openpolitics.com

00:06

I am very excited to welcome yasha monk

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and EJ Dionne back to politics and pros

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Yasha monk is here to talk about his new

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book the People vs democracy why our

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freedom is in danger and how to save it

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as the cold war drew to a close in 1989

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Francis Fukuyama’s the end of history

00:27

posited that liberal democracy had won

00:30

and would be the final ideological forum

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but almost 30 years later we see that

00:35

this is not in fact the case

00:38

drawing on recent examples from the US

00:41

and Europe monk demonstrates how as

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liberalism and democracy come apart they

00:46

tend towards extremes of either an

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illiberal democracy under the sway of

00:53

populist demagogues or an undemocratic

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liberalism run by two technocratic

00:59

elites Yasha Monk is the author of the

01:02

age of responsibility and is a lecturer

01:05

Harvard as well as a senior fellow in

01:08

the political reform program at new

01:11

America

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he is joined today in conversation by EJ

01:15

Dionne

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a Washington Post columnist and

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co-author of one nation after Trump

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which we also have many copies of here

01:22

at the store so Melissa please give a

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warm welcome to Yoshi McKinney javion

01:33

Thank You Isaac I asked so I wouldn’t

01:36

have to so that was very kind of him

01:39

Thanks thank you all for coming and

01:41

thanks to a lot of old friends I see

01:43

here today I just want to say politics

01:46

and prose arranges some of the very best

01:49

conversations on the crisis facing

01:51

democracy and on public problems

01:55

generally and I think if we could locate

01:57

a politics in Pro and pros in every

01:59

community in the United States and

02:01

across the democracies we wouldn’t have

02:04

a yahoo in the pad to write this book

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I’m also really happy to be here because

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like many of you I have become a Yasha

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fan over the last several years I admire

02:15

his sharp mind and warm heart and both

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of them are

02:19

and he comes at his concern for a

02:22

liberal democracy and his commitment to

02:24

a greater degree of social justice from

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both personal experience and deep and

02:29

serious philosophical reflection that

02:32

earlier book is is really good too if

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they have it around here today he’ll

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sign them both I am sure if you care to

02:39

buy one I just what I want to do what

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we’re going to do today is have a

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conversation up here he and I have been

02:46

talking about this book for a while

02:48

indeed he was kind enough to visit with

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my students up at Harvard where I taught

02:53

last semester and gave them an advance

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look at some of the chapters of the book

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and we had a wonderful conversation

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there and he and I have had friendly

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discussions including a couple of

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arguments that I want to service here

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friend very friendly arguments won over

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populism and the other over the role of

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young people in the future and so we’re

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going to talk about that but first I

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want y’all should I have a chance to

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introduce the book I am going to read

03:19

every author should have a paragraph

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like this in the book that very neatly

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summarizes the core argument in this

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case of the first half of what the

03:29

problems are so I’m going to read this

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and then I’m going to ask Yasha to tell

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you a bit about himself because as I say

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his commitment on these issues comes

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from his own background he became an

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American citizen last year correct we

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should welcome Yasha with a round of

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applause and we are very lucky to have

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him and I want him to talk about sort of

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his background a bit and how he came to

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write this book then we will get to some

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of the issues but first my dramatic

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reading once upon a time liberal

04:04

democracies could assure their citizens

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of a very rapid increase in their living

04:09

standards now they no longer can

04:12

once-upon-a-time political elites

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control the most important means of

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communication and could effectively

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exclude radical views from the public

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sphere

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now political Outsiders can spread lies

04:23

and hatred with abandon and once upon a

04:26

time the homogeneity of their citizens

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or at least a see for a shil hierarchy

04:31

was a big part

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of what held liberal democracies

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together now citizens have to learn how

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to live in a much more equal and diverse

04:39

democracy

04:40

welcome Yasha and please tell folks a

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bit about yourself and how you came to

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write this book like at what moment

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after how many hours after either breaks

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it or Trump’s election did you decide

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well well I think what sort of

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interesting surprising is what I started

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to write this book before I’ve a brexit

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Oh Trump happened um other people

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weren’t so interested in me writing the

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book at the time because they kind of

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thought I was a little bit of a weird

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crank when I started to to argue three

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four years ago

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there’s real warning sign for our

05:16

democracies not assume United States but

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in big parts of Europe as well

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people always accuse me of being a

05:22

Cassandra um and I wanted to respond to

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I didn’t because I realized oh just give

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me you know dig me even deep into the

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hole Cassandra was right damn it that’s

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the whole point of Cassandra that’s his

05:33

next book that’s my Cassandra was right

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dammit exclamation mark there uh you

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know I mean why is it that our sort of

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more life to those dangers then when

05:43

some other people I think a mix of a

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personal story and some academic

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interest of mine I mean so you know

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personally my family has had a bad habit

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of being in the wrong place at the wrong

05:54

time for these free generations so I’ve

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seen you know and my great grandparents

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my grandparents my parents how you know

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the political situation ended up being

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quite differently from what they

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expected and how they affect that

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affected their own lives so I think you

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know to me the idea that political

06:11

systems can turn and then that can have

06:14

quite tragic consequences in a very

06:15

personal way is is concrete rather than

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abstract and that I think probably

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anticipating a little bit what part of

06:23

our conversation might be later

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separates me from many other people my

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generation who grew up in United States

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or other people who grew up in big parts

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of Europe the other thing is where as an

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academic I started to think about how

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people actually feel about our political

06:37

system now what people have known for a

06:40

long time is that approval ratings for

06:44

Congress and for particular politicians

06:46

keep getting lower that participation

06:49

and former politics gets lower and also

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some united states but also in Europe

06:53

that people the approval ratings for for

06:57

Congress of Supreme Court for presidency

06:59

have been sinking but forty years ago

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people trusted politicians and now we

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don’t anymore and majority so that was

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all clear it with a colleague of mine of

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metaphor we started to look at how do

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people actually feel about a political

07:12

system itself so do they say it’s

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important to him to live in a democracy

07:16

are they open to a foreign alternatives

07:19

to democracy and we started to see that

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those attitudes had started to shift as

07:24

well but actually fewer young people now

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say it’s really important to him to live

07:29

in a democracy but the number of people

07:31

who say I want a strongman leader who

07:33

doesn’t have to bubble of parliament or

07:34

elections or even I think army rule is a

07:37

good system of government has gone up

07:39

significant and so you know when we saw

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that a few years before Trump was

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elected we really started to worry about

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what’s going on when you look back at

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we’re opinion was in a lot of the West

07:54

after the fall of the Berlin Wall and

07:57

loose in his wonderful book has a

07:59

wonderful description of journeying to

08:02

the wall very excited with a bunch of

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students and there was a feeling that

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aha liberal democracy has finally

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triumphed a lot of these problems have

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disappeared and there is nothing but

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success on the horizon what happened

08:17

what happened and why were these

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predictions so wall what were people

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missing in 1989 or did developments

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afterward change yeah so the obvious way

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to frame this is around Francis

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Fukuyama’s argument the end of history

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which said that for the first time in

08:37

living memory there was no real

08:38

ideological competitor to liberal

08:40

democracy in the 19th century that been

08:42

absolute monarchy but some degree be in

08:44

favor Christie but 20th century was

08:46

fascism and communism all of those had

08:48

failed and in 1989 though Fukuyama have

08:52

a claim for democracy was everywhere

08:54

that there would no longer be any

08:55

historical event so it’s a miss reading

08:56

what he was saying he said

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yes sir he was saying look there’s no

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real system that people would rather

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live in people are deeply committed to

09:07

liberal democracy of the system and so

09:09

we don’t really have to worry about its

09:11

persistence now even some people who are

09:13

skeptical of Fukuyama actually bought

09:15

that cool faeces for big parts of North

09:19

America and Western Europe so political

09:21

scientists who would you know were very

09:22

empirical and counting you know numbers

09:25

and playing around and Stata and are

09:26

they

09:27

they might afford over the end of

09:29

history you know what a silly phrase but

09:31

they actually had the same belief so

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there’s a famous article by someone

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called Adam Przewalski’s in the 90s who

09:36

said look at all of the democracies that

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have over 15,000 dollars GDP per capita

09:40

but have had at least two changes of

09:43

government for free and fair elections

09:45

well you know what all of those places

09:47

are safe you no longer have to worry

09:49

about the persistence of a democratic

09:51

system in those countries

09:55

and those reliant on the assumption that

09:57

democracy had become consolidated which

09:59

is a phrase in literature which would

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mean when was the only game in town and

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that’s precisely what we set out to test

10:05

and what we described what I described

10:06

with some degree in this book which is

10:08

is it still true but everybody gives us

10:10

importance to democracy is it still true

10:12

that people reject versus alternatives

10:14

to moxie out of hand and most

10:16

importantly are there any politicians

10:18

and political movements that will

10:22

actually have real power in the system

10:23

and reject the most basic rules and

10:26

norms of liberal

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office for a long time that’s no longer

10:30

the case that populace had been rising

10:32

not just here and there and American

10:34

primaries where they sort of shut up for

10:37

a little moment and when crashed again I

10:39

think of all of the extreme candidates

10:41

but briefly led the pack and Republican

10:43

primary fields not just in 2016 but in

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2012 and 2008 and so on so forth but you

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also saw a very steady rise of populism

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in Europe for a long time in a paper

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with some news here today Martin Hammond

10:57

we show that the share of populist

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parties in Europe has increased from

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about 8 percent in mere 2000 to 25

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percent more reason and so the whole

11:10

world on which we based the conviction

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but we don’t have to worry about

11:15

democracy anymore after 1989 went far

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beyond and I think it’s now been

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challenged in ways would go far beyond

11:23

Donald Trump but a few weeks back a

11:25

Brahmin and was here to talk about his

11:27

book to fight against the age he thinks

it’s actually important that we call

this new right-wing nationalism by its

name and he believes that aim is fascism

do you agree with that or or not and how

do you analyze what is the nature of

this ideology

I disagree for up on this and and

there’s a number of reasons for that

I’m the first is that

11:56

it’s really easy to think of the

11:59

collapse of democracy as requiring

12:00

something like what happened in Germany

12:02

in the nineteen thirties

12:04

right so we’re only going to lose

12:06

democracy if lots of people give a

12:08

Hitler salute you know by riebeck ugly

12:10

black boots and ran from the center of

12:13

town of tortures right and some of that

12:16

happens some of that exists and when you

12:17

look at Charlottesville there’s

12:18

obviously people who quite openly are

12:21

fascists in our country today but you

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know what despite all of horribleness of

12:26

what happened in Charlottesville that

12:27

was the only danger we faced I wouldn’t

12:30

be too concerned I wouldn’t be writing

12:32

this me what you see fo in countries

12:34

from Russia to to Turkey and countries

12:39

today like Poland and Hungary is there

12:41

as many other ways in which democracy

12:43

can come under real attack and those are

12:45

a lot much more subtle it’s not people

12:47

who say I’m a fascist I want to get rid

12:50

of democracy it’s people who say you

12:52

know what you’ve been disempowered

12:54

people have taken a real power away from

12:56

you and I’m the only real Democrat I

12:59

alone actually represent the people

13:01

I am your voice as Donald Trump said in

13:02

the Republican National Convention so

13:05

give me your votes what I can return

13:07

power to the people and that I think is

13:09

the real danger to democracy at the

13:11

moment so calling that fascist is makes

13:14

us lazy because we think well there’s

13:16

nobody in in black boots and torches in

13:18

the streets so why should we worry and I

13:20

think it makes it more difficult for us

13:23

to understand the specific nature of

13:25

populism now here we have a disagreement

13:28

as perhaps some of you saw so AJ is

13:31

excellent column and Washington Post I’m

13:32

about a week ago in which he basically

13:35

says there’s good forms of populism

13:37

now you know the word populism is a

13:39

little confusing um and and you know

13:42

there are some people who have

13:43

historically been quote populist who has

13:45

sometimes called populist now who I

13:47

think can contribute a certain

13:48

corrective to the system but the way

13:50

that I describe populism in this book

13:52

and the way that I can make sense of it

13:54

I don’t think there is such a good

13:56

fingers good and the reason the

13:58

following word is a populist at heart

14:00

it’s not somebody who says the certain

14:03

things wrong with our politicians and

14:05

some of them are corrupt and some of my

14:06

self-serving and it’s really important

14:08

that we win in order to make through

14:09

that’s a normal part of Porter’s those

14:12

Barack Obama as much as anybody else

14:13

right talk about a rigged system and so

14:15

on there’s nothing dangerous about that

14:18

but what populist s– have uniquely is

14:21

that they say only I truly represent the

14:26

people the only reason why we have any

14:29

real political problems at the moment is

14:30

the politicians are corrupt and

14:31

self-serving and I can fix all of that

14:34

because I stand for ordinary people I

14:36

manage to channel their wisdom and their

14:39

views and this means with anybody who

14:42

opposes me who disagrees with me is by

14:44

definition illegitimate so give me all

14:47

of the power and if the courts are going

14:49

to stand up to that because what I’m

14:51

doing is unconstitutional then they are

14:54

being an American

14:56

right if the media is criticizing me

14:59

then they’re enemies of the people if

15:01

your position is trying to use its

15:03

institutional prerogatives to limit how

15:06

much I can do then they are traitors and

15:09

this is true of populist in different

15:12

countries and of different stripes

15:14

Donald Trump and recive erawan and

15:16

Google Shabbos don’t have much in common

15:18

for example Donald Trump doesn’t seem to

15:20

be overly fond of Muslims whereas

15:22

receipe Erawan doesn’t seem to be overly

15:24

fond of anybody who’s not a Muslim but

15:27

they share this trait they share the

15:29

trait of saying the only reasons why we

15:32

have political problems as bad feelings

15:34

are corrupt

15:34

I represent ordinary people and I can

15:37

solve it but to do that you have to give

15:39

me all of the power because anybody who

15:41

disagrees with me is a traitor is

15:43

legitimate and that kind of populism

15:46

will always be a danger to the basic

15:50

principles of democracy and that’s why I

15:51

think is always going to be dangerous I

15:53

don’t want to pursue this too far

15:54

because I want yeah should I have a

15:56

chance to present the rest of his book

15:57

but just for fun I want to just take

15:59

this one one time which is in a way is

16:02

your argument about populism in

16:04

contradiction to the argument about

16:05

fascism because what Rob’s argument is

16:08

is you don’t have to wear Jack boots are

16:10

seeing the horse vessel song to be a

16:12

fascist and that in fact the danger may

16:15

be hidden from us because people are

16:17

doing it in the name of democracy and

16:19

after all the word VOC that Hitler

16:21

invoked was the people and so there is

16:25

so I just want to pursue that and then

16:28

on the populist side I I would basically

16:32

assert and we that this why we probably

16:34

shouldn’t go too long on this populism

16:36

is an essentially contested concept and

16:39

I think that there are those who see

16:41

populist more in ameri in the terms of

16:44

our old American populist movement which

16:46

was largely a democratizing movement and

16:49

I think there’s actually a difference

16:50

across the oceans on this as well which

16:53

is I think Europeans because of the

16:56

nature of the right-wing populism you

16:58

face are more likely to see populism as

17:01

anti-democratic so just take that and

17:03

then I want to just pursue a couple

17:05

arguments in the book and I want to let

17:06

this learn an audience participate as

17:09

well

17:10

so look like certainly certain

17:11

similarities between some forms of

17:13

populism in some forms of fascism but

17:15

but very essential differences as well

17:17

one of them is how openly hostile

17:19

fascism is to democracy which yes the

17:22

fact but I agree the problems covertly

17:24

hostile to to democracy but but fascism

17:27

has always been openly hostile and

17:29

that’s an important thing to understand

17:30

and so if we think is vis like fascism

17:33

we’re gonna say well Donald Trump is not

17:34

overtly hostile to democracy so why does

17:37

anybody worry we all Toronto firms as

17:39

some people have charge right and that’s

17:40

that’s a real mistake that really makes

17:42

it more difficult for us to understand

17:43

there’s also crucial difference in the

17:45

kind of forms of political regime that

17:48

those countries tend to Institute so

17:51

there was an important distinction

17:52

between dictatorships and totalitarian

17:57

regimes right most fascist systems tend

18:00

to be totalitarian regimes which is to

18:03

say that every sphere of politics on

18:06

society becomes deeply imbued with

18:10

ideological fervor you cannot have a

18:13

chess club that isn’t organized along

18:16

fascist lines right and that is the same

18:18

in communist um now I think populist

18:22

don’t tend to erect regimes like that

18:23

when you think of Turkey when you think

18:25

of Russia there are places where as long

18:28

as you don’t criticize the government as

18:30

long as you don’t pose a threat to the

18:33

dictator you get to do whatever you want

18:35

and so again I think populism and

18:37

fascism actually erect systems that are

18:40

very different as well

18:41

now look I agree with you this concept

18:43

of essentially contests that is

18:45

important right there’s no one natural

18:47

way of defining democracy there’s no one

18:49

natural way of defining populism in a

18:52

way it is a question of which definition

18:55

allows us to understand what’s going on

18:58

in the world the best at the moment and

19:00

what I would say is that for I

19:03

understand was different kinds of

19:04

movement called populist in American

19:06

history I don’t think that that is very

19:09

useful as a term at the moment because

19:11

what we need to understand is why is all

19:13

of this stuff happening around the world

19:15

why do you see erawan and Turkey why do

19:17

you see Victor Arbonne in Hungary why do

19:19

you see marine lepen in France why do

19:21

you see Donald Trump in the United

19:22

States all of the same

19:23

and the best way of making sense of that

19:26

I think is to use my understanding and

19:28

be understanding some of the economic

19:29

literature on populism because that

19:32

precisely brings out with very important

19:34

commonalities between people who also

19:36

have some important differences to each

19:37

other let’s go through some of the core

19:41

arguments of the book you talk and and

19:44

let’s sort of start with economics

19:48

versus immigration and we’ve talked

19:50

about this before one of the hardest

19:51

things I think to sort through is

19:54

whether this surge was caused by a

19:57

globalized economy economic distress the

20:01

decline of upward mobility particularly

20:03

here in the US or whether the driving

20:07

force even more than economics was a

20:10

fear of widespread immigration of

20:12

backlash against widespread immigration

20:15

on the side of the immigration the

20:17

primacy of immigration would be the idea

20:21

that some of these movements have shown

20:22

up in places like the Netherlands which

20:25

have fairly well distributed economic

20:27

growth relative to other countries but

20:32

I’d like you to sort of parse economics

20:35

versus immigration and maybe give people

20:38

a sense of some of what you talk about

20:40

as solutions to these dilemmas so first

20:44

of all in trying to understand why is

20:46

all of this happening at the moment I

20:48

took inspiration from a story that at

20:50

first has nothing to do with populism or

20:52

Donald Trump so it’s a nice little

20:53

respite told by Bertrand Russell he said

20:57

well once upon a time there was a

21:00

chicken on a farm and it led a very nice

21:03

life it was a kind of chicken we’d all

21:04

like to eat for dinner which is to say

21:06

that you know it’s got to run around

21:07

freely and do whatever it wanted um and

21:12

and but all the other animals on the

21:14

farm kept warning it and said be careful

21:16

one day the farmer is gonna come and

21:20

kill you I’m a chicken said what are you

21:22

talking about that farmers be nice to me

21:24

all of my life he’s always fed me and

21:27

muttered some encouraging words

21:28

why would things suddenly be so

21:30

different well Russell and his nice wit

21:33

says that eventually of course but

21:35

chicken

21:36

did learn but he was wrong the the

21:38

farmer came to ring with chicken snack

21:41

showing that more sophisticated views as

21:44

the uniformity of causation would have

21:45

been to a chicken’s benefit what does he

21:48

mean by that right while the most

21:50

sophisticated views of uniformity of

21:52

causation what what he meant is quite

21:53

simple that scope conditions on how the

21:55

social world works right as long as the

21:58

chicken was too thin to be taken to a

21:59

market the farmer had an incentive to

22:01

keep feeding it once it was big enough

22:03

to fetch a decent price how he behaved

22:07

was going to change now why is it that

22:10

liberal democracy has been incredibly

22:11

stable around the world for the last 50

22:13

or 60 years and now we start to see it

22:15

seemingly being less and less stable

22:17

well let’s look at the scope conditions

22:19

what was truthful is past 50 60 years

22:22

there is no longer true and it seems to

22:24

me would best three big things there and

22:26

we’re sometimes put in competition with

22:27

each other but all of the interesting

22:29

phenomena in human history have always

22:31

had more than one cause the world is not

22:33

mono causal right so the first is living

22:38

standards in the United States from 1945

22:40

to 1960 the living standards of the

22:43

average American doubled from 1960 to

22:46

1985 we doubled again since 1985 they’ve

22:50

been stagnant now that makes a real

22:53

difference about how people perceive

22:55

politics they used to say well you know

22:58

what um I don’t love politicians you

23:01

know his belt with his Washington DC

23:03

stuff you know it’s a little weird but

23:05

in the end they seem to be delivering

23:07

for me right they seem to be sticking to

23:09

their end of a deal so let’s give him

23:11

the benefit of a doubt now people are

23:14

saying I’m allowed to swear in this

23:17

bookstore yeah that’s where one since he

23:19

was a shot off my microphone um now

23:21

people are saying you know what I’ve

23:23

worked really hard all of my life I

23:24

don’t have much to show for it I think

23:26

my kids are gonna be worse off than me

23:27

let’s throw some against who won’t

23:29

see what sticks how bad can things get

23:30

how mile that is I know our country if

23:36

it weren’t for Trump would have gotten a

23:38

better reaction and now look the

23:41

counter-argument against this and this

23:43

has been reserved researched a lot in

23:45

the in the media and so on is to say oh

23:48

but it’s not necessarily true

23:50

people who voted for their own Trump

23:52

were much poorer than those who voted

23:53

for Hillary Clinton grant it but it’s a

23:56

little bit more complicated than that

23:58

that’s it’s really bad test of whether

24:00

the economic causes matter what’s

24:02

interesting is that not just in the

24:03

United States but in many parts in many

24:06

countries publicity doing very well

24:07

around the world you see a very clear

24:09

distinction between urban and

24:13

economically dynamic parts of a country

24:16

and others so in the United States

24:18

Donald Trump won over two-thirds of

24:20

American counties but something like

24:22

one-third of America’s GDP he did much

24:25

better in parts of a country where

24:28

there’s very little recent investment

24:29

where people are less educated even

24:32

where the share of jobs were the subject

24:34

to automation in the coming decades is

24:37

much higher because people there realize

24:40

I might still be doing fine but I have a

24:43

lot to fear from the future now my

24:47

second course has to do with with

24:50

culture and ethnicity and immigration

24:51

this is really stark in Europe where

24:54

most countries became stable democracies

24:57

at a time when there were more

24:59

homogeneous than it previous parts of

25:03

the history because of a tragic effects

25:04

of World War two and in which they had a

25:08

clear mono-ethnic monocultural

25:10

conception of who Rudy blocks when you

25:12

asked a German where I grew up an

25:15

Italian and a Swede in 1960 hue really

25:19

belongs to the country it would have

25:20

been obvious that it’s somebody who’s

25:21

descended genetically from the same set

25:24

of people but it certainly isn’t

25:25

somebody who’s brown or black somebody

25:27

who’s Muslim or Hindu now thankfully

25:30

that started to change over the last 50

25:32

or 60 years there has been a lot of

25:34

immigration and people have actually

25:36

started to adapt more liberal and

25:38

understandings of citizenship and of

25:40

belonging there’s also a strong reaction

25:43

against that and for either and for

25:45

Mirman condone that reaction and none of

25:48

us should I think is actually easy to

25:50

understand why that would be the case if

25:52

you say hey I may not be the richest guy

25:56

I may not have the best education you

25:58

know I may not have a most social

26:01

respect but at least I’m better than red

26:03

immigrant over there

26:04

right at least I have a high social

26:05

status with that well it now thankfully

26:07

has politicians who are immigrants or

26:10

children of immigrants you might go to

26:11

your to your work and your boss might be

26:14

an immigrant well the fact that some

26:16

people feel like they’ve lost something

26:18

there that some social standing has been

26:20

taken away actually isn’t too surprising

26:23

now the United States is both similar

26:25

and different it’s different because

26:27

we’ve always been a multi-ethnic society

26:29

there’s always been many different

26:30

ethnicities living here but it’s similar

26:33

in rep has always been a very strict

26:35

racial hierarchy which gave one set of

26:37

people big advantages and privileges

26:39

over others now again I think we would

26:41

do well to remember though we’ve

26:43

actually come a very long way in

26:44

overcoming that despite the obvious

26:47

ongoing injustice in our country it is a

26:50

much better place for minorities to live

26:52

than 20 or 40 or 60 years ago and a lot

26:56

of people have started to embrace the

26:59

idea of an equal multi-ethnic Society

27:01

but again there’s a lot of people have

27:03

something to lose from that and who are

27:04

rebelling against bet again I don’t

27:06

condone that but it shouldn’t surprise

27:07

us that that is going on alright so if

27:11

you have the anger and the basic

27:16

distrust of our politics because people

27:18

are feeling like my life is not getting

27:20

any better I’m afraid of a future

27:22

economically if that often takes a

27:24

cultural form of a backlash against

27:26

immigration a backlash against racial

27:27

equality when you add the third

27:30

ingredient social media

27:32

which makes it so much easier for people

27:35

to challenge a media consensus to

27:39

challenge the gatekeepers who used to

27:42

say what can be a part of our political

27:44

discourse and what can’t now

27:47

in some ways that’s a good thing it’s a

27:49

good thing in dictatorships because we

27:50

Democratic opposition now has a much

27:52

easier time telling a telling a

27:57

population with truth about corruption

27:59

about repression and so on it can be a

28:02

good thing in our country as well if you

28:04

think about we meet the V men’s platform

28:06

that the students at Parkland High in

28:09

Florida immediately gained after the

28:11

horrible mass shooting there and their

28:13

ability to make her voice is hurt and

28:15

engage engage the public in a push for

28:17

change on gun control but at the same

28:21

time it also obviously makes it easier

28:22

for hateful voices for people who want

28:25

to spread fake news safety here next to

28:27

common pizza that’s an obvious thing to

28:29

think about and for people who want to

28:32

organize radical political movements to

28:37

actually have a big voice in our

28:39

politics so to me it’s these free causes

28:41

coming together but help to explain not

28:45

to the rise of Donald Trump and the rise

28:46

of similar for Italian populist in so

28:48

many different parts of the world

28:50

how do people want to defend liberal

28:54

democracy not end up looking to lots of

28:58

others like they are simply defending an

29:01

establishment in the status quo and I

29:04

thought about this a lot during the say

29:07

German elections where I’m my politics

29:11

our Social Democratic but I kind of

29:13

found myself wanting Merkel to do

29:15

reasonably well I didn’t want her to

29:17

fall and in a sense there could be

29:19

nothing more status quo then rooting for

29:22

Merkel in Germany and that I think that

29:26

there’s a real danger here that those of

29:31

us who want to push back against the

29:34

dangers of democracy end up looking like

29:37

protectors of the establishment and the

29:39

ruling class how do you respond to that

29:42

what’s your sort of strategy and

29:44

approach on that today I absolutely

29:47

agree missus this is crucial so a 2016

29:50

election in my mind the United States

29:52

was a contest between a moderate

29:55

politics of a status quo and an Axman

29:57

politics of change well it turns out

30:00

that when those are the rules of

30:01

engagement the extremist parties of

30:03

change can win not necessarily because

30:06

most Americans are extremists

30:10

because they really won some promise of

30:13

a country that changes that actually

30:15

delivers more for them and so what we

30:18

need to do among people who are more

30:21

politically moderate is to offer the

30:24

vision of the real politics of change to

30:27

show how without embracing a populist

30:29

mind frame how without sacrificing the

30:33

rights of minorities sacrificing

30:34

varieties of immigrants and so on we can

30:36

actually promise people a real vision of

30:39

of a better society and to me the great

30:42

failings of Angela Merkel and the grand

30:45

coalition that is now in power again in

30:46

Germany is that they’re not using the

30:49

big parliamentary majority they had and

30:51

still to some degree have in order to do

30:54

that but they aren’t actually saying hey

30:56

we are in favor of globalization and

30:59

free trade and all of those good things

31:02

but we’re really going to fight to make

31:04

sure that rich individuals actually pay

31:06

the tax in Germany or the United States

31:07

but corporations actually pay a fair

31:10

amount of tax in these countries that we

31:14

make it much easier for productivity to

31:18

grow in our countries because that’s one

31:20

of the main drivers of middle-class

31:22

incomes by investing a ton more money in

31:25

education that we are actually making

31:30

sure that people don’t have to keep

31:34

spending more and more money on the most

31:36

essential goods from housing to

31:39

education to health care now in all of

31:41

these countries visa huge problems and

31:43

the establishment parties aren’t

31:45

actually fighting for that we’re not

31:47

actually saying here are some ways to

31:50

radically change the way we run things

31:53

the way that we have public policy in

31:55

order to ensure that we have a better

31:58

distribution of against from

32:00

globalization and by the way much more

32:02

productivity growth much more growth in

32:04

incomes as well without thereby you know

32:08

giving in to the puppets all of these

32:09

things are possible those ideas out some

32:12

of them and even particularly

32:14

far-fetched employing four or five times

32:17

more people at vis to look after people

32:20

who are hiding the money in tax havens

32:22

is a no-brainer

32:23

it’s really easy to do and it pays for

32:25

itself tenfold so why aren’t we doing it

32:29

if I would suspect if Hillary Clinton

32:32

were here or Martin Schultz of the SPD

32:34

were here they would both say that’s

32:37

pretty much what we were suggesting in

32:39

the campaign and yet no one noticed that

32:41

that’s what we were suggesting is that

32:43

would they be right or wrong or half

32:45

right they’d be half right at best so

32:48

when you look at the advert compaines I

32:50

don’t think but they have a radical

32:52

measures on on any of those things but

32:55

it’s also a matter of how you actually

32:57

talk about those things and salvers so I

think one of the failings to me over

Hillary Clinton campaign was that it

never actually set out a vision for

America it basically said he is a good

fix on this and he’s a good fix on this

and he has a good fix on this and he is

something that I’m giving this could be

something that I’m giving that group

it’s not saying here are the ways in

which we’re going to make America work

for everybody and make it fair to

everybody and hear the ways in which yes

some things are working but there’s also

lots of things but really aren’t working

instead the message was you know America

is already great I’m gonna disguise the

fact that I have two questions to ask by

turning my two questions into one

question with us with the semicolon and

then if people want to start lining up

please feel free I’d like you to talk

about young people because you

especially if you look at the United

States and you acknowledge this in the

33:53

focus especially if you look at the

33:54

United States Americans under 30 or

33:57

Americans under 45 really promise to be

34:00

the drivers for change in a I think

34:04

positive direction in our country I’ve

34:07

told my kids that when my generation is

34:09

gone you guys will make things fine

34:12

except I want to be around to see it so

34:14

there’s a kind of contradiction there

34:17

the and and yet you have some more more

34:21

worries about young people more in

34:22

Europe than here so I’d like you I’d

34:26

like you to talk about that and then

34:29

secondly I would like you to talk about

34:33

sort of in in hopeful terms do you

at the response to what you write about

in the book in Europe or in the United

States and see anything coming together

that might actually be successful in

pushing back against the war on liberal

democracy or are you still more in Akos

and/or a mood so so starting with with

young people I mean I think so so look

but the thing is are quite stark right I

mean I’ve alluded into a couple of times

may as well say my loud so you know you

ask people how important is it to you to

live in a democracy among older

Americans born in 1930s 1940s over

two-thirds say absolutely important

among Millennials born since 1980 less

than one-third – when you ask people

about whether they think army rule is a

good system of government and a lot of

these figures are in the book twenty

years ago one in 16 Americans said

that’s a good system of government now

one in sixty and among young at a fluent

Americans is actually going up from six

to 35 percent nearly a six-fold increase

the counter argument against this for

pushback when I get is oh but all of the

people who voted for Donald Trump were

old people so of a political

manifestation of this actually is is

much more hmong older people and younger

people now the first answer to that is

what I’m hearing here from the left

which is not true right actually there

was a lot of young people who did vote

for Donald Trump among white people

under the age of 30

48 percent voted for Donald Trump and 43

percent for Hillary Clinton which is

which is a very worrying thing the

second thing I would say is that Donald

Trump didn’t really try to appeal to

young people right I’m he’s himself a

very you know an old guy and that’s just

not what his campaign was was designed

to do now you could easily get forms of

a proton populism where they’re on the

right where there’s clearly a quite

vibrant young or dried scene and so on

or for that matter on on on the left the

does try to tap into the deep systemic

discontent with democracy

that you see among a lot of young P and

the third point is well go and look at

Europe and you see with young people are

some of the strongest supporters of

populist movements on both the left and

the right in the French presidential

elections in the first round over 50% of

young people over 50 percent of young

people voted for Ivor marine lepen the

far-right populist all jean-luc

mélenchon the far left populist in Italy

37:18

you see that not only did nearly 2/3 of

37:22

your overall Italian electorate go for

37:24

iowa’s Silvio Berlusconi over far-right

37:26

league or the the five star movement

37:30

which has strong connections to Russia

37:32

and has run by people who believe in

37:34

9/11 was an inside job but the only

37:36

demographic among which there was less

37:39

vacays was the oldest people among young

37:41

people something like 80% verge for his

37:43

parties so so absolutely this fred is

37:46

among young people as well as all of you

37:49

now to a second question of how well are

37:51

we standing up against this I think

37:56

that’s roughly three scenarios for

37:57

what’s going to happen in the next years

37:59

the United States the first is that

38:03

Donald Trump does such a terrible job

38:06

and ends up being repudiated so broadly

38:11

losses so disastrously in the midterms

38:13

you know wins one and a half states in

38:16

2020 there’s a real moment of coming

38:20

together and a real recognition of how

38:22

dangerous it is for people to to flower

38:26

most basic rules of our political system

38:27

and not as a recognition that this

38:29

particular guy failed but that similar

38:32

kinds of movements are all dangerous

38:34

nothing that’s possible but I I’m not

38:37

holding my breath foot

38:39

the second scenario is V inverse it is

38:43

that like Edwin has done in Turkey like

38:47

Auburn is succeeding in doing and hungry

38:49

like it looks like the Polish government

38:51

may be succeeding and doing in Poland

38:54

Donald Trump actually manages to expand

38:56

his base to deliver for some of his core

38:58

constituency to undermine independence

39:03

titude sly for the pattern of justice

39:05

and and the FBI to corrupt the process

39:10

of elections more and more and that he

39:12

essentially becomes a form of dictator

39:15

of a course over the next six or eight

39:16

years now again I think that’s possible

39:20

but in part because Donald Trump has

39:23

actually been very incompetent at

39:24

following the PlayBook of a vote for a

39:27

town leaders around the world in part

39:29

because he hasn’t been very good to

39:30

delivering for his base in part because

39:32

he’s not very strategic in his attacks

39:34

on institutions but it’s always obvious

39:35

but it’s naked self-interest in part

39:38

because even his rhetoric always seems

39:40

to be a little bit more about himself

39:41

and about setting up that essential

39:44

contra contours putting himself and the

39:47

people and so on I’m hopeful that’s not

39:50

going to happen and in part because

39:51

where’s the great resistance movements

39:52

of Americans actually heating and taking

39:55

seriously those people who are once

39:57

called casandra’s and going out to to

40:00

resist Donald Trump and all kinds of

40:02

concrete ways my big fear now when I

40:04

talk about this in the book is the third

40:07

scenario what I would call the Roman

40:09

scenario but which I had in mind the

40:11

late Roman Republic but given the

40:14

elections a week ago I guess I’m a owes

40:16

to be talking about Rome today which is

40:18

that you have a populist figure like the

40:22

kuraki in Rome were like Sabha

40:23

Berlusconi in Italy for that matter that

40:26

exploits deep discontent of a political

40:28

system and comes to a political stage

40:31

crew creates a huge constitutional

40:33

crisis and after a bunch of years is

40:36

thrown out of a system again Chimaera’s

40:38

Krakow’s was killed Silvio Berlusconi

40:41

ended up resigning in disgrace in 2011

40:46

but because the underlying reasons for

40:49

this discontent aren’t being tackled

40:51

because we’re not doing a good enough

40:52

job of making sure that ordinary people

40:54

actually get an improvement of a living

40:56

status because we’re not creating an

40:57

inclusive patriotism but emphasizes what

40:59

unites us across racial and religious

41:02

lines rather than what what divides us

41:04

um you you have this similar kind of

41:07

energy coming back six years later like

41:11

now in Italy ten years later has

41:13

happened with with Jewish crocuses

41:16

younger brother and so over the course

41:18

of perhaps 20 perhaps 40 perhaps 60

41:21

years you slowly get such an erosion of

41:25

a political system that you wind up that

41:28

to me is the biggest fear that this is

41:30

not a matter of dealing with it in 2020

41:32

of dealing with in 2018 it’s something

41:35

that we’re gonna be fighting not just

41:36

for the rest of your lifetime each day

41:38

but for the rest of the lifetime of a

41:40

few young people in this crowd as well

41:41

[Laughter]

41:52

but we go but that doesn’t mean you can

41:54

look it up on Google and not buy the

41:55

book

41:58

can you introduce yourselves when you

41:59

ask a question is the mic working yes

42:02

okay yes I’m Jeremiah reamer this is not

42:06

a plan DJ asked me to ask a provocative

42:09

question earlier but but I just thought

42:11

it up my my question has to do with you

42:16

have a a term I’m not completely

42:19

satisfied with to talk about the the

42:23

opposite of the Democratic populist you

42:27

call them I think is it undemocratic

42:29

liberals and I guess my question goes to

42:32

whether they’re really undemocratic or

42:35

incapable of making a democratic

42:37

connection because I actually think a

42:38

lot of these people want to be

42:40

democratic but they’re unable to make a

42:43

kind of a connection to electoral

42:45

politics and to the kind of successful

42:48

model where they we’re sort of their

42:53

expertise their professional knowledge

42:56

was consulted and valued and

42:59

big tent party political leaders were

43:01

able to use that but I think they want

43:04

to be democratic you know there’s a

43:07

tendency to view technocrats is just bad

43:09

but I think there are good Technic rats

43:11

and bad techno I think Mario Draghi is

43:13

kind of a good technocratic along with

43:15

Janet Yellen and Ben Bernanke they did

43:17

some good things so my question to you

43:20

is and by the way this is related to

43:23

another observation I made about the

43:25

Trump reaction to Trump among the most

43:28

aggrieved people about the Trump

43:30

election are people who are professional

43:34

civil servants who feel they have

43:36

professional expertise it’s not just the

43:37

fact that they’re cosmopolitan hipsters

43:39

living in by coastal cities they also

43:41

feel their professional knowledge useful

43:44

for government is being completely

43:46

ignored how can those people how do you

43:49

think the good technic ratso to speak if

43:51

you agree with my my term can can remake

43:55

a connection I mean obviously yeah yeah

43:58

so yeah go ahead yes 14 being so I think

44:08

the short answer is very termos and

44:11

democratic liberal robin anti-democratic

44:12

liberals so in essence I agree but just

44:15

just to explain that time a little bit

44:17

to people who haven’t read the book so

44:18

one of the arguments I make is that you

44:20

know we need to think of our pokel

44:22

system as having these two elements

44:23

liberal democracy the liberal has

44:25

nothing to do with liberal and

44:26

conservative it’s not you know brock

44:28

obama as george w bush it is a

44:31

commitment to invent rights to to the

44:35

rights of minorities to the rule of law

44:37

to the separation of powers and amah

44:39

cracy in my mind when becomes actually

44:41

translating popular views into public

44:43

policies unless we’re actually managing

44:45

to make sure that our political system

44:46

is responsive to what people want it

44:49

doesn’t seem to me very democratic now

44:51

what i think is happening in the world

44:53

is two things on the one side for a long

44:56

time we’ve had a system of rights

44:58

without terribly much democracy of a

45:00

undemocratic liberalism which is to say

45:02

a system in which yes we do a reasonably

45:05

good job at protecting individual rights

45:07

and minority rights and the separation

45:10

of powers but we’re not doing a great

45:12

job

45:13

often shirring that we’re actually

45:15

translating what people think into

45:17

policy and that’s the case because of a

45:19

huge role of money in politics it was a

45:21

revolving door between lobbyists and

45:22

legislators yes because of a certain

45:27

elite class but doesn’t have much

45:29

circulation of ordinary people but also

45:32

because a lot of bureaucratic and

45:34

technical institutions that do do a

45:35

great job take lots of issues out of

45:38

democratic contestation so that lots of

45:40

decisions are made by the Supreme Court

45:43

by an independent central bank and by

45:45

international organizations are

45:46

precluded from politics through trade

45:49

treaties and you take all of those

45:51

things together and it’s not surprising

45:52

when lots of people say no between

45:55

listening to me right now we need to

45:58

understand that to understand part of a

46:00

populist instinct which is the inverse

46:02

it’s not rise for democracy it’s

46:04

democracy vaad rights it’s saying we are

46:07

gonna speak for a majority and actually

46:09

put forward all of the politically

46:11

incorrect ideas that people actually

46:12

like now often unfortunate side is

46:15

really our popular when you look in

46:16

Switzerland whoever was a referendum as

46:19

a result of which the Swiss Constitution

46:21

now reads I quote there’s freedom of

46:24

religion in Switzerland the building of

46:27

minarets is forbidden she doesn’t make

46:30

much sense that shows that actually a

46:33

majority of Swiss people did want to

46:35

restrict the rights of a Muslim minority

46:37

well now the problem with that is that

46:39

eventually a liberal democracy rights

46:41

democracy overrides degenerates into

46:44

straight for dictatorship because once

46:46

you’ve taken away separation of powers

46:47

once you have put your own people in the

46:50

courts in the electoral commission as

46:52

this happened in Hungary in the media

46:53

the position along it has a real chance

46:56

of getting rid of so you know between

47:01

those two evils I think I know which one

47:02

I would pick but in order to deal with

47:06

the underlying drivers of his populist

47:07

anger we need to find ways to make our

47:10

political system more responsive to what

47:13

people want and even for a lot of

47:14

technocratic institutions do a great job

47:16

I think we need to recognize that they

47:18

have problematic aspects to them well

47:22

you kind of

47:23

answer some of the questions I have but

47:25

let me just make this statement and let

47:28

you comment the Democratic state has to

47:32

rein in the forces that are trying to

47:34

destroy it

47:35

those are very various like the Romani

47:41

corrupt press the preventing people from

47:44

voting not educating them to the point

47:48

that they vote for the man wants to be

47:52

dictator if we don’t do that we have to

47:56

be to watch be watchful canter and we

48:00

know what happened in Germany what

48:03

happened in other kinds of each to me

48:05

they are not becoming democracies they

48:08

are losing their freedom and and people

48:12

just let that happen you know and if we

48:15

don’t we are not alert what is happening

48:17

why do we believe what we hear in some

48:21

radio or television station why is that

48:24

allowed to happen

48:25

lying everyday to people so one of the

48:30

things what I think is really important

48:31

is to actually you know educate people

48:33

about the values of our political system

48:35

and how our political system works one

48:38

of the reasons why there’s more and more

48:41

information online is because the rise

48:43

of the Internet and of social media and

48:44

so on but I think it goes beyond just

48:47

the existence of Facebook and Twitter

48:49

things can spread because people don’t

48:51

trust the government and we don’t trust

48:52

the government because a we don’t really

48:55

know how it works because we barely

48:56

teach civics anymore in high schools

48:58

right and be because even insofar as we

49:02

do you know how it works they only see

49:04

the negative things in our political

49:06

system this is something that I say that

49:10

could have it where I teach and my

49:11

faculty colleagues aren’t too pleased

49:12

with me for it

49:13

which is that we need to actually tell

49:16

people what’s good about our political

49:17

system as well now that doesn’t mean

49:19

that we should be uncritical doesn’t

49:21

mean but we shouldn’t also be upfront

49:23

about the shortcomings of our political

49:25

system and ways in which people continue

49:28

to suffer injustice and discrimination

49:30

but if we only talk about those things

49:32

and never say about explain how it what

49:36

it is but

49:37

makes our political system and why it is

49:38

but living related states for all of its

49:40

problems it’s still a lot better than

49:41

living in Russia or Iran or China or

49:45

Venezuela then we shouldn’t be surprised

49:48

that people are willing to throw all of

49:50

that away and so I think you know one of

49:53

the things but we can all do with our

49:56

[Music]

49:58

children with our siblings with our

50:00

parents with if you’re a teacher of your

50:02

students if you’re a writer a journalist

50:04

with in your articles is to actually

50:08

recommit people to those political

50:11

values from Plato to our startled and

50:13

from whose thought to the founding

50:15

fathers all of the great thinkers about

50:18

self-government knew how crucial it is

50:20

to transmit our political values from

50:22

one generation to the next and we might

50:24

have paid a little bit of lip service to

50:25

that in the last 30 40 years who stopped

50:28

taking it seriously and that’s a big

50:29

problem I’ve been thinking that the last

50:32

14 months are brought to you by Joni

50:33

Mitchell you don’t know what you got

50:36

till it’s gone and could I bring in I

50:38

could the folks at the store tell me

50:41

when we should shut down a called a

50:43

Dogma yah

50:45

actually I will take two more questions

50:47

and then was that all we have yeah sorry

50:54

actually can I amend that if people are

50:57

briefed let me just take four questions

51:00

fast all at once and then Yasha can give

51:03

a very compact answers because he wants

51:06

to sell books so four quick thank you

51:09

my name is Don greenhouse from the

51:12

Chautauqua Institution in Chautauqua New

51:15

York where EJ has lectured a number of

51:18

times when we invite you all to come and

51:21

hear some discussions just like this

51:23

very quickly I can’t remember her name

51:26

an author recent book called strangers

51:30

in their own land a hotel and she uses a

51:33

metaphor so I’d like to you to think

51:35

about it in terms of micro rather than

51:38

macro sense of these we’re all lined up

51:41

back from the pot of gold and we’re all

51:44

standing quietly in line and our liberal

51:47

democracy keeps bringing people into

51:50

the line in front of us the blacks the

51:53

gays etc etc and this is causing this

51:57

angst and populism I wondered if you

52:00

might comment

52:01

hold that thought thank you sir Stewart

52:04

Schulz I’ll try to make this really

52:06

quick and condense it but you’ve

52:08

identified populism you know there’s

52:11

lack of agency this lack of Economic

52:14

Opportunity threat to cultural identity

52:16

as the major threats of liberal

52:17

democracy and I can’t speak to the

52:20

international situation but at least

52:21

domestically Trump ran on all those

52:24

things but his actual administration has

52:26

nothing to do with any of that message

52:28

it has to do with advancing corporate

52:31

interests and it’s it seems to me that

52:33

the the real threat to liberal democracy

52:35

is not in these issues which are real

52:39

but in the forces that use those issues

52:43

to advance agendas that are more

52:45

dangerous to liberal democracy I mean

52:47

what’s the role in capital in all of

52:49

this so it’s clear that Donald Trump is

52:53

a symptom of fraud or underlying causes

52:55

as he undermines institutions are we

52:58

doing a good enough job to deal with the

53:01

underlying causes or are we just saying

53:03

he’s undermined this institution there

53:05

for Donald Trump’s about sorry for the

53:10

rest yeah my name is avery James I’m a

53:15

sophomore at American University quick

53:17

question you mentioned how we need and

53:19

you actually end up at new york times on

53:20

this as well this new nationalism this

53:22

new patriotism I would just ask how is

53:24

that in any way unique from what Marco

53:25

Rubio won in 2013 how was that in any

53:27

way unique from what Jeb Bush who was

53:28

bankrolled by the Republican Party

53:30

basically Mitt Romney but he’s fluent in

53:32

Spanish this time I mean how is that any

53:33

different from what the people who had

53:35

the power to make decisions the

53:36

Republican Party wanted and ended up

53:38

with what we have I mean that how is it

53:40

non-unique right yeah that’s question I

53:41

really have is how does that change the

53:43

current trend Thanks all right

53:46

I might need some some reminders but but

53:49

I’ll try and get through these four

53:50

questions quickly and then say something

53:51

inspiring at the end there we go that’s

53:53

my task so yes so please that’s so so

54:02

the cutting in line metaphor I think

54:04

it’s

54:04

quite powerful and and and and but

54:06

that’s how a lot of people think about

54:07

it right that that they’ve been they’re

54:10

frustrated we’re not getting what we

54:12

want we’ve been promised a pot of gold

54:13

they’re still sounding a line for it and

54:15

now why are the people doing well like

54:17

for me that precisely explains the

54:19

lunacy of pretending that cultural

54:22

factors and economic factors ah it’s

54:26

either one of y’all this is the way in

54:28

which it’s connected but if people feel

54:30

like I’m getting a fair shake and I I’m

54:33

a lot wealthier than my parents wear and

54:35

my kids are gonna do better than me I

54:36

know what that guy over there is doing

54:39

fine too good for him you know he’s not

54:41

like me he’s an immigrant or he’s

54:42

whatever right but but I’m doing fine

54:45

nice what he’s doing fine too when

54:47

people start to feel you know what I’ve

54:50

been taking advantage of all my life and

54:51

politicians are we delivering for me and

54:53

my community is falling apart in all

54:54

kinds of ways and there’s an opioid

54:57

epidemic and and our incomes are

54:58

stagnating and because union jobs are

55:00

gone and now why is that guy over there

55:02

doing fine it’s easy to scapegoat and

55:05

blame right and so one of the ways of

55:07

dealing with hat is to make sure that we

55:09

actually deliver on the American dream

55:11

for people in a way that that we

55:13

promised um on inclusive patriotism I

55:17

mean I think that there is a deep store

55:19

of inclusive patriotism in in American

55:22

political history

55:23

um I think often people didn’t

55:26

necessarily act on that so you know in

55:28

the end though I agree with some what

55:30

Republicans had perfectly decent metric

55:32

around it Muslim weren’t willing to

55:34

actually vote in those ways and and and

55:37

and ensure that we take those issues on

55:39

the table through some kind of

55:40

comprehensive deal where we come to a

55:42

decision about that I also think that

55:45

there is a little bit of resistance to

55:47

it on on parts of left-right so what we

55:50

have at the moment is a riot politically

55:54

who says let’s talk about nationalism

55:55

over time but let’s talk about it in

55:58

exclusive ways basically the kind of

56:00

form of white nationalism of which I

56:01

would argue our current president is

56:03

guilty but then on the Left I think best

56:06

instinct but I know quite well because I

56:07

grew up with it wishes to say hey

56:10

nationalism can be so destructive and it

56:12

was so destructive in 20th century why

56:15

don’t we actually move beyond it

56:18

leave nationalism behind in the century

56:20

which is so cruelly shaped and that you

56:25

know allows us to be Cosmopolitan’s it

56:26

allows us to not have any strong

56:28

collective identity whatever that’s one

56:30

kind of approach the other approach is

56:32

to say we’re going to celebrate every

56:33

form of collective identity at the

56:35

sub-national level and religious group

56:38

every ethnic group every sexual root and

56:40

so on but we’re not going to celebrate

56:42

the nation because a nation is bad and

56:45

has this very bad history and the other

56:47

things are under now I agree that we

56:49

need to defend every group from attack

56:52

and discrimination that is ongoing but I

56:55

also think that the nation can actually

56:57

be a great stew of solidarity but it can

56:59

be precisely the thing but allows you to

57:01

see why you should care about somebody

57:03

who doesn’t have the same skillet

57:05

doesn’t have skin color doesn’t have the

57:06

same religion and so on and we’re

57:08

emphasizing that an inclusive manner is

57:10

a way to build social solidarity and

57:13

fight discrimination rather than a way

57:15

to advance so to meet nationalism as a

57:18

half domesticated animal and instead of

57:20

leaving it on its own to be stoked and

57:22

prodded by the worst kind of people I

57:24

think though we need to domesticate one

57:26

nice way of doing that in a political

57:28

speech and I have many disagreements

57:30

with him and other things is what Amanda

57:33

McConnell said in Marseille on the

57:35

campaign trail he said when looking to

57:38

his audience I see people from Mali in

57:40

the Ivory Coast and and Algeria and

57:43

Italy in Poland who what do I see I see

57:46

the people of Marseille what do I see I

57:48

see the people of France look here

57:50

ladies and gentlemen of horn as you know

57:51

the far-right party of my underpin this

57:54

is what it looks like to be proud to be

57:56

French that to me is a nationalism that

57:58

actually makes sense and and having

58:00

parts of right could fight for it most

58:02

strongly living parts of a life could

58:03

also fight for it more strongly there’s

58:06

two questions but I’m missing here

58:11

and one one alright so um okay so the

58:20

question about corporation look I mean I

58:21

think that

58:24

liberal democracy works when democracy

58:29

in capitalism and balance I don’t think

58:31

the answer is to abolish capitalism

58:33

because there is no democratic country

58:36

but it has ever existed on the face of

58:38

the earth without capitalism and while I

58:41

get right-wing critiques of

58:43

globalization because we standard of

58:45

living of steel workers in Michigan but

58:48

he hasn’t improved that much over the

58:49

last thirty years and most because of

58:50

our political choices Robin makes

58:52

globalization but at least I get it I

58:53

don’t really understand certain forms of

58:56

left-wing critique of globalization

58:58

because if you actually say that you

59:00

care about the well-being of poor people

59:02

in the world and you look at the fact

59:04

for two billion people have been lifted

59:06

out of dire poverty in India and China

59:07

over the course of the last twenty or

59:10

thirty years people didn’t have

59:11

electricity you didn’t have food to eat

59:13

we didn’t have medication who now leads

59:16

middle-class lives I think we need to

59:19

recognize what all some positively power

59:21

it has but we need to also make sure

59:24

that we actually use those fruits in

59:27

order to deliver for ordinary people

59:30

now some kindness have done much better

59:32

than this than other countries and it’s

59:34

not because the more or less capitalists

59:35

it’s because we’ve pursued policies but

59:37

I actually directed to helping ordinary

59:40

people and that’s in part because money

59:43

had much less of a hold on their

59:45

politics when it does in our culture so

59:47

this is not rocket science it’s solvable

59:49

but we need to fight to solve it it’s

59:52

going to be hard to solve it

59:56

I’m gonna end with you know I’m

60:00

sometimes told that when I talk or you

60:05

know when people read my articles but it

60:06

can be a little depressing so so thanks

60:10

for coming out to get depressed on a

60:12

Sunday afternoon with lovely sunny

60:14

weather but but I actually genuinely

60:16

think and I think your book

60:19

One Nation are trumped prints without

60:20

really beautifully as well EJ but this

60:22

is a moment to be inspired the spine

60:25

will be ugly this now apologies when I

60:27

grew up politically when I came away

60:29

pull it came of age politically it

60:32

seemed like what we would do wouldn’t

60:33

matter that much because yes there’s

60:36

some policies were better and some

60:37

policies there were worse or some

60:39

ongoing discrimination and injustice but

60:41

in the end we sort of knew what the

60:43

world was gonna look like 30 or 35 years

60:45

from now right now we don’t know that

60:48

and it’s up to how we act to ensure how

60:52

that’s going to look so yes that’s scary

60:54

and yes it’s easy to get depressed by

60:56

that but it’s also easy to get inspired

60:58

by that because it means where we can

60:59

actually act um the best picture image

61:03

for this in my mind comes from our

61:04

mizar’s

61:05

who says has a huge fire burning and

61:08

each of us only has a little glass of

61:10

water in the hand and and it can seem

61:13

hopeless if I go to the water and I dump

61:16

my little glass of water on it on the

61:17

fire that’s not going to change anything

61:19

the fire is far too big well but thanks

61:22

for coming out everybody there’s a lot

61:23

of people in this room and if each of us

61:26

takes our glass of water and I’m set on

61:28

fire then together we might just be able

61:29

to extinguish it now the way to do that

61:32

is to fight for real change in our

61:35

system not just to defeat Donald Trump

61:36

it’s to actually make sure that our

61:39

political system delivers forward many

61:40

people again is to make sure that people

61:41

see what’s valuable in our political

61:43

system again and if you agree with some

61:45

of my descriptions and diagnosis today

61:48

you’ll have an idea of what you can go

61:50

and do at home if you disagree when you

61:52

have your own ideas but but the

61:55

important thing is that unlike people in

61:58

Turkey and like people in Russia and

62:00

like people in Venezuela we still have a

62:02

freedom to go and fight and organize and

62:04

mobilize politically and argue and so I

62:07

think it’s our duty to do that

62:09

Inuyasha for Congress pack will be

62:12

collecting signatures up here I want to

62:21

read just the last words of the book

62:24

with what Yasha said he said nobody can

62:27

promise us a happy end but those of us

62:29

who truly care about our values and our

62:31

institutions are determined to fight for

62:34

our convictions without regard for the

62:37

consequences though the fruits of our

62:39

labor may remain uncertain we will do

62:41

what we can to save liberal democracy

62:44

thank you all for coming out and yes we

62:46

will sign the bus

62:58

you