Transcript
00:04welcome to the office hours my name is00:06John phia i chair the history department00:08here at messiah college and i also teach00:10American history this is episode 12 of00:13the office hours I am here in my office00:16with Megan p.m. are faithful filmer and00:20producer of these videos one of these00:22things were going to get Megan on camera00:24maybe we’ll do an interview with her00:25about that about the verge of making the00:28virtual office hours but what we want to00:31talk about today I look at this kind of00:33maybe that’s the last office hours in a00:36series that we’ve been doing now we’ve00:38been interrupted here and there with00:39some interviews and opportunities that00:41we’ve taken but I think this will be the00:43last the last segment in a series we’ve00:46been doing on how to think historically00:49and what you know the purpose of a00:52history major what his three majors can00:54do and so forth if you remember we00:56started back thinking about the five00:58seas of historical thinking we talked01:00about the past as a foreign country we01:03talked about the usefulness of the pass01:05of the usable pneus of the past I01:07suggested some ways in which Christians01:09might think about how to reflect on the01:12past like sin or the imago gay moral01:15criticism these kinds of things we01:18talked about history for a civil society01:21a couple couple episodes ago and now I01:25want to wrap this up with a discussion01:27about the history major and what you can01:30do with a history major so I’m talking01:32here directly to those of you who are01:34either in high school or college or have01:36kids who are in high school or college01:38who are interested in history and want01:41to think about you know why major in01:43history you know when you can major in01:45something else you know that might be01:47more at least that we might think might01:49be more beneficial in the marketplace01:51and so forth so that’s where we want to01:53focus our attention today much of the01:56the material that we’ve been doing in01:58the virtual office hours will make up02:00makes up as I mentioned before the bulk02:02of my book why study history and that02:05will be out in September I think the02:07subtitle is reflecting on the importance02:10of the past so many of these virtual02:11office hours segments will appear02:14in print form at least in prose in that02:17book so I hope you’ll grab that book and02:19you’ll you’ll take a look at it but the02:22question here what what can you do with02:24a history major we I’ve been wrestling02:27with this question I’ve been wrestling02:28with this question with my students let02:31me start off by telling you a little02:32story about a student of mine named a02:35former student of mine named Tara Tarawas a history major she was one of our02:40better history majors here in the02:42department when she graduated she02:44applied for a job working in a hospitalfor sick children in Malawi the Republic02:51of Malawi in Africa is not some kind of02:54Peace Corps worker she was in a02:55missionary of any time it was it this02:57was a job she applied for the job called03:00for someone to be I think the job title03:03was an embedded blogger within thiscommunity and the job description waswas basically Tara would spend timeduring the course of the day with theparents of the African children and the03:15children themselves and then she would03:17report on what she saw and you know03:20their experiences and their stories for03:23people back in the state so we’re03:25reading the blog of the hospital so they03:29would be able to know how to contribute03:31or you know make contributions and so03:33further find out just what’s going on I03:35went Tara interviewed for the job one of03:38the first things that they asked her was03:40why why are you applying for this job03:43you were a history major now inherent03:46within that question was a common03:47misconception about what history majorsdo obviously many people think historymajors just sort of are very good attrivia because they memorize facts and03:55dates and so forth and they’re good at03:57taking tests but that’s not the case at04:00all Tara seize the opportunity I would04:04ask about her history major and she said04:07you know why wouldn’t I be a leading04:09candidate for this job I’ve just spentfour years spending time with people soto speak people living in the past manyof them being dead but listening totheir voices from the documents thatI’ve studied and read the primarysources and then what did I do wellright papers i would tell their story iwould empathize with these people try tounderstand life from their perspective04:33and then tell the stories of their04:36experiences whether it be a paper04:39whether it be in a presentation whether04:41it be in some kind of exhibit or or04:43digital project whatever it was she04:45happened to be working on here in the04:47history department at Messiah so you04:50know think about the job she was being04:52asked to spend time listening to people04:56who are different than her malawi04:57children and parents listening to them05:00and then telling their stories she05:03looked she learned as a history major05:05not only sort of fundamental skills05:07about writing well listening well05:11researching taking information that she05:14had learned in the course of the day or05:16in the course of her fieldwork and05:18writing it up and making it presentable05:21to outside audiences but Tara also05:24learned these deeper skills that we’ve05:26talked about here skills like empathy05:28and understanding and trying to walk in05:30the shoes of people who are different05:32than her needless to say Tara got that05:35jihad not in spite of the fact that she05:37was a history major but because she was05:40a history major and I think if we can05:43have more terrorists out there if we can05:45teach our students that they have05:48certain skills that employers want I05:51think the stigma of sort of what can you05:54do with a history major may just go away05:58some of you know on my blog the way of06:01improvement leads hope I have06:02interviewed up to fly think it’s up to06:0540 now individuals who were history06:08majors in college and did not go the06:11traditional route that most history06:13majors go most history majors either go06:15to grad school in history they become06:17history teachers in public public and06:19private high schools or elementary06:22schools they go to law school they work06:24in a museum or historical society but06:26the people I interviewed were people who06:29did not go into any of those fields they06:31went into business they went into06:33medicine they went into computers they06:35went into writing they went into06:37journalism they went into06:40the ministry a host of different fields06:42and asked if they would do it again they06:45had to go back to college and knowing06:47what they know now in their professions06:49if they were major in history again they06:51all said that they absolutely would06:53because history provided them with the06:55kinds of skills and the kinds of virtues06:58in many cases that allowed them to07:00really prosper in their current their07:03current job situations and do very very07:05well so I’d encourage you to go check07:07out that vlog series so what can you do07:11with a history major maybe we’ll get an07:12image of that up here when we move this07:15thing into production one of the readers07:17of that blog series was a man named07:19Brian Brian what is the CEO of a major07:22finance corporation based in Raleigh07:25North Carolina and he read my series on07:28what you can do with a history major and07:30he sent me a nice letter and this is07:32what he said in that letter he said that07:35any good and well rounded liberal arts07:37education is a strong foundation for07:39business ultimately you have to be able07:41to write speak and think still for me07:44history is singularly the best07:47discipline for success in business who07:50imagine how shocked I was to read that07:51right that’s true of people in the07:53business department here at messiah07:55college might be surprised too but but07:57Brian goes on to say in history youlearn and become immersed in why peopleand groups do things over an extendedperiod of time history validates thatpeople and organizations act in clearrecognizable patterns you can learnabout human nature behavior becomes verypredictable which is vital in the field08:18of business again that’s just one08:20example of how history historians can08:22can use their skills I was recently at a08:25conference at Wake Forest University in08:28which I heard several CEOs of 500fortune 500 company saying we wantliberal arts majors we want historymajors because they can think they canwrite they can take small pieces ofinformation and make meaning out ofthose small pieces of information they08:46can take data and tell a story about the08:48data I you know they know they all said08:52to a to a08:53they said we’ll train you and how we08:55particularly to do business whether it08:57be at procter and gamble or at this bank08:59or whatever the company might be will09:03train you in the particulars but we want09:05someone who’s able to have those general09:07skills in many ways it’s a great point09:11most studies show that today’s09:14undergraduate students are going to09:16change jobs and maybe even change09:18careers or professions seven to ten09:21times over the course of their lives09:23that means they need those fundamental09:26skills of writing of thinking of09:28speaking empathizing of listening of09:32understanding that well-rounded history09:35education or generally humanities based09:38education that’s going to help them to09:40adjust and adapt to the changing09:42marketplace so when students tell me i09:46would like to major in history or what09:48can i do with a history major I tell09:51them several things one if you’re09:54picking a major follow your passion you09:57don’t want to spend four years studying09:59something that you know you have no10:01interest in its interested in or you10:03find boring but it may help you land10:05some kind of a job in the future follow10:08your passions and I think people who10:10follow their passions that kind of10:13passion will translate to potential10:16employers employers are looking for10:18people who are passionate about about10:21something so follow your passions if you10:23love history study history hi and and10:27don’t worry about you know where you’re10:29going to end up in the end or what kind10:30of job you can get because as I’m10:32suggesting there are lots of jobs out10:35there that you can do by studying the10:38past second though it’s not going to get10:40you anywhere if you study your passion10:42but you don’t act strategically or don’t10:45develop a confidence in the kind of10:48skills that you’re learning in studying10:50history it’s one thing to master10:52information it’s one thing to learn10:54these skills but you need to be10:56confident and develop the confidence to10:58be able to sit before a potential11:00employer like Tara did and say here is11:04why11:05should hire me as a history major these11:08are the skills that I bring to the table11:10here’s how I can help your business your11:12nonprofit organization whatever it11:15happens to be whatever the job happens11:17to be that you’re applying to this means11:20I think that history department cultures11:23need to change when I was at when I was11:26as undergrad or not I was in grad school11:29history departments undergraduate11:31history department celebrated the11:33student who got accepted into a11:35prestigious maybe Ivy League ph.d11:38program and that was the person that11:40appeared all the time on the promotion11:41literature that’s the kind of thing that11:43people the professors in the department11:45the kind of person they talked about11:47over and over again but what if the11:49culture of a history department changed11:51to such an extent that instead of11:54celebrating those people and granted we11:55still should celebrate them we also11:58celebrated the people who got person who12:00got a job in business or someone like12:02Tara who went overseas and served in12:04this hospital or someone who went into12:07medicine or someone who went into12:08computer science or somebody who became12:10a journalist or someone who went into12:12criminal justice or something with that12:15what if those people were celebrated in12:17our departments just as much as the12:20people who get into the prestigious law12:21schools and graduate schools so these12:25are some things to think about as to why12:27we should study history there are jobs12:29out there we need the confidence to be12:32able to talk about the skills and the12:33talents and the gifts and the training12:36that we have as historians to be able to12:39make an impact on the marketplace the12:41ever-changing marketplace so I think12:44this is a nice sort of capstone to what12:47we’ve been talking about the last 10 or12:4911 episodes here give or take with a few12:52little side tracks here and there you12:56know history historical thinking skills12:58learning how to use the past and make13:01the past speak to the present13:02understanding the past as a foreign13:04country thinking about the role of13:06history and cultivating a more robust13:09democratic society those are all good13:12things and are there things that need to13:14need to be thought about by history13:16students13:17but also there is a marketplace out13:20there for the kind of skills and talents13:22and gifts that all of us have so we13:26bring this conclusion to another section13:28session to an end this series to an end13:31if you might want to call it that here13:33in the office hours I’m not sure what13:34we’re going to do yet next week but will13:36happen effing Utley have something for13:38you make sure you get your hands on that13:40book in September why study history13:42reflecting on the importance of the past13:44and we will see you next time thank you
“Ben Franklin: Moralist”
John Fea’s Virtual Office Hours: Spring 2016 Season – Episode 12
Transcript
00:08
greetings everyone and welcome to
episode 12
the spring 2016 season of the virtual
office hours we are getting close to
wrapping up we actually have two more
episodes after this so stay tuned i hope
you’ll finish strong with us as you know
we are discussing the book was America
founded as a Christian nation this book
will be coming out in the fall and we
will be revisiting some of the themes in
that book in light of the release of the
revised edition in September so we
thought we’d go back and talk about some
of these things Abby Blakeney as always
our producer is with us and as you
remember we’ve been talking about the
various religious beliefs of the family
fathers the last third of the book
really focuses on those things I have
the founding fathers with me but
actually as some of you been watching
for a while you know these are the first
five presence there were people who
perhaps fall under the realm of founding
fathers that were not presidents of the
United States and one of those people is
someone who we want to talk about today
namely Benjamin Franklin Benjamin
Franklin was very very interested in
religion for his entire life in some
ways you know he may be one of the most
when the most thoughtful people about
religion he probably thought about it
more than many of the other founding
fathers one of my favorite stories about
Benjamin Franklin comes when he’s at the
end of his life and the president of
Yale University in one of the great
Connecticut New England Divine’s
ministers Ezra Stiles who had a lifelong
correspondence with rights Franklin a
letter towards the end of his life and
he essentially I think this is about
1790 and he essentially asks Franklin to
tell him you know what is what is your
Creed then what is your religious
beliefs now that you’re getting at the
end of the light end of your life and
here’s what Franklin said this is what
he said in his letter to styles here is
my Creed I believe in one God creator of
the universe that he governs it by his
providence that he ought to be
worshipped that the most acceptable
service we rendered to him is doing good
to his other
that the soul of man is immortal and
will be treated with justice in another
life respecting in conduct of this these
I take to be the fundamental principles
of all religion and I regard them as you
do in whatever sect I meet with them as
for Jesus of Nazareth my opinion of whom
you particularly desire I think the I
think the system of morals and his
religion as he left them to us the best
of the world the best the world ever saw
or is likely to see but I apprehended
has received various corrupting changes
and I have with most of the present
dissenters in England some doubts to his
divinity though it is a question I do
not dogma ties upon having never studied
it and think it needless to busy myself
with it now where I expect soon an
opportunity of knowing the truth with
Wes trouble again classic Ben Franklin
here again his Creed essentially he
believes that Jesus was great
philosopher great moral philosopher but
certainly was not God but what does he
know right he’ll find out soon and he’s
actually going to die shortly after he
writes this this uh decide this letter
two styles so so that’s Franklin’s Creed
at the end of his life very early in his
life Benjamin Franklin some of you know
he’s raised much like we talked about
John Adams last week he’s raised in a
Puritan family and much of his life i
think is an attempt to rise above or
overcome the limits especially the
limits of original sin he lived there
the limits of total depravity that that
new england life sort of placed upon him
so much of Franklin’s journey to
Philadelphia his quest for improvement
and experimentation and it’s been an
intellectual life is very much tied I
think with his motivations to sort of
break from his past in a very kind of
progressive almost there light in Midway
very early in his life he says that he
is a thoroughgoing deist what’s really
interesting about that is his father
gives
some deist reading reading by deists and
he read them instead of being convinced
as to how poor the argument of the DSR
he’s actually convinced by the deists
and claims he is a thoroughgoing deist
later in life I think his his deism if
he ever fully embraced it sort of
softens a little bit he certainly has a
place for Providence in his in his view
of the world there’s the famous moment
in the Constitutional Convention where
he asks God to intervene and asks for
prayer so his God is certainly not
someone who’s distant but someone who
can interject and intervene into human
life but ultimately Franklin’s religion
as I read from that quote is a religion
of virtue it’s a religion of morality he
works hard at trying to follow these
virtues that he lays out for himself he
is one of the more comical stories he
sort of worries that he’s being too
proud so he adds humility to his list of
virtues but if he could live just a sort
of good honest frugal moral life he
believes he’ll be judged in the end in a
very positive way so I think that’s the
story of Franklin read the book get some
more details as a little more complex
than that but but Franklin certainly is
someone who thought a great deal about
religion and believes that it like Adams
and the other founders it is it is
important to the moral progress of
society so thanks for watching we have
two more episodes left we’ll see you
next time on the virtual office hours
John Fea | The Moral Responsibility of the Historian and the Case for Christian America
March 29, 2011
Connect with Wheaton:
Transcript
00:00
so yeah it’s good to be here at Wheaton
00:01
I send you greetings from our sister
00:03
institution in Grantham Pennsylvania
00:05
Messiah the president reminded me that
00:09
you know I shouldn’t bring up anything
00:11
about soccer but from what I understand
00:13
that the biggest football is the big
00:15
sport here we in any way so so again
00:18
it’s good to be here and what I wanted
00:20
to do I’m really grateful for this
00:22
opportunity because what I what I when
00:25
Vince asked me to talk about history at
00:28
a sort of center for ethics it really
00:31
allowed me to sort of think about some
00:34
of the projects that I’ve worked on in
00:36
the past but also some of the things
00:37
that I’ve been thinking about for future
00:39
projects as some of you may know I just
00:42
completed a book called was America
00:45
found it as a Christian nation a
00:46
historical introduction and i’ll be
00:48
talking a little bit about that book
00:50
here tonight but i’m also i’m also
00:54
working on a book now on thinking
00:57
Christianly about the study of history
01:00
so reflecting on the role of
01:02
Christianity as a person of faith as a
01:04
Christian myself and how that relates to
01:05
what I do as a historian so we’re
01:08
working on a little primer on that that
01:10
could be used in you know in history
01:12
courses at Christian colleges so some of
01:14
the things that I’ve been able to do
01:16
with thinking about actually fit very
01:18
well with the with the topic and the
01:20
invitation you know historians aren’t by
01:23
nature sort of ethicists you know we are
01:26
we we sort of you know tell the story
01:28
and we let you know you decide whether
01:30
you know whether it was right or wrong
01:32
so this is so this is a great
01:34
opportunity for me to sort of think
01:35
about some of these things and things
01:36
that are very important to me as a
01:38
Christian and as a historian so my title
01:41
as we worked it out is the moral
01:43
responsibility of the historian and the
01:45
case for Christian America and let me
01:48
start off with a little vignette here
01:50
now during the week of jun 11 2007 4,000
01:55
christians converged on williamsburg
01:56
virginia to celebrate the 400th
01:59
anniversary of the founding of Jamestown
02:01
the first successful English colony in
02:03
North America the event was sponsored by
02:06
vision forum ministries an organization
02:09
that among other things is committed to
02:11
quote teaching history as the
02:13
of God unquote the Jamestown quadra
02:16
Centennial as it was called a
02:18
celebration of America’s providential
02:20
history was a gala event for the cost of
02:24
admission visitors were treated to
02:26
lectures on various themes at early
02:28
American history historical reenactments
02:30
Faith and Freedom tours of Williamsburg
02:33
in Yorktown and even hot air balloon
02:35
rides over the site of the Jamestown
02:37
Settlement one of the highlights of the
02:39
week was a children’s parade led by a
02:41
pocahontas reenactor a thousand boys and
02:44
girls dressed in period clothing marched
02:46
in a one-mile perception to commemorate
02:49
the planting of this historic colony the
02:52
week came to an end for these American
02:54
Christian pilgrims with a Sunday morning
02:56
worship service the vision forum
02:59
gathering differed markedly from the
03:02
celebration plan by the national
03:03
government and its jamestown 400th
03:06
commemoration commission while both
03:09
events featured activities for families
03:10
and an array of educational
03:12
opportunities the government sponsored
03:15
commemoration did not include lectures
03:17
and seminars with titles such as
03:19
Jamestown’s legacy of christ liberty and
03:23
common law or refuting the revisionists
03:27
on america’s four hundredth birthday nor
03:30
did the brochures advertising various
03:32
tours of jamestown read like the one
03:34
being promoted by a popular Christian
03:36
radio host and theologian quote join
03:39
Gary de Mar as he presents well
03:41
documented facts which will change your
03:44
perspective about what it means to be a
03:45
Christian in America if you are tired of
03:48
the revisionism of the politically
03:49
correct crowd trying to whitewash our
03:51
Christian history you will not want to
03:53
miss this tour unquote the providential
03:57
historians quadra Centennial was part of
04:00
an attempt as many of you may already
04:01
know by some evangelicals to reclaim
04:05
what they believed to be America’s
04:06
Christian heritage they have made the
04:09
relationship between religion and the
04:10
creation of the American Republic a
04:12
dominant topic of debate in our recent
04:15
culture wars many well-meaning
04:17
Christians like those associated with
04:19
the vision forum believed that America
04:21
was founded as a uniquely Christian
04:24
nation these Evan Jellico’s have
04:27
use this historical claim to justify
04:29
policy on a host of moral and cultural
04:32
issues facing the United States today
04:35
the study of the past they argue has
04:38
been held hostage by secularists who
04:40
have rejected the notion that the
04:41
American founders sought to forge a
04:43
country that was Christian instead they
04:46
argue these revisionist wrongly claimed
04:49
that the American Revolutionary era was
04:51
informed by enlightenment ideals about
04:53
toleration pluralism and rights in their
04:58
attempt to counter these arguments some
04:59
believers in a Christian America have
05:01
supported House Resolution 888 and
05:04
attempt by Christian lawmakers in
05:07
Congress to establish an American
05:09
religious history week that celebrates
05:12
quote the rich spiritual and religious
05:14
history of our nation’s founding unquote
05:16
others have taken control of the Texas
05:19
State Board of Education in an attempt
05:21
to change the state social studies
05:23
curriculum to better represent the
05:25
Christian themes that they believe all
05:27
schoolchildren should study and learn
05:30
was America founded as a Christian
05:33
nation in my experience as a Christian
05:36
and a Christian college history
05:38
professor I have found that many average
05:40
churchgoers and potential Messiah
05:44
college students and their parents are
05:46
often confused about this topic
05:49
unfortunately those who dominate our
05:51
public discourse tend to make matters
05:53
worse for example during the 2008
05:56
presidential campaign Republican
05:59
candidate John McCain announced that
06:01
quote the Constitution established the
06:03
United States of America as a Christian
06:05
nation unquote but the Constitution
06:08
actually says nothing about the
06:09
relationship between Christianity and
06:11
the United States similarly former
06:15
Arkansas governor and McCain’s fellow
06:16
presidential candidate Mike Huckabee
06:18
said on the campaign trail that most of
06:21
the 56 men who signed the Declaration of
06:24
Independence were clergymen in fact only
06:26
one member of the clergy signed the
06:28
Declaration of Independence college of
06:31
new jersey president john witherspoon
06:33
recently television personality glenn
06:35
beck has devoted his friday afternoon
06:38
shows to the religious beliefs
06:39
of the founders we live in a soundbite
06:43
culture that makes it difficult to have
06:44
any sustained dialogue on these
06:47
historical issues it is easy for those
06:49
who argue that America is a Christian
06:51
nation and I might add for those who do
06:53
not to appear on radio radio or
06:56
television programs quote from one of
06:58
the founders one of the nation’s
06:59
founding documents and sway people to
07:02
their positions these kinds of arguments
07:05
which can often be quite contentious do
07:08
nothing to help us unravel a very
07:10
complicated historical puzzle about the
07:12
relationship between Christianity and
07:14
the American Founding it is not just the
07:18
secularists and the Christians who
07:20
disagree on these issues evangelicals
07:23
have legitimate differences over these
07:25
issues as well in 2005 when Time
07:28
magazine announced the 25 most
07:31
influential evangelicals in America the
07:34
list included both David Barton and Mark
07:37
null bar in the founder of an
07:40
organization called wall builders is one
07:43
of the country’s foremost proponents of
07:45
the theory that America is a Christian
07:47
nation Knohl who of course needs no
07:49
introduction here at Wheaton has spent a
07:51
good portion of his career attempting to
07:53
debunk both directly and indirectly the
07:57
notion that America is a Christian
07:58
nation Barton has suggested that Knoll
08:01
and scholars like him rely too much on
08:03
the work of other historians and not
08:05
enough on primary documents knoll has
08:08
offered careful and nuanced arguments to
08:10
refute the Christian nationalists but as
08:13
a scholar his work lacks the immense
08:15
popularity among ordinary evangelicals
08:17
that Bart and enjoys when I speak on
08:21
this subject and I do a lot of speaking
08:24
as a we have this thing in Pennsylvania
08:26
called Pennsylvania Commonwealth
08:27
speakers in which I travel around the
08:29
state of Pennsylvania speaking to
08:30
libraries and social civic groups and so
08:33
forth on this usually when I when I
08:35
speak on this subject and usually the
08:37
title is something like was America
08:39
founded as a Christian nation so it’s
08:40
sort of provocative and people will show
08:42
up I found that most people come to my
08:45
lecture with their minds already made up
08:47
basically looking for me to provide
08:49
historical evidence to confirm their
08:51
position
08:53
what is a historian to do if there is
08:57
one thing that historian should not do I
08:59
would argue it is to jump into the
09:02
political debate in some ways the
09:04
question in the title of my current book
09:06
was America found that as a Christian
09:08
nation is a bad historical question this
09:13
was a debate between my publisher and
09:15
maybe saying I don’t want the book to be
09:16
titled that way and the publisher of
09:17
course well you know we’ll sell more
09:18
books if you give this sort of
09:20
provocative title it’s a question that
09:22
does not conform to easy yes and no
09:24
answers that most of most to ask the
09:27
question are looking for my golden is
09:30
this lecture is not to lay out a case
09:32
for or against the Christian founding i
09:34
hope you will buy my book there’s my
09:37
pitch my only pitch to see how I handle
09:40
the details such as the way Americans
09:42
have always understood themselves to be
09:44
part of a Christian nation whether or
09:45
not they they’re interpreting the
09:47
founders correctly or not I argue that
09:49
the Christians in America have always
09:52
Americans generally all the way up until
09:54
the sort of 1950s have always understood
09:56
themselves to be part of a Christian
09:58
nation or you can find stuff about the
10:01
relationship of evangelicalism to the
10:03
coming of the revolution the Declaration
10:05
of Independence the Constitution the
10:07
state governments or the religious
10:09
beliefs of the founders which I cover in
10:10
detail but my intention tonight is to
10:13
reflect on the responsibility of the
10:15
historian using the Christian America
10:17
controversy and a few others as a case
10:21
study at the horror of the debate wet
10:24
over whether the United States was
10:26
founded as a Christian nation is the
10:28
relationship between history and
10:30
American life it is thus important to
10:33
think about the nature of the discipline
10:35
of history and identify the difference
10:37
between good history and bad history
10:40
what is the purpose of studying history
10:43
what do historians do does everyone who
10:47
conducts a serious study of the past
10:49
qualify as a historian in my opinion
10:53
writes Pulitzer prize-winning historian
10:55
Gordon would not everyone who writes
10:59
about the past is a historian
11:01
sociologists anthropologists political
11:03
scientists and economists frequently
11:06
work in the past with
11:07
really thinking historically what this
11:10
would mean by this is there a difference
11:12
between the past and history to terms we
11:15
often assume are synonymous it is also
11:20
important to remember just what we do
11:22
when we say that we are historian John
11:24
Tasha historiography writes all the
11:27
resources of scholarship and all the
11:29
historians powers of imagination must be
11:32
harnessed to the task of bringing the
11:33
past back to life or resurrecting it
11:37
historians make the dead live they bring
11:41
the past to an audience in the present
11:43
if we think about the vocation of the
11:45
historian this way then perhaps we may
11:48
distinguish between history and the past
11:51
the past is the past a record of events
11:54
that occurred in bygone eras but history
11:57
is a discipline the art of
11:59
reconstructing the past most human
12:02
beings tend to be rather present minded
12:04
when it comes to confronting the past
12:06
the discipline of history was never
12:08
meant to function as a means of getting
12:10
one’s political point across or
12:13
convincing people to join a cause as it
12:16
is often used by Christian nationalists
12:18
and their opponents yet Americans both
12:22
on the left and the right used the past
12:24
for these purposes all the time such an
12:27
approach to the past can easily
12:29
degenerate into a form of propaganda or
12:32
as the historian Bernard Bailyn
12:33
described it indoctrination by
12:36
historical example when we engage in the
12:40
careful reconstruction of the past we
12:41
will find that it is often strange when
12:44
compared to our present-day
12:45
sensibilities there were some people in
12:48
the past that burned witches others
12:51
engaged in human sacrifice as historian
12:54
David Lowenthal echoing the late LP
12:56
Hartley reminds us the past is a foreign
12:59
country they do things differently there
13:02
it is the strangeness of the past that
13:06
turns many off to its study what if the
13:09
past does not inspire me what if we are
13:11
required to investigate an error or a
13:13
movement that at first glance does not
13:15
seem to teach us anything about
13:16
ourselves or our society how does
13:21
knowledge of the medieval feudal system
13:22
help us live better lives well our lives
13:25
be enriched by a thorough knowledge of
13:27
the causes of World War one perhaps but
13:31
it is easy to ignore miss the parts of
13:33
the past that we do not like yet all
13:36
historians must come to grips with this
13:38
with its utter strangeness present
13:41
mindedness makes for bad history as
13:43
noted historian of the American West
13:45
Richard white writes any good history
13:48
begins in strangeness the past should
13:51
not be comfortable the past should not
13:53
be a familiar echo of the present for if
13:55
it is familiar why revisited the past
13:59
should be so strange that you wonder how
14:02
you and people you know in love could
14:04
come from such a time or for you you’re
14:07
a pianist out there listen to the words
14:09
of Carlo Ginsberg the historians task is
14:12
just the opposite of what most of us
14:14
were taught to believe he must destroy
14:17
our sense of proximity to the patent to
14:19
the people of the past because they come
14:21
from society is very different from our
14:23
own the more we discover about these
14:25
people’s mental universes the more we
14:28
should be shocked by the cultural
14:29
distance that separates us from them
14:33
Gordon would have said if someone wants
14:35
to use the study of the past to change
14:37
the world he or she should forgo a
14:39
career as a historian and run for office
14:43
while it is certainly a worthwhile
14:45
exercise to use the past to critique a
14:47
particular dimension of contemporary
14:49
society I would argue that historians by
14:52
vocation are not primarily cultural
14:55
critics nor are they in the business of
14:58
using the past to promote a particular
15:00
political or cultural agenda the task of
15:04
the historian is to pursue truth where
15:07
it may wherever it may lead he or she
15:09
works with original or primary documents
15:11
to reconstruct the past and all its
15:13
complexity and fullness while the
15:15
historian might choose the subject she
15:17
will study based upon current events or
15:19
personal interest and I’d be lying to
15:22
say I picked the subject of my book you
15:24
know you know that it wasn’t driven by
15:26
personal interest or current events the
15:30
story must always with the evidence
15:31
speak even if that evidence leads her
15:33
toward a conclusion
15:34
may not be useful would notes the
15:37
present should not be the criterion for
15:39
what we find in the past now let’s move
15:42
on to an overview of how Christians
15:45
study the past or have studied the past
15:48
over the years Christians have proposed
15:50
several ways of thinking about the
15:51
relationship between their faith and the
15:54
study of history some Christians may
15:56
study the past as a means of explaining
15:58
the Providence of God for these students
16:01
of the past the purpose of history is to
16:03
discern the will of God through the ages
16:05
in this view history becomes theology
16:08
its purpose is to communicate God’s
16:11
designs not unlike some of the
16:13
historians of colonial New England who
16:16
wrote history for the purpose of
16:17
glorifying God and revealing his
16:20
handiwork for example early histories of
16:23
America such as William Bradford’s of
16:25
Plymouth Plantation written around 1650
16:28
or cotton Mathers magn Ali Kristi
16:31
Americana 1702 were written to explain
16:35
God’s providential ordering of the past
16:38
these older works were designed to bring
16:40
glory to the Creator for bestowing his
16:42
blessings on America and particularly
16:45
New England Bradford and matha wrote
16:48
with the sense of certainty about God
16:49
superintending hand they believed that
16:52
it was possible to understand God’s will
16:54
and trace it over time the manner of
16:57
doing history with this manner rather of
16:59
doing history was common in America
17:00
until the late 19th century and still
17:03
has its adherence today historians
17:06
however even Christian historians should
17:08
be cautious about using Providence as a
17:10
means of explaining historical events
17:12
the will of God in the past often
17:15
remains a mystery as theologian Charles
17:18
Matthews writing about st. Augustine’s
17:20
view of Providence notes the lesson of
17:23
Providence is not that history can be
17:25
finally solved like a cryptogram but
17:28
that it must be endured inhabited as a
17:31
mystery which we cannot fully understand
17:33
from the inside but which we cannot
17:36
escape of our own powers the primary
17:39
task of the historian is to describe the
17:41
way that human beings created by God in
17:44
His image have endured and inhabit
17:48
the mysteries of life history is more
17:51
about the study of human beings than it
17:54
is about the study of God as the noted
17:57
historiography RG collingwood put it the
18:00
work of Providence in history is
18:02
recognized but recognized in such a way
18:04
with Lee which leaves nothing for man to
18:06
do one result 11 result of this is that
18:10
historians fell into the error of
18:12
thinking that they could forecast the
18:14
future another result is that in their
18:17
anxiety to detect the general plan of
18:19
history and their belief that this plan
18:22
was God’s and not man’s they tended to
18:24
look for the essence of history outside
18:26
of history itself by looking away from
18:29
man’s actions in order to detect the
18:31
plan of God and consequently the actual
18:33
detail of human actions became for them
18:35
relatively unimportant and they
18:37
neglected the prime duty of the
18:39
historian a willingness to bestow
18:42
infinite pains on discovering what
18:44
actually happened God’s plan for the
18:47
ages is not something that historians or
18:49
anyone else for that matter can decipher
18:50
with any degree of certainty as
18:52
Christians we believe that God has
18:54
spoken the world into creation but his
18:57
creation is ongoing as a result we must
19:00
be patient and wait in expected hope for
19:03
its full meaning hope reveals our
19:06
faithful knowledge is temporal dimension
19:09
it infuses our knowing with the sort of
19:11
not yet with the resistance to the
19:13
delusion that we know anything
19:15
completely even the most mundane things
19:18
this is true because we are sinners of
19:21
course but it is also true because
19:23
nothing yet bears the full weight of its
19:25
eschatological glory as first
19:28
Corinthians 13 12 reminds us for now we
19:32
see in a mirror dimly but then face to
19:35
face now in part but then I shall know
19:37
fully just as I have always been fully
19:40
known or just as I also haven’t fully
19:42
known Christian historians would do
19:44
better to approach their task with a
19:45
sense of God’s transcendent mystery a
19:48
healthy dose of humility and I hope that
19:50
one day soon but not now we will all
19:54
understand the Almighty’s plans for the
19:56
nation’s when we arrive at the judgment
19:58
of God Agustin wrote the time of which
20:01
in a special
20:02
sense is called the day of judgement it
20:04
will then become apparent that God’s
20:06
judgments are entirely just now not all
20:10
Christian historians think that
20:11
Providence is the best way of
20:12
interpreting the past some believe that
20:15
the past must be critiqued from the
20:17
perspective of Christian orthodoxy a
20:19
body of biblical teaching and church
20:21
tradition that always has always guided
20:23
Christians and judging right from wrong
20:25
this approach to history offers ethical
20:28
judgments on characters from the past
20:30
the ideas they defended and the
20:32
movements to which they affiliated
20:33
indeed the past provides us with moral
20:36
lessons making the historians sometimes
20:39
overtly but most times subtly although
20:42
no less powerfully a critic by nature
20:45
historian robert gleason has argued that
20:47
historians have a three-fold task to
20:50
explain what happened to ask why it
20:52
happened and to ask if what happened was
20:54
good those who embrace this vision of
20:58
history find it imperative to add an
21:00
additional moral dimension to their
21:02
study of the past one that is informed
21:04
by their Christian convictions the
21:07
validity of Gleason’s approach depends a
21:09
lot on how the place of moral criticism
21:11
is employed there is after all a
21:13
difference between a historian and a
21:16
moral philosopher Gleason’s first two
21:18
steps are certainly well within the role
21:20
of the historian but to ask if what
21:23
happened in the past was good leads to a
21:26
blurring of the disciplinary boundaries
21:28
between history and ethics and if we are
21:30
not careful can replace sound historical
21:34
thinking with moral criticism allow me
21:37
to illustrate this point from a typical
21:39
United States history survey course at
21:41
messiah college at an appropriate point
21:44
in the semester i give students copies
21:45
of documents written by 19th century
21:47
southerners theologians and ministers
21:50
mostly who defended the institution of
21:52
slavery these writings are completely
21:54
foreign to my students many of them are
21:57
appalled by the way that these
21:58
southerners use the Bible to justify
22:00
their peculiar institution they want to
22:03
immediately critique the arguments of
22:05
these men from the perspective of their
22:06
own moral and ethical commitments many
22:08
of them will offer insights from their
22:10
Bible or theology classes as arguments
22:13
for why these slaveholders misunderstood
22:15
the teachings of Scripture despite the
22:18
fact that the New Testament never
22:19
directly condemned slavery thinking
22:22
about the ethical dimensions of 19th
22:24
century slaveholding can be an
22:26
intellectually stimulating and a morally
22:29
helpful exercise but it should not be
22:31
the primary focus of a history classroom
22:34
historians are primarily after
22:37
understanding they must avoid what
22:39
historian Jim Legrand and my colleague
22:41
at Messiah has described as preaching
22:43
through history before condemning these
22:46
pro-slavery advocates history students
22:49
need to know why someone from the 19th
22:52
century would see the need to make such
22:54
a defense of slavery what was the
22:56
context in which these documents were
22:57
written who is the intended audience
22:59
what are the main issues at stake in the
23:02
author’s arguments it is important that
23:04
students enter into the world of a slave
23:06
holder and make an effort to empathize
23:08
with them no matter how repulsed they
23:11
are by his words in the end engaging the
23:14
past in this way could eventually result
23:16
in a much more nuanced and rich critique
23:20
of pro-slavery views finally Christians
23:25
have approached the study of the past of
23:26
the doctrine of creation and the belief
23:28
in the incarnation of Jesus Christ a
23:30
belief in a god who creates implies that
23:33
there is inherent value in studying the
23:35
works of his creation including the
23:37
history of interactions among human
23:39
beings who have inhabited the creative
23:41
world created world through time an
23:44
incarnation Allah proach to history
23:46
affirms that God revealed himself most
23:48
completely in the material world John 1
23:51
it suggests that the material world is
23:53
important because it is the locus in
23:55
which the word became flesh the stuff of
23:58
earth thus merits scholarly and
24:00
intellectual consideration in all its
24:02
realms belief in Christ and His
24:04
redemptive work on our behalf requires
24:06
obedience and submission to God’s
24:08
commands in every aspect of our lives to
24:12
confess the gospel naturally results in
24:14
the acknowledgments of God’s sovereignty
24:16
over all creation and all fields of
24:19
inquiry now it is hard to argue with
24:21
this Christian approach to thinking
24:23
about history the Incarnation is the
24:25
theological idea that must drive every
24:27
Christians understanding of the past
24:29
it offers a Christian reason for paying
24:31
attention to all the past whether it is
24:34
relevant or not well while such a method
24:36
offers a much-needed philosophical and
24:38
theological justification or starting
24:41
point for why the study of the past is
24:43
important it does not offer much in
24:45
terms of how Christian faith might apply
24:47
to the actual doing of history what does
24:51
such an incarnation Allah proach to the
24:52
study of the past look like for example
24:54
in a middle school classroom should
24:57
Christians acknowledge or simply assume
24:58
their Christian presuppositions about
25:00
the past and once acknowledged or assume
25:02
go ahead and study the past just like
25:04
everyone else creation and the
25:06
Incarnation or theological starting
25:08
points that all Christians should affirm
25:10
but they do not help us very much in
25:12
actual practice now I want to offer
25:16
Christians a slightly different approach
25:18
to thinking about the past it is an
25:21
approach that avoids the danger of
25:23
present mindedness the certainty of
25:25
providential ism and the temptation to
25:28
trade history for moral criticism while
25:31
it is grounded in the idea that all of
25:32
the past is important because is the
25:34
because it is the ongoing work of God’s
25:36
creation it offers a more practical
25:38
benefit for Christians in studying the
25:40
past and at the same time intersects
25:43
with some of the best and most recent
25:44
scholarship of historical thinking my
25:47
argument is this the study of history
25:50
can help us mature spiritually now what
25:53
do I mean by that scholars of historical
26:01
thinking and I’m particularly thinking
26:03
here about Sam Weinberg and is masterful
26:06
historical thinking and other unnatural
26:08
acts get this book if you’re a history
26:10
major read this book it is a phenomenal
26:13
introduction to historical thinking
26:16
Weinberg has argued convincingly that it
26:19
is the very strangeness of the past that
26:21
has the best potential to change our
26:23
lives in positive ways those who are
26:26
willing to acknowledge the past is a
26:27
foreign country a place where they do
26:29
things differently than we do in the
26:31
present set off on a journey of personal
26:34
transformation Weinberg rights it is
26:37
this past one that initially initially
26:40
leaves us befuddled or worse just
26:43
playing board that we need most if we
26:46
are to achieve the understanding that
26:47
each of us is more than the handful of
26:49
labels described to us at birth and
26:52
encounter with the past and all its
26:54
fullness void as much as possible if
26:57
present minded agendas can cultivate
26:59
virtue in our lives such an encounter
27:02
teaches as empathy humility selflessness
27:05
and hospitality by studying history we
27:09
learn to listen to voices that differ
27:11
from our own we lay aside our moral
27:14
condemnation about a person idea or
27:16
event from the past in order to
27:18
understand it this is the essence of
27:21
intellectual hospitality the act of
27:23
interpreting a primary source with
27:25
students becomes the equivalent of
27:27
inviting a person from the past into our
27:30
classrooms and this applies to a college
27:32
professor a high school teacher anyone
27:34
who teaches the pass even someone
27:36
working at a historical society or
27:37
museum educator by taking the time to
27:40
listen to people from a foreign country
27:42
we rid ourselves of the selfish quest to
27:45
make the past serve our needs the study
27:47
of the past reminds us that we are not
27:49
autonomous individuals but part of a
27:53
human story that is larger than
27:55
ourselves Weinberg sums it up well and
27:58
probably one of my favorite quotes about
28:00
the way in which historians do their
28:02
work Weinberg rights for the narcissist
28:05
sees the world both past and present in
28:08
his own image mature historical
28:12
understanding teaches us to do the
28:13
opposite to go beyond the fleeting
28:16
moment in human history into which we
28:18
have been born to go beyond our brief
28:21
life to go beyond our own image history
28:24
educates literally to lead outward in
28:28
the Latin in the deepest sense of the
28:31
subjects in the secular curriculum it is
28:34
the best at teaching those virtues once
28:36
reserved for theology humility in the
28:39
face of our limited ability to know and
28:41
awe in the face of the expanse of
28:44
history are we willing to allow history
28:48
to educate us to lead us outward
28:53
Weinberg’s reference to theology is
28:55
worth further exploration
28:57
again in his book the theology of public
29:00
life Charles Matthews at the illusion at
29:02
the University of Virginia argues that
29:04
Christians today are afflicted by the
29:06
sin of escapism the desire to flee from
29:09
God and each other God wants us to turn
29:12
toward him but he also wants us to turn
29:14
toward each other in the process of
29:17
loving our neighbor for Matthews such a
29:19
practice by the way goes to the heart of
29:21
civic life we grow as Christians through
29:24
the virtues cultivation through
29:26
engagement with public life Matthews
29:28
writes the souls of Christians may be
29:30
purified in and through their public
29:33
engagements now what have we viewed the
29:36
study of the past as a form of public
29:38
engagement even if the person we engage
29:42
is dead we can still enter into a
29:44
conversation with the sources that he or
29:47
she has left behind in a passage
29:50
strikingly familiar to Weinberg’s
29:52
thoughts on the discipline of history
29:53
Matthews argues that when we encounter
29:56
people in all their strangeness we quote
29:58
find ourselves decentered we find that
30:01
we are no longer the main object of our
30:03
purposes but participate in something
30:05
not primarily our own songs as if
30:08
Weinberg read Matthews or vice versa
30:10
hear this confession then is itself a
30:13
turning to the other not in the interest
30:15
of mutual narcissism which makes the
30:17
other only a consolation prize for
30:20
having to for having to be already
30:21
ourselves but as an openness to
30:24
transforming and being transformed by
30:26
the other if we take the imago Dei
30:29
seriously the notion that all human
30:31
beings are created in the image of God
30:32
then we should also take seriously the
30:35
idea that those who lived in the past
30:36
were also created in God’s image the
30:39
very act of studying humanity past or
30:42
present can be what Matthews calls quote
30:45
an exploration into God a mode inquiring
30:49
God an account unquote and encounter
30:52
with the past that’s becomes an act I
30:54
would argue of spiritual devotion this
30:57
kind of encounter quote from Matthews
31:00
again provides more than enough
31:01
opportunities for humility and penance
31:03
recognition of one sin in the sins of
31:06
others and a deepening appreciation of
31:08
the terrible all
31:09
fullness of God’s providential governing
31:12
of the world indeed involvement in
31:15
public life today may itself
31:16
increasingly need some such a set
31:18
ascetical discipline in other words and
31:23
it’s unquote in other words history is
31:25
not only a discipline in the sense that
31:27
philosophy or literary criticism or
31:29
sociology or disciplines it is also a
31:31
discipline in the sense that it requires
31:33
patterns of behavior such as the denial
31:36
of the self that are necessary in order
31:38
to meet the other in a hospitable way
31:41
doing history is not unlike the kind of
31:44
disciplines we employ in our spiritual
31:46
lives disciplines that take the focus
31:48
off of us and put it on God or others if
31:50
this is true then prayer a reliance on
31:54
the Holy Spirit’s power and other
31:57
spiritual practices should provide help
31:59
in the pursuit of the kind of
32:00
self-denial hospitality charity and
32:03
humility needed to engage the past in
32:05
this way and allow ourselves to be open
32:07
to the possibility of it transforming us
32:09
how often do we pray over our scholarly
32:13
or academic historical work and i don’t
32:16
mean prayer for helping for help in
32:18
getting the paper done on time or a
32:20
prayer that we keep our sanity amid the
32:22
heavy workload i mean a prayer that the
32:25
lord would use our encounter with the
32:27
past to transform us to help us live
32:30
with the illusion Scott McKnight calls
32:31
the jesus creed loving God and loving
32:33
others like any type of public
32:36
engagement encounter with the strangest
32:38
of the past inevitably leads to
32:40
contemplation of the mysteries of
32:42
Providence the sovereignty of god and
32:44
the cultivation of that holy terror that
32:47
is integral to true piety it forces us
32:50
to love others even a 19th century slave
32:53
holder when they have first glance
32:55
seemed to be unlovable failure to
32:58
respect the people in the past is
32:59
ultimately a failure of love it is a
33:03
failure to recognize the common bond
33:05
that we share with humanity it is a
33:07
failure to welcome the stranger moreover
33:10
when we uncover symbol but sinful
33:12
behavior in the past it should cause us
33:14
to examine our own imperfect and flawed
33:16
lives this kind of engagement as
33:19
Matthew’s puts it quote brings us
33:22
repeatedly against the stub
33:23
and bear their nests of the people we
33:25
meet in public life it teaches us again
33:28
and again the terrible lesson that there
33:30
are other people other ideals other
33:32
points of view that we can see and
33:34
appreciate even if we cannot inhabit
33:36
them and remain ourselves the discipline
33:40
of history requires us to apply apply
33:42
james 119 to our lives we must be quick
33:46
to hear slow to speak and slow to become
33:48
angry this does not mean that we have to
33:51
agree with every idea we encounter in
33:53
the past sometimes we cannot have to use
33:55
Matthews words inhabit an idea and still
33:58
remain ourselves but education to be led
34:02
outward does require a degree of risk
34:06
without taking a risk without being open
34:09
to transformation liberal education
34:11
cannot happen self-denial rights
34:15
historian mark Swain is a willingness to
34:18
surrender ourselves for the sake of a
34:19
better opinion wisdom is the discernment
34:24
of when it is reasonable to do so a
Christian who studies the past must be
prudent she must be slow to speak and
quick to listen to the people she meets
in the past and she must pray for wisdom
in order to illustrate what this might
look like in a classroom again I will
return to the example about teaching
text written by 19th century pro-slavery
intellectuals just like everyone else in
my class kevin was appalled that the
arguments contained in these documents
but by entering into a conversation with
their authors and being open to letting
these writers change him he became a
better Christian Kevin learned that
plantation owners often argued that
slavery was justified because
slaveholders treated their labor force
slaves better than the burgeoning
capitalists of the north treated their
immigrant laboring classes slaves were
clothed fed Christianized and usually
worked 10 hours a day northern
industrial laborers living in an age
before the usual benefits afforded the
workers today work 16-hour days were
paid so poorly that they could not feed
themselves or their families and
generally live lives that were much
worse than those of southern slaves how
dare the northern abolitionists and
capitalist claim the moral high ground
how dare they accuse slaveholders of
immorality while all the while turning a
blind
to the plight of the working class
slaves in their midst the South’s
anti-capitalist feudalism offered as
historians Elisabeth Fox gen of AC and
Eugene Jenna Vaisey have shown one of
the most powerful critiques of
industrialization in 19th century
America kevin was convinced that the
slaveholders criticism of northern
industry did not take them off the moral
hook slavery was still a reprehensible
and sinful practice nor was Kevin sure
that this defense of slavery was valid
the northern workers may have had it
rough perhaps even rougher than the
slaves but what at least they were free
kevin did however learn to be cautious
about condemning others before hearing
their side of the story his response to
these writers was not a knee-jerk moral
criticism but a thoughtful engagement
with historical texts that taught him a
valuable lesson about removing the log
from your own eye before taking the
speck out of the eye of another Kevin
listen to the slaveholders he understood
them he empathized with them he saw them
as fellow human beings he realized that
some of their flaws were also present in
his own life and his relationships with
others and in the process he was in a
small way changed are not these the
kinds of transformative encounters that
we as Christians all want to experience
36:53
it seems likely that dozens and dozens
36:56
of such encounters would not only
36:57
produce a liberally educated person but
36:59
a person of Christian character as well
37:01
I wish I could say that Kevin is
37:04
representative of the way most students
37:06
approach historical texts and I think
37:08
that historians in the room might agree
37:09
with me it is not indeed we have much
37:13
work to do but his case reveals that
37:16
real transformation is possible when we
37:18
are exposed to opinions that we
37:20
naturally find uncomfortable student to
37:22
the past do not have to agree with
37:24
slaveholders to learn something from
37:25
them even if it only reminds them that
37:27
we like the authors of these texts are
37:30
flawed imperfect creatures in need of
37:32
redemption this is what history can do
37:35
and this is why Christians must study it
37:37
we need to practice history not because
37:40
it can win us political points in the
37:42
culture wars or help us push our social
37:44
and cultural agendas forward but because
37:46
it has the amazing potential to
37:48
transform our lives
37:50
fortunately those Christians who believe
37:52
that the United States was founded as a
37:54
Christian nation have no particular
37:56
interest in pursuing the discipline of
37:57
history moreover popular historians on
38:01
the left and I’ll name names here I
38:03
mentioned David Barton I mean people
38:05
like Howard Zinn for example fall victim
38:07
to the same historical sins so I ask
38:11
again what is a historian to do now I’m
38:15
working on an answer to this question as
38:17
part of my next project but in the
38:18
meantime I think we need to get out of
38:20
the ivory tower and be in the business
38:21
of teaching the public how to think
38:23
historically historians as historians
38:27
need to bring the benefits of this kind
38:29
of historical thinking to churches civic
38:31
organizations community centers and
38:33
schools perhaps we should actively seek
38:36
to share our wisdom and insight at the
38:37
local Rotary Club meeting or in a Sunday
38:40
School class or in our daughter’s
38:42
fourth-grade classroom perhaps these
38:44
kinds of engagements or perhaps a
38:46
well-placed op-ed or an article in our
38:48
denominational magazine should count
38:51
towards tenure and promotion at places
38:53
like weaken or Messiah moreover we need
38:57
to train students that a career in the
38:59
ivory tower may not be the young
39:01
historians highest calling perhaps a
39:04
history major might have a greater
39:05
impact working at a local Historical
39:07
Society teaching students or bringing
39:10
the virtues of historical thinking to
39:12
the places where they choose to live
39:13
work and have their being even if they
39:16
do not find employment in a history
39:18
related field if done well the study of
39:22
history might just help contribute to a
39:23
ceasefire in our so-called culture wars
39:26
while history will never replace the
39:28
transforming power of the gospel to
39:31
change lives and influence our culture
39:33
it has the potential to contribute to a
39:35
moral society rooted in civility and to
39:38
bring an end to the shouting matches
39:40
whether it is debate over Christian
39:42
America or any hot button issue that
39:45
faces our society today thank you
39:54
you have time for questions questions
39:57
comments tomatoes whatever yeah
40:08
tell me we’re going to
40:14
nation’s history the people’s history
40:16
because yesterday that well i think i
40:21
think you know i’ll be Bobby blunt here
40:23
i think howard zinn’s a people’s history
40:24
the United States is another example of
40:26
what bailon calls indoctrination by
40:28
historical example you can believe
40:31
politically ins ins positions but I
40:34
don’t think it’s good history I mean the
40:35
best review i’ve actually read if howard
40:36
zinn’s people’s history comes from a
40:38
story of sort of left-wing historian of
40:41
populism who teaches at georgetown they
40:44
Michael Kaizen who wrote a scathing I
40:46
mean this is a person I think it’s the
40:47
editor of dissent magazine and this is a
40:50
person who is a you know clearly on the
40:52
left and probably shares most of Zins
40:54
politics and if you want to email me
40:57
I’ll send you the link i think you can
40:58
still find it online but he he you know
41:01
tears into this book saying it’s not i
41:03
mean it’s a pretty contentious pretty
41:05
you know maybe even nasty review saying
41:10
you know what sins doing it’s actually
41:12
hurting the left and hurting the sort of
41:14
you know the sort of intellectual
41:17
strength of the left the intellectual
41:19
robust nature of the left’s argument
41:22
because he’s pretty much just using the
41:24
past to sort of promote some kind of
41:25
agenda without looking at it in sort of
41:27
all it’s you know its complexity and
41:29
fullness so i would i would say people
41:31
like howard zinn are sort of a mirror
41:33
now again xin is not completely invested
41:35
in this christian america well actually
41:37
he’s not alive anymore but you know he’s
41:41
a mirror image and I think what David
41:42
Barton and others on the right are doing
41:45
you know it’s clearly history to promote
41:48
something in the present and you know
41:50
call it cherry-picking you know call it
41:52
whatever you want but it’s really one
41:54
side of the story nevertheless it’s a
41:56
great book it’s a great read you know
41:58
after I’ve actually enjoyed reading it i
42:00
think i read it multiple times but i’m
42:02
not sure it’s the best you know i don’t
42:03
think i’m not sure i would call good
42:04
history yeah yeah marcos once asked if
42:09
providential history and he said that he
42:13
hadn’t seen it done well ya see Matt go
42:16
up to my work could be done yeah and so
42:18
I was wondering what do you think of
42:21
that quote and where are your thoughts
42:23
on doing providential is I I I wish I
42:27
wish mark went on on that quote and said
42:29
you know I haven’t seen it done but this
42:32
is what it would look like I’m not
42:34
convinced at all that Providence is
42:36
helpful whatsoever to the historians
42:38
vocation now you know some collectors
42:41
that may mean I’m a bad Christian I
42:42
guess right but but I it’s just not you
42:45
know it’s just not a useful category for
42:47
for sort of historical analysis I mean
42:50
you know the providential historians the
42:54
way it’s often though it’s often used
42:55
you know by people on the Christian
42:58
national it’s on the right for example
42:59
you know God intervened here you know
43:01
the fog came up in August 1776 and and
43:04
the the content at de l’armée made it
43:06
across and escaped you know I I tend to
43:09
you know I grew up Catholic so maybe my
43:11
has a sense of appealing the mystery you
43:14
know that’s my sort of default position
43:15
rather than certainty but uh you know I
43:20
would say if you believe God is
43:21
sovereign right over all human history
43:23
you know to suggest well God intervened
43:25
here on October thirty-first 1517 you
43:29
know in the Protestant Reformation you
43:31
know it implies that God is interjecting
43:33
here but you know he hasn’t been
43:35
sovereign all through the other periods
43:36
of time you know this is where he
43:38
inserted himself for the cause of
43:39
Protestantism or the cause of America or
43:43
you know something to that effect so I
43:45
you know we use Providence in our own
43:49
spiritual lives all the time you know we
43:51
look back on our lives and we often say
43:53
you know I see the Lord led me there I
43:55
see the Lord took me down this path and
43:58
I’m wrestling with that myself you know
44:00
because I do that too i see well the
44:01
Lord directed me to this college I came
44:03
to wheaton and it changed everything you
44:05
know yeah one of the things I’m thinking
44:09
about in this new project it’s
44:10
tentatively called up it’s coming out
44:12
hopefully in 2012 with Brazos called the
44:15
power to transform a Christian
44:16
reflection on the past it’s a working
44:18
title I haven’t written a chapter on
44:21
Providence yeah
44:22
and I’m so I’ll plead ignorance at this
44:26
point but I really want to know what
44:28
that might look like someday maybe I’ll
44:30
ask mark what did what he means by that
44:32
but I’m yeah yeah
44:41
or hoping for transformation yeah how is
44:45
looking for transformation different
44:48
looking for moral lessons do they have
44:51
do they share kind of
44:54
well I think I think I think the
44:59
difference is you know when you’re using
45:01
the past to look for moral lessons you
45:04
know you know especially when it comes
45:06
to individuals right you know I want to
45:08
model myself after you know Jonathan
45:11
Edwards is my hero you know kind of
45:13
thing and I want to I want to be like
45:15
Jonathan Edwards and use him as a model
45:17
in an example I think what I’m trying to
45:22
suggest is that the transformation and
45:24
i’m debating this term too because i’m
45:27
actually my approach is sort of moving
45:29
away from the more sort of
45:30
epistemological discussions of this
45:32
right you know can there be christian
45:34
history you know these kinds of things
45:35
has really dominated a generation of
45:37
historians before me I’m much more
45:39
interested in you know how everybody who
45:44
writes about Christian history seem to
45:46
be American religious historians you
45:47
know there’s hardly is there’s not many
45:49
of us out there who are actually
45:50
reflecting on this question that don’t
45:52
study American religious history right
45:54
and and that’s where i’m coming from i’m
45:56
an early american historian by training
45:57
now I dabble in religion obviously this
46:00
book is all about religion but but you
46:02
know I teach in a history department I
46:04
teach us survey courses and civil war
46:06
and colonial America these kinds of
46:08
things I teach about economic life I
46:10
teach about markets I teach you about
46:12
you know these kinds of things you know
46:14
happen how does then approaching
46:17
something that seems completely
46:18
irrelevant or maybe doesn’t serve the
46:20
church in some way you know how can how
46:23
can my students engage in a sort of
46:26
world of you know get to know a medieval
46:28
peasant from whatever shards of evidence
46:31
are left behind and in the process
46:33
through that public encounter one is
46:36
transformed you don’t have to
46:38
necessarily say you know I like this guy
46:41
or you know I want to I want to learn a
46:44
moral lesson from him I’m not saying the
46:46
past can’t teach us more or lessons but
46:48
that’s not the sort of crux of the
46:49
argument I think that I’m making here I
46:51
think just an encounter with the past if
46:56
you know if again this is a lot of this
46:58
has to do with you know it needs to be
46:59
done in the sort of hands of a teacher
47:02
who understands that you know history is
47:05
not just about the facts
47:07
certainly is but there’s also these
47:08
historical thinking skills that that
47:10
comet different historians really offer
47:12
a different way of looking at the world
47:14
than most people that can be
47:16
transformative and again other
47:17
disappoints all four different ways of
47:18
thinking you know about the world so I’m
47:20
somewhat of a you know I’m somewhat of a
47:23
disciplinary guy I guess you know you
47:26
know I’m someone saying you know here’s
47:28
the discipline of history here’s how
47:29
historians work and what didn’t what can
47:33
that do you know to bring spiritual
47:36
growth even in our lives how can we
47:38
worship God or love God or love neighbor
47:40
through the discipline rather than you
47:43
know usually you know Christian colleges
47:45
it’s well we really get our spiritual
47:47
growth in the humanities you know from
47:50
you know the integration of various
47:52
disciplines or through some common core
47:54
curriculum or you know something i’m not
47:56
saying that you know other disciplines
47:58
can’t produce the same thing but but
48:01
what does how does the discipline of
48:04
history itself provide some kind of
48:07
spiritual sustenance or moral reflection
48:11
moral growth or yeah yeah Tracy we’re
48:19
just a wonderful wonderful song Thanks
48:22
I’m not going to take us back to the
48:23
vision for yes used to being the friend
48:26
oh there’s a lot of that in the book
48:30
that goes kind of those kind of events
48:32
well so so this is a Carson you thought
48:34
I feel bad I suspect how is it possible
48:38
if it is possible for
48:42
Christian scholars to enter into
48:45
constructive conversation you know in
48:48
some ways when you when I respond to a
48:50
question like that Tracy I sometimes I
48:52
just think about the kind of utopian
48:54
nature of everything that I’m saying
48:56
right I mean you know someone who’s been
48:58
in the classroom and tried to get
49:00
students to do this you know this is a
49:02
lofty ideal that I’m sort of throwing
49:04
out there that we can even you know
49:06
attempt to sort of pull this off you
49:09
know Kevin the example I gave is you
49:11
know very rare example one of the things
49:15
you know you know this book that I wrote
49:18
you know it’s in some ways picking up
49:21
where passional and marsden search for
49:24
Christian America left off right and i
49:28
think i think what distinguishes the two
49:30
books is number one I think mine is sort
49:33
of one authored work that has a little
49:35
bit more of a coherence than the you
49:37
know the individual essays that are in
49:38
that book but also Knoll hatchet marsden
49:40
were engaging a sort of late 70s early
49:43
80s sort of Francis Schaeffer Jerry
49:45
Falwell you know I’m more sort of
49:47
engaging with the bargains of the world
49:48
and the more contemporary but to get to
49:50
your question I reason I bring up that
49:53
book the search for Christian America is
49:55
you know some that some of these guys
49:58
have devoted themselves deeply to trying
50:00
to bring change in this area and and I
50:05
wrestle with this myself nothing’s
50:08
changed you know the scholars have not
50:12
really made a dent in this sort of
50:16
Christian nationalist culture now
50:19
they’ve probably made a dent among an
50:21
educated class of christian college
50:23
students who read this book in their
50:24
American Revolution class or something
50:26
like that right but they really haven’t
50:28
made a dent at all in fact I would even
50:29
argue since the appearance of these
50:31
books and this is nothing against those
50:32
historians I think since the appearance
50:34
of those books the Christian nationalist
50:36
sentiment for a variety of reasons
50:37
whether it be the Bush administration or
50:39
whatever has become stronger in some
50:42
ways so you know I mean one of the
50:47
things I tried to do with this book is
to to write it you know for a Christian
audience
50:53
I trying to publicize it in sort of
50:57
circles you know I’ve done 25 radio
interview so far for the book about 75%
of them have been on conservative talk
radio I’ve gotten hammered I mean I’ve
gotten you know it’s sometimes it’s been
a little ugly and I’ve just tried to try
to keep civility you know where I don’t
get I’m not allowed to have a word in
edgewise on this issue you know I mean
that’s somebody who said we were arguing
the other day about Thomas Jefferson’s
51:20
religion and I said well certainly
51:22
Jefferson was a nice guy was saying do
51:24
Jefferson was born again and it
51:26
certainly Jeffers certainly Jefferson
wasn’t an Orthodox Christian he rejected
the inspiration of the Bible the Trinity
even the resurrection you know well he
wasn’t an Orthodox Christian but he was
a believer you know how do you how do
you argue with that how do you you know
the beta and then okay and now you know
let’s go to the commercial break Oh
51:42
short of it so so in some ways I’m sort
51:45
of i’m sort of you know caught up in
51:49
these two minutes sound bites that I’m
51:50
sort of railing it I don’t know I
51:53
honestly don’t know how it you know I
51:55
mean now a positive example I taught a
51:58
five-week attend an evangelical free
51:59
church in insane where i live in
52:02
mechanicsburg i taught a five week class
52:06
on this book that was a wonderful
52:08
experience most of the people there had
52:12
read David Barton and that’s it and in a
52:15
face-to-face sort of community of people
52:17
there about 45 50 people who are in the
52:20
class it was a wonderful experience now
52:23
I don’t know if I convinced everyone but
52:25
there was this you know this so you know
52:27
i just got done reading day I James
52:29
Davis and hunters book to change the
52:30
world he talks about this idea of sort
52:33
of faithful presence you know you know
52:35
doing what you can in the places where
52:37
God has placed you whether that be
52:39
westshore evangelical free church you
52:41
know or the mosier’s know that church
52:43
right or or you know the local community
52:47
center or the rotor you know and is that
52:50
going to make a dent who knows but you
52:52
know hunter has some interesting things
52:53
to say they’re about the way a culture
52:54
gets changed now so I wish I could give
52:59
you some kind of definitive answer to
53:00
that but it’s it’s tough you know in
53:03
some ways you’re like a donkey feel like
53:05
a Don Quixote all the time
53:06
tilting at these windmills but you know
53:09
that’s our vocation right you know we
53:11
just keep hammering it we just keep
53:13
hammering at keep going it yeah oh I
53:16
think most if not all the people of
53:19
poach history in this way they are
53:21
speaking of that I’ve heard of our
53:25
historians professors yeah people with
53:27
doctors that kind of says to me that in
53:30
order to get to that point you have to
53:31
study and pursue it like crazy mm-hmm
53:34
and so do you see a possibility for
53:36
people with a history minor one side
53:39
major so like people looking at your
53:41
people that are you majoring in history
53:42
you see it possible for them to get this
53:46
perspective on history without digging
53:49
deeper than the standard textbook
53:55
it does i understand i’m thinking about
53:57
it it’s a good question you know how is
54:01
the casual sort of history buff you know
54:03
you’re probably right it’s obvious going
54:06
to take more reading than just the
54:07
standard textbook having said that you
54:09
know i’m optimistic on this again maybe
54:11
I’m a little too optimistic in this
54:13
whole presentation I’m very much aware
54:14
of that but um I’m optimistic in the
54:17
fact that you know there are you know
54:20
look at the look at the New York Times
54:21
bestseller list people do read history
54:23
you know people people are interested in
54:25
reading David McCullough and you know
54:28
barbara tuchman magus you little older
54:31
now or ron sure no on washington or
54:33
something to that effect but they might
54:38
be the people who might just have to be
54:39
willing to change their minds based upon
54:41
any time you know they might be open to
54:43
changing their minds is we the people
54:45
that read david art and are not really
54:47
you know they’re looking to have their
54:49
physician confirmed and they’re not
54:51
particularly interested in the
54:53
complexity and so forth of the past but
54:55
maybe you know it and I could be my
54:58
argument here could my problem here
54:59
could be sort of just the failure of us
55:01
being a sort of liberally educated
55:02
society to begin with you know that
55:05
could be that could be the issue but
55:09
it’s amazing though to me I mean I mean
55:11
this is this is why I continue to do
55:13
this I mean what’s amazing to me is that
55:14
there are Christians who are picking up
55:17
david barton it by the millions in some
55:19
cases and reading him and you know or
55:22
marshall and manual the light and the
55:24
glory you know you know i’m guessing if
55:27
you go into the typical sort of
55:29
evangelical household and they have one
55:31
history book it’s either going to be
55:32
something by david barton or something
55:33
by the late Peter Marshall and David
55:35
manual you know about providential
55:38
history and that’s so you know could
55:42
there be an alternative literature on
55:45
that that’s but again you need to be
55:46
careful i mean i remember the first time
55:48
i talked about this and again i’m deeply
55:50
committed to sort of going into these
55:52
local places and doing these things I
was in a retirement center and I was you
know I was young I was you know younger
dumber and you know i went in there like
the you know the academic you know i’m
going to show you that america wasn’t a
Christian nation you know in a very
conservative part of Pennsylvaniayou know and I went in both guns blazing
you know and it was awful it was for me
it was him back you know I look back on
embarrassed by that because I was trying
to convince these people that everything
they believed all their life was wrong
and I was ready to slam it down their
throats and you know and fortunately
they invite me back I can’t believe why
they fight me back every twice a year to
speak but but um you know that’s not the
way to do it you know I mean there’s
there’s got to be a sort of sensitivity
and a grace associated with how to pull
this off and most academics aren’t sort
of in tune to you know wired to do that
56:45
but yeah yeah David as we see the danger
56:53
yeah we try to shy we’re possible
56:58
however writing history is it something
57:02
that our readers expect for
57:05
interpretation this is interesting i was
57:08
at a meet I was at a meeting of the
57:09
conference on faith in history out of
57:11
the way was six or eight years ago and
57:13
there was this graduate student I think
57:15
she was so calm Canada he might have
57:17
been from like British Columbia some
57:18
from University British Columbia who was
57:19
critiquing George Marsden’s biography of
57:21
jonathan edwards and was very upset
57:24
because it was such a detached you know
57:27
scholarly biography and this and this
57:30
woman was saying you know hey I’m a
57:32
Christian I wanted to know you know I
57:33
wanted to you know learn I know I wanted
57:36
to grow spiritually from from reading
57:38
you know I wanted to I wanted Marsden to
57:40
say yes and Edwards was right you know
57:42
we should know and actually marcin has
57:44
done that in other sort of essays and
57:46
non-academic places but you know she was
57:49
very disappointed at how d’italie on his
57:51
account of the Great Awakening right you
57:53
know this was this was God moving I want
57:55
to know this i want Marsden to tell me
57:57
this you know and and so so yeah I think
58:01
I think you’re everybody’s looking for
58:03
that in history and I just don’t think
58:08
that’s the historians primary task of
58:10
doing now it’s hard not to I’m not hit
58:12
sitting here arguing for some type of
58:14
objectivity or anything like that but
58:16
but I would argue we try as hard as we
58:18
can knowing limits to sort of tell the
58:20
truth and this is sort of how we believe
58:22
it happened you know someone else could
58:24
be doing the same thing and come up with
58:25
a completely different different
58:26
orientation I’m not suggesting that you
58:28
know but yeah I mean the past the it’s
58:32
two sides of the same coin I mean on one
58:35
hand I’ve stressed strangeness and far
58:37
in this and difference and so forth but
58:40
there is another side of that coin right
58:42
the past does speak to the present it
58:44
does help us to understand the
58:45
complexities of our world today you know
58:48
it should in some ways provide us with
58:50
some kind of guidance in the present and
58:53
so forth but they’re the danger becomes
58:54
just making the past little more than
58:56
sort of a useful you know it’s what’s
58:58
good for us and you know that’s that’s
59:00
the danger when you go that direction
59:01
but certainly that’s an important part
59:03
of it yeah
59:05
so I’m just wondering so with with your
59:09
take on on how history is supposed to be
59:11
on how history supposed to be practice
59:13
are all other disciplines when they
59:15
approach history only practicing a
59:16
pseudo history that it seemed to be what
59:19
I am didn’t it yeah I’ve said this and
59:22
had colleagues at Messire just you know
59:24
you know grow me on this you know but I
59:27
actually had an English major in a class
59:30
where I dementia miss and she was very
59:31
upset that you know literature you know
59:33
engaging with you know and and I would
59:35
agree but I do think I mean history is a
59:39
separate discipline I think for a reason
59:42
you know we do we do sort of approach
59:46
the past with with the purpose of trying
59:49
to understand what happened good or bad
59:51
and all its sort of complexities rather
59:55
than using the past you know
59:57
sociologists might use the pass but the
60:00
whole purpose right or point of a
60:01
sociologist using the past if we’re give
60:03
me for you sociology majors here right
60:05
is to is to provide some necessary sort
60:08
of background for the point that they
60:09
want to make you know in the present or
60:12
how their study of human behavior
60:14
affects the way we live today again the
60:17
hit past the his study of history can do
60:19
that but I don’t think that’s the
60:20
primary purpose and i can’t speak with
60:23
any degree of authority to the way other
60:24
disciplines do it but there is something
60:28
unique pick up weinberg it’s a great
60:30
great did you know Weinberg Tracy when
60:32
you were at UW with you or never got to
60:35
know him yeah are you familiar with the
60:37
book I mean it’s a great yeah it’s a
60:38
great I use it with my teachers i teach
60:41
a i teach a history sort of teaching
60:45
history course and that’s the sort of
60:48
foundational text in that course yeah
61:05
I just question like I’m not sure how
61:09
conceptually your
61:23
if that’s it
61:28
well I think there’s there’s debate
61:31
among historians torian’s about the role
61:35
of empathy I have a colleague in my own
61:37
Department who believes it’s impossible
61:40
to empathize in the pen you know you can
61:41
be example of you know you can’t
61:43
empathize with Hitler there’s the danger
61:44
of you’ll you’ll buy into what he’s
61:46
saying you know something to that effect
61:48
I mean it Hayden white and others have
61:51
other sort of theorists have sort of
61:54
made this same case that empathy is not
61:56
I tend to disagree i mean i think i
61:58
think empathy and understanding is at
62:02
the core of the discipline i mean you
62:03
need to you need to learn to listen to
62:06
someone else to walk in their shoes if
62:08
it means I mean that’s that isn’t the
62:11
method that i’m referring to now you
62:13
could walk in the shoes of someone that
62:15
you Fred’s I said at the talk that you
62:17
might find morally reprehensible I think
62:20
history requires us to do that and to at
62:24
least understand you know what the world
62:27
needs to understand something about the
62:28
world in which they lived and understand
62:31
something about you know how they how
62:33
they engaged with that world so again
62:38
I’m not sure I’m answering your question
62:39
or not but I mean I think I think it’s a
62:42
fundamental difference from from sort of
62:44
looking for the past simply for moral
62:46
lessons you know help us live better in
62:51
the present it’s it’s it’s encountering
62:54
the foreign country you know i i’d like
62:58
to think that empathy you know i’d like
63:00
to think history you know I tell us to
63:01
my students all the time I think by
63:02
studying history you learn to understand
63:04
people that are different from you and
63:06
nice this actually may be a transferable
63:09
skill if you want to use that phrase
63:10
that that might actually help you get
63:12
along better with the person in the
63:14
cubicle next to you that you might not
63:15
like in your first job you know because
63:17
you learn you learn these kinds of
63:19
skills about empathize and how to listen
63:27
all right thank you very much everyone I
63:30
appreciate your attention
Was America Founded as a Christian Nation? “Martin Luther King Jr., Civil Rights, and Christian America”
John Fea’s Virtual Office Hours: Fall 2015 Season – Episode 12
00:08greetings everyone and welcome to the00:10virtual office hours this is episode 1200:12of our fall 2015 season my name is John00:16fee I’m your host here I teach American00:19history at messiah college Abby Blakeney00:21our producer as usual behind the camera00:23she’s back from Thanksgiving break which00:26basically means after today we only have00:28two more office hours to do here in our00:31fall season and as you really recall we00:34are thinking about the place of America00:38as the role of America should say as a00:42Christian nation and how people00:44perceived of America throughout much of00:47American history how people perceive00:49themselves as living in a Christian00:50nation some of you remember that July00:54hopefully in July sometimes in the00:56summer the second edition of my book was00:58America founded as a Christian nation01:00will be out so we will be revisiting01:03we’re here revisiting that things are01:04getting ready for that release now again01:07just a caveat I’ve been making this01:09caveat before when we talked about the01:11idea that Americans believed that they01:14were living in a Christian nation we of01:16course are stating that historically01:19that’s a historical statement it’s not01:21an ethical statement it’s not a moral01:23statement so again if you want to argue01:26with my premise here that America it has01:29always seen itself as living in a01:31Christian nation what you would need to01:33do is you would need to look at the01:35evidence I’ve mounted both in the book01:37and over the course of the last 1101:38episodes and try to suggest that no01:42Americans didn’t think that they were01:44living in a nation that was Christian01:46that would be a historical critique of01:49what I’m doing as opposed to it so the01:50ethical or political critique to say01:52people are wrong for believing that that01:55they lived in a Christian nation this is01:58again the difference between historical02:00thinking and other kinds of thinking my02:04point is historically whether they were02:06right or wrong whether they were02:07following what the founders truly02:09believed America has always understood02:12themselves as living in a Christian02:15nation at least up until the 1970s as02:17we’ll see you next week or maybe the02:18week02:18after today I want to focus on civil02:22rights movement now religion and02:25christianity has been a dominant theme02:28recently in among scholars who were02:30writing about the civil rights movement02:32and the way they’re writing methyl02:34Christianity and forms are had informed02:37the civil rights movement thinking here02:39especially of David Chappelle’s book02:41stone of hope in which he points to an02:44Old Testament prophetic tradition that02:47that really defined the vision of the02:50civil rights movement what I want to02:52focus on quickly with you today’s I want02:54to think about one particular episode in02:56the civil rights movement and that is02:57Martin Luther King Junior’s visit to the02:59city of Birmingham in April set of 196303:03it’s in that year that King come South03:06comes to Alabama to fight against03:09segregation in that city many of you03:11know the story he is eventually put into03:14prison by the public safety commissioner03:17of the city Eugene Bull Connor and while03:20he is in prison he writes what becomes03:22known one of it as one of his most03:24famous pieces of writing the letter from03:26a Birmingham jail now that letter is03:29written from prison obviously and it’s03:31addressed to the white clergy in the03:35city of Birmingham and most of these03:37white clergy that he’s writing to03:39believe that segregation should be03:41handled locally they don’t like king03:43they think he’s an outside agitator03:45who’s coming in and disrupting the good03:48order of the city which is pretty much03:50based upon racial segregation so King03:54writes this letter it’s published it’s03:55put out in the pamphlet form so it gets03:57a kind of national ventually gets a kind03:59of national audience and it’s a04:01fascinating argument because on one hand04:03King is arguing for a a nationalist04:08vision right where there is if there’s04:11injustice anywhere or injustice anywhere04:14i should say is a threat to justice04:15everywhere in other words he’s a04:20challenging localism he’s challenging04:22the idea that local governments local04:26clergy get to decide what is right and04:29what is wrong on this04:30question of race and thus challenging04:32segregation in the process so he appeals04:34to people like Abraham Lincoln and04:36others these great figures of American04:39nationalism to say you know we you know04:42we have to we have to stop the kind of04:44localism that’s going on we have to stop04:47these local prejudices and local ideas04:49especially if they’re challenging what04:51he believes is justice and king secondly04:56sort of defines justice through his04:59vision of what it means to be a05:01Christian so he’s making constant05:03appeals in the in letter from a05:05Birmingham jail about just laws and05:08unjust laws right he’s referencing05:10people like everybody from Agustin to05:13Aquinas to Paul Tillich the modern05:17theologian to he’s going back to the05:19Bible and showing how Shadrach Meshach05:22and Abednego in the Old Testament05:24challenged King Nebuchadnezzar who is05:27putting an unjust law upon them so this05:31idea of civil disobedience is rooted in05:33the Bible it’s rooted in theology at the05:38same time then King is bringing these05:41two ideas together this idea of05:43nationalism vers / localism and this05:47Christian idea of justice to suggest a05:49new vision for the nation which is going05:52to be defined by the idea that we are05:55indeed a judeo-christian country and we05:58must live up to the principal’s not only06:01of our founding fathers but the06:02principles as well of God I think he06:06summarizes this very very well in06:09towards the end of the letter and if I06:12can just find it here I want to make06:15sure i get the wording right where he06:17says he basically says he reminds the06:20birmingham clergy here that he’s06:22standing up for quote what is best in06:25the American dream and for the most06:27sacred values in our judeo-christian06:30heritage thereby bringing our nation06:32back to those great wells of democracywhich were dug deep by the foundingfathers in their formulation of the06:39constant06:39tution and the Declaration of06:41Independence again it’s a powerful06:43convergence here of American values06:46national values and Christian values and06:50King is calling us to a sort of06:52different kind of Christian nation a06:54sort of beloved community in which06:56people are not judged by race or by the06:58color of their skin so clearly here even07:02Martin Luther King a man of the left a07:04man of the civil rights movement makes07:07his case based upon many of these07:11Christian nationalists kind of07:14sentiments that we’ve seen all the way07:16in American history all the way from all07:18the way back in the early 19th century07:20we have two more episodes to go will07:23hopefully get to the end of the07:24twentieth and twenty-first century here07:26in the meantime thanks for watching and07:29we’ll see you next time
What Can You Do With A History Major?
John Fea’s Virtual Office Hours – Episode 12:
John Fea – Was America Founded as a Christian Nation?
2012 Religious Freedom Lecture, Department of Classics, Philosophy, and Religion, University of Mary Washington. John Fea, History Department, Messiah College speaks on the topic “Was America Founded as a Christian Nation?” January 26, 2012.
Discerning History: Authority
00:00it’s been a long time since we were here00:02together and so Gettysburg is our topic00:06as I’m sure you remember and I want to00:09start tonight by seeing if there are00:10things that have occurred to you in this00:13interval that you want to bring up any00:14leftover things from last time or any00:17nagging problems or aggravating00:22statements that you’ve been mulling over00:25since we last met Scott you look like00:27you’re assuming the asking a question00:29position is that correct I do have aquestion I one of the things that I aslike a historian of the Civil War andyou kind of touched on this in the essayyou wrote on here the struggle to likefigure out who to believe and who didnot believe and how you decipher allthese different accounts and I feel likein this book which one are you pointingto Alexander yeah versus some of otherthings we’ve read he has a differentperspective on like whether they shouldhave continued the battle on the firstday and that he’d be he offered theopposite point of view I thought that ina number of instances than what we readand I struggle especially because a lotof this stuff is written so far afterthe war to decipher like you know andparticularly you who’ve studied a moreasking how do you understand and how doyou kind of consolidate two differentperspectives and who’s right and youwould actually have you you read a lotof things and play them off against oneanother and make judgments about whichpeople which historical actors tend tobe reliable and which are liars that anumber of them are just in better Liarsthey lie about everything he is he is Itold you before everybody else came in Ithink he is the single best writer aboutthe war among all the people whoexperienced the war and wrote about it02:04from the Confederate side and I think on02:06the Union side the only one02:08better than geniuses u.s. grant us grant02:11and Porter Alexander are the two best02:12memoirs military memoirs of the Civil02:15War he wrote another book as you know if02:18you read the introduction in here02:20carefully that he published in nineteen02:21seven and Alexander did called military02:23memoirs of a Confederate it’s so good02:25that it has never been out of print02:27two hundred and thirteen years later02:28that books never gone out of print02:30he wrote this one however before he02:33wrote military memoirs and military02:34memoirs has a misleading title because02:37it isn’t a memoir it’s really a history02:39of the Army of Northern Virginia02:41he wrote this one first wrote it only02:44for his children which gives him a tone02:49that simply is almost never present in a02:52memoir as you know he’s very hard on02:55robert e lee in various places in there02:57almost no former Confederates were hard02:58on these very hard on Stonewall Jackson03:00he quotes profanity he quotes instances03:03of cowardice he’s absolutely up front03:06about Confederate soldiers who killed03:07black soldiers who tried to surrender at03:10the Battle of the crater he’s not very03:11matter-of-fact they killed them they03:13came they heard there were black03:14soldiers they came from way down at the03:16other end of the line so they could kill03:17one of them it’s it’s it’s an amazing03:21book in many ways and it was a03:23revelation to me not only to me but to03:26people who knew Alexander well and in03:28the literature very well I think that03:30has become the single most quoted book03:34on Lee’s army by anyone who was in his03:37army and it’s just because he’s I’ve03:40been able to check lots of things over03:41the years his descriptions and so forth03:43and he he’s amazingly accurate was an03:47engineer he’s really smart he’s03:48obnoxious Lee smart can tell by reading03:50this that he was a pain to a lot of03:52people because he was smarter than they03:54were and they knew he was smarter than03:55they were one of one of those kinds of03:57people we all know those people we maybe04:00those people but anyway he’s one of04:02those people and he had there’s a04:04description in there of a place on the04:06North Anna River he was at that place04:08one time for 30 minutes in his life and04:12he described how the Federals started to04:14shell that position and how the house04:16had recessed windows04:20said they thought they were about a foot04:21and he jumped up in one of the windows04:23and pressed himself against that as the04:26shells came in and one of the union04:27shells hit a chimney that was up to to04:30his left and destroyed part of it and we04:33took a tour there this has been 15 years04:35ago now got to that house and it’s04:38exactly as he described it recessed04:41windows a chimney with a repair on the04:44top of it right to the top left of the04:46window which was on the side of the04:48house where he said he was it’s just04:49astonishing of what his memory was like04:52but he also had a diary that helped jog04:55his memory04:56and he had letters that he’d written04:57during the war that he also used when he04:59wrote this so it’s so it’s an amazing05:02account that doesn’t mean it’s05:03infallible and it doesn’t mean there’s05:05no second guessing there’s always second05:06guessing in a memoir even more generally05:09I mean it talks about in the the other05:11book about how even in the war council05:14would need like there were all the05:17different people who were there and have05:19first-hand accounts have dipped recount05:21like the weather men had reservations05:25about and they don’t all agree and if05:31three weeks from now somebody looked all05:34of us up and asked us to give them an05:36account of this class meeting there05:39would be many things that would be05:41difficult to reconcile we would you’re05:43all going to very different memories of05:44what goes on in here you hear different05:47things you process different things05:49differently and you’ll just have05:51different memories I think I’m very05:53suspicious of oral histories as a05:55category of evidence they’ve they’re05:58very much used now they’re going to be06:00used more and more because people don’t06:01write letters anymore and they try to06:03destroy email even though they really06:05can’t but they get it beyond the reach06:06of historians so it’s going to be a real06:11problem I think an even bigger problem06:13than it has been in the past06:15yes and06:17worse because if we were sharing our06:20view of this class we wouldn’t have an06:21agenda oh you might have an agenda06:24we might everybody has an agenda I’m not06:27that compared to people who are trying06:29to chose not comparative people whose06:31reputations are on the line06:32yes not compared to Daniel sickles06:34arguing with George Gordon Meade about06:37what went on on the second day of the06:39Battle of Gettysburg no they have a lot06:41right now I have a lot riding on that06:43yes I think kind of a different way that06:48liyan means are treated is really06:51interesting it seems like Lee gets away06:53with making a lot of mistakes and06:55everybody forgives him and his06:56reputation still really strong and it06:58seems all neat successes are kind of07:00characterizes not sort of good luck you07:05mean his successes at Gettysburg yeah07:07good kind of good fortune and I is it07:10does we get away with it because of the07:12charisma because I want to know what you07:16think the answer to your own question is07:18that was the one thing I could come up07:21with and also maybe Longstreet just07:23going on such a tiring after Gettysburg07:25probably helpfully out in a huge way but07:29it did it I think if we could bring Mead07:32and Lee into this room and have them07:36here they would leave and then we would07:38talk about them and you would have a07:40very different impression of lead than07:43you did me no matter what you thought07:45and you might have an impression going07:46in by the time they left I think you07:50would leave was just one of those people07:52who commanded spaces and impressed07:57people even people who didn’t especially07:59think they wanted to like him me was08:02grumpy and he doesn’t have a lot of08:05successes over all his career I mean Lee08:06comes into Gettysburg with this resume08:08with a number of really quite08:10spectacular successes on it almost all08:13against the odds and me doesn’t have08:16that on these resume08:17never has that on his resume and has the08:19bad fortune about a year after08:23Gettysburg to find himself traveling08:25he’s still the commander the army but08:27grant is traveling with the army and so08:29it’s not means army it’s grants army if08:32anything good happens it’s grants army08:34if anything bad happens it could be08:36means army well so what08:38you never think that lea would do08:41something like media Chamberlain like08:44give him like 120 men and just like well08:48me didn’t do that to Chamberlain08:50underlings did it I mean it happened it08:52was way down the chain of command it was08:54the brigade commander who told08:55Chamberlain a guy named strong Vincent08:58and you’ll see his little marker where09:00he was mortally wounded strong Vincent09:01told Joshua Chamberlain strong Vincent09:03commanded this brigade and in the fifth09:07Corps and Joshua Chamberlain’s main09:09regiment was one of the regiment’s in09:10that when you walk along Little Round09:12Top when you’re there they’re the main09:14regiment then there’s an 83rd09:16Pennsylvania and there’s a Michigan09:18regiment and a New York regiment those09:20are the four regiments in a brigade and09:21it just so happened that Chamberlain09:23ended up on the left but of course you09:25mean what would we put soldiers in a09:28position like that yeah09:29just like that oh he would just09:32absolutely like that09:34yep yep say though that meat has like09:36nothing like what Lee has on his resume09:38but he was the commander of the army09:41when the Union won the biggest battle of09:45the war so isn’t that a huge resume09:46building no because it’s grants army in09:49everybody’s mind it’s because US Grant09:51is with that army the entire way09:53once he gets east which is to say the09:56only battle where George Meade is really09:58the commander of the army of the coma is10:00this one but it’s a big one but it is a10:03big one it’s a really big one it’s a big10:05one that left10:06Abraham Lincoln with what idea about me10:10did he let Lee get away and finished you10:13had a chance to really finish the job10:15and he didn’t do it didn’t do it10:18immensely frustrated by this once grant10:21comes Meade is part of the eye and I10:25think meat was a good soldier don’t get10:27me wrong but meat is not the soldier10:29could win the war for the United States10:31I mean there’s not the slightest chance10:34that he could have been a soldier who10:35won the war the United States he just10:37doesn’t just doesn’t have it why do you10:40think he was so and and I was surprised10:45by the essay on meeting here because10:47he’s like touted as this great very10:51positive este positive but when you read10:53it there he doesn’t do that much he just10:55like repositions some people and gets a10:57lot of credit for that but obviously10:59clearly Sowers is he’s very good at11:01repositioning you know that sounded so11:05snarky actually was good at11:08repositioning and that is important11:10we’ll taco I mean this is yeah so we’ll11:13talk about that what’s your body is11:14narrow if you got bottom line to this11:16particular set of comments all effort11:19those trying to dish I was trying to11:20defend the point that meat had nothing11:22on his resume because well coming into11:24Gettysburg here’s range resume he was a11:27pretty good division commander he11:29commanded the Pennsylvania reserves he11:30commanded the division at Antietam then11:32he’s promoted the corps commander he’s a11:34corps commander at Chancellorsville but11:36he doesn’t really do anything he was11:38still a division commander at11:39Fredericksburg and his guys got shot11:41just like everybody else’s he did okay11:43but he didn’t really stand out so he’s11:46an okay corps commander he was a pretty11:48good division commander and he’s an army11:50commander who’s been in command for11:51three days that’s a pretty blank resume11:55I think for someone who’s an i and in11:58contrast Lee has the seven-day second12:00Bull Run the Maryland campaign12:01Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville on12:03his resume vastly different maybe back12:08to Kara’s question a little bit Scott’s12:09um does the difference between what12:14Howley and he’ll meet or perceived as a12:16maybe to some of that stem from they’re12:20just they’re different leadership styles12:21as well the fact that it does seem like12:23pretty consistent Lili is the central12:27figure right he’s figurehead he’s an12:29idol all all decisions flow to him he12:32has a very small staff and much too12:35small right and12:36admittedly and and at the same time mead12:39is having counsels and group discussions12:43and votes about what should be done and12:46I wonder if that distributive form of12:50power just that kind of a distributive12:52power structure if maybe that also these12:54because it makes it easy for meets12:56critics to look them and say oh he12:58didn’t decide anything the group did13:00okay right but at the same time in my13:03mind it seems like that actually might13:05be a more effective more effective but13:08that was one of the questions that I13:09wanted to talk about that I wanted to do13:11at last but I don’t care how we do this13:13I will get to lots of things tonight and13:15since this is supposed to be a more13:17freeform evening we can do just exactly13:20whatever you want to do as long as you13:22don’t get wildly out of control but if13:25we want to talk about that I’m happy to13:27talk about that they have very different13:29leadership styles leak and make a13:30decision Lee doesn’t need votes to13:34decide what he’s going to he talks to13:35people talks to Longstreet every day13:37we’ll do more of this next week talking13:39about the subordinates goes and talks to13:41you’ll and his subordinates on the night13:43of the first talks to you again that13:45night he’s worried about you all he’s13:47already figuring out that you’ll he’s13:49not Stonewall Jackson which he didn’t13:51know before now he’s figuring that out13:53but he never says let’s vote never says13:57that’s all getting the room and vote13:58that’s not he does not need to do that14:01but me certainly you can have some14:04sympathy for being in this situation14:06that having been in command for three14:08days and never been an army commander14:12before he’s junior to some of the pizza14:14some of the other corps commanders he14:15isn’t even the senior corps commander14:17he’s junior to John Reynolds he’s junior14:19to John Sedgwick it’s not even the14:21senior corps commander in the army and14:23people in the army are very meticulous14:26about rank during the Civil War and even14:30now but then they certainly were if I’m14:33a Major General and Bryce is a14:35major-general but I was a major-general14:36a month before Bryce I’m not going to be14:39entirely comfortable if Bryce is put in14:42charge of me because I rank him14:46and that’s the case with me at14:48Gettysburg it’s two of his subordinates14:50who are senior to him in the army Justin14:53I was gonna say isn’t someone telling as14:55well at one time that he did pole that14:56he wanted to kind of back away the14:58reposition and was it all the corps15:00commanders we wanted to stay all the15:02ones who were awake yes and one was15:05asleep and one didn’t vote but yes all15:07those who voted but what is the point15:10this essay this favorable essay to him15:12what’s the point that he makes in that15:14essay that’s a decision that people15:16appointed too many times this show that15:18me just can’t meet has to get he needs a15:20consensus he needs to find out what15:22everybody wants to do what’s the yes I15:24say about that said he’d already made up15:29his mind to stay before he asked for the15:32vote but he hadn’t made up his mind15:34about was whether to remain on the15:37defensive or to attack the next day but15:39he’d already made the decision and15:41already sent a message to the War15:42Department about his intention to stay15:46so he made one decision without talking15:48to but of course that raises the15:51question what if what if six of the nine15:54people in the room and said well we15:55think we need to go we don’t think we15:57should stay then I think George mean why16:02not of stage who knows we can’t know16:05about that but I think that police is16:09right behind this specific better which16:12is a big one isn’t better this kind of16:15leadership style because you have so16:17many battle fronts and then you can16:19instead of like waiting the kind of16:21hours to come to talk to you and send16:23another decision like everybody just16:25decide by themselves and you know you16:28kid16:29on a faster speed than the enemy because16:31it’s so centralized it they cannot go as16:35fast as you can no because no and that’s16:37so that’s smart so he brings everybody16:40in and he asks Hancock what’s going on16:46in your part of the line and he asks16:47Warren let’s go what have you seen I16:49mean and everybody can tell him bring16:52their intelligence from the very parts16:53of the line sure that’s I would think16:55that’s a smart16:56to do that’s a smart thing to do for the16:58next day to plan is wailing and again17:01for the same day battles but once the17:04battle starts then of course it becomes17:05very difficult because communication is17:07so problematical on a Civil War17:10battlefield really problematical you17:12want to send a message to Hancock and17:15you so you get your staff officer Scott17:19and start point him in the direction of17:21where you think Hancock is supposed to17:23be and he goes and well Hancock has gone17:26over to talk to somebody else so he’s17:28not there or Scott gets shot on the way17:31over or he gets lost or his horse gets17:33shot I mean anything it’s really really17:36difficult to maintain what we would17:40consider reasonable control of a17:42battlefield when you’re talking about17:43there are 160,000 men on that17:48battlefield within a few miles of one17:50another17:51Jake said that was a question I had17:52reading the paper we’re talking the17:55first day a lot about we was exerted17:58yeah I actually talked about that but18:00you’re being kind yeah how much the18:06communication of the time I mean how18:08much it was can user well here’s the18:10influence he can exert on the first day18:12the waited what did Lee wants what are18:14these orders in his army what’s the18:17situation on the first day is Lee is18:19riding toward Gettysburg that morning of18:24July 1st anybody to have to avoid a big18:26engagement he has ordered his18:28lieutenants not to bring on a general18:30engagement quiet his whole army isn’t18:33done yet Longstreet pickets armies all18:35over southern Pennsylvania he wants them18:37back together it’s the same thing18:38happened to her in the Maryland campaign18:40his army was scattered all over Maryland18:42and he was pushed into a fight so here18:45he wants the army back together before18:47he gets into a fight those are the18:50instructions the night before oh so what18:52happens in the morning okay ap Hill19:00tales19:01Henry Heath he can walk into Gettysburg19:03to look for shoes who is not doing this19:07job right there what what is what19:09missing component here Jim Stewart if19:13Jeff Stewart had been there with the19:14cavalry we would have known there were19:16pebbles in Gettysburg you would have19:18known and Henry Heath would not have19:20walked into Gettysburg with his big19:22clunking division which is not what big19:25clunking divisions of infantry do you19:27don’t line 7,000 guys up on the road for19:30a breast and walk toward something19:32you’re not sure about but that’s what19:34was that’s what happened just annoying19:36is what was the definition of general19:38engagement in terms of so in my mind and19:40reading kind of essentially this was you19:43know heavy reconnaissance this was you19:45know there’s some engagement but it19:46wasn’t the full-on Army’s colliding well19:49what happens when you start shooting at19:50each other19:51put the Hoosier how many are shooting it19:53does doesn’t it but button but let me19:56reframe my question what can happen when19:59you if you have an infantry division20:00that starts shooting at other people20:02that can easily turn you together I mean20:05the best way not to bring on a general20:07engagement is don’t go start shooting at20:09somebody if you’re an infantry division20:11let your cavalry sort of do what cavalry20:14do and don’t send an infantry division20:17forward and so by the time20:21soli hears this firing in the direction20:24of Gettysburg and decides to go take a20:27look so he gets there – any of you20:30remember about when you got there up to20:33Oklahoma about two o’clock he shows up20:35on her Ridge you’ll see her ridge when20:37you get there it’s one Ridge over from20:39McPherson Ridge so here comes Lee here’s20:43Gettysburg here’s Burridge merson’s20:47Ridge seminary Ridge Oak Hill and20:52Cemetery Hill and Culp’s Hill wildly out20:55of proportion but generally the soli20:58shows up here to what has gone on down21:02to that point in the day what’s the21:04situation when he gets there can anybody21:07give us a quick account 25 seconds21:12what’s happened21:13he’s moving in on this road he come in21:16two on the Chambersburg pike modern21:18route 3021:19with his 7000 infantry21:21and he gets this far he gets to her21:24Ridge any runs into Buford’s cavalry21:28which is here and on McPherson Ridge and21:30the cavalry make heath deploy which21:33takes them takes a long time to get 700021:36men from being four abreast walking21:40along road to in battle lines like this21:43so you go for its call from going you’re21:46in column on the road and you go into21:48line into a battle formation takes an21:50hour for Heath to do that then they21:54fight here and it’s a and the battle is21:57on an east-west axis we’ve talked about21:58all of this the cavalry fights about an22:01hour and then John Reynolds comes up22:04with the first Corps and then it becomes22:05an infantry fight Justin this is why22:07it’s you don’t want your infantry22:08walking along Pennsylvania and running22:11into somebody now you have an entire22:14infantry Corps fighting a Confederate22:17division now you’ve got $15,000 17,00022:21guys shooting at each other that’s22:22getting very close to being a general22:24engagement already but you get a22:27stalemate here because the Federals are22:30in a good position on McPherson’s Ridge22:32you’ll see that ground it’s very good22:35ground22:35some veterans are on her rich but just22:39before Lee gets on the battlefield22:42Robert Rhoades is division of Richard22:46Ewell’s Corps shows up on Oak Hill and22:50when you stand on Oak Hill it’s a22:51stunning aspect from Oak Hill the Union22:55battle line is like this facing it that22:58way22:59Confederate artillery on Oak Hill and23:01they’re looking right down the whole23:03Union line it’s an artillerist dreams23:06you can’t miss if you shoot a little bit23:09short you’ll hit Federals here if you23:11shoot a little bit long you’ll hit23:13Federals here you’d have to be an23:15absolute dope knocking at federal23:18somewhere if you’re an artillerist up23:20here where they come in then Confederate23:23infantry shows up here and that23:25reorients the entire battle now the23:27Federals have to bring the 11th Corps23:29they bring the 11th Corps out here and23:31part of the first Corps now has to23:33which and paste that way now it’s a23:36battle that has a north-south axis and23:39an east-west axis and when Lee gets here23:41what he sees is the Confederates it’s23:44sheer luck as we talked about last time23:46they’re coming in at exactly the right23:49place every time the Federals get a23:52battle line in place Confederates come23:54in beyond their line and so Lee sees23:57that and he is the one who makes the23:59decision here24:00he says push it so he has changed his24:04orders at that point don’t bring on a24:05general engagement oh wait a minute this24:08general engagement looks like it’s24:09really going our way and so here is24:12combative aggressive side comes out and24:15he says push it but that’s a key24:17decision for him to make but he makes it24:20on the basis of what he can actually see24:22from there he can see the elements24:24coming together tactically it makes24:27sense we see Iran when I began I had to24:29that’s do you see retreat right he what24:32retreat or like doesn’t get into24:35engagement convenient many things you24:37said no don’t fight roll like don’t24:39retreat if you need to then yeah not so24:42much reach but yes and what had happened24:44to very the the day before this big24:49brigade under the bright North24:51Carolinian we talked about James24:52Johnston Pettigrew he had taken his24:55Brigade just the way heat went in on the24:57first Pettigrew did it on the 30th he24:59saw Union cavalry and what did he do he25:01immediately withdrew because his orders25:04were not to bring on a general25:05engagement that’s the other reaction25:07that is the reaction that that are that25:10reaction is the one that these orders25:12make pretty clear to anybody who has the25:15uniform on is desired reaction do not25:18start a fight because once you start a25:21fight anything can happen anything can25:24happen so Pettigrew hadn’t started a25:27fight the day before he gets into a25:29fight here but by the time Lee gets25:31there too these elements are coming25:33together and it seems to make sense to25:37let that let them but the by and go yes25:40so25:41there was a problem I know in other25:42battles used hot air balloons table you25:44might have been don’t know high air25:45balloons here that Confederates Porter25:48Alexander talks about the only instance25:49in the entire war for the Confederates25:52use a hot air balloon it’s during the25:53the Peninsula Campaign and it became25:56unboard and just floated down the James25:57the the Federals have a balloon core26:01sort of under a man named Thaddeus Lowe26:04who had balloons up during the seven26:08days balloons up at credit sure they’re26:09very unwieldy and in a really active26:12campaign like this the odds would be26:14against having them move with the army26:17and low fell out with the government the26:19government was paying him so much to be26:21a balloon guy it wasn’t in the army then26:24they they said willing to pay you half26:26as much and he said we’ll go to hell I’m26:28going to California and and that’s he26:30ended up out in Pasadena and mount Lowe26:32out there’s a named after low so they26:34have balloonist but Melinda’s are on26:36only a handful of battlefields in the26:38civil war they work you could get up see26:41everything they’d run a telegraph wire26:42up and so the balloonists are up there26:44tapping out what they can see down below26:46and the other side is trying to shoot26:49them down they dig holes put the trails26:51of the cameras in so they can get more26:52elevation and try to shoot them down but26:54they they don’t play a crucial role on26:57any battlefield okay sisters absence27:01that we talked about last night I feel27:03like I think it’s three days and27:05Gettysburg kind of offers him some27:07excuses and terms of only Alan Nolan27:10does because Alan Nolan wants all of it27:12on Lee so how does he let Stewart off27:13the book he says the league is in27:15country king borders and that he wants27:19him to protect the right flank but he27:20also you27:22I was hitting spy I uh you know what my27:28feelings are about is I I don’t think27:30you can let Stewart off the hook because27:32Stewart knew what his job was there’s27:34absolutely no question that he knew what27:37his job was his job was to screen the27:40armies movement is it went north and27:41gather intelligence about the Federals27:44that’s what his job is he’s really good27:47at it really good at it but he wasn’t27:51really good at it here in Allen who’s27:53the lawyer a really good lawyer Allen27:56was the senior partner in the biggest27:58law firm in Indiana and was on the28:00Harvard Law Review and he writes and28:02thinks like a lawyer which means he28:05doesn’t know how to use evidence because28:07lawyers here’s how lawyers use evidence28:10huh I want to argue a I’ve got 30 pieces28:16of evidence 11 of them support a 19 of28:22them support B but I want to argue B so28:25I’m going to use my 11 piece of evidence28:27and are you a that’s how you win cases28:30in a court you don’t have to tell about28:32the 19 pieces of evidence to the jury28:34but if you’re a historian and you’ve got28:3730 pieces of evidence and 2/3 of them28:40say me not a you have to think pretty28:43hard about arguing hey keep your28:46historian not if you’re a lawyer Alan28:48and I have many great discussions fueled28:51by he liked a really good scotch and28:54cigars and we would argue about this and28:57they’d say no historians don’t know how28:59to use evidence and I’m saying you know29:01really Alan come to terms with this but29:05that is that is how he makes his case29:08against Lee what’s the gist of a29:10lanolin’s case against Lee what is out29:14what really gets under Alan’s skin about29:17Stewart left some Calvary for him in a29:20broader sense oh no he did Stewart did29:22Lee cavalry he did leave cavalry you’re29:24running a company all of you you’ve got29:28six key subordinates you’ve got paid29:32really wonderful you’ve got be who’s29:35mighty damn good29:36you’ve got see who’s almost mighty damn29:38good you’ve got Dee who’s a complete29:41pain in the ass and can’t get along with29:43anybody else but it’s pretty good at29:44what he does you’ve got II who should be29:47sent to Siberia and kept away from Wars29:49and you’ve got it who is worse than e29:52Jeff Stewart takes these three with him29:54and leaves those three with lead so yes29:58he doesn’t need cavalry with Lee and30:00these two are cavalry who would fit into30:04the bar seeing in Star Wars this one is30:07good well you can’t get along with30:09anybody so it’s true that he leaves30:12cavalry that’s the truth but it’s not30:15cavalry that’s very good and so if you30:19have if you have a really critical30:21operation you’ve got three really good30:23underlings and three who are not really30:27very good and you decide these are the30:30ones you’re going to let it just me30:32that’s not a close call just to push30:34back inside though it wasn’t that big30:36failed at Gettysburg these three you30:38know deeper back it’s that you weren’t30:39even there30:40I mean why would you well the best one30:43the best one d and I’ll put a name on30:46him his name is William e Jones and his30:48nickname was grumbled that’s his actual30:51nickname he was known as grumble Jones30:53in the army30:55grumble Jones was left basically30:58watching the rear echelons of the army31:00which is an important place for him to31:01be the other two guys Beverly Robertson31:05who was a North Carolinian who should31:07have been court-martialed just before31:09the campaign started the other was a guy31:10named Albert31:11Jenkins who commanded this cavalry from31:14the western part of Virginia’s it was31:15just unspeakably unreliable they’re the31:19ones who were closest to what’s going on31:21with the army so it’s an Jeff Stewart31:23has Wade Hampton and fits you and he’s31:26got his best bits laid he’s got his very31:28best people with him up by Carlisle31:32Pennsylvania on the 1st of July31:34I mean they’re just they know but the31:36main thing the main thing as I said31:37before it isn’t even which subordinates31:40are or aren’t there the main thing is31:41the Jeff Stewart he’s the key31:44he’s the one he said that he’s in charge31:45of this so should we have given him that31:49responsibility of course he should31:50because he’s never letting down he’s31:52been a superb cavalry officer even31:56though it’s he’s been superb as long as31:58leads he’s been there ever since Lee’s32:01been in the Army Jeff Stewart has been32:02there right from the beginning and his32:04absolutely reliable just as reliable32:08does the way Longstreet has nothing32:11prepared lead for how long he’d be hated32:13Gettysburg not be prepared Lee in32:15contrast to you’ll whom Lee didn’t know32:19very much about he knows about Stewart32:21Stewart is an absolutely known quantity32:23to lead and so’s Longstreet okay I32:28didn’t get we’re trying to get like with32:30the cavalry I mean how custard assign32:32each cover he would take and did he need32:36because Lee Lee style of command we32:39talked about this before it’s a very32:41it’s a very loose rein that he exercises32:44over these people he really trusts he32:46tells Stewart what he wants him to do32:48and then what’s worrying about it and32:50just assumes that Stewart will do it32:52because Stewart has always done it32:54before so Stewart what Lee didn’t know32:56is it Stewart was going to take these32:58three brigades and ride off to the east32:59and end up out of contact with the army33:03through the absolutely critical part of33:06the campaign there was no way he could33:08have anticipated that no way and for his33:11thoughts did he need the best cover he33:13or Lee no it’s true Stewart was it33:16necessary or no could have performance33:19well if any of us I mean if we had been33:22if I were Jeff Stewart I would have33:24taken those guys too and so would any of33:26you because they’re the people you rely33:28on the most it’s not their fault it’s33:31not his subordinates Stewart’s fault33:33yeah yeah yeah sure I would have taken33:34the best ones he did not think he was33:38good he didn’t think that he was leaving33:39Lee in the hands of these other33:41cavalryman’s Stewart did not think that33:43Stewart thought he was gonna be doing33:44what he was supposed to be doing he33:46didn’t know the army the Potomac was33:48going to start moving with him on the33:50other side of it and there they go33:53stuck33:54bryce what wasn’t that part of was it33:57nolan’s33:57I think it was no arguing that wasn’t34:00that part of it the breakdown was that34:02Lee had given Stuart so many orders34:05three or four different directives like34:07Alan argues that poor Jam would have34:10just been confused about what I was34:12supposed to defend and screen and gather34:16resources and swing around the army but34:19not too far but not too close he did not34:21tell him to swing around the in army to34:23be 12 but that’s a big okay if you do34:26they tell we did not come to swing34:28around the Union Army that’s Jeff York’s34:30decision okay that that would I don’t34:34think there I think if he thought he was34:36going to retrieve the reputation that34:37was taken a blow at brandy station or34:41Stuart almost lost the biggest cavalry34:43battle of the war after he’d been in his34:45peak Hokkien best of having big reviews34:49and balls tonight and having everybody34:52come and look at how wonderful he was34:54all those things and they was almost34:56defeated and he was humiliated34:58is it reasonable to expect that he could35:01have been confused by what seemed to be35:04contradictory orders you know what I35:06think he would have said if he was35:08confused he would have said generally35:09I’m not quite sure what you want me to35:12do here please clarify that’s all he35:15would have had to do if he would I don’t35:17think he was confused but if he were35:19confused that’s what you would do that’s35:22what anybody would do let me just make35:25sure this is what you want me to do35:26that’s all it would have taken they’re35:27together they’re in the same place he35:30can just go to Lee’s tent and say may I35:33have five minutes with the general I35:34have one thing I would like to clarify35:35what he thought we would have had to do35:40Dannan then my question is when he’s35:42dealing with someone like you all who35:44was not a known quantity who is35:46completely paralyzed by yes we know that35:50right he didn’t know that right so35:52that’s so that then that’s the question35:54is how does he deal with someone like35:55that you know in in a big confrontation35:58like Gettys35:59to say you know it indicates that you36:03were going to be paralyzed by my lack of36:06how did lady when did lead begin to have36:09it’s a real doubts about you Karen he36:14said that you should take it practical36:16and it’s that evening I think that Lee36:20began to think oh this isn’t okay it’s36:24not Stonewall Jackson and I better go36:26see just how far from Stonewall Jackson36:28this is soon wrote over to yields36:30headquarters that night and what have36:32you find when he got there when he let36:34them know that he wanted to maintain the36:36aggressive the next day what was the36:38reaction at at mules its you’ll and36:41Jubal Early who’s a division commander36:43Robert Rhoades who’s a division36:45commander those are the main people in36:47place there what’s their response the36:52response is just a passenger they try to36:55test the authenticity we don’t want to36:58be the main part of this offensive why37:00don’t you let somebody else be the main37:02part and we’ll we’ll play a secondary37:04role isn’t what Lee wanted to hear from37:07them not what he wanted to hear in that37:09room and not what he would have heard37:12from I hate to say it again Stonewall37:14Jackson it isn’t what he would have37:16heard from Stonewall Jackson and it’s37:18not what he would have heard from37:19Longstreet in most instances either he’s37:21spending at least gonna get a number of37:23little wake-up calls on July 1st at37:26Gettysburg ease already had one about37:28Stewart and he gets one about you he37:31gets one about Longstreet when they have37:33their first sort of tense conversation37:36in the afternoon Brian yeah kinda on37:38that that one more interesting passages37:41was Craig talking about the leading37:43causes of southern fetus first Stewart’s37:47absence second I guess you’ll Xin37:50competence right third long he puts on37:52cheek confidence brought you agreeing37:53with that I you know I think Stewart is37:58in a separate category because if38:00Stewart’s that there wouldn’t even have38:01been a battle if Stewart had been doing38:03what Stewart was supposed to do once38:04they’re on the battlefield I think I38:07think Longstreet is more culpable38:09I think poor you’ll have38:10reasons for not attacking late in the38:13afternoon he knew things that Lee didn’t38:15know he said he would attack if ap Hill38:17supported him on the right Lee was38:20literally with ap Hill when he got that38:23word from you and Lee never told AP hill38:25to attack which seems that seems odd to38:29me that Lee would sort of not have he’ll38:31attack but would expect you’ll to attack38:33and it seems reasonable to want a38:36coordinated attack so I I think Lee is38:38culpable there and I don’t know he never38:40explained why he didn’t tell Hill to38:43attack Hill had one division that hadn’t38:45fired a single shot his biggest division38:47hadn’t even been in the action yet38:49commanded by a guy named Anderson from38:52South Carolina hadn’t even been in the38:54fight so I don’t know what’s going on38:57with Lee there that to me is38:58inexplicable but boy did he he put a39:02black mark next to eul’s name39:06metaphorically at that point and it and39:09it never got erased it only has any put39:11up more but this is the first one that39:13night first he had an attack then he39:16didn’t seem aggressive when Lee went and39:18talked to him leave with Lee it’s pure39:21one of his subordinates you might not39:24always succeed but he would want you to39:28be aggressive and want to succeed and39:31want to harm the enemy if he doesn’t get39:35that kind of vibe from you it’s not good39:38for you terms about he’s going to think39:41about you39:46basically said that Lee was on the field39:49it was with health would would you let39:51some to some extent I said that I did at39:580.2 like this were like a business and40:01your CIO yeah not doing well it’s gonna40:04be a CEO that takes responsibility takes40:06the fall40:07I agree completely I don’t understand40:09why unless it in legal terms of is just40:12all charisma at some point a remand ago40:16does the tax except Lee estates all40:18culpability and it seems like these40:19commanders are the scapegoat he other40:23people made everyone but lead the40:25scapegoats at Gettysburg and I think40:27there’s plenty of blame to pass around40:29but you can’t Lee doesn’t get a pass40:30here he is the one and he is on the40:33scene with Hill he’s right there so that40:36is in he is he’s the one who decides to40:38make it a big battle he’ll doesn’t40:40decide to make it a big battle Lee40:41decides to make it a big battle when40:43he’s on the scene and then he decides40:46not to do something else with he’ll he’s40:48but once he gets once he rides Traveler40:52up off the Chambersburg pike on to her40:56Ridge it is his battle down til then you40:59can point to lots of people why did41:01he’ll let Heath go in why did he do that41:02where’s Jeff Stewart once Lee is there41:05and the chalk is smacking all over the41:08ground then he’s the heat there we agree41:13with you completely the responsibilities41:14on his shoulders absolutely on his41:16shoulders then his defenders would say41:19well Lee wanted to do this and his41:21subordinates letting down he hoped they41:24would do this and they didn’t do that41:25and he but he is in charge once he gets41:29to the field at two o’clock I agree was41:33that part of what41:35he was official communications never41:39disingenuous about what happened or41:42maybe not disingenuous but he put it in41:44an air that he was trying to get certain41:46things done but trying to be defensive41:49if at all possible he was forced into41:52this and ultimately I guess passed a41:54little bit of the buck in terms of the41:56fact that it was his decision well I41:59actually know I don’t think Lee I think42:02one of the things I think is Admiral42:04badly is that he does take42:05responsibility he took the42:07responsibility in a letter the Jefferson42:09Davis right after he said I’m I it’s my42:11fault I asked the troops to do more than42:13they can do it’s my fault now he in his42:16post-war conversations which he didn’t42:19think would ever become published and42:21which did eventually become published he42:24he had a hierarchy of blame and he did42:28blame Jeff Stewart and he was hard on he42:32lumped all his corps commanders together42:33he said they fought the battle in a42:35halting way and his clear you’ll would42:38be at the top of that list but but42:40healing is on happening with the ellen42:41long stream as well so yes he does point42:43the finger at people but doesn’t in his42:45official report and he doesn’t publicly42:47and he didn’t with his own men right42:49after the battle he rode right out among42:51them you walk out on that part of the42:53field and said this is all my it’s all42:55my fault not it’s all my fault that’s42:57mostly my fault or it’s our fault it’s42:59my fault he said I salute also thinking43:07only and going to this point that was43:11also him complaining a lot about not43:13having commanders or generals to talk43:16with a versity but that he was already43:18in the war for a while so he’s an he’s43:21also his folk that he didn’t develop to43:24other Cornell’s or general brigades43:29because you know he knew the size was43:31getting in he knew he wanted to spread43:34out43:35more they corpse but he didn’t do well43:41bring you up more officers right well43:44here’s the here’s we talked about this43:46problem before and when you’re all43:48running high-powered country there are43:49companies you’ll probably find this out43:52too it’s hard to be certain that43:55somebody who’s done very well at this43:57level is going to do very well at this44:00level you just can’t tell sometimes they44:03do sometimes they’re spectacular44:04sometimes they end up with your job44:06button you try all the fuel somehow and44:08what he’s trying this is their first44:10battle since Stonewall Jackson died so44:13this is the very first time that his to44:15unknown quantities are going to be corps44:18commanders hill and you’ll they’ve never44:20commanded this many men before it’s new44:23for them this is their first time at bat44:26at that level of command so no he has no44:29record to go on there no record to go44:31there is no the way to try them all well44:35the other way to try them out is they44:36command at the next lowest level he’s44:38not going to tell Stonewall Jackson take44:39a battle op I want to see how he’ll does44:41as a guard commander know it’s donal44:44jackson’s their stonewall jackson’s in44:46charge it’s a it’s a brutal process in44:51the Civil War when do you have to44:52replace someone usually someone who’s44:54any good when they’re killed that’s when44:57you have to do it so Jackson is dead45:00what are we going to do one of the key45:02decisions that we made right after45:05Jackson died is the army had always been45:07in two pieces Jackson and half of it in45:10Longstreet had half of it Lee decided45:13that he probably shouldn’t trust anyone45:16else with that much so he may cut it45:18into three pieces instead of two and so45:21whereas Jackson and Longstreet that each45:26had a core with four divisions in it45:28that’s the old army in Northern Virginia45:30eight divisions in two Corps when they45:33create the new 3rd Corps they take that45:36division goes there that division goes45:39there and they bring a new division into45:41the army so it is so now James45:44Longstreet score is smaller than it was45:46before Richard you’ll got a smaller45:48version of the Corps that that Jackson45:51had commanded in AP Hill got a brand new45:54Corps that had his old division in it45:56which came out of Jackson’s court plus45:59one division from Longstreet’s Corps and46:01then the new one that hadn’t been with46:03the army before46:03that’s one decision Lee made and I think46:06that decision in itself shows that he’s46:09Lewis that’s almost one way to see how46:12these guys will do you’re giving them46:13not as quite as much responsibility as46:16Longstreet and Jackson had under the old46:19organization you’ve reorganized the army46:21and reduced the amount of responsibility46:24that each of your first tier of46:26subordinates has but it was a46:29requirement to do West Point46:31no it’s not a requirement but the other46:37side they had channels that were gone46:41they had one yeah one Corps commander46:44Dan sickles46:46is the only car commander in either army46:48who didn’t go to West Point in the46:50general to get religion there are lots46:54of Colonels lots of because there aren’t46:56enough West pointers to command these46:58gigantic armies so the vast majority of47:00officers in the armies did not go to47:03West Point but the top echelon of47:06command in both armies overwhelming in47:10all the Civil War armies overwhelmingly47:12went to West Point sickles is the only47:14one who didn’t and sickles is sort of47:16the odd man out in the army a lot of the47:19other officers don’t like him he’s not47:22part of the club in any way that didn’t47:25blade for Lydia also a problem to47:28choosing officers high rank because oh47:30you have to be West Point so don’t know47:31certainly gyro classic he would have47:34just know everybody he considered was a47:37West pointer everybody who was47:39conceivably a candidate to be a corps47:41commander47:42see that there was also like necessary47:46or he was too careful no I don’t think47:50there was anybody if I were at least I47:51wouldn’t even know where you’d have to47:53go so far down to get somebody who was47:55in the West pointer the idea of taking47:57them from they might be a brigade47:59commander so you go from commanding 150048:01min to 20,000 men that’s too that’s too48:03big a jump to take too big a jump at the48:06very end of the war there was a man48:08named John Gordon who you’ll you’ll see48:13where they’ll talk about him at48:15Gettysburg Marines will I’m sure when48:17you’re there he ends up as a corps48:19commander at the very at Appomattox he’s48:21a Corps commander he’s a non West48:23pointer who’s just a kind of brilliant48:25military figure but he takes him a long48:28time and the only reason he gets up48:29there is because everybody else is48:31getting shot and he ends up in that48:34position48:41there’s a pause here yet yes do we start48:45a new line yes let’s start a new thread48:47I’m going to make another feeble attempt48:50to get you to say something nice about48:51books I’d say a lot of nice things on48:53long street when I was free was very48:55tall but I was going what I was trying48:59to find when I was digging through my49:00mom Street this was some I remember49:02reading at some point there was some49:04study someone did they actually tried to49:07duplicate his large on the second day49:11and they said and I wanted no fingers I49:14remember that he got to a point where he49:18was exposed so we had to backtrack and49:20take a look around can do you know yeah49:23do you know what I’m talking about49:24I guess I’ve made them you tell me I’ve49:26taken many groups on that March it is49:28it’s it’s an importer Alexander he talks49:31about it he they wanted to get around to49:34the Union left and you you come down a49:38road and I don’t know whether the49:39Marines maybe they’ll take you on the49:40smart shoe you come up to this little49:42piece of high ground you’re looking a49:43little ramp up and round top and their49:46Union signalman up there and they don’t49:47want to be discovered so when they see49:49that they drop back down off it RIA49:51today does this long counter March and49:52gets down in the bottom he’s got a gap49:54of about five hundred yards you need to49:56get from here to right down here without49:58being seen so he does this long well50:00Porter Alexander reached that same place50:02earlier in the day for his artillery50:04caught up and all they saw that what was50:07his solution to the problem he dropped50:09down went about 400 yards off to his50:12right and ended up down where he was50:13supposed to be cooking maybe 20 minutes50:15to do it 20 minutes with him when he50:17goes well yeah I was artillery the50:19artillery was out in front of the50:21infantry it’s not how many guys you have50:22it’s how do you solved the problem he50:24solved the problem in a very efficient50:26indirect way Longstreet solved the50:28problem in the most cumbersome50:30imaginable way but ate up lots of50:32precious time and Alexander remarked in50:35another context he didn’t see why the50:37infantry when they got there just didn’t50:38follow his horse droppings around to see50:41how they got where they were going50:43because it’s just and when you stand50:44there the ground just lays out the50:47camera is Little Round Top we’re50:49standing on this little road here50:50there’s of the ridge goes just like this50:52and we drop back this50:54our and we just come around go around50:58the back row and we end up where the50:59camera is and nobody can see us51:02I mean you can see it all from right51:03there can see how so you could have to51:07find another thing to get Longstreet up51:09okay that was not going to work that one51:11he should have been able to figure out51:12he did things he didn’t start to get his51:17column ready to march until his last big51:19aid was up and now this is inside the51:22beltway minutia but I mean this is he51:24waits for a bit for his very last reggae51:26to get out before he starts to get ready51:28to go why didn’t he get ready to go and51:31when the last Brigade comes up go but51:34didn’t he do that because he didn’t51:35agree with the orders and yes yeah what51:38kind of subordinate does that because it51:39doesn’t agree with the orders I mean51:42really if he really doesn’t want to do51:44it then say General Lee I can’t I’m51:46sorry I disagree so violently with what51:49you’re doing that I think you should put51:51someone else in my place that’s what you51:53do if you’re not gonna try your best51:55that’s what you do get out of the way I51:58hate to play you called Payton so I’m52:01only going to run at half speed on this52:03account I know the ball is gonna come to52:04me but I’m not going to run very fast I52:06think you should have called a slam yes52:09kind of a go you don’t get to do that if52:12you’re the receiver and Peyton Manning52:14calls the play or you what our I52:16guarantee you you won’t be a receiver52:18very long if you do that two or three52:20times and he knows you’re doing it you52:23don’t get to do that in an army and and52:27I do and I think you put your finger52:29right on I think that’s exactly what52:30Longstreet was doing he’s making a point52:32but let’s save him for next week we’ll52:35talk about Longstreet a lot next week52:37we’re supposed to focus on need and Lee52:41Jenny right I’m buying you affirm but I52:46thought we were doing tonight52:47that’s why I feel so empowered but52:50talking about we and just shouldn’t go52:54in across some timing52:56that’s a huge that’s what I had actually52:58intended to start with tonight but this53:00is sort of stream of consciousness the53:03way we’re coming out this so now we’re53:04back in the aftermath of53:06Chancellorsville right should he have53:08even gone53:09what does Alan know and think about that53:10well he kind of displays the argument a53:13bit yes and they’ll take it to the north53:16but it seems that it’s too aggressive53:18like Alan think you said pee on my ear53:20yeah53:21what should we have done according to53:23Alan I should have just gone a bit53:25defensively hunker down baby and select53:28the Yankees come to you just like at53:30Fredericksburg right oh I see the whole53:33points we talked about last class by53:35going to the Nord lure the army away53:37from Richmond you know using your army53:39to just dissipate making Morgan’s have a53:43call for peace but I feel like it’s a53:46huge hold of the guy and I don’t see why53:48the North with so many more men couldn’t53:51split their army and sack Richmond as53:54well as engaged Lee in Pennsylvania did53:56they all they just took him to54:00Pennsylvania right there I mean yes that54:02mate they left they left away what did54:04occur want to do when we march north he54:08wanted to go to Richmond but but why did54:12I mean but Lee understands what are the54:14realities what what would the northern54:16population say if General Lee’s headed54:19for Pennsylvania and the Army of the54:22Potomac goes the other way how is that54:24going to play behind the lines in the54:25United State is not it is not an option54:28there’s the biggest most famous rebel54:31army is in the United States what’s the54:34reaction you go get them and get them54:37out of the United States you don’t get54:38to go the other way but no they have54:41enough men to they can you babe I mean54:42there’s a how many armies do they have54:45next to Washington one one they have the54:49army Potomac what’s the army of the54:50tomek’s job deal with the army in54:54Northern Virginia where the army54:55Northern Virginia goes the army Potomac54:58god damn better well though or there are55:00going to be problems they’re going to be55:02tremendous problems for the Lincoln it55:04station so that is not an option to go55:07the other way not an option55:08Italy understood that even though hooker55:11having been crushed mentally by Li at55:14Chancellorsville wanted to do that I55:17still find that sort of hilarious that55:19the army commander would say well I want55:20to go the other way I know he’s headed55:22to the United States now’s my perfect55:24chance to go to Richmond but he didn’t55:27understand this Richmond is not the key55:28the key is Lee’s army so you thinking55:31sacrifice men we were just gone on55:33terrorizing Pennsylvania throughout I55:35mean I think there was no chance he was55:37going to sacrament there’s a zero55:39percent chance that politically he would55:42be allowed to do that this absolutely no55:44chance not a slim chance no chance that55:47he’s going to be allowed to do that55:49these are two Democratic Republic’s at55:52war this is one of the things we talked55:54about the first day politics and55:56military affairs are like this the56:00military the armies do not operate in a56:03military vacuum they operate in an56:06intensely politicized atmosphere and56:08people pay attention people being56:10civilians at home the boat pay attention56:14oh there’s no chase I’ll be right back56:16there in just a second oh sorry cuz last56:18class you said that he had to take the56:22army out of Virginia he said that yes56:25ledian yeah so how else you do that56:28without going to know that’s the only56:30way to do that we haven’t talked about56:32the main reason he said he wanted to get56:34it out of Virginia what’s the main56:36reason Lee wants to get the army out of56:39Virginia and then they want to give him56:40a chance to regrow there it’s logistics56:42he wants to give the farmers in Virginia56:45respite and he wants to get into56:47Pennsylvania and just siphon everything56:50his army can use out of that lush56:53central Pennsylvania countryside that’s56:55I think that’s the number one thing on56:57his mind56:59number two is he says you’re talking57:01about how big the armies are what is he57:0320 so he says if we don’t if we just sit57:05and wait what is going to happen we say57:08okay we won the Battle of57:09Chancellorsville I’m just gonna sit here57:11at Fredericksburg what’s going to happen57:15what’s going to happen what are the57:17federals could have do what are the57:19faendal is going to do in from Lee’s57:21perspective what does he say what’s the57:24scenario that he sketches out basically57:26he sees the war of attrition with the57:28north continuing to engage and bring the57:30war to the south one danger wherever57:33they choose to bring it he says they’re57:36bigger than we are they have more men57:38than we have if we just sit here we’re57:41going to allow our more powerful57:42opponent to take their time perfect57:45their plans and project their power at57:48the point of their choice and eventually57:52where does he say the army Northern57:54Virginia will end up yes it will end up57:56defending Richmond will end up in57:58Richmond and when he gets in Richmond58:00his view is the war is over58:02because it will end up as a siege and a58:05siege can only end one way with a58:08smaller force hunkered down and a larger58:10force enveloping it and he will do58:14almost anything to avoid death what58:16makes the comparison between Lee and58:18Washington wasn’t that was pretty58:19interesting yes Washington walking his58:21Lee’s idle right Washington let’s the58:24British take New York he lets them take58:26Boston you doesn’t have anything they58:27want we didn’t exactly let them take New58:30York they took New York the enthusiam58:32out but yes so the be moving into58:35Pennsylvania is basically the same as58:37Washington going to Valley Forge and58:40just kind of making his way down selves58:41and having to catch for loss at Yorktown58:44so from that perspective the war of58:47attrition isn’t a bad thing for Lee Lee58:50does not fight the war the way58:51Washington fought the revolution58:52absolutely Washington avoids big battles58:54but when Lee is afraid of this war of58:57attrition should he have been he’s59:01afraid of being besieged in Richmond59:03yeah he absolutely should have been what59:04how did the war in when he got besieged59:06in Richmond and Petersburg that’s when59:08the war ended yeah but like politically59:11the North was going to get tired of this59:13if we had avoided the big battle is that59:15fair to say if there weren’t big battles59:18the United States civilian population59:21probably wouldn’t have gotten tired of59:23it59:23as they got tired of it when their59:25soldiers were suffering hideous59:27casualties in these big bells it’s a59:30it’s a it’s this race for the59:33Confederates from Lee’s perspective a59:35race between attrition that comes with59:40winning the kinds of victories you’re59:41winning the depressed northern morale59:42and how quickly northern morale which is59:45going to have it is the North going to59:46give up first or we can run out of em59:48first that is the equation that Lee has59:50in his mind in an end the northern59:53morale proved resilient enough to absorb59:56a third of a million casualties and59:58still push on through all both came very60:01close in the summer of 64 not the60:03sticking to it I mean this close this60:06close you can you can make a great case60:10that it would have been better if Lee60:12hasn’t suffered so many casualties we’d60:14have to be an idiot not to make that60:15case but what you can’t supply and what60:18Alan Nolan could never answer I would60:22ask you how do you guarantee a supply of60:24Ambrose Burnside’s60:26to give you a bunch of battles of60:28Fredericksburg where you put your army60:29and really strong ground and your60:31opponent comes up and just attacks60:32uphill against you all day you only ever60:36found one of those guys in command of60:38the Union Army60:39excited about you know that that is what60:44caused the Union at that moment divided60:46what you do the same in the opposite way60:48because they would have all day fighting60:51uphill attacking a very entrenched60:53position they were going to lose I’m60:55Linda Park and right what worse what60:59you’re saying that while is that he61:00should have known that he would fail at61:02Gettysburg and should have known that61:04attacking a nindroid position uphill at61:07that moment is also the timing to be61:11affable61:11here’s the problem with that thinking he61:15did that it gains his mill in late June61:1918 he had a 50,000 man assault that61:21gains his smell biggest assault of the61:23war early that succeeded he had61:27assaulted Chancellorsville exactly two61:29months before the picket Pettigrew61:32assault where his infantry who were61:34outnumbered were attacking61:36who retrenched and they succeeded there61:39are and I think this is what led him I’m61:42not getting I’m just trying to explain61:44why I think he did this and it’s because61:46I think he believed in the end that his61:49infantry could just take care of61:52business no matter what the obstacles61:55because he had seen them do it in an61:59offensive mode 4 times before Gettysburg62:03but when you stand there and look across62:06you’ll stand on Cemetery Ridge and look62:08across at Cemetery Ridge and I mean you62:11I’m sure you’ll thank gosh we’re going62:13to line up here and walk over there with62:17people seven tenths of a mile with62:19people shooting at us with cannons and62:20mutlu whew it’s it’s it’s really62:26distressing to do that so should he have62:30nothing he had this great quotation62:32later he said i bided known that it62:34wouldn’t work even as dull a fellow as i62:36am would have done something different62:39but he didn’t know it wouldn’t work62:42Longstreet thought it wouldn’t work62:44and I think Longstreet Jim for all your62:47posturing about how I don’t like62:49Longstreet I think Longstreet’s idea was62:51better at getting Braddock Porter62:53Alexander’s idea is the best what if he62:55say Lee should have done after his big62:57victory on the first day Alexander says63:00there are three options and he says the63:02best one is one for the Confederates yes63:06hunker down we smacked the Federals63:10around on the first day they’re there on63:12this line here here we are on seminary63:16Ridge which is a nice defensive position63:18as well just we’ll hunker down and make63:21them attack us they never drive us from63:24positions said and Alexander said the63:27onus is on them to get us out of the63:29United States the place where Lee was63:32most disingenuous in his official report63:34is when he said that he the battle was63:37forced on him because his supply63:39situation was tenuous and in the essence63:41he had to attack that that is just not63:43true now Alexander calls him on that63:46he said well we stayed there for three63:48more days and fought a big battle and63:50then we stayed another 10 days north of63:53the Potomac if he had published that63:57book if Alexander had when he wrote it63:59he would have come in for incredible64:01criticism across the south incredible64:03for being so harsh on Lee anybody want64:06to do something else would leave right64:08now or shall we give this did this class64:10is no different than any other class64:11where it’s all about Lee we haven’t64:13spent much time on George media but any64:16kind of Lee aftershocks I’ll say after64:22I’ve made the answer to that note but we64:25are going to circle back to leave Mead64:29we’ve had a semi elephant defensively as64:33someone who was who did a very good job64:36in difficult circumstances I want to64:39hear someone offer a critique of need64:42that might not be quite so positive64:44if anyone reached that kind of64:47conclusion about it are you all need ice64:49in there so have a crack at a gym yes64:58that’s yes basically defending me and65:03saying that it really was a critical65:05place seemed to me to be mostly about65:16and it was you’ll see his he wasn’t65:19blown up but there were lots of65:21cannonballs coming around and then so he65:22left so the entire narrative of his65:26actions during the day seemed like he65:29wasn’t really interesting that much the65:31biggest effect that’s all I came out65:33about him was that he yes he did make65:34this a that one decision early on65:36brought everyone together to get65:39information out of a consensus65:41the decision but everything else seems65:45to just fall into place because the boom65:49commanders or his subordinates did their65:53job well or just kind of happened when65:57did he get to the battlefield when this65:59meat show up and get his birth the night66:04of day one how late on the night of is66:08almost midnight66:09so almost midnight so that’s66:11everything’s over with he has to make a66:14decision that night too I mean he there66:17he has a decision to make am I going to66:19stay here tomorrow or not what about on66:23the second66:23what are his biggest what’s his biggest66:26crisis on the second sickles yes what’s66:34what so what’s the deal with sickles66:38you’re George Gordon Meade what do you66:41think is happening on your line on the66:44second until you find out differently66:46you put your line together how are you66:49thinking what the hell are you doing66:51well no now wait a minute I said what66:53are you thinking before you find out66:54what’s it doing how would you put your66:56line together in a nice interior lines66:59on high ground you don’t probably don’t67:01even it’s right goes from it goes from67:03cold tail this is such a mess here now67:05we’re going to start over like you’re67:08doing with all these warranties67:10this is great we have boards and boards67:13co-ceo Cemetery Hill which confusingly67:18has the same initials Cemetery67:22there’s a little brown top so you think67:26you have a West Point case there so his67:31original lie on the second goes like67:34this and sickles is supposed to be in67:37the farthest left it kind of goes down67:39to Little Round Top that’s what he67:41thinks is is happening and then early in67:45the afternoon what does he find out cuz67:47happened what what is sickles done so67:51all the little kids work advance here’s67:53the peach orchard which is higher than67:56so sickles has just taken his his core67:59this is the Emmitsburg Road coming into68:02town he’s taking his core he’s put it68:04one division there and then the other68:06one my map is so bad it comes down to68:09Devil’s Den which he will see and he68:11didn’t what did he tell me about this68:16nothing did not tell me he did this so68:21now the Union line just stops right here68:23and what’s the weakness of sickles isn’t68:27that sickles the point is that this is68:28higher than this ground and sickles is68:30sensitive about that because of what68:32happened to in the Chancellorsville and68:33when you go there you’ll see that the68:35peach orchard is higher than this but68:37when he moves out there what is the68:41defensive problem with his being out68:43there along the Emmitsburg Road you can68:45just get cut off this flank was in the68:48air this life is in the air he’s just68:50floating out there all by himself with68:52his ten thousand men and so needs68:56what’s needs reaction to this what is68:58possible reactions to this what could he69:01do when he finds out this is HAP I don’t69:03mean he cursed he cursed a lot but Mead69:05Mead had a very rich vocabulary hubbub69:08vulgar isms and blasphemies that he69:12would deploy at the drop of a hat but69:13apart from that what what are the what69:17could he do here okay darn it sickles69:20has gone out there golly69:23no oh fudge he’s not worried supposed to69:26be he tried he thought about but yeah he69:33went out and looked69:34why can’t he order him back because this69:36started fighting the Confederates are69:38showing that’s right the Confederates69:40are showing up so yes he does he pulls69:48in troops from two other Corps to try to69:50shore up this this weak line and69:53somebody made the semi dismissive69:57comment Justin I don’t know who did that69:59what me did was move people around and70:01he gets a lot of points for that that is70:04essentially what he does his move people70:06around he moves them around so that his70:09life is strongest at the point of70:11greatest danger he moves them from culty70:15virtually strips everybody from our far70:17right CH site and moves them down here70:21so there’s hardly anybody left up there70:23anyways other people it’s all about70:25supporting his left flank70:27which is in real danger throughout the70:30fighting on the second and he uses these70:33inferior lines very well so he doesn’t70:35good he does a very good job of that but70:38that would be something you’d have to be70:42a really bad officer not to know how to70:45use interior lines because that’s one of70:47the things that everybody knew I mean70:49that’s a huge advantage everybody70:51nobody’s but still let’s give him points70:52for that he did a good job of that what70:56else did we do that we find that70:58especially impressive to us I mean I71:00could never understand why sequels who71:02went what why did sickles go out there I71:05could not Michelle wants to know why I71:09have chalk all over my pants and why71:11sickles went out from his line on71:13Cemetery Ridge why did he do that and71:16somebody but not you Jim I don’t want71:19you to answer this I want somebody else71:21to answer tab and Chancellor bill yeah71:23higher position those order to get it up71:25called Hazel Grove yes and what happened71:28when he gave it up that thing the United71:31States positive battle that’s right71:33other than that nothing bad happened71:35done canary so was so it’s all about71:39Chancellorsville it’s all about71:41Chancellorsville what does I mean he71:43just says and he told Henry hunt who’s71:46the union artillerist our chief of71:48artillery I can defend better from that71:50high ground than I can from back here71:53but the fallacy in that is have enough71:55men to make a line that makes sense by71:59going out to the peach orchard and72:00defending that high ground so that’s a72:04good argument in theory but on the72:06ground it doesn’t stand up all those72:09sickles dependent and sickles said What72:12did he say his move did retrospectively72:16when they’re arguing about who’s his72:18arguments what the caused me to send72:23reinforcements sooner which was kind of72:26again for to it what did it do with the72:27Confederates according to sickles72:30anybody picked up on that yeah and get72:33like saved the Union mind because the72:35killer would have gotten around their72:36flank because they were throwing dirt72:38around hops so the confederation said72:40attacked him up in the peach orchard and72:42that cave it’s almost like a delaying72:44action made them focus there and they72:47broke a lot of their strength trying to72:50carry this ground that sickles took up72:52and by the time they over ran the peach72:54orchard and wheat field they ran up72:57against Union lines that by that point72:59we’re able to hold on the high ground so73:01he argues it saved the battle and his73:04critics said it came this close to73:06undoing the army you idiot political73:11craven political Tammany Hall tool you73:14almost lost the battle by what you did73:17in his responses no that’s exactly wrong73:19by moving out there I made Longstreet73:22deployed farther away than he would have73:24and he broke himself on my line which73:27was farther to the West than it would73:29otherwise yes I would I wouldn’t part of73:35this because he was and no one else was73:44yes and so there was already a lot of73:46bad baggage to begin with and so there73:49was no trust there’s no respect and so I73:52don’t73:52I wonder if sickle would have made the73:55same decisions to disobey the orders had73:57they actually gotten along if he made he73:59had gotten along right regardless the74:01chance or a hooker had given him the74:02orders or someone that he got along with74:04him given the orders I think that I74:07think there’s no way we can let him off74:10the hook for not telling his army74:12commander what he was doing I mean you74:13just can’t do that you can’t move an74:15entire infantry Corps out of where74:19you’re ordered to be without letting74:21your commander know what you’re doing so74:23I don’t think we can let him off the74:24hook there but I do think he is it’s74:27it’s understandable because he is an74:29almost complete outsider in the high74:32command but not only because he got74:34along with hooker who was a West pointer74:36but because he is he’s a politician he’s74:38not a West pointer he has this very74:40clouded and controversial and notorious74:44history that he brought with him as well74:47and was not considered the gentleman and74:49was not coming he just doesn’t fit in it74:50doesn’t fit in at all with this in the74:53culture of the Army of the Potomac74:55but even saying all of that he’s still a74:58soldier and a subordinate and you just75:01can’t do that even if it’s the right75:03move if he had told me initially that75:06meat cooks that okay you go there and75:08we’ll do this in this and this as we set75:10up the line the Marines I’m sure are75:12going to talk to you about that line the75:15line in a number of places that hooker75:17that sickles put together didn’t have75:19enough infantry to make an infantry line75:21there are lots of places where you had75:22artillery and in the Civil War you can’t75:26have artillery all by itself it can’t be75:28by itself because it’s absolutely75:30vulnerable to infantry if it’s all by75:32itself so it was a terrible line didn’t75:34have enough men to do that it’s on the75:37other hand it took the Confederates a75:40lot of casualties to get75:41sicles line so and it’s impossible to75:46decide which of them is absolutely right75:48or absolutely wrong but I don’t think75:52it’s impossible to decide that he can’t75:55have a principal subordinate who is75:57freelances this way in a situation like76:00that but I but I want somebody to argue76:02with me if you think that that if there76:04are circumstances when you should have a76:05subordinate do that when it makes sense76:08right poor hands wet up let’s go isn’t76:10that the way that lead kind of ran76:12things right I mean to a certain extent76:14certainly not to to the point of76:16insubordination but he didn’t he push76:19down certain decision-making power and76:21say if you get to a point in the battle76:22and I’m not there and there’s a decision76:25to be made you make it and you become76:27the aggressor and so it seems like if76:29sickles had been in Lee’s army Lee might76:32have almost praised him for taking that76:35kind of an initiative I mean at what76:38point is an insubordination and at what76:40point is it just taking the initiative76:42and taking higher ground that you see is76:43better it’s that the problem with taking76:47the higher ground I think I think that’s76:49a great way to put it I think there76:50would be much more leeway in Lee’s army76:52than in the Union Army to do that but76:54the problem with the action is that he76:56doesn’t improve the army situation there76:59he creates this salient where he is hope77:01or is now completely vulnerable and77:04unless people do other things to rectify77:07that situation he’s he’s put at risk77:10basically 1/5 of the army here so I77:13think that’s his problem it’s it’s not77:15as if he’s pushing and aggressive he’s77:17not going after the Confederates here77:19he’s just funding the defensive77:20alignment but I think your point about77:23whether this kind of behavior at least77:26to a degree would be more acceptable in77:28Lee’s army I think the answer is yes to77:30that how can you explain good then we77:33didn’t let Longstreet or Hood go around77:36the flank in us exactly Lee Lee’s not77:38part of that equation77:39that’s Longstreet being a bad77:41subordinate again in my view hood should77:43have been allowed to do that Lee would77:45have allowed to do that because Lee had77:48allowed Longstreet to do77:50at Manassas he had allowed Jackson to do77:52it at Chancellorsville you get to the77:53ground and you see that the situation is77:55different and you know something that I77:58don’t know then you’re allowed to adjust78:01the circumstances on the ground and78:02that’s what hood was asking to do78:04it’s Longstreet who said no General Lee78:07told us to do it this way and we can’t78:09change General Lee’s orders78:10well Longstreet knew that wasn’t true78:12because Longstreet had changed these78:14orders at different points because all78:16of that on Longstreet I put 100% of that78:19on Longstreet because Lydia is way back78:21up by Lee has no idea what’s going on78:23and they’re not communicating with Lee78:26Longstreet is just saying Lee would not78:28allow that and so we can’t do that78:34getting back to me so the part of waters78:37kind of imposing your will of the enemy78:39was there ever a time that the Meade78:41attempted to do that because I feel like78:43he was just reacting a large part this78:45is all reactive yes right and so that78:49brings us to the next lead question and78:51Mary I saw your hand go up I’ll come78:53here in just a minute78:53what where is Meade’s opportunity to78:56impose his will on the army Northern78:58Virginia does he have any option79:06as as he’s watching the detritus of the79:10picket Pettigrew assault in front of him79:14it seems and when he has the sixth core79:17right behind him which is the biggest79:19core in the army the Potomac and it79:20hasn’t fought yet it seems like there’s79:23an option there for him to do something79:25I saw other hands go up too is that what79:29everyone was going to say now what’s the79:32counter-argument to that why what would79:37prevent his doing that give us some79:39factors late Brian it’s late is it79:43almost dark what time’s it get dark in79:47Gettysburg Pennsylvania in July of 186379:53what isn’t there in the summer of 186379:57the reason daylight savings time gets79:59dark around 8 by 8 o’clock80:02through the guard so imagine you’re in80:05Arizona and that’s what time is like in80:08Pennsylvania what and what time in the80:11afternoon is Pickett’s charge over with80:14about four we’ve got four hours of80:16daylight left now that’s either a lot of80:21time or not much time to move 15,000 men80:24around and get them to do something it80:26takes a long time to move a lot of men80:28around and get them in position to do80:30something why else might he not have80:36done anything here yeah80:43the tonier voice is so you’re I mean80:46your heart is not in that and another80:48thing maybe this and that and you know I80:50might have said you have like that or80:51yeah it seems like after a victory like80:54that put yourself in need skin what’s80:58going through your head right now81:00they’re retreating81:02I’m sorry go ahead here make your point81:04before I thought you also or I my81:07impression from the reading81:08that he was still worried that the81:10Confederates might recruit that they81:12weren’t done he’d seen so much success81:15letting them mess up on their own behalf81:17that I think that probably gave him the81:20confidence to just hang on the defense81:22even let him attack again right Scott81:25well the if I was him I would have felt81:30like we won this battle and I don’t want81:33to risk anything we would have exhaled81:34and thought wow but the big argument in81:38the essay I believe is that like in all81:41this repositioning everything every81:43other chorus had gotten like so mixed up81:45and everything was just kind of they81:48were this defensive position and it was81:51all patchwork and to Hancock was wounded81:54and if the reason three courts I think81:57it said yeah had all been badly wounded81:59and to try to regroup and get people82:02where they needed to be deleted charge82:04would have been very difficult and I82:08think your point about me he’s really82:10new on the scenes this is Earth’s huge82:12battle he’s in charge of the entire army82:13to see success and then say okay and now82:16I’m going to go82:17the Confederates firm and the you know82:21leadership styles stuff it seems like82:23that would be a big stretch for Emily at82:26this point yeah I personally think82:30that’s a lot of what’s going on but just82:33flip this the scenarios though can you82:35imagine that Lee would let an82:38opportunity like that go by I really82:41can’t imagine that I think he would have82:43put something together and tried to do82:45something – because it’s chaotic I mean82:48it wait82:49how many we’ve been I can’t remember I82:51know I asked him how many of you been to82:52Gettysburg how many they’ve stood on82:53Cemetery Ridge and looked I mean you82:56know what that Vista is like and to see82:58nothing but defeat and chaos on the part83:03of your opponent as far as you can see83:07in both directions in front of your line83:08I mean that is something Porter83:12Alexander he talks about the Union83:14experience of Chancellorsville when they83:16started to retreat from the clearing of83:19Chancellorsville and Alexander hurried83:21his guns his battalions of artillery83:23down into position to where they could83:26fire into this is he put a defenseless83:29mass of retreating man he said that’s83:31the part of a battle that can be83:33denominated pie that’s what you wait for83:36that’s what you dream up and then you83:38just inflict the greatest possible83:41damage at that point and that’s not83:43happening in the wake of the picot83:45Pettigrew assault it’s not at all what83:49about over the next several days what83:52what happens over the next one what is83:54Lee what date is Lee retreat the port83:59same day Vicksburg surrenders God is on84:03the side of the United States is what84:05the people in the United States decide84:07it’s the fourth of July and we’ve won84:09two big victories so Lee hands for the84:12Potomac84:13what is he fine84:18he’s retreating in this gigantic84:21rainstorm the rivers up and he can’t get84:25across how many days before he can get84:29across and ten days he can’t get across84:36and how much fighting takes place in84:39those ten days84:42no it’s God but but that’s probably good84:46for the Union because at least the way84:49that Alexander described it they’ve84:51become so entrenched in that defensive84:53position even though that their backs84:55are to the river into the wall that they84:58were like hoping for a battle at that85:00point they were they were I’ll just ask85:04you to flip this around again the85:05Federals are hunkered down along the85:07Potomac they’re about forty-five85:08thousand of them and there are 80,00085:13Confederates who are coming after them85:15and they want the Confederates to attack85:18I think the can think it’s just it’s85:20just an interesting contrast in mindsets85:25or cultures of command or whatever you85:28want to call it it’s a very striking85:30contrast it really is it’s I mean Lee is85:36encumbered by these huge trains of85:38wounded man I’m trains wagon trains they85:40call them trains his train stretched85:43total supplies and wounded he has more85:49than 40 miles of trains on different85:52roads heading for the Potomac forty85:54miles as he leaves the battlefield that85:57seems like a pretty vulnerable target86:00yeah I’m shocked even if the union’s86:03head and kind of surrounded them or86:05Indian just lightly engaged you have86:08kept them from crossed they can’t cross86:09if they’re engaged wait yeah they’re not86:12even pressing all-out attack but just no86:13need to harass and then definitely half86:16of them yeah but they can’t cross if86:18they’re under fire right and in the end86:20Lee gets across in one night crosses his86:23army in one night he did the same thing86:25after Antietam one night that’s86:28incredibly efficient going across the86:30Potomac there it’s I I think I think