Life Of Brian- 1979 Debate (3/4)

The full debate from “Friday Night, Saturday Morning”, 9th November 1979. On the edition of 9 November 1979, hosted by Tim Rice, a discussion was held about the then-new film Monty Python’s Life of Brian, which been banned by many local councils and caused protests throughout the world with accusations that it was blasphemous. To argue in favour of this accusation were broadcaster and noted Christian Malcolm Muggeridge and Mervyn Stockwood (the then Bishop of Southwark). In its defence were two members of the Monty Python team, John Cleese and Michael Palin.

How Toxic Masculinity, Honor Culture, and Lack of Discipline Undermined the Southern Army during the Civil War

Why the Confederacy Lost: The Experiences of Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia

Joseph Glatthaar, the Stephenson Distinguished Professor of history at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, spoke at Vanderbilt University Feb. 8, 2011, as part of a College of Arts and Science-sponsored series of lectures about the Civil War. Glatthaar teaches about the Civil War and is the author of “General Lee’s Army: From Victory to Defeat.”

Transcript

00:07
thank you very much I’m really delighted
00:09
to be here let’s hope you still have
00:13
that same commitment to applause when
00:15
the talks over when Jefferson Davis
00:22
became president of the Confederate
00:23
States of America it was apparent to him
00:25
that a war was going to occur and Davis
00:28
formulated the Confederate strategy the
00:31
strategy was simple to punish the
00:33
invaders the objective was to discourage
00:37
future attacks and also to convince the
00:40
northern public that future attacks
00:43
would be futile and that military
00:46
efforts to reconquer the Confederate
00:48
States would fail one of the most
00:52
celebrated officers in the Confederacy
00:53
Edward Porter Alexander explained the
00:57
Confederacy hoped quote that the
00:59
desperation of her resistance would
01:01
finally exact from her adversary such a
01:04
price in blood and treasure as to
01:07
exhaust the enthusiasm of its population
01:09
for the objects of war Davis wanted his
01:21
subordinate generals to strike the enemy
01:24
as close to the borders as possible as
01:27
Davis explained to one general officer
01:29
resist invasion as far as may be
01:32
practicable and repel the invaders
01:34
whenever and however it may be done
01:36
because citizens and soldiers lived
01:40
along avenues of invasion Davis believed
01:43
the Confederacy could not yield
01:45
territory unless it was absolutely
01:46
necessary quote the evacuation of any
01:50
portion of territory involves not only
01:52
the loss of supplies but in every
01:55
instance has been attended by a greater
01:57
or less loss of troops end quote now
02:01
every strategy has its flaws
02:03
particularly one against an enemy that
02:06
has superiority and manpower and
02:08
resources those nations such as the
02:11
Confederacy with inferior resources in
02:14
manpower can compensate by developing a
02:17
sound strategy and utilizing resources
02:19
more efficiently
02:20
we also by tapping soldiers and
02:23
civilians commitment to the cause and
02:25
requiring them to endure more hardships
02:28
than their enemy but the fact remains
02:30
they have a limited margin for error as
02:34
that margin for error is stripped away
02:36
the demands of war cutting to the sinew
02:39
and bone of the war effort
02:41
breaking down institutions and morale
02:44
and inflicting ever-increasing hardship
02:46
for the Confederate States of America
02:48
there would be enormous hardship
02:51
sacrifices and tragedies the war would
02:53
stretch manpower and resources to the
02:55
breaking point and they would incur
02:58
heavy losses delivering powerful blows
03:01
against the enemy nonetheless Davis
03:04
believed the Confederate people could
03:05
endure any sacrifice for freedom and
03:08
independence we will do all that can be
03:11
done by plucking muscle endurance and
03:13
dogged courage
03:14
– and red-hot patriotism Davis claimed
03:18
no Confederate Army fulfilled that
03:21
strategy like the Army of Northern
03:23
Virginia yet even it wore down in the
03:26
face of two then three and finally four
03:28
years of fighting against those
03:30
overwhelming odds the margin for error
03:34
dwindled and ultimately disintegrated
03:37
fissures appeared in every institution
03:39
in every facet of life including the
03:42
Army of Northern Virginia and despite
03:44
its efforts it too was ultimately
03:47
overcome now the Army of Northern
03:49
Virginia had to utilize manpower and
03:51
resources effectively but the two early
03:54
commanders Pierre Gustav Teuton
03:57
Beauregard and Joseph E Johnston
04:00
established ineffective precedents and
04:03
policies three times those officers
04:07
abandoned position one in Harpers Ferry
04:10
another in Northern Virginia and a third
04:12
at the Manassas Centreville axis the
04:15
result was massive destruction that not
04:18
only affected the Confederacy’s ability
04:20
to prosecute the war after all the
04:22
resources were precious but it also sent
04:25
the wrong message to troops the
04:27
destruction helped establish aspects of
04:30
the military culture that encouraged in
04:32
discipline in the
04:34
and that paid little credence to the
04:36
preservation of valuable resources which
04:39
in turn reduced the Confederate margin
04:41
for error now every organization has a
04:45
culture and the Army of Northern
04:46
Virginia was no different army culture
04:50
derives from two areas elements that
04:53
individuals bring into the military from
04:56
civil life and military experiences in
04:59
training normally boot camp tears down
05:03
and rebuilds so that the military
05:05
culture flows from the top down but with
05:08
no such experience and because officers
05:11
largely came from home we’re learning on
05:14
the job and failed to rigorously
05:16
discipline their men the culture tended
05:19
to flow from the bottom up at the core
05:23
virtually all these citizen soldiers
05:25
share the same fundamental beliefs in
05:28
the rightness of secession and slavery
05:30
from society they inherited Southern
05:33
Honor an overarching concept that
05:36
embraced powerful perceptions of manhood
05:39
integrity independence valor kinship and
05:43
esteem and among the elite both luxury
05:47
and generosity in times of war a
05:50
wholehearted allegiance to the spirit of
05:52
Honor would serve its soldiers well but
05:56
southern society also promoted certain
05:58
qualities that did not benefit the
06:01
Confederate nation in a war against the
06:03
better resourced Union a lack of
06:05
discipline and particularly among the
06:07
well-to-do a spirit of prophecy and
06:10
self-indulgence were acceptable modes of
06:13
conduct before the war closely related
06:17
to one another these three behaviors
06:19
elevated the individual over the group
06:22
and tolerated conduct and uniform that
06:25
was not conducive to effective military
06:27
service more than a simply a spirit of
06:30
individualism which the army could
06:32
harness and convert to military purposes
06:35
these qualities diminished the
06:37
usefulness of the soldier in the pre-war
06:40
South an individual who squandered money
06:42
recklessly was not necessarily scorned
06:45
in some circles he earned prey
06:48
days by distinguish himself from his
06:50
penurious materialistic northern
06:52
countrymen southerners particularly
06:55
males aspired to fulfill their every
06:57
impulse and desire and society tolerated
07:01
often encouraged such indulgence
07:04
attention to administrative detail and
07:07
other mundane matters were beneath many
07:09
of them undisciplined conduct and open
expression of passion or a ready resort
to violence was not necessarily
considered unbecoming in the pre-war
South
after all to adhere to a code of
discipline meant that others impose
their will on the individual such
dominance of the individual smacked of
slavery and southern whites were
extremely sensitive to it
even in the
realm of laws and codes of moral conduct
southern males abided by them
voluntarily not out of compunction if
society compelled them to obey then it
dominated the individual and deprived
him of his manhood and no
self-respecting white southerner could
endure
that these qualities made them
wonderful motivated soldiers but they
also promoted the resistance to
discipline which in turn was the key to
effective utilization of limited
resources
now the Battle of Seven Pines on May
31st 1862 Joseph e Johnston was badly
08:12
wounded and Jefferson Davis assigned
08:16
robert e lee quote/unquote temporarily
08:19
to be commander of that army when lee
08:22
stepped into that position he confronted
08:24
two huge problems one the obvious one
08:27
Union forces were literally at the gates
08:29
of Richmond they were three miles
08:31
outside of Richmond and the second one
08:33
was that there were administrative and
08:35
discipline problems in the army staff
08:39
officers practice sloppy paperwork
08:42
procedures and soldiers failed to
08:44
conserve and as a result troops went
08:46
without and suffered I remember one
08:48
instance where troops literally outside
08:50
of Richmond had to trap rats soak them
08:53
in water overnight and then fry them for
08:55
food that doesn’t appeal to me perhaps
08:58
your dietary practices or otherwise
09:01
and of course these practices also
09:05
encouraged undisciplined behavior
09:07
because soldiers coming from American
09:10
society were problem solvers if they
09:12
didn’t get fed by the army they were
09:14
going to solve the problem themselves
09:15
which means that they were going to take
09:17
from civilians now when Lee stepped in
09:20
he had a great reputation of course you
09:23
probably know this Lee graduated second
09:25
in his class at the United States
09:27
Military Academy he graduated without
09:28
receiving any demerits he was one of
09:30
several of his class who did so and of
09:33
course he emerged from the Mexican War
09:35
as Tim Johnson will say as Winfield
09:38
Scott’s favorite Winfield Scott said in
09:40
testimony that he thought Robert Ely was
09:42
the finest soldier in the US Army yet
09:46
within certain circles there was an
09:47
undercurrent of doubt about Lee by May
09:50
1861 after exposure to Lee over the six
09:53
previous years Edmund Kirby Smith had
09:56
come to the conclusion that Lee lacked
09:58
ability for large-scale command
10:01
describing his selection to head
10:02
Virginia forces as quote unfortunate
10:05
unquote Smith like numerous others was
10:08
put off by Lee slowness to come to a
10:10
decision
10:11
Sam Melton who served on Brigadier
10:14
General millage L bottom staff and had a
10:16
very fair favorable opinion of Lee I
10:18
might add informed his wife in May 1861
10:22
that Lee quote is a splendid officer
10:24
slow too slow but thoroughly
10:26
accomplished
10:27
end quote in a letter that has become
10:30
almost famous for its miss reading of
10:32
the man South Carolina Governor Francis
10:36
W Pickens announced a bonham just before
10:39
the Battle of first Manassas quote the
10:41
truth is Lee is not with us at heart or
10:44
he is a common man with good looks and
10:46
too cautious for practical revolution
10:49
end quote
10:50
be careful what you write because it may
10:52
be saved and you’ll look like an idiot I
10:55
mean this will go this is really the
10:57
most representative document we have of
10:59
Francis W Pickens I’m sure he did other
11:02
things some things right in this
11:04
instance he sort of missed even least
11:07
trusted staff member Walter H Taylor
11:10
complained to his Bradt future bride
11:12
late in the war about Lee’s slowness
11:15
he is too undecided Taylor grumbled
11:17
takes too long to firm his conclusions
11:20
after the first campaign a failure
11:23
amid the rugged terrain of western
11:25
Virginia Lee’s reputation plummeted even
11:28
more fueled by excessively optimistic
11:31
tales in the newspapers as the campaign
11:34
was unfolding soldiers and civilians
11:36
alike reacted to the results of the
11:38
campaign as if Lee had committed some
11:40
monstrous blunder the newspapers and the
11:44
public how old over leaves incompetence
11:47
Edward a power to Richmond newspaperman
11:50
and sharp critic of the Davis
11:51
administration determined quote the most
11:54
remarkable circumstance of this campaign
11:56
was that it was conducted by a general
11:59
who had never fought a battle who had a
12:01
pious horror of guerrillas and whose
12:04
extreme tenderness of blood induced him
12:07
to depend exclusively upon the resources
12:10
of strategy to essay the achievement of
12:13
victories without the cost of life end
12:16
quote
12:17
a student at West Point when Lee was
12:19
superintendent there Ben Alston reported
12:22
to his father that people called Lee a
12:25
dirt dauber a small insect that leaves a
12:29
soil trail in its wake Alexander C
12:33
Haskell a family friend of the Lee’s
12:35
described to his mother a satirical
12:38
sketch he had seen of Lee quote with a
12:40
double-barrel spyglass in one hand and a
12:44
spade in the other reconnoitering in the
12:46
position of the enemy the caption of the
12:48
of the cartoon read quote to retreat a
12:51
little and throw up fortifications the
12:53
instant he sets eyes upon them shooting
12:58
Haskell believed this is unjust to a
13:00
fine officer but it does somewhat
13:03
exhibit his very cautious policy to
13:07
remove Lee from the Richmond spotlight
13:09
Davis sent him to the Department of
13:11
South Carolina Georgia and Florida to
13:13
oversee defenses there a job hardly
13:16
worth the third highest-ranking officer
13:18
in the Confederate Army as the spring of
13:21
1862 approached however Davis brought
13:24
Lee back to Richmond to help him the
13:27
reaction remained hostile
13:28
the appointment of General Lee is chief
13:31
military advisor of the president looks
13:33
like a fatal mistake a member of
13:35
Johnson’s staff wrote his wife B’s quote
13:39
traits of mind unquote would prove more
13:42
problematic than they were the previous
13:44
year he predicted and then he concluded
13:46
with the words may God in mercy protect
13:49
us
13:50
Catherine Edmundston a North Carolinian
13:52
and an unusually perceptive diarist held
13:55
nothing but contempt for Lee he is too
13:59
timid believes too much in master Lee
14:01
inactivity finds his strength too much
14:04
in sitting still even Lee’s counterpart
14:08
on the Union side Major General George B
14:10
McClellan rejoiced when he thought that
14:13
Lee in his new position would replace
14:14
Johnston as the field commander
14:17
I prefer ally to Johnston he elaborated
14:20
to Lincoln
14:21
the former is too cautious and weak
14:23
under grave responsibility personally
14:26
brave and energetic to a fault he yet is
14:29
wanting in moral firmness when pressed
14:32
by heavy responsibilities and is likely
14:34
to be timid and irresolute in action end
14:38
quote we would call that projection
14:44
that’s exactly the way McClellan was to
14:47
a tee getting his job as commander of
14:54
the Virginia forces and then as military
14:56
adviser to the President Lee gained
14:57
great insight into the Confederacy’s
14:59
capacity to make war he fully understood
15:02
that the Confederacy had a limited
15:04
margin for error the Confederate people
15:07
Lee insisted must make up our minds to
15:09
great suffering he then concluded all
15:12
must be sacrificed to the country as
15:15
army commander Lee began immediately to
15:18
institute changes one of the first
15:20
things he did in special orders number
15:22
22 June 1st 1862 he referred to it as
15:25
the Army of Northern Virginia other
15:28
people had called it that at times but
15:30
the name never stuck and once Lee did
15:33
and he announced that his headquarters
15:35
was part of the department of Northern
15:37
Virginia then the name Army of Northern
15:39
Virginia became fixed with
15:42
li and that body of soldiers he
15:44
established and enforced routines for
15:46
the distribution of provisions and
15:48
required division commanders to
15:50
scrutinize requisitions of subordinates
15:53
as I mentioned Johnson’s staff was
15:55
pretty inept at administering and then
15:58
the galacon neglect in paperwork meant
16:01
that soldiers didn’t get provided for
16:03
with supplies li circulated directives
16:07
to all officers to pay attention to the
16:10
quote health and comfort of the men
16:12
under command and spare unnecessary
16:14
exposure and fatigue so that everyone
16:17
was ready for battle in one of Richard’s
16:19
favorite moments Lee even authorized the
16:23
distribution of whiskey rations at the
16:25
discretion of officers quote when deemed
16:28
essential to the health of the men from
16:31
inclemency and weather or exposure in
16:33
the swamps I’m sure many college
16:35
students would mind Sherman Lee’s army
16:37
for a day Lee crackdown on lost or
16:43
damaged supplies which hindered the war
16:44
effort severely quote the increasing
16:47
difficulty in replacing them he directed
16:49
makes greater watchfulness and care
16:51
necessary in their preservation one week
16:54
later he complained quote the means of
16:57
supply are becoming more limited while
16:59
the demand continues great end quote
17:01
on his daily rides Lee quote observed
17:05
with concern in passing through camps
17:07
too much disregard to the proper
17:09
preservation of public property be
17:12
careful to use those kinds of P words
17:15
and public addresses it’s really easy to
17:17
stumble over the words he was firmly
17:20
convinced that our successes mainly
17:23
dependent upon the economical and proper
17:25
appropriation of public property at all
17:27
times end quote compared to the northern
17:31
enemy Confederates had a very little
17:33
margin for error and to win they must
17:35
husband those resources Lee then
17:38
gathered intelligence from the enemy
17:40
from newspapers and he sent Jeb Stewart
17:42
on a cavalry ride around the Union
17:44
position he directed his sharpshooters
17:47
and our terrorists to pester the enemy
17:48
as much as possible so they couldn’t
17:50
build works meanwhile he was employing
17:53
his own troops at building works
17:55
here he was challenging a naive cultural
17:58
perspective on warfare soldiers thought
18:02
they would just slug it out in the open
18:03
field against the Yankees and rely on
18:05
their superior character and martial
18:07
skills to win the day it never crossed
18:10
their minds that they would have to
18:11
wield axes and shovels that was worked
18:14
for slaves our people are opposed to
18:19
work Lee alerted Davis our troops
18:22
officers community and press all
18:24
ridicule and resisted yet he went on to
18:27
explain that it was the very means by
18:29
which McClellan was closing in on
18:31
Richmond why should we leave to him the
18:34
whole advantage of holding advantage of
18:36
laborers combined with valor fortitude
18:39
and boldness of which we have no fair
18:41
proportion it should lead us to success
18:44
after describing how the Romans combined
18:47
fortifications and fighting so
18:48
skillfully we then concluded quote there
18:51
is nothing so military as labor and
18:53
nothing so important to our army as to
18:56
save the lives of its soldiers end quote
18:58
three days into his command he ordered
19:01
each division to assign 300 men to work
19:04
on the supervision of engineer officers
19:07
to dig fortifications soldiers resented
19:11
the labor Lee didn’t care
19:13
trenches and works would save rebel
19:16
lives and multiply combat power he also
19:19
ordered men to quote strengthen their
19:21
positions in the most perfect manner
19:24
with redoubts barricades a batiste
19:27
rifle pits etc so that everyone has a
19:30
hand in the manual labor in quote they
19:37
finally entered combat and fight they
19:39
did winning the seven days battles in
19:41
June and early July and then taking the
19:44
war into Northern Virginia and winning
19:46
the second Manassas campaign literally
19:48
driving the Yankees out of almost every
19:50
ounce of Virginia soil and then taking
19:54
the war into Maryland but after three
19:56
months of fighting Lee knew that he had
19:59
serious discipline problems Lee believed
20:02
quote the material of which it is
20:04
composed is the best in the world and
20:06
nothing can surpass the gallantry and
20:09
intelligent
20:09
of the main body in quote soldiers
20:12
brought with them from civil life
20:14
qualities and motivations that make
20:16
confederate soldiers in lee’s opinion
20:18
the best infantrymen in the world but
20:21
other aspects injured their cause in
20:23
other ways have the Confederacy
20:26
organized units differently Lee believed
20:28
had they not been introduced prematurely
20:30
into combat without adequate training
20:32
and regimentation had they not endured a
20:35
series of harsh conditions hard marches
20:38
and frequent campaigns and battles we
20:40
felt they might have been able to alter
20:42
military culture but the demands of war
20:45
permitted no such opportunity by the
20:48
time Lee was in a position to implement
20:51
any changes he encountered three
20:52
difficulties first military culture had
20:56
already taken hold and it would be
20:58
extremely difficult to break to the
21:02
officers upon whom he would have to rely
21:04
to alter that military culture came from
21:06
the same communities and to a great
21:08
extent the same backgrounds as their
21:10
enlisted men those officers shared the
21:13
same values in civil life and brought
21:15
them into the army and third new
21:18
recruits and furloughed troops revived
21:21
that sentiment by coming from civil life
21:23
back into the Army and so they left
21:26
steady reminders of what that culture
21:27
everyone left behind was all about that
21:31
however didn’t stop Lee from trying
21:33
after Antietam in September 1862 he’d
21:36
elected he directed his subordinates to
21:39
quote infuse a different spirit among
21:41
our officers and to inspire them in
21:43
making every necessary effort to bring
21:46
about a better state of discipline they
21:48
must impress men and officers with the
21:52
importance of a change necessary to the
21:54
preservation of this army and it’s
21:56
successful accomplishment of its mission
21:58
as it’s better discipline greater
22:01
mobility and higher inspirations must
22:03
counterbalance the many advantages over
22:06
us both in numbers and materiel which
22:09
the enemy possess end quote but those
22:12
who were expected to inculcate
22:14
discipline the officer corps had
22:16
suffered very heavy losses over the
22:19
entire war almost a quarter of all
22:22
officers in Lee’s army were killed in
22:25
action and one of every two officers was
22:29
either killed in action or was wounded
22:32
in action and wounded at least once many
22:36
multiple times
22:37
officers were more than twice as likely
22:40
to be killed in battle than were
22:41
enlisted men and more than one and a
22:43
half times as likely to be wounded in
22:46
battle from the seven days through
22:48
Antietam that’s the late June to mid mid
22:52
to late September 600 officers were
22:55
killed and 2,000 officers were wounded
23:00
from Antietam through the summer of 1864
23:04
another 1,000 officers were killed and
23:08
4,000 officers were wounded so from the
23:11
day we took command until mid 1864 1600
23:17
officers were killed in action and over
23:20
6,000 were wounded in action the
23:23
Confederacy of course had a finite
23:26
number of quality officers and the
23:28
staggering number impaired its ability
23:31
to train and discipline the troops what
23:35
our officers most lack is the pains and
23:37
labor of inculcating discipline Lee
23:39
complained to Davis in mid 1864 it’s a
23:42
painful and tedious process and is not
23:45
apt to win favor Lee believed his
23:48
enlisted men lacked discipline and the
23:50
officers cannot instill it in them
23:52
because they lacked discipline as well
23:54
as one inspector explained to
23:58
Confederate headquarters the extensive
23:59
fighting stripped away quote the best
24:02
and most efficient men in each command
24:04
and in too many companies there is not
24:06
material left out of which to make
24:08
company commanders end quote
24:11
yet there was little the Confederacy
24:13
could do if there was any consolation at
24:15
least these replacements were as Major
24:17
General George Pickett argued quote
24:19
Galit gallant and meritorious in action
24:23
end quote and the soldiers trusted them
24:25
to lead them in battle even worse supply
24:29
and transportation problems became so
24:32
severe that soldiers had to take matters
24:33
into their own hands young people
24:36
as we know can each staggering
24:39
quantities of food and quality is not
24:42
always a priority but these soldiers did
24:46
not know how to cook and were
24:47
unaccustomed to such bad food
24:49
a Georgia private grumbled of eating
24:51
biscuits so hard quote I could knock a
24:53
bowl down with one end quote I like this
24:56
guy the soldier has a perfect name his
24:58
name is bacon and he’s trying to bake
25:00
bread the first time I made up dough I
25:03
had a mess of it stuck to my hands I can
25:05
just envision him trying to swing his
25:06
hand to get it all stuck to my hands and
25:08
I could hardly get it off then I tried
25:10
to bake it but I could not get it done
25:12
some was burnt up in some was raw what a
25:15
mess I had my favorite story though a
25:18
soldiers who stole what they thought was
25:21
a tub of lard but in fact it was
25:24
actually tallow for candles and they
25:26
baked the biscuits and somebody came by
25:28
and said that wasn’t lard that’s tallow
25:30
one of the guys in the mess decided to
25:32
try the biscuits out anyway and he said
25:35
pronounce them good and tried to
25:36
convince his fellow soldiers to eat them
25:38
but they wouldn’t have any of it that
25:43
was early in the war then shortages
25:45
kicked in in an average year before the
25:48
war 800,000 to 1 million bushels of
25:51
wheat were shipped into Richmond in 1862
25:54
even though the city’s population had
25:56
doubled and on top of that you had the
25:59
army ranging in between 70 and 80
26:01
thousand men only 250,000 to 300,000
26:05
bushels of wheat arrived by mid January
26:09
1863 the army supply of cattle had
26:11
dwindled down to enough to last through
26:14
the end of the month only and those that
26:16
they had had becomes skinny as a result
26:19
of the winter regarding the other meat
26:22
pork the standard joke in the army was
26:24
that the bacon quote outranks General
26:26
Lee unquote in late April early May 1863
26:30
rations for a single day had to be
26:33
stretched out over three by early
26:36
January 1864 Davis admitted that the
26:39
army issued 1/4 of a pound of meat per
26:42
man per day and Lee only had one more
26:45
day’s issue on hand can you imagine
26:48
trying to run
26:50
armie when you only have food enough for
26:52
the next day it’s incredible when the
26:56
Yankees quipped that the Confederates
26:58
had a new general general starvation
27:00
they wanted very far off the mark that
27:04
was supposed to be funny has got a limit
27:06
lighten up here people I know this is a
27:08
tough subject for many of you
27:09
southerners but this you got a lighten
27:11
up here with shortages soldiers took
27:15
matters into their own hands on the
27:17
marcher encamped troops regularly
27:19
purchased and then later on swiped food
27:21
from locals by late 1863 though there
27:23
was nothing left to swipe instead they
27:26
turned on their government as an Alabama
27:28
private asserted hunger will drive a man
27:31
to anything you may depend the
27:33
Confederate government admitted that in
27:35
1863 alone six hundred and seventeen
27:38
thousand pounds of bacon alone were
27:41
stolen the commissary of subsistence in
27:45
January 1864 confessed quote every
27:48
shipment of meat is robbed of from eight
27:50
to fifteen hundred pounds end quote
27:54
to combat the practice the Confederacy
27:57
had to place guards on all the trains
27:59
with orders to shoot people on the spot
28:03
we tried to solve the food problem as a
28:06
solution and get loaded this is quite a
28:08
revolutionary proposal Lee suggested an
28:11
alteration of priorities and civilian
28:15
consumption habits soldiers in the field
28:18
should become the nation’s top priority
28:21
quote if it requires all the meat in the
28:23
country to support the army it should be
28:25
had and I believe this could be
28:27
accomplished by not only showing its
28:29
necessity but that all equally
28:31
contributed if the government could
28:33
convince the public to consume
28:35
foodstuffs that quote cannot be so well
28:38
used by the troops in the field end
28:40
quote it would save other eatables for
28:42
his men that’s pretty revolutionary
28:44
calling for a change in consumption
28:47
practices clothing clothing of course is
28:50
a big problem in the army many of the
28:51
guys came in with their Sunday best and
28:53
they quickly wore out
28:54
one soldier grumbled about his pants
28:56
that were a quote more holy than
28:58
righteous and quote
29:00
and of course soldiers had shortages of
29:03
coats hats pins etc but shoes with a
29:07
single biggest problem replacement items
29:10
were often poor in quality for example
29:12
in one shipment Lee’s army got 10,000
29:14
pairs of shoes and over 3,000 of them
29:16
were absolutely unusable and had to be
29:19
sent back Lee’s solution to the problem
29:21
he located 271 pre-war shoe makers in
29:25
his ranks and pulled them out of the
29:27
ranks and made them make shoes during
29:29
all the months when the servant when
29:32
they weren’t in active duty that was not
29:34
enough soldiers accustomed to solving
29:37
problems themselves took matters into
29:39
their own hands early on they had
29:41
plundered on the battlefields for money
29:43
and valuables weapons and mementos by
29:46
late 1862 they had no choice but to
29:49
plunder for food and clothing as the
29:51
cold weather approached once again and
29:53
soldiers hoped for a battle so that they
29:56
could clothe themselves properly that
29:59
winter the majority of the troops are
30:02
eager for a fight when officer wrote his
30:04
father the battlefield is the greatest
30:06
storehouse of winter equipments and
30:07
pocket money and our boys have a
30:09
penchant for both end quote
30:11
a Virginia private concurred
30:14
semi-literate I have rather been in
30:16
hopes that if they were going to fight
30:18
it all that it would come off or I want
30:20
some overcoat and blankets if our men
30:23
whipped them I would stand a good chance
30:25
to get some he explained so what they
30:27
needed to do was defeat the Union and
30:30
control the battlefield so they could
30:32
strip the Union soldiers of the clothing
30:33
so they’d have clothing and blankets for
30:35
the winter
30:37
of course if soldiers are being fed
30:39
poorly you can imagine how badly the
30:41
animals were being fed the artillery by
30:43
spring of 1862 was already short 1,200
30:47
horses if they had them they probably
30:49
couldn’t offend them though by early
30:51
1863 Lee directed subordinates to feed
30:54
their animals on twigs and bark from
30:56
poplars maples and sweet gums in the
30:59
latter part of 1863 we had to reduce the
31:02
number of guns in his artillery because
31:05
he could not feed the animals in
31:07
November 1863 he complained to Davis
31:10
quote no corn was received here on the
31:13
21st and
31:14
and on the 22nd and 24th about five
31:17
pounds per horse that average is of
31:20
course two and a half pounds per animal
31:22
per day the Union fed its animals
31:25
between 23 and 26 pounds per day in the
31:31
course of one 40 day period without any
31:34
campaigning a cavalry Brigade increased
31:37
its dismounted men from 292 to 681 due
31:42
to food shortfalls prior to secession
31:47
the southern states had developed a
31:48
transportation network that service
31:50
distant markets predominantly with non
31:52
perishable goods such as cotton tobacco
31:54
and sugar with few exceptions most
31:57
perishable products came locally by the
32:00
winter of 1860 to 63 the Confederacy had
32:03
so overused its rail system in Virginia
32:06
that was becoming increasingly
32:08
unreliable at the time Lee’s army was
32:11
was occupying a position on the southern
32:13
bank of the Rappahannock River near
32:15
Fredericksburg the Richmond
32:17
Fredericksburg and Potomac railroad ran
32:19
there but it was not designed to carry
32:21
Freight just passengers that left the
32:24
Virginia Central probably the most
32:26
important railroad in the state as the
32:28
only viable alternative now the Virginia
32:31
central intersected with Richmond
32:33
Fredericksburg and the Potomac at
32:34
Hanover Junction and from there it went
32:37
all the way up into the Shenandoah
32:39
Valley which of course is the richest
32:41
region for food production in the state
32:43
workers could then unload supplies at
32:46
Hanover Junction put them on wagons and
32:48
cover the 35 miles to the army but of
32:51
course that became more problematic in
32:53
the wintertime when the roads converted
32:56
into mud even worse it resulted in the
33:00
badly over you in a bad overuse of this
33:03
Virginia Central Railroad its tracks had
33:06
declined significantly in just two years
33:08
of war due to the overuse and a lack of
33:11
repairs it’s quote efficiency is most
33:14
seriously impaired end quote so the
33:17
railroad president informed Davis in
33:19
mid-march 1863 the line suffered for
33:22
derailment in a five-day period to
33:26
reduce derailments the Confederacy
33:28
had to cut the weight in each car by 25%
33:31
and then slow down the speed of the
33:34
Train Li solution by early 1864 li
33:38
sought the suspension of all rail travel
33:41
except on government business with the
33:44
space designated for use in supplying
33:47
the army
33:47
in addition quote this is pretty
33:50
revolutionary all the population whose
33:53
presence would impede or endanger our
33:55
efforts should be removed especially
33:58
that part of it
33:59
which increases the consumption of
34:01
public stores without aiding or
34:03
strengthening the army he wants to
34:05
depopulate Richmond fewer mouths food
34:09
goes farther he wanted prisoners
34:11
parolees federal deserters and
34:13
unemployed person to remove from the
34:15
city and quote every encouragement given
34:18
to the rest of the non-combatant
34:20
population to retire except those whose
34:23
services may be useful or who will not
34:26
increase the scarcity of supplies end
34:28
quote
34:29
if the individual didn’t contribute
34:32
directly to the war effort through
34:33
military or government service
34:35
production direct labor or
34:37
transportation the government needed to
34:39
urge them to leave the richmond area to
34:42
conserve supplies for the troops as the
34:46
confederate margin for error winnowed
34:48
and the in the area of supply and
34:49
transportation it declined in manpower
34:51
as well effective implementation of
34:54
Davis’s strategy was extremely costly
34:57
for of every 10 soldiers in lee’s army
35:00
was either killed or wounded and five of
35:03
every nine soldiers who ever served in
35:05
lee’s army was either killed wounded or
35:07
captured once prior to the surrender at
35:11
Appomattox one in 16 suffered multiple
35:16
wounds and another one in ten were
35:18
wounded and also captured by factoring
35:24
in those who died of disease and
35:26
accidents or who were discharged for
35:28
disabilities almost three of every salt
35:31
for soldiers who ever served in the Army
35:34
of Northern Virginia were either killed
35:36
died of disease were wounded at least
35:39
once were captured at least one
35:41
or were discharged for a disability
35:44
that’s unbelievable when you factor out
35:49
those who deserted the army permanently
35:52
the percentage of casualties rises to
35:55
80% not only did these terrible losses
36:00
damage the army but they also hurt
36:02
morale even in the face of resounding
36:04
triumphs casualties cut to the core of
36:07
wartime support let me give you a great
36:09
example the state of North Carolina
36:11
which narrowly embrace secession what
36:15
fueled the fires of disaffection more
36:17
than anything in North Carolina with the
36:19
tremendous casualties among North
36:21
Carolinians in Lee’s army now listen to
36:24
these statistics because they’re
36:25
unbelievable behind the provost state of
36:28
Virginia North Carolina sent the most
36:30
troops to Lee’s Army in the spring of
36:32
1863 at Chancellorsville three of every
36:37
ten North Carolinians in Lee’s army was
36:40
killed wounded or captured that was but
36:43
by far the greatest total and the
36:45
greatest percentage of any state in
36:48
Lee’s army the seven highest totals of
36:51
killed and wounded fell to North
36:53
Carolina regiments two months later at
36:57
Gettysburg after the army had received
37:00
two huge brigades of North Carolinians
37:05
46.4% of all North Carolinians were
37:08
killed wounded or captured that’s almost
37:10
half the top four regimental casualty
37:14
figures and six of the seven highest
37:17
occurred in North Carolina regiments at
37:19
Gettysburg North Carolina lost 1782 more
37:25
men than the next highest state Virginia
37:27
that 1782 amounted to more casualties
37:32
than eight Confederate states suffered
37:35
in the Battle of Gettysburg then to
37:39
worsen the discrepancy at the Battle of
37:41
Bristow station in October 1863 almost
37:44
every single casualty in the battle was
37:47
a North Carolinian and again another 10%
37:50
of all North Carolinians and Lee’s army
37:52
so while it’s difficult to ascertain
37:55
precision a reasonable calculation over
37:58
a five and a half month period indicates
38:02
that seven of every North 10 North
38:04
Carolinians in Lee’s Army was either
38:06
killed wounded or captured in that
38:08
period the impact of those losses in the
38:13
most successful and visible Confederate
38:15
field command the Army of Northern
38:16
Virginia on the North Carolina home
38:19
front was devastating and coincided
38:21
precisely with the rising disaffection
38:24
in that state to compensate for
38:27
productivity decline associated with
38:30
manpower loss to the army Confederates
38:32
relied on blacks who proved increasingly
38:34
undependable as the war went on more and
38:38
more they slowed down work ran off to
38:40
the Yankees and caused general uneasy
38:42
uneasiness among the population that
38:44
remained at home the situation was so
38:47
severe that by 1864 the former governor
38:51
of Virginia General Henry wise told a
38:54
family friend that quote slavery is a
38:58
dead issue here in Virginia end quote
39:01
regardless of who won the civil war in
39:05
other words even if the Confederacy want
39:07
one you could never maintain slavery in
39:10
Virginia again attrition wore down
39:15
Confederates as we tried desperately to
39:18
increase manpower he notified the
39:20
Secretary of War in January 1863 that
39:23
they needed every man and he asked the
39:25
secretary to call on governor’s to
39:29
appeal to their constituents to fill the
39:31
ranks using quote shame against those
39:35
who will not heed the dictates of honor
39:37
and of patriotism
39:38
end quote in one instance Lee found
39:41
himself under arrest I’ll bet most of
39:43
you need to know that Robert Ely was a
39:44
had an order issued for his arrest what
39:48
happened was the Secretary of War
39:49
ordered two privates to come to Richmond
39:51
to act as clerks and Lee did know who
39:54
issued the order but immediately
39:55
overturned the order and directed the
39:57
guys to go back and be rifle toters
39:59
again when the Secretary of War found
40:01
out he ordered Lee to be arrested that’s
40:05
kind of a funny concept imagine Leonor
40:08
under arrest of course we explained
40:09
situation in guess what the Secretary of
40:12
War rescinded his order the men’s state
40:14
as his rifle toters so we even won the
40:17
battle the grind of the 1864 campaign
40:21
took its toll on Lee’s army after two
40:24
weeks of fighting in May 1864 Lee had
40:28
six generals killed sick nine generals
40:31
wounded and three generals captured by
40:33
the end of May one corps commander
40:36
Longstreet was wounded James Longstreet
40:39
that is another Corps commander Richard
40:41
Ewell had collapsed from exhaustion a
40:43
third Corps commander ap Hill had a
40:45
flare flare up of his old illness
40:48
prostatitis as a result of a youthful
40:51
indiscretion and then Stewart of course
40:55
his cavalry commander was killed Lee
40:57
suffered from dysentery and which he get
40:59
this I got when I found this out found
41:01
this in in the medical army medical
41:04
directors report Lee did not get more
41:07
than two consecutive hours of sleep for
41:11
a three week period now Lee is 59 years
41:16
of age was he born in 1850
41:20
it’s about 56 years of age that’s all
41:23
that’s not very much sleep and of course
41:25
he’s sleeping on a rack and a torte have
41:28
you ever seen it Museum of the
41:29
Confederacy has has leaves caught it’s
41:32
more like a torture rack by early June
41:37
1864 the campaign locked into trench
41:40
warfare with all the harsh conditions
41:42
that entailed from September 1862
41:45
through July 1864 the hospitals in
41:49
Virginia had admitted almost four
41:51
hundred and thirteen thousand soldiers
41:53
as patients due to illness or injury
41:55
during the three months of May June and
41:58
July 1864 those hospitals admitted one
42:02
hundred and two thousand soldiers alone
42:06
now even if every soldier was
42:09
transferred from one hospital to a
42:11
second one
42:12
that means 51,000 soldiers in a
42:15
three-month period were sent to the
42:18
hospital
42:19
that’s incredible in it
42:22
nor could lee effectively replace those
42:24
who went down he had squeezed everyone
42:26
he could in uniform back into the ranks
42:29
and conscription had augmented his
42:31
numbers too as the army passed by
42:33
communities his corps commanders had
42:35
orders to conscript any male who
42:38
appeared physically able incidentally
42:42
and and by the late stage of the war I
42:45
would say one in every eight soldiers
42:46
and Lee’s army was a conscript but I
42:49
want to mention this because this plays
42:51
into the 15 slave law in Virginia only
42:55
2% of all exemptions from conscription
42:58
were given to people under the 15 slave
43:00
law to put it in context four times as
43:04
many farmers railroad workers and
43:08
Millers received exemptions five times
43:11
as many shoemakers and government
43:14
officials received exemptions even
43:17
doctors and clergymen received twice as
43:20
many exemptions as slave holders on the
43:23
15 slave law by the end of 1864 the
43:28
bureau of conscription decreed that
43:30
there were no more conscripts to tap
43:32
except 16 year-olds who were coming of
43:36
age in the next year in Virginia that
43:39
amounted to the precise number of 2719
43:45
in fact the Confederacy just doesn’t
43:47
have the manpower anymore the strain of
43:49
war proved almost unbearable one brigade
43:52
of 1187 privates for example had to
43:56
defend 2,401 yards of works and two
44:01
thousand three hundred yards of picket
44:03
area every day the Union was able to
44:07
rotate troops from the trenches back the
44:10
Confederacy didn’t have that luxury by
44:12
1864 food for man and beast became more
44:15
and more scarce combat had discouraged
44:18
farmers from planting in the Shenandoah
44:19
Valley as far south as Bunker Hill and a
44:22
drought had devastated the corn crop
44:24
between Stanton and Newmarket reducing
44:27
corn production to one-third its usual
44:30
harvest animals got between two and a
44:32
half and five pounds of feed per day and
44:35
it was no
44:36
better for humans in one instance
44:38
cavalry commander Wade Hampton see seas
44:41
2500 head of cattle from the Federals
44:43
that gave the Confederate Army enough
44:46
meat for a month but other than that as
44:48
the winter came on the situation proved
44:51
bleak soldiers seldom received more than
44:54
a pound of cornmeal and a quarter pound
44:56
of beef per day by 1865 the commissary
45:00
could not sustain even that meager
45:02
bounty often 1/4 pound of beef and
45:06
either a pound of bread or 3/4 pound of
45:09
corn meal per day was issued that
45:11
equaled 900 to 1,200 calories per day
45:15
the US Army feeds its soldiers in the
45:19
combat environment 4000 calories a day
45:22
because that’s what the army feels is
45:24
essential to maintain muscle mass and
45:27
body weight not put on weight just to
45:29
maintain existing weight these guys are
45:31
living on 900 to 1,200 calories a day
45:35
that’s like two hours at the at the
45:38
local pub for most undergraduate
45:40
students many days the government could
45:45
supply troops with either meat or the
45:47
starch but not both the government
45:50
diverted corn intended to go to horses
45:52
for their soldiers the corn had
45:54
contained dried leaves and stalks from
45:57
the corn plant roughage that the that
46:00
the animals would find nutritious but of
46:02
course the soldiers found it unpalatable
46:04
supplies from everywhere came at a
46:07
glacial pace we had to draw a supplies
46:10
from as far away as Georgia taxing the
46:12
rail lines even more one line was so bad
46:15
the trains averaged one mile per hour
46:20
once Sherman began his advance through
46:23
Georgia and then South Carolina he cut
46:25
off those areas from food access and so
46:28
Lee’s area from which he could drawn was
46:31
shrinking more and more but it was not
46:33
until the combination of Lincoln’s
46:35
reelection Sherman’s march that
46:37
desertion began to truly soar in 1865 it
46:41
got worse and worse little clothing
46:44
little food too little rest and too much
46:47
work sapped soldiers
46:49
their motivation to fight good soldiers
46:52
tried soldiers began to lose faith and
46:54
desert men who had fought well in
46:56
literally dozens of battles those final
46:59
weeks were awful for men in Lee’s army
47:01
over the course of February and March
47:03
Lee’s army lost on average about 120 men
47:06
to desertion every day that’s comparable
47:10
to an infantry brigade present for duty
47:13
every 10 days just a desertion others
47:17
held on on the retreat from Richmond the
47:20
Richmond Petersburg line westward their
47:22
physical deterioration from poor
47:24
condition prevented thousands from
47:26
keeping up on my previous campaigns
47:29
where soldiers purposely straggled many
47:32
just could not stay up on the March 4
47:35
months Lee’s army lived on a diet that
47:37
lacked half the necessary protein to
47:40
maintain muscle mass and provided less
47:43
than two-thirds the necessary calories
47:45
to sustain body mass the diet by that by
47:49
this point largely down to a quarter
47:51
pound of beef and two pints of cornmeal
47:53
and occasional small amounts of molasses
47:56
was woefully deficient in most vitamins
47:59
resulting in weakness and absorption
48:01
problems of protein minerals and
48:03
vitamins with soldiers suffering skin
48:06
ailments night blindness anemia scurvy
48:08
and diarrhea in other words they weren’t
48:11
taking in enough good nutrition to break
48:14
down the food that they were actually
48:15
eating in a telling assessment doctor JW
48:20
Powell medical director for the Third
48:21
Corps commented on the Corps inspection
48:24
report in February quote while there was
48:27
not much well I’m sorry
48:29
while there was not found’ much absolute
48:32
sickness existing there were many weak
48:35
and feeble men who cannot be relied upon
48:38
to undergo any great physical exertions
48:41
end quote although Lee wants more a call
48:44
for discipline and reminded them a
48:46
patriotism he could get nothing more
48:48
from many of his troops pressed by
48:51
Federals Lee had to push his men hard on
48:54
the retreat thousands dropped out of the
48:56
March some falling into Yankee hands
48:58
others slowly working their way home
49:00
because they liked the stamina
49:02
to keep up for four long years this army
49:05
had battled overwhelming federal
49:07
manpower and resources brilliantly close
49:10
to 30,000 of them fell in combat and
49:13
more than 125,000 suffered wounds but
49:17
punished the Yankees they did Lee’s army
49:20
inflicted 45% of all the Union soldiers
49:24
killed and 45% of all the Union soldiers
49:27
wounded in the entire war in the last
49:32
year of the war despite the decline in
49:35
Lee’s Army grants forces sustained some
49:39
127 thousand casualties that’s almost as
49:45
many casualties as the Army of Northern
49:47
Virginia suffered for four years of war
49:49
in general order number nine a farewell
49:54
to his troops Lee stated that they had
49:56
been quote compelled to yield to
49:58
overwhelming numbers and resources end
50:00
quote to President Davis 10 years later
50:02
he told something different he blamed
50:04
the quote moral condition of the army
50:06
for defeat quote the operations which
50:10
occurred while the troops were in the
50:12
entrenchments in front of Richmond and
50:13
Petersburg would not marked by the
50:15
boldness and decision which formally
50:17
characterized them except in particular
50:19
instances they were feeble and a want of
50:22
confidence seemed to possess officers
50:24
and men this condition I think was
50:27
produced by the state of feeling in the
50:29
country and the GB and the
50:31
communications received by the men from
50:34
their homes urging their return and the
50:37
abandonment of the field end quote
50:39
both were correct the rebels confronted
50:42
vast Union superiority and over the
50:44
course of four years of war it wore down
50:47
the Confederacy ultimately the Army of
50:51
Northern Virginia did not collapse
50:52
because of southern culture industry
50:56
agriculture slavery motivations manpower
50:59
shortages discontent at home or any
51:02
other solitary factor intense and
51:05
sustained Union pressure caused serious
51:08
fissures in all these areas winnowing
51:11
away that margin for error and cutting
51:13
into muscle and bone collectively
51:14
bringing down the
51:16
and the entire Confederacy four long
51:20
years of war damaged or disrupted
51:22
virtually every aspect of Confederate
51:25
life
51:25
the demoralisation to which Lee referred
51:29
was a consequence of all these problems
51:31
not a cause let me conclude by telling
51:35
you a little story about private Thomas
51:37
Petty a native of Virginia and a pre-war
51:39
clerk in Washington DC he lost some
51:42
friends over the Secession issue he
51:44
joined the Confederate Army and in a
51:46
warm July night 1861 he was gazing up to
51:49
the sky and saw a comet rocketing
51:51
through the sky the next day he read in
51:53
the new Richmond newspapers that no one
51:55
had anticipated the comet he wondered
51:59
what it meant
52:00
perhaps it portends refer shadows the
52:03
speedy acknowledgment of our Confederate
52:05
States independence he pondered and by a
52:08
sudden apparition typifies the
52:10
Confederate States which is coming to
52:11
the host of nations like the comet
52:13
blazing gloriously in quote petit was
52:18
wrong about independence but correct
52:19
about the comet as a metaphor in the
52:22
grandeur of time the Army of Northern
52:23
Virginia might the Confederate States of
52:25
America was a short-lived shooting star
52:28
it appeared as a powerful illumination
52:31
and quickly passed into darkness perhaps
52:34
200,000 or more men stepped into its
52:36
ranks throughout the course of the war
52:38
undermanned underfed poorly clothed and
52:41
inadequately equipped the Army of
52:43
Northern Virginia kept a significantly
52:45
larger and better resource Union Army at
52:47
bay for almost four years its success
52:51
was so great that in the minds of
52:53
northerners and southerners alike it
52:55
came to symbolize the viability of the
52:58
Confederate states its commander was
53:01
perceived by many as a general superior
53:04
to all including Napoleon himself the
53:08
combination of Lee and his army have
53:11
left an indelible mark on the landscape
53:13
and the psyche of the American nation
53:15
far beyond its four years even today
53:19
many decades after its last veteran has
53:21
passed away Lee’s army continues to live
53:24
in the imagination of the American
53:26
public not so much for what it
53:29
represents
53:29
but for what it accomplished on the
53:31
field of battle under the most difficult
53:34
conditions and circumstances thank you
53:37
very much
53:47
question

Why the Confederacy Lost: The Experiences of Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia

Transcript

00:07
thank you very much I’m really delighted
00:09
to be here let’s hope you still have
00:13
that same commitment to applause when
00:15
the talks over when Jefferson Davis
00:22
became president of the Confederate
00:23
States of America it was apparent to him
00:25
that a war was going to occur and Davis
00:28
formulated the Confederate strategy the
00:31
strategy was simple to punish the
00:33
invaders the objective was to discourage
00:37
future attacks and also to convince the
00:40
northern public that future attacks
00:43
would be futile and that military
00:46
efforts to reconquer the Confederate
00:48
States would fail one of the most
00:52
celebrated officers in the Confederacy
00:53
Edward Porter Alexander explained the
00:57
Confederacy hoped quote that the
00:59
desperation of her resistance would
01:01
finally exact from her adversary such a
01:04
price in blood and treasure as to
01:07
exhaust the enthusiasm of its population
01:09
for the objects of war Davis wanted his
01:21
subordinate generals to strike the enemy
01:24
as close to the borders as possible as
01:27
Davis explained to one general officer
01:29
resist invasion as far as may be
01:32
practicable and repel the invaders
01:34
whenever and however it may be done
01:36
because citizens and soldiers lived
01:40
along avenues of invasion Davis believed
01:43
the Confederacy could not yield
01:45
territory unless it was absolutely
01:46
necessary quote the evacuation of any
01:50
portion of territory involves not only
01:52
the loss of supplies but in every
01:55
instance has been attended by a greater
01:57
or less loss of troops end quote now
02:01
every strategy has its flaws
02:03
particularly one against an enemy that
02:06
has superiority and manpower and
02:08
resources those nations such as the
02:11
Confederacy with inferior resources in
02:14
manpower can compensate by developing a
02:17
sound strategy and utilizing resources
02:19
more efficiently
02:20
we also by tapping soldiers and
02:23
civilians commitment to the cause and
02:25
requiring them to endure more hardships
02:28
than their enemy but the fact remains
02:30
they have a limited margin for error as
02:34
that margin for error is stripped away
02:36
the demands of war cutting to the sinew
02:39
and bone of the war effort
02:41
breaking down institutions and morale
02:44
and inflicting ever-increasing hardship
02:46
for the Confederate States of America
02:48
there would be enormous hardship
02:51
sacrifices and tragedies the war would
02:53
stretch manpower and resources to the
02:55
breaking point and they would incur
02:58
heavy losses delivering powerful blows
03:01
against the enemy nonetheless Davis
03:04
believed the Confederate people could
03:05
endure any sacrifice for freedom and
03:08
independence we will do all that can be
03:11
done by plucking muscle endurance and
03:13
dogged courage
03:14
– and red-hot patriotism Davis claimed
03:18
no Confederate Army fulfilled that
03:21
strategy like the Army of Northern
03:23
Virginia yet even it wore down in the
03:26
face of two then three and finally four
03:28
years of fighting against those
03:30
overwhelming odds the margin for error
03:34
dwindled and ultimately disintegrated
03:37
fissures appeared in every institution
03:39
in every facet of life including the
03:42
Army of Northern Virginia and despite
03:44
its efforts it too was ultimately
03:47
overcome now the Army of Northern
03:49
Virginia had to utilize manpower and
03:51
resources effectively but the two early
03:54
commanders Pierre Gustav Teuton
03:57
Beauregard and Joseph E Johnston
04:00
established ineffective precedents and
04:03
policies three times those officers
04:07
abandoned position one in Harpers Ferry
04:10
another in Northern Virginia and a third
04:12
at the Manassas Centreville axis the
04:15
result was massive destruction that not
04:18
only affected the Confederacy’s ability
04:20
to prosecute the war after all the
04:22
resources were precious but it also sent
04:25
the wrong message to troops the
04:27
destruction helped establish aspects of
04:30
the military culture that encouraged in
04:32
discipline in the
04:34
and that paid little credence to the
04:36
preservation of valuable resources which
04:39
in turn reduced the Confederate margin
04:41
for error now every organization has a
04:45
culture and the Army of Northern
04:46
Virginia was no different army culture
04:50
derives from two areas elements that
04:53
individuals bring into the military from
04:56
civil life and military experiences in
04:59
training normally boot camp tears down
05:03
and rebuilds so that the military
05:05
culture flows from the top down but with
05:08
no such experience and because officers
05:11
largely came from home we’re learning on
05:14
the job and failed to rigorously
05:16
discipline their men the culture tended
05:19
to flow from the bottom up at the core
05:23
virtually all these citizen soldiers
05:25
share the same fundamental beliefs in
05:28
the rightness of secession and slavery
05:30
from society they inherited Southern
05:33
Honor an overarching concept that
05:36
embraced powerful perceptions of manhood
05:39
integrity independence valor kinship and
05:43
esteem and among the elite both luxury
05:47
and generosity in times of war a
05:50
wholehearted allegiance to the spirit of
05:52
Honor would serve its soldiers well but
southern society also promoted certain
qualities that did not benefit the
Confederate natio
n in a war against the
better resourced Union a lack of
discipline and particularly among the
well-to-do a spirit of prophecy and
self-indulgence were acceptable modes of
conduct before the war closely related
to one another these three behaviors
elevated the individual over the group
and tolerated conduct and uniform that
was not conducive to effective military
service more than a simply a spirit of
individualism which the army could
harness and convert to military purposes
these qualities diminished the
usefulness of the soldier in the pre-war
South an individual who squandered money
recklessly was not necessarily scorned

in some circles he earned prey
days by distinguish himself from his
penurious materialistic northern
countrymen southerners particularly
males aspired to fulfill their every
impulse and desire and society tolerated
often encouraged such indulgence

attention to administrative detail and
other mundane matters were beneath many
of them undisciplined conduct and open
expression of passion or a ready resort
to violence was not necessarily
considered unbecoming in the pre-war
South
after all to adhere to a code of
discipline meant that others impose
their will on the individual such
dominance of the individual smacked of
slavery and southern whites were
extremely sensitive to it even in the
realm of laws and codes of moral conduct

outhern males abided by them
voluntarily not out of compunction if
society compelled them to obey then it
dominated the individual and deprived
him of his manhood and no
self-respecting white southerner could
endure that these qualities made them
wonderful motivated soldiers but they
also promoted the resistance to
discipline which in turn was the key to
effective utilization of limited
resources
now the Battle of Seven Pines on May
08:09
31st 1862 Joseph e Johnston was badly
08:12
wounded and Jefferson Davis assigned
08:16
robert e lee quote/unquote temporarily
08:19
to be commander of that army when lee
08:22
stepped into that position he confronted
08:24
two huge problems one the obvious one
08:27
Union forces were literally at the gates
08:29
of Richmond they were three miles
08:31
outside of Richmond and the second one
08:33
was that there were administrative and
08:35
discipline problems in the army staff
08:39
officers practice sloppy paperwork
08:42
procedures and soldiers failed to
08:44
conserve and as a result troops went
08:46
without and suffered I remember one
08:48
instance where troops literally outside
08:50
of Richmond had to trap rats soak them
08:53
in water overnight and then fry them for
08:55
food that doesn’t appeal to me perhaps
08:58
your dietary practices or otherwise
09:01
and of course these practices also
09:05
encouraged undisciplined behavior
09:07
because soldiers coming from American
09:10
society were problem solvers if they
09:12
didn’t get fed by the army they were
09:14
going to solve the problem themselves
09:15
which means that they were going to take
09:17
from civilians now when Lee stepped in
09:20
he had a great reputation of course you
09:23
probably know this Lee graduated second
09:25
in his class at the United States
09:27
Military Academy he graduated without
09:28
receiving any demerits he was one of
09:30
several of his class who did so and of
09:33
course he emerged from the Mexican War
09:35
as Tim Johnson will say as Winfield
09:38
Scott’s favorite Winfield Scott said in
09:40
testimony that he thought Robert Ely was
09:42
the finest soldier in the US Army yet
09:46
within certain circles there was an
09:47
undercurrent of doubt about Lee by May
09:50
1861 after exposure to Lee over the six
09:53
previous years Edmund Kirby Smith had
09:56
come to the conclusion that Lee lacked
09:58
ability for large-scale command
10:01
describing his selection to head
10:02
Virginia forces as quote unfortunate
10:05
unquote Smith like numerous others was
10:08
put off by Lee slowness to come to a
10:10
decision
10:11
Sam Melton who served on Brigadier
10:14
General millage L bottom staff and had a
10:16
very fair favorable opinion of Lee I
10:18
might add informed his wife in May 1861
10:22
that Lee quote is a splendid officer
10:24
slow too slow but thoroughly
10:26
accomplished
10:27
end quote in a letter that has become
10:30
almost famous for its miss reading of
10:32
the man South Carolina Governor Francis
10:36
W Pickens announced a bonham just before
10:39
the Battle of first Manassas quote the
10:41
truth is Lee is not with us at heart or
10:44
he is a common man with good looks and
10:46
too cautious for practical revolution
10:49
end quote
10:50
be careful what you write because it may
10:52
be saved and you’ll look like an idiot I
10:55
mean this will go this is really the
10:57
most representative document we have of
10:59
Francis W Pickens I’m sure he did other
11:02
things some things right in this
11:04
instance he sort of missed even least
11:07
trusted staff member Walter H Taylor
11:10
complained to his Bradt future bride
11:12
late in the war about Lee’s slowness
11:15
he is too undecided Taylor grumbled
11:17
takes too long to firm his conclusions
11:20
after the first campaign a failure
11:23
amid the rugged terrain of western
11:25
Virginia Lee’s reputation plummeted even
11:28
more fueled by excessively optimistic
11:31
tales in the newspapers as the campaign
11:34
was unfolding soldiers and civilians
11:36
alike reacted to the results of the
11:38
campaign as if Lee had committed some
11:40
monstrous blunder the newspapers and the
11:44
public how old over leaves incompetence
11:47
Edward a power to Richmond newspaperman
11:50
and sharp critic of the Davis
11:51
administration determined quote the most
11:54
remarkable circumstance of this campaign
11:56
was that it was conducted by a general
11:59
who had never fought a battle who had a
12:01
pious horror of guerrillas and whose
12:04
extreme tenderness of blood induced him
12:07
to depend exclusively upon the resources
12:10
of strategy to essay the achievement of
12:13
victories without the cost of life end
12:16
quote
12:17
a student at West Point when Lee was
12:19
superintendent there Ben Alston reported
12:22
to his father that people called Lee a
12:25
dirt dauber a small insect that leaves a
12:29
soil trail in its wake Alexander C
12:33
Haskell a family friend of the Lee’s
12:35
described to his mother a satirical
12:38
sketch he had seen of Lee quote with a
12:40
double-barrel spyglass in one hand and a
12:44
spade in the other reconnoitering in the
12:46
position of the enemy the caption of the
12:48
of the cartoon read quote to retreat a
12:51
little and throw up fortifications the
12:53
instant he sets eyes upon them shooting
12:58
Haskell believed this is unjust to a
13:00
fine officer but it does somewhat
13:03
exhibit his very cautious policy to
13:07
remove Lee from the Richmond spotlight
13:09
Davis sent him to the Department of
13:11
South Carolina Georgia and Florida to
13:13
oversee defenses there a job hardly
13:16
worth the third highest-ranking officer
13:18
in the Confederate Army as the spring of
13:21
1862 approached however Davis brought
13:24
Lee back to Richmond to help him the
13:27
reaction remained hostile
13:28
the appointment of General Lee is chief
13:31
military advisor of the president looks
13:33
like a fatal mistake a member of
13:35
Johnson’s staff wrote his wife B’s quote
13:39
traits of mind unquote would prove more
13:42
problematic than they were the previous
13:44
year he predicted and then he concluded
13:46
with the words may God in mercy protect
13:49
us
13:50
Catherine Edmundston a North Carolinian
13:52
and an unusually perceptive diarist held
13:55
nothing but contempt for Lee he is too
13:59
timid believes too much in master Lee
14:01
inactivity finds his strength too much
14:04
in sitting still even Lee’s counterpart
14:08
on the Union side Major General George B
14:10
McClellan rejoiced when he thought that
14:13
Lee in his new position would replace
14:14
Johnston as the field commander
14:17
I prefer ally to Johnston he elaborated
14:20
to Lincoln
14:21
the former is too cautious and weak
14:23
under grave responsibility personally
14:26
brave and energetic to a fault he yet is
14:29
wanting in moral firmness when pressed
14:32
by heavy responsibilities and is likely
14:34
to be timid and irresolute in action end
14:38
quote we would call that projection
14:44
that’s exactly the way McClellan was to
14:47
a tee getting his job as commander of
14:54
the Virginia forces and then as military
14:56
adviser to the President Lee gained
14:57
great insight into the Confederacy’s
14:59
capacity to make war he fully understood
15:02
that the Confederacy had a limited
15:04
margin for error the Confederate people
15:07
Lee insisted must make up our minds to
15:09
great suffering he then concluded all
15:12
must be sacrificed to the country as
15:15
army commander Lee began immediately to
15:18
institute changes one of the first
15:20
things he did in special orders number
15:22
22 June 1st 1862 he referred to it as
15:25
the Army of Northern Virginia other
15:28
people had called it that at times but
15:30
the name never stuck and once Lee did
15:33
and he announced that his headquarters
15:35
was part of the department of Northern
15:37
Virginia then the name Army of Northern
15:39
Virginia became fixed with
15:42
li and that body of soldiers he
15:44
established and enforced routines for
15:46
the distribution of provisions and
15:48
required division commanders to
15:50
scrutinize requisitions of subordinates
15:53
as I mentioned Johnson’s staff was
15:55
pretty inept at administering and then
15:58
the galacon neglect in paperwork meant
16:01
that soldiers didn’t get provided for
16:03
with supplies li circulated directives
16:07
to all officers to pay attention to the
16:10
quote health and comfort of the men
16:12
under command and spare unnecessary
16:14
exposure and fatigue so that everyone
16:17
was ready for battle in one of Richard’s
16:19
favorite moments Lee even authorized the
16:23
distribution of whiskey rations at the
16:25
discretion of officers quote when deemed
16:28
essential to the health of the men from
16:31
inclemency and weather or exposure in
16:33
the swamps I’m sure many college
16:35
students would mind Sherman Lee’s army
16:37
for a day Lee crackdown on lost or
16:43
damaged supplies which hindered the war
16:44
effort severely quote the increasing
16:47
difficulty in replacing them he directed
16:49
makes greater watchfulness and care
16:51
necessary in their preservation one week
16:54
later he complained quote the means of
16:57
supply are becoming more limited while
16:59
the demand continues great end quote
17:01
on his daily rides Lee quote observed
17:05
with concern in passing through camps
17:07
too much disregard to the proper
17:09
preservation of public property be
17:12
careful to use those kinds of P words
17:15
and public addresses it’s really easy to
17:17
stumble over the words he was firmly
17:20
convinced that our successes mainly
17:23
dependent upon the economical and proper
17:25
appropriation of public property at all
17:27
times end quote compared to the northern
17:31
enemy Confederates had a very little
17:33
margin for error and to win they must
17:35
husband those resources Lee then
17:38
gathered intelligence from the enemy
17:40
from newspapers and he sent Jeb Stewart
17:42
on a cavalry ride around the Union
17:44
position he directed his sharpshooters
17:47
and our terrorists to pester the enemy
17:48
as much as possible so they couldn’t
17:50
build works meanwhile he was employing
17:53
his own troops at building works
17:55
here he was challenging a naive cultural
17:58
perspective on warfare soldiers thought
18:02
they would just slug it out in the open
18:03
field against the Yankees and rely on
18:05
their superior character and martial
18:07
skills to win the day it never crossed
18:10
their minds that they would have to
18:11
wield axes and shovels that was worked
18:14
for slaves our people are opposed to
18:19
work Lee alerted Davis our troops
18:22
officers community and press all
18:24
ridicule and resisted yet he went on to
18:27
explain that it was the very means by
18:29
which McClellan was closing in on
18:31
Richmond why should we leave to him the
18:34
whole advantage of holding advantage of
18:36
laborers combined with valor fortitude
18:39
and boldness of which we have no fair
18:41
proportion it should lead us to success
18:44
after describing how the Romans combined
18:47
fortifications and fighting so
18:48
skillfully we then concluded quote there
18:51
is nothing so military as labor and
18:53
nothing so important to our army as to
18:56
save the lives of its soldiers end quote
18:58
three days into his command he ordered
19:01
each division to assign 300 men to work
19:04
on the supervision of engineer officers
19:07
to dig fortifications soldiers resented
19:11
the labor Lee didn’t care
19:13
trenches and works would save rebel
19:16
lives and multiply combat power he also
19:19
ordered men to quote strengthen their
19:21
positions in the most perfect manner
19:24
with redoubts barricades a batiste
19:27
rifle pits etc so that everyone has a
19:30
hand in the manual labor in quote they
19:37
finally entered combat and fight they
19:39
did winning the seven days battles in
19:41
June and early July and then taking the
19:44
war into Northern Virginia and winning
19:46
the second Manassas campaign literally
19:48
driving the Yankees out of almost every
19:50
ounce of Virginia soil and then taking
19:54
the war into Maryland but after three
19:56
months of fighting Lee knew that he had
19:59
serious discipline problems Lee believed
20:02
quote the material of which it is
20:04
composed is the best in the world and
20:06
nothing can surpass the gallantry and
20:09
intelligent
20:09
of the main body in quote soldiers
20:12
brought with them from civil life
20:14
qualities and motivations that make
20:16
confederate soldiers in lee’s opinion
20:18
the best infantrymen in the world but
20:21
other aspects injured their cause in
20:23
other ways have the Confederacy
20:26
organized units differently Lee believed
20:28
had they not been introduced prematurely
20:30
into combat without adequate training
20:32
and regimentation had they not endured a
20:35
series of harsh conditions hard marches
20:38
and frequent campaigns and battles we
20:40
felt they might have been able to alter
20:42
military culture but the demands of war
20:45
permitted no such opportunity by the
20:48
time Lee was in a position to implement
20:51
any changes he encountered three
20:52
difficulties first military culture had
20:56
already taken hold and it would be
20:58
extremely difficult to break to the
21:02
officers upon whom he would have to rely
21:04
to alter that military culture came from
21:06
the same communities and to a great
21:08
extent the same backgrounds as their
21:10
enlisted men those officers shared the
21:13
same values in civil life and brought
21:15
them into the army and third new
21:18
recruits and furloughed troops revived
21:21
that sentiment by coming from civil life
21:23
back into the Army and so they left
21:26
steady reminders of what that culture
21:27
everyone left behind was all about that
21:31
however didn’t stop Lee from trying
21:33
after Antietam in September 1862 he’d
21:36
elected he directed his subordinates to
21:39
quote infuse a different spirit among
21:41
our officers and to inspire them in
21:43
making every necessary effort to bring
21:46
about a better state of discipline they
21:48
must impress men and officers with the
21:52
importance of a change necessary to the
21:54
preservation of this army and it’s
21:56
successful accomplishment of its mission
21:58
as it’s better discipline greater
22:01
mobility and higher inspirations must
22:03
counterbalance the many advantages over
22:06
us both in numbers and materiel which
22:09
the enemy possess end quote but those
22:12
who were expected to inculcate
22:14
discipline the officer corps had
22:16
suffered very heavy losses over the
22:19
entire war almost a quarter of all
22:22
officers in Lee’s army were killed in
22:25
action and one of every two officers was
22:29
either killed in action or was wounded
22:32
in action and wounded at least once many
22:36
multiple times
22:37
officers were more than twice as likely
22:40
to be killed in battle than were
22:41
enlisted men and more than one and a
22:43
half times as likely to be wounded in
22:46
battle from the seven days through
22:48
Antietam that’s the late June to mid mid
22:52
to late September 600 officers were
22:55
killed and 2,000 officers were wounded
23:00
from Antietam through the summer of 1864
23:04
another 1,000 officers were killed and
23:08
4,000 officers were wounded so from the
23:11
day we took command until mid 1864 1600
23:17
officers were killed in action and over
23:20
6,000 were wounded in action the
23:23
Confederacy of course had a finite
23:26
number of quality officers and the
23:28
staggering number impaired its ability
23:31
to train and discipline the troops what
23:35
our officers most lack is the pains and
23:37
labor of inculcating discipline Lee
23:39
complained to Davis in mid 1864 it’s a
23:42
painful and tedious process and is not
23:45
apt to win favor Lee believed his
23:48
enlisted men lacked discipline and the
23:50
officers cannot instill it in them
23:52
because they lacked discipline as well
23:54
as one inspector explained to
23:58
Confederate headquarters the extensive
23:59
fighting stripped away quote the best
24:02
and most efficient men in each command
24:04
and in too many companies there is not
24:06
material left out of which to make
24:08
company commanders end quote
24:11
yet there was little the Confederacy
24:13
could do if there was any consolation at
24:15
least these replacements were as Major
24:17
General George Pickett argued quote
24:19
Galit gallant and meritorious in action
24:23
end quote and the soldiers trusted them
24:25
to lead them in battle even worse supply
24:29
and transportation problems became so
24:32
severe that soldiers had to take matters
24:33
into their own hands young people
24:36
as we know can each staggering
24:39
quantities of food and quality is not
24:42
always a priority but these soldiers did
24:46
not know how to cook and were
24:47
unaccustomed to such bad food
24:49
a Georgia private grumbled of eating
24:51
biscuits so hard quote I could knock a
24:53
bowl down with one end quote I like this
24:56
guy the soldier has a perfect name his
24:58
name is bacon and he’s trying to bake
25:00
bread the first time I made up dough I
25:03
had a mess of it stuck to my hands I can
25:05
just envision him trying to swing his
25:06
hand to get it all stuck to my hands and
25:08
I could hardly get it off then I tried
25:10
to bake it but I could not get it done
25:12
some was burnt up in some was raw what a
25:15
mess I had my favorite story though a
25:18
soldiers who stole what they thought was
25:21
a tub of lard but in fact it was
25:24
actually tallow for candles and they
25:26
baked the biscuits and somebody came by
25:28
and said that wasn’t lard that’s tallow
25:30
one of the guys in the mess decided to
25:32
try the biscuits out anyway and he said
25:35
pronounce them good and tried to
25:36
convince his fellow soldiers to eat them
25:38
but they wouldn’t have any of it that
25:43
was early in the war then shortages
25:45
kicked in in an average year before the
25:48
war 800,000 to 1 million bushels of
25:51
wheat were shipped into Richmond in 1862
25:54
even though the city’s population had
25:56
doubled and on top of that you had the
25:59
army ranging in between 70 and 80
26:01
thousand men only 250,000 to 300,000
26:05
bushels of wheat arrived by mid January
26:09
1863 the army supply of cattle had
26:11
dwindled down to enough to last through
26:14
the end of the month only and those that
26:16
they had had becomes skinny as a result
26:19
of the winter regarding the other meat
26:22
pork the standard joke in the army was
26:24
that the bacon quote outranks General
26:26
Lee unquote in late April early May 1863
26:30
rations for a single day had to be
26:33
stretched out over three by early
26:36
January 1864 Davis admitted that the
26:39
army issued 1/4 of a pound of meat per
26:42
man per day and Lee only had one more
26:45
day’s issue on hand can you imagine
26:48
trying to run
26:50
armie when you only have food enough for
26:52
the next day it’s incredible when the
26:56
Yankees quipped that the Confederates
26:58
had a new general general starvation
27:00
they wanted very far off the mark that
27:04
was supposed to be funny has got a limit
27:06
lighten up here people I know this is a
27:08
tough subject for many of you
27:09
southerners but this you got a lighten
27:11
up here with shortages soldiers took
27:15
matters into their own hands on the
27:17
marcher encamped troops regularly
27:19
purchased and then later on swiped food
27:21
from locals by late 1863 though there
27:23
was nothing left to swipe instead they
27:26
turned on their government as an Alabama
27:28
private asserted hunger will drive a man
27:31
to anything you may depend the
27:33
Confederate government admitted that in
27:35
1863 alone six hundred and seventeen
27:38
thousand pounds of bacon alone were
27:41
stolen the commissary of subsistence in
27:45
January 1864 confessed quote every
27:48
shipment of meat is robbed of from eight
27:50
to fifteen hundred pounds end quote
27:54
to combat the practice the Confederacy
27:57
had to place guards on all the trains
27:59
with orders to shoot people on the spot
28:03
we tried to solve the food problem as a
28:06
solution and get loaded this is quite a
28:08
revolutionary proposal Lee suggested an
28:11
alteration of priorities and civilian
28:15
consumption habits soldiers in the field
28:18
should become the nation’s top priority
28:21
quote if it requires all the meat in the
28:23
country to support the army it should be
28:25
had and I believe this could be
28:27
accomplished by not only showing its
28:29
necessity but that all equally
28:31
contributed if the government could
28:33
convince the public to consume
28:35
foodstuffs that quote cannot be so well
28:38
used by the troops in the field end
28:40
quote it would save other eatables for
28:42
his men that’s pretty revolutionary
28:44
calling for a change in consumption
28:47
practices clothing clothing of course is
28:50
a big problem in the army many of the
28:51
guys came in with their Sunday best and
28:53
they quickly wore out
28:54
one soldier grumbled about his pants
28:56
that were a quote more holy than
28:58
righteous and quote
29:00
and of course soldiers had shortages of
29:03
coats hats pins etc but shoes with a
29:07
single biggest problem replacement items
29:10
were often poor in quality for example
29:12
in one shipment Lee’s army got 10,000
29:14
pairs of shoes and over 3,000 of them
29:16
were absolutely unusable and had to be
29:19
sent back Lee’s solution to the problem
29:21
he located 271 pre-war shoe makers in
29:25
his ranks and pulled them out of the
29:27
ranks and made them make shoes during
29:29
all the months when the servant when
29:32
they weren’t in active duty that was not
29:34
enough soldiers accustomed to solving
29:37
problems themselves took matters into
29:39
their own hands early on they had
29:41
plundered on the battlefields for money
29:43
and valuables weapons and mementos by
29:46
late 1862 they had no choice but to
29:49
plunder for food and clothing as the
29:51
cold weather approached once again and
29:53
soldiers hoped for a battle so that they
29:56
could clothe themselves properly that
29:59
winter the majority of the troops are
30:02
eager for a fight when officer wrote his
30:04
father the battlefield is the greatest
30:06
storehouse of winter equipments and
30:07
pocket money and our boys have a
30:09
penchant for both end quote
30:11
a Virginia private concurred
30:14
semi-literate I have rather been in
30:16
hopes that if they were going to fight
30:18
it all that it would come off or I want
30:20
some overcoat and blankets if our men
30:23
whipped them I would stand a good chance
30:25
to get some he explained so what they
30:27
needed to do was defeat the Union and
30:30
control the battlefield so they could
30:32
strip the Union soldiers of the clothing
30:33
so they’d have clothing and blankets for
30:35
the winter
30:37
of course if soldiers are being fed
30:39
poorly you can imagine how badly the
30:41
animals were being fed the artillery by
30:43
spring of 1862 was already short 1,200
30:47
horses if they had them they probably
30:49
couldn’t offend them though by early
30:51
1863 Lee directed subordinates to feed
30:54
their animals on twigs and bark from
30:56
poplars maples and sweet gums in the
30:59
latter part of 1863 we had to reduce the
31:02
number of guns in his artillery because
31:05
he could not feed the animals in
31:07
November 1863 he complained to Davis
31:10
quote no corn was received here on the
31:13
21st and
31:14
and on the 22nd and 24th about five
31:17
pounds per horse that average is of
31:20
course two and a half pounds per animal
31:22
per day the Union fed its animals
31:25
between 23 and 26 pounds per day in the
31:31
course of one 40 day period without any
31:34
campaigning a cavalry Brigade increased
31:37
its dismounted men from 292 to 681 due
31:42
to food shortfalls prior to secession
31:47
the southern states had developed a
31:48
transportation network that service
31:50
distant markets predominantly with non
31:52
perishable goods such as cotton tobacco
31:54
and sugar with few exceptions most
31:57
perishable products came locally by the
32:00
winter of 1860 to 63 the Confederacy had
32:03
so overused its rail system in Virginia
32:06
that was becoming increasingly
32:08
unreliable at the time Lee’s army was
32:11
was occupying a position on the southern
32:13
bank of the Rappahannock River near
32:15
Fredericksburg the Richmond
32:17
Fredericksburg and Potomac railroad ran
32:19
there but it was not designed to carry
32:21
Freight just passengers that left the
32:24
Virginia Central probably the most
32:26
important railroad in the state as the
32:28
only viable alternative now the Virginia
32:31
central intersected with Richmond
32:33
Fredericksburg and the Potomac at
32:34
Hanover Junction and from there it went
32:37
all the way up into the Shenandoah
32:39
Valley which of course is the richest
32:41
region for food production in the state
32:43
workers could then unload supplies at
32:46
Hanover Junction put them on wagons and
32:48
cover the 35 miles to the army but of
32:51
course that became more problematic in
32:53
the wintertime when the roads converted
32:56
into mud even worse it resulted in the
33:00
badly over you in a bad overuse of this
33:03
Virginia Central Railroad its tracks had
33:06
declined significantly in just two years
33:08
of war due to the overuse and a lack of
33:11
repairs it’s quote efficiency is most
33:14
seriously impaired end quote so the
33:17
railroad president informed Davis in
33:19
mid-march 1863 the line suffered for
33:22
derailment in a five-day period to
33:26
reduce derailments the Confederacy
33:28
had to cut the weight in each car by 25%
33:31
and then slow down the speed of the
33:34
Train Li solution by early 1864 li
33:38
sought the suspension of all rail travel
33:41
except on government business with the
33:44
space designated for use in supplying
33:47
the army
33:47
in addition quote this is pretty
33:50
revolutionary all the population whose
33:53
presence would impede or endanger our
33:55
efforts should be removed especially
33:58
that part of it
33:59
which increases the consumption of
34:01
public stores without aiding or
34:03
strengthening the army he wants to
34:05
depopulate Richmond fewer mouths food
34:09
goes farther he wanted prisoners
34:11
parolees federal deserters and
34:13
unemployed person to remove from the
34:15
city and quote every encouragement given
34:18
to the rest of the non-combatant
34:20
population to retire except those whose
34:23
services may be useful or who will not
34:26
increase the scarcity of supplies end
34:28
quote
34:29
if the individual didn’t contribute
34:32
directly to the war effort through
34:33
military or government service
34:35
production direct labor or
34:37
transportation the government needed to
34:39
urge them to leave the richmond area to
34:42
conserve supplies for the troops as the
34:46
confederate margin for error winnowed
34:48
and the in the area of supply and
34:49
transportation it declined in manpower
34:51
as well effective implementation of
34:54
Davis’s strategy was extremely costly
34:57
for of every 10 soldiers in lee’s army
35:00
was either killed or wounded and five of
35:03
every nine soldiers who ever served in
35:05
lee’s army was either killed wounded or
35:07
captured once prior to the surrender at
35:11
Appomattox one in 16 suffered multiple
35:16
wounds and another one in ten were
35:18
wounded and also captured by factoring
35:24
in those who died of disease and
35:26
accidents or who were discharged for
35:28
disabilities almost three of every salt
35:31
for soldiers who ever served in the Army
35:34
of Northern Virginia were either killed
35:36
died of disease were wounded at least
35:39
once were captured at least one
35:41
or were discharged for a disability
35:44
that’s unbelievable when you factor out
35:49
those who deserted the army permanently
35:52
the percentage of casualties rises to
35:55
80% not only did these terrible losses
36:00
damage the army but they also hurt
36:02
morale even in the face of resounding
36:04
triumphs casualties cut to the core of
36:07
wartime support let me give you a great
36:09
example the state of North Carolina
36:11
which narrowly embrace secession what
36:15
fueled the fires of disaffection more
36:17
than anything in North Carolina with the
36:19
tremendous casualties among North
36:21
Carolinians in Lee’s army now listen to
36:24
these statistics because they’re
36:25
unbelievable behind the provost state of
36:28
Virginia North Carolina sent the most
36:30
troops to Lee’s Army in the spring of
36:32
1863 at Chancellorsville three of every
36:37
ten North Carolinians in Lee’s army was
36:40
killed wounded or captured that was but
36:43
by far the greatest total and the
36:45
greatest percentage of any state in
36:48
Lee’s army the seven highest totals of
36:51
killed and wounded fell to North
36:53
Carolina regiments two months later at
36:57
Gettysburg after the army had received
37:00
two huge brigades of North Carolinians
37:05
46.4% of all North Carolinians were
37:08
killed wounded or captured that’s almost
37:10
half the top four regimental casualty
37:14
figures and six of the seven highest
37:17
occurred in North Carolina regiments at
37:19
Gettysburg North Carolina lost 1782 more
37:25
men than the next highest state Virginia
37:27
that 1782 amounted to more casualties
37:32
than eight Confederate states suffered
37:35
in the Battle of Gettysburg then to
37:39
worsen the discrepancy at the Battle of
37:41
Bristow station in October 1863 almost
37:44
every single casualty in the battle was
37:47
a North Carolinian and again another 10%
37:50
of all North Carolinians and Lee’s army
37:52
so while it’s difficult to ascertain
37:55
precision a reasonable calculation over
37:58
a five and a half month period indicates
38:02
that seven of every North 10 North
38:04
Carolinians in Lee’s Army was either
38:06
killed wounded or captured in that
38:08
period the impact of those losses in the
38:13
most successful and visible Confederate
38:15
field command the Army of Northern
38:16
Virginia on the North Carolina home
38:19
front was devastating and coincided
38:21
precisely with the rising disaffection
38:24
in that state to compensate for
38:27
productivity decline associated with
38:30
manpower loss to the army Confederates
38:32
relied on blacks who proved increasingly
38:34
undependable as the war went on more and
38:38
more they slowed down work ran off to
38:40
the Yankees and caused general uneasy
38:42
uneasiness among the population that
38:44
remained at home the situation was so
38:47
severe that by 1864 the former governor
38:51
of Virginia General Henry wise told a
38:54
family friend that quote slavery is a
38:58
dead issue here in Virginia end quote
39:01
regardless of who won the civil war in
39:05
other words even if the Confederacy want
39:07
one you could never maintain slavery in
39:10
Virginia again attrition wore down
39:15
Confederates as we tried desperately to
39:18
increase manpower he notified the
39:20
Secretary of War in January 1863 that
39:23
they needed every man and he asked the
39:25
secretary to call on governor’s to
39:29
appeal to their constituents to fill the
39:31
ranks using quote shame against those
39:35
who will not heed the dictates of honor
39:37
and of patriotism
39:38
end quote in one instance Lee found
39:41
himself under arrest I’ll bet most of
39:43
you need to know that Robert Ely was a
39:44
had an order issued for his arrest what
39:48
happened was the Secretary of War
39:49
ordered two privates to come to Richmond
39:51
to act as clerks and Lee did know who
39:54
issued the order but immediately
39:55
overturned the order and directed the
39:57
guys to go back and be rifle toters
39:59
again when the Secretary of War found
40:01
out he ordered Lee to be arrested that’s
40:05
kind of a funny concept imagine Leonor
40:08
under arrest of course we explained
40:09
situation in guess what the Secretary of
40:12
War rescinded his order the men’s state
40:14
as his rifle toters so we even won the
40:17
battle the grind of the 1864 campaign
40:21
took its toll on Lee’s army after two
40:24
weeks of fighting in May 1864 Lee had
40:28
six generals killed sick nine generals
40:31
wounded and three generals captured by
40:33
the end of May one corps commander
40:36
Longstreet was wounded James Longstreet
40:39
that is another Corps commander Richard
40:41
Ewell had collapsed from exhaustion a
40:43
third Corps commander ap Hill had a
40:45
flare flare up of his old illness
40:48
prostatitis as a result of a youthful
40:51
indiscretion and then Stewart of course
40:55
his cavalry commander was killed Lee
40:57
suffered from dysentery and which he get
40:59
this I got when I found this out found
41:01
this in in the medical army medical
41:04
directors report Lee did not get more
41:07
than two consecutive hours of sleep for
41:11
a three week period now Lee is 59 years
41:16
of age was he born in 1850
41:20
it’s about 56 years of age that’s all
41:23
that’s not very much sleep and of course
41:25
he’s sleeping on a rack and a torte have
41:28
you ever seen it Museum of the
41:29
Confederacy has has leaves caught it’s
41:32
more like a torture rack by early June
41:37
1864 the campaign locked into trench
41:40
warfare with all the harsh conditions
41:42
that entailed from September 1862
41:45
through July 1864 the hospitals in
41:49
Virginia had admitted almost four
41:51
hundred and thirteen thousand soldiers
41:53
as patients due to illness or injury
41:55
during the three months of May June and
41:58
July 1864 those hospitals admitted one
42:02
hundred and two thousand soldiers alone
42:06
now even if every soldier was
42:09
transferred from one hospital to a
42:11
second one
42:12
that means 51,000 soldiers in a
42:15
three-month period were sent to the
42:18
hospital
42:19
that’s incredible in it
42:22
nor could lee effectively replace those
42:24
who went down he had squeezed everyone
42:26
he could in uniform back into the ranks
42:29
and conscription had augmented his
42:31
numbers too as the army passed by
42:33
communities his corps commanders had
42:35
orders to conscript any male who
42:38
appeared physically able incidentally
42:42
and and by the late stage of the war I
42:45
would say one in every eight soldiers
42:46
and Lee’s army was a conscript but I
42:49
want to mention this because this plays
42:51
into the 15 slave law in Virginia only
42:55
2% of all exemptions from conscription
42:58
were given to people under the 15 slave
43:00
law to put it in context four times as
43:04
many farmers railroad workers and
43:08
Millers received exemptions five times
43:11
as many shoemakers and government
43:14
officials received exemptions even
43:17
doctors and clergymen received twice as
43:20
many exemptions as slave holders on the
43:23
15 slave law by the end of 1864 the
43:28
bureau of conscription decreed that
43:30
there were no more conscripts to tap
43:32
except 16 year-olds who were coming of
43:36
age in the next year in Virginia that
43:39
amounted to the precise number of 2719
43:45
in fact the Confederacy just doesn’t
43:47
have the manpower anymore the strain of
43:49
war proved almost unbearable one brigade
43:52
of 1187 privates for example had to
43:56
defend 2,401 yards of works and two
44:01
thousand three hundred yards of picket
44:03
area every day the Union was able to
44:07
rotate troops from the trenches back the
44:10
Confederacy didn’t have that luxury by
44:12
1864 food for man and beast became more
44:15
and more scarce combat had discouraged
44:18
farmers from planting in the Shenandoah
44:19
Valley as far south as Bunker Hill and a
44:22
drought had devastated the corn crop
44:24
between Stanton and Newmarket reducing
44:27
corn production to one-third its usual
44:30
harvest animals got between two and a
44:32
half and five pounds of feed per day and
44:35
it was no
44:36
better for humans in one instance
44:38
cavalry commander Wade Hampton see seas
44:41
2500 head of cattle from the Federals
44:43
that gave the Confederate Army enough
44:46
meat for a month but other than that as
44:48
the winter came on the situation proved
44:51
bleak soldiers seldom received more than
44:54
a pound of cornmeal and a quarter pound
44:56
of beef per day by 1865 the commissary
45:00
could not sustain even that meager
45:02
bounty often 1/4 pound of beef and
45:06
either a pound of bread or 3/4 pound of
45:09
corn meal per day was issued that
45:11
equaled 900 to 1,200 calories per day
45:15
the US Army feeds its soldiers in the
45:19
combat environment 4000 calories a day
45:22
because that’s what the army feels is
45:24
essential to maintain muscle mass and
45:27
body weight not put on weight just to
45:29
maintain existing weight these guys are
45:31
living on 900 to 1,200 calories a day
45:35
that’s like two hours at the at the
45:38
local pub for most undergraduate
45:40
students many days the government could
45:45
supply troops with either meat or the
45:47
starch but not both the government
45:50
diverted corn intended to go to horses
45:52
for their soldiers the corn had
45:54
contained dried leaves and stalks from
45:57
the corn plant roughage that the that
46:00
the animals would find nutritious but of
46:02
course the soldiers found it unpalatable
46:04
supplies from everywhere came at a
46:07
glacial pace we had to draw a supplies
46:10
from as far away as Georgia taxing the
46:12
rail lines even more one line was so bad
46:15
the trains averaged one mile per hour
46:20
once Sherman began his advance through
46:23
Georgia and then South Carolina he cut
46:25
off those areas from food access and so
46:28
Lee’s area from which he could drawn was
46:31
shrinking more and more but it was not
46:33
until the combination of Lincoln’s
46:35
reelection Sherman’s march that
46:37
desertion began to truly soar in 1865 it
46:41
got worse and worse little clothing
46:44
little food too little rest and too much
46:47
work sapped soldiers
46:49
their motivation to fight good soldiers
46:52
tried soldiers began to lose faith and
46:54
desert men who had fought well in
46:56
literally dozens of battles those final
46:59
weeks were awful for men in Lee’s army
47:01
over the course of February and March
47:03
Lee’s army lost on average about 120 men
47:06
to desertion every day that’s comparable
47:10
to an infantry brigade present for duty
47:13
every 10 days just a desertion others
47:17
held on on the retreat from Richmond the
47:20
Richmond Petersburg line westward their
47:22
physical deterioration from poor
47:24
condition prevented thousands from
47:26
keeping up on my previous campaigns
47:29
where soldiers purposely straggled many
47:32
just could not stay up on the March 4
47:35
months Lee’s army lived on a diet that
47:37
lacked half the necessary protein to
47:40
maintain muscle mass and provided less
47:43
than two-thirds the necessary calories
47:45
to sustain body mass the diet by that by
47:49
this point largely down to a quarter
47:51
pound of beef and two pints of cornmeal
47:53
and occasional small amounts of molasses
47:56
was woefully deficient in most vitamins
47:59
resulting in weakness and absorption
48:01
problems of protein minerals and
48:03
vitamins with soldiers suffering skin
48:06
ailments night blindness anemia scurvy
48:08
and diarrhea in other words they weren’t
48:11
taking in enough good nutrition to break
48:14
down the food that they were actually
48:15
eating in a telling assessment doctor JW
48:20
Powell medical director for the Third
48:21
Corps commented on the Corps inspection
48:24
report in February quote while there was
48:27
not much well I’m sorry
48:29
while there was not found’ much absolute
48:32
sickness existing there were many weak
48:35
and feeble men who cannot be relied upon
48:38
to undergo any great physical exertions
48:41
end quote although Lee wants more a call
48:44
for discipline and reminded them a
48:46
patriotism he could get nothing more
48:48
from many of his troops pressed by
48:51
Federals Lee had to push his men hard on
48:54
the retreat thousands dropped out of the
48:56
March some falling into Yankee hands
48:58
others slowly working their way home
49:00
because they liked the stamina
49:02
to keep up for four long years this army
49:05
had battled overwhelming federal
49:07
manpower and resources brilliantly close
49:10
to 30,000 of them fell in combat and
49:13
more than 125,000 suffered wounds but
49:17
punished the Yankees they did Lee’s army
49:20
inflicted 45% of all the Union soldiers
49:24
killed and 45% of all the Union soldiers
49:27
wounded in the entire war in the last
49:32
year of the war despite the decline in
49:35
Lee’s Army grants forces sustained some
49:39
127 thousand casualties that’s almost as
49:45
many casualties as the Army of Northern
49:47
Virginia suffered for four years of war
49:49
in general order number nine a farewell
49:54
to his troops Lee stated that they had
49:56
been quote compelled to yield to
49:58
overwhelming numbers and resources end
50:00
quote to President Davis 10 years later
50:02
he told something different he blamed
50:04
the quote moral condition of the army
50:06
for defeat quote the operations which
50:10
occurred while the troops were in the
50:12
entrenchments in front of Richmond and
50:13
Petersburg would not marked by the
50:15
boldness and decision which formally
50:17
characterized them except in particular
50:19
instances they were feeble and a want of
50:22
confidence seemed to possess officers
50:24
and men this condition I think was
50:27
produced by the state of feeling in the
50:29
country and the GB and the
50:31
communications received by the men from
50:34
their homes urging their return and the
50:37
abandonment of the field end quote
50:39
both were correct the rebels confronted
50:42
vast Union superiority and over the
50:44
course of four years of war it wore down
50:47
the Confederacy ultimately the Army of
50:51
Northern Virginia did not collapse
50:52
because of southern culture industry
50:56
agriculture slavery motivations manpower
50:59
shortages discontent at home or any
51:02
other solitary factor intense and
51:05
sustained Union pressure caused serious
51:08
fissures in all these areas winnowing
51:11
away that margin for error and cutting
51:13
into muscle and bone collectively
51:14
bringing down the
51:16
and the entire Confederacy four long
51:20
years of war damaged or disrupted
51:22
virtually every aspect of Confederate
51:25
life
51:25
the demoralisation to which Lee referred
51:29
was a consequence of all these problems
51:31
not a cause let me conclude by telling
51:35
you a little story about private Thomas
51:37
Petty a native of Virginia and a pre-war
51:39
clerk in Washington DC he lost some
51:42
friends over the Secession issue he
51:44
joined the Confederate Army and in a
51:46
warm July night 1861 he was gazing up to
51:49
the sky and saw a comet rocketing
51:51
through the sky the next day he read in
51:53
the new Richmond newspapers that no one
51:55
had anticipated the comet he wondered
51:59
what it meant
52:00
perhaps it portends refer shadows the
52:03
speedy acknowledgment of our Confederate
52:05
States independence he pondered and by a
52:08
sudden apparition typifies the
52:10
Confederate States which is coming to
52:11
the host of nations like the comet
52:13
blazing gloriously in quote petit was
52:18
wrong about independence but correct
52:19
about the comet as a metaphor in the
52:22
grandeur of time the Army of Northern
52:23
Virginia might the Confederate States of
52:25
America was a short-lived shooting star
52:28
it appeared as a powerful illumination
52:31
and quickly passed into darkness perhaps
52:34
200,000 or more men stepped into its
52:36
ranks throughout the course of the war
52:38
undermanned underfed poorly clothed and
52:41
inadequately equipped the Army of
52:43
Northern Virginia kept a significantly
52:45
larger and better resource Union Army at
52:47
bay for almost four years its success
52:51
was so great that in the minds of
52:53
northerners and southerners alike it
52:55
came to symbolize the viability of the
52:58
Confederate states its commander was
53:01
perceived by many as a general superior
53:04
to all including Napoleon himself the
53:08
combination of Lee and his army have
53:11
left an indelible mark on the landscape
53:13
and the psyche of the American nation
53:15
far beyond its four years even today
53:19
many decades after its last veteran has
53:21
passed away Lee’s army continues to live
53:24
in the imagination of the American
53:26
public not so much for what it
53:29
represents
53:29
but for what it accomplished on the
53:31
field of battle under the most difficult
53:34
conditions and circumstances thank you
53:37
very much
53:47
question
Queue

Joe Rogan Experience #1139 – Jordan Peterson

45:04
you’ll be able to participate in and if
he’s fun to play with in adults we’ll
teach him things and then he wins at
life and so when you say to your kid it
doesn’t matter whether you win or lose
matters how you play the game what
you’re saying is don’t forget kid that
what you’re trying to do here is to do
well at life and you need to practice
the strategies that enable you to do
well at life well you’re in any specific
game and you never want to compromise
your ability to do well at life for the
sake of winning a single game and
there’s a deep ethic in that and it’s
the ethic of reciprocity in games part
of the reason that we’re so obsessed
with sports is because we like to see
that dramatized you know like the person
we really admire as an athlete isn’t
only the person who wins we don’t like
the narcissistic winners they’re winners
and that’s a plus but if they’re
narcissistic they’re not good team
players they’re only out for themselves
then we think well you’re a winner in
the narrow sense but your character is
suspect you’re no role model even though
you’re a winner and it’s because
we’re looking for something deeper we’re
looking for that the manifestation of
character that allows you to win across
the set of possible games and that’s a
real thing that’s a real ethic it’s a
46:13
fundamental ethic I think what you’re
46:15
pointing out that’s very important is
46:16
we’re we’re searching for the person
46:18
who’s got it all nailed someone who
46:21
tries their hardest but is also honest
46:25
enough about the circumstances to not
46:28
cry foul when it’s gone
46:30
the other person’s way yeah well that’s
46:32
part of resilience that’s right like
46:34
you’re not gonna win it you’re not going
46:36
to you’re not gonna score on every shot
46:37
right it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take
46:39
the shots doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try
46:40
to to hit the goal but part of part of
46:43
being able to continue to take shots is
46:46
to have the strength of character to
46:48
tolerate the fact that that in that
46:49
instance you weren’t on top it’s more
46:52
trivial in games than it is in fights
46:55
and it’s also the response is much more
46:59
negative to the from the fans if you
47:01
lose a fight and complain about it it is
47:04
it’s ruthless there because they
47:07
understand that you’ve made a huge
47:09
character error yeah so why do you think
47:12
it’s more important in fights than it is
47:14
in games why do you think it is because
47:15
the consequences are so grave because
47:17
you recognize that the high is much
47:19
higher and the lows are much lower to
47:21
lose a basketball game sucks but it’s
47:23
nothing like losing a fight there’s no
47:25
comparison it’s not even so what do you
think it is the damages the fighter if
he complains about losing why is that a
mistake why do the fans respond so
negatively to that because they know
they know that you lost they know that
you’re complaining for no reason and
you’re not a hero
they want you to be better than them
they want you to be the person that has
the courage to step into a cage or a
47:47
ring or wherever you with whatever the
47:49
format is you’re competing and to do
47:51
something that’s extremely difficult and
47:53
when you do that they hold you to a
47:54
higher state right to lose with grace
47:56
yes and when you fall especially if you
47:58
were a champion that is one of the most
48:00
disappointing things ever when champion
48:02
complains right and and it is okay so
48:04
response is horrific from the audience
48:06
okay so that’s a great example so let’s
48:08
imagine what does the person who loses
48:11
something important with grace do and
48:13
the answer is fairly straightforward
48:16
accepts the defeat and thinks okay what
48:18
what is it that I have left to improve
48:21
that will decrease the possibility of a
48:22
similar defeat in the future yes right
48:24
soso so what he’s doing is because the
48:27
great athlete and the great person is
48:30
not only someone who’s exceptionally
48:31
skilled at what they do but who’s trying
48:33
to expand their skills at all at all
48:35
times yes and the attempt to expand
48:38
their skills at all times is even more
48:40
important than the fact that they’re
48:41
great to begin with because the
48:42
trajectory is so important more
48:43
important in particular to the audience
48:46
it’s extremely important the audience
48:48
because you are the person who’s
48:49
competing you are expecting them to live
48:52
out this life in a perfect way or in a
48:54
much more powerful way than you’re
48:55
capable yes and so part of that is the
48:57
skill because they put in the practice
48:59
but part of that also is the willingness
49:01
to push the skill farther into new
49:03
domains of development with each action
49:05
and that’s really what people like to
49:07
watch right they don’t like to watch a
49:08
perfect athletic performance they like
49:10
to watch a perfect athletic performance
49:12
that’s pushed into the domain of new
49:14
risk they want to see both at the same
49:16
time you’re really good at what you do
49:18
and you’re getting better okay so you
49:19
lose a match which is not any indication
49:22
that you’re not good at what you do you
49:23
might not be as good as the person who
beat you but if you lose the match and
then whine what you’ve done is sacrifice
the higher order principle of constant
improvement of your own skills yes
because you should be analyzing the loss
and saying the reason I lost insofar as
it’s relevant to this particular time
and place is the insufficiencies I
manifested that defeated me and I need
49:45
to track those insufficiencies so that I
49:47
can rectify them in the future and if
49:48
I’m blaming it on you or the referees or
49:50
the situation that I’m not taking
49:53
responsibility and I’m not pushing
49:54
myself forward and so then you also take
49:56
the meaning out of it like one of the
49:58
things I’ve been doing on my tour people
50:01
are criticizing me to some degree for
50:03
saying things to people that are obvious
50:04
well first of all it’s not like I didn’t
50:06
bloody well know they were obvious when
50:08
I wrote those rulings you were the rules
50:10
in my book for example stand up straight
50:12
with your shoulders back you know treat
50:14
yourself like you’re someone responsible
50:16
for helping it’s like I know perfectly
50:18
well that those can be read as cliches
50:20
the question is cliche let’s say is
50:23
something that’s so true that it’s that
50:25
it’s become that it’s become it’s widely
50:29
accepted by everyone well but we don’t
50:31
know why it’s true anymore and so it’s
50:35
this issue that the issue that we’re
50:37
talking about here or the issue of being
50:38
a good sport we need to figure out why
50:40
that’s true and the reason that it’s
50:42
true is that you’re trying to push your
50:44
development farther than you’ve already
50:45
developed at every point in time and now
50:47
that’s the proper that’s the proper
50:49
moral attitude so
50:56
when you see an athletic performance
50:58
where someone is pushing themselves
50:59
beyond what they are you see someone
51:01
dramatizing the process of proper
51:03
adaptation it isn’t the skill itself
51:05
it’s the extension of the skill when you
51:07
see someone acting like a bad sport then
51:09
they’re sacrificing that and so they’re
51:10
sacrificing the higher for the lower and
51:12
no one likes that in the fights it’s got
51:15
to be see the question is that’s the
51:17
thing I can’t quite figure out is why
51:19
that would be even exaggerated in a
51:20
fight situation and you said it’s
51:23
because the stakes are so high
51:24
yeah the consequences of victory or
51:26
defeat they’re just so much greater
51:29
there’s your your health is on the line
51:32
it’s one of the rare things that you do
51:34
where your health is on the line your
51:37
physical health right so there’s more
51:38
extreme victories and more game defeats
51:40
and so the morality that’s associated
51:42
with defeat is more extreme exactly
51:44
because there’s more on the line and the
51:48
way people treat the champions it’s it’s
51:50
a it’s a very different thing it’s the
51:53
the respect and adulation that a
51:55
champion receives is it’s the pinnacle
51:58
of sports in terms of the the love from
52:01
the audience when someone wins a great
52:04
fight it’s there’s nothing like it and
52:06
this is one of the reasons why these
52:07
people are willing to put their health
52:09
on the line because that high the high
52:11
of victory and it’s not just a victory
52:14
it’s a you know what what is that who
52:16
was it who said the victory is really
52:21
the victory over the lesser you it’s a
52:24
victory it’s always the victory is over
52:28
you’ve got to realize a guy like steep a
52:30
Miocic who defends is heavyweight title
52:33
this weekend in the UFC he is he’s the
52:37
heavyweight champion the world but he’s
52:39
not undefeated he lost in his career
52:41
he’s lost a couple of times and he you
52:43
know as I’m sure he’s lost wrestling
52:45
matches and sparring sessions in the gym
52:48
and all he’s a product of improvement
52:51
right he’s a product of discipline and
52:53
hard work and thinking and strategy and
52:56
constantly improving upon his skills and
52:58
so so in because of that he’s the
53:00
baddest man on the planet so my in my
53:01
book rule for is this is 12 excuse me
53:05
this is from 12 rules for life rule 4 is
53:09
come
53:10
carry yourself to who you were yesterday
53:11
not to who someone else is today yes
53:13
because you need to be you need to have
53:15
a hierarchy of improvement you need to
53:18
be aiming something for something and
53:19
that means you’re going to be lesser
53:20
than people who’ve always already
53:22
attained along that dimension yes and
53:23
that can give rise to envy so the
53:26
question is who should you defeat in the
53:27
final analysis and the answer is you
53:29
should defeat your former self
53:30
you should be constantly trying to do
53:32
that and you’re the right control for
53:34
yourself to because you’re the one who’s
53:36
had all your advantages and
53:37
disadvantages and so if you want to
53:39
compete fairly with someone then you
53:40
should be competing with you and it is
53:42
the case and this is what we were
53:44
talking about – with regards to the self
53:46
improvement of the fighter is well if
53:49
you’re improving yourself then what you
53:51
are doing is competing with your lesser
53:52
self and then you might also ask well
53:54
what is that lesser self and that lesser
53:57
self would be resentful and bitter and
53:59
and aggressive and vengeance seeking and
54:04
all of those things that go along with
54:05
having a negative moral character and
54:07
those are things that interfere with
54:08
your ability to progress as you move
54:10
forward through life so it’s very
54:13
necessary to understand that this is why
54:15
you know I’ve been stressing this idea
54:18
of personal responsibilities like well
54:20
personal responsibility is to compete
54:21
with yourself is to be slightly better
54:23
than yourself the next day and it better
54:25
in some way that you can actually manage
54:27
and that’s humility it’s right like well
54:29
I’m a flawed person and I’ve got all my
54:31
problems could I be as good as person X
54:34
it’s like not the right question the
54:36
right question is could you be slightly
54:38
better tomorrow than you’re currently
54:39
flawed self and the answer to that is if
54:41
you have enough humility to set the bar
54:44
properly low then you could be better
54:46
tomorrow than you are today because what
54:49
you also have to do is you have to say
54:51
well here’s all my flaws and my
54:54
insufficiencies and the best that
54:56
someone that flawed and insufficient
54:58
could do to improve and actually do it
55:00
is this and that’s not worth going out
55:02
in the street and celebrating with
55:03
plaque arts you know it’s like well this
55:05
is why I tell people to clean the room
55:07
it’s not going to brag to someone that
55:08
you did that but someone is insufficient
55:10
as you might be able to manage it and
55:12
that means you actually are on the
55:14
pathway to self improvement and you’re
55:15
transcending your former self and you
55:17
might say well what’s the right way of
55:19
being in the world if there is such a
55:21
thing and it’s not acting according to a
55:23
set of rules
55:24
it’s attempting continually to transcend
55:26
the flawed thing that you currently are
55:28
and what’s so interesting about that is
55:30
that the mean meaning in the meaning in
55:32
life is to be found in that pursuit so
59:56
it’s things are going really badly for
you and that there’s just chance
associated with that sometimes and you
and the people around you are doing
stupid things to make it worse it’s like
okay what have you got under those
circumstances you’ve got the possibility
to slowly raise yourself out of the mire
you’ve got that the possibility to do
just what the fighter does when he’s
defeated which is to say well regardless
of the circumstances that might have led
to my defeat like even if there were
errors on the part of the referee this
is no time to whine about it this is a
time to take stock of what I did wrong
so that I could improve it into the
future and that’s the right attitude you
know in the Old Testament one of the
things that’s really interesting about
the Old Testament stories is in the Old
Testament the Jews keep getting walloped
by God it’s like they struggle up and
make an empire and then they just get
walloped and then it’s all crushed in
there and they’re they’re out of it for
generations and then they struggle back
up and make an empire and then they get
demolished again and it happens over and
over and over and the the attitude of
the Old Testament Hebrews is we must
have made a mistake it’s never to shake
their fist at the sky and curse fate
it’s never that the presupposition is if
things aren’t working out it’s my fault
and that’s a hell of a presupposition
and you might say well of course you
know what’s that that underestimates the
degree to which there’s systemic
oppression etc etc and and the and the
vagaries of fate it’s like it doesn’t
over underestimate it it’s not the point
the point is your best strategic
61:28
position is how am i insufficient and
61:31
how can I rectify that that’s what
61:33
you’ve got and the thing is you are
61:35
insufficient and you could rectify it
both of those are within your grasp if
you aim low enough one of the things why
do you see the that’s another thing you
keep saying aim low enough have a low
enough bar why do you why do you mean
that well let’s say you’ve got a kid and
you want the kid to improve you don’t
set them a bar that’s so high that it’s
impossible for them to attain it you
take a look at the kid and you think
okay this kid’s got this range of skill
here’s a challenge we can throw at him
or her that exceeds their current level
of skill but gives them a
reasonable probability of success and so
like I’m saying it tongue-in-cheek to
some degree you know it’s like but if
you’re but I’m doing it as an aid to
humility it’s like well I don’t know how
to start improving my life someone might
say that and I would say well you’re not
aiming low enough there’s something you
could do that you are regarding is
trivial that that you could do that you
would do that would result in an actual
improvement but it’s not a big enough
improvement for you so you won’t lower
yourself enough to take the opportunity
incremental steps yes and so this is
also what is achieved through exercise
it’s one of the most important well what
do you do when you go and lift weights
you don’t go on like if you haven’t
bench press before you don’t put 400
pounds on the damn bar and drop the and
drop the bar through your skull I know
you think look when I started working
out when I was a kid I was I was wait
about a hundred and thirty pounds and I
was six foot one so thin kid and I
smoked a lot I wasn’t in good shape I
wasn’t in good physical shape and I went
to the gym and it was bloody
embarrassing you know when people would
come over and help me with the goddamn
weights here’s how you’re supposed to
use this you know it was humiliating and
maybe I was pressing 65 pounds or
something at that point you know but
what am I gonna do I’m gonna lift up a
hundred fifty pounds and injure myself
right off the bat no I had to go in
there and strip down and put my skinny
goddamn self in front of the mirror and
think son-of-a-bitch there’s all these
monsters in the gym who’ve been lifting
weights for ten years and I’m struggling
to get 50 pounds off the bar tough luck
for me but I could lift 50 pounds and it
wasn’t fair very long until I could lift
75 and well you know how it goes but and
I never injured myself when I was late
lifting and the reason for that was I
never pushed myself past where I knew I
could go and I pushed myself a lot you
know I gained 35 pounds of muscle in
about three years in University I kind
of had to quit because I was eating so
goddamn much I couldn’t stand it
seething like six meals a day it was
just taking up too much time but there’s
a humility in determining what it is
that the wretched creature that you are
can actually manage aim low and I don’t
mean don’t aim and I don’t mean don’t
aim up but you have to accept the fact
that you can set yourself a goal that
you can attain and there’s not going to
be much glory in it to begin with
because if you’re not in very good shape
the goal
Yuuka day could attain tomorrow isn’t
very glorious but it’s a hell of a lot
better than nothing and it beats the
hell out of bitterness and it’s way
better than blaming someone else it’s
way less dangerous and you could do it
and what’s cool about it there’s a
statement in the New Testament it’s
called the Matthew principle and
economists use it to describe how the
economy in the world works to those who
have everything more will be given from
those who have nothing everything will
be taken it’s like what’s very
pessimistic in some sense because it
means that as you start to fail you fail
more and more rapidly but it also means
that as you start to succeed you succeed
more and more rapidly and so you take an
incremental step and well now you can
64:58
lift 55 pounds instead of 52 point 5
65:01
pounds you think well what the hell is
65:02
that it’s like it’s one step on a very
65:04
long journey and so it’s it and it
65:07
starts to compound on you so a small
65:10
step today means puts you in a position
65:11
to take a slightly bigger step for the
65:13
next day and then that puts you in a
65:15
position to take a slightly bigger step
65:16
the next day and you do that for two or
65:18
three years man you’re starting to
65:20
stride you know what I have so many
65:22
people coming up to me now this is one
65:23
of the things that’s so insanely fun
65:25
about this tour which is so positive
65:27
it’s it brings me to tears regularly
65:30
it’s mind boggling because people come
65:32
up to me and this is happening wherever
65:34
I go now and they say they’re very
65:36
polite when they come and talk to me you
65:38
know and they’re always apologetic for
65:40
interrupting and so it’s never it’s
75:34
that what that means is that these kids
have been educated for twelve years and
no one had ever sat them down and said
okay what the hell are you doing and why
and how are you gonna get like where do
you want to go why do you want to get
there how are you gonna get there
how are you gonna mark your progress
they’ve never walked them through that
exercise you walk people through that
exercise just to get them to do that
increases the probability that they’ll
stay on track by 50% that’s incredible
well it’s one of the things I’ve always
complained about is that they know one
people teach you facts they don’t teach
you how to approach life they don’t
teach you how to think they don’t teach
you how to confront why do the
insecurities and different traps that
your mind will set up for you yeah well
that’s what partly what’s so fun about
doing this lecture tour because that’s
exactly what I’m talking to people about

..

83:28
right I’m transmitting information that
I’ve learned from very very wise people
and so there’s that but also we don’t
want to underestimate the utility of the
technology right because we have this
long-form technology now and it’s
enabling us to have this discussion and
so we can get deeper into things
publicly and socially then we were able
to before and I see this I see this as a
manifestation of that and and as and I’m
hoping too that maybe maybe what’s
happening because we’re gonna have a lot
of adaptation to do in the next 20 years
as things change so rapidly we can
hardly comprehend it and hopefully the
way we’re going to be able to manage
that is to think and hopefully these
long form discussions will provide the
political or provide the public forum
for us to actually think to actually
engage at a deep enough level so we’ll
be able to master the transformations
and I think that’s possible and him
part of the reason that I wrote this
book and well part of the reason that
I’d be doing what I’ve been doing for
84:24
the last thirty years because I really
have believed since nineteen eighty five
something like that that the way out of
political polarization the way out of
the excesses of the right and the left
is through the individual I think the
West got that right the fundamental unit
of measurement is the individual and the
fundamental task of the individual is to
engage in this process of humble
self-improvement I believe that’s the
case and that’s where the meaning is and
that’s where the responsibility is and I
think and I’m hoping that if enough
people in the West and then and then the
rest of the world for that matter but
we’re very polarized in the West right
now if enough people take responsibility
for getting their individual life’s
together then we’ll get wise enough so
we won’t let this process of political
polarization put us back to the same
places that we went so many times in the
20th century I don’t see another
antidote for it it’s not political it’s
ethical this is the message that I
always hear from you and this is you as
a friend this is the you that I
understand but this is not how you’re
commonly represented you are the most
misrepresented person I’ve ever met in
my life
I have never seen someone who has so
much positive that gets ignored and
where people are looking for any little
thing that they could possibly
misrepresent and switch up and change
and I’m kind of stunned by it I mean I
I’m really not sure what it is about you
that’s so polarizing with all these
different people that are deciding that
85:58
you are some sexist transphobic evil
86:04
person that’s this right-wing
86:06
all right the figure you know even to
86:11
the point where it’s it’s it’s kind of
86:14
humorous to me sometimes when I read
86:16
some of these these takes on you what do
86:20
you think that’s from like what what is
86:22
have you this is a new thing for you
86:25
you mean this only been the last few
86:27
years that you’ve gone from this
86:29
relatively unknown professor in a
86:33
university into
86:33
Anto to being this worldwide figure
86:36
where people you’re obviously your
86:39
message is resonating with people in a
very huge way but the people that are
opposing you they’re vehemently opposed
what do you think that is collectivist
don’t like me collectivists what do you
mean by that
people who think the probably proper
unit of analysis in the world is a
political and B group oriented the
identity politics types don’t like me at
all and they have every reason not to
because I’m not I’m not a fan of
identity politics
I think things that’s why you’re
misrepresented but mentally there’s
other reasons I mean I came out against
this bill in Canada bill C 16 that that
hypothetically purported to do nothing
else but to increase the the domain of
Rights that were applied to transsexual
people but there was a there was plenty
more to that bill man let me tell you
and I read the policy dot the policies
that went along with it and it was a
compelled speech bill and so I opposed
it on the grounds that the politicians
87:36
are not supposed to leap out of their
87:37
proper domain and start to compel speech
87:40
it’s not the same as forbidding hate
87:42
speech I’m I think hate speech should be
87:44
left alone personally for all sorts of
87:46
reasons but to compel the contents of
87:48
speech is a whole new thing it’s never
87:51
been done before in the history of
87:52
British common law English common law
87:53
and it’s actually the Supreme Court in
87:56
the 1940s in the u.s. said that that was
87:58
not to be allowed and so it was a major
88:00
transgression and they said well we’re
88:02
doing it for all the right reasons it’s
88:03
like no no you don’t get it
88:05
you don’t get to compel speech I don’t
88:07
care what your reasons are and why
88:09
should I trust your damn reasons anyways
88:11
what makes you so st. like so that you
88:14
can violate this fundamental principle
88:15
and I should assume that you’re doing it
88:17
for nothing but compassion and that
88:18
you’re wise enough to manage that
88:19
properly it’s like sorry no I read your
88:22
policies I see what you’re up to I don’t
88:24
like the collectivists I think they’re
88:26
unbelievably dangerous and I have reason
88:28
to believe that so I think that when
88:31
push comes to shove if your unit of
88:35
analysis is the group and your worldview
88:37
is one group and its power claims
88:39
against all other groups that that
88:41
that’s not acceptable it’s it’s
88:43
tribalism of the worst form and it lead
88:45
to nothing but mayhem and desire
88:47
and part of the reason you’re doing it
88:48
isn’t because your compassion it’s
88:50
because you’re envious and you don’t
88:51
want to take responsibility for your own
88:52
life and I’m calling you on it and so
88:55
you don’t like me so I must be an
88:56
alright figure I must be a Nazi saying
88:59
your house needs a lot of work man
89:01
there’s a lot of rot in the in the
89:03
floorboards
89:04
the plumbing is leaking the water’s
89:05
coming in you’re not you’re not the sage
89:07
and Saint you think you are there’s so
89:10
much work you have to do on yourself
89:11
that it would damn near kill you to take
89:13
a look at it do everything you honestly
89:15
think that that’s why people are
89:16
responding to you in a negative way that
89:18
they only have their own personal
89:20
problems that they’re avoiding it can’t
89:22
possibly be that you represent to them
89:24
something that is either cruel or
89:30
something that is not compassionate
89:33
about people and their differences and
89:35
their flaws and their their humanity
89:38
because I think it’s certainly the case
89:40
that there the vision that’s been
89:42
generated of me is yeah that’s but
89:44
that’s what I’m getting at oh yeah
89:46
there’s that too but why is layers say
89:48
theirs well part of its the political
89:51
polarization you know at the moment
89:52
we’re viewing almost everything that
89:54
happens in the world through a political
89:56
lens at least the journalists at least
89:58
first of all first of all I gotta make
90:01
this clear
conditions oh no we can’t do that it’s
134:32
like the discussion you guys wanted why
do you continue and agree to have these
conversations that are gonna be edited
oh well that’s a good question the Jim
Jefferies one was another one yeah Jim’s
134:43
a friend of mine but I mean he gave you
134:45
a good question and you actually gave a
134:46
good answer you said actually I’m
134:49
probably wrong about yeah yeah and you
134:50
were talking about whether or not gay
134:52
people should whether someone should be
134:55
forced to bake a cake for cake for gay
134:57
people yeah I said forced to probably
134:59
not they said well what if they don’t
135:00
want to get baked a cake for black
135:02
people yeah and he said well actually
135:05
probably it probably should be forced to
135:07
yeah well probably wrong yeah well I was
135:09
probably wrong in everything I did and
135:11
that in that part of the discussion
135:12
because I hadn’t thought that issue
135:15
through enough to actually give a good
135:16
answer he didn’t expect that issue
135:18
because this is not something you talk
135:19
about commonly no and it’s it’s actually
135:21
complicated right I mean obviously the
135:23
whole I won’t serve you because you’re
135:25
black thing is not good but then again
135:27
you have you also have the right to
135:29
choose who you’re going to affiliate
135:30
with but
135:31
that’s complicated because it’s a
135:32
commercial circumstance and then if
135:33
you’re making a cake is that the same as
135:35
serving or is that compelled speech it’s
135:37
like oh my god these are border cases
135:40
that cause a lot of controversy I don’t
135:42
mean serving black people obviously
135:43
that’s not a border case but these cases
135:45
that caused a lot of controversy is
135:47
where two principles are at odds and it
135:49
isn’t exactly clear where to draw the
135:50
line and I’m not happy with you know I’m
135:53
not happy with my answer to that but I
135:55
hadn’t spent that like week it would
135:57
take to think through the issue and
135:59
really have a comprehensive perspective
136:00
you didn’t expect that to be a subject
136:02
anyway no no what how long did you talk
136:05
to Jim for oh I think about 45 minutes
136:08
maybe an hour first Oh two minutes yeah
136:11
well my daughter has told me and and my
136:14
wife as well my son as well and these
136:16
discussions we’ve been thinking about
136:18
how to handle the media which is a very
complicated question and one hypothesis
being don’t do interviews that will be
edited and I’ve thought about that and
and and and being thinking about it and
that might be the right answer it might
be the right answer going fooling it is
right and well it could it could easily
be although it’s the only way you can’t
be misrepresented just all the problems
that I’ve seen with you all of them come
from you being edited yes I mean there’s
complex subjects that people would
disagree with you on but when you look
at complete mischaracterizations of your
point
these have been established because of
editing yes well I guess the only
counter-argument is this and I mean a
lot of these a lot of these
opportunities come I’ve had
opportunities that are coming at me a
rate at a rate that doesn’t allow me to
think them through as much as I could
optimally but but then there’s another
thing which is it isn’t necessarily a
mistake to lay yourself open to attack
because sometimes it reveals the motives
of the attackers like that’s what
happened in the Kathy Newman interview
no that could have gone really sideways
like I was lucky there to some degree
because she interviewed me for 40
minutes or whatever and something like
that and then they did chop it down to
seven minutes or three minutes and it
was exactly what you’d expect and that
is what I expected after
away from the interview I thought oh my
god they’re just gonna chop this into
reprehensible segments and pillory me
but I walked away from it because there
was 50 other things to do but then it
was so funny because they did do that
and then they put up the whole interview
and the reason they put up the whole
interview was because they thought the
interview went fine it isn’t that they
knew that that was gonna cause commotion
not at all not a bit
he
141:23
journalists I’m certainly not taking
141:24
anywhere near the number of
141:26
opportunities that I have in front of me
141:27
right we are trying to be very careful
in picking and choosing but that doesn’t
always go well and it’s like it could be
that it could be that I shouldn’t do
anything that is edited at all that’s
certainly possible so well this is the
problem you speak in these you speak in
these long-form podcasts and interviews
and you get a chance to extrapolate and
unpack some pretty complicated issues
and compare them to other complicated
issues and try to find meaning and
middle ground and and try to try to
illuminate certain positions when you
expose yourself to editing you you
expose yourself to someone
idea of what the narrative should be and
how to frame your positions in it in and
dishonest way yeah and you’re seeing it
time and time again when it exposes the
142:23
problem with medium look I went to the
142:25
Aspen ideas festival last week which is
142:27
a whole story in and of itself but I was
142:29
interviewed there by a journalist from
142:31
the Atlantic Monthly and it was a
142:33
relatively long form interview I think
142:35
we talked for 40 minutes something like
142:37
that and it’s going to be edited
142:39
now I trusted her I trust her now
142:42
whether that’ll be well how that will
142:44
play out in the final edit I don’t know
142:46
because she won’t be the only one making
142:48
the decision right well the question is
142:50
should have I done it well look it was
142:53
the Aspen ideas festival it’s a
142:54
different audience it’s left-leaning
I thought well maybe I’ll go talk to a
left-leaning audience people are always
criticizing me for not doing that I
usually don’t do it because I don’t get
invited but so I went and talked to them
it’s like and Barry Weiss interviewed me
in front of the Aspen ideas festival and
that was long-form uncut and put on the
web and so maybe that was useful the
Atlantic thing well it might be good
we’ll see it does expose me to the risk
though because it’ll be edited so and it
was it wise to do it
look I’ve been fortunate so far despite
the fact that I’ve been taken out of
context at times and fairly significant
proportion of times but not the
overwhelming majority of times the net
consequence of all of that has been to
143:46
engage more and more people in a complex
143:48
dialogue as far as I can tell so that’s
143:51
the good that’s the good it doesn’t mean
143:54
the strategy that I’ve implemented so
143:56
far is the only strategy that will work
143:58
into the future we can also clearly
144:00
establish it you didn’t planning this to
144:02
happen this this whole thing that
144:04
happened from you opposing that bill and
144:07
then going to where you are how many
you
148:11
know what you’re talking about so you
148:13
take the listeners on a journey right
148:15
it’s an exploratory journey but
148:17
fundamentally what’s propelled you to
148:19
superstardom in some sense is not just
your ability which is non-trivial but
the fact that you’re on this giant
technological wave and you’re one of the
first adopters and I’m in the same
situation we’re first adopters of a
technology that’s as revolutionary as
the Gutenberg printing press and so
that’s all unfolding in real time it’s
like look at what’s happening yeah well
the spoken word is now as powerful as
the written word that’s never happened
before in human history and we’re on the
cutting edge of that for better or worse
that’s a very good way to put it the
spoken word is just power yeah and maybe
even more so why is it so accessible to
people that don’t have the time to read
well or stuck in traffic you know or or
and here’s another possibility maybe ten
times as many people can listen to
complex information as can read complex
information in terms of their ability to
process it sure could easily we don’t
know maybe it’s maybe it’s the same it’s
certainly easier to listen to a book on
tape for me than it is to read a book
yeah well so for us so the question is
for how many people is that true and I
would say it might be true for them for
the majority of people and then people
are doing hybrids you know so because
you can sync your book with audible
right so they’ll read when they have the
time but then when they have found time
which is also a major component of this
that that’s the time when you’re driving
or the time when you’re doing dishes is
now all of a sudden you can educate
yourself during that found time this is
149:40
a big revolution and the band blowing
149:43
out the bandwidth makes a huge
149:44
difference because while we talked about
149:46
that at the beginning looks like people
149:48
are more intelligent than we thought and
149:49
you and I are both and the rest of this
149:51
intellectual dark web that’s kind of
149:53
what unites us say is everybody has an
149:55
independent platform virtually everybody
149:57
they have an idiosyncratic viewpoint
150:00
they’re interested in having discussions
150:02
and pursuing for the furtherance of
150:04
their knowledge even though they might
150:05
have a priori ideological commit
150:07
Sam doesn’t I suppose I do and and Ben
150:09
Shapiro certainly does but they’re still
150:11
interested in having the discussion but
150:14
more importantly they’re capitalizing on
150:16
the long form and and the fact that
150:18
that’s possible is a reflection of this
150:19
technological transformation and the
150:21
technological transfer information might
150:23
be utterly profound it looks like it and
150:27
so that’s you know I’ve been trying to
150:29
sort this out because I keep thinking
150:30
why the hell are these people coming to
150:32
listen to what I’m saying it’s like well

150:33

I’m a guru you know I’m a sage it’s
150:35
something like that it’s like don’t be
150:37
thinking that first think if there’s
150:41
situational determinants first take your
150:43
damn personality out of it okay what’s
150:45
going on oh yes this is all fostered by
150:48
YouTube and fostered by podcasts what’s
150:50
so new about that
150:52
no bandwidth restrictions no barrier to
150:55
entrance possibility of dialog because
150:58
people cut up the YouTube videos into
151:00
chunks and make their own comments on it
151:02
it’s a whole new communication
151:03
technology also a lack of interference
151:06
by executives and producers and all
151:08
these different people that have their
151:09
own bodies unmediated yes unmediated is
151:11
giant yeah yeah well that’s all part of
151:13
the reason you’re so popular too is like
151:15
you just put this on like so you’ve got
151:17
exactly the right balance of competent
151:21
production because there’s nothing
151:23
excess about it like it’s competent but
151:26
no more than that I know that’s by
151:28
design but you also don’t edit it it’s
151:30
like what you see is what you get it’s
151:31
like everyone’s relieved by that we can
151:33
make our own damn decisions no I think
151:35
that’s very important if you’re gonna
151:36
have a conversation with someone that’s
151:38
honest you you can’t decide what to
151:40
leave in and what to take out and it’s
151:43
just well that’s partly also why I deal
151:45
with the press the way I do yeah if I’m
151:47
gonna have a full conversation it’s like
151:48
I’m willing to take the hits yeah and
151:50
and I understand what you’re saying but
151:52
that’s one of the reasons why it
frustrates me so much is that I see what
they’re doing and I’m like what you’re
doing is ancient what you’re doing is
it’s it’s this is what people did twenty
years ago thirty years ago for you can’t
152:03
really do that anymore
152:04
you can’t misrepresent people you used
152:06
to be able to if you were in the press
152:07
you could take people quote amount of
152:09
context do whatever the fuck you wanted
152:11
put an article about them they couldn’t
152:12
do a goddamn thing about it it happened
152:14
to me in nineteen
it was like ninety-nine
I did a I had a comedy CD that came out
and this woman wrote an article about it
and it just she just lied she lied about
my perspective she lied about the bits
she misquoted the bits she didn’t just
paraphrase them
she changed what the bits were to make
them you know misogynist or hateful or
whatever it was and in doing so I that
there was no recourse there was nothing
that I could do about them like wow I’d
never experienced that before I was like
this is stunning and then I found out
this person did that a lot and this is
what she did and there’s ultimate power
that comes at being the person who has
the pen being the person who has the
typewriter and you you’re the person who
works for you know the Boston Globe or
whatever the publication is that that is
something that existed forever you know
and that you had to be either a friend
of the press you had to play ball you
had you had a bend to their will you to
do what they wanted you to do and they
could misrepresent you and choose to
paint you in any way they like and it’s
one of the reasons why I don’t do
anything anymore
I don’t do any interviews anymore I
don’t do anything I don’t want to do
anything yeah this I do enough man you
153:28
want to know about me it fucking there’s
153:29
a thousand podcasts there’s more than a
153:32
thousand there’s I think there’s there’s
153:35
1,100 and there’s a bunch of other ones
153:37
three right let’s just it doesn’t make
153:38
any sense
153:39
yeah well that that’s that that it may
153:41
also be the position that I increasingly
153:43
find myself in I think it’s the right
153:45
position because then the
153:47
misrepresentations don’t exist anymore
153:48
so then the only problem is the dispute
153:50
over the actual ideological
153:52
conversations or the other the actual
153:55
concept but you know the thing is you
153:57
know you made a point there that’s quite
153:58
interesting it’s like we are in a new
154:00
media landscape so now if someone comes
154:02
out as a as a media figure with some
154:06
institutional credibility and
154:09
misrepresents its exposed and so then
154:12
the question is how much risk should use
154:14
shoulder to expose the proclivity for
154:16
media misrepresentation and the answer
154:19
to that might be some now it might be
154:22
moving you know maybe I’ve done enough
154:23
of that I mean it would be easier for me
154:26
in many ways if I just stopped doing it
154:28
but but there’s some utility and having
154:31
it play out and so
154:33
well so I’m trying to get I’m trying to
154:36
only take those opportunities that
154:38
appear to have more benefit than risk
154:41
and when I defining benefit
154:44
well the question is then what
154:46
constitutes benefit and I guess what
154:48
constitutes benefit is well that would
154:52
further the attempts that I’m making to
154:55
bring information to a vast number of
154:57
people that could conceivably help them
154:59
stabilize and improve their individual
155:02
lives that’s worth a certain amount of
155:03
risk
155:04
well it certainly increases your profile
155:06
increases your profile and even if you
155:08
know you have 60% of these people are
155:10
gonna get a bad perception of you 40% of
155:12
these people that never heard of you now
155:14
we’re going to understand who you are
155:15
because they do further investigation
155:16
yeah so there’s some benefit in that but
155:18
the negative I mean I get text messages
155:21
from random people that I was friends
155:22
with years ago let’s say this Jordan
155:24
Peterson is just such a lying sack of
155:26
shit and he’s this not only I don’t even
155:28
know who the fuck you are and then
155:30
second of all like why are you
155:31
contacting me you know I’m saying hi
155:33
you’re saying he’s a scam artist he’s a
155:40
fraud he’s in it and I’m like wow and so
155:43
they’ll see an interview you know like
155:45
the the Jim Jefferies clip which is a
155:47
minute long or whatever it is or the
155:49
Vice piece or the the initial Kathy
155:52
Newman piece and they just form this
155:55
determined position on you and then Reid
155:58
hit pieces on you and then this is where
156:01
they take their opinion this is where
156:03
it’s from it’s and it’s like these are
the last gasps of a dying medium I
really do I just I think too I don’t I
don’t think that people appreciate it I
think the people that are listening to
this that do appreciate long-form
conversations and with all warts and all
all the ugliness and the mistakes and
the critical errors and the the people
that appreciate that they they they have
156:29
a real hate for being lied to you know
156:32
because it’s it it changed when when you
156:35
try never being treated as if they’re
156:37
stupid yes
156:38
yeah which they aren’t yeah that’s both
156:41
it’s just it’s it’s deceptive when you
156:44
when you added someone and take their
156:47
words
to context and change them around you’re
being deceptive the New York Times did
that again this week they had some
philosophy professor from Hong Kong
University write a piece on me and he
took they quoted me it was a sentence
there’s like the first phrase was in
quotes and then there was some joining
words and then the second phrase was in
quotes and there was some joining words
and then the third phrase was in quotes
and the three quotes added up to a
statement that bore no resemblance
whatsoever to what I was saying how can
they do that in the New York Times that
seems to me to be something that should
be the the I don’t but they still I
don’t think they can do I think they’re
killing their brand so fast that they
can’t but it is so disturbing to me as a
157:24
person who’s been a fan of the New York
157:26
Times forever I just don’t understand
157:28
how they could allow that to happen how
157:30
could you allow your what what is the
157:33
gold standard for journalism how could
157:36
you allow it to become something that
157:37
willfully misrepresents someone they
157:39
never did to push an idea I never did
157:41
put my book on the New York Times
157:43
bestseller list it’s quite comical how’s
157:45
that possible oh they have rules which
157:48
they don’t disclose but one of them
157:50
apparently is well if the book is
157:51
published and counted and distributed in
157:53
the United States then it doesn’t count
157:54
even though they’ve had books like that
157:56
on the New York Times bestseller list
157:57
before and I think okay well is this bad
158:00
or good it’s like well it’s bad because
158:02
to the degree that I might want to be on
158:04
the New York Times bestseller list
158:05
although I haven’t been losing any sleep
158:07
over but you’re selling I know how many
158:09
books are selling yeah it’s basically
158:10
being the best-selling book in the world
158:12
since January you know it’s gone up and
158:14
down to some degree but right it should
158:16
be the number one New York Times
158:18
bestseller so they they they have the
158:20
reasons and but I look at that and I
158:22
think oh well you can only do that ten
158:24
times until you’re done like because
158:27
it’s a fatal error
158:27
you have the gold standard for
158:29
measurement you’re not measuring
158:31
properly you’re burning up your brand
158:34
you think well we’re the New York Times
158:35
so we can burn up our brand it’s like no
158:38
you can’t Newsweek is gone Time magazine
158:40
is a shallow is a shell of its former
158:42
self like the big things disappear and
158:46
they disappear when they get crooked and
158:48
ideologically rigid and so that’s what’s
158:51
happening at the New York Times not with
158:53
everyone there but with plenty of them
158:55
and they’ll die faster than people think
158:58
but it’s so confusing to me that
159:00
it didn’t used to be that yeah and now
159:04
it is and are they just responding to
159:06
this new world where you have to have
159:08
clickbait journalism and you know some
159:11
people are struggling to find people to
159:12
actually buy physical newspapers which
159:14
is well it’s a different thing it’s hard
159:16
to say like because maybe see it’s weird
159:18
because you don’t have to resort to
159:20
clickbait because these long-form
159:23
discussions are the antithesis of
159:24
clickbait right are they struggling in
159:27
terms of like how many people buy them
159:29
safer oh absolutely every newspaper the
159:32
newspapers in Canada went cap and hand
159:34
to the federal government for subsidies
159:36
about six months ago because they’re
159:37
dying so fast and so some of it is
159:40
they’re being supplanted by technology
159:42
that’s a huge part of it but as they are
159:44
supplanted they get more desperate they
159:46
publish more polarizing stories that
159:48
works in the short term to garner more
159:50
views but it alienates people from the
159:52
brand and speeds their demise classic
159:54
death spiral of a big of a big
159:56
organization and that’s going to clean
159:59
things out like mad I mean I don’t know
160:00
where CNN is in the Cable News rankings
160:03
now our cable show rankings but it keeps
160:04
falling but it’s falling in the rankings
160:07
as cable itself disintegrates and dies
160:09
why do you need cable TV right
160:12
no one needs cable TV the only people
160:14
who have cable TV are the people who
160:16
haven’t figured out yet that you can
160:18
replace it entirely online for like 1/10
160:20
the price with with much less hassle but
160:22
the art is people want a location they
160:25
can go to to find out what’s going on in
160:26
the world and this is the one thing that
160:28
they used to represent and you know I
160:31
mean I don’t think Fox News is any
160:33
better I think you just have these
160:34
ideological extremes left and right and
160:37
I remember very clearly watching the
160:39
election coverage before the election
160:42
like we were leading up to the election
160:44
I would go Fox News and then I go CNN I
160:46
just would go back and forth with them
160:48
on my cable yeah and I would just be
160:49
laughing I’m like what is really
160:51
happening in the world because I’m
160:53
getting to different stories I’m getting
160:55
Russia and I’m getting Hillary’s emails
160:56
this is I don’t know what the fuck is
160:58
what what is happening I’m getting pussy
161:00
grabbing and I’m getting you know
161:03
Benghazi yeah you know I’m this is what
161:05
I’m getting and I don’t understand like
161:06
why this is obviously ideological this
161:10
is well not just look it might be that
161:11
as the technology is supplanted
161:14
the ideological polarization increases
161:17
as the thing dies right there struggling
161:19
for anyone to pay attention and this is
161:21
the way they have to do it to any shore
161:23
and I think what’s happening on the
161:24
other side which is the side you occupy
161:27
say is that a new technology that’s long
161:29
form that deals with many of those
161:32
problems is emerging and it’s going to
161:33
emerge it’s going to be victorious
161:35
but in the me might already be
161:37
victorious in the meantime little baby
161:39
stuff still exists in the digital world
161:42
yeah you know and then you’re getting a
161:43
lot of the articles that are written
161:45
about you people are absorbing these
161:46
articles not from a physical form you’re
161:48
getting it from from digital yeah well
161:50
okay so then the sense is well do you
161:52
have fundamental trust in the judgment
161:54
of your fellow man let’s say and my
161:57
answer to that is yes because although
161:59
I’ve been pilloried to a great degree by
162:02
the radical types in the commentariat
162:05
and in that classic journalists though
162:09
comments with regards to me on YouTube
162:11
are 50 to 1 in my favor and and that’s
162:15
even the case when the ideologues put up
162:16
videos about me they’re designed to
162:18
discredit me and I’ve sold a million and
162:21
a half books it’s going to be published
162:23
in 40 countries and thousands of people
162:25
are coming to my lectures and so I would
162:27
say the attempts to discredit me aren’t
162:30
working so and now I think that’s
162:34
because that even like even if you go to
162:35
youtube you can see Jordan Peterson
162:38
smashes leftist journalists you know as
162:40
a clickbait thing someone’s taken a
162:41
two-minute clip from a video and they
162:43
put it out and they’re using that
162:44
clickbait headlines to attract attention
162:46
it’s like it does attract attention and
162:48
that probably even furthers polarization
162:50
but I think that most people enough
162:53
people that’s the prayer enough people
162:56
are going for the long form thorough
162:58
discussion so that the sensible will
163:02
will triumph that’s what I’m hoping for
163:05
the sensible will triumph no I agree and
163:07
I think that is what’s happened yeah I
163:09
think that’s why this fifty to one
163:10
number exists is that there but the the
163:13
number one in that 50 the 50 verses you
163:17
know the 50 people that are actually
163:18
understanding what’s going on and
163:20
agreeing with you versus the number one
163:22
that are trying to willfully
163:24
misrepresent you they still exist and
163:25
they’re loud you know they’re and
163:27
they’re
163:27
to be right and this is one of the
163:29
things that people love to do they love
163:31
to fight to be right instead of
163:33
examining their position and wondering
163:34
whether or not they are taking you out
163:36
of context and misrepresenting your
163:38
positions to the world willfully and
163:40
doing so in order to paint a negative
163:43
picture of you that does not accurately
163:45
represent who you are what you stand for
163:47
yes but by doing this virtue without any
163:50
of the work they’re also destroying
163:52
their own credits this is what’s
163:54
devastating it’s like the in they’re
163:55
trying to win they’re killing themselves
163:58
right well and that’s a good that’s a
164:00
good motif for the entire conversation
164:03
it’s like try hard to hard to win you
164:06
kill yourself you were talking last
164:07
night when we were when we were over
164:08
dinner you said that one of the most
164:10
deadly things for a fighter to do is to
164:11
overestimate his own position you’re
164:14
gonna get your abilities yes if you
164:17
overestimate your abilities you you’re
164:18
you’re in deep deep trouble because
164:20
you’re gonna get a wake-up call right
164:22
and objectivity is one of the most
164:24
critical aspects of development you have
164:26
to be you have to be objectively
164:28
assessing your strengths and weaknesses
164:30
at every step of the way that’s brava
164:33
bravado right I’m I’m trying to prove
164:35
how I’m so powerful I’m so powerful it’s
164:37
an ego shield and that’s why I was
164:39
saying that the ego is the enemy were
164:40
talking about right so I get you know I
164:42
want to get into this because this is a
164:44
I think this is a fascinating thing with
164:47
you personally that your diet you’re on
164:51
this carnivore dog yeah no okay so I
164:53
want to preface that with something I am
164:55
NOT a dietary expert so I’m not speaking
164:58
as an uninformed citizen yes well this
165:01
is anecdotal evidence from a human being
165:03
it is dealt with autoimmune issues yes
165:05
their whole life yes you have done this
165:08
for how long now I’ve been on a pure
165:10
carnivore diet for about two months and
165:13
a pretty very very low carb greens only
165:16
modified carnivore diet for about a year
165:20
so in the year and-and-and-and a
165:22
low-carb diet for two years so from the
165:25
time that I’ve known you I’ve known you
165:26
for what two and a half years now
165:27
sometimes yeah yeah when I first met you
165:29
you had much more weight on your body
165:31
yeah you look different yeah and you
165:34
were back then you were eating like the
165:36
standard diet right like normal people
165:38
yes pasta
165:40
bread yeah chicken whatever yes right
165:42
you shifted over to only meat and greens
165:46
I saw you and like you look fantastic
165:48
I’m like what are you doing
165:50
you’re like I changed my diet I only
165:51
meat in green so I was like wow that’s
165:53
fascinating well I felt like okay what
165:56
you’re doing is cutting out refined
165:57
sugars and all these different things
165:59
that are problematic preservatives all
166:01
the bullshit processed foods and you’re
166:04
having this extreme health benefit I was
166:05
like wow that’s really excellent you’re
166:07
showing great discipline then you
166:10
decided to take it to another place and
166:11
cut out the greens you know what was the
166:13
motivation for cutting out the greens
166:15
well all of the motivation for this has
166:17
been my experience with my daughter
166:19
because she has an unbelievably serious
166:21
autoimmune disease I just talked to her
166:22
this what is it called
166:23
well it’s rich arthritis but it there’s
166:26
there’s way more to it than that
166:28
but the arthritis was the major set of
166:30
symptoms she had 40 affected joints and
166:32
she had to have her hip replaced and her
166:34
ankle replaced when she was 15 and 16
166:36
and so she basically hobbled around on
166:38
two broken legs for two years in extreme
166:41
agony and that was just a tiny fraction
166:42
of the whole set of problems I just
166:45
talked to her this morning she’s in
166:47
Chicago looks like she has to have her
166:48
ankle replacement replaced so that’s
166:51
next on the horizon but but apart from
166:54
that she is doing so well now it is
166:55
absolutely beyond comprehension so she’s
166:59
she’s she’s very trim she had a baby but
167:02
she’s very trimmed she’s down to about
167:03
118 pounds she’s about five foot six
167:06
she’s just glowing with health all of
167:09
her autoimmune system symptoms are gone
167:11
all of them and she was also seriously
167:13
depressed like severely depressed way
167:16
worse than you think she couldn’t stay
167:17
awake for more than about six hours
167:19
without taking Ritalin
167:21
and she was dying and hide a cousin my
167:23
cousin’s daughter she died when she was
167:26
thirty from an associated autoimmune
167:28
condition so there’s a fair bit of this
167:30
in our family it was bloody bleak I’ll
167:32
tell you and my wife always had a
167:34
suspicion that this was dietary related
167:37
you know and well we did notice that
167:41
when Michaela was young if she ate
167:43
oranges or strawberries that she’d get a
167:46
rash like there were there were there
167:47
and then when she developed arthritis if
167:50
she ate oranges in particular that would
167:51
definitely cause a flare it was the only
167:53
thing we could see
167:54
the problem is is that in order to
167:56
identify a dietary component the
167:58
response has to be pretty quick after
167:59
you eat the thing like if it’s two days
168:01
later how the hell are you gonna figure
168:02
that out a lot of these responses appear
168:04
to be delayed for four days and last a
168:07
month so good luck figuring that out
168:10
anyways Mikayla noticed about three
168:12
years ago no more than that now five
168:13
years ago she was at Concordia
168:15
University and struggling with her with
168:18
her illness and and all the Association
168:20
associated problems she noticed that
168:22
around exam time she was starting to
168:24
develop real skin problems and my
168:27
cousin’s daughter who I mentioned had
168:29
really bad skin problems and wounds that
168:31
wouldn’t heal and that was partly part
168:32
of the process that eventually killed
168:34
her and she thought oh it must be stress
168:36
and then she thought wait a second I
168:38
really changed my diet when I’m studying
168:40
all I do is eat bagels all I do is eat
168:42
bread sandwiches she thought maybe it’s
168:44
the bread so she cut out gluten first
168:47
and it had a remarkable effect like a
168:50
really remarkable effect and then she
168:53
went on a radical elimination diet all
168:55
the way down to nothing but chicken and
168:57
broccoli and then her symptoms started
168:59
to drop off one by one like and and like
169:02
one of the things that happened is she
169:03
started to wake up in the morning she
169:04
started to be able to stay awake all day
169:06
when you’re only staying awake for six
169:07
hours with riddlin staying awake all day
169:09
that’s like having a life and so a whole
169:12
bunch of things improved then her
169:14
depression went away and I’ve had
169:17
depression since I was 13 probably and
169:19
very severe and I’ve treated at a
169:21
variety of ways some of them quite
169:22
successfully but it’s been a constant
169:24
battle and my father had it and his
169:26
father had it and it’s all just rife in
169:28
my family and my wife has autoimmune
169:31
problems and her niece a depression
169:32
define it oh oh would you define it
169:36
because that’s a word that’s a blanket
169:38
term yeah
169:38
well imagine imagine that you wake up
169:40
and that you remember that all your
169:42
family was killed in a horrible accident
169:43
yesterday you would feel that even
169:45
though the times wrong yes yes
169:47
just-just-just worse than that because
169:50
well one of the things Mikayla told me
169:52
was she thought well what’s it like to
169:53
be depressed
169:54
imagine you have a dog and you really
169:55
loved the dog and then the dog dies and
169:57
then about three years ago our dog died
170:00
and that was Mikayla’s dog and she
170:02
really liked that dog and she said that
170:05
was bad but it’s nowhere near as bad as
170:06
being depressed
170:08
and I asked her to at one point when she
170:09
was about 15 or 16 I said look you’ve
170:12
got a choice kid here’s the choice you
170:14
can either have depression or arthritis
170:16
which one I’ll take the arthritis
170:21
after she’d lost two joints so it was no
170:26
joke it’s no joke man it there isn’t any
170:28
no I wouldn’t say that I wouldn’t say
170:31
there’s nothing worse because worse is a
170:33
very deep hole right but it’s bad yeah
170:35
people prove you wrong right oh yes
170:37
definitely worse worse is a deep hole
170:39
anyways her depression went away all
170:41
these symptoms went away and like
170:43
radically so what changed her from
170:45
chicken and broccoli to carnivore well
170:47
she she kept experimenting and she got
170:51
very sensitive to all sorts of foods in
170:53
the aftermath of that too so this is why
170:55
I wouldn’t recommend that anybody does
170:56
this casually because we don’t
170:57
understand much about it but the upshot
170:59
was that well she kept she kept she kept
171:02
experimenting and she started to add
171:04
things back and take them away and
171:06
sometimes when she added things the
171:07
results were devastating she was like
171:09
done for a month she eats the wrong
171:10
thing done for a month all the symptoms
171:13
came back the depression came back she
171:15
thought that her whole dietary theory
171:16
was wrong because it lasted so long it
171:18
was so extreme and it’s like I took her
171:20
two years to figure out that really what
171:22
she could eat was beef and greens and
171:24
then she figured out that she could only
171:25
eat beef so greens themselves well look
171:29
so what happened okay so two years ago
171:32
she said dad you have tried this diet
171:33
because you have a lot of the same
171:34
symptoms as me now I didn’t have
171:36
arthritis but I had a lot of the other
171:38
symptoms and I thought oh Christ
171:41
okay Mikayla I can try anything for a
171:43
month she said try it for a month I
171:44
thought okay whatever I can hang by my
171:46
fingernails from the windowsill for a
171:48
month it’s like it’s just not that big a
171:50
deal
171:50
and so I eliminated I went on really low
171:54
carb diet okay so this is what happened
171:56
I had gastric reflux disorder and I was
172:00
snoring quite a lot I stopped snoring
172:03
the first week I thought what the hell
172:05
that’s supposed to be associated with
172:07
weight loss because I had gained some
172:09
weight I weighed about 212 pounds and
172:11
I’m I what six one and a half so that
172:12
was my maximum weight I stopped snoring
172:15
which was a great relief to tear me so
172:17
that just quit and that’s a big deal
172:18
right because if you snore you have
172:19
sleep apnea and then you don’t sleep
172:20
right it’s like not a good thing okay
172:22
next I started waking up in the mornings
172:25
I’d never been able to wake up in the
172:27
mornings my whole life I always had to
172:29
stumble to the shower and then maybe I
172:31
could wake up took me an hour and I felt
172:33
terrible and so
172:34
all the sudden I woke up it was like oh
172:36
look at that I’m awake in the morning
172:38
and I’m clear-headed and things aren’t
172:40
gloomy and horrible it’s like well he’s
172:42
not weird then I lost seven pounds the
172:44
first month I thought seven pounds
172:47
that’s a lot in a month and I’d already
172:48
gone for a whole year on a sugar-free
172:50
diet I didn’t lose any weight and I’d be
172:52
the exercise a sugar free but did you
172:53
cut out bread no no it was just no
172:55
desserts no sugar no and I thought that
172:57
might do it didn’t make any difference
172:58
at all seven pounds well then then I
173:02
lost seven pounds the next month then I
173:04
lost seven pounds the next month I lost
173:06
seven pounds every month for seven
173:07
months like I’d throw away all my
173:09
clothes I went back to the same weight
173:10
that I was when I was 26 and my
173:12
psoriasis disappeared and I had floaters
173:15
in my right eye and they cleared up and
173:17
then the last thing that went away from
173:20
me I was still having a bitch of a time
173:21
with mood regulation and that sucked
173:23
because when I changed my diet I didn’t
173:24
respond to antidepressants properly
173:26
anymore they weren’t working and so
173:28
although I was getting better physically
173:30
on a variety of ways like radical ways I
173:33
was really having a bitch of a time
173:35
regulating my mood and I was having
173:36
sporadic really negative reactions to
173:38
food when I ate something I shouldn’t so
173:40
that took about a year and half to clear
173:42
up and I was still really anxious in the
173:44
morning up to three months ago like
173:45
horribly and then it would get better
173:47
all day people said well you’re under a
173:48
lot of stress and I thought yeah yeah
173:50
I’ve been under a lot of stress for like
173:52
ten years it’s like it’s a lot but it
173:54
wasn’t any more stressful than helping
173:56
my daughter deal with her illness that’s
173:58
for sure that no this is something
173:59
different and she said to me quit eating
174:03
greens and I thought oh really
174:04
Jesus Mikayla I’m eating cucumbers
174:07
lettuce broccoli and chicken and beef
174:11
it’s like I have to cut out the goddamn
174:12
greens it’s like try it for a month okay
174:17
within a week I was 25% less anxious in
174:20
the morning within two weeks 75% and
174:23
I’ve been better every single day I’m
174:24
better now probably than I’ve ever been
174:26
in my life and I haven’t been taking
174:27
antidepressants for a whole year so I
174:30
don’t know what and I weigh 162 pounds
174:33
like I have no I’m and I’ve actually
174:36
gained musculature I’ve been doing some
174:38
working out but not a lot and so I can
174:42
sleep six hours a night no problem I
174:44
wake up the morning I’m awake if I take
174:45
a 15 minute nap that used to take me an
174:47
hour to recover for
174:48
that’s gone here’s the coolest thing
174:50
I’ve had gum disease since I was 25
174:53
that’s been serious enough to have I’ve
174:55
had to have minor surgical interventions
174:57
scraping and that sort of thing to keep
174:59
it at bay
174:59
it’s go on I checked with my dentist
175:02
before this last tour no inflammation
175:04
and that’s associated with heart disease
175:06
by the way gum inflammation and
175:08
gingivitis it’s a good risk factor heart
175:10
disease it means the systemic
175:11
inflammation is gone and it’s not
175:13
supposed to happen you’re not supposed
175:15
to recover from gingivitis and my gums
175:17
are in perfect shape it’s like what the
175:19
hell so here’s what happened I lost 50
175:21
pounds it’s like that’s a lot right I’m
175:26
nowhere near as hungry as I used to be
175:27
my appetites probably formed by 70% I
175:30
don’t get blood sugar dysregulation
175:32
problems I need way less sleep I get up
175:36
in the morning and I’m fine I’m not
175:38
anxious I’m not depressed I don’t have
175:39
psoriasis my legs were numb on the sides
175:42
that’s gone I’m certainly intellectually
175:47
at my best at the moment which is a
175:50
great relief especially doing this tour
175:51
depression is gone
175:54
I’m stronger I can swim better and my
176:01
gum disease is gone it’s like what the
176:03
hell and you’ve done you’ve done no
176:05
blood work so you don’t know what your
176:06
lipid lipid profile is or no I’ll get
176:09
that done again when I go back take any
176:10
vitamins no no I eat beef and salt and
176:13
water that’s it and I never cheat ever
176:17
not even a little bit no not soda no
176:19
wine I drink club soda well that’s still
176:23
water well you know when you’re down to
176:26
that level no it’s not Joe there’s
176:28
there’s club soda Joe’s really bubbly
176:31
there’s Perrier which is sort of bubbly
176:33
there’s flat water and there’s hot water
176:34
so that’s crazy well we ate last night
176:40
and I ate what you ate just we both had
176:43
that giant tomahawk yeah I had wine
176:46
though yeah
176:47
I’m curious about this I’m very curious
176:50
and I think you might try it but I eat a
176:53
lot of vegetables yeah but I don’t have
176:54
any problems like health problems hey
176:56
man like I’m not
176:58
disclaimer number two I am not
177:01
recommending this to anyone however I
177:03
have had however I have had many many
177:06
people come up to me on the tour and say
177:09
look I’ve been following your daughter’s
177:10
blog and I’ve lost like a hundred pounds
177:13
I think what you lost a hundred pounds
177:16
see I lost 100 pounds in six months I
177:17
talked to a woman yesterday she lost 15
177:19
pounds in one month she was 70 it’s like
177:22
this is all right here’s a question
177:25
why is everyone fat and stupid that’s a
177:29
question man because it’s new is there
177:32
something else it is it’s new and it’s
177:35
not a sedentary lifestyle that that
177:37
hypothesis doesn’t seem to hold water
177:39
there’s something wrong with the way
177:41
we’re eating and the what’s wrong is
177:43
that we’re eating way too many
177:44
carbohydrates I think but they’re never
177:46
on a no x8 shift the elimination of most
177:49
carbohydrates has made a big shift in my
177:51
life and I do cheat occasionally with
177:54
bread and occasionally with pasta I will
177:57
I will go off with ice cream and things
177:59
along those lines but most of the time
178:02
I’m just eating meat and vegetables most
178:05
of the time and then I have a cheat day
178:07
like you know once a week like yeah
178:09
especially if I go to dinner I’ll have a
178:11
little pasta and it doesn’t seem to mess
178:13
too bad but I do feel shitty after I do
178:16
it it’s like for simple mouth pleasure
178:18
I’m allowing myself to feel tired after
178:21
we’re tired yeah that’s a big one man
178:23
yeah but like I out yeah like well
178:26
really I can’t no and it’s so
178:29
interesting to like I can’t believe I
178:31
can wake up in the morning okay that’s
178:33
never happened to me in my whole life
178:35
and when I was a kid 13 12 I had a bitch
178:38
of a time waking up in the morning it
178:40
was just brutal I just thought that’s
178:42
how it was this is what I mean again I’m
178:44
not a nutritionist either but what’s
178:46
fascinating to me is I haven’t heard any
178:49
negative stories about people doing this
178:50
well I have a negative story okay okay
178:53
one of the things that both Mikayla and
178:56
I noticed was that when we restricted
178:59
our diet and then ate something we
179:01
weren’t supposed to the reaction to
179:03
eating what we weren’t supposed to was
179:04
absolutely catastrophic but it show what
179:07
did you switch to what did you eat
179:09
rather um well the worst response I
179:11
think we’re allergic to or allergic
179:13
whatever the hell this is having an
179:15
inflammatory response to something
179:17
called sulfites and we had some apple
179:19
cider that had sulfites in it and that
179:21
was really not good like I was done for
179:23
a month that was the first time I talked
179:25
to Sam Harris you were done for a month
179:27
oh yeah it took me out for a month it
179:28
was awful real yeah yeah so I would sell
179:31
oh and what so this is right before this
179:32
whole truth conversation with Sam Harris
179:35
at the Guthrie in the mud during during
179:36
it was I think the day I talked to Sam
179:39
was like the worst day of my life not
179:40
because of talking to Sam but it was
179:43
just physical Jesus I was so dead but I
179:45
didn’t want to not do it
179:46
cider like what was his own fights in
179:49
what was it doing there oh it produced
179:52
an overwhelming sense of impending doom
179:55
and I seriously been overwhelming like
179:57
there’s no way I could have lived like
179:59
that if that would have lasted for see
180:01
Mikayla knew by that point that it would
180:03
probably only last a month and I was
180:04
like a month yeah my fucking cider well
180:08
I didn’t sleep that that month I didn’t
180:10
sleep for 25 days I didn’t sleep at all
180:12
I didn’t sleep at all for 25 days how is
180:15
it possible that I’ll tell you how it’s
180:16
possible you lay in bed frozen in
180:20
something approximating terror for eight
180:22
hours and then you get up oh my god oh
180:24
yeah no and this is some fucking cider
180:26
from
180:27
that’s what we thought yeah I mean look
180:29
again I don’t know what the hell I’m
180:32
talking about okay this is all a mystery
180:34
to me
180:35
the fact that my daughter was so sick
180:37
see the one thing that I did know cuz I
180:39
scoured the literature on arthritis when
180:41
she was a kid the scientific literature
180:42
and because we were interested in the
180:44
dietary connection and the only thing I
180:46
could find that was reliable was that if
180:48
people with arthritis fasted their
180:51
symptoms reliably went away and that’s
180:53
actually a well-documented finding but
180:55
then if they started to eat again then
180:57
there were symptoms came back and I
180:59
thought well what the hell does it not
181:01
matter what they eat they can’t be
181:03
reactive to everything it’s like no but
181:07
they can be reactive to almost
181:08
everything and the difference between
181:10
everything and almost everything that’s
181:12
a big difference
181:13
and so Mikayla seems to be maybe me too
181:15
and hammies on the same diet because she
181:18
has autoimmune problems on her side of
181:19
the family so Mikayla seemed to inherit
181:21
all of them your skin looks better old
181:24
Jesus Joe I’m waiting whatever here yeah
181:26
yeah you you you look like more vibrant
181:28
it’s very strange thank you thank you
181:30
welcome
181:31
but the see my point is I you’re saying
181:34
that there’s a there is problems with
181:37
this diet but that doesn’t seem to be a
181:38
problem with a diet seems a problem with
181:40
deviating from the diet your body
181:41
becomes a custom with well one of the
181:43
thighs Isis that we’ve been pursuing and
181:46
there’s some justification for this and
181:47
the scientific literature is that the
181:49
reason that you lay on layers of fat is
181:52
because the fat acts as a buffer between
181:54
you and the toxic things that you’re
181:56
eating because fat is actually an organ
181:58
it has functions other than merely the
181:59
storage of of calories and maybe when
182:02
you strip out that protective layer then
182:05
you’re more sensitive to what you
182:06
shouldn’t be eating this is all
182:08
speculative hypotheses right or maybe
182:10
you sensitize yourself by removing it
182:12
from your constant diet I don’t bloody
182:14
well know well I would think it would be
182:16
much more likely that because you think
182:17
about people who are alcoholics they
182:19
develop a tolerance to alcohol
182:20
you know you get off of that and then
182:22
you have a drink and your tolerances are
182:24
shot and then you immediately have a
182:26
reverse reaction to the alcohol yeah
182:28
same thing with marijuana yeah when
182:30
people do it all the time you your body
182:32
becomes tolerant well I think I think
182:34
that the layering of fat on might be
182:36
part of the tolerance mechanism hmm so
182:39
it’s not merely a matter of
182:40
caloric intake it’s a matter of of toxic
182:43
telluric intake buffered by whatever it
182:45
is that fat is doing as a neuro
182:47
endocrine organ but again like I said I
182:50
said I’m out of my depth here but you
182:52
know the whole everyone’s out of their
182:54
depth the goddamn food pyramid was made
182:56
by the Department of Agriculture not the
182:58
Department of Health it wasn’t
182:59
predicated on any scientific studies
183:01
whatsoever
183:01
we should have we shouldn’t be eating
183:03
massive quantities of corn syrup we we
183:05
way too many carbohydrates Michaela
183:09
posted a paper the other day a doctor
183:11
has successfully treated type 1 diabetes
183:14
with a carnivore diet type 1 not type 2
183:17
so that’s bloody impressive yeah it’s
183:21
it’s very curious to me because you’re
183:24
talking about the one adverse reaction
183:26
which is when you deviated from the diet
183:28
yeah what I’m talking about is when I
183:30
read people’s accounts of trying this
183:33
diet it’s almost universally positive
183:35
you know but again that’s probably and
183:41
it’s the same with all these stories
183:42
that I’m collecting as I’m touring and
183:44
you know people lots of people have come
183:46
up to me and said look I lost 45 pounds
183:48
in the last three months I think yeah I
183:51
think what’s shocking to me I think well
183:53
what do you make of that say well I
183:55
can’t believe it well who can oh I
183:56
couldn’t believe it
183:57
fifty pounds it’s like first of all I
184:00
didn’t know I had fifty pounds to lose
184:01
you know I thought it was maybe 20
184:03
pounds heavier than I should have been
184:04
there should have been 185 something
184:06
like that I guess that’s 25 to 30 pounds
184:09
that was the maximum thought no no I
184:11
lost I meant 162 and I was at 212 so
184:14
what’s that fifty fifty pounds it’s a
184:18
lot of weight Jesus I threw had to throw
184:20
all my clothes away
184:22
it’s I can’t believe it when I saw you
184:24
last night I was like you’re so slim
184:26
like your your stomach is completely
184:28
flat and it’s and this is not a lean
184:31
mean fighting yeah man and you’re not a
184:33
an exercise fanatic it’s not like you’re
184:36
starving yourself it’s not like you know
184:37
and I’m not running 5 that’s another
184:39
thing I should say to people if you want
184:40
to try a diet like this you eat enough
184:43
meat and fat so you were not hungry okay
184:46
you can’t get hungry
184:47
you’re not eating enough if you’re
184:48
hungry and if you’re hungry you’re gonna
184:50
cheat and it’s gonna drive you stark
184:51
raving mad the other thing that was
184:53
really cool is like I really liked
184:54
sweets like I’ve kind of lived on peanut
184:56
butter sandwiches and chocolate milk
184:58
not really but that was my go-to food
185:00
you know both of which were terrible for
185:03
me but after I stopped eating
185:06
carbohydrates for a month the
185:08
carbohydrate cravings went away you know
185:11
last night when we were out for dinner
185:12
somebody ordered bread pudding and I
185:13
bloody love bread pudding with caramel
185:15
and and and ice cream so it was sitting
185:17
there and I could smell it like you know
185:19
I thought I could go all fantastic mr.
185:21
Fox on that bread pudding and just tear
185:24
it down in about 15 seconds but it
185:26
wasn’t it wasn’t as intense as a craving
185:28
for a cigarette if you’re Nick’s
185:29
ex-smoker it was like God be really nice
185:31
to eat that but like my appetite
185:34
declined by about 75% that’s been
185:36
permanent that’s been so there’s a
185:38
perverse thing for you
185:39
I eat way less and now I’m not as hungry
185:42
okay how does that make sense
185:44
well you’re not eating way less you’re
185:46
eating way less thing yes you have 30
185:48
ounce steak last night yes yes I’m doing
185:51
my best not to be hungry although it
185:53
didn’t look like I was 30 no no no
185:55
there’s a small 30 on the steak well I
185:57
think it starts out 30 ounces before
185:59
they cook it right loses a considerable
186:01
right right very fatty right but that’s
186:03
the other thing too you you must have to
186:06
get a lot of fat yeah well I eat fatty
186:08
cuts of steak and yeah Michaela is
186:09
buying fat directly from the butcher
186:12
store and we cooked that up cut it into
186:13
small pieces and fry it up till it’s
186:15
crispy Wow it’s actually quite delicious
186:18
it’s not bread pudding with ice cream
186:20
but it’s not funny
186:21
you mean Dino it’s so ridiculous well I
186:23
wanna I want your blood profile I want
186:25
to find out what’s going on with you
186:27
because one of the big misconceptions
186:29
when it comes to cholesterol and
186:30
saturated fat and food is that if you
186:33
eat dietary cholesterol that it affects
186:35
your
186:35
blood cholesterol levels it’s not it’s a
186:38
super common misconception well those so
186:40
the thing about clinical studies with
186:42
diet are virtually impossible to conduct
186:44
because you just can’t you can’t conduct
186:46
a proper randomly distributed controlled
186:49
experiment it’s too hard so a lot of
186:51
what we’re trying to do is pull out
186:52
information from correlations right you
186:55
can’t do it which is one of the real
186:56
problems with correlating meat with
186:59
cancer and diabetes and all these
187:01
different diseases is because people are
187:02
eating a bunch of shit with that oh yeah
187:04
and they have different lifestyle
187:06
profiles or like there’s just endless
187:07
numbers of confounding variables you
187:10
only need one con founding variable
187:12
that’s that’s relevant to screw up the
187:13
study right you can’t get that
187:15
information with correlational studies
187:17
we try because it’s impossible to do the
187:19
studies but how many people are
187:20
incredulous when they’re honey people
187:22
wouldn’t when they’re hearing about this
187:24
Oh everybody everybody well you or not
187:27
but you know you’re interested in this
187:29
sort of thing but they should be
187:29
incredulous like when people make absurd
187:31
claims is like oh well I had 50 health
187:34
problems and I stopped eating everything
187:35
but meat and they went away it’s like
187:36
whoo sure it’s like yeah well wasn’t you
187:39
dying so yeah and I see the results and
187:44
I know it’s an anecdote I bloody well
187:45
understand that and I’m highly skeptical
187:47
about all of this but I’m telling you so
187:49
that’s why I’m telling you what happened
187:51
to me and what happened to my daughter
187:52
and also what happened to my wife
187:53
because she’s Tammy was always in good
187:55
shape and she’s exercised a lot and she
187:58
reduced to the to the pure carnivore
188:01
died about a month ago she lost like 12
188:04
pounds
188:04
she was already slim she’s back to the
188:06
same weight she was when she was 21
188:09
she’s like 58 you know and she doesn’t
188:13
look 58 I can tell you that so it’s
188:16
really fascinating it’s really
188:18
fascinating because I just I as a person
188:22
who studied diet for many years I would
188:25
assume that you need phytonutrients I
188:27
would assume do you need vitamins
188:29
supplements like vitamin C for example
188:30
turns out if you don’t eat carbohydrates
188:32
you don’t need vitamin C ha who woulda
188:34
guessed how does that work I don’t I
188:37
don’t remember Michaela outlined a paper
188:39
for me
188:39
vitamin C is necessary for carbohydrate
188:41
metabolism but if you don’t if again
188:44
remember everyone listening I am NOT an
188:46
expert in this field right so
188:49
but but I want you to get your blood
188:52
tested because I think if be pretty
188:55
funny if it was in good shape yeah it
188:57
would be I mean I’d like to find out
188:59
what your nutrient levels are and where
189:00
they’re coming yeah I mean what what I’m
189:03
getting a little cramping in my toes
189:05
from time to time so I’m not sure about
189:07
potassium possibility that’s a
189:10
supplement it’s very easy which is why
189:12
I’m concerned but like and also minerals
189:15
you know you know in certain minerals
189:17
you’re getting from vegetables that
189:18
you’re probably not getting yeah well
189:20
this is all like look it seems not hard
189:23
to supplement that stuff though
189:24
colloidal minerals you know there’s some
189:26
mineral pills you could take plenty of
189:28
well there are plants are people who
189:30
basically lived on meat you know the any
189:32
what did the mess I basically did yeah
189:35
there some supplementation but not a lot
189:36
yeah and apparently if you do a
189:39
carnivore diet you’re supposed to eat
189:40
more organ meat and I do some of that
189:42
but not a lot but I can tell you like
189:44
I’m I mean well look I wouldn’t be doing
189:48
this if it wasn’t producing positive
189:49
results yeah it’s not like it’s fun
189:51
running for a while well it makes you a
189:53
social pariah mm-hm like let’s invite
189:56
the Petersons over oh yeah they don’t
189:58
eat anything oh we have other friends
189:59
that’s like well that’s how it works
190:01
it’s not malevolence right it’s just if
190:03
you’re a pain no one invites you out so
190:05
so I’m a social pain and an ideological
190:08
pain and now I’m a nutritional pain
190:10
because there’s no friends how difficult
190:12
is it when you’re trying to get
190:13
breakfast like what do you do when you
190:15
oh well lots of times when we were
190:17
traveling we cook so we’ll usually stay
190:20
in places where you can cook oh okay but
190:22
most places you can get a steak mm-hmm
190:25
and so that’s mostly what we do I’ve
190:26
been traveling in a Motorhome and so
190:28
we’ve been cooking in the Motorhome
190:29
and so not carry beef jerky with me
190:32
which we make what so yeah it’s crazy
190:35
you make your own beef jerky well it’s
190:38
like we have a dehydrator and you just
190:40
basically put salt on and throw in the
190:41
dehydrator so that works pretty well you
190:45
anticipate continuing this well forever
190:48
Cod forevers a long time I’d like to be
190:51
able to eat more things but I’m gonna
190:52
experiment with that very very very very
190:55
very cautiously I’m gonna add mushrooms
190:57
next because maybe I could eat them well
191:00
this is why I’m asking there
191:02
positive benefits that a lot of people
191:04
achieve and and experience when they
191:07
switch to a vegan diet yeah one of the
191:09
things it is is you get off of the
191:10
standard American diet with lots of
191:12
refined sugars and a lot of
191:15
preservatives a little shit and then you
191:18
find positive benefits Chris Kresser has
191:21
gone into depth about this but then over
191:22
time the nutritional bent deficiencies
191:25
in that start to wear on your health yep
191:28
and I’m wondering well it’s certainly
191:32
possible well certainly eventually this
191:34
diet will kill me no life will well
191:38
you’re right
191:39
biology will yes unless so it science
191:42
intervened
191:42
might be that for some people of Megan
191:45
dieters or vegan diet is preferable to a
191:48
standard American diet well for sure to
191:50
a standard American diet but also
191:52
there’s so much biological variability
191:54
yeah you know the things that bothers
191:56
some people don’t bother other people at
191:57
all and that’s that’s something that we
192:00
got to take into consideration yeah well
192:01
that’s why I don’t want to universalize
192:03
from my experience you know but but this
192:05
is what’s happened to me and this is
192:07
what’s happened to my wife and my
192:08
daughter
192:08
so and all of its being well with
192:10
Michaela it’s it’s miraculous I cannot
192:13
believe it the last time I saw it made
192:14
me cry I’ve never seen her look like
192:17
that she looks so good she’s so healthy
192:19
and all her other joints are not
192:21
experiencing any problem and she’s
192:22
taking no immunomodulators at all
192:25
no medication none and she was on him
192:27
fro Jesus yes more medication than you
192:30
can shake a stick at methotrexate which
192:31
is basically they use it to treat cancer
192:34
it’s a it’s a what’s what’s the cancer
192:36
treating drugs called whatever I don’t
192:39
remember at the moment she was on Enbrel
192:42
which really really helped but but later
192:43
opened to bacterial infections so she
192:45
always had pneumonia in the fall but
192:48
envel really helped and then heavy doses
192:52
of antidepressants and Ritalin and Jesus
192:54
how long has she been on this carnivore
192:56
diet oh god she’s only been eating meat
192:59
it’s got to be at least six to eight
193:02
months now Wow and does she get blood
193:06
work done uh yep and her blood work I
193:08
won’t comment on that I don’t know the
193:11
details of her blood work
193:14
I don’t know to answer that hmm it’s
193:17
fascinating I’m curious I’m considering
193:19
trying it for a while the problem is I
193:21
eat so much game meat you know what
193:23
there’s a lot get some fat yeah that’s
193:25
the trick there try it for a month see
193:27
what happens you what the hell a month
193:29
you know just a month ya know a months
193:32
not hard yeah interesting
193:36
all right let’s wrap this up all right
193:38
three hours it’s re 2:20 believe it or
193:40
not hey crazy prison it’s always a
193:42
pleasure great see one thing I want to
193:44
bring up ya for it how weird is this
193:46
whole association to you cuz it’s weird
193:50
to me the IDW yeah oh I D WI yeah
193:54
of course it’s election darkweb it is
193:56
it’s like I’ve been trying to puzzle it
193:58
out I mean I think what it is is a loose
194:01
collection of early adopters of a
194:02
revolutionary technology that’s what it
194:05
looks like to me and and it we found
194:06
each other because we’re all doing the
194:07
same thing but it’s also a bunch of
194:10
people that are honest intellectually
194:11
honest about their and and maybe don’t
194:14
even disagree even agree on folio
194:16
definitely but honest about perceptions
194:18
well and also I think interested in
194:20
long-form discussion yeah right and and
194:22
able to engage in it because otherwise
194:23
we wouldn’t be having the relative
194:25
success that we’re having in the in the
194:27
in the milieu you know and it got a name
194:29
and that’s kind of interesting and
194:31
that’s Eric though yeah that’s right
194:32
that’s Eric yes he loves it most
194:42
interesting about I love to rib him yeah
194:44
well it’s got this funny conspiratorial
194:46
element there that’s sort of true and
194:48
sort of mostly dramatic and was a
194:50
mathematician he’s always looking for
194:52
patterns codes yeah yeah I don’t know
194:55
what to make of it I mean things get a
194:57
name and then you think well why did
194:58
that get named and well someone named it
195:00
but yeah but the name stuck so it seemed
195:02
our proposed is some degree and well
195:04
what do we have in common most of us are
195:07
entrepreneurial most of us have our own
195:08
platform so we can speak independently
195:11
most of us are interested in long-form
195:14
philosophical discussions primarily not
195:16
political but but bordering on political
195:18
well just band’s more political oh yes
195:20
he’s the most yeah but he’s also very
195:22
sophisticated political commentators so
195:24
he borders on both the philosophical and
195:26
the religious yes so
195:28
and then we’re we’re we’re all the newly
195:32
new adopters of this new technology so
195:34
that’s enough to put us in a group and
195:35
then well it turns out that we’ve all
195:37
been talking to each other but part of
195:38
the reason for that is while we’re all
195:40
doing the same thing on the net so it’s
195:42
not surprising that we’re talking to
195:43
each other so I always go for the simple
195:45
explanations first you know it’s not a
195:47
movement exactly what it is it’s the
195:49
manifestation of a new technology and
195:52
then well do we have anything in common
195:53
that’s worth discussing that would make
195:56
this a viable group let’s say and the
195:58
answer to that is I don’t know you know
196:01
I’ve been touring with Ruben that’s been
196:03
good it’s been good to have a comedian
196:04
along and he’s also a good interviewer
196:06
he does the q and a’s with me and it’s
196:09
nice to have some levity in the mix
196:11
because of the conversations are the
196:12
discussions with the audience are very
196:13
serious although I can crack a joke and
196:15
I can’t tell a joke but if something
196:19
funny occurs to be I can say it and
196:22
sometimes it’s funny so that’s something
196:24
you know and we’ve been we’ve been
196:27
discussing a fair bit and I had good
196:29
conversations with Shapiro and Harris
196:30
for that matter so there is lots of
196:32
interplay between us but I think that’s
196:35
more because we we inhabit the same
196:37
technological space more than the same
196:39
ideological space apart from the fact
196:42
that we are actually interested in
196:44
dialogue fundamentally so we’ll see I
196:49
mean I’m watching it with curiosity are
196:53
you apprehensive do you think this is
196:54
sure potential downsides so there’s lots
196:56
of downsides to it sure there’s lots of
196:58
downsides I mean first of all you know
197:01
most of us are on an individual
197:04
individualistic path I’m not come I’m
197:06
not really much of a group guy you know
197:08
so am I in this group it’s like well I’m
197:11
pleased to be associated with you guys
197:13
that’s for sure but I don’t really know
197:16
what it would mean or if it should mean
197:17
anything or if it’ll screw up what I’m
197:18
doing or if it I don’t know anything
197:20
about it
197:21
but mostly I’m curious it’s like huh
197:24
this is a group I thought this is the
197:26
Rat Pack I thought what I walked into
197:28
the restaurant of us because we were out
197:29
last night was Ben Shapiro Sam Harris
197:32
Eric Weinstein Dave Rubin Joe Rogan and
197:35
me right and my wife Tammy and so we’re
197:38
all walking in there and I thought well
197:40
this is kind of like being
197:40
back in the 1950s I thought well I know
197:42
maybe it isn’t but that’s what came to
197:44
mind so I thought that’s funny and it’s
197:46
it’s it’s kind of cool and it’s
197:48
interesting and it’s edgy and all of
197:50
that but I’m not I’m not taking it
197:53
seriously
197:54
I’m not also not you know I’m not taking
197:56
it not seriously either
197:58
but I’m just watching I’m watching
198:00
everybody interact because it is a very
198:01
motley crew of people it is so and
198:04
they’re very different and so but it was
198:07
very much joy thank you okay so why did
198:10
you think it was enjoyable it’s good
198:11
conversation I mean yeah everyone that
198:14
was in that group has been on my podcast
198:15
or I’ve been on theirs and you know it’s
198:18
a fun group of really honest interesting
198:22
people that you Lear very peculiar
198:24
people specially Eric yeah he’s
198:27
listening right now I’m fucking with him
198:28
I love that guy but no I mean they’re
198:30
all it’s there everyone’s different but
198:33
everyone’s also unique and they all
198:34
bring a lot to the table and that’s
198:36
what’s interesting about it you know
198:37
think the weird collection yeah you know
198:40
I I don’t know what to think of it like
198:42
when Eric called me up about the whole
198:44
New York Times thing I’m like what are
198:45
you talking about right like why did you
198:49
do that
198:49
what I do what what did you be part of
198:51
the New York Times article I barely was
198:53
I just answered a couple questions but
198:56
there’s a review you’ve got a picture
198:57
yeah they didn’t direct they didn’t
199:00
obsess they shouldn’t taken a picture of
199:02
me I was dressed like I was going
199:03
onstage at the Comedy Store I didn’t
199:05
wear anything any differently they were
199:06
trying to make a big deal of it I’m like
199:07
look I don’t have any time this you want
199:09
to take a picture means is what I’m
199:10
wearing yeah and and we we did it on the
199:13
parking lot above the Comedy Store and
199:15
started to rain I go we’re done I got to
199:17
go I got to go onstage I can’t be
199:19
soaking wet you know and and then go
199:21
onstage and that was it
199:22
you know it was just okay so your take
199:24
on it is that it’s well it’s in turn is
199:26
its interest yes well this is the this
199:29
is probably another thing that unites
199:31
that group of people everyone in that
199:33
group of people is likely to get in
199:36
trouble because they find you too many
199:37
things interesting
199:39
right and it’s trade openness that’s
199:41
another thing that unites all of us yes
199:42
yeah and so and you know curiosity
199:45
killed the cat and so yeah but we’re not
199:47
cats true curiosity also built the
199:50
pyramids it did it did it and it saved a
199:52
lot of caps too
199:55
let’s end with that all right all right
199:57
Jordan all right pleasure my friend
199:59
chewy again see you always yeah yeah
200:01
that’s it folks see you soon
200:05
[Music]
200:10
[Applause]
200:12
[Music]

Niall Ferguson, “The Square and the Tower”

20:32
it reveals apart from anything else one
of the fundamental problems with network
structures they are bad at self defense
one reason we inclined towards
hierarchical structure through most of
history is that they are quite good at
defense it’s not the first time the
Russians hacked a network I tell the
story of how the most exclusive
intellectual network of all time the
Cambridge apostles the most lofty
high-minded intellectually extraordinary
network got hacked by the KGB this is a
wonderful example of how networks can
attack other networks three of the
Cambridge spies three of the famous five
were members of that society to which
John Maynard Keynes had belonged in the
1920s and Lytton Strachey but the 1930s
the KGB had penetrated it one of the
most successful intelligence operations
of all time much more successful than
what they did in twenty sixteen which by
the way backfired in their faces
completely and it takes a network in
this kind of a world to defeat a network
I’m quoting Stan McChrystal who learnt
that lesson the hard way in his battle
against al-qaeda in Iraq that it’s a
wonderful story that he tells in his own
autobiography it took that very
hierarchical institution the US Army a
long time to realize that it could not
beat its adversary in Iraq other than by
in some ways imitating its network
structure

25:45
but if you are interested in him there’s
a whole section on why it was that
network’s decided 2016 election and one
of my concluding thoughts is the real
lesson of 2016 is no Facebook no
he-who-must-not-be-named
without the network platforms not just
Twitter but especially Facebook the
outcome of that election which has
changed all our lives would have been
different you’re gonna have amassed the
great German philosopher said that
changes in the structure of the public
sphere were often the most decisive
things in history
and I agree with you
organ harbor Mass and this book is
really about changes in the structure of
the public sphere ladies and gentlemen
we are living through one of the
greatest changes in the public sphere
ever to happen
it is as profound in its
way as the change wrought by the
printing press
the printing press was supposed to
create a priesthood of all believers the
internet a global community if history
has anything to teach us
it is the sobering thought that we may
be just at the beginning of a period of
network disruption polarization crazy
stuff going viral and widening
inequality and if that makes you feel
nervous

30:18
story he said the real problem is that
because of the way that Facebook works
and also Google because of the way that
the algorithm is sending you stuff that
is designed to get you engaged on an
individualized basis according to your
data
we each inhabit our own private sphere
and the disaggregation that you describe
is further advanced than we know what
made the advertising so potent in 2016
not only by the way in the United States
it happened in the UK too in the Briggs
that referendum was the ability that the
brexit campaign had and the Trump
campaign had to target advertising very
very specifically
and then tweak the advertising and on
the basis of its effectiveness this is a
completely changed public sphere
political advertisements are no longer
things we all see and can discuss at the
watercooler

each of us begins to inhabit his or her
own reality with our own customized
newsfeed this is a deeply dangerous
development because it means the public
sphere as such ceases to exist or
retreats into the domain of traditional
media traditional media of course slowly
being destroyed because they lose with
every passing month their share of
advertising revenue to the network
platforms so I sense a more profound
crisis of democracy than we get
appreciate because we are focused on
what I think are relatively small issues
the Russian intervention the Russian
intervention wasn’t decisive the number
of advertisements and the number of
people who saw them were release really
small percentages of all the content
that was being produced indigenously by
Americans on Facebook not least the
people that you alluded to so I think
this is a deeply troubling development
and it’s where the book ends book ends
by saying if we allow this networked
world to advance it will transpire that
the real enemy of democracy is the
Russians the real enemy is actually the
way the network our platform algorithms
sub dividers dice and slice us and give
each of us our own version of reality
so
thanks for the great question yes sir
I’m going to ask quick question since
the you had me the power of networks
it’s one step to presume that there is
possibility of large-scale conspiracies
do you believe that large-scale
conspiracies capable to change the
history can happen or happened before oh
I’m so glad you asked I’m so glad you
asked that question because part of the
reason for
writing this book is precisely that
conspiracy theorists have dominated the
literature on social networks for such a
long time I was really struck when I was
researching this bias statistic that I’m
going to get right in 2011 just over
half of Americans agreed with the
statement that quote much of what
happens in the world today is decided by
a small and secretive group of
individuals and I belong to it I do I
must do because I go not this year
because I’m busy selling books to the
World Economic Forum in Davos it’s worse
than that I go to the Bilderberg meeting
it’s quite likely that having written a
book about the Rothschilds and Henry
Kissinger and knowing George Soros that
I am a member of the Illuminati who are
of course controlled by space aliens
wait stop you lost me at space aliens so
here’s the extraordinary thing most of
the work that you can find out there on
the internet on any of the things I just
talked about from the Rothschilds to the
Illuminati is by crazy people and the
conspiracy theory landscape is kind of
fun to wander through but it is entirely
divorced from scholarship in conspiracy
theory land you just make stuff up
which is I mean I guess it’s
entertaining but it isn’t history part
of the problem there is that real
historians who are more nervous and and
risk-averse temperamentally than this
historian shy away therefore from
writing about any of these things so you
don’t actually get many books about the
role of the Freemasons in the American
Revolution that are non crazy there are
relatively few rigorous studies of the
Illuminati and so forth so one reason I
wanted to write this book was that so
much that there is about social networks
s the conspiracy theory industry when
you actually do serious historical
research which you can do on say the
Illuminati you discover that they were
a small South German secret society set
up in the 1770s with the goal of
secretly infiltrating the Masonic lodges
of Europe and spreading thereby the most
radical doctrines of the Enlightenment
including atheism so the Illuminati did
exist but they’re only ever about 2,000
members they spent a lot of time doing
really strange rituals inspired by
Freemasonry and giving one another
strange code names and they were
completely shut down by the Bavarian
authorities in the 1780s making it
highly unlikely that they caused the
French Revolution as was subsequently
alleged so part of the point of this
book is to show that we can write the
history of those secret societies but we
must not exaggerate their power but that
isn’t really a conspiracy to rule the
world run out of Davos I know I’ve been
I mean and frankly if that’s what they
call ruling the world I mean they should

George Monbiot: How to Really Take Back Control

Every successful movement relies on a restoration story.

In 2008, no one had a new restoration story.

Globalization (no capital controls) has made Keynesian impossible. (25 min)

A growth-based system can not be sustained (27 min)

(28 min) A New Restoration Story

Why Silicon Valley Loved Uber More Than Everyone Else

Uber was the most valuable private company in history, but the public market has not been as enthusiastic. The reason explains a lot about how the tech industry works.

But some of it should go to Silicon Valley’s cultural divergence from the business reality. Investors loved the company not as an operating unit, but as an idea about how the world should be. Uber’s CEO was brash and would do whatever it took. His company’s attitude toward the government was dismissive and defiant. And its model of how society should work, especially how labor supply should meet consumer demand, valorized the individual, as if Milton Friedman’s dreams coalesced into a company. “It’s almost the perfect tech company, insofar as it allocates resources in the physical world and corrects some real inefficiencies,” the Uber investor Naval Ravikant told San Francisco magazine in 2014.