
40:57
right and there’s the idea is also there
41:00
in Christianity so there’s an occult
41:02
interpretation there’s letters on
41:04
Christ’s cross INRI Jesus please that it
41:07
means Jesus Christ King of the Jews and
41:09
it was put there by the Romans but
41:10
there’s no cult interpretation in Latin
41:12
which I can’t reproduce but it means
41:15
through fire all things are renewed and
41:17
one of the one of the deepest ideas of
41:20
Christianity is that you should burn
41:22
everything off that’s part of you that
41:24
isn’t part of that thing that can die
41:26
and be reborn there’s all sorts of
41:28
baggage that you people say that there’s
41:29
baggage that you’re carrying everyone
41:31
knows that it’s dead wood it’s like that
41:32
has to burn off and that’s a lot of
41:34
touch way more of you than you think
41:36
who’s way more than you think whilst you
41:38
still haven’t said whoever not yet are
41:39
you believing God won’t keep gun
41:41
automatics I’m not one them type of
41:42
people yeah so that I’m like it seems to
41:48
me that you Revere truth and it seems to
41:52
me that you are interested in the truth
41:54
in Scripture and mythology then what
41:58
this leads me to is something we touched
42:00
upon briefly it’s about the role of
42:02
power and
42:04
the function of morality and ethics and
42:07
and and and green bead simpler ideas it
42:11
will terms if not ideas such as
42:12
compassion and goodness so when like you
42:16
know it’s interesting to me that you’ve
42:17
written sort of an access abort or
42:19
self-help type book that you know clean
42:20
your room stand up straight stick your
42:22
shoulders back stuff that you know like
42:23
I would not query the only thing that I
42:26
feel like I would like to ask you about
42:28
because my I don’t know if I even have a
42:30
constituency but the people I finally
42:32
you know I found myself talking a lot
42:33
Muslim people young women self harming
42:37
eating disorders these kind of you know
42:39
your clinical psychology so I mention
42:40
you have more access to that kind of
42:42
information and those kind of
42:43
experiences than I do I have this strong
42:46
feeling that I am supposed to make
42:48
myself available for the vulnerable for
42:51
the powerless and for the voiceless so
42:54
that’s a fine idea this is the one is
42:56
how do you do it
42:57
how do we do what to do a huge bloody
42:58
question sometimes they don’t want me
43:00
interfering in their lives is that
43:01
majority at the time right certainly is
43:04
that well there’s an there’s a maximum
43:06
that’s often applied by people who work
43:08
in old-age homes which is never do
43:10
anything for the residents that they can
43:12
do themselves I can’t steal their own
43:14
money and that’s the best sleeping buddy
43:25
so isn’t it so it’s hard like the thing
43:28
about the thing about compassion is it’s
43:30
not sufficient to produce solutions
43:32
compassion is an unbelievably useful
43:34
emotion if you’re dealing with six month
43:36
old infants what bow they’re always
43:38
right she’s there in our soul now but
43:40
like a it doesn’t work no but what about
43:46
I won’t want to say is like I know you
43:51
said all this thing about sort of good
43:52
that the one of the isn’t one of the
43:55
essential themes ideas about the Christ
43:58
myth being you know to burn away all
44:01
that cannot be reborn but bloody ill may
44:03
in the actual language all he bangs on
44:06
about is kindness kindness love love
44:08
kindness kindness love novel revelation
44:11
hmm not in revelation he’s a judge in
44:14
revelation what are you still you’re
44:15
still taking that is what’s the books
44:17
beyond the Gospels your students
44:18
as the word of Christ well I’m taking
44:21
them as part of the entire corpus of the
44:22
story I mean the reason that yon thought
44:24
revelation was appended to the Bible was
44:26
because the Christ in the Gospels was
44:28
aired Deus too much in a sense on the
44:31
side of mercy and not enough on the side
44:33
of judgment because here’s the
44:35
settlement is a technical there’s a
44:37
technical reason though it’s like
44:38
without one attachment oh Jesus well you
44:41
don’t have a choice
44:42
because if you have an ideal it’s a
44:44
judge like you have an ideal you and
44:46
there might be an ideal that you have of
44:48
you
44:48
it’s simultaneously your judge because
44:50
you fall short of it I understand this
44:53
cuz as funny enough I was talking to the
44:54
fellow that taught me meditation
44:56
yesterday Bob ruff so he’s a student of
44:58
the Maharishi you know that he said that
45:00
when my Rishi was asked what is the one
45:02
principle the one principle he didn’t
45:04
say kindness or compassion or anything
45:06
like that I said discernment right
45:08
discernment you know which part are we
45:10
gonna follow there is the tension going
45:11
yeah but judgment that’s why in
45:14
Revelation Christ divides the Damned
45:16
from the saved and most are damned its
45:19
discernment and and what that means in
45:21
some sense is that there’s a thousand
45:23
there’s a hundred thousand ways to do
45:24
things wrong and only one way to do them
45:26
right maybe the only five ways of doing
45:28
them right but you know that in your own
45:30
life is that the there’s an infinite
45:33
number of snares that you can tangle
45:35
yourself up in and to find that pathway
45:38
where everything is balanced that’s very
45:39
that requires continual discernment and
45:41
attention and so you you can’t have an
45:43
ideal without it being a judge and you
45:46
can’t you can’t live properly without
45:48
discernment but that doesn’t mean
45:50
compassion and compassion isn’t relevant
45:52
it doesn’t mean that at all I’ve got a
45:54
skew something that sort of occurs to me
45:56
see like I like you I found myself in
45:59
different types of controversial
46:00
situations various conflicts and maybe
46:03
it much of the time is because Albert
46:05
Maysles said tyranny is the deliberate
46:08
removal of nuance I didn’t even say that
46:11
that’s not a good phrase good share
46:13
isn’t it yeah that’s right but like the
46:15
thing right deliberate removal that’s
46:18
that’s what makes it different than
46:20
ignorance because ignorance there’s no
46:22
nuance in ignorance but it’s excusable
46:24
because you just don’t know anybody yeah
46:26
when it’s deliberate that’s a whole
46:27
different story I think very nice who
46:29
said that Alba Mays was filmmaker he
46:30
made like Grey Gardens he made that
46:32
ideas of documentary within very briefly
46:34
and he he made that Beatles movie when
46:37
the Beatles first came to the states he
46:38
made give me show us the Mazal maze was
46:40
probably like old guys now brilliant
46:41
documentarian approval he invented much
46:45
of the flying the wall verite style this
46:47
informed subsequent documentary
46:49
tyrannies the deliberate removal of
46:51
nuance are works of himself briefly
46:52
filming none other than President Donald
46:54
Trump before people but like one of the
46:56
things that I wanted to talk about was
46:59
um if I like this is a thing I don’t
47:02
like all of the I don’t like though I
47:04
agree and I feel I don’t know what you
47:06
feel that you know that one of the
47:08
neoliberalism abandoned its allegiance
47:11
to and left his politics has in a sense
47:13
abandoned the working class and I can
47:16
understand their rage and but the
47:19
feeling I personally have is when if I
47:22
sense that I’d said things and I’ve done
47:23
this so I know that I’ve offended women
47:26
which I you know when I was more when I
47:27
was a single person I was promiscuous
47:28
and I know that caused me conflagration
47:32
and conflict or when I’ve done things
47:34
like you know in a spirit a few mother
47:36
of had like a kickback
47:39
I’ve always felt bad if I feel like I’ve
47:42
offended people that I would I would
47:45
regard or sculture alia regarded as
47:47
vulnerable yeah so like around the like
47:50
I when we make the conversation about
47:53
the use of language tyranny and
47:55
oppression in free speech you know
47:56
obviously I agree with you but but I do
48:00
take from you know the gospel version of
48:03
Christ
48:04
the idea that kindness love we can’t you
48:09
know like we have to continue to find
48:11
resources for anger you know I won’t
48:13
we’ll continue to fail we must continue
48:14
to be loving so yeah what my question is
48:17
is if you you have found yourself in a
48:18
position where I kind of think some
48:20
people are using you to sort of say fuck
48:22
you women or fuck you transgender people
48:25
and for me I think I would want to go on
48:30
that’s not my bag like so well where do
48:33
you stand on that well I think I think
48:36
that first of all the most fundamental
48:39
part of the question which is this issue
48:41
about love and like one of the
48:46
things I’ve thought about a fair bit is
48:47
the meaning of the Sermon on the Mount
48:49
and as far as I can tell it’s it’s a
48:52
it’s basically a two part it’s two part
48:56
wisdom the first is that you should aim
48:59
at the highest good that you can imagine
49:00
and that would be a good that includes
49:03
everyone right so if I wanted what was
49:05
good for you say if I genuinely wanted
49:08
it I wanted in a way that was good for
49:10
you now I’m good in the long run and
49:12
good for you and your family in your
49:13
community and may be good for me too you
49:15
know we could conceive of that as the
49:17
desire and I think that’s a good
49:19
definition of love is that you actually
49:21
want the best you want the best possible
49:23
outcome and in the Gospels of course
49:25
that’s extended even to your enemies yes
49:27
right is that okay if we’re gonna have
49:29
things good let’s have it good enough
49:31
for even the people that set themselves
49:32
up against me because if the world was
49:34
running properly things would be good
49:36
for them too and that would be better
49:38
and it seems to me that that’s a very
49:40
good way of looking at things it’s a
49:41
difficult way of looking at things and
49:43
then the second part of the Sermon on
49:45
the Mount is something like having
49:48
established that as your aim which is no
49:50
easy thing by the way right because you
49:52
have to be pretty clear headed and
49:54
single-minded to actually want that to
49:56
be your aim then you can concentrate on
49:58
the day and you can try telling the
50:00
truth and you can alai so there’s truth
50:02
and love that are allied together truth
50:04
love and attention it’s something like
50:06
that that are all allied together with
50:09
regards to transgressing against the
50:11
vulnerable I don’t think that that is
50:14
what I’ve done I think that people have
50:16
claimed that but I don’t think there’s
50:17
any evidence for it I mean first of all
50:19
I know absolutely that I have brought
50:23
perhaps thousands of people maybe tens
50:27
of thousands of people but certainly
50:28
thousands of people away from
50:30
identification with the right because
50:32
they write me all the time and tell me
50:33
that I’ve received about 30,000 letters
50:36
specifically from people have been
50:38
watching my youtube videos since August
50:40
and 25,000 of them are so we’ve tried to
50:43
count are from people who said that they
50:45
were in very dark places and that their
50:47
lives are much better much oriented
50:50
towards truth and responsibility and
50:52
away from political ideology mostly on
50:55
the right right that they were attracted
50:56
on the right because I have more peace
50:58
like that right me then people who say
51:00
that I’ve say rescued them from the hell
51:02
holes of the radical left I think that’s
51:05
more of a historical accident some in
51:08
some in some why it’s than anything else
51:12
and but also with the transgender issue
51:14
more specifically I’ve received now at
51:16
least 40 letters from transgender people
51:19
and the only one of them was critical
51:21
and it wasn’t that critical the rest of
51:23
them all said we never signed up to be
51:26
poster boy of the year for the radical
51:28
left and it’s not-it’s been no picnic
51:31
believe me all that’s happened is that
51:33
our lives have become much more
51:34
difficult and I believe that and I don’t
51:37
see that I think one of the mistakes
51:38
that the radical left makes and this is
51:41
part and parcel of their flirtation with
51:43
identity politics is that they fall all
51:46
over themselves to believe that if a
51:48
person identifies as a minority then
51:51
they immediately have the right to speak
51:53
for all the people who are in that
51:54
minority and that’s a claim that I
51:56
reject completely I mean first of all
51:59
there is no transgender community it’s
52:01
not a community because the community is
52:03
constantly interacting and networking
52:05
and has a shared purpose and all that
52:07
transgender people are just as diverse
52:09
as any other people it’s like saying
52:11
well there’s there’s no real black
52:12
community there’s not homogeneous
52:14
political viewpoints across the black
52:16
population I said I agree to a point
52:19
that these taxonomy czar necessarily
52:21
externally imposed because how would
52:24
they be intrinsically experienced I
52:27
understand that but also it seems to me
52:30
that there is a thing called the
52:32
experience of being an african-american
52:34
and you can put into that high prison
52:37
populations for young males lack of
52:40
educational opportunity or work
52:42
opportunity that they has available for
52:45
that so while community may be an
52:49
incorrect term literally there is a
52:53
there was a strata that seemed to be
52:55
underserved and another concern I would
52:56
have about some of the war the
52:58
repurposing you know as far as far as we
53:01
know so far of much of your oratory and
53:05
online work seems to me that it supports
53:09
the powerful is a poor
53:11
hegemony I would I don’t agree that
53:13
things are as simple as white men are in
53:15
position pattern let you know though
53:16
that you know like but I’m only
53:18
interested in who is able to affect
53:20
change who is able to influence who can
53:23
you not attack in public what is
53:25
positive like who is being controlled
53:26
that’s what interests me so like in a
53:29
transnational corporations economic
53:31
elites you know less of an how are they
53:33
served by what I say or by what are you
53:36
say ok so yes inequality problem oh yes
53:43
you’re saying it’s natural which clearly
53:45
well it’s not you cannot lay it at the
53:47
feet of capitalism that’s absolutely
53:48
clear that and the fact that it’s now a
53:50
Yelp in those I what’s that capitalism
53:54
doesn’t help they sent me like you know
53:55
Marx’s critique well I understand better
53:57
it’ll irk is that capitalism is built on
53:59
limitless growth from finite from finite
54:02
resources and also Kapil ISM will always
54:05
always be redirected and criminally
54:08
misused and under this of the economics
54:10
of our time it’s up for me is
54:12
demonstrably I know so if there are
54:13
people say I know people are richer now
54:15
than ever
54:16
but like you know staying in LA for a
54:18
while and there’s ninety thousand
54:19
homeless people and the greater LA area
54:21
it seems like some sort of like the
54:23
apocalypse is creeping in people are
54:25
richer than they ever have been but the
54:27
extreme extremes of inequality or hi to
54:29
hmm and there’s some evidence that
54:31
there’s some evidence well here’s an
54:33
example of how these things might work
54:34
so imagine that people that people are
54:37
getting richer there’s absolutely no
54:38
doubt about that but here’s here like
54:40
we’ve got more stuff even though I’m
54:42
sure you’d agree there are V that’s
54:43
what’s diving that’s good obesity is a
54:45
bigger problem in the world now than
54:47
starvation right that’s a big deal
54:48
that’s a big plus but here in a way it
54:51
still implies that people are being
54:52
underserved by the seat by their
54:54
operating systems still inferred
54:58
inequality also oh yes well well first
55:01
of all there’s no doubt that any social
55:03
system has a tyrannical and arbitrary
55:06
aspect I mean that’s an archetypal
55:08
training right any of course even though
55:11
even well-functioning systems have a
55:12
tyrannical aspect Department not mostly
55:16
or at least merely what Native Americans
55:19
who you’re down with not Native America
55:22
native Canadians that the quak quak yeah
55:25
let them realize like how’s their social
55:28
system set up oh it’s a catastrophe
55:30
go on oh well I mean it’s a catastrophe
55:33
for all sorts of reasons I mean some of
55:35
it
55:35
yeah it is it is it’s the situation is
55:38
very catastrophic what he might be
55:39
because well the reserve system was set
55:41
up in Canada and it had a possibility of
55:43
working when there was a possibility
55:46
that small communities could work
55:47
economically but small communities don’t
55:50
work economically anymore like if you go
55:52
through Saskatchewan for example a
55:54
central province in Canada in the 1960s
55:57
there were thousands and thousands of
55:58
small towns mostly Caucasian that is
56:01
because if their dance capitalism no no
56:03
it’s not it’s it’s deeper than that it’s
56:05
the same prop well here’s it might be
56:07
deeper than it but in its current form
56:09
it is company because I would agree that
56:10
what is capitalism a manifestation of
56:12
greed it’s the same thing the same thing
56:17
has happened all over the world like
56:18
urbanization is taking place in a
56:20
tremendously rapid rate it doesn’t
56:22
matter what the culture is or the form
56:23
of government so you think that the
56:25
politics is happening at a lower level
56:27
the phenomenology that’s weathered is
56:30
where the significant is Hattie’s is a
56:32
bigger time and within it political
56:34
systems are slowing about but that
56:36
doesn’t mean that’s man all the ones we
56:37
have in search of fairer more just
56:40
better ones particularly if they are
56:42
empirically not working come up with a
56:43
way to reliably flatten inequality that
56:49
would be a good thing but the empirical
56:51
evidence suggests so there’s a bunch of
56:53
things it suggests first of all if you
56:55
look at at the attempts to alleviate
56:58
inequality over the last 200 years
57:02
whether there were left-wing governments
57:04
in power or right-wing governments and
57:06
now made absolutely no difference
57:07
whatsoever to the degree of inequality
57:09
the only things that have been reliably
57:12
demonstrated to flatten out inequality
57:14
are catastrophes wars revolutions
57:17
epidemics there’s one other war
57:20
revolution epidemics well it’s gonna be
57:23
some kind of postman yeah that’s right
57:25
it’s another Horseman I can’t remember
57:27
which it is but but at a price of the
57:29
price of radical redistribution seems to
57:33
say yeah
57:35
yeah there and no one has come up with
57:36
you think that’s because of health and
57:37
our functions because like you know in
57:40
an unequal system whilst there are many
57:43
people that are suffering there are some
57:44
people that are benefiting I’m in a tier
57:46
that benefit yes from the current
57:48
economic situation I Drive nice car you
57:51
have nice house I go where I want
57:53
well let’s look at that for a minute
57:54
like if you think about how that
57:56
happened in your life I bet I can tell
57:57
you how it happened go on well I mean
57:59
this isn’t a personal account but
58:01
Bennett Bay you had otherwise I’m not
58:03
interested it’s that’s in one dimension
58:05
right hi success but because you were
58:08
successful not to mention all sorts of
58:09
opportunities came your way like my
58:11
suspicions are that where you’re sitting
58:13
now you have more opportunities than you
58:15
can deal with mmm is that correct yeah
58:18
yeah opportunity right exactly well
58:20
there see this is part of what seems to
58:22
drive inequality is that as you get
58:25
successful the opportunities that come
58:28
your way start to multiply and they
58:29
don’t multiply linearly they multiply
58:31
exponentially and so when you start
58:33
moving up you start moving up faster and
58:35
faster and faster and faster and then
58:36
you’ll hit a point where you have so
58:38
many opportunities that you don’t even
58:39
know what to do with it and so it’s a
58:41
nonlinear improvement but the the
58:43
downside of that is and you might have
58:46
had periods in your life where that were
58:47
like this to where let’s say you start
58:50
to get depressed and then you start to
58:52
drink because you’re depressed and then
58:54
you start to isolate yourself because
58:55
you’re drinking and you’re depressed and
58:56
because you’re drunk and depressed and
58:58
your friends start to abandon you and
58:59
then you lose your job it’s like you’re
59:01
not going downhill in a straight line
59:03
you’re going downhill faster and faster
59:06
and faster till you fall off a cliff and
59:07
that seems to me how the world works is
59:09
like there’s a center point it’s
59:11
unstable things improve then they
59:13
improve exponentially and things fall
59:15
and then they fall off exponentially and
59:17
that seems to be what’s driving
59:18
inequality you start to succeed and the
59:21
probability that you’ll continue to
59:23
succeed starts to expand hmm and so and
59:25
we don’t know how to control that and
59:27
well here here’s some other examples of
59:29
it though because I said you couldn’t
59:30
lay it at the feet of capitalism the
59:32
same thing happens to cities a small
59:34
proportion of the cities get all the
59:35
people so some cities grow like mad and
59:38
others fail catastrophically like like
59:40
Detroit it it it applies to the mass of
59:43
stars so there’s a very few stars in the
59:46
in the Milky Way that have
59:48
most of the matter so it applies to the
59:51
height of trees in the in the jungle
59:52
right and you think if things are
59:54
applicable in cosmology and in biology
59:58
the way that they are their application
60:02
politically and sociologically becomes
60:04
less relevant because you see these
60:06
phenomena as being broader then media
60:09
don’t human interaction I know you think
60:11
it’s less relevant I just see I don’t
60:14
think the left wingers are pessimistic
60:18
enough about the problem
60:19
they say inequalities of problem it see
60:21
how you have equality as a problem like
60:23
it’s it’s a terrible problem but then
60:25
they say well it’s probably a function
60:27
of our political and economic systems
60:29
and we could fix those it’s like no it’s
60:31
not a function of our political and
60:32
economic systems or if it is it’s at
60:34
such a deep level that we don’t know
60:35
what drives it and we certainly don’t
60:37
know how to control it like so but does
60:39
that not mean Jordan that would you then
60:41
reject any attempt to alter systems in
60:43
favor of fairness because it seems to me
60:46
that the focus is on like and as it
60:48
would be for a clinical psychologist
60:49
individual change now part of my
60:51
personal experiences without individual
60:53
change social change is sort of
60:55
irrelevant and many great gurus would
60:58
say yes because because I am concerned
61:02
with inequalities and with social
61:04
instability and I thought about it for a
61:06
long time I knew that the left-wing
61:07
approaches tended to fail
61:09
catastrophically and the right wing of
61:11
course isn’t particularly concerned with
61:12
inequality so that’s the left wing fails
61:14
and the right wing don’t care yeah
61:16
that’s right we need today I don’t see
61:18
the danger sufficiently and the right
61:20
wing also tends to think that the spoils
61:23
go to who deserves them yeah that’s kind
61:26
of true but it’s not completely true so
61:29
that’s that’s part of that yeah because
61:30
we’re not all because of course and what
61:32
I like from a leftist perspective would
61:34
be that we’re not starting with from a
61:37
level playing field well in the system
61:39
isn’t perfect at selecting and this is
61:40
why I think a spiritual solution but as
61:43
something that is beneath or beyond
61:45
material is the only way that true
61:47
progress is likely to be achieved I was
61:49
thinking of this something that you said
61:50
before about when we were talking
61:52
briefly about kindness and compassion
61:54
and it occurs to me and this program
61:55
will show very simplistic but the
61:58
heroism itself by which I mean sacrifice
62:01
the willingness to sacrifice yourself
62:03
for a greater idea what excites me about
62:06
that idea and I believe why the
62:07
phenomena is so loaded is if someone is
62:09
willing to die for something it’s that
62:11
they believe it’s bigger than them in
62:13
fact that themself their self is not the
62:15
truest thing that there is something
62:17
greater if I will give my life for
62:19
another person it’s almost an
62:20
acknowledgment of oneness the temporal
62:23
nurse of the individuate itself and we
62:26
all work so hard to achieve
62:27
individuation and so much of your work
62:29
the clinical psychology of guiding
62:30
people towards it but for me it’s just a
62:33
temporary resting place because having
62:36
had the kind of experiences of personal
62:38
humiliation annihilation success failure
62:40
for the decimation you know all of these
62:43
things that what I’ve been led to and
62:45
what I continue to struggle with is how
62:47
do how do I serve how am I have service
62:51
how do I help people that is the
62:54
solution to the problem it’s like I
62:55
don’t think the solution to the problem
62:57
of inequality is sociological I think
62:59
it’s psychological I mean partly what I
63:01
try because it’s closer to essence
63:03
because it’s more essential or because a
63:06
society has to be a reflection of
63:08
individual psyches or collective psyches
63:10
why is a psychological the temptation
63:13
the temptation towards resentment and
63:16
destruction that’s associated with
63:18
sociological approaches to inequality is
63:21
too great and that as a consequence
63:23
those those movements tend inexorably to
63:26
become corrupt and destructive because I
63:29
think Orwell put his finger on it when
63:31
he said that middle class socialists
63:33
don’t like the poor they just hate the
63:35
rich and that hatred I think that hatred
63:38
gets the upper hand in sociological
63:40
movements I think that the best approach
63:43
to ameliorating inequalities to
63:45
strengthen the individual I mean that’s
63:47
and that’s what I’ve concentrated on
63:49
doing what we have this program the self
63:51
authoring suite and there’s a component
63:54
of that that helps people write an
63:55
autobiography and another component that
63:57
helps them write an analysis of their
63:59
personality and another component that
64:01
helps them write out a plan for the
64:02
future and we’ve used that we’ve studied
64:05
the effect of having people write out a
64:07
detailed plan for their future and it’s
64:09
a proper plan it’s like okay look you
64:11
you get to have what you want three to
64:13
five years down the road you
64:14
to have the friends you want you get to
64:16
have the family you want you get to have
64:17
the career you want the education you
64:19
get you get to take care of yourself
64:21
properly
64:21
you get to withstand the temptations of
64:25
drug and alcohol abuse and other sorts
64:26
of impulsive pleasures you get to make
64:28
productive and meaningful use of your
64:30
time okay what does that look like for
64:32
you write it out what does it look like
64:35
just you need a vision and then you need
64:37
another vision of how terrible things
64:38
could be if you let all your bad habits
64:40
get the upper hand and we’ve had people
64:42
do that in an experimental situation and
64:44
mostly they were college students and
64:46
the consequences of that there were two
64:48
consequences one was general which was
64:52
that University students were about 30%
64:55
more likely to stay in University and
64:56
got grades there were about 25% better
64:59
this is a walloping effect but even more
65:01
interestingly and this is the coolest
65:03
thing I think that we ever discovered us
65:05
in our psychological research we did
65:08
this research in Holland at the at the
65:13
Erasmus University in Rotterdam at the
65:14
Rotterdam School of Management and we
65:16
ran business students through the future
65:19
authoring program for multiple years so
65:21
several thousands of them and we
65:23
stratified them by gender and ethnicity
65:26
pretty a pretty rough cut men women and
65:29
then Dutch nationals and non-western
65:32
ethnic minorities okay and so that the
65:35
performance was like this the Dutch
65:36
women were at the top then the Dutch man
65:39
then then the non-western ethnic
65:43
minority women then the non-western
65:45
ethnic minority men and they were behind
65:47
the Dutch women bye bye bye oh they they
65:51
should about an 80 percent decrement in
65:53
performance really quite catastrophic
65:55
two years after they did the future
65:57
authoring program they were ahead of the
65:58
Dutch women it just blew us away because
66:01
it was and it was a perfect indication
66:03
of the fact that you can use a
66:05
psychological intervention to ameliorate
66:07
what looks like a sociological problem
66:09
and so I think the right see I think the
66:12
right solution and this is what I’ve
66:14
been saying over and over in my my
66:16
lectures and in this book 12 rules for
66:17
life and this is why I think it’s become
66:20
so popular I said look you’re right you
66:22
were right you said earlier in the last
66:25
question
66:26
well you can’t ignore the group
66:28
classification problem you know there’s
66:30
a black experience there’s a Latino
66:31
experience there’s a female experience
66:33
it’s like yeah that’s true but you have
66:36
to decide what level of analysis you’re
66:37
gonna make primary and I think the
66:40
primary level of analysis is the
66:42
individual and the psychological rather
66:44
than the group and the sociological and
66:46
I think if you put the individual level
66:48
first and then you alluded to that
66:49
because it was it was like an intuition
66:51
that you were bringing forward which was
66:53
your intuitionist being that the right
66:55
level of progress is made at the level
66:57
of the individual and I think that’s
66:59
true I hope that’s the only level where
67:01
I have personal authority as well right
67:04
and also personal responsibility because
67:07
the here’s the thing like here’s the
67:08
rule how about this don’t recommend any
67:12
changes that you wouldn’t suffer for if
67:16
they failed how’s that and that’s the
67:21
problem with large-scale political
67:22
action it’s like well here’s how we
67:23
should change things it’s like well they
67:25
changed them it’s well if it fails
67:27
doesn’t bother me it doesn’t hurt me I’m
67:29
not involved in it it’s like you should
67:32
be careful when you try to change things
67:34
to make sure you loose or for your own
67:35
stupid of course of course Jordan but
67:37
that also plays into the hands of
67:39
conservatism because you know when you
67:41
said like that left-wing change tends to
67:44
be sort of potentially destructive these
67:47
are of course these are not just
67:49
left-wing shit yes right-wing radicals
67:51
too and even not yeah there and also
67:53
there is sort of conventional politics
67:55
and the ecological impact that it has
67:57
the inequality which are like a whilst
67:59
you’re saying you continue to say that
68:01
the the problem of inequality is an
68:03
anthropological biological cause I’m a
68:06
logical musical problem it’s a really
68:08
deep problem it’s a deep problem and for
68:10
me whenever you get near a problem that
68:11
has that level of profundity or ubiquity
68:14
the solution can only be spiritually we
68:17
have to access the transcendent in some
68:19
way to look for solutions and although
68:21
that sounds a little airy-fairy believe
68:23
that why do you believe that I mean I’m
68:25
not disputing that but you obviously
68:27
believe ID playas
68:28
what what drove you to that conclusion
68:30
I’ve been driven to this conclusion by
68:32
the experiences of personal failure and
68:35
personal limitation by the failure of
68:37
individuation by the failure of my own
68:40
grandiosity
68:41
the failure of my own ego the failure of
68:44
Fame and power and money and sex and
68:47
drugs the the inability of them to reach
68:49
me in the belly of the beast deep deep
68:52
deep down whether Leviathan is this
68:54
these cures this alchemy was redundant
68:58
and what I have realized I think this
69:00
the spiritual journey for me the hero
69:03
turn in like you know I’m using
69:04
reference points in which you are an
69:06
expert and a professor is that that the
69:09
death of the smallest self and the
69:11
realization of the capital s self means
69:13
become a servant become a servant of
69:16
good use your abilities to generate the
69:19
maximum amount of love the maximum about
69:21
amount of kindness and compassion and to
69:24
be alert to where I can be of most use
69:27
now for me that can be incredibly
69:28
limited because I’m still a deep leave
69:30
it isto called narcissistic flawed
69:32
failing individual but what my focus is
69:35
what my intention is what I’m trying to
69:37
learn to become in this journey of
69:38
self-realization is a compassionate and
69:41
loving man and I was also said you added
69:43
something well you hadn’t useful to that
69:46
yeah useful you’re wrong usually the
69:48
finished well that’s it so the best
69:50
definition of Christian compassion that
69:52
I ever read was useful and generous hmm
69:55
right useful and generous mmm right and
70:00
so I would say the Conservatives in air
70:02
the Conservatives promote the useful end
70:05
of the distribution and liberals promote
70:07
the generous end but no lions need to be
70:10
brought together and I would say and
70:11
given that they yourself have said the
70:13
problem for example of hierarchies
70:15
exists on a far broader spectrum than
70:17
the political that these than the narrow
70:19
like when you were saying like on the
70:20
whole left-wing Democrat or Republican
70:22
governments or left-wing right-wing
70:24
governments have produced similar
70:27
immense ad it’s I’m not happy about this
70:30
no sad thing doesn’t it suggests also
70:32
Jordan that the range of solution that
70:34
we be offered is too limited yes I don’t
70:38
think it suggests that I think it in
70:40
Democrats yes and this is why I think
70:42
that the problem of inequality has to be
70:44
taken with more seriousness than it’s
70:45
being taken and the role of the
70:47
individual another obviously you would
70:48
focus on this is a clinical psychologist
70:50
is paramount because
70:52
because I kind of believe when I think
70:54
about sort of verse of a fluctuating
70:56
vivid grotesque right-wing phenomena
70:59
such as Donald Trump I don’t blame
71:01
people who vote for Donald Trump I
71:03
understand why people feel furious I
71:05
understand the emotion of anger and rage
71:08
and I suspect that all all that plays
71:12
out on the zoetrope of the material
71:13
realm is a reflection of the activity in
71:16
the psyche activity in the emotion how
71:18
could it be otherwise except for here of
71:19
course you say occurs in lobsters and
71:21
nature so that suggests it’s even more
71:23
profound the psyche is deeper than just
71:27
human right the psyche is all a
71:30
universal conscious and unconscious mind
71:32
so I suppose what I suppose what I’m
71:35
thinking is how what my interest is is
71:38
how come yes but let me ask you a
71:41
question go on what do you think that
71:43
you’ve done in the last year that’s good
71:44
they are mostly small things okay acts
71:48
of kindness I have a daughter you have a
71:51
good relationship with her so that seems
71:53
to be a good thing that’s been beautiful
71:54
that’s been sort of in fact that is
71:56
hugely significant my newfound ability
71:59
to live at what one might refer to as an
72:01
ordinary domestic life my willingness to
72:03
let go of other people’s perception of
72:05
me these things have all been hugely
72:06
significant and my sort of I would say
72:09
my dedication to sort of
72:11
self-improvement in areas that could
72:12
still be regarded as selfish is one
72:14
thing still an improvement I sort of
72:16
take exercised to look after myself from
72:17
that drug and alcohol free for like 15
72:19
years and it’s at this point that the
72:20
epiphanies are beginning to sort of
72:22
coalesce the things that I feel are
72:24
perhaps most important is to let go
72:27
self-centeredness when I when I conduct
72:28
myself and when I’m not continually
72:30
thinking what can I get when I don’t
72:32
look at the outside world as a resource
72:34
when I don’t think what can that person
72:35
give me what can they give me when I
72:36
think instead I have a chapter on that
72:38
and it’s called it says do what is
72:41
meaningful not what is expedient and to
72:44
to view the world as a place of
72:47
resources that can be delivered to you
72:49
it’s in some sense to be expedient is to
72:52
take the short term it’s to take the
72:54
approach of short-term gratification
72:55
something like that
72:57
yes self-centered is materialistic too
72:59
well it is materialistic but it’s also
73:01
it’s also it’s not optimal and it’s not
73:05
wise and there is
73:06
for that is is that it actually turns
73:08
out like if we’re gonna have it if we
73:09
had to continuing the relationship I
73:11
would want to try to do a little bit
73:13
more for you than you do for me and I
73:16
could do that even purely selfishly say
73:18
because if I did a little bit more for
73:20
you than you did for me you would want
73:21
to keep interacting with me how does
73:23
that all right so because me and you I
73:24
think get on relatively easy we’ve found
73:26
a frequency to communicate on but say
73:28
someone like the woman with high in
73:30
openness open openness is a good service
73:33
now what about the woman on Channel 4
73:35
News who seemed more agitated and stuff
73:38
like do like me so you’re actually
73:41
having a conversation we’re trying to
73:43
have a conversation that’s oriented
73:45
towards discovering some and you think
73:47
she has a sort of a series of linear or
73:49
not some FETs and she was just dropping
73:51
and regarded oh okay definitely that’s
73:53
exactly what happened except once there
73:56
was once
73:56
oh and you and you’ll be mean to me and
73:58
she was a bit like found it yeah yeah
74:00
well when I caught momenta there on her
74:01
ability to plebeians on the spot when
74:03
she said the shell is the wrong thing to
74:05
do you know yes yes no you are not good
74:10
they make you’re a clinical psychologist
74:12
but in this moment do you not feel or no
74:15
luck it’s a question that could be you
74:16
could easily pose to me feel like right
74:18
I just want this but that’s the person
74:20
that’s been in front of you that’s the
74:22
world in that moment I don’t think you
74:23
were hostile to that person I may say
74:25
but like do you not feel like in in that
74:27
moment it would be of value and of
74:30
service to nurture that person yeah yes
74:33
well I had a conversation with a friend
74:35
of mine very smart friend of mine his
74:38
name is Wayne maretskiy he’s quite the
74:41
he’s quite the character wing but he
74:43
what he watched and I’ve had people
74:45
watch what I’ve been doing for the last
74:46
18 months lots of people and they report
74:49
on what they think about what I’m doing
74:51
and so I asked Wayne about the interview
74:52
and you know he was happy about the fact
74:55
that I conducted myself with a certain
74:57
amount of calm and detachment and but he
75:00
did say something very interesting there
75:01
was this there was the kind of a
75:03
culmination of that interview was where
75:05
Kathy was challenging me about my right
75:08
to say things that might offend someone
75:10
and I said well I said essentially look
75:12
you’ve based your whole career and this
75:14
interview on that right
75:16
you know and congratulations to you
75:18
that’s what you should be doing
75:19
then she was taken aback by that and I
75:22
said gotcha and she she knows she was
75:26
sort of flustered and she said well yeah
75:27
you did and Wayne said you know you
75:30
could have instead of saying gotcha at
75:32
that point you could have taken the
75:34
opportunity there to to expand on that
75:38
opening and to try to have Jesse Unruh
75:40
say shit down there is Lorna the lane
75:44
for not doing that you know Christian
75:46
thing yeah yeah in that moment so I
75:49
thought and I thought about that a lot I
75:51
thought well that I think there were
75:53
limitations in the format like by that
75:56
time I were about 25 minutes into the
75:58
interview you know so it was coming it
76:00
was coming close to an end and you know
76:01
sometimes being funny cuz I think it was
76:04
reasonably funny it was reasonably witty
76:06
sometimes that’s okay too
76:07
well that’s why comedians are useful yes
76:10
yes say funny things but it’s just in
76:13
yeah hopefully they can get away with it
76:17
right and I think that that’s often an
76:20
extremely effective conversational
76:23
maneuver because he actually as a matter
76:24
of fact you said something I come into
76:25
this and nothing I’m just frying a few
76:27
things at you now because you know the
76:29
reason I do this because I start doing a
76:30
good degree at a university equals so s
76:32
called religion in global politics and
76:33
one of the main things they taught
76:34
taught me there are one of the things
76:36
I’ve intrigued me is the first thing I
76:37
show you is this bit of bourgeois
76:39
there’s barely literature by bourgeois
76:40
where some story can remember it called
76:42
the Chinese emperor system of taxonomy
76:44
we’re a show and the stories of the
76:46
house I love that game and I’m liking
76:48
itself and part of the courses they talk
76:50
about who gets to determine what words
76:52
like natural or power you know who gets
76:55
to determine how those terms are
76:56
allocated I think that who gets to
76:58
determine what’s deemed religious well
77:01
daddy Michael ejected to Bill c16
77:03
because I wasn’t going to let the
77:05
radical leftist decide the linguistic
77:07
playing ground and that’s what they were
77:09
trying to do you see there their
77:10
rationale was we’re on the side of
77:12
transgender people I thought no you’re
77:14
not you’re trying to control the
77:15
linguistic territory in a sense look
77:17
this is where this conversation is a
77:20
cure the parallels the conversation I
77:22
had with Sam Harris but if Sam Harris
77:24
what I found myself saying is but why so
77:27
worried about this one particular issue
77:30
of
77:31
jealousness or extremism when it seems
77:34
that power is actually situated
77:36
elsewhere it seems to me that here I’m
77:38
last you know in that instance I suppose
77:40
because that was the instance that came
77:42
you away you you as you term it the
77:44
radical left you know imposition of
77:46
certain rules around language that you
77:47
that was the reason for me but you have
77:51
also continued to furrow or plow that
77:53
furrow haven’t you have consider you
77:54
down a sort of a line that seems like
77:56
teleologically sensible with what
77:59
happened there like it continues to
78:01
who’s like you know I know exactly like
78:03
I agreed with your analysis of the word
78:04
proverb provocateur if you don’t you
78:06
know as a person is provoked if they’re
78:07
not provoked you’re not a provocateur so
78:09
it’s a difficult label to apply to
78:11
anybody but it seems to me that you know
78:14
when something when people say you know
78:16
young males are particularly sort of
78:19
attracted to your work I do see that
78:22
this is a time where males need guidance
78:26
and like where there isn’t the kind of
78:28
elders our elders customs initiations
78:32
routes to masculinity or in short supply
78:35
I can see that there’s a real value in
78:38
that but I also feel that in this time
78:41
of social contention I’d any politics
78:44
being part of it
78:45
and conflict that ideas that promote
78:49
unity and the emulation of those kind of
78:54
boundaries or something would be
78:56
particularly and especially valuable you
78:59
know again but I think the right way to
79:00
do that is to concentrate on the
79:02
individual and so well so let me answer
79:04
that in two ways the first thing the
79:06
first issue is that it isn’t
79:08
self-evident that the reason that my
79:12
what I’ve been talking about has been
79:14
attractive to young men that might be
79:17
like a fluke and it might be a fluke
79:20
because almost everybody who watches
79:22
YouTube is male yeah so like if I look
79:25
at my YouTube audience it’s 80% male but
79:27
that’s true of YouTube audiences in
79:29
general so it’s just a typical you well
79:31
right right and so what’s how about you
79:33
intuition well because I already did say
79:36
me something I don’t make complicated
79:37
than that but I do know that since my
79:39
book has come out I’ve been watching the
79:42
demographics of my
79:44
of my public audience that more and more
79:46
and more women are coming out so it’s
79:48
now to about 65 35 from 80/20 and more
79:52
and more older people are coming out to
79:53
so I think a fair bit of it was a
79:55
consequence of the fact that most of my
79:58
exposure and was to the YouTube audience
80:01
which happens to be mostly men now I do
80:04
also think that there is a particular
80:08
crisis with regards to what might be
80:10
described as proper pathways to
80:12
masculinity I also think that’s at play
80:14
so I think there’s two factors but I
80:16
also I don’t think that Kathy Newman
80:19
kind of went after me about this you
80:20
know she said well you know if you’re
80:21
directing your message towards young men
80:23
which I wasn’t but assuming that’s the
80:26
case isn’t that divisive and I would say
80:28
well I don’t think it is divisive
80:30
because first of all the masculine in
80:32
women also needs to be developed it’s
80:35
very very important and the people who
80:37
are the enemies of the masculine in men
80:39
are also the enemies of the masculine
80:41
and women so if you over protect your
80:43
sons let’s say you don’t want to you
80:45
don’t want to you want to you you over
80:49
protect them in part and and weaken them
80:51
because you’re afraid of their masculine
80:53
energy you’re going to do exactly the
80:54
same thing your daughter’s so that that
80:56
so that the even and that female a
80:58
female child would similarly be
81:00
disempowered so definitely because you
81:03
know the thing is and this is another
81:04
thing is that I am a psychometrician
81:06
that’s technically my my job and we
81:10
study Mitch it’s may our measurement
81:12
well and like it’s a truism of
81:14
psychometrics that men and women are
81:17
more the same than they are different
81:19
you know it’s funny because I’ve been
81:21
sort of positioned as someone who is
81:23
constantly on about the differences
81:25
between men and women but men and women
81:27
are more the same than they are
81:28
different and what that means is that
81:30
the development of masculinity and women
81:33
perhaps it’s not as important as the
81:35
development of masculinity and men but
81:37
it’s damn important it’s like it’s a
81:39
close second and so if people are
81:42
pushing down masculinity as a virtuous
81:45
mode of being then it has a detrimental
81:47
effect on both
81:50
but but you would say determinately
81:53
there and biologically that there is a
81:54
thing that is masculinity
81:56
and that thing masculinity is present in
81:58
both females and males definitely but I
82:01
think again one of the one of the
82:03
challenges that this argument or the
82:06
appears to be built around is a sort of
82:08
hierarchy around those trades
82:11
masculinity being synonymous for example
82:14
with power well here’s the thing I
82:15
wanted to bloody ask you
82:17
check this Axios it but I said it on a
82:18
YouTube video on my own the other day
82:20
and a 4c wonder if this stands up to
82:22
scrutiny
82:22
let’s give it a bit check this I said
82:25
like in Sweden they’re banning sexually
82:27
provocative advertising you know it’s
82:29
the kind of thing you hear a lot about
82:30
like the objectification of women I said
82:32
of course I support that because there’s
82:33
a male being subjected to lots of
82:35
sexualized images of women as to a
82:38
degree affected you know particularly
82:40
when I was younger my or the logical
82:42
conclusion of that was pornography right
82:44
yes that doesn’t really seem to be a
82:46
good thing it doesn’t seem to be a good
82:48
thing I don’t look at pornography
82:49
anymore like the pornography I think is
82:52
yeah very corrupting corrosive influence
82:54
or you know for me personally I want to
82:57
be involved if I said this check this I
82:59
go zone
82:59
I feel the use of the female in
83:03
advertising and commodification in
83:05
general is there is the perverted desire
83:10
to worship the feminine the negated and
83:14
neglected feminine has found its
83:17
expression through consumerism and
83:19
commerce because it is not being
83:21
properly honored socially what you made
83:26
up I would have to think that I’d have
83:29
to think about that a long time I would
83:30
have to think about that a long time
83:32
good idea that is an answer it
83:33
it’s it’s an idea worth we’re thinking
83:36
about for a while like if there are
83:38
sensual if we have essential yearnings
83:40
if we have like you know like eg if we
83:42
if the in a lie in if in indigenous
83:46
cultures we would have deities to
83:48
represent gender or certain energies
83:51
that are subtler than gender if there is
83:54
a sense that socially those energies are
83:56
not being expressed on it as you have
83:57
implied with your male or that ways
84:00
definitely the case so one of the things
84:01
that I’ve often thought about ideologies
84:03
is that they’re they’re like parasites
84:05
on religious structures and if you’re
84:07
thinking that the the movement of
84:09
feminine imagery up into the consumerist
84:11
world is an analog or is at least
84:14
impartial harsh part a consequence of
84:17
not having a symbolic place where that
84:19
attraction can be expressed I think
84:21
that’s probably right it was like it’s
84:23
like in the United States is that the
84:25
first family tends to be turned into
84:26
king and queen yeah because there’s no
84:28
place for that symbolic projection yeah
84:30
the template requires it yeah I heard
84:32
once an analysis of the Soviet Union
84:34
after the Revolution that it mimicked
84:37
the monarchic tyranny that preceded it
84:40
just in a different format right AC yeah
84:44
that there’s so certain images holy
84:46
trinity even right yes
84:47
Mao Marx Lenin amazing mark Stalin
84:51
depending on the Trinity
84:52
and some would argue that we know that
84:55
Christianity couldn’t take hold in Latin
84:57
America until they embrace the pantheon
84:59
ISM of the Saints and fountain the
85:00
figure of the Virgin until they’re like
85:03
they know that in certain cultures the
85:05
the Virgin had to be elevated because
85:07
there isn’t a place in the Father Son
85:09
Holy Ghost for the Divine Feminine you
85:12
know that’s a union idea yeah yeah
85:15
that’s an original idea of yours is that
85:18
the Trinity is missing a quartile and
85:20
sometimes that’s quartile is filled by
85:23
the figure of the devil and sometimes
85:24
it’s filled by the figure of the woman
85:25
so it’s like it’s like the houses in an
85:28
Harry Potter right there’s three good
85:30
houses and Slytherin this in the bottom
85:33
quadrant it’s a it’s a reflection of the
85:35
same kind of Mandela structure that’s
85:36
pretty cool it’s very cool very cool
85:39
have a place at the table for the
85:41
serpent you have another place hmm what
85:43
about apples and Sleeping Beauty right
85:45
in the Disney movies they don’t let in
85:47
that they don’t groan that’s right they
85:49
don’t invite her to the christening and
85:50
so their daughter ends up unconscious
85:52
they don’t let the terrible mother come
85:55
to the party so how it ends up
85:56
unconscious in our domestic normal
85:58
everyday cotillion lives what is the
86:01
terrible mother how does that feel
86:02
protection over protection don’t over
86:05
protect the baby lay and fall over a
86:07
little bit that’s right you do do the
86:08
least amount possible for your children
86:10
it’s something like that
86:11
that’s not neglect it’s nothing like
86:13
that it’s like the old age home adage
86:15
you know look I’ve seen this lots of
86:17
times with parents it’s like maybe you
86:19
have to get your kid dressed up to go
86:20
out well it takes a long time if you let
86:23
your kid do it you know and see a lot
86:25
faster just to do it it’s a lot faster
86:27
not to have them set the table it’s a
86:29
lot faster to do things for them
86:30
plus there’s there’s also and this is
86:33
part of the devouring mother archetype
86:35
it’s like if you’ve devoted your life to
86:37
a child perhaps more than you should
86:40
have
86:40
let’s say then it’s very difficult to
86:43
let the child go yeah what what’s there
86:45
left for you and so there’s this
86:47
terrible temptation to play well I’ll do
86:50
everything for you but you never leave
86:52
me and then for the child to say yeah
86:54
that’s right that’s exactly the right
86:56
face to make for that that’s a very
86:57
terrible thing and you see that again in
86:59
Disney’s Sleeping Beauty where
87:00
Maleficent has the heroic prints in the
87:03
dungeon it’s laughing at him right she’s
87:05
not gonna let him go until he’s ancient
87:06
and that’s and that’s a consequence
87:09
where else do we see the devouring
87:10
mother what some good pop cultural
87:12
examples of what doesn’t he movies all
87:14
the time I wake up in little in Little
87:17
Mermaid Ursula mother the devouring
87:20
mother shows up all the time she’s the
87:22
witch she’s the swamp dweller she’s the
87:25
she’s the Evil Queen in Snow White
87:27
what’s the counterpoint the fairy
87:29
godmother yeah fairy godmothers one yeah
87:31
that’s the positive feminine and that
87:33
happened that archetype manifests itself
87:35
all over the place as well the the fairy
87:37
godmother is a good one yeah and you see
87:39
in in Sleeping Beauty there’s three of
87:42
them three little fairies that take care
87:43
of the princess in the forest there
87:45
they’re the archetype of the positive
87:46
feminine so so you always see one of the
87:50
things that distinguishes a religious
87:52
viewpoint from an ideological viewpoint
87:54
is that there’s always a representation
87:56
of nature or the unknown always you need
87:59
one and Holy Ghost in Christianity is
88:04
not known well in Christianity I’d have
88:07
to think about that for a minute
88:10
party party it’s the Virgin Mother it’s
88:12
mostly positive representation in
88:14
Christianity so and that would be the
88:17
representation of the benevolence of
88:19
nature it’s something like that so
88:21
that’s the unknown but in a religious
88:24
representation you
88:25
have the positive and the positive the
88:28
negative aspect of the feminine that’s
88:30
also the unknown you have the positive
88:31
and negative aspect of them of the of
88:33
the state that’s the wise King and the
88:36
end that devouring King and you have the
88:38
positive and negative representation of
88:39
the individual and the reason it’s
88:42
religious in some sense it’s hard to
88:44
explain why in a very short period of
88:46
time but a religious viewpoint always
88:48
gives you a balanced viewpoint that’s
88:50
what makes it religious it’s like
88:51
there’s a positive element that’s
88:53
intensely positive but there’s the
88:55
negative counterpart and there’s a
88:56
positive so let me give you an example
89:00
here I can give you an example of how
89:03
this plays out there can typically the
89:06
frontier myth that settled the West was
89:08
essentially heroic individual positive
89:10
bringing the benefits of order and
89:14
culture positive to the desolate barren
89:17
wastelands of the West ok so it’s
89:19
positive individual positive culture
89:21
negative nature ok so that’s an ideology
89:25
but it’s a powerful story because it’s
89:26
true heroic individual bearer of culture
89:29
barren desolate wasteland it’s true but
89:32
one of the things that eventually
89:34
generated was a counter narrative and
89:36
not because it was only half the story
89:38
that counter narrative was the
89:39
environmental narrative which was
89:40
rapacious individual bringing pillaging
89:44
society into benevolent nature and they
89:47
had to recast the indigenous people that
89:49
lived on those land masses as savages
89:51
not entitled to the same rights yeah
89:54
wasn’t heroic individual and there were
89:56
two there were actually two competing
89:58
tendencies in in the Western mind one
90:00
was the noble savage so that was the
90:02
Roussel exactly and the other was
90:04
Dennison you know barbaric denizen of
90:07
the uninhabited land after only one hour
90:09
in annotations the romantic idea of the
90:11
noble savage became some sort of
90:13
whimsical new ancient thing and the
90:14
other one and the other one the Dennison
90:16
barbarian became justification for
90:19
genocide all right let me look wrap up
90:21
because I can feel the technological
90:22
angst in a variety of ways but dr.
90:26
droolin Pearson or professor Jordan
90:27
Pearson that they know how to big you up
90:29
enough with their with your prologue and
90:31
thank you your title thank you very much
90:33
I’ve really found it fascinating
90:35
have you enjoyed the conversation good
90:38
appreciated the invitation
90:47
you

Joe Rogan Experience #1139 – Jordan Peterson

45:04
you’ll be able to participate in and if
he’s fun to play with in adults we’ll
teach him things and then he wins at
life and so when you say to your kid it
doesn’t matter whether you win or lose
matters how you play the game what
you’re saying is don’t forget kid that
what you’re trying to do here is to do
well at life and you need to practice
the strategies that enable you to do
well at life well you’re in any specific
game and you never want to compromise
your ability to do well at life for the
sake of winning a single game and
there’s a deep ethic in that and it’s
the ethic of reciprocity in games part
of the reason that we’re so obsessed
with sports is because we like to see
that dramatized you know like the person
we really admire as an athlete isn’t
only the person who wins we don’t like
the narcissistic winners they’re winners
and that’s a plus but if they’re
narcissistic they’re not good team
players they’re only out for themselves
then we think well you’re a winner in
the narrow sense but your character is
suspect you’re no role model even though
you’re a winner and it’s because
we’re looking for something deeper we’re
looking for that the manifestation of
character that allows you to win across
the set of possible games and that’s a
real thing that’s a real ethic it’s a
46:13
fundamental ethic I think what you’re
46:15
pointing out that’s very important is
46:16
we’re we’re searching for the person
46:18
who’s got it all nailed someone who
46:21
tries their hardest but is also honest
46:25
enough about the circumstances to not
46:28
cry foul when it’s gone
46:30
the other person’s way yeah well that’s
46:32
part of resilience that’s right like
46:34
you’re not gonna win it you’re not going
46:36
to you’re not gonna score on every shot
46:37
right it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take
46:39
the shots doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try
46:40
to to hit the goal but part of part of
46:43
being able to continue to take shots is
46:46
to have the strength of character to
46:48
tolerate the fact that that in that
46:49
instance you weren’t on top it’s more
46:52
trivial in games than it is in fights
46:55
and it’s also the response is much more
46:59
negative to the from the fans if you
47:01
lose a fight and complain about it it is
47:04
it’s ruthless there because they
47:07
understand that you’ve made a huge
47:09
character error yeah so why do you think
47:12
it’s more important in fights than it is
47:14
in games why do you think it is because
47:15
the consequences are so grave because
47:17
you recognize that the high is much
47:19
higher and the lows are much lower to
47:21
lose a basketball game sucks but it’s
47:23
nothing like losing a fight there’s no
47:25
comparison it’s not even so what do you
think it is the damages the fighter if
he complains about losing why is that a
mistake why do the fans respond so
negatively to that because they know
they know that you lost they know that
you’re complaining for no reason and
you’re not a hero
they want you to be better than them
they want you to be the person that has
the courage to step into a cage or a
47:47
ring or wherever you with whatever the
47:49
format is you’re competing and to do
47:51
something that’s extremely difficult and
47:53
when you do that they hold you to a
47:54
higher state right to lose with grace
47:56
yes and when you fall especially if you
47:58
were a champion that is one of the most
48:00
disappointing things ever when champion
48:02
complains right and and it is okay so
48:04
response is horrific from the audience
48:06
okay so that’s a great example so let’s
48:08
imagine what does the person who loses
48:11
something important with grace do and
48:13
the answer is fairly straightforward
48:16
accepts the defeat and thinks okay what
48:18
what is it that I have left to improve
48:21
that will decrease the possibility of a
48:22
similar defeat in the future yes right
48:24
soso so what he’s doing is because the
48:27
great athlete and the great person is
48:30
not only someone who’s exceptionally
48:31
skilled at what they do but who’s trying
48:33
to expand their skills at all at all
48:35
times yes and the attempt to expand
48:38
their skills at all times is even more
48:40
important than the fact that they’re
48:41
great to begin with because the
48:42
trajectory is so important more
48:43
important in particular to the audience
48:46
it’s extremely important the audience
48:48
because you are the person who’s
48:49
competing you are expecting them to live
48:52
out this life in a perfect way or in a
48:54
much more powerful way than you’re
48:55
capable yes and so part of that is the
48:57
skill because they put in the practice
48:59
but part of that also is the willingness
49:01
to push the skill farther into new
49:03
domains of development with each action
49:05
and that’s really what people like to
49:07
watch right they don’t like to watch a
49:08
perfect athletic performance they like
49:10
to watch a perfect athletic performance
49:12
that’s pushed into the domain of new
49:14
risk they want to see both at the same
49:16
time you’re really good at what you do
49:18
and you’re getting better okay so you
49:19
lose a match which is not any indication
49:22
that you’re not good at what you do you
49:23
might not be as good as the person who
beat you but if you lose the match and
then whine what you’ve done is sacrifice
the higher order principle of constant
improvement of your own skills yes
because you should be analyzing the loss
and saying the reason I lost insofar as
it’s relevant to this particular time
and place is the insufficiencies I
manifested that defeated me and I need
49:45
to track those insufficiencies so that I
49:47
can rectify them in the future and if
49:48
I’m blaming it on you or the referees or
49:50
the situation that I’m not taking
49:53
responsibility and I’m not pushing
49:54
myself forward and so then you also take
49:56
the meaning out of it like one of the
49:58
things I’ve been doing on my tour people
50:01
are criticizing me to some degree for
50:03
saying things to people that are obvious
50:04
well first of all it’s not like I didn’t
50:06
bloody well know they were obvious when
50:08
I wrote those rulings you were the rules
50:10
in my book for example stand up straight
50:12
with your shoulders back you know treat
50:14
yourself like you’re someone responsible
50:16
for helping it’s like I know perfectly
50:18
well that those can be read as cliches
50:20
the question is cliche let’s say is
50:23
something that’s so true that it’s that
50:25
it’s become that it’s become it’s widely
50:29
accepted by everyone well but we don’t
50:31
know why it’s true anymore and so it’s
50:35
this issue that the issue that we’re
50:37
talking about here or the issue of being
50:38
a good sport we need to figure out why
50:40
that’s true and the reason that it’s
50:42
true is that you’re trying to push your
50:44
development farther than you’ve already
50:45
developed at every point in time and now
50:47
that’s the proper that’s the proper
50:49
moral attitude so
50:56
when you see an athletic performance
50:58
where someone is pushing themselves
50:59
beyond what they are you see someone
51:01
dramatizing the process of proper
51:03
adaptation it isn’t the skill itself
51:05
it’s the extension of the skill when you
51:07
see someone acting like a bad sport then
51:09
they’re sacrificing that and so they’re
51:10
sacrificing the higher for the lower and
51:12
no one likes that in the fights it’s got
51:15
to be see the question is that’s the
51:17
thing I can’t quite figure out is why
51:19
that would be even exaggerated in a
51:20
fight situation and you said it’s
51:23
because the stakes are so high
51:24
yeah the consequences of victory or
51:26
defeat they’re just so much greater
51:29
there’s your your health is on the line
51:32
it’s one of the rare things that you do
51:34
where your health is on the line your
51:37
physical health right so there’s more
51:38
extreme victories and more game defeats
51:40
and so the morality that’s associated
51:42
with defeat is more extreme exactly
51:44
because there’s more on the line and the
51:48
way people treat the champions it’s it’s
51:50
a it’s a very different thing it’s the
51:53
the respect and adulation that a
51:55
champion receives is it’s the pinnacle
51:58
of sports in terms of the the love from
52:01
the audience when someone wins a great
52:04
fight it’s there’s nothing like it and
52:06
this is one of the reasons why these
52:07
people are willing to put their health
52:09
on the line because that high the high
52:11
of victory and it’s not just a victory
52:14
it’s a you know what what is that who
52:16
was it who said the victory is really
52:21
the victory over the lesser you it’s a
52:24
victory it’s always the victory is over
52:28
you’ve got to realize a guy like steep a
52:30
Miocic who defends is heavyweight title
52:33
this weekend in the UFC he is he’s the
52:37
heavyweight champion the world but he’s
52:39
not undefeated he lost in his career
52:41
he’s lost a couple of times and he you
52:43
know as I’m sure he’s lost wrestling
52:45
matches and sparring sessions in the gym
52:48
and all he’s a product of improvement
52:51
right he’s a product of discipline and
52:53
hard work and thinking and strategy and
52:56
constantly improving upon his skills and
52:58
so so in because of that he’s the
53:00
baddest man on the planet so my in my
53:01
book rule for is this is 12 excuse me
53:05
this is from 12 rules for life rule 4 is
53:09
come
53:10
carry yourself to who you were yesterday
53:11
not to who someone else is today yes
53:13
because you need to be you need to have
53:15
a hierarchy of improvement you need to
53:18
be aiming something for something and
53:19
that means you’re going to be lesser
53:20
than people who’ve always already
53:22
attained along that dimension yes and
53:23
that can give rise to envy so the
53:26
question is who should you defeat in the
53:27
final analysis and the answer is you
53:29
should defeat your former self
53:30
you should be constantly trying to do
53:32
that and you’re the right control for
53:34
yourself to because you’re the one who’s
53:36
had all your advantages and
53:37
disadvantages and so if you want to
53:39
compete fairly with someone then you
53:40
should be competing with you and it is
53:42
the case and this is what we were
53:44
talking about – with regards to the self
53:46
improvement of the fighter is well if
53:49
you’re improving yourself then what you
53:51
are doing is competing with your lesser
53:52
self and then you might also ask well
53:54
what is that lesser self and that lesser
53:57
self would be resentful and bitter and
53:59
and aggressive and vengeance seeking and
54:04
all of those things that go along with
54:05
having a negative moral character and
54:07
those are things that interfere with
54:08
your ability to progress as you move
54:10
forward through life so it’s very
54:13
necessary to understand that this is why
54:15
you know I’ve been stressing this idea
54:18
of personal responsibilities like well
54:20
personal responsibility is to compete
54:21
with yourself is to be slightly better
54:23
than yourself the next day and it better
54:25
in some way that you can actually manage
54:27
and that’s humility it’s right like well
54:29
I’m a flawed person and I’ve got all my
54:31
problems could I be as good as person X
54:34
it’s like not the right question the
54:36
right question is could you be slightly
54:38
better tomorrow than you’re currently
54:39
flawed self and the answer to that is if
54:41
you have enough humility to set the bar
54:44
properly low then you could be better
54:46
tomorrow than you are today because what
54:49
you also have to do is you have to say
54:51
well here’s all my flaws and my
54:54
insufficiencies and the best that
54:56
someone that flawed and insufficient
54:58
could do to improve and actually do it
55:00
is this and that’s not worth going out
55:02
in the street and celebrating with
55:03
plaque arts you know it’s like well this
55:05
is why I tell people to clean the room
55:07
it’s not going to brag to someone that
55:08
you did that but someone is insufficient
55:10
as you might be able to manage it and
55:12
that means you actually are on the
55:14
pathway to self improvement and you’re
55:15
transcending your former self and you
55:17
might say well what’s the right way of
55:19
being in the world if there is such a
55:21
thing and it’s not acting according to a
55:23
set of rules
55:24
it’s attempting continually to transcend
55:26
the flawed thing that you currently are
55:28
and what’s so interesting about that is
55:30
that the mean meaning in the meaning in
55:32
life is to be found in that pursuit so
59:56
it’s things are going really badly for
you and that there’s just chance
associated with that sometimes and you
and the people around you are doing
stupid things to make it worse it’s like
okay what have you got under those
circumstances you’ve got the possibility
to slowly raise yourself out of the mire
you’ve got that the possibility to do
just what the fighter does when he’s
defeated which is to say well regardless
of the circumstances that might have led
to my defeat like even if there were
errors on the part of the referee this
is no time to whine about it this is a
time to take stock of what I did wrong
so that I could improve it into the
future and that’s the right attitude you
know in the Old Testament one of the
things that’s really interesting about
the Old Testament stories is in the Old
Testament the Jews keep getting walloped
by God it’s like they struggle up and
make an empire and then they just get
walloped and then it’s all crushed in
there and they’re they’re out of it for
generations and then they struggle back
up and make an empire and then they get
demolished again and it happens over and
over and over and the the attitude of
the Old Testament Hebrews is we must
have made a mistake it’s never to shake
their fist at the sky and curse fate
it’s never that the presupposition is if
things aren’t working out it’s my fault
and that’s a hell of a presupposition
and you might say well of course you
know what’s that that underestimates the
degree to which there’s systemic
oppression etc etc and and the and the
vagaries of fate it’s like it doesn’t
over underestimate it it’s not the point
the point is your best strategic
61:28
position is how am i insufficient and
61:31
how can I rectify that that’s what
61:33
you’ve got and the thing is you are
61:35
insufficient and you could rectify it
both of those are within your grasp if
you aim low enough one of the things why
do you see the that’s another thing you
keep saying aim low enough have a low
enough bar why do you why do you mean
that well let’s say you’ve got a kid and
you want the kid to improve you don’t
set them a bar that’s so high that it’s
impossible for them to attain it you
take a look at the kid and you think
okay this kid’s got this range of skill
here’s a challenge we can throw at him
or her that exceeds their current level
of skill but gives them a
reasonable probability of success and so
like I’m saying it tongue-in-cheek to
some degree you know it’s like but if
you’re but I’m doing it as an aid to
humility it’s like well I don’t know how
to start improving my life someone might
say that and I would say well you’re not
aiming low enough there’s something you
could do that you are regarding is
trivial that that you could do that you
would do that would result in an actual
improvement but it’s not a big enough
improvement for you so you won’t lower
yourself enough to take the opportunity
incremental steps yes and so this is
also what is achieved through exercise
it’s one of the most important well what
do you do when you go and lift weights
you don’t go on like if you haven’t
bench press before you don’t put 400
pounds on the damn bar and drop the and
drop the bar through your skull I know
you think look when I started working
out when I was a kid I was I was wait
about a hundred and thirty pounds and I
was six foot one so thin kid and I
smoked a lot I wasn’t in good shape I
wasn’t in good physical shape and I went
to the gym and it was bloody
embarrassing you know when people would
come over and help me with the goddamn
weights here’s how you’re supposed to
use this you know it was humiliating and
maybe I was pressing 65 pounds or
something at that point you know but
what am I gonna do I’m gonna lift up a
hundred fifty pounds and injure myself
right off the bat no I had to go in
there and strip down and put my skinny
goddamn self in front of the mirror and
think son-of-a-bitch there’s all these
monsters in the gym who’ve been lifting
weights for ten years and I’m struggling
to get 50 pounds off the bar tough luck
for me but I could lift 50 pounds and it
wasn’t fair very long until I could lift
75 and well you know how it goes but and
I never injured myself when I was late
lifting and the reason for that was I
never pushed myself past where I knew I
could go and I pushed myself a lot you
know I gained 35 pounds of muscle in
about three years in University I kind
of had to quit because I was eating so
goddamn much I couldn’t stand it
seething like six meals a day it was
just taking up too much time but there’s
a humility in determining what it is
that the wretched creature that you are
can actually manage aim low and I don’t
mean don’t aim and I don’t mean don’t
aim up but you have to accept the fact
that you can set yourself a goal that
you can attain and there’s not going to
be much glory in it to begin with
because if you’re not in very good shape
the goal
Yuuka day could attain tomorrow isn’t
very glorious but it’s a hell of a lot
better than nothing and it beats the
hell out of bitterness and it’s way
better than blaming someone else it’s
way less dangerous and you could do it
and what’s cool about it there’s a
statement in the New Testament it’s
called the Matthew principle and
economists use it to describe how the
economy in the world works to those who
have everything more will be given from
those who have nothing everything will
be taken it’s like what’s very
pessimistic in some sense because it
means that as you start to fail you fail
more and more rapidly but it also means
that as you start to succeed you succeed
more and more rapidly and so you take an
incremental step and well now you can
64:58
lift 55 pounds instead of 52 point 5
65:01
pounds you think well what the hell is
65:02
that it’s like it’s one step on a very
65:04
long journey and so it’s it and it
65:07
starts to compound on you so a small
65:10
step today means puts you in a position
65:11
to take a slightly bigger step for the
65:13
next day and then that puts you in a
65:15
position to take a slightly bigger step
65:16
the next day and you do that for two or
65:18
three years man you’re starting to
65:20
stride you know what I have so many
65:22
people coming up to me now this is one
65:23
of the things that’s so insanely fun
65:25
about this tour which is so positive
65:27
it’s it brings me to tears regularly
65:30
it’s mind boggling because people come
65:32
up to me and this is happening wherever
65:34
I go now and they say they’re very
65:36
polite when they come and talk to me you
65:38
know and they’re always apologetic for
65:40
interrupting and so it’s never it’s
75:34
that what that means is that these kids
have been educated for twelve years and
no one had ever sat them down and said
okay what the hell are you doing and why
and how are you gonna get like where do
you want to go why do you want to get
there how are you gonna get there
how are you gonna mark your progress
they’ve never walked them through that
exercise you walk people through that
exercise just to get them to do that
increases the probability that they’ll
stay on track by 50% that’s incredible
well it’s one of the things I’ve always
complained about is that they know one
people teach you facts they don’t teach
you how to approach life they don’t
teach you how to think they don’t teach
you how to confront why do the
insecurities and different traps that
your mind will set up for you yeah well
that’s what partly what’s so fun about
doing this lecture tour because that’s
exactly what I’m talking to people about

..

83:28
right I’m transmitting information that
I’ve learned from very very wise people
and so there’s that but also we don’t
want to underestimate the utility of the
technology right because we have this
long-form technology now and it’s
enabling us to have this discussion and
so we can get deeper into things
publicly and socially then we were able
to before and I see this I see this as a
manifestation of that and and as and I’m
hoping too that maybe maybe what’s
happening because we’re gonna have a lot
of adaptation to do in the next 20 years
as things change so rapidly we can
hardly comprehend it and hopefully the
way we’re going to be able to manage
that is to think and hopefully these
long form discussions will provide the
political or provide the public forum
for us to actually think to actually
engage at a deep enough level so we’ll
be able to master the transformations
and I think that’s possible and him
part of the reason that I wrote this
book and well part of the reason that
I’d be doing what I’ve been doing for
84:24
the last thirty years because I really
have believed since nineteen eighty five
something like that that the way out of
political polarization the way out of
the excesses of the right and the left
is through the individual I think the
West got that right the fundamental unit
of measurement is the individual and the
fundamental task of the individual is to
engage in this process of humble
self-improvement I believe that’s the
case and that’s where the meaning is and
that’s where the responsibility is and I
think and I’m hoping that if enough
people in the West and then and then the
rest of the world for that matter but
we’re very polarized in the West right
now if enough people take responsibility
for getting their individual life’s
together then we’ll get wise enough so
we won’t let this process of political
polarization put us back to the same
places that we went so many times in the
20th century I don’t see another
antidote for it it’s not political it’s
ethical this is the message that I
always hear from you and this is you as
a friend this is the you that I
understand but this is not how you’re
commonly represented you are the most
misrepresented person I’ve ever met in
my life
I have never seen someone who has so
much positive that gets ignored and
where people are looking for any little
thing that they could possibly
misrepresent and switch up and change
and I’m kind of stunned by it I mean I
I’m really not sure what it is about you
that’s so polarizing with all these
different people that are deciding that
85:58
you are some sexist transphobic evil
86:04
person that’s this right-wing
86:06
all right the figure you know even to
86:11
the point where it’s it’s it’s kind of
86:14
humorous to me sometimes when I read
86:16
some of these these takes on you what do
86:20
you think that’s from like what what is
86:22
have you this is a new thing for you
86:25
you mean this only been the last few
86:27
years that you’ve gone from this
86:29
relatively unknown professor in a
86:33
university into
86:33
Anto to being this worldwide figure
86:36
where people you’re obviously your
86:39
message is resonating with people in a
very huge way but the people that are
opposing you they’re vehemently opposed
what do you think that is collectivist
don’t like me collectivists what do you
mean by that
people who think the probably proper
unit of analysis in the world is a
political and B group oriented the
identity politics types don’t like me at
all and they have every reason not to
because I’m not I’m not a fan of
identity politics
I think things that’s why you’re
misrepresented but mentally there’s
other reasons I mean I came out against
this bill in Canada bill C 16 that that
hypothetically purported to do nothing
else but to increase the the domain of
Rights that were applied to transsexual
people but there was a there was plenty
more to that bill man let me tell you
and I read the policy dot the policies
that went along with it and it was a
compelled speech bill and so I opposed
it on the grounds that the politicians
87:36
are not supposed to leap out of their
87:37
proper domain and start to compel speech
87:40
it’s not the same as forbidding hate
87:42
speech I’m I think hate speech should be
87:44
left alone personally for all sorts of
87:46
reasons but to compel the contents of
87:48
speech is a whole new thing it’s never
87:51
been done before in the history of
87:52
British common law English common law
87:53
and it’s actually the Supreme Court in
87:56
the 1940s in the u.s. said that that was
87:58
not to be allowed and so it was a major
88:00
transgression and they said well we’re
88:02
doing it for all the right reasons it’s
88:03
like no no you don’t get it
88:05
you don’t get to compel speech I don’t
88:07
care what your reasons are and why
88:09
should I trust your damn reasons anyways
88:11
what makes you so st. like so that you
88:14
can violate this fundamental principle
88:15
and I should assume that you’re doing it
88:17
for nothing but compassion and that
88:18
you’re wise enough to manage that
88:19
properly it’s like sorry no I read your
88:22
policies I see what you’re up to I don’t
88:24
like the collectivists I think they’re
88:26
unbelievably dangerous and I have reason
88:28
to believe that so I think that when
88:31
push comes to shove if your unit of
88:35
analysis is the group and your worldview
88:37
is one group and its power claims
88:39
against all other groups that that
88:41
that’s not acceptable it’s it’s
88:43
tribalism of the worst form and it lead
88:45
to nothing but mayhem and desire
88:47
and part of the reason you’re doing it
88:48
isn’t because your compassion it’s
88:50
because you’re envious and you don’t
88:51
want to take responsibility for your own
88:52
life and I’m calling you on it and so
88:55
you don’t like me so I must be an
88:56
alright figure I must be a Nazi saying
88:59
your house needs a lot of work man
89:01
there’s a lot of rot in the in the
89:03
floorboards
89:04
the plumbing is leaking the water’s
89:05
coming in you’re not you’re not the sage
89:07
and Saint you think you are there’s so
89:10
much work you have to do on yourself
89:11
that it would damn near kill you to take
89:13
a look at it do everything you honestly
89:15
think that that’s why people are
89:16
responding to you in a negative way that
89:18
they only have their own personal
89:20
problems that they’re avoiding it can’t
89:22
possibly be that you represent to them
89:24
something that is either cruel or
89:30
something that is not compassionate
89:33
about people and their differences and
89:35
their flaws and their their humanity
89:38
because I think it’s certainly the case
89:40
that there the vision that’s been
89:42
generated of me is yeah that’s but
89:44
that’s what I’m getting at oh yeah
89:46
there’s that too but why is layers say
89:48
theirs well part of its the political
89:51
polarization you know at the moment
89:52
we’re viewing almost everything that
89:54
happens in the world through a political
89:56
lens at least the journalists at least
89:58
first of all first of all I gotta make
90:01
this clear
conditions oh no we can’t do that it’s
134:32
like the discussion you guys wanted why
do you continue and agree to have these
conversations that are gonna be edited
oh well that’s a good question the Jim
Jefferies one was another one yeah Jim’s
134:43
a friend of mine but I mean he gave you
134:45
a good question and you actually gave a
134:46
good answer you said actually I’m
134:49
probably wrong about yeah yeah and you
134:50
were talking about whether or not gay
134:52
people should whether someone should be
134:55
forced to bake a cake for cake for gay
134:57
people yeah I said forced to probably
134:59
not they said well what if they don’t
135:00
want to get baked a cake for black
135:02
people yeah and he said well actually
135:05
probably it probably should be forced to
135:07
yeah well probably wrong yeah well I was
135:09
probably wrong in everything I did and
135:11
that in that part of the discussion
135:12
because I hadn’t thought that issue
135:15
through enough to actually give a good
135:16
answer he didn’t expect that issue
135:18
because this is not something you talk
135:19
about commonly no and it’s it’s actually
135:21
complicated right I mean obviously the
135:23
whole I won’t serve you because you’re
135:25
black thing is not good but then again
135:27
you have you also have the right to
135:29
choose who you’re going to affiliate
135:30
with but
135:31
that’s complicated because it’s a
135:32
commercial circumstance and then if
135:33
you’re making a cake is that the same as
135:35
serving or is that compelled speech it’s
135:37
like oh my god these are border cases
135:40
that cause a lot of controversy I don’t
135:42
mean serving black people obviously
135:43
that’s not a border case but these cases
135:45
that caused a lot of controversy is
135:47
where two principles are at odds and it
135:49
isn’t exactly clear where to draw the
135:50
line and I’m not happy with you know I’m
135:53
not happy with my answer to that but I
135:55
hadn’t spent that like week it would
135:57
take to think through the issue and
135:59
really have a comprehensive perspective
136:00
you didn’t expect that to be a subject
136:02
anyway no no what how long did you talk
136:05
to Jim for oh I think about 45 minutes
136:08
maybe an hour first Oh two minutes yeah
136:11
well my daughter has told me and and my
136:14
wife as well my son as well and these
136:16
discussions we’ve been thinking about
136:18
how to handle the media which is a very
complicated question and one hypothesis
being don’t do interviews that will be
edited and I’ve thought about that and
and and and being thinking about it and
that might be the right answer it might
be the right answer going fooling it is
right and well it could it could easily
be although it’s the only way you can’t
be misrepresented just all the problems
that I’ve seen with you all of them come
from you being edited yes I mean there’s
complex subjects that people would
disagree with you on but when you look
at complete mischaracterizations of your
point
these have been established because of
editing yes well I guess the only
counter-argument is this and I mean a
lot of these a lot of these
opportunities come I’ve had
opportunities that are coming at me a
rate at a rate that doesn’t allow me to
think them through as much as I could
optimally but but then there’s another
thing which is it isn’t necessarily a
mistake to lay yourself open to attack
because sometimes it reveals the motives
of the attackers like that’s what
happened in the Kathy Newman interview
no that could have gone really sideways
like I was lucky there to some degree
because she interviewed me for 40
minutes or whatever and something like
that and then they did chop it down to
seven minutes or three minutes and it
was exactly what you’d expect and that
is what I expected after
away from the interview I thought oh my
god they’re just gonna chop this into
reprehensible segments and pillory me
but I walked away from it because there
was 50 other things to do but then it
was so funny because they did do that
and then they put up the whole interview
and the reason they put up the whole
interview was because they thought the
interview went fine it isn’t that they
knew that that was gonna cause commotion
not at all not a bit
he
141:23
journalists I’m certainly not taking
141:24
anywhere near the number of
141:26
opportunities that I have in front of me
141:27
right we are trying to be very careful
in picking and choosing but that doesn’t
always go well and it’s like it could be
that it could be that I shouldn’t do
anything that is edited at all that’s
certainly possible so well this is the
problem you speak in these you speak in
these long-form podcasts and interviews
and you get a chance to extrapolate and
unpack some pretty complicated issues
and compare them to other complicated
issues and try to find meaning and
middle ground and and try to try to
illuminate certain positions when you
expose yourself to editing you you
expose yourself to someone
idea of what the narrative should be and
how to frame your positions in it in and
dishonest way yeah and you’re seeing it
time and time again when it exposes the
142:23
problem with medium look I went to the
142:25
Aspen ideas festival last week which is
142:27
a whole story in and of itself but I was
142:29
interviewed there by a journalist from
142:31
the Atlantic Monthly and it was a
142:33
relatively long form interview I think
142:35
we talked for 40 minutes something like
142:37
that and it’s going to be edited
142:39
now I trusted her I trust her now
142:42
whether that’ll be well how that will
142:44
play out in the final edit I don’t know
142:46
because she won’t be the only one making
142:48
the decision right well the question is
142:50
should have I done it well look it was
142:53
the Aspen ideas festival it’s a
142:54
different audience it’s left-leaning
I thought well maybe I’ll go talk to a
left-leaning audience people are always
criticizing me for not doing that I
usually don’t do it because I don’t get
invited but so I went and talked to them
it’s like and Barry Weiss interviewed me
in front of the Aspen ideas festival and
that was long-form uncut and put on the
web and so maybe that was useful the
Atlantic thing well it might be good
we’ll see it does expose me to the risk
though because it’ll be edited so and it
was it wise to do it
look I’ve been fortunate so far despite
the fact that I’ve been taken out of
context at times and fairly significant
proportion of times but not the
overwhelming majority of times the net
consequence of all of that has been to
143:46
engage more and more people in a complex
143:48
dialogue as far as I can tell so that’s
143:51
the good that’s the good it doesn’t mean
143:54
the strategy that I’ve implemented so
143:56
far is the only strategy that will work
143:58
into the future we can also clearly
144:00
establish it you didn’t planning this to
144:02
happen this this whole thing that
144:04
happened from you opposing that bill and
144:07
then going to where you are how many
you
148:11
know what you’re talking about so you
148:13
take the listeners on a journey right
148:15
it’s an exploratory journey but
148:17
fundamentally what’s propelled you to
148:19
superstardom in some sense is not just
your ability which is non-trivial but
the fact that you’re on this giant
technological wave and you’re one of the
first adopters and I’m in the same
situation we’re first adopters of a
technology that’s as revolutionary as
the Gutenberg printing press and so
that’s all unfolding in real time it’s
like look at what’s happening yeah well
the spoken word is now as powerful as
the written word that’s never happened
before in human history and we’re on the
cutting edge of that for better or worse
that’s a very good way to put it the
spoken word is just power yeah and maybe
even more so why is it so accessible to
people that don’t have the time to read
well or stuck in traffic you know or or
and here’s another possibility maybe ten
times as many people can listen to
complex information as can read complex
information in terms of their ability to
process it sure could easily we don’t
know maybe it’s maybe it’s the same it’s
certainly easier to listen to a book on
tape for me than it is to read a book
yeah well so for us so the question is
for how many people is that true and I
would say it might be true for them for
the majority of people and then people
are doing hybrids you know so because
you can sync your book with audible
right so they’ll read when they have the
time but then when they have found time
which is also a major component of this
that that’s the time when you’re driving
or the time when you’re doing dishes is
now all of a sudden you can educate
yourself during that found time this is
149:40
a big revolution and the band blowing
149:43
out the bandwidth makes a huge
149:44
difference because while we talked about
149:46
that at the beginning looks like people
149:48
are more intelligent than we thought and
149:49
you and I are both and the rest of this
149:51
intellectual dark web that’s kind of
149:53
what unites us say is everybody has an
149:55
independent platform virtually everybody
149:57
they have an idiosyncratic viewpoint
150:00
they’re interested in having discussions
150:02
and pursuing for the furtherance of
150:04
their knowledge even though they might
150:05
have a priori ideological commit
150:07
Sam doesn’t I suppose I do and and Ben
150:09
Shapiro certainly does but they’re still
150:11
interested in having the discussion but
150:14
more importantly they’re capitalizing on
150:16
the long form and and the fact that
150:18
that’s possible is a reflection of this
150:19
technological transformation and the
150:21
technological transfer information might
150:23
be utterly profound it looks like it and
150:27
so that’s you know I’ve been trying to
150:29
sort this out because I keep thinking
150:30
why the hell are these people coming to
150:32
listen to what I’m saying it’s like well

150:33

I’m a guru you know I’m a sage it’s
150:35
something like that it’s like don’t be
150:37
thinking that first think if there’s
150:41
situational determinants first take your
150:43
damn personality out of it okay what’s
150:45
going on oh yes this is all fostered by
150:48
YouTube and fostered by podcasts what’s
150:50
so new about that
150:52
no bandwidth restrictions no barrier to
150:55
entrance possibility of dialog because
150:58
people cut up the YouTube videos into
151:00
chunks and make their own comments on it
151:02
it’s a whole new communication
151:03
technology also a lack of interference
151:06
by executives and producers and all
151:08
these different people that have their
151:09
own bodies unmediated yes unmediated is
151:11
giant yeah yeah well that’s all part of
151:13
the reason you’re so popular too is like
151:15
you just put this on like so you’ve got
151:17
exactly the right balance of competent
151:21
production because there’s nothing
151:23
excess about it like it’s competent but
151:26
no more than that I know that’s by
151:28
design but you also don’t edit it it’s
151:30
like what you see is what you get it’s
151:31
like everyone’s relieved by that we can
151:33
make our own damn decisions no I think
151:35
that’s very important if you’re gonna
151:36
have a conversation with someone that’s
151:38
honest you you can’t decide what to
151:40
leave in and what to take out and it’s
151:43
just well that’s partly also why I deal
151:45
with the press the way I do yeah if I’m
151:47
gonna have a full conversation it’s like
151:48
I’m willing to take the hits yeah and
151:50
and I understand what you’re saying but
151:52
that’s one of the reasons why it
frustrates me so much is that I see what
they’re doing and I’m like what you’re
doing is ancient what you’re doing is
it’s it’s this is what people did twenty
years ago thirty years ago for you can’t
152:03
really do that anymore
152:04
you can’t misrepresent people you used
152:06
to be able to if you were in the press
152:07
you could take people quote amount of
152:09
context do whatever the fuck you wanted
152:11
put an article about them they couldn’t
152:12
do a goddamn thing about it it happened
152:14
to me in nineteen
it was like ninety-nine
I did a I had a comedy CD that came out
and this woman wrote an article about it
and it just she just lied she lied about
my perspective she lied about the bits
she misquoted the bits she didn’t just
paraphrase them
she changed what the bits were to make
them you know misogynist or hateful or
whatever it was and in doing so I that
there was no recourse there was nothing
that I could do about them like wow I’d
never experienced that before I was like
this is stunning and then I found out
this person did that a lot and this is
what she did and there’s ultimate power
that comes at being the person who has
the pen being the person who has the
typewriter and you you’re the person who
works for you know the Boston Globe or
whatever the publication is that that is
something that existed forever you know
and that you had to be either a friend
of the press you had to play ball you
had you had a bend to their will you to
do what they wanted you to do and they
could misrepresent you and choose to
paint you in any way they like and it’s
one of the reasons why I don’t do
anything anymore
I don’t do any interviews anymore I
don’t do anything I don’t want to do
anything yeah this I do enough man you
153:28
want to know about me it fucking there’s
153:29
a thousand podcasts there’s more than a
153:32
thousand there’s I think there’s there’s
153:35
1,100 and there’s a bunch of other ones
153:37
three right let’s just it doesn’t make
153:38
any sense
153:39
yeah well that that’s that that it may
153:41
also be the position that I increasingly
153:43
find myself in I think it’s the right
153:45
position because then the
153:47
misrepresentations don’t exist anymore
153:48
so then the only problem is the dispute
153:50
over the actual ideological
153:52
conversations or the other the actual
153:55
concept but you know the thing is you
153:57
know you made a point there that’s quite
153:58
interesting it’s like we are in a new
154:00
media landscape so now if someone comes
154:02
out as a as a media figure with some
154:06
institutional credibility and
154:09
misrepresents its exposed and so then
154:12
the question is how much risk should use
154:14
shoulder to expose the proclivity for
154:16
media misrepresentation and the answer
154:19
to that might be some now it might be
154:22
moving you know maybe I’ve done enough
154:23
of that I mean it would be easier for me
154:26
in many ways if I just stopped doing it
154:28
but but there’s some utility and having
154:31
it play out and so
154:33
well so I’m trying to get I’m trying to
154:36
only take those opportunities that
154:38
appear to have more benefit than risk
154:41
and when I defining benefit
154:44
well the question is then what
154:46
constitutes benefit and I guess what
154:48
constitutes benefit is well that would
154:52
further the attempts that I’m making to
154:55
bring information to a vast number of
154:57
people that could conceivably help them
154:59
stabilize and improve their individual
155:02
lives that’s worth a certain amount of
155:03
risk
155:04
well it certainly increases your profile
155:06
increases your profile and even if you
155:08
know you have 60% of these people are
155:10
gonna get a bad perception of you 40% of
155:12
these people that never heard of you now
155:14
we’re going to understand who you are
155:15
because they do further investigation
155:16
yeah so there’s some benefit in that but
155:18
the negative I mean I get text messages
155:21
from random people that I was friends
155:22
with years ago let’s say this Jordan
155:24
Peterson is just such a lying sack of
155:26
shit and he’s this not only I don’t even
155:28
know who the fuck you are and then
155:30
second of all like why are you
155:31
contacting me you know I’m saying hi
155:33
you’re saying he’s a scam artist he’s a
155:40
fraud he’s in it and I’m like wow and so
155:43
they’ll see an interview you know like
155:45
the the Jim Jefferies clip which is a
155:47
minute long or whatever it is or the
155:49
Vice piece or the the initial Kathy
155:52
Newman piece and they just form this
155:55
determined position on you and then Reid
155:58
hit pieces on you and then this is where
156:01
they take their opinion this is where
156:03
it’s from it’s and it’s like these are
the last gasps of a dying medium I
really do I just I think too I don’t I
don’t think that people appreciate it I
think the people that are listening to
this that do appreciate long-form
conversations and with all warts and all
all the ugliness and the mistakes and
the critical errors and the the people
that appreciate that they they they have
156:29
a real hate for being lied to you know
156:32
because it’s it it changed when when you
156:35
try never being treated as if they’re
156:37
stupid yes
156:38
yeah which they aren’t yeah that’s both
156:41
it’s just it’s it’s deceptive when you
156:44
when you added someone and take their
156:47
words
to context and change them around you’re
being deceptive the New York Times did
that again this week they had some
philosophy professor from Hong Kong
University write a piece on me and he
took they quoted me it was a sentence
there’s like the first phrase was in
quotes and then there was some joining
words and then the second phrase was in
quotes and there was some joining words
and then the third phrase was in quotes
and the three quotes added up to a
statement that bore no resemblance
whatsoever to what I was saying how can
they do that in the New York Times that
seems to me to be something that should
be the the I don’t but they still I
don’t think they can do I think they’re
killing their brand so fast that they
can’t but it is so disturbing to me as a
157:24
person who’s been a fan of the New York
157:26
Times forever I just don’t understand
157:28
how they could allow that to happen how
157:30
could you allow your what what is the
157:33
gold standard for journalism how could
157:36
you allow it to become something that
157:37
willfully misrepresents someone they
157:39
never did to push an idea I never did
157:41
put my book on the New York Times
157:43
bestseller list it’s quite comical how’s
157:45
that possible oh they have rules which
157:48
they don’t disclose but one of them
157:50
apparently is well if the book is
157:51
published and counted and distributed in
157:53
the United States then it doesn’t count
157:54
even though they’ve had books like that
157:56
on the New York Times bestseller list
157:57
before and I think okay well is this bad
158:00
or good it’s like well it’s bad because
158:02
to the degree that I might want to be on
158:04
the New York Times bestseller list
158:05
although I haven’t been losing any sleep
158:07
over but you’re selling I know how many
158:09
books are selling yeah it’s basically
158:10
being the best-selling book in the world
158:12
since January you know it’s gone up and
158:14
down to some degree but right it should
158:16
be the number one New York Times
158:18
bestseller so they they they have the
158:20
reasons and but I look at that and I
158:22
think oh well you can only do that ten
158:24
times until you’re done like because
158:27
it’s a fatal error
158:27
you have the gold standard for
158:29
measurement you’re not measuring
158:31
properly you’re burning up your brand
158:34
you think well we’re the New York Times
158:35
so we can burn up our brand it’s like no
158:38
you can’t Newsweek is gone Time magazine
158:40
is a shallow is a shell of its former
158:42
self like the big things disappear and
158:46
they disappear when they get crooked and
158:48
ideologically rigid and so that’s what’s
158:51
happening at the New York Times not with
158:53
everyone there but with plenty of them
158:55
and they’ll die faster than people think
158:58
but it’s so confusing to me that
159:00
it didn’t used to be that yeah and now
159:04
it is and are they just responding to
159:06
this new world where you have to have
159:08
clickbait journalism and you know some
159:11
people are struggling to find people to
159:12
actually buy physical newspapers which
159:14
is well it’s a different thing it’s hard
159:16
to say like because maybe see it’s weird
159:18
because you don’t have to resort to
159:20
clickbait because these long-form
159:23
discussions are the antithesis of
159:24
clickbait right are they struggling in
159:27
terms of like how many people buy them
159:29
safer oh absolutely every newspaper the
159:32
newspapers in Canada went cap and hand
159:34
to the federal government for subsidies
159:36
about six months ago because they’re
159:37
dying so fast and so some of it is
159:40
they’re being supplanted by technology
159:42
that’s a huge part of it but as they are
159:44
supplanted they get more desperate they
159:46
publish more polarizing stories that
159:48
works in the short term to garner more
159:50
views but it alienates people from the
159:52
brand and speeds their demise classic
159:54
death spiral of a big of a big
159:56
organization and that’s going to clean
159:59
things out like mad I mean I don’t know
160:00
where CNN is in the Cable News rankings
160:03
now our cable show rankings but it keeps
160:04
falling but it’s falling in the rankings
160:07
as cable itself disintegrates and dies
160:09
why do you need cable TV right
160:12
no one needs cable TV the only people
160:14
who have cable TV are the people who
160:16
haven’t figured out yet that you can
160:18
replace it entirely online for like 1/10
160:20
the price with with much less hassle but
160:22
the art is people want a location they
160:25
can go to to find out what’s going on in
160:26
the world and this is the one thing that
160:28
they used to represent and you know I
160:31
mean I don’t think Fox News is any
160:33
better I think you just have these
160:34
ideological extremes left and right and
160:37
I remember very clearly watching the
160:39
election coverage before the election
160:42
like we were leading up to the election
160:44
I would go Fox News and then I go CNN I
160:46
just would go back and forth with them
160:48
on my cable yeah and I would just be
160:49
laughing I’m like what is really
160:51
happening in the world because I’m
160:53
getting to different stories I’m getting
160:55
Russia and I’m getting Hillary’s emails
160:56
this is I don’t know what the fuck is
160:58
what what is happening I’m getting pussy
161:00
grabbing and I’m getting you know
161:03
Benghazi yeah you know I’m this is what
161:05
I’m getting and I don’t understand like
161:06
why this is obviously ideological this
161:10
is well not just look it might be that
161:11
as the technology is supplanted
161:14
the ideological polarization increases
161:17
as the thing dies right there struggling
161:19
for anyone to pay attention and this is
161:21
the way they have to do it to any shore
161:23
and I think what’s happening on the
161:24
other side which is the side you occupy
161:27
say is that a new technology that’s long
161:29
form that deals with many of those
161:32
problems is emerging and it’s going to
161:33
emerge it’s going to be victorious
161:35
but in the me might already be
161:37
victorious in the meantime little baby
161:39
stuff still exists in the digital world
161:42
yeah you know and then you’re getting a
161:43
lot of the articles that are written
161:45
about you people are absorbing these
161:46
articles not from a physical form you’re
161:48
getting it from from digital yeah well
161:50
okay so then the sense is well do you
161:52
have fundamental trust in the judgment
161:54
of your fellow man let’s say and my
161:57
answer to that is yes because although
161:59
I’ve been pilloried to a great degree by
162:02
the radical types in the commentariat
162:05
and in that classic journalists though
162:09
comments with regards to me on YouTube
162:11
are 50 to 1 in my favor and and that’s
162:15
even the case when the ideologues put up
162:16
videos about me they’re designed to
162:18
discredit me and I’ve sold a million and
162:21
a half books it’s going to be published
162:23
in 40 countries and thousands of people
162:25
are coming to my lectures and so I would
162:27
say the attempts to discredit me aren’t
162:30
working so and now I think that’s
162:34
because that even like even if you go to
162:35
youtube you can see Jordan Peterson
162:38
smashes leftist journalists you know as
162:40
a clickbait thing someone’s taken a
162:41
two-minute clip from a video and they
162:43
put it out and they’re using that
162:44
clickbait headlines to attract attention
162:46
it’s like it does attract attention and
162:48
that probably even furthers polarization
162:50
but I think that most people enough
162:53
people that’s the prayer enough people
162:56
are going for the long form thorough
162:58
discussion so that the sensible will
163:02
will triumph that’s what I’m hoping for
163:05
the sensible will triumph no I agree and
163:07
I think that is what’s happened yeah I
163:09
think that’s why this fifty to one
163:10
number exists is that there but the the
163:13
number one in that 50 the 50 verses you
163:17
know the 50 people that are actually
163:18
understanding what’s going on and
163:20
agreeing with you versus the number one
163:22
that are trying to willfully
163:24
misrepresent you they still exist and
163:25
they’re loud you know they’re and
163:27
they’re
163:27
to be right and this is one of the
163:29
things that people love to do they love
163:31
to fight to be right instead of
163:33
examining their position and wondering
163:34
whether or not they are taking you out
163:36
of context and misrepresenting your
163:38
positions to the world willfully and
163:40
doing so in order to paint a negative
163:43
picture of you that does not accurately
163:45
represent who you are what you stand for
163:47
yes but by doing this virtue without any
163:50
of the work they’re also destroying
163:52
their own credits this is what’s
163:54
devastating it’s like the in they’re
163:55
trying to win they’re killing themselves
163:58
right well and that’s a good that’s a
164:00
good motif for the entire conversation
164:03
it’s like try hard to hard to win you
164:06
kill yourself you were talking last
164:07
night when we were when we were over
164:08
dinner you said that one of the most
164:10
deadly things for a fighter to do is to
164:11
overestimate his own position you’re
164:14
gonna get your abilities yes if you
164:17
overestimate your abilities you you’re
164:18
you’re in deep deep trouble because
164:20
you’re gonna get a wake-up call right
164:22
and objectivity is one of the most
164:24
critical aspects of development you have
164:26
to be you have to be objectively
164:28
assessing your strengths and weaknesses
164:30
at every step of the way that’s brava
164:33
bravado right I’m I’m trying to prove
164:35
how I’m so powerful I’m so powerful it’s
164:37
an ego shield and that’s why I was
164:39
saying that the ego is the enemy were
164:40
talking about right so I get you know I
164:42
want to get into this because this is a
164:44
I think this is a fascinating thing with
164:47
you personally that your diet you’re on
164:51
this carnivore dog yeah no okay so I
164:53
want to preface that with something I am
164:55
NOT a dietary expert so I’m not speaking
164:58
as an uninformed citizen yes well this
165:01
is anecdotal evidence from a human being
165:03
it is dealt with autoimmune issues yes
165:05
their whole life yes you have done this
165:08
for how long now I’ve been on a pure
165:10
carnivore diet for about two months and
165:13
a pretty very very low carb greens only
165:16
modified carnivore diet for about a year
165:20
so in the year and-and-and-and a
165:22
low-carb diet for two years so from the
165:25
time that I’ve known you I’ve known you
165:26
for what two and a half years now
165:27
sometimes yeah yeah when I first met you
165:29
you had much more weight on your body
165:31
yeah you look different yeah and you
165:34
were back then you were eating like the
165:36
standard diet right like normal people
165:38
yes pasta
165:40
bread yeah chicken whatever yes right
165:42
you shifted over to only meat and greens
165:46
I saw you and like you look fantastic
165:48
I’m like what are you doing
165:50
you’re like I changed my diet I only
165:51
meat in green so I was like wow that’s
165:53
fascinating well I felt like okay what
165:56
you’re doing is cutting out refined
165:57
sugars and all these different things
165:59
that are problematic preservatives all
166:01
the bullshit processed foods and you’re
166:04
having this extreme health benefit I was
166:05
like wow that’s really excellent you’re
166:07
showing great discipline then you
166:10
decided to take it to another place and
166:11
cut out the greens you know what was the
166:13
motivation for cutting out the greens
166:15
well all of the motivation for this has
166:17
been my experience with my daughter
166:19
because she has an unbelievably serious
166:21
autoimmune disease I just talked to her
166:22
this what is it called
166:23
well it’s rich arthritis but it there’s
166:26
there’s way more to it than that
166:28
but the arthritis was the major set of
166:30
symptoms she had 40 affected joints and
166:32
she had to have her hip replaced and her
166:34
ankle replaced when she was 15 and 16
166:36
and so she basically hobbled around on
166:38
two broken legs for two years in extreme
166:41
agony and that was just a tiny fraction
166:42
of the whole set of problems I just
166:45
talked to her this morning she’s in
166:47
Chicago looks like she has to have her
166:48
ankle replacement replaced so that’s
166:51
next on the horizon but but apart from
166:54
that she is doing so well now it is
166:55
absolutely beyond comprehension so she’s
166:59
she’s she’s very trim she had a baby but
167:02
she’s very trimmed she’s down to about
167:03
118 pounds she’s about five foot six
167:06
she’s just glowing with health all of
167:09
her autoimmune system symptoms are gone
167:11
all of them and she was also seriously
167:13
depressed like severely depressed way
167:16
worse than you think she couldn’t stay
167:17
awake for more than about six hours
167:19
without taking Ritalin
167:21
and she was dying and hide a cousin my
167:23
cousin’s daughter she died when she was
167:26
thirty from an associated autoimmune
167:28
condition so there’s a fair bit of this
167:30
in our family it was bloody bleak I’ll
167:32
tell you and my wife always had a
167:34
suspicion that this was dietary related
167:37
you know and well we did notice that
167:41
when Michaela was young if she ate
167:43
oranges or strawberries that she’d get a
167:46
rash like there were there were there
167:47
and then when she developed arthritis if
167:50
she ate oranges in particular that would
167:51
definitely cause a flare it was the only
167:53
thing we could see
167:54
the problem is is that in order to
167:56
identify a dietary component the
167:58
response has to be pretty quick after
167:59
you eat the thing like if it’s two days
168:01
later how the hell are you gonna figure
168:02
that out a lot of these responses appear
168:04
to be delayed for four days and last a
168:07
month so good luck figuring that out
168:10
anyways Mikayla noticed about three
168:12
years ago no more than that now five
168:13
years ago she was at Concordia
168:15
University and struggling with her with
168:18
her illness and and all the Association
168:20
associated problems she noticed that
168:22
around exam time she was starting to
168:24
develop real skin problems and my
168:27
cousin’s daughter who I mentioned had
168:29
really bad skin problems and wounds that
168:31
wouldn’t heal and that was partly part
168:32
of the process that eventually killed
168:34
her and she thought oh it must be stress
168:36
and then she thought wait a second I
168:38
really changed my diet when I’m studying
168:40
all I do is eat bagels all I do is eat
168:42
bread sandwiches she thought maybe it’s
168:44
the bread so she cut out gluten first
168:47
and it had a remarkable effect like a
168:50
really remarkable effect and then she
168:53
went on a radical elimination diet all
168:55
the way down to nothing but chicken and
168:57
broccoli and then her symptoms started
168:59
to drop off one by one like and and like
169:02
one of the things that happened is she
169:03
started to wake up in the morning she
169:04
started to be able to stay awake all day
169:06
when you’re only staying awake for six
169:07
hours with riddlin staying awake all day
169:09
that’s like having a life and so a whole
169:12
bunch of things improved then her
169:14
depression went away and I’ve had
169:17
depression since I was 13 probably and
169:19
very severe and I’ve treated at a
169:21
variety of ways some of them quite
169:22
successfully but it’s been a constant
169:24
battle and my father had it and his
169:26
father had it and it’s all just rife in
169:28
my family and my wife has autoimmune
169:31
problems and her niece a depression
169:32
define it oh oh would you define it
169:36
because that’s a word that’s a blanket
169:38
term yeah
169:38
well imagine imagine that you wake up
169:40
and that you remember that all your
169:42
family was killed in a horrible accident
169:43
yesterday you would feel that even
169:45
though the times wrong yes yes
169:47
just-just-just worse than that because
169:50
well one of the things Mikayla told me
169:52
was she thought well what’s it like to
169:53
be depressed
169:54
imagine you have a dog and you really
169:55
loved the dog and then the dog dies and
169:57
then about three years ago our dog died
170:00
and that was Mikayla’s dog and she
170:02
really liked that dog and she said that
170:05
was bad but it’s nowhere near as bad as
170:06
being depressed
170:08
and I asked her to at one point when she
170:09
was about 15 or 16 I said look you’ve
170:12
got a choice kid here’s the choice you
170:14
can either have depression or arthritis
170:16
which one I’ll take the arthritis
170:21
after she’d lost two joints so it was no
170:26
joke it’s no joke man it there isn’t any
170:28
no I wouldn’t say that I wouldn’t say
170:31
there’s nothing worse because worse is a
170:33
very deep hole right but it’s bad yeah
170:35
people prove you wrong right oh yes
170:37
definitely worse worse is a deep hole
170:39
anyways her depression went away all
170:41
these symptoms went away and like
170:43
radically so what changed her from
170:45
chicken and broccoli to carnivore well
170:47
she she kept experimenting and she got
170:51
very sensitive to all sorts of foods in
170:53
the aftermath of that too so this is why
170:55
I wouldn’t recommend that anybody does
170:56
this casually because we don’t
170:57
understand much about it but the upshot
170:59
was that well she kept she kept she kept
171:02
experimenting and she started to add
171:04
things back and take them away and
171:06
sometimes when she added things the
171:07
results were devastating she was like
171:09
done for a month she eats the wrong
171:10
thing done for a month all the symptoms
171:13
came back the depression came back she
171:15
thought that her whole dietary theory
171:16
was wrong because it lasted so long it
171:18
was so extreme and it’s like I took her
171:20
two years to figure out that really what
171:22
she could eat was beef and greens and
171:24
then she figured out that she could only
171:25
eat beef so greens themselves well look
171:29
so what happened okay so two years ago
171:32
she said dad you have tried this diet
171:33
because you have a lot of the same
171:34
symptoms as me now I didn’t have
171:36
arthritis but I had a lot of the other
171:38
symptoms and I thought oh Christ
171:41
okay Mikayla I can try anything for a
171:43
month she said try it for a month I
171:44
thought okay whatever I can hang by my
171:46
fingernails from the windowsill for a
171:48
month it’s like it’s just not that big a
171:50
deal
171:50
and so I eliminated I went on really low
171:54
carb diet okay so this is what happened
171:56
I had gastric reflux disorder and I was
172:00
snoring quite a lot I stopped snoring
172:03
the first week I thought what the hell
172:05
that’s supposed to be associated with
172:07
weight loss because I had gained some
172:09
weight I weighed about 212 pounds and
172:11
I’m I what six one and a half so that
172:12
was my maximum weight I stopped snoring
172:15
which was a great relief to tear me so
172:17
that just quit and that’s a big deal
172:18
right because if you snore you have
172:19
sleep apnea and then you don’t sleep
172:20
right it’s like not a good thing okay
172:22
next I started waking up in the mornings
172:25
I’d never been able to wake up in the
172:27
mornings my whole life I always had to
172:29
stumble to the shower and then maybe I
172:31
could wake up took me an hour and I felt
172:33
terrible and so
172:34
all the sudden I woke up it was like oh
172:36
look at that I’m awake in the morning
172:38
and I’m clear-headed and things aren’t
172:40
gloomy and horrible it’s like well he’s
172:42
not weird then I lost seven pounds the
172:44
first month I thought seven pounds
172:47
that’s a lot in a month and I’d already
172:48
gone for a whole year on a sugar-free
172:50
diet I didn’t lose any weight and I’d be
172:52
the exercise a sugar free but did you
172:53
cut out bread no no it was just no
172:55
desserts no sugar no and I thought that
172:57
might do it didn’t make any difference
172:58
at all seven pounds well then then I
173:02
lost seven pounds the next month then I
173:04
lost seven pounds the next month I lost
173:06
seven pounds every month for seven
173:07
months like I’d throw away all my
173:09
clothes I went back to the same weight
173:10
that I was when I was 26 and my
173:12
psoriasis disappeared and I had floaters
173:15
in my right eye and they cleared up and
173:17
then the last thing that went away from
173:20
me I was still having a bitch of a time
173:21
with mood regulation and that sucked
173:23
because when I changed my diet I didn’t
173:24
respond to antidepressants properly
173:26
anymore they weren’t working and so
173:28
although I was getting better physically
173:30
on a variety of ways like radical ways I
173:33
was really having a bitch of a time
173:35
regulating my mood and I was having
173:36
sporadic really negative reactions to
173:38
food when I ate something I shouldn’t so
173:40
that took about a year and half to clear
173:42
up and I was still really anxious in the
173:44
morning up to three months ago like
173:45
horribly and then it would get better
173:47
all day people said well you’re under a
173:48
lot of stress and I thought yeah yeah
173:50
I’ve been under a lot of stress for like
173:52
ten years it’s like it’s a lot but it
173:54
wasn’t any more stressful than helping
173:56
my daughter deal with her illness that’s
173:58
for sure that no this is something
173:59
different and she said to me quit eating
174:03
greens and I thought oh really
174:04
Jesus Mikayla I’m eating cucumbers
174:07
lettuce broccoli and chicken and beef
174:11
it’s like I have to cut out the goddamn
174:12
greens it’s like try it for a month okay
174:17
within a week I was 25% less anxious in
174:20
the morning within two weeks 75% and
174:23
I’ve been better every single day I’m
174:24
better now probably than I’ve ever been
174:26
in my life and I haven’t been taking
174:27
antidepressants for a whole year so I
174:30
don’t know what and I weigh 162 pounds
174:33
like I have no I’m and I’ve actually
174:36
gained musculature I’ve been doing some
174:38
working out but not a lot and so I can
174:42
sleep six hours a night no problem I
174:44
wake up the morning I’m awake if I take
174:45
a 15 minute nap that used to take me an
174:47
hour to recover for
174:48
that’s gone here’s the coolest thing
174:50
I’ve had gum disease since I was 25
174:53
that’s been serious enough to have I’ve
174:55
had to have minor surgical interventions
174:57
scraping and that sort of thing to keep
174:59
it at bay
174:59
it’s go on I checked with my dentist
175:02
before this last tour no inflammation
175:04
and that’s associated with heart disease
175:06
by the way gum inflammation and
175:08
gingivitis it’s a good risk factor heart
175:10
disease it means the systemic
175:11
inflammation is gone and it’s not
175:13
supposed to happen you’re not supposed
175:15
to recover from gingivitis and my gums
175:17
are in perfect shape it’s like what the
175:19
hell so here’s what happened I lost 50
175:21
pounds it’s like that’s a lot right I’m
175:26
nowhere near as hungry as I used to be
175:27
my appetites probably formed by 70% I
175:30
don’t get blood sugar dysregulation
175:32
problems I need way less sleep I get up
175:36
in the morning and I’m fine I’m not
175:38
anxious I’m not depressed I don’t have
175:39
psoriasis my legs were numb on the sides
175:42
that’s gone I’m certainly intellectually
175:47
at my best at the moment which is a
175:50
great relief especially doing this tour
175:51
depression is gone
175:54
I’m stronger I can swim better and my
176:01
gum disease is gone it’s like what the
176:03
hell and you’ve done you’ve done no
176:05
blood work so you don’t know what your
176:06
lipid lipid profile is or no I’ll get
176:09
that done again when I go back take any
176:10
vitamins no no I eat beef and salt and
176:13
water that’s it and I never cheat ever
176:17
not even a little bit no not soda no
176:19
wine I drink club soda well that’s still
176:23
water well you know when you’re down to
176:26
that level no it’s not Joe there’s
176:28
there’s club soda Joe’s really bubbly
176:31
there’s Perrier which is sort of bubbly
176:33
there’s flat water and there’s hot water
176:34
so that’s crazy well we ate last night
176:40
and I ate what you ate just we both had
176:43
that giant tomahawk yeah I had wine
176:46
though yeah
176:47
I’m curious about this I’m very curious
176:50
and I think you might try it but I eat a
176:53
lot of vegetables yeah but I don’t have
176:54
any problems like health problems hey
176:56
man like I’m not
176:58
disclaimer number two I am not
177:01
recommending this to anyone however I
177:03
have had however I have had many many
177:06
people come up to me on the tour and say
177:09
look I’ve been following your daughter’s
177:10
blog and I’ve lost like a hundred pounds
177:13
I think what you lost a hundred pounds
177:16
see I lost 100 pounds in six months I
177:17
talked to a woman yesterday she lost 15
177:19
pounds in one month she was 70 it’s like
177:22
this is all right here’s a question
177:25
why is everyone fat and stupid that’s a
177:29
question man because it’s new is there
177:32
something else it is it’s new and it’s
177:35
not a sedentary lifestyle that that
177:37
hypothesis doesn’t seem to hold water
177:39
there’s something wrong with the way
177:41
we’re eating and the what’s wrong is
177:43
that we’re eating way too many
177:44
carbohydrates I think but they’re never
177:46
on a no x8 shift the elimination of most
177:49
carbohydrates has made a big shift in my
177:51
life and I do cheat occasionally with
177:54
bread and occasionally with pasta I will
177:57
I will go off with ice cream and things
177:59
along those lines but most of the time
178:02
I’m just eating meat and vegetables most
178:05
of the time and then I have a cheat day
178:07
like you know once a week like yeah
178:09
especially if I go to dinner I’ll have a
178:11
little pasta and it doesn’t seem to mess
178:13
too bad but I do feel shitty after I do
178:16
it it’s like for simple mouth pleasure
178:18
I’m allowing myself to feel tired after
178:21
we’re tired yeah that’s a big one man
178:23
yeah but like I out yeah like well
178:26
really I can’t no and it’s so
178:29
interesting to like I can’t believe I
178:31
can wake up in the morning okay that’s
178:33
never happened to me in my whole life
178:35
and when I was a kid 13 12 I had a bitch
178:38
of a time waking up in the morning it
178:40
was just brutal I just thought that’s
178:42
how it was this is what I mean again I’m
178:44
not a nutritionist either but what’s
178:46
fascinating to me is I haven’t heard any
178:49
negative stories about people doing this
178:50
well I have a negative story okay okay
178:53
one of the things that both Mikayla and
178:56
I noticed was that when we restricted
178:59
our diet and then ate something we
179:01
weren’t supposed to the reaction to
179:03
eating what we weren’t supposed to was
179:04
absolutely catastrophic but it show what
179:07
did you switch to what did you eat
179:09
rather um well the worst response I
179:11
think we’re allergic to or allergic
179:13
whatever the hell this is having an
179:15
inflammatory response to something
179:17
called sulfites and we had some apple
179:19
cider that had sulfites in it and that
179:21
was really not good like I was done for
179:23
a month that was the first time I talked
179:25
to Sam Harris you were done for a month
179:27
oh yeah it took me out for a month it
179:28
was awful real yeah yeah so I would sell
179:31
oh and what so this is right before this
179:32
whole truth conversation with Sam Harris
179:35
at the Guthrie in the mud during during
179:36
it was I think the day I talked to Sam
179:39
was like the worst day of my life not
179:40
because of talking to Sam but it was
179:43
just physical Jesus I was so dead but I
179:45
didn’t want to not do it
179:46
cider like what was his own fights in
179:49
what was it doing there oh it produced
179:52
an overwhelming sense of impending doom
179:55
and I seriously been overwhelming like
179:57
there’s no way I could have lived like
179:59
that if that would have lasted for see
180:01
Mikayla knew by that point that it would
180:03
probably only last a month and I was
180:04
like a month yeah my fucking cider well
180:08
I didn’t sleep that that month I didn’t
180:10
sleep for 25 days I didn’t sleep at all
180:12
I didn’t sleep at all for 25 days how is
180:15
it possible that I’ll tell you how it’s
180:16
possible you lay in bed frozen in
180:20
something approximating terror for eight
180:22
hours and then you get up oh my god oh
180:24
yeah no and this is some fucking cider
180:26
from
180:27
that’s what we thought yeah I mean look
180:29
again I don’t know what the hell I’m
180:32
talking about okay this is all a mystery
180:34
to me
180:35
the fact that my daughter was so sick
180:37
see the one thing that I did know cuz I
180:39
scoured the literature on arthritis when
180:41
she was a kid the scientific literature
180:42
and because we were interested in the
180:44
dietary connection and the only thing I
180:46
could find that was reliable was that if
180:48
people with arthritis fasted their
180:51
symptoms reliably went away and that’s
180:53
actually a well-documented finding but
180:55
then if they started to eat again then
180:57
there were symptoms came back and I
180:59
thought well what the hell does it not
181:01
matter what they eat they can’t be
181:03
reactive to everything it’s like no but
181:07
they can be reactive to almost
181:08
everything and the difference between
181:10
everything and almost everything that’s
181:12
a big difference
181:13
and so Mikayla seems to be maybe me too
181:15
and hammies on the same diet because she
181:18
has autoimmune problems on her side of
181:19
the family so Mikayla seemed to inherit
181:21
all of them your skin looks better old
181:24
Jesus Joe I’m waiting whatever here yeah
181:26
yeah you you you look like more vibrant
181:28
it’s very strange thank you thank you
181:30
welcome
181:31
but the see my point is I you’re saying
181:34
that there’s a there is problems with
181:37
this diet but that doesn’t seem to be a
181:38
problem with a diet seems a problem with
181:40
deviating from the diet your body
181:41
becomes a custom with well one of the
181:43
thighs Isis that we’ve been pursuing and
181:46
there’s some justification for this and
181:47
the scientific literature is that the
181:49
reason that you lay on layers of fat is
181:52
because the fat acts as a buffer between
181:54
you and the toxic things that you’re
181:56
eating because fat is actually an organ
181:58
it has functions other than merely the
181:59
storage of of calories and maybe when
182:02
you strip out that protective layer then
182:05
you’re more sensitive to what you
182:06
shouldn’t be eating this is all
182:08
speculative hypotheses right or maybe
182:10
you sensitize yourself by removing it
182:12
from your constant diet I don’t bloody
182:14
well know well I would think it would be
182:16
much more likely that because you think
182:17
about people who are alcoholics they
182:19
develop a tolerance to alcohol
182:20
you know you get off of that and then
182:22
you have a drink and your tolerances are
182:24
shot and then you immediately have a
182:26
reverse reaction to the alcohol yeah
182:28
same thing with marijuana yeah when
182:30
people do it all the time you your body
182:32
becomes tolerant well I think I think
182:34
that the layering of fat on might be
182:36
part of the tolerance mechanism hmm so
182:39
it’s not merely a matter of
182:40
caloric intake it’s a matter of of toxic
182:43
telluric intake buffered by whatever it
182:45
is that fat is doing as a neuro
182:47
endocrine organ but again like I said I
182:50
said I’m out of my depth here but you
182:52
know the whole everyone’s out of their
182:54
depth the goddamn food pyramid was made
182:56
by the Department of Agriculture not the
182:58
Department of Health it wasn’t
182:59
predicated on any scientific studies
183:01
whatsoever
183:01
we should have we shouldn’t be eating
183:03
massive quantities of corn syrup we we
183:05
way too many carbohydrates Michaela
183:09
posted a paper the other day a doctor
183:11
has successfully treated type 1 diabetes
183:14
with a carnivore diet type 1 not type 2
183:17
so that’s bloody impressive yeah it’s
183:21
it’s very curious to me because you’re
183:24
talking about the one adverse reaction
183:26
which is when you deviated from the diet
183:28
yeah what I’m talking about is when I
183:30
read people’s accounts of trying this
183:33
diet it’s almost universally positive
183:35
you know but again that’s probably and
183:41
it’s the same with all these stories
183:42
that I’m collecting as I’m touring and
183:44
you know people lots of people have come
183:46
up to me and said look I lost 45 pounds
183:48
in the last three months I think yeah I
183:51
think what’s shocking to me I think well
183:53
what do you make of that say well I
183:55
can’t believe it well who can oh I
183:56
couldn’t believe it
183:57
fifty pounds it’s like first of all I
184:00
didn’t know I had fifty pounds to lose
184:01
you know I thought it was maybe 20
184:03
pounds heavier than I should have been
184:04
there should have been 185 something
184:06
like that I guess that’s 25 to 30 pounds
184:09
that was the maximum thought no no I
184:11
lost I meant 162 and I was at 212 so
184:14
what’s that fifty fifty pounds it’s a
184:18
lot of weight Jesus I threw had to throw
184:20
all my clothes away
184:22
it’s I can’t believe it when I saw you
184:24
last night I was like you’re so slim
184:26
like your your stomach is completely
184:28
flat and it’s and this is not a lean
184:31
mean fighting yeah man and you’re not a
184:33
an exercise fanatic it’s not like you’re
184:36
starving yourself it’s not like you know
184:37
and I’m not running 5 that’s another
184:39
thing I should say to people if you want
184:40
to try a diet like this you eat enough
184:43
meat and fat so you were not hungry okay
184:46
you can’t get hungry
184:47
you’re not eating enough if you’re
184:48
hungry and if you’re hungry you’re gonna
184:50
cheat and it’s gonna drive you stark
184:51
raving mad the other thing that was
184:53
really cool is like I really liked
184:54
sweets like I’ve kind of lived on peanut
184:56
butter sandwiches and chocolate milk
184:58
not really but that was my go-to food
185:00
you know both of which were terrible for
185:03
me but after I stopped eating
185:06
carbohydrates for a month the
185:08
carbohydrate cravings went away you know
185:11
last night when we were out for dinner
185:12
somebody ordered bread pudding and I
185:13
bloody love bread pudding with caramel
185:15
and and and ice cream so it was sitting
185:17
there and I could smell it like you know
185:19
I thought I could go all fantastic mr.
185:21
Fox on that bread pudding and just tear
185:24
it down in about 15 seconds but it
185:26
wasn’t it wasn’t as intense as a craving
185:28
for a cigarette if you’re Nick’s
185:29
ex-smoker it was like God be really nice
185:31
to eat that but like my appetite
185:34
declined by about 75% that’s been
185:36
permanent that’s been so there’s a
185:38
perverse thing for you
185:39
I eat way less and now I’m not as hungry
185:42
okay how does that make sense
185:44
well you’re not eating way less you’re
185:46
eating way less thing yes you have 30
185:48
ounce steak last night yes yes I’m doing
185:51
my best not to be hungry although it
185:53
didn’t look like I was 30 no no no
185:55
there’s a small 30 on the steak well I
185:57
think it starts out 30 ounces before
185:59
they cook it right loses a considerable
186:01
right right very fatty right but that’s
186:03
the other thing too you you must have to
186:06
get a lot of fat yeah well I eat fatty
186:08
cuts of steak and yeah Michaela is
186:09
buying fat directly from the butcher
186:12
store and we cooked that up cut it into
186:13
small pieces and fry it up till it’s
186:15
crispy Wow it’s actually quite delicious
186:18
it’s not bread pudding with ice cream
186:20
but it’s not funny
186:21
you mean Dino it’s so ridiculous well I
186:23
wanna I want your blood profile I want
186:25
to find out what’s going on with you
186:27
because one of the big misconceptions
186:29
when it comes to cholesterol and
186:30
saturated fat and food is that if you
186:33
eat dietary cholesterol that it affects
186:35
your
186:35
blood cholesterol levels it’s not it’s a
186:38
super common misconception well those so
186:40
the thing about clinical studies with
186:42
diet are virtually impossible to conduct
186:44
because you just can’t you can’t conduct
186:46
a proper randomly distributed controlled
186:49
experiment it’s too hard so a lot of
186:51
what we’re trying to do is pull out
186:52
information from correlations right you
186:55
can’t do it which is one of the real
186:56
problems with correlating meat with
186:59
cancer and diabetes and all these
187:01
different diseases is because people are
187:02
eating a bunch of shit with that oh yeah
187:04
and they have different lifestyle
187:06
profiles or like there’s just endless
187:07
numbers of confounding variables you
187:10
only need one con founding variable
187:12
that’s that’s relevant to screw up the
187:13
study right you can’t get that
187:15
information with correlational studies
187:17
we try because it’s impossible to do the
187:19
studies but how many people are
187:20
incredulous when they’re honey people
187:22
wouldn’t when they’re hearing about this
187:24
Oh everybody everybody well you or not
187:27
but you know you’re interested in this
187:29
sort of thing but they should be
187:29
incredulous like when people make absurd
187:31
claims is like oh well I had 50 health
187:34
problems and I stopped eating everything
187:35
but meat and they went away it’s like
187:36
whoo sure it’s like yeah well wasn’t you
187:39
dying so yeah and I see the results and
187:44
I know it’s an anecdote I bloody well
187:45
understand that and I’m highly skeptical
187:47
about all of this but I’m telling you so
187:49
that’s why I’m telling you what happened
187:51
to me and what happened to my daughter
187:52
and also what happened to my wife
187:53
because she’s Tammy was always in good
187:55
shape and she’s exercised a lot and she
187:58
reduced to the to the pure carnivore
188:01
died about a month ago she lost like 12
188:04
pounds
188:04
she was already slim she’s back to the
188:06
same weight she was when she was 21
188:09
she’s like 58 you know and she doesn’t
188:13
look 58 I can tell you that so it’s
188:16
really fascinating it’s really
188:18
fascinating because I just I as a person
188:22
who studied diet for many years I would
188:25
assume that you need phytonutrients I
188:27
would assume do you need vitamins
188:29
supplements like vitamin C for example
188:30
turns out if you don’t eat carbohydrates
188:32
you don’t need vitamin C ha who woulda
188:34
guessed how does that work I don’t I
188:37
don’t remember Michaela outlined a paper
188:39
for me
188:39
vitamin C is necessary for carbohydrate
188:41
metabolism but if you don’t if again
188:44
remember everyone listening I am NOT an
188:46
expert in this field right so
188:49
but but I want you to get your blood
188:52
tested because I think if be pretty
188:55
funny if it was in good shape yeah it
188:57
would be I mean I’d like to find out
188:59
what your nutrient levels are and where
189:00
they’re coming yeah I mean what what I’m
189:03
getting a little cramping in my toes
189:05
from time to time so I’m not sure about
189:07
potassium possibility that’s a
189:10
supplement it’s very easy which is why
189:12
I’m concerned but like and also minerals
189:15
you know you know in certain minerals
189:17
you’re getting from vegetables that
189:18
you’re probably not getting yeah well
189:20
this is all like look it seems not hard
189:23
to supplement that stuff though
189:24
colloidal minerals you know there’s some
189:26
mineral pills you could take plenty of
189:28
well there are plants are people who
189:30
basically lived on meat you know the any
189:32
what did the mess I basically did yeah
189:35
there some supplementation but not a lot
189:36
yeah and apparently if you do a
189:39
carnivore diet you’re supposed to eat
189:40
more organ meat and I do some of that
189:42
but not a lot but I can tell you like
189:44
I’m I mean well look I wouldn’t be doing
189:48
this if it wasn’t producing positive
189:49
results yeah it’s not like it’s fun
189:51
running for a while well it makes you a
189:53
social pariah mm-hm like let’s invite
189:56
the Petersons over oh yeah they don’t
189:58
eat anything oh we have other friends
189:59
that’s like well that’s how it works
190:01
it’s not malevolence right it’s just if
190:03
you’re a pain no one invites you out so
190:05
so I’m a social pain and an ideological
190:08
pain and now I’m a nutritional pain
190:10
because there’s no friends how difficult
190:12
is it when you’re trying to get
190:13
breakfast like what do you do when you
190:15
oh well lots of times when we were
190:17
traveling we cook so we’ll usually stay
190:20
in places where you can cook oh okay but
190:22
most places you can get a steak mm-hmm
190:25
and so that’s mostly what we do I’ve
190:26
been traveling in a Motorhome and so
190:28
we’ve been cooking in the Motorhome
190:29
and so not carry beef jerky with me
190:32
which we make what so yeah it’s crazy
190:35
you make your own beef jerky well it’s
190:38
like we have a dehydrator and you just
190:40
basically put salt on and throw in the
190:41
dehydrator so that works pretty well you
190:45
anticipate continuing this well forever
190:48
Cod forevers a long time I’d like to be
190:51
able to eat more things but I’m gonna
190:52
experiment with that very very very very
190:55
very cautiously I’m gonna add mushrooms
190:57
next because maybe I could eat them well
191:00
this is why I’m asking there
191:02
positive benefits that a lot of people
191:04
achieve and and experience when they
191:07
switch to a vegan diet yeah one of the
191:09
things it is is you get off of the
191:10
standard American diet with lots of
191:12
refined sugars and a lot of
191:15
preservatives a little shit and then you
191:18
find positive benefits Chris Kresser has
191:21
gone into depth about this but then over
191:22
time the nutritional bent deficiencies
191:25
in that start to wear on your health yep
191:28
and I’m wondering well it’s certainly
191:32
possible well certainly eventually this
191:34
diet will kill me no life will well
191:38
you’re right
191:39
biology will yes unless so it science
191:42
intervened
191:42
might be that for some people of Megan
191:45
dieters or vegan diet is preferable to a
191:48
standard American diet well for sure to
191:50
a standard American diet but also
191:52
there’s so much biological variability
191:54
yeah you know the things that bothers
191:56
some people don’t bother other people at
191:57
all and that’s that’s something that we
192:00
got to take into consideration yeah well
192:01
that’s why I don’t want to universalize
192:03
from my experience you know but but this
192:05
is what’s happened to me and this is
192:07
what’s happened to my wife and my
192:08
daughter
192:08
so and all of its being well with
192:10
Michaela it’s it’s miraculous I cannot
192:13
believe it the last time I saw it made
192:14
me cry I’ve never seen her look like
192:17
that she looks so good she’s so healthy
192:19
and all her other joints are not
192:21
experiencing any problem and she’s
192:22
taking no immunomodulators at all
192:25
no medication none and she was on him
192:27
fro Jesus yes more medication than you
192:30
can shake a stick at methotrexate which
192:31
is basically they use it to treat cancer
192:34
it’s a it’s a what’s what’s the cancer
192:36
treating drugs called whatever I don’t
192:39
remember at the moment she was on Enbrel
192:42
which really really helped but but later
192:43
opened to bacterial infections so she
192:45
always had pneumonia in the fall but
192:48
envel really helped and then heavy doses
192:52
of antidepressants and Ritalin and Jesus
192:54
how long has she been on this carnivore
192:56
diet oh god she’s only been eating meat
192:59
it’s got to be at least six to eight
193:02
months now Wow and does she get blood
193:06
work done uh yep and her blood work I
193:08
won’t comment on that I don’t know the
193:11
details of her blood work
193:14
I don’t know to answer that hmm it’s
193:17
fascinating I’m curious I’m considering
193:19
trying it for a while the problem is I
193:21
eat so much game meat you know what
193:23
there’s a lot get some fat yeah that’s
193:25
the trick there try it for a month see
193:27
what happens you what the hell a month
193:29
you know just a month ya know a months
193:32
not hard yeah interesting
193:36
all right let’s wrap this up all right
193:38
three hours it’s re 2:20 believe it or
193:40
not hey crazy prison it’s always a
193:42
pleasure great see one thing I want to
193:44
bring up ya for it how weird is this
193:46
whole association to you cuz it’s weird
193:50
to me the IDW yeah oh I D WI yeah
193:54
of course it’s election darkweb it is
193:56
it’s like I’ve been trying to puzzle it
193:58
out I mean I think what it is is a loose
194:01
collection of early adopters of a
194:02
revolutionary technology that’s what it
194:05
looks like to me and and it we found
194:06
each other because we’re all doing the
194:07
same thing but it’s also a bunch of
194:10
people that are honest intellectually
194:11
honest about their and and maybe don’t
194:14
even disagree even agree on folio
194:16
definitely but honest about perceptions
194:18
well and also I think interested in
194:20
long-form discussion yeah right and and
194:22
able to engage in it because otherwise
194:23
we wouldn’t be having the relative
194:25
success that we’re having in the in the
194:27
in the milieu you know and it got a name
194:29
and that’s kind of interesting and
194:31
that’s Eric though yeah that’s right
194:32
that’s Eric yes he loves it most
194:42
interesting about I love to rib him yeah
194:44
well it’s got this funny conspiratorial
194:46
element there that’s sort of true and
194:48
sort of mostly dramatic and was a
194:50
mathematician he’s always looking for
194:52
patterns codes yeah yeah I don’t know
194:55
what to make of it I mean things get a
194:57
name and then you think well why did
194:58
that get named and well someone named it
195:00
but yeah but the name stuck so it seemed
195:02
our proposed is some degree and well
195:04
what do we have in common most of us are
195:07
entrepreneurial most of us have our own
195:08
platform so we can speak independently
195:11
most of us are interested in long-form
195:14
philosophical discussions primarily not
195:16
political but but bordering on political
195:18
well just band’s more political oh yes
195:20
he’s the most yeah but he’s also very
195:22
sophisticated political commentators so
195:24
he borders on both the philosophical and
195:26
the religious yes so
195:28
and then we’re we’re we’re all the newly
195:32
new adopters of this new technology so
195:34
that’s enough to put us in a group and
195:35
then well it turns out that we’ve all
195:37
been talking to each other but part of
195:38
the reason for that is while we’re all
195:40
doing the same thing on the net so it’s
195:42
not surprising that we’re talking to
195:43
each other so I always go for the simple
195:45
explanations first you know it’s not a
195:47
movement exactly what it is it’s the
195:49
manifestation of a new technology and
195:52
then well do we have anything in common
195:53
that’s worth discussing that would make
195:56
this a viable group let’s say and the
195:58
answer to that is I don’t know you know
196:01
I’ve been touring with Ruben that’s been
196:03
good it’s been good to have a comedian
196:04
along and he’s also a good interviewer
196:06
he does the q and a’s with me and it’s
196:09
nice to have some levity in the mix
196:11
because of the conversations are the
196:12
discussions with the audience are very
196:13
serious although I can crack a joke and
196:15
I can’t tell a joke but if something
196:19
funny occurs to be I can say it and
196:22
sometimes it’s funny so that’s something
196:24
you know and we’ve been we’ve been
196:27
discussing a fair bit and I had good
196:29
conversations with Shapiro and Harris
196:30
for that matter so there is lots of
196:32
interplay between us but I think that’s
196:35
more because we we inhabit the same
196:37
technological space more than the same
196:39
ideological space apart from the fact
196:42
that we are actually interested in
196:44
dialogue fundamentally so we’ll see I
196:49
mean I’m watching it with curiosity are
196:53
you apprehensive do you think this is
196:54
sure potential downsides so there’s lots
196:56
of downsides to it sure there’s lots of
196:58
downsides I mean first of all you know
197:01
most of us are on an individual
197:04
individualistic path I’m not come I’m
197:06
not really much of a group guy you know
197:08
so am I in this group it’s like well I’m
197:11
pleased to be associated with you guys
197:13
that’s for sure but I don’t really know
197:16
what it would mean or if it should mean
197:17
anything or if it’ll screw up what I’m
197:18
doing or if it I don’t know anything
197:20
about it
197:21
but mostly I’m curious it’s like huh
197:24
this is a group I thought this is the
197:26
Rat Pack I thought what I walked into
197:28
the restaurant of us because we were out
197:29
last night was Ben Shapiro Sam Harris
197:32
Eric Weinstein Dave Rubin Joe Rogan and
197:35
me right and my wife Tammy and so we’re
197:38
all walking in there and I thought well
197:40
this is kind of like being
197:40
back in the 1950s I thought well I know
197:42
maybe it isn’t but that’s what came to
197:44
mind so I thought that’s funny and it’s
197:46
it’s it’s kind of cool and it’s
197:48
interesting and it’s edgy and all of
197:50
that but I’m not I’m not taking it
197:53
seriously
197:54
I’m not also not you know I’m not taking
197:56
it not seriously either
197:58
but I’m just watching I’m watching
198:00
everybody interact because it is a very
198:01
motley crew of people it is so and
198:04
they’re very different and so but it was
198:07
very much joy thank you okay so why did
198:10
you think it was enjoyable it’s good
198:11
conversation I mean yeah everyone that
198:14
was in that group has been on my podcast
198:15
or I’ve been on theirs and you know it’s
198:18
a fun group of really honest interesting
198:22
people that you Lear very peculiar
198:24
people specially Eric yeah he’s
198:27
listening right now I’m fucking with him
198:28
I love that guy but no I mean they’re
198:30
all it’s there everyone’s different but
198:33
everyone’s also unique and they all
198:34
bring a lot to the table and that’s
198:36
what’s interesting about it you know
198:37
think the weird collection yeah you know
198:40
I I don’t know what to think of it like
198:42
when Eric called me up about the whole
198:44
New York Times thing I’m like what are
198:45
you talking about right like why did you
198:49
do that
198:49
what I do what what did you be part of
198:51
the New York Times article I barely was
198:53
I just answered a couple questions but
198:56
there’s a review you’ve got a picture
198:57
yeah they didn’t direct they didn’t
199:00
obsess they shouldn’t taken a picture of
199:02
me I was dressed like I was going
199:03
onstage at the Comedy Store I didn’t
199:05
wear anything any differently they were
199:06
trying to make a big deal of it I’m like
199:07
look I don’t have any time this you want
199:09
to take a picture means is what I’m
199:10
wearing yeah and and we we did it on the
199:13
parking lot above the Comedy Store and
199:15
started to rain I go we’re done I got to
199:17
go I got to go onstage I can’t be
199:19
soaking wet you know and and then go
199:21
onstage and that was it
199:22
you know it was just okay so your take
199:24
on it is that it’s well it’s in turn is
199:26
its interest yes well this is the this
199:29
is probably another thing that unites
199:31
that group of people everyone in that
199:33
group of people is likely to get in
199:36
trouble because they find you too many
199:37
things interesting
199:39
right and it’s trade openness that’s
199:41
another thing that unites all of us yes
199:42
yeah and so and you know curiosity
199:45
killed the cat and so yeah but we’re not
199:47
cats true curiosity also built the
199:50
pyramids it did it did it and it saved a
199:52
lot of caps too
199:55
let’s end with that all right all right
199:57
Jordan all right pleasure my friend
199:59
chewy again see you always yeah yeah
200:01
that’s it folks see you soon
200:05
[Music]
200:10
[Applause]
200:12
[Music]

Joe Rogan Experience #1070 – Jordan Peterson

which which way these people are
55:55
thinking and why they think yeah well
and bad as that is and rife with
conflict as that is the alternative is
to separate as you pointed out into two
camps that don’t talk yes and the thing
is the the consequence of not talking is
that you fight that that’s the end game
because the only way you can stop from
fighting with other people is by
negotiating with them and you know one
of the things that’s also interesting
and this is partly why Silicon Valley
leans to the left is that a fair bit of
your political preference is determined
by your biological temperament it’s a
strongly influenced so if you’re a
creative type who’s kind of disorderly
then you’re likely to be on the liberal
left end of the distribution and if
you’re a non creative type who’s orderly
and and especially if your orderly then
you tend to be on the right-wing end of
things and so and well why is that why
do those variations exist well they
exist because some of the time your best
strategy is to do what other people have
done and shut the hell up
and just do it run the algorithm write
the pathways already laid clear it works
stay in the damn rut and move forward
okay so that’s the conservative approach
and when things are going right it’s the
right approach the problem is is that
sometimes it’s not the right approach
because something is shifted and so
something new has to emerge and so then
there’s a bunch of people who are
adapted to the new and those are the
entrepreneurial and creative types and
of course they dominate Silicon Valley
because it’s a very entrepreneurial it’s
a very entrepreneurial what would you
call it geography and so they’re gonna
lean to the left but they have to
understand people have to understand
that the left and the right need each
other the Liberals and the Conservatives
need each other liberals start companies
conservatives run them and the problem
with the Conservatives is well they can
only run a company in one direction
because they’re conservative they don’t
think outside the box but so if the
company is working in the product line
is good and every
stable like hire some conservatives
because they’ll maximize efficiency and
then move down that track but if the
track is no longer going in a good
direction because something’s change the
environments change well then you gotta
bring in the creative people and so we
need each other and the only way that we
can survive the fact that we’re
different and the fact that we need each
other is by continually talking they
have talked constantly it’s like well
how much of what we’re doing should we
preserve versus how much of what we’re
doing should we transform and the answer
is we don’t know because the environment
keeps changing so what do we do about
58:26
of so there’s this theory it’s a lovely
theory that’s laid out right at the
beginning of the Bible that says that
if you tell the truth you transform the
potential of being into a habitable
actuality that’s how it works so we say
well how do you want it how do you make
the world better tell the truth because
the world you bring into being as a
consequence of telling the truth will be
a good world and I believe that’s true I
think it’s true metaphorically I think
it’s true theologically and I think it’s
true like at the practical and
scientific level as well I think it’s
true and all those levels simultaneously
so that’s been ridiculously exciting to
just sort through I think this notion
and one of the things you said that I
think really resonates is that there’s
not a voice out there that is advocating
for responsibility and that is talking
about how important this is and I think
this is an inherent principle that most
people are kind of aware of and it feels
good to them to hear
I get resonates so you feel it you you
when you when you’re saying this clean
your room you know put your house in
order like yeah yeah how come I’m not
hearing this right I’m not hearing this
well it’s so funny because one of the
things psychologists have done for the
last 20 years especially the social
psychologist has pushed this idea of
self-esteem you should feel good about
yourself and I think why would you tell
someone 20 that it’s like you should
feel good about who you are it’s like no
you shouldn’t why should you feel good
about who you are it’s like you should
feel good about who you could be that’s
way better cuz you got sixty years to
turn into who you could wait a minute
are you what your accomplishments are or
are you dis individual going through
this journey I mean I don’t think
81:43
there’s anything wrong with feeling good
81:43
about who you are as long as it’s
81:46
tempered by an understanding of
81:47
potential and what you have accomplished
81:50
versus what you can accomplish well I
81:51
think having confidence is a big part of
81:54
it it is it is and I’m not saying that
81:55
people shouldn’t have confidence but
81:57
like often you take young people say
81:59
there are sixteen to twenty two and
82:00
they’re not really feeling that good
82:02
about who they are right because their
82:03
life is chaotic and and disorder and
82:05
they don’t know where they’re going and
82:06
they don’t know which way is up a call
82:08
so there could be bad parenting going on
82:12
and I think that’s one of the reasons
82:14
why presen eights with people this idea
82:15
of be happy for you about who you are
82:18
right feel good about who you write but
82:20
but the thing is it has
82:21
to be stated with precision it’s like
82:23
yes it’s like Lucia you should treat
82:26
yourself as if you’re valuable
82:28
especially in the Ho’s Angela but you
82:31
should concentrate on who you should
82:32
become especially if you’re young and so
82:34
let’s say you’re miserable and
82:35
nihilistic and chaotic and depressed and
82:37
all of that now and you have your
82:38
reasons you know terrible parenting
82:40
abuse all of those things it’s like well
82:42
you should feel good about yourself it’s
82:45
like no no it’s it’s not it’s not the
82:46
right message is that it’s more like you
82:50
should understand how much potential
82:52
there is within you to set that straight
82:54
and then you should do everything you
82:56
can to manifest that in the world and it
82:58
will set it straight and that’s better
83:00
than self esteem it’s like you’re you’re
83:02
in a crooked horrible position okay fine
83:04
there’s a lot of suffering and pain
83:05
associated with that yeah you can’t just
83:08
feel good about that because it’s not
83:09
good but you can do something about it
83:11
you can genuinely do something about it
83:13
and I think all the evidence suggests
83:15
that that’s the case yes so I’m telling
83:17
telling young people look there’s no
83:19
matter how bad your situation is I’m not
83:21
gonna pretend it’s okay it’s not okay
83:23
it’s tragic
83:24
tainted with malevolence and some people
83:27
really get hurt by malevolent people
83:28
like you know terribly hurt sometimes
83:30
they never recover it’s really awful but
83:33
there’s more to you than you think and
83:35
if you stand up and face it with with
83:37
the positive with a with a noble vision
83:40
with discipline and intent you can go
83:43
far farther to overcoming it than you
83:46
can imagine
83:47
and that’s the principle upon which you
83:49
should predicate your behavior and I
83:51
think that one of the things that’s
83:53
really nice about being the clinical
83:54
psychologist is that this isn’t just
83:56
guesswork like one of the things we know
83:58
two things in clinical psychology one is
84:01
truthful conversations redeemed people
84:03
because if you come to a clinical
84:05
psychologist who’s worth is salt you’ll
84:09
have a truthful conversation the
84:11
conversation is well here’s what’s wrong
84:13
with my life and here’s what caused it
84:16
you know maybe it takes a year to have
84:17
that conversation and both of the
84:19
participants are doing everything they
84:21
can to lay it out properly here’s how it
84:24
might be fixed here’s what a beneficial
84:26
future might look like and so it’s a
84:28
completely honest conversation if it’s
84:29
working well and all that’s happening in
84:32
the conversation is that the two people
84:33
involved
84:34
are trying to make things better that’s
84:36
the goal let’s see if we can have a
84:38
conversation that will make things
84:39
better okay so we know that works it
84:41
does make things better and then another
84:43
thing we know is that well let’s say
84:45
there’s a bunch of things that you’re
84:46
afraid of that are in your way so you
84:49
have some vision about who you want to
84:50
be maybe you have to you know you want
84:52
to be successful in your career so you
84:54
have to learn to talk in front of a
84:55
group it’s like okay well you’re afraid
84:57
of that no wonder you don’t want to be
84:59
humiliated so okay so what do we do
85:01
93:51
because sometimes you know you’re just
93:53
hopeful I would like a good thing to
93:55
happen it’s like yeah but you know I’d
93:56
like to drink half a bottle of whiskey
93:58
tonight – it’s like so which is it gonna
94:00
be well just being hopeful about the
94:03
future might not be enough but then you
94:05
think oh I see like there’s that little
94:07
hell thing that I outlined it’s waiting
94:09
for me and maybe I’m afraid of taking
94:11
the nips next step forward because it’s
94:12
demanding and challenging it’s like yeah
94:14
I’m afraid of that but I’m way more
94:16
afraid of where I might end up if I
don’t get my act together and people
should be that’s why their conceptions
of hell in so many religions it’s like
hell is a real place whether it’s
eternal that’s a whole different
question whether it’s waiting for you in
the afterlife that’s a whole different
question but if you’ve never met anyone
in Hell you haven’t lived very long you
haven’t had your eyes open yeah it’s
undeniable that feeling of total
complete misery and deniable yeah
especially when it’s compounded by the
fact that you know you did it to
yourself
that’s the real fun that’s the real fun
part it’s like I’m having a bitch of a
time and I richly deserve it
97:11
that’s that I have a chapter in there on
97:13
raising kids it says don’t like your
97:15
kids don’t let your kids do anything it
97:17
makes you just like them it’s like well
that’s first predicated on the
observation that you’re quite a monster
and it would be better for your kids if
they didn’t get on your bad side and
like again because I’m a clinical
psychologist a monster why why do you
use that term because I’ve watched
families like I’ve seen families where
it’s as if every single person in the
family has their hands around the neck
of the family member that’s close to
97:39
them and they’re squeezing but only
97:41
tight enough to strangle them in 20
97:43
years but you’re not always using it as
97:45
a pejorative you you you’ve also used it
97:47
you should become a monster you should
97:48
be a monster yeah but that’s that’s you
97:52
shouldn’t be it it shouldn’t be
97:54
accidental that’s the thing what
97:57
so what do you mean by monster then in a
97:58
positive sense like you feel a monster
98:00
oh that’s easy among a positive monster
98:02
is somebody who says no and means it
98:04
because when you say no what you mean is
98:07
there isn’t anything you can do to me
98:08
that will make me agree to do this why
98:10
is that a monster because you have to be
98:11
because no one will take you seriously
98:13
otherwise no one will take you seriously
98:15
like no means if you keep pushing this
98:19
something that you do not like will
98:21
happen to you that’s what no means you
98:23
don’t have any strength of character
98:24
unless you can put up a fight you know
98:27
and to be able to say no to something is
98:29
to be able to put up a fight so and you
98:31
can’t do that if you’re if you can be
98:33
pushed around you’ll just get argued
98:34
into submission or you’ll feel guilty
98:36
because you’re causing conflict or
98:38
something like that but isn’t there
98:39
confusion using those terms as a
98:41
positivism and a negative maybe there’s
98:42
another word instead of monster well
98:44
there is there is the potential there is
98:47
the potential for confusion you say well
98:48
is that something that can be I think
98:51
monster is a horrible thing I don’t
98:52
think of it as being like a wall like
98:55
someone who is just rock-solid in their
98:58
belief system and rock-solid and their
99:01
understanding when you fight someone
99:03
who’s formidable say what do you think
99:05
of the person that you’re fighting like
99:07
how would you characterize them they may
99:09
have a monstrous side because they can
99:11
think they can they can bring physical
99:15
substantial physical force to bear on
99:18
the situation and and be willing to do
99:21
it so they’re not naive and and harmless
99:24
by any stretch of the imagination right
99:26
they have a well-developed capacity for
mayhem they think well is that monstrous
it’s like well I would say yes I would
say fierce fierce fine let’s go with
that yeah because someone who’s fierce
and formidable it’s not necessarily a
monster you know just I think of a
monster as being just an awful person
99:47
who’s done awful things and just you
99:49
know okay well so fair enough well so
99:52
back to the back to this situation with
99:54
your kids while you definitely don’t
99:56
want to have your kids act in a way that
99:57
awakens your inner monster right let’s
100:00
put it that way and so you need to you
100:02
need to organize your family with a
100:05
certain amount of discipline and a
100:06
certain amount of structure so that you
100:08
get to do what you want which is back to
100:10
that
100:10
to the point that you made earlier so
100:12
that you’re happy to have your kids
100:14
around so that you won’t take revenge on
100:15
them and so you want to lay your life
100:18
out so that well so that it’s providing
100:23
you what you need to not be bitter and
100:26
to work for your best interests and for
100:28
the interests of everyone else that
100:30
would be lovely and I think it’s
100:31
attainable you know because the book is
100:34
very dark and and I’m a very dark guy in
100:36
some ways because I’ve looked at the
100:38
terrible things that people do to one
100:39
another that’s the fascinating way of
100:41
looking at you think you yourself as
100:42
dark as I don’t think of you as dark oh
100:45
that’s good
100:45
the more relevant thing is that I’ve
been studying these old stories these
archetypal stories for a very long
period of time and they have power they
really have power and they manifest
themselves everywhere they manifest
themselves in movies and in books and I
mean Harry Potter’s a mythological story
and it made Roland richer than the Queen
of England you know these stories have
power and I was fortunate enough to
study a large number of people large
number of scholars who knew what that
power was Carl Jung in particular and I
could make it more accessible to people
and so that’s a big part of it but what
overall significance of that is well I
just it just leaves me speechless I mean
there’s Kathy Newman things a good
example and I mean so many things have
happened I’ve got involved I’ve been in
a scandal of some sort a serious scandal
of some sort probably every three weeks
for a year and a half you know and there
are things that are just well the did
James tomorrow thing is a good example
of that like that’s a big deal you know
that that explosion that that that
emerged around him in the court case
that’s coming out of it it’s a big deal
and this thing with Lindsay Shepard that
was the worst scandal that
hit a Canadian University and then there
was all the protests and and then there
was what happened with with channel 4
the UK and it’s like I don’t know what
to make of it
I don’t what what I’m trying to do is
have a good conversation when I come and
talk to somebody like you where we can
have a good conversation try not to say
118:18
anything stupid that’s really what I’m
118:20
trying to do is to not say anything
118:22
stupid that’s hard or too stupid yeah
118:27
yeah well didn’t it’s being high stakes
118:28
poker yeah you know for it’s not quite
118:31
so bad now because especially after what
118:35
happened with channel 4 and some
118:36
journalists like people have been trying
118:38
to take me out for quite a long time and
118:39
it’s not it isn’t working so far
118:43
actually you actually believe what
118:45
you’re saying and it actually makes
118:46
sense well you know that’s that’s it’s
118:50
not a bad start but it’s rare in this
118:51
world this is a especially in these
118:53
ideologically charged times yeah this
118:56
toxic tribalism that we keep bringing up
118:58
it’s well and I also decided like a long
119:01
time ago and and I I think this runs
119:03
through 12 rules for life is well I
119:05
believe that people’s decisions tilt the
119:07
world towards heaven or hell I think
119:10
there’s no more accurate way of
119:11
describing the consequences of each of
119:14
your decisions than that you face
119:16
potential that’s what you face that’s
119:19
what you face in the world is potential
119:20
it’s not Material reality it’s potential
119:23
and every decision you make you’re
119:26
deciding whether you want to make the
119:27
world better or worse and if you like
119:30
the ultimate better is heaven and the
119:32
ultimate worse is hell we know how to
119:33
make the world into hell we’ve done that
119:36
multiple times much of the 20th century
119:38
was that it’s like I looked it all out
119:40
and I thought okay I would rather that
119:42
the world didn’t degenerate into hell
119:44
and I understand why people wanted to
119:46
degenerate into hell they’re angry
119:48
they’re angry because they suffer they
119:51
suffer unfairly and they suffer because
119:53
people hurt them and so they think this
119:56
is a bad game I’m not going to help make
119:58
it better I’m angry I’m gonna make it
120:01
worse even that’s what the call of mine
120:02
kids did you know that’s what all the
120:05
mass shooters do they say to hell with
120:06
this I hate it
120:08
they’re so far behind the game they just
120:09
want to flip the table yeah yeah worse
120:11
than that they they want it
120:12
obliterate the game yes and they want to
120:15
do it with as much malice as possible
120:17
just to obtain revenge and I understand
120:19
that but I decided a long time ago that
120:21
I would rather not play that game I
120:23
think it I think that it’s possible that
120:26
we could make the world better I really
120:28
believe they leave that too so I think
120:29
well the so I’m I’m trying to tell
120:32
people look there’s more to you than you
120:34
think there’s more potential there’s
120:36
more than enough potential to go around
120:38
there’s definite suffering and
120:40
malevolence in the world we could fix it
120:41
you haven’t got anything better to do
120:43
that’s a very big point that there’s
120:44
more potential to go around talking
120:46
about more than people understand we’re
120:47
not gonna run now to put that no we’re
120:49
not and with this idea of the famine
120:51
thinking is one of the reasons why
120:53
people get upset at other people’s
120:55
success they think somehow another this
120:57
other person’s success takes something
120:59
away from them yep yeah well there’s and
121:01
it’s see the other thing too is that
121:03
I’ve realized that people actually act
121:05
like what they confront in the world is
121:07
potential it’s so funny because whatever
121:09
potential is it’s it’s not materially
121:12
measurable but if you tell someone
121:13
you’re not living up to your potential
121:15
they go it’s like well what is that
121:18
potential that you’re not living up to
121:19
and then when you say well there’s
121:21
potential in front of you you know that
121:23
you can walk out on the street and you
121:25
go right or left or straight ahead like
121:27
you’re facing this thing that isn’t
121:29
fully formed and you get to decide how
121:32
it’s going to form and you can make it
121:36
better and so my question is like the
121:38
world’s a rough place there’s no doubt
121:39
about it it’s a harsh place but my
question is what would happen if we
start making it worse how good could it
be if we stop making it worse and I
don’t know if there’s an upper limit to
that like it might be maybe we could
make it really really really good why
not and we don’t have any better to do
than that
it’s like aim at heaven start at home
aim at heaven tell the truth let’s see
what the hell happens you know like it
is the case clearly on the facts of the
matter in 20 years there wouldn’t have
to be a single person in the world that
was hungry in 20 years we could get rid
of the 5 biggest diseases that currently
plague the planet we could straighten
things up and god only knows what things
could be like that or we could let the
whole thing DJ
right into hell so in each of us is
making that decision with each decision
that’s the other thing that I’ve
understood so take your choice you want
hell are you want heaven if you pick
hell just remember you knew what you
were doing when you picked it but nobody
picks hell yeah just sort of let it
slide yeah but they do it because they
blind themselves you know you know when
you do it you say oh yeah well you know
I let that slide then you and then you
don’t think about it it’s like you could
think about it you could think about it
123:02
you could know but you don’t let
123:04
yourself know is any of this all the
123:09
pressure and the scandal every three
123:10
weeks is this this is it way on you is
123:14
it is it difficult how are you feeling
123:18
like when we’re not feeling strange
123:20
thing
123:21
yeah it’s like it’s like simultaneously
123:23
the worst possible thing and the best
123:25
possible thing that could happen well
123:27
financially it’s been a boom right yes
123:30
it’s which I mean the thing that I’ve I
123:35
shouldn’t say this but I’m going to
123:37
because it’s just so goddamn funny I
123:38
can’t help but say that I figured out
123:40
how to monetize social justice warriors
123:42
[Laughter]