openpolitics.com

35:27

great you know there’s just tremendous

35:29

homogeneity now in in american culture

35:32

right

35:32

uh it’s the idea that these are the

35:34

types of people

35:36

who should be both in charge

35:39

of talking about liberal left

35:42

politics and who should really be in

35:44

charge of the country in general there

35:45

are people who right now have cultural

35:46

hegemony in this country

35:48

right um and it’s the idea that these

35:51

people

35:52

are sort of the these are the people who

35:55

embody

35:56

what should be american morality right

35:58

now right these are the people who

36:00

embody what that is and

36:01

should hold the cultural level levers of

36:04

power in the country and who

36:05

should have the power to be speaking on

36:09

uh the important topics of the day

36:12

so that’s sort of what i mean by that

36:14

what is joe what does joe rogan

36:16

lack on that list of

36:20

attributes that people think define

36:22

those who should be

36:23

exerting influence and power over our

36:25

discourse in politics

36:27

well i think what he lacks is i mean

36:30

the most important thing he lacks is

36:33

the um willingness to exclude everyone

36:36

else from the debate who isn’t a part of

36:39

that culture i mean i think that’s

36:40

probably the primary thing that enrages

36:43

them

36:43

is that he i mean one of the reasons why

36:47

his show is so popular is that it’s a

36:49

really powerful cross-pollination

36:51

of ideas of different fields of

36:53

different

36:54

industries people from all these

36:56

different walks of life

36:58

um it’s you know it’s it’s a great

37:00

reflection of internet culture you know

37:01

one of the reasons why the show is so

37:03

popular is that it kind of operates on

37:04

internet time

37:06

right as opposed to you know cable news

37:08

that

37:09

is kind of really slow to pick up on

37:11

things probably because of its older

37:12

demographic whereas

37:14

joe rogan is able to seize on something

37:16

that appeared on a message board

37:17

yesterday right and i mean even if you

37:19

watch his show

37:20

um they’re able to fact that fat check

37:23

themselves in real time right he’s got

37:25

his sidekick there jamie who

37:27

pulls something up to verify whether

37:29

what joe

37:30

what joe just said is totally full of

37:32

i mean that’s not something you’re

37:33

going to see chris hayes do

37:35

or sean hannity do right like that’s

37:37

just not the way it works

37:38

everyone’s online today i mean the

37:41

entire country is essentially getting

37:42

email

37:43

and facebook and all that jazz like why

37:45

bother

37:46

doing it in this particular medium that

37:49

has an inherent time constraint

37:51

well you’re right i mean the internet

37:53

has revolutionized

37:55

politics and in many ways good ways we

37:58

use

37:59

our social media our email list which is

38:01

very large

38:02

we every day we’re sending out stuff and

38:04

other candidates are doing it the same

38:05

way

38:05

but television still has a very

38:07

important role to be playing um and so

38:09

probably it’s it’s partly that uh and

38:12

it’s

38:12

and it’s partly you know his his

38:15

willingness

38:16

to transgress on issues that are

38:19

considered

38:20

sacred right not necessarily obviously

38:23

the big one nowadays is the trans issue

38:25

the transgenderism issue

38:26

he’s willing to talk about that and he’s

38:28

willing to bring in

38:30

um perspectives on it that right now

38:33

liberals are just have

38:34

zero zero tolerance for um and so

38:38

so let me let me let’s stop there for a

38:40

second so

38:42

you know i’m i’m i’m i to kind of

38:46

present what i think would be the

38:49

best or strongest case that a liberal

38:52

would make for why joe rogan ought to be

38:54

regarded

38:56

certainly not as an ally and even as an

38:58

enemy

38:59

and one is the one that you just put

39:01

your finger on so this week there was a

39:03

report in vice

39:05

that employees of sportify which is the

39:08

platform that essentially just paid joe

39:10

rogan

39:11

in excess of 100 million dollars for his

39:14

show exclusively to appear there

39:16

are upset um and it came from

39:20

how they what they described themselves

39:22

as being lgbtq

39:24

a i plus employees

39:28

and allies so not just the lgbtqai plus

39:33

employees but also their allies are

39:36

upset because

39:38

in particular he has had on his show

39:41

number one an author who has argued

39:45

that there are times when young people

39:49

are influenced to believe

39:53

that they have gender dysphoria and to

39:55

even begin

39:56

irreversible transitions when in fact

40:00

they don’t have gender dysphoria because

40:02

of the culture that is encouraging them

40:05

to think that to what

40:06

in other words questioning whether young

40:08

people are being misdiagnosed

40:10

with gender dysphoria who don’t in fact

40:12

have it and there are definitely people

40:14

who

40:14

have said that they have been that

40:16

they’ve gone through that process only

40:17

to realize that

40:19

that wasn’t their issue so that was one

40:22

of the problems is just

40:23

airing an author who did research and

40:26

science

40:27

who said that to some extent people are

40:30

being misdiagnosed

40:31

and then i guess the other one was him

40:33

being an mma fan

40:35

a fighting fan as you alluded to earlier

40:38

questioning whether it’s fair

40:40

to allow uh trans women who

40:44

live their lives uh as biological men

40:47

who went through puberty as biological

40:49

men who developed muscle mass and

40:50

hormones and

40:52

um the entire physiology of a man to

40:55

then

40:56

transition and compete with cis women

41:00

something that people like martina

41:01

navratilova who’s been a long time

41:04

advocate for trans people have asked as

41:06

well and that

41:07

essentially this demonstrates his

41:09

willingness not just to air these

41:11

views but to even kind of wonder them

41:13

himself

41:14

suggests that he’s transphobic which is

41:16

a form of bigotry

41:18

and we ought not to have any kind of

41:21

alliance with

41:22

or support for people who are bigots

41:25

that’s one of the

41:27

cases that is made against joe oregon

41:29

why isn’t that valid

41:30

so i mean it goes to the point that i

41:32

that the question you just asked

41:34

me and the point that i made which is

41:36

that you know

41:38

what makes what makes it what makes joe

41:41

rogan

41:41

seen as not an ally and you know

41:45

what makes him come across as not an

41:47

ally is that he is not

41:48

actively engaged in the culture war

41:50

right i mean what’s so crucial to people

41:53

who are actually

41:54

actively engaged in liberal culture war

41:56

is that you have to be

41:58

actively seen as saying you know this is

42:00

our line and anyone who does not

42:03

um hew to this line is the enemy right

42:06

and if you’re not

42:06

a part if you’re not a part of the

42:08

solution you’re a part of the problem

42:09

essentially

42:10

and so when joe rogan someone like joe

42:12

rogan comes along and says hey there are

42:14

some interesting issues here hey

42:16

let’s talk about this hey there are some

42:18

certain scientific studies

42:19

that immediately raises all the alarms

42:22

in people’s heads

42:24

saying that uh oh this is not one of us

42:26

this is not one of the allies right like

42:28

this isn’t someone who is going

42:30

to be doing the work that we define

42:32

ourselves by

42:33

the work of advancing the culture war

42:37

right and if you’re not advancing the

42:39

culture war

42:40

then you’re as good as the enemy if not

42:42

the enemy is ironic right because like

42:44

george george bush’s

42:45

911 formulation that liberals

42:48

incessantly not just mock but we’re

42:51

very alarmed by was that you know

42:54

every country has a choice you’re with

42:56

us or you’re with the terrorists it’s

42:58

one or the other there’s no middle

43:00

ground if you’re not

43:02

actively supporting what we’re doing

43:03

we’re going to regard you as an

43:05

ally of the terrorists or even one of

43:08

the terrorists and that means that

43:10

for example in the culture war you

43:13

become the enemy not merely by

43:16

advocating against trans rights but

43:20

questioning the premises the science

43:23

behind the implications of these very

43:25

profound social changes

43:27

that a lot of people are advocating

43:29

right and and that’s what you saw from

43:30

this vice article right

43:32

um it was actually a perfect case study

43:35

i mean first of all the headline said

43:37

joe rogan’s transphobic episode or

43:40

something like that or

43:41

transphobic joe rogan you know it

43:43

clearly editorialized before you even

43:45

you didn’t i mean you didn’t even have

43:47

to read the article right like you you

43:48

just read the headline and you know

43:50

exactly what the article is saying

43:52

but beyond that it also completely

43:55

sidestepped the debate as we’re just

43:56

saying now right

43:58

this episode that they’re talking about

43:59

that that’s causing all the drama

44:01

internally and spotify if you watch it

44:04

there’s

44:04

two important things to know about it

44:06

first of all before

44:08

anything happened and again the reason

44:10

why this stuff works so well is because

44:12

no one actually listens to the episodes

44:13

who care involved in this

44:15

in this war right in these battles

44:16

because or they see

44:18

like one minute chosen snippets

44:20

deliberately selected to

44:22

cast it in the responsible light right

44:26

right exactly but so he starts off right

44:28

off the bat and he’s

44:29

and he says this episode is not about

44:31

adults right

44:32

this is not about trans adults we

44:34

completely believe in trans adult rights

44:37

we believe in their identities

44:38

we are completely supportive of them um

44:41

i joe rogan and completely a supporter

44:45

of trans adults right so that’s

44:46

important to set aside

44:48

um because right off the bat you know

44:50

that he’s not talking about

44:52

tran the idea of transgenderism in

44:54

general obviously right

44:56

you can’t i’ve heard him say before i’ve

44:58

heard him say before

45:00

not only do i fully support the complete

45:04

range and panoply of

45:07

robust equal legal rights for trans

45:09

people

45:10

and not only do i believe that they have

45:12

the absolute right to live their lives

45:14

with full and complete dignity and

45:15

liberty

45:16

which is consistent with his overall

45:18

philosophy i’ve heard him say

45:20

i have nothing but love in my heart for

45:22

trans people in fact

45:23

admiration for people who are willing to

45:27

defy societal convention to be

45:29

who they are so it’s almost like even on

45:32

the question of trans issues

45:34

from a liberal perspective he’s way

45:38

ahead of

45:39

the vast majority of where the

45:40

population is in terms of how he talks

45:42

about it

45:43

um so you’re right he he carves out this

45:47

kind of

45:48

you know um territory that he’s saying

45:51

i’m not

45:52

questioning the rights fully of trans

45:55

adults to live a complete and full

45:57

life filled with dignity and love um

46:01

so what is it that that became

46:02

problematic

46:04

so what became problematic is that you

46:06

know the rest of the show

46:08

is devoted to the issue of children

46:11

who you know children teenagers

46:15

people going through adolescence who

46:18

come across the idea of transgenderism

46:21

and think that maybe transgenderism has

46:24

some kind of answers

46:26

for what may be the natural kind of

46:29

patterns and challenges that children go

46:32

through in young age

46:33

um you know normally and also you know

46:36

in these days

46:37

we’re suffering through a mental health

46:38

crisis right one that probably

46:40

even preceded um coded but has just been

46:44

amped up

46:44

greatly during covid right but generally

46:47

the

46:47

the idea and the author of the book who

46:49

i will say you know the the author of

46:51

the book the title

46:52

was a little bit sensationalist and i

46:54

think that’s probably driving a

46:56

little bit you know it’s something like

46:57

they’re coming for our daughters or

46:58

something like that which you know

47:00

listen i if i was advising someone to

47:02

write a book that you want well received

47:03

broadly

47:04

you might do a better job with the title

47:06

but and that’s not and that’s not a book

47:09

written by joe it’s not a book written

47:10

by joe rogan it’s a book written

47:14

not always favorably right he

47:16

interrogated that person on

47:17

a lot of those premises exactly and he

47:20

did and he did do a good job of actually

47:22

kind of talking about the cover and

47:23

saying well why did you go with this

47:24

cover

47:25

and i mean it was he did this job on

47:27

that end actually right

47:28

um but more importantly this entire

47:32

episode was talking about

47:33

whether there’s an issue with kids

47:37

that you know kind of exploring

47:39

transgenderism and actually

47:41

moving forward with it when maybe it’s

47:43

not it maybe it’s

47:44

sort of a product of just a tumultuous

47:47

adolescence and maybe

47:49

allowing children to do this and engage

47:51

in this is maybe not the right move

47:53

essentially saying

47:54

maybe these children who think they’re

47:55

trans aren’t actually trans and maybe we

47:58

should be

47:58

engaging the science engaging um

48:02

engaging the experts on this issue to

48:04

kind of sort this out so that

48:06

you know we’re not we’re not kind of

48:09

sending people

48:10

on this path that will sort of you know

48:12

uproot their lives and

48:14

things that they’ll have to undo later

48:16

on and just causing more trauma into

48:18

adulthood right

48:19

it’s a way to argue against that which

48:20

is to say well no we’ve talked to the

48:22

experts and the experts say this isn’t a

48:24

widespread

48:25

issue or when we interrogate these

48:27

children who think they might be trans

48:29

there are real reasons why they think

48:31

they are or you know look into that

48:33

literature

48:33

bring it up bring the experts in and

48:35

actually engage this debate but of

48:37

course that’s not what they’re in for

48:38

right like this that’s not what this is

48:40

about

48:40

this is about immediately kind of

48:43

shutting down the debate

48:44

and saying okay you’re on the you’re not

48:47

you’re not advancing

48:49

the the cause the trans cause and the

48:51

broader culture cause so you’re clearly

48:52

part of the problem you’re not being an

48:54

ally right and that’s why

48:56

this word ally is has become so

48:58

important and this broader kind of

49:00

critical theory culture war

49:02

um dynamic is because this idea of ally

49:07

it’s not just it’s not a it’s not just

49:09

an affirmational

49:11

kind of identity of being an ally but

49:12

it’s a negational identity right what

49:14

it’s saying is that

49:15

if you’re an ally it means you’re

49:17

actually part of this

49:19

right you’re not you’re not someone who

49:21

is just letting it happen or working

49:23

against us if you’re not an ally

49:25

it’s not just that you’re being lazy

49:26

they’re not trying to you know when they

49:28

say you’re not an ally what they’re

49:29

saying is that you’re the enemy

49:31

right yeah you know there’s several

49:32

there’s there’s a couple things really

49:34

interesting to me about that which is

49:36

obviously part of my formative

49:38

experience in

49:39

being politically engaged was being part

49:43

of the gay rights movement

49:44

in the late 80s or even the mid 80s to

49:48

late 80s when i kind of came of age as

49:51

a gay teenager in the reagan years there

49:53

was obviously just like there is against

49:56

trans people now it sustained an

49:57

organized demonization campaign

49:59

right obviously the people who were just

50:02

you know

50:03

close-minded malicious bigots

50:06

were not people that you regarded as

50:08

allies those are people you were willing

50:09

to kind of demonize and scorn but the

50:11

reason why

50:13

that debate ended up being won by

50:16

advocates of

50:17

gay equality was because we were

50:19

constantly searching for ways to

50:22

engage people and to change their minds

50:24

and

50:25

encouraging those questions to be asked

50:27

based on the recognition

50:29

that if you want to usher in very

50:31

profound

50:32

changes to how society functions

50:35

and do so in a way that requires a

50:38

majority to support you

50:40

even though the majority is not um part

50:43

of the group who’s

50:45

on be on whose behalf you’re advocating

50:48

dialogue

50:48

and engagement is crucial and so people

50:51

who want to

50:52

engage and ask questions are are things

50:54

that you’re happy about not people that

50:56

you want to denounce

50:57

the other thing i find so um

51:00

kind of baffling and confounding about

51:03

this

51:04

taboo on asking in particular

51:07

whether or not children or teenagers are

51:11

being

51:12

uh misdiagnosed with gender dysphoria

51:15

for cultural reasons or social reasons

51:17

or because the

51:18

the understanding of it is so

51:19

preliminary um

51:21

aside from the fact that just in general

51:23

you want medicine and science and

51:26

mental health uh professionals always

51:29

asking

51:30

whether misdiagnoses are taking place

51:32

but

51:33

there’s this kind of morality now as i

51:35

know all too well and as people have

51:37

been seeing

51:38

you know it’s kind of made its

51:40

appearance in the alex morse

51:41

scandal where there’s this now

51:44

growing uh orthodoxy among

51:49

in left global politics that if you’re a

51:51

young adult

51:53

23 21 20 you lack the capacity to make

51:58

decisions for yourself that are truly

52:00

consensual about who you want to date

52:02

who you want to have sex with

52:03

frequently people cite neurological

52:06

research that says your brain isn’t

52:07

fully formed

52:09

and that therefore if someone is 28 or

52:11

30 like alex morse was

52:13

he shouldn’t be dating or having sex

52:14

with 21 or 22 year olds even if they say

52:17

they want to

52:18

because 21 and 22 year olds aren’t

52:20

capable of making

52:21

a much a pretty limited choice do i want

52:23

to have sex with this person on this

52:25

particular night or date them and yet

52:27

those same people who say that 21 year

52:30

olds or 20 year olds

52:31

aren’t capable of deciding for

52:33

themselves whether to date an older

52:35

person or whether to have sex with an

52:36

older person

52:37

want to put it off limits whether a 14

52:41

year old or a 15 year old

52:43

is sufficiently mature and has the

52:46

emotional sophistication

52:48

to make permanent life-altering

52:50

decisions about

52:51

what their gender is to the point of

52:53

having surgeries or

52:55

hormonal treatments that will alter

52:57

themselves

52:59

forever um and you know i think that

53:03

um one of the

53:07

kind of uh phenomenon that we’re seeing

53:10

in liberal

53:10

culture increasingly that’s reflected in

53:13

this treatment of joe robin

53:15

rogan as a homophobe not for saying

53:17

anything disparaging

53:19

about trans people or advocating against

53:21

equal rights quite the contrary

53:23

he he he doesn’t do that he advocates

53:26

for rights

53:27

is the idea that simply asking questions

53:29

even in response to things that probably

53:31

ought to be interrogated

53:33

is considered itself almost as bad as

53:37

malice and bigotry itself they’re kind

53:40

of equated

53:41

in a way that just will inherently repel

53:44

people from a political movement that

53:46

says

53:47

that if you have questions you have no

53:49

right to ask them and simply asking them

53:51

makes you a bad person

53:53

right and and the the i think the uh the

53:56

tying

53:56

kind of thread there is that this is

53:59

again it’s it’s about this delineation

54:02

that we have to make between liberal

54:04

politics and liberal culture

54:05

and the culture war um this is very much

54:08

about

54:09

a culture that has de-prioritized

54:12

political outcomes right

54:14

uh we see that with your example that

54:16

you just made

54:17

um with the gay rights movement we also

54:19

saw that with the alex morse campaign

54:20

right

54:21

we saw people who were much more focused

54:24

on maintaining

54:25

the integrity and the purity of the

54:28

battle they’re engaged in culturally

54:30

even at the expense of achieving real

54:33

political outcomes

54:34

right and as you just said you know

54:36

engaging debates is

54:38

is how you actually you know having that

54:41

cross-pollination of ideas

54:42

and and actually persuading people

54:44

actually engaging in persuasion

54:47

um rather than just kind of identifying

54:49

who’s on in my tribe who’s in your tribe

54:51

that’s how you achieve political

54:53

outcomes it was the same with the alex

54:54

morse right where it was

54:56

an allegation was made and we

54:58

immediately have to believe the

54:59

allegation

55:00

not investigate it because if you are a

55:03

you know if you’re a denier or if you

55:05

even hesitate to believe

55:07

what’s happening then you are not

55:09

promoting this broader idea

55:12

that there are victims in the world and

55:14

we’re not

55:15

kind of invested further investing in

55:16

the idea of victimization right

55:19

um victimization is this really core

55:21

concept to this culture where right like

55:23

we have to believe that there are

55:24

victims and we have to always support

55:27

the creation of new categories of

55:28

victimhood and if we don’t and if we’re

55:31

not engaged in that struggle

55:33

then we’re not pushing the culture war

55:34

and again it just shows

55:36

that maintaining the integrity of this

55:38

culture war is far

55:39

more important than even the political

55:41

outcomes and i think there may be some

55:43

very tangible reasons for that i think

55:45

a lot of the people that are engaged in

55:46

this stuff are people who do derive

55:49

power from cult power powerful cultural

55:51

centers right they work in academia

55:54

they work in the media and that’s how

55:55

they exert their power

55:57

over politics and over society because

55:59

again culture is how

56:01

we talk about ideas culture is how

56:04

we mold political ideas and say which

56:07

ideas can connect together which people

56:09

can connect together who can

56:10

hang out with who how cool you know

56:13

culture builds coalitions right

56:16

it builds political coalitions so um

56:19

i think there’s a very real reason why

56:22

people

56:22

are very concerned about maintaining the

56:25

integrity of this liberal culture

56:28

it’s because that’s where they derive

56:30

their power and in fact

56:32

you know they’re i mean it’s not a

56:34

surprise to see especially

56:35

now seeing cultural elites feel so

56:38

disempowered democratically right they

56:40

feel so politically disempowered

56:43

um that they would kind of throw

56:45

themselves completely into this culture

56:47

war because that’s the only place where

56:48

they can exert their power now right

56:50

and that’s why we see these insane sorts

56:53

of um

56:55

kind of concessions to even corporate

56:57

culture where they’re

56:59

so excited to allow corporations to

57:01

censor

57:02

free speech they’re so excited to allow

57:04

hr departments to and you know

57:06

indoctrinate people and run

57:08

programs on people and force people in

57:09

these programs where the people are

57:11

literally denouncing themselves because

57:13

of the way they’re born

57:14

it’s exerting power through culture

57:16

because you can’t do it politically

57:18

anymore politically it’s a lot harder

57:20

you have to get the people on your side

57:21

why would you want to get the people on

57:23

your side that’s a pain in the ass

57:24

so yeah exactly um so

57:28

and and i do think it’s interesting as

57:30

well that

57:31

that this whole concept of whether you

57:33

care about power or not because

57:35

you know i watched i mentioned martina

57:37

navratilova earlier who um

57:40

you know is obviously a person who i pay

57:42

attention to i’ve talked about before

57:44

and written about before how she was my

57:45

childhood hero

57:46

i was working on a film about her and it

57:48

was amazing to watch

57:49

that this person who is like one of the

57:52

main 20th century pioneers

57:54

of feminism she did as much to create

57:58

space for the ability of female athletes

58:01

to compete on equal terms with male

58:03

athletes in terms of money and

58:04

sponsorships and

58:05

corporations is probably anybody except

58:08

for billie jean king

58:09

she had a trans coach in 1883 and was

58:11

defending

58:13

not just lgbts and was one of the few

58:14

openly gay celebrities or athletes of

58:17

that era

58:18

you know all she kind of did was say hey

58:21

i’m kind of confused

58:23

is all you is the only thing you have to

58:25

do to enter

58:26

female professional sports and win all

58:29

the cash

58:30

awards and and prizes and trophies is

58:34

declare yourself a woman or are there

58:35

protocols

58:36

she was really asking earnestly and

58:39

in response she was just mauled um

58:42

with no generosity no kind of

58:46

you know uh consideration for her whole

58:48

history she was just instantly declared

58:50

a bigot the more she tried to defend

58:52

herself

58:53

the worse it got and then eventually

58:55

very soon thereafter she converted

58:57

into a real enemy she emerged two months

58:59

later and wrote this

59:01

article aggressively condemning the idea

59:04

that trans women should be able to

59:06

compete in female athletic and female

59:10

athletics because it the the the kind of

59:13

intolerance for her even asking

59:17

converted her it alienated her converted

59:19

her into an enemy and

59:20

it seems like people who don’t care

59:22

about outcomes are about winning

59:24

really don’t get bothered by that but

59:27

let me just ask you about one

59:28

the kind of the last um

59:32

kind of prong of the case of the liberal

59:34

case against joe rogan i find this one

59:36

really interesting

59:37

too which is you know people say

59:41

okay fine he he liked bernie like tulsi

59:45

um and yet i believe in 2016 if i’m not

59:48

mistaken

59:50

he said that he was voting for trump

59:51

over hillary

59:53

and i’m certain that after saying that

59:56

he

59:56

thought bernie was the best candidate

59:58

and really like tulsi

59:59

he’s now saying i can’t vote for biden i

60:02

probably would vote for trump over biden

60:05

which would is leading ripples to say to

60:07

people like you

60:09

why would we possibly why should we

60:12

possibly regard somebody

60:14

as an ally who is

60:18

saying twice now that they’re going to

60:19

vote for donald trump and i guess like

60:21

an

60:21

ancillary part of that question is you

60:24

know there is this phenomenon of people

60:26

who twice voted

60:27

for barack obama and then voted for

60:29

donald trump in 2016

60:31

not a small number a large number and

60:33

here in brazil

60:34

same thing you know a lot of people who

60:35

voted for bolsonaro in 2018

60:38

were people who voted for the workers

60:40

party four consecutive

60:42

elections so if you’re kind of a

60:44

political junkie who relies on the

60:46

polarization of choose between rachel

60:48

maddow and sean hanovey

60:50

it doesn’t make any sense that somebody

60:52

could do that to say i like bernie

60:54

but i’m gonna vote for trump because you

60:56

have to pick an ideological box

60:58

and joe rogan clearly is a person

61:01

who doesn’t think that way and i think

61:03

there’s like this liberal sense that

61:05

that makes him bizarre when in fact

61:07

i think it makes him pretty common it’s

61:09

one of the reasons why people like him

61:11

because he’s not in one of those boxes

61:13

but what do you say to liberals who

61:15

would make that argument that how can we

61:17

consider somebody supporting

61:19

this authoritarian racist for president

61:22

to be an ally

61:25

well i mean there are two things that

61:26

you you have to kind of

61:29

kind of set the record straight on first

61:31

is that i i’m pretty sure in 2016 he

61:33

voted for gary johnson so he voted for a

61:35

libertarian i don’t think he voted for

61:37

trump in 2016.

61:39

um and in 2020 again he first you know

61:42

supported tulsi

61:43

then he supported bernie um and then

61:46

most recently if you really

61:48

look at his comments it’s not that he’s

61:49

saying he’s endorsing trump but he’s

61:51

saying that

61:52

he would he would vote for trump um

61:55

as a result of the party choosing biden

61:57

because he just doesn’t think biden can

61:59

do the job

62:00

just from a kind of mental age

62:04

decline standpoint so it’s not like the

62:06

most heartfelt support of trump but yeah

62:08

i mean

62:08

let’s set that aside and just say okay

62:10

like he’s willing to vote for trump

62:12

right

62:12

um i mean the idea that you wouldn’t

62:15

want to engage

62:16

someone who is willing to go from the

62:19

most

62:20

liberal the most left candidate in the

62:23

democratic primary and willing to then

62:26

switch over to trump

62:27

i mean you know it’s the argument that

62:29

the left’s been making

62:30

for you know for years now right that

62:33

like

62:33

these this is the is the guy to be

62:36

studying right he’s the one that we can

62:38

kind of crack the code on

62:40

um as for you know why that’s the case

62:43

i think it’s real again it’s really

62:45

threatening i don’t think

62:46

you know i think the democratic

62:48

establishment what i tend to tell people

62:49

is that the democratic establishment

62:52

their main priority is not really to

62:54

actually even win elections

62:56

it’s to keep control of the democratic

62:58

party right like that’s where most of

63:00

their power comes from it’s certainly

63:01

where

63:02

their most reliable source of power

63:04

comes from it’s keeping control of the

63:05

party because as long as you can

63:07

keep control of the party and you keep

63:08

control of the cultural

63:10

um levers of power in the country

63:13

you’re always going to be able to

63:15

command 50

63:16

of the political system you’re always

63:18

going to be able to command

63:20

um you know the entire media apparatus

63:23

that’s devoted to politics right you’re

63:25

good

63:25

or at least half of it right you’re

63:27

going to in control the liberal half

63:29

and so i think it’s i i mean i it’s

63:32

i’m sorry to say but i think it’s a

63:34

really cynical calculation

63:36

that cultural elites and democratic

63:39

party elites are making when they make

63:41

these decisions because when when you

63:43

engage joe rogan

63:45

and you engage his viewers you’re being

63:47

bringing in

63:48

a ton of people who you can’t

63:50

necessarily rely on to keep these clean

63:52

lines of political and cultural

63:54

engagement you’re

63:55

you’re completely blowing up the

63:57

political system you’re you’re blowing

63:59

up the racket

64:00

right and why would you want to do that

64:02

because at the end of the day

64:04

hell trump could get reelected and

64:05

they’d still control the party they can

64:07

still control the other half they’d be

64:10

raising hundreds of millions of dollars

64:12

for their think tanks and therefore you

64:14

know the media institutions and so

64:16

it’s a great racket why would you risk

64:18

that just for

64:19

winning you know the presidency for

64:21

maybe four years eight years

64:22

don’t get me wrong obviously they’d like

64:24

to win that too

64:26

but i don’t think that’s the real game i

64:27

don’t think that’s ever been the real

64:28

game

64:30

we saw that in the uk right where the

64:33

centrists and playwrights and moderates

64:36

who controlled the labor party

64:38

levers of power forever whether they

64:40

were in power out of power

64:42

when they lost control of their own

64:44

party to jeremy corbyn

64:46

they it was very obvious if you’re just

64:48

paying minimal attention but we now know

64:50

from documents that have been leaked and

64:51

reports that have been issued

64:53

they were actively working against the

64:56

labor party they preferred

64:58

to destroy corbyn and retake control

65:01

of the party even if it meant empowering

65:04

the tories and making boris johnson

65:06

prime minister because as you say

65:09

their top priority is ensuring that they

65:11

maintain

65:12

control of their party and secondary

65:15

or even more distantly is actually

65:18

winning elections

65:19

um and you know i think that you know

65:22

it’s like when people ask me why i go on

65:23

tucker carlson i

65:24

can barely even understand the question

65:26

because it’s such an obvious answer

65:28

which is

65:29

because there are four million people

65:30

watching and whatever percentage it is

65:33

that i can reach in any way not

65:34

necessarily change their minds instantly

65:37

but just kind of make them a little more

65:38

open

65:39

to hearing from different people maybe

65:41

get them kind of unsettled about

65:44

who they should be paying attention to

65:46

or introducing some ideas that maybe

65:48

maybe it’s ten percent maybe it’s five

65:50

percent maybe it’s fifteen percent

65:52

why would i ignore that if i actually

65:54

care about outcomes

65:55

to watch you know i i it kind of shocked

65:58

me edward snowden

65:59

uh appeared on rogan’s show for the

66:02

second time this week and so i went back

66:03

to look at what the audience was the

66:05

first time he appeared which is

66:06

about 10 months ago and even though

66:09

edward snowden being edward snowden kind

66:11

of spoke in like a monologue form for

66:13

about

66:14

three hours you know and he was

66:16

obviously remote because he couldn’t

66:18

go to the studio since he’s trapped in

66:19

russia the audience for that

66:22

appearance from edward snowden just on

66:25

youtube never mind all the other

66:26

platforms

66:27

was 15 million people 15 million

66:31

um which is you know four or five times

66:34

the size

66:35

of a primetime cable host even on their

66:37

best night

66:38

and obviously by virtue the fact that

66:40

you watch it that people

66:42

listen to it and can hear him say i

66:44

support tulsi or i support

66:46

bernie obviously there’s huge numbers of

66:48

those

66:49

that audience that are very reachable

66:51

from a liberal perspective

66:53

anybody who says i don’t want to have

66:56

anything to do

66:57

with a show that reaches 15 million

66:59

people

67:00

is somebody to me who’s saying

67:04

i look at politics as about everything

67:06

other than

67:07

winning wielding power and changing the

67:10

world

67:11

right right and they shrouded in moral

67:13

language right they shrouded

67:15

in how could you associate with someone

67:17

like that how could you you’ll be

67:18

tainted by someone like that

67:20

um they shrouded in those things but at

67:22

the end of the day it’s a much more

67:24

cynical calculation it’s

67:25

it’s put forth as some kind of moral

67:28

decr

67:29

declaration but it’s really a cynical

67:31

calculation

67:32

calculation in terms of controlling the

67:33

party in terms of controlling cultural

67:36

power centers

67:37

why would we want to upset that this is

67:40

a great setup

67:41

um and yeah that’s why you see 15

67:43

million people tuning in to edward

67:45

snowden because it completely cult

67:47

cuts across all of these cultural lines

67:50

i mean there aren’t

67:51

you know being interested in edward

67:53

snowden just his story and what he did

67:55

and the cultural and political impact he

67:57

had

67:58

that’s not a liberal or conservative

68:00

idea that’s

68:01

that’s reaching millions of people um

68:03

but that’s just not interesting to

68:05

um what informs the you know the the

68:08

careers and the lifestyles of the people

68:10

that

68:11

sort of hold these both the political

68:13

and cultural

68:14

levers of power in the country yeah so

68:16

yeah so thanks very much for

68:18

for taking the time i i think is a

68:20

really important topic not just

68:22

because it’s important to understand the

68:24

phenomenon of joe rogan although that

68:25

is important there are very few people

68:28

having the kind of cultural

68:30

and political impact that he’s having

68:34

um in a reaching a group of people who

68:38

often tune out politics or who aren’t

68:40

engaged in the traditional ways which

68:42

makes him

68:44

even more important than just the

68:45

numbers alone but i do think too

68:47

the reaction to him tells us a lot about

68:50

how media figures view their position

68:52

how liberals view what their political

68:54

project uh is and so

68:56

um i i think your your analysis on

69:00

twitter and the discussion that we just

69:02

had

69:02

um has really clarified those issues in

69:05

in a really helpful way so thank you so

69:07

much for

69:08

taking the time to talk to me um and i

69:10

hope people will tune into your

69:13

back channel youtube program where

69:14

you’re doing a lot of these kind of

69:15

header docs

69:17

uh discussions with people across a wide

69:20

range of

69:21

ideological and cultural uh belief

69:24

systems so

69:24

thanks very much sean yeah thank you so

69:27

much i enjoyed it

69:36

you