openpolitics.com

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the Joe Rogan experience morality talk
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to me about morality or talk about why
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we can’t talk about certain things well
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while we’re what you were saying before
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about being a competitor the United
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States is competitive obviously and when
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you’re playing the ultimate game which
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is war you have to be very careful about
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what you reveal and what you don’t
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reveal and this is where the
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conversation about surprise kill vanish
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comes in because the CIA using these
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covert operations to assassinate people
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and whether or not that should be
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allowed or not allowed whether it’s good
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or bad whether it’s necessary whether
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it’s like if you want people to be safe
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over here there’s certain people you got
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to take out and sometimes you just can’t
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follow the rules and why why are we not
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supposed to know about that should we
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know about that the way the story
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started for me I’m at my house in 2009 a
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source is you know calls me up he says
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I’m on my way back from the Middle East
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gonna pop by the house and say hi he
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brings me a challenge coin that says
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Kabul Afghanistan State Department I’m
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thinking okay he is not a diplomat I
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mean he’s weapons trained at the time my
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boys were young there are lots of GI
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Joes in the garden and they had little
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weapons right and the source is showing
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them about the weapons and they’re like
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so into it cuz they know he’s military
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trained and then he says if it’s okay
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with your mom and dad I’ll show you some
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weapons the boys are like please so he
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sets up this sniper rifle in the living
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room and I live up in the hills and you
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can look across the canyon through this
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scope he set up and I can see the veins
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on a leaf
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across the canyon and I thought okay so
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now I know what he was doing in Kabul
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Afghanistan he’s taking out al Qaeda
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with this mm-hmm
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there’s another case on the ground that
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he never opens and when the boys go off
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I say to him what’s in that and he said
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he opens it up and inside there’s a
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knife and it’s serrated and I said
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what’s that for
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immediately realizing you know my
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naivete and he says to me sometimes a
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job requires quiet so why that became
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interesting
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to me was because of my own thoughts and
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perceptions about what he had told me in
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other words I could I could deal with
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him with a sniper rifle
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I could me like okay that’s what he does
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but the knife gave me pause I was like
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is he slitting someone’s throat is it in
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the ribs and I thought why is it that I
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am willing to accept sort of the
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clinical nature of of a sniper rifle but
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I can’t I’m uncomfortable with that
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close-up hand-to-hand killing and that
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led me to surprise kill vanish because
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that was the motto of the precursor
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agency of the CIA it was called the OSS
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the Office of Strategic Services their
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motto was surprise kill vanish because
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they would jump out of aircraft land
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work with their French partners and kill
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Nazis with a you know a knife to the
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throat and I thought okay that’s
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considered okay because they were Nazis
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right but we can’t we’re not supposed to
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do that anymore
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in this world we live in why and I spent
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the whole this whole book researching
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and reporting is about that sort of
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conundrum if you will that moral puzzle
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you know why do we why do we
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differentiate you know and who are they
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willing to do that to where do they draw
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that line like I’m sure you’re aware of
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the story of Jamal khashoggi the
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journalist who was assassinated by
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someone some group of people and that
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they entered into the Turkish embassy
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and they whacked him and chopped him up
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and carried him out in boxes and it’s an
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international it was a huge incident
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right this supposedly was ordered by who
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was it supposed to order by the head of
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Saudi Arabia yeah MBS Mohammed bin
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Salman I mean that’s the idea is that
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their head of state wanted him killed
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because he was a threat because he was a
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reporter because he’s writing some
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things yeah and that they this is how
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they did it yeah I mean and there’s
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that’s a great question because what
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yours
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like okay so but we all think of that as
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reprehensible right right right
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why you know cuz cuz he’s a journalist
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on our side he’s delivering information
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to people but the government of Saudi
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Arabia disagree they like that
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information is our information he’s a
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threat by releasing it yes he’s a threat
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to our livelihood yes yeah and who
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decides who’s a threat I mean a lot of
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this book is about who’s on the kill
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list right I mean there is an actual
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killers they’re always husband and the
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euphemisms involved I mean I write
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history as I said so Eisenhower called
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his assassination program health
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alteration I mean literally in the
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declassified documents the Solaris
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health all three she had a health
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alteration committee whoa Kennedy had an
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executive action committee that’s also
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cleaner all right
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guess what Reagan’s was called super
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Wonder Boy power up close pre-emptive
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neutralization preemptive neutralization
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Wow why do they keep switching the names
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for it they’re burying the information
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right and they keep switching around the
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they switch around who has authority to
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you know say yes let’s go ahead and put
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this guy on the kill list I mean that
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was fascinating I mean I interviewed a
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guy named John Rizzo who was a
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decades-long CIA attorney I was stunned
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that he was willing to talk to me and he
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explained to me how a presidential
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finding also called a memorandum of
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notification works that gives the
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president the authority to put an
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individual on the kill list that job is
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then given to the CIA’s paramilitary
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army an operator or their assassins
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because the CIA works under a code
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called title 50 of so it makes it legal
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whereas the Defense Department works
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under what’s called title 10 so in other
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words and they can’t their rules of
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engagement are totally different so the
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misnomer is like oh the SEALs killed bin
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Laden well they were seals trained but
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that was a CIA mission
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hmm because Pakistan is a sovereign
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nation and the military can’t kill
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people in countries were not at war with
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so those guys all became essentially CIA
operators for the night whoa right and
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if you look at photographs as I have
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seen you’ll notice that they have no
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markings on their outfits so that if the
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job went south it’d be like I don’t know
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who these guys are and if you look back
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at Vietnam photos of the Mac V SOG teams
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which I also write about in surprise
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kill vanish because that’s the precursor
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of that you see no markings right that
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way you can go into you can go behind
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enemy lines you can go into Laos you
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know in the Vietnam War you can go now
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you can go into Pakistan what I learned
reporting this book is we’re in a
hundred and thirty four countries doing
title 50 operations think about that
government wants that to be kept secret
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so in all those countries they’re doing
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things that don’t fall under the normal
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letter of the law not yes not under the
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rules of engagement of the military but
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the CIA works at the president’s behest
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that that was one thing that really blew
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my mind to report to research to
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understand
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I talked to forty two guys who have
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direct access to this who are in this
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world you know from the knuckle draggers
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on the ground as they call themselves to
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the lawyer at CIA senior intelligence
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staff that’s the equivalent of a general
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at the CIA
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those guys explaining to me Annie this
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is how it works you know and again to
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your question well why why does someone
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get to know that and why does the
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government want why do they allow that
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information out is super interesting and
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I believe that has to do with a certain
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climate we’re in right now about
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military might right in other words what
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the CIA does is called tercio up do it’s
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the third option you’ve got the first
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option is diplomacy second option is war
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so if diplomacy is not working
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and war is unwise you go to the third
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option which is the CIA’s paramilitary
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and they’re in a hundred and how many
country 134 do you well if you wonder
why the military budgets so big that’s
what it is folks kind of feed those
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folks what work I mean what happened and
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you as a competitor would be fascinated
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by the kind of training they do and what
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they do I mean so many of these
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infiltration techniques are
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mind-boggling you know they’ve got halo
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jumping which you know about right where
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they high altitude low opening so they
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jump out they you know freefall down
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terminal velocity pull the ripcord
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really low so they’re not detected by
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radar and then they meet up with a team
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on the ground and go do what they do
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then they also have hey-ho which is high
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altitude high opening and that way you
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can fly over airspace where we’re
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allowed and float into let’s say a
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country like Iran and land gather your
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team and do what you have to do hmm but
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like so much of what I report I get
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information like that and then I ask a
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million questions like you’ve asking me
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and it’s like can’t talk about that
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that’s classified hmm you don’t you
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you’re a journalist so you’re trying not
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to judge mm-hmm but is it your belief
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that this is a good thing for America
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meaning having a third option
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whoa I mean I write in the book that
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that’s in the prologue after I tell that
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story about the source with a knife I
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say I wanted to know in that exact
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question like is this a good thing and
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my answer at the end after it’s complex
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not to be vague but it is really complex
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is also that well if you’re gonna take
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that pole position you must accept
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rivalry right mm-hmm and also after talk
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do I think it’s a good thing after
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talking to a lot of 20-year old soldiers
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who come back from the war theater miss
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limb with intense PTSD and who
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essentially serve as cannon fodder I
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would say my opinion right for the
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Pentagon that’s the second option or the
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42 guys that I interviewed you know
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they’re like send me they are a
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professional they are Tier one operators
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they’re Green Berets they’re seals their
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Delta they retire they join the CIA yeah
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so they’re like professionals at what
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they do
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and they’re saying I want someone has to
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do this job we’ve been doing this since
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the end of World War two I want to do it
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so do I think it’s better I mean I think
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that that concept speaks to choice right
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because I’m not so sure that the 20 year
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olds know what they’re in for
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and the 40 year olds know what they’re
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in for and are willing to do it so that
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well also the difference between a
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specialized trained individual with a
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very specific task versus someone who is
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sort of following orders and at the
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front of the line yeah right I mean and
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also has a you know a lot of times I
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talk to these young kids who go to war
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and they tell me one of the fascinating
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detail is that they talk about movies
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that they see and whether it’s Saving
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Private Ryan or Black Hawk Down even
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right where the outcome is not
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necessarily great but they talk about
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the romanticization of war and of
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camaraderie and a brotherhood that comes
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from that and then they have their
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experience and some of that does give
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them that sense but not always whereas
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the operators are much more about you
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know getting the job done that’s what I
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was fascinated by I mean these guys are
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really clear they’re their competitors
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they’re like top tier competitors they
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have a job they do it they get it done
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and they ask for the next job so is the
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oversight when it comes to choosing
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whether or not this operation takes
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place or not is it
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do they have moral guidelines do they
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have ethical or moral guidelines where
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they say like this is the president is
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requesting that this person get taken
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out the Chiefs of Staff whoever it is is
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that did they have to make a an ethical
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distinction you mean or they like kill
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him nicely like don’t make it over this
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do they decide like does this make sense
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or like what if the president is like
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Rosie O’Donnell she’s been talking shit
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take her out you know
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well I mean that’s you know that’s a big
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issue but what I try to write in some
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what I try to report in surprise kill
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vanish is the idea that the people we
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take out may be our bad guys right one
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one guy write about his che guevara okay
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because che is often portrayed in the
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press as you know this amazing hero and
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that he and we you know I don’t know if
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you know but he was he was killed by the
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Bolivian Rangers but it was a CIA
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operation and I interview the man in
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charge of that operation in Surprise Cal
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vanished his name was Felix Rodriguez ok
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long-serving CIA paramilitary officer so
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but I also report why the President to
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your question wanted Che Guevara dead
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you know he was really advocating for
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nuclear war and I and I shared it yes I
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mean he spoke publicly about you know if
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if we have to have an atomic war the
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Cuban but paraphrasing the Cuban people
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will be happy to have sacrificed
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themselves that I mean che was also che
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killed anyone who betrayed him he killed
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he writes about it in his Diaries as I
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write in the book right so but on the
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morality question who decides I don’t
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have that answer but I will tell you
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what I did I went with my main source
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Billy hua who he’s a 89 now and he was
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he’s been with the CIA for 60 years
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okay I mean he went and he and I went to
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Cuba for him to do a halo jump with Che
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Guevara son so we were a guest of the
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man whose father was killed by the CIA
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okay and we had this really interesting
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discussion in the cigar club where che
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and Castro you know smoke cigars and
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plotted the downfall of the United
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States and that’s what I try to give
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readers a sense of the long lens of
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history how time changes all things and
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maybe leave with them them with this
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idea which they can come to their own
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conclusions about what you asked me of
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is it right or is it wrong because
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really what you might ask is is it
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necessary mmm right I mean I could
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moralize right wrong but it would just
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be my opinion but when you see I went
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Billy wall and I also try out travel to
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Vietnam because he was supposed to kill
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he was tasked to kill the top commander
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of the North Vietnamese Army a guy named
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general shop and law didn’t kill shop
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and we had this incredibly this terrible
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mission that went awry that I write
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about in the book in the Vietnam War so
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50 years later while and I go to visit
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the son of general giap are sitting
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there in shops home talking about these
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same issues right and my conclusion of
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that again is not is it right or wrong
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but is it necessary I mean we have these
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wars we keep having these wars is it
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necessary yeah what do you think well I
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mean my opinion is that the Defense
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Department is far too concerned with
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vast weapons systems of the future which
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is its mission statement of its science
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department and so you create what some
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at the Pentagon call a self licking ice
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cream cone or the military-industrial
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complex and there’s a lot built into
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that there’s a lot to be said about
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[Applause]