openpolitics.com

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Robert Cunningham pastor Tates Creek
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Presbyterian Church when we began to see
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the surprising rise of Donald Trump
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leading evangelical voice Russell Moore
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wrote an op-ed in the New York Times
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challenging evangelical Volkers voters
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to rethink their support of a man so
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antithetical to the Christian faith that
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to vote for him would be to quote
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repudiate everything they believed well
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six months later it appears evangelical
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voters have repudiated everything they
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believe but what if and he has an
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interesting angle on this what if
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evangelicals or any tribe for that
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matter aren’t primarily compelled by
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what they believe but instead by what
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they love
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in fact what if every one of us will
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gladly repudiate what we believe before
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we would ever repudiate what we love and
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when can you unpack them what if Donald
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Trump though contradictory to
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evangelical beliefs is the embodiment of
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current evangelical loves Wow so are you
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with me yeah I’m with you now there’s a
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book about this James ka Smith’s book
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there it is
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desiring the kingdom he actually has a
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newer one out called you are what is I
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think the kingdom part – no it’s new
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everyone is I think it may be it’s not
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released yet called you are what you
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love okay well not all of us have access
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to unreleased books Kai not all of it
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but you all have access to Amazon oh
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it’s it’s on Amazon you can read the
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book no but you can see the book why do
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you know what it says because I know his
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message oh okay that’s fine so James ka
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Smith says uses love to describe those
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deeper longings and desires of the human
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heart contrary to Western enlightenment
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that views us as Minds compelled by our
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thoughts the Bible views us as lovers
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compelled by our love sighs mm-hmm I
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just read that actually yes you did my
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quiet time today Smith argues that loves
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are formed by our habits of course we
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know this is true with our personal
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habits but what we often don’t see is
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the formative power of corporate habits
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what Smith refers to as cultural
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liturgies
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you know that term yeah cultural
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liturgies you look confused I don’t
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think just pond I’m pondering what that
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actually means liturgy what’s that I
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know it of liturgy liturgy is literally
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the work of the people Oh a literal
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liturgy literal liturgy so the work of
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the people so what we do together the
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practices the customs the the rituals
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that we engage in together actually form
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our desires right so you take this out
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of a religious context entirely when
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when the entire culture practices
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Christmas and the shopping and all that
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it trains children to be consumeristic
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right just because the whole culture
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does it and they get caught up in it and
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they don’t even think to question it or
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the whole culture takes a pause to do
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brackets in March for March Madness and
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it trains you to love college basketball
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right but only one month a year right
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when things turn green it’s time to love
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college basketball right yeah so for
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example is it a coincidence the vast
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majority of Americans are bent toward
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greed and overconsumption of course not
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our culture has trained us to be
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ravenous consumers now considered so
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says sky over and over again now
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consider Donald Trump in one sense he
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makes no sense from a care policy
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standpoint evangelical support for
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Donald Trump is utterly mystifying but I
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think we aren’t giving the convictions
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of evangelicals enough credit they know
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enough to know what Trump is saying and
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doing is wrong and yet they’re still
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supporting him why because we are never
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compelled by our ideals like we are by
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our loves and when you look at Donald
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Trump through the shared the shared
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loves of the evangelical culture he
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starts to make perfect sense what are
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the shared loves of the evangelical the
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best part of this what happens when the
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liturgies of our greedy culture train
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evangelicals to love money and power
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what happens when the liturgies of talk
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radio train evangelicals to love anger
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and paranoia what happens when the
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liturgies of social media train
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evangelicals to love sensational sound
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bites more
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thoughtful discourse what happens when
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the liturgies of modern worship modern
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worship services train evangelicals to
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love novel flashy and glib emotional
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experiences that feel more like a rally
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than corporate worship what happens when
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the conference culture of the church
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trains evangelicals to love the big
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celebrity leader what happens when
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preaching that prioritizes relevant
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shocking and brash sermons trains
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evangelicals to love tell it like it is
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ranting I know what happens what happens
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when the liturgies from the days of the
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moral majority train evangelicals to
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love America as much as Jesus I like
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Robert Cunningham I know what happens I
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know where this is going then leads to
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an incessant longing within churches to
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quote make America great again what
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happens we get Donald Tran Jellicle
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‘he’s in love with Donald Trump happens
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Russell Moore closes his op-ed piece
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with the plea to evangelicals we ought
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to listen to get past the boisterous
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confidence in the television lights in
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the waving arms and hear just whose
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speech were applauding but what if the
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boisterous confidence and the television
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lights and the waving arms are precisely
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what evangelicals have been trained to
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love what if they can’t listen because
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they are enraptured what if they
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applauded not because Trump has given
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them a speech but because Trump has
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given them what they love well that
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absolutely correlates with a study that
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just came out huh
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because they took a bunch of people that
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were watching the last Republican
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debates and they hooked them up with EKG
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monitors brain monitors and whenever he
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came on the screen whether they liked
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him or didn’t like he’s elevated like
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crazy their brains went nuts
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even though even the ones that said they
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just hated him or they weren’t
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interested in him at all so he’s a
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stimulating he’s controversial figure
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yes he’s Katniss well I mean yeah even a
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four-year-old just looking at a picture
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of Donald Trump is going to have their
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brain stimulated because they’re gonna
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ask what animal is on his head
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mother mother
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and then when he starts talking and the
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way he does his hand I hate them oh it
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just makes me how did he do that with
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his finger no I was trying to his hand
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it’s like this he’s always he’s like
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Spider Man about to throw a web but like
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we’re getting off and he’s like this
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like and he keeps saying the same things
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over and over again that has no
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substance because it makes people
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applaud he is so right on I’m with him
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that I thought that his his paragraph
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about the liturgy so well senator mm-hmm
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was can you send me that link profound
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it will put it on Sky’s email list yeah
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yeah if you sign up for my free email
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newsletter you you the day after the
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podcast or the day of the puck that’s
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the new thing yeah you get all the links
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sky Chaitanya calm and I can use that
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email this too right yes bill can okay
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I’ll let you use my email list yeah you
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don’t have one i have a twitter twitter
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you I’ll tweet you something if you sign
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up for my Twitter I don’t tweet very
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often because I’m not a bird what okay
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so we’re thoughtful Christians we’re
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thought I would just like to think we
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are how do you go against our our own
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cultural liturgies I’d say we all make a
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podcast and everybody goes out there
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well he references James ka Smith also
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known as Jamie Smith in his book
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desiring the kingdom and all I said and
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and really people should read his stuff
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because it we have had this assumption
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in the church that if you teach people
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to think the right thoughts that they
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will act the right way and not only
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Smith but Dallas Willard and numerous
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other people in the spiritual formation
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kind of realm of of writing have
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debunked that over and over and over
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again and just having the right Lee I’m
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sure if you give a bunch of Christians a
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little exam on basic theology they
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probably be able to answer the correct
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way but that doesn’t impact the way they
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actually live this is what I was trying
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to get at in the divine commodity my
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first book about consumerism I didn’t
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use the language of heart or desire
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things like I did
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but I used the language of imagination
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what is it that shapes the way you think
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and your desires that happens on a far
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deeper level and most of our churches
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have completely abandoned yeah
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that level of engagement right so not
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until everybody gets disenchanted with
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their faith about you know it’s not
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really making a difference in their life
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that they stop and examine okay wait a
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second
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this this thing that I’ve bought into
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intellectually or any other way is not
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satisfying my soul and so then they
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start looking for something to satisfy
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their soul well the easiest way to look
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at that is to just look how you actually
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spend your time yeah you know yeah what
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do what do I try to do when what do I
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try to find time for you know and I have
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to do that myself it’s like wow I’m
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spending a lot of time watching The
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Voice I’ll give you an example though
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for the last two weeks I started this
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new diet right I haven’t had any sugar
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in two weeks no wonder you’re crabby
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under but what’s interesting is like I
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don’t crave like that on my couch
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but you were crashed out I was but
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here’s the thing you know it takes a
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while you essentially have to detox off
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this stuff right and then you don’t have
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those swings of blood sugar anymore and
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you even but in order for me to not just
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lose the weight but get off of the sugar
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I had to just stop eating sugar and
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that’s a sacrifice at first it’s crazy
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and it’s shame that ends up changing
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what you want and desire as you get rid
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of the sugar you desire and want to eat
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other help with alcohol right you know
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liquefied grain sugar anyway the point
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being what we’ve abandoned in the
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American church is this idea that if you
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really want to change what you desire
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you actually have to sacrifice first you
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have to take up your cross and deny
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yourself what our churches have
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generally said in order to appeal to
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more and more consumers the Americans is
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you don’t have to give up anything
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you’re gonna be entertained you’re gonna
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be comfortable I like we’re gonna have
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right that message right but then you
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don’t end up transforming desires all
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you end up doing is reinforcing them I
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will say to in my own experience I
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didn’t say this and
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January when we were talking about new
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things that we were gonna do this year
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because I didn’t want to speak it out
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yet because I didn’t want to fail but I
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started you know to read through the
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Bible at a friend Sarah that challenged
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me to read through and I haven’t missed
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and I’ve read all the way through we’re
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almost at April and it truly has been
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transformational and very much so
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because I’ve start every morning and I
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and two things have happened one it’s
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generally it’s genuinely caused me to
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have an experience with the Lord every
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day so there have been a couple of days
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where I’ve missed and I felt this
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longing for that intimacy number one
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number two is I’ve truly read through
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the Old Testament and and and I’m
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learning things that I didn’t know or
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seeing things that I didn’t understand
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asking questions that I hadn’t asked I’m
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learning to understand and know God more
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deeply no I’m just using the Bible it’s
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just the text Hebrew I wish but but I’m
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saying it does begin to change you from
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that heart level when you have that
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experience any change in what you desire
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absolutely hugely and also in my faith
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to just trust like like I said I I had a
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lot of hard stuff happen over the last
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two weeks and my first reaction has not
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been despair it’s truly been I’ve
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watched how God has aren’t you just an
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optimistic person and you never ever
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despair about anything ever in your
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whole life that is not true okay but I
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am genuinely generally an optimist but I
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didn’t think that no it’s not true but
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but the point is I truly have seen how
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God has carried these Israelites despite
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how they behaved and it’s given me hope
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to know I can chill out he’s got this so
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what have you had to change or give up
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in order to fit reading the Bible into
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your day every morning or well I started
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trying to get up a lot earlier there you
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go there’s a sacrifice there’s a change
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of habit and sometimes I do that and
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that’s what I try to do most of all
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however if it doesn’t happen if I sleep
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in or whatever I sacrifice time at work
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and I say I’m not going to do this thing
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that’s the top of my to-do list until I
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sit down and spend this time because I
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realize I’ll be empty what my soul is
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really longing for is that communion and
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so now it’s happened long enough like
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enough days in a row where I can’t go if
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I just can’t go without it
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it’s really changed what what what I
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think we’re uncovering is what the
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advertising industry is known for a long
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long time
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what’s that which is people do not
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change their behaviors because of an
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argument you change your behaviors
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because they’ve targeted your affections
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they’ve changed your imagination or what
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you think about and you have to be
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asking the question what is shaping my
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affections what is shaping my desires
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what am i watching when am i reading
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what am i consuming Facebook social
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media I would like to think that I am
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smart enough to resist the impact of
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what I am consuming I would like to
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think that – I don’t think that’s true
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over time yeah you can engage things in
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certain doses and go oh I can
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intellectually pick that apart and not
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have it affect me but if you really
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saturate yourself and some things right
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I think the opposite has to be true you
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you have to be engaged in that kind of
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communion with God I think because I
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think having that deep love lets you
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realize that this other stuff isn’t is
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not satisfying at all and so I can get
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caught up from time to time in watching
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CNN or what’s going on but truthfully I
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can turn it off and lead like nothing I
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don’t know when the last time was I was
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really on Facebook
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seriously I hadn’t realized that until
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recently but it’s like I’m not really
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always I think Facebook was doing for
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you before making me feel connected okay
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like I think there was this need of
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talking to others them knowing me me
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knowing them wanting to be involved now
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you know I just don’t seem to have that
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need anymore
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as much no longer need people I don’t I
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don’t know I just I’m telling you what
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I’m the change I’ve noticed and the
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biggest change is that I really am
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desiring that time that intimacy and I
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think throughout my day like do you know
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what I just learned yesterday I learned
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in numbers when they were counting all
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the Israelites you know and Moses said
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here go counter you ready just the men
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from 20 and up there were over two
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million two
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hundred-something if you think about it
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you’ve got you’ve got all the wives they
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had and the children they had and then
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think about all the livestock that’s
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like 4 million or more and that’s got a
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brain
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John Walton into this conversation cuz
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he might burst your bubble a little bit
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ok well just let me have this let me
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have this moment but my point is there
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were a lot of people can you imagine
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getting Chicago together and running
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around in tents and whatever I mean yeah
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have you ever been to Chicago
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you know what one of the worst
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experiences of my life was going down to
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the taste on the 4th of July down there
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well just we hadn’t been married long
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and she was pregnant and that was a
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terrible idea yes it was yeah that’s
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horrible really really terrible idea so
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how what can we do collectively you know
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in there’s individual but then there’s
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like if you come together as your small
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group as a church how do you even begin
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to address what your affections are well
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I mean the first step is what we’ve
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already been talking about is you need
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church leaders who actually recognize
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that their responsibility is not just to
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form people’s intellectual beliefs but
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to form their affection if they’re not
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even aware of that right you’re not
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getting anywhere then secondly you have
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to take a step back a particular from
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your corporate gatherings and ask what
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implicit values are we communicating in
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the way we do things in our large
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gatherings so I do this all time with
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church leaders if if you were to just
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sit in your worship space when it’s
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empty and write down what you observe
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about the space
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what implicit values are you
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communicating just in the physical space
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in which you worship for example if
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every seat is pointed toward the podium
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and the pastor what does that
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communicate if there are symbols absent
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or not present present or not present or
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not present what does that communicate
36:40
what do you do when you gather is it is
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it all a happy slappy Christian
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feel-good worship or do you actually
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have times where you gather together for
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lament do you gather together for
36:52
confession do you gather together for
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other things other than just Rara right
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not that that’s always bad but if every
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time you gather it’s all the focus just
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on the pastor and the only thing you do
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is celebrate how great life is all the
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time you are not forming people’s
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affection remember when
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had it wasn’t Michael Ganga the other
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Ganga on the statement David go David
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Geiger yeah we had David conquer the
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younger Ganga I like the other younger
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governor to show and he was talking
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about worship music and just analyzing
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it and and how the modern worship song
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and the way it’s played is designed to
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evoke a transcendent emotional
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experience not necessarily for the right
37:30
reasons right and that he was trying to
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write music that intentionally didn’t do
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that that didn’t push the buttons that
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were used to having pushed by a well
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produced worship performance but then
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you listen to that and you experience
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that it’s like wow I didn’t feel I
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didn’t it didn’t quite have the same
37:48
feeling but what he’s trying to do is we
37:50
knew aught of fishel response just based
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on you know well this is the point where
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the drums kick in extra loud and the
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bass you know doubles and now you feel
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Jesus you know he’s saying no let’s just
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you know if you ever been to a taizé
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service just you know just quite to sing
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quietly with no crescendos in the
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singing you know for a half an hour
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straight can be deeply moving but it’s
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so foreign you know to the way most of
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us are brought up or experienced church
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okay so senior pastors need to be more I
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think we need to reckon it first of all
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usually you should really read James
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Smith’s book okay Jamie Smith’s book and
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understand these ideas more and how
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we’re actually created to be shaped by
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our affections rather than just our
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intellect and then secondly you need to
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do the work with other leaders in the
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church of thinking through what
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affections are we targeting and shaping
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in the way we do our gatherings and
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perhaps unintentionally reinforcing the
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wrong things here’s an example back when
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years and years probably 10 years ago
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we were launching a congregation out in
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Warrenville that I was more or less in
38:56
charge of really more or less and and we
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we had a young we had a kid in the
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congregation who had pretty significant
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mental disabilities and severe
39:06
disabilities and and he would at times
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burst out in the service with noises or
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he just he couldn’t control himself and
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it was not a big congregation and you
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know when those things happen I realize
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I have a
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I have an opportunity here and how I’m
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gonna respond especially if it’s in the
39:23
middle of my sermon or other people in
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the congregation and there have been
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stories of large churches where this has
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happened with other handicapped people
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and they assure them out because it’s
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you’re disturbing people from focusing
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on the pastor from focusing on the music
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or whatever and we decided the way we’re
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gonna respond is to acknowledge it and
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recognize that this young man is as much
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a part of the body of Christ as the rest
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of us and this is a place in a community
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in which everyone is welcome and we want
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to actually utilize this as a formative
39:51
moment where we can put our personal
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desires aside for maybe a really quiet
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space and awakening us a desire for
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inclusivity that we want everybody to be
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welcomed into this space even those who
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aren’t able to sit quietly the way right
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we may prefer so it also speak to babies
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right and quiet rooms and mega churches
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to put the moms with noisy kids in yeah
40:14
and it isn’t that one there’s just two
40:16
different values competing there one
40:18
isn’t the value of my comfort and the
40:20
others of value of community inclusive
40:22
‘ti and a lot of churches in America
40:26
tend to take the dominant American
40:27
cultural values and give those the trump
40:30
card for lack of a better word right and
40:31
anything that’s going to push people
40:33
outside of that comfort zone well that
40:36
must be bad mm-hmm and that’s that’s how
40:39
you attract a lot of people that’s part
40:40
of the turn in the culture you know that
40:43
Willow Creek and the mega church
40:44
movement represented of okay people have
40:47
changed they don’t like the way we used
40:50
to do Church let’s pull them and see
40:53
what they would be comfortable with you
40:56
know let’s meet in the middle and what
40:57
there’s got to be a part of that that’s
40:59
a good thing right meeting yeah I mean
41:02
well I mean I think the value that would
41:03
probably be expressed by those folks as
41:06
that of hospitality we want to create a
41:08
husband and that’s a good value a safe
41:09
place for a dangerous message right
41:11
that’s what I heard over and over again
41:12
with the seeker sensitive moment going
41:13
to create a safe place for a dangerous
41:15
message although it’s tempting to never
41:17
quite get to the dangerous mess that’s
41:18
the temptation has they stopped coming
41:21
mm-hmm yeah all right and the thing is
41:25
if it’s only a dangerous message yet
41:27
engages our minds it’s not really the
41:29
gospel right it has to be a dangerous
41:31
community it has to be a community
41:32
that is gonna force us to come to terms
41:35
with our desires that may or may not
41:36
conform to Christ’s safe place for a
41:38
dangerous let bikers know but it’s the
41:42
sense that is this community really
41:44
gonna call me to take up my cross and
41:45
sacrifice myself or is it a place where
41:47
I can be as narcissistic and
41:48
self-centered as everyone else in
41:50
America but just have a sense of fire
41:51
insurance that I’m not gonna go to hell
41:53
for it right but I think you know
41:55
ultimately what it comes down to is that
41:57
we have to take individual
41:59
responsibility to to be changed people
42:03
to be the change we want to see in the
42:06
world
42:12
change does begin with us I’ve got a
42:15
good wrap-up song well I do think though
42:17
if you are a church leader you have the
42:19
added responsibility of shepherding
42:21
people and creating a community where
42:25
values are cultivated that train people
42:28
to love the things of God can you think
42:30
of a message you preached that was
42:32
intentionally designed to change or
42:37
raise this issue address affections yeah
42:40
but I don’t think it primarily happens
42:41
well through preaching oh great that’s
42:43
and that’s another problem is we have
42:45
this bias that the thirty minutes that
42:47
the pastor speaking is the formative
42:48
moment right it’s getting to the head it
42:51
is and there’s a place for that I’m not
42:53
saying it’s all bad but here’s the
42:54
problem you’ve all been sitting in
42:56
church for decades and I’m guessing and
42:58
look at us right you’re a mess no but
43:01
you I you could probably count three or
43:03
four sermons in your life that have
43:05
probably been deeply impactful yeah
43:07
right yeah and you probably can’t even
43:09
recall ninety-eight percent of it right
43:11
right you can probably if you get if you
43:14
say if you start humming the bars to
43:16
some songs popular that you could PI
43:17
start singing them right away yeah and
43:19
those songs are probably more formative
43:21
in your understanding of your faith and
43:22
diamonds should be sung is that what
43:24
you’re saying I’m saying sermons need to
43:25
be seen as one facet of a multi-faceted
43:28
gathering that trains one’s affections
43:30
and this is where I think more symbolic
43:32
and liturgical traditions have a better
43:35
understanding of human nature than those
43:37
that only emphasize the spoken word
43:39
because spoken word is one element but
43:41
we have visual components to us we have
43:44
bodily components movement
43:46
we have symbols we have practices that
43:49
the church calendar and other traditions
43:51
were engaging in a meaningful way in a
43:53
repetitious way that shapes what we want
43:55
and desire much more than just the
43:57
spoken word does in fact when you get
43:59
too attached to spoken words you end up
44:00
developing an affection for the person
44:02
speaking it more than the word itself
44:04
and that’s where you get the cult of
44:06
personality that he’s talking about in
44:07
our celebrity have angelical will so
44:10
which denomination gets it right
44:12
mine the Church of sky right no no they
44:17
all have their shortsightedness and
44:19
their problems but we I think in general
44:21
American culture has latched on to a
44:24
verbal celebrity-driven personality and
44:28
baudet form of Christianity that seems
44:30
to dominate right how can you be okay
44:32
with not doing the things that appear to
44:36
be creating success for the churches
44:38
well you got to read to find success
44:39
because that definition of success is
44:41
probably based on desires which you
44:42
inherited from the culture well then
44:43
that goes back to your point of if
44:45
pastors really start changing things up
44:47
like like you’re talking about all just
44:50
get smaller all of a sudden you know a
44:53
pastors may not have a job and be you
44:56
know churches are gonna start
44:57
disintegrating I mean you know there
44:59
could be some radical changes if that
45:01
really started happening or we changed
45:03
nothing and we get Donald Trump or we
45:05
change nothing and we get Donald Trump
45:07
but he’s popular and I’m sure after he
45:09
leaves the White House he’ll probably
45:10
have a mega ministry so your tongue is
45:13
not going to the White House how much
45:16
could he get for a speech after the
45:18
White House oh my word can we just not
45:20
talk about this anymore
45:22
just think about no mine okay well I
45:29
don’t mean to kick it in the rope but
45:32
there are some things we can learn from
45:34
Trump like taking a little bit of a
45:39
deflection to rethink what we’ve made
45:41
our
45:42
factions in the church and in our homes
45:45
I don’t mean to make you moan but we
45:49
might need to sacrifice more spend a
45:53
little less time watching TV on the
45:55
floor and look to Jesus as our affection
46:00
because that’s the one and true and holy
46:03
direction we should go you could play
46:09
that as a worship song on Sunday morning
46:11
and then I’ll get a nickel through CC Li
46:14
and happy Easter happy Easter everybody
46:16
let’s do an Easter special oh it’s too
46:19
late too late now next year mr. special
46:21
next year hi everybody
46:31
you